Geoffrey Hinton: Large Language Models in Medicine. They Understand and Have Empathy
· 37 min
Episode Geoffrey Hinton: Large Language Models in Medicine. They Understand and Have Empathy
This is one of the most enthralling and fun interviews I’ve ever done (in 2 decades of doing them) and I hope that you’ll find it stimulating and provocative. If you did, please share with your network.
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Recorded 4 December 2023
Transcript below with external links to relevant material along with links to the audio
ERIC TOPOL (00:00):
This is for me a real delight to have the chance to have a conversation with Geoffrey Hinton. I followed his work for years, but this is the first time we've actually had a chance to meet. And so this is for me, one of the real highlights of our Ground Truths podcast. So welcome Geoff.
GEOFFREY HINTON (00:21):
Thank you very much. It's a real opportunity for me too. You're an expert in one area. I'm an expert in another and it's great to meet up.
ERIC TOPOL (00:29):
Well, this is a real point of conversion if there ever was one. And I guess maybe I'd start off with, you've been in the news a lot lately, of course, but what piqued my interest to connect with you was your interview on 60 Minutes with Scott Pelley. You said: “An obvious area where there's huge benefits is healthcare. AI is already comparable with radiologists understanding what's going on in medical images. It's going to be very good at designing drugs. It already is designing drugs. So that's an area where it's almost entirely going to do good. I like that area.”
I love that quote Geoff, and I thought maybe we could start with that.
GEOFFREY HINTON (01:14):
Yeah. Back in 2012, one of my graduate students called George Dahl who did speech recognition in 2009, made a big difference there. Entered a competition by Merck Frost to predict how well particular chemicals would bind to something. He knew nothing about the science of it. All he had was a few thousand descriptors of each of these chemicals and 15 targets that things might bind to. And he used the same network as we used for speech recognition. So he treated the 2000 descriptors of chemicals as if they were things in a spectrogram for speech. And he won the competition. And after he'd won the competition, he wasn't allowed to collect the $20,000 prize until he told Merck how he did it. And one of their questions was, what qsar did you use? So, he said, what's qsar? Now qsar is a field, it has a journal, it's had a conference, it's been going for many years, and it's the field of quantitative structural activity relationships. And that's the field that tries to predict whether some chemical is going to bind to something. And basically he'd wiped out that field without knowing its name.
ERIC TOPOL (02:46):
Well, it's striking how healthcare, medicine, life science has had somewhat of a separate path in recent AI with transformer models and also going back of course to the phenomenal work you did with the era of bringing in deep learning and deep neural networks. But I guess what I thought I'd start with here with that healthcare may have a special edge versus its use in other areas because, of course, there's concerns which you and others have raised regarding safety, the potential, not just hallucinations and confabulation of course a better term or the negative consequences of where AI is headed. But would you say that the medical life science AlphaFold2 is another example of from your colleagues Demis Hassabis and others at Google DeepMind where this is something that has a much more optimistic look?
GEOFFREY HINTON (04:00):
Absolutely. I mean, I always pivot to medicine as an example of all the good it can do because almost everything it's going to do there is going to be good. There are some bad uses like trying to figure out who to not insure, but they're relatively limited almost certainly it's going to be extremely helpful. We're going to have a family doctor who's seen a hundred million patients and they're going to be a much better family doctor.
ERIC TOPOL (04:27):
Well, that's…
Links in the notes 14
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/Ft9ZBcqg4NiOSTvWRObOs8kXUDpWDbN1W9x3uyDNwc3oVsOCmrAlGZYItWuzOin4nLoJ4fDKd6AQifQinANRxgGp4pc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=0.18
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/uvYfxpnx7BzJuK0Nrh6bWIA8W2Bm2BFi1XFma2NzOQyj28Shkddyz6UM3uo1007FMVSxLX_uUcV0MWf4lkpCnxNAALs?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=21.18
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/iQp8ensnxx8uZFE9voyEnh-olkIGFTS9vA25YCuaKgLkrDxXoQTg6RJFa90uYAXhKS7PfP81F3etSS3jft7F0JO9vA8?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=29.16
- https://www.cbsnews.com/news/geoffrey-hinton-ai-dangers-60-minutes-transcript/
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/56VNs7t8KAtFcbw2loK6y1z6zQ4BXhKf1yIDbDbWmmlD4ONqp8dn3oMrPlOTa8XWtnBD0EhtGhE3a24dkAc-G2aPc3g?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=74.85
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/dJNZme9PxFWQ4cGFIePUIOijEUufMc29422xZo3O1SqeVjNJEDyFUSR6yltayNA4M2Mvf6FB2FD4o4LIahp9HKgql0g?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=166.2
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/9X3UISzJljszwj8yDinoluFDKWyRHM52UoXueBsdsaPJOZDuaTGXPrZUgXC2yyeswXSvgdi_j5lz2gBJx7ijrEM2Il4?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=240.16
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/rcZuGICHsH0fmKTLRBwnoNXF6ZUY5enUrG3hpRQM13onWgNPItDbmRuatnswjENAP5aKHQxps89SPpdN3ytJLXy9kyA?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=267.01
- https://arxiv.org/abs/2312.00164
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/IQrz8z-So9EX0xdt9p_RlCmamEWRLUKk_-XQ9T9IVc3JfU5GOECr8Z2vJZgtOZT09XdWwN351EFUJtkNQD0GF6bllcE?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=359.09
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/-TUrmQus35JKdKxNgL-4w6JR2Q5GK5iyBOEeFVOROdI7JNNzorNIVxrJOyrznmYLcFq_AbGwKjstYinICrzdxSJPngI?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=415.94
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/dpR7fq_Z94CW7IYoIHrqkAg17jD9-i2CHGl6Rh8cCLYPiuHlKcr568ATMp3QtfipsSqSu6siP4KtrOg4VYtzw72us1w?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=468.56
- https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/shared/KV3RW8DIdsr_bNNj4bqXo7zYQZsWSDcriqz6AD5SbWSO5dC27ayDRmxs7SDZM9B8s1Dj52iu6C_uZMsVJ16uPxnrxEk?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink&ts=542.67
- https://erictopol.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4
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