Podcasts · Become an Epic Product Engineer
The right thing before the thing right — product engineering with Wayne Allan
· 51 min · Episode 2
Episode The right thing before the thing right — product engineering with Wayne Allan
Kent talks with Wayne Allan (engineer, PM, and consultant) about product engineering in practice: why “building the thing right” only matters after you’re building the right thing, how to shorten feedback loops without six-month research theater, and why falling in love with the problem beats falling in love with your solution.
They cover scrappy validation, talking to sales and support, the Kano model, *Crossing the Chasm*, and what changes when shipping gets faster than learning.
Wayne blends delivery and product leadership—his stories range from a flagship-adjacent launch that nobody used to the everyday discipline of listening to customers without waiting two weeks for a meeting. This episode connects feedback-loop thinking (familiar from CI) to product discovery, yes-and conversations when someone is married to a feature idea, and the difference between hygiene features, performance features, and delighters when teams ship faster than users can absorb.
You’ll also hear grounded takes on when “move fast” breaks trust, how AI may reshape search-and-listing UIs, and a concrete reading list: *The Mom Test* and *Crossing the Chasm*.
Homework
• Talk to people, ask good questions, and listen—Wayne says that’s the biggest hack that’s worked in his career. • Read *The Mom Test*: ask how people solved this problem in the past instead of whether they like your idea or would use it—you get far more useful insight (Wayne ties this to caring about the problem, not your solution).
Resources
• *The Mom Test* (Rob Fitzpatrick) • *Crossing the Chasm* (Geoffrey Moore) • Thoughtworks • Wayne Allan — LinkedIn
Guest: Wayne Allan
• Company: Thoughtworks • 𝕏: @xWayfinder
Host: Kent C. Dodds
• Website: kentcdodds.com • 𝕏: @kentcdodds • GitHub: @kentcdodds • YouTube: kentcdodds-plus • Podcast: epicproduct.engineer
See on Epic Product Engineer
Links in the notes 11
- https://momtestbook.com
- https://www.harpercollins.com/products/crossing-the-chasm-3rd-edition-geoffrey-a-moore
- https://www.thoughtworks.com
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/wayneallan
- https://x.com/xWayfinder
- https://kentcdodds.com/
- https://x.com/kentcdodds
- https://github.com/kentcdodds
- https://www.youtube.com/@kentcdodds-plus
- https://epicproduct.engineer
- https://www.epicproduct.engineer/the-right-thing-before-the-thing-right-product-engineering-with-wayne-allan~g8g0r
Transcript
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