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Scaling Laws

Lawfare & University of Texas Law School

259 episodes

Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas and Senior Editor at Lawfare, dive into the intersection of AI, innovation policy, and the law through regular interviews with the folks deep in the weeds of developing, regulating, and adopting AI. They also provide regular rapid-response analysis of breaking AI governance news.

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Episodes page 1 of 6

  1. Live at Univ. of Oregon: AI and State Governments with Nik Blosser

    · 46 min

    What should a state government have to demonstrate before it asks residents to trust an AI system? In this episode of Scaling Laws, Nik Blosser, Oregon’s Chief AI Officer, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI…

  2. Live at North Dakota Law: Justice Jerod Tufte on AI in the Judiciary

    · 48 min

    Live from Grand Forks, North Dakota! Should the public be upset that courts aren’t using more AI? Justice Jerod Tufte of the North Dakota Supreme Court joins Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law…

  3. Scaling Laws Live at Nebraska Law: Matt Tokson on AI Surveillance

    · 49 min

    What happens to society, law and privacy when artificial intelligence makes it possible for police to detect nearly every observable crime? Matthew Tokson, Director of the Criminal Law Program and Associate Dean for…

  4. Hélène Landemore on Public Participation in AI Governance

    · 54 min

    Hélène Landemore, Professor of Political Science at Yale University and a fellow at Oxford’s Institute for Ethics in AI, joins Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas…

  5. Child Safety AI Policy at Scale with Vaishnavi J and Dave Willner

    · 52 min

    Dave Willner, co-founder of Zentropi, and Vaishnavi J., founder and principal of Vys, join Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a senior fellow at…

  6. Live from Columbia Law with Chloé Bakalar: What can constitutions teach us about governing AI?

    · 52 min

    Chloé Bakalar, ASI Ethics Lead at Responsible Superintelligence Institute (RESI) and a Senior Research Associate at University College London, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the…

  7. Is Meta's Oversight Board a Model for AI Governance

    · 47 min

    Kenji Yoshino, Chief Justice Earl Warren Professor of Constitutional Law at New York University School of Law and a member of Meta’s Oversight Board, joins Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law Program…

  8. Algorithmic Disgorgement with Christina Lee [Live From LawAI's Workshop on Law-Following AI]

    · 38 min

    Christina Lee, Visiting Associate Professor of Law and Privacy and Technology Law Fellow at George Washington University Law School, joins Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University…

  9. Building AI Assurance Ecosystem with Bri Treece (PACT AI) and Dr. Rob Slone (UL Solutions)

    · 50 min

    Bri Treece, Executive Director of PACT AI, and Dr. Rob Slone, Chief Scientist & Innovation Officer at UL Solutions, join Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at Texas Law and a Senior Editor at…

  10. Founders & Founders: Brandon Mitchell of WriteSea

    · 44 min

    Brandon Mitchell, founder of WriteSea, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the growing role of artificial…

  11. AI Consciousness with Anil Seth

    · 54 min

    Anil Seth, Professor of Cognitive and Computational Neuroscience and Director of the Sussex Centre for Consciousness Science at the University of Sussex, joins Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law…

  12. Matt Abrams on Trust and the Migration to the Digital Age

    · 48 min

    Matt Abrams, technologist, investor, and co-founder of $1 Billion for Trust, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the…

  13. Founders & Founders: Matthew Schwartz of Virgo

    · 42 min

    Matthew Schwartz, founder of Virgo, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss how AI is beginning to reshape…

  14. Daniel Kokotajlo on AI 2040: Plan A

    · 1 h 03 min

    Daniel Kokotajlo, former OpenAI researcher and executive director of the AI Futures Project, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at Texas Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to detail his…

  15. DZ Kalman on the Role of Faith in AI Policy

    · 50 min

    DZ Kalman, fellow at the Berkman Klein Center, research fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute, senior advisor at Sinai & Synapses, and host of Belief in the Future, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at…

  16. Founders & Founders: Laura Davis of USLege

    · 42 min

    Laura Davis, founder of USLege, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to dive into how USLege is leveraging AI to transform the…

  17. Google's Kent Walker on Regulating Frontier AI

    · 27 min

    Kent Walker, President of Global Affairs at Google and Alphabet, joins Kevin to discuss Google's proposal for a two-pronged approach to AI governance: a Frontier AI Regulatory Organization, which like FINRA, would…

  18. The Politics and Politicking of AI with Assemblymember Alex Bores

    · 51 min

    Assemblymember Alex Bores ran for Congress on a platform that in many ways centered on AI policy. He therefore drew considerable support as well as substantial opposition from interest groups across the country. Though…

  19. Courtney Cox on AI in Adjudication [live from the Institute of Law & AI's Workshop on Law-Following AI]

    · 42 min

    Courtney Cox, Associate Professor of Law at Fordham Law School, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss her forthcoming…

  20. Founders & Founders: Nils Tracy of Authorship

    · 48 min

    Nils Tracy, founder of Authorship, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to detail the challenges and solutions to deploying AI…

  21. New paths to social mobility with Joe Seddon

    · 49 min

    Joe Seddon, Founder and CEO of Zero Gravity, joins Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a senior fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss AI,…

  22. Founders & Founders: Adi Tantravahi of Cofactor

    · 46 min

    Adi Tantravahi, founder of Cofactor, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to talk about how AI can help cut through the…

  23. All Things Data Centers with Andy Masley

    · 55 min

    Andy Masley joins Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a senior editor at Lawfare, and Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare and associate…

  24. Founders & Founders: Kal Clark of Zauron Labs

    · 50 min

    Kal Clark, co-founder of Zauron Labs, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explain how AI is already reducing diagnostic…

  25. Lawfare Daily: 'The Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI’—A Conversation with Cory Doctorow

    · 57 min

    Alan Rozenshtein, associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota and research director at Lawfare, and Kate Klonick, associate professor of law at St. John's University School of Law and a senior editor at…

  26. Founders & Founders: Dhruv Diddi of Solo Tech

    · 48 min

    Dhruv Diddi, founder of Solo Tech, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the emerging frontier of Physical AI. Solo…

  27. "The God Test": AI as Cosmic Reckoning, with Robert Wright

    · 53 min

    Alan Rozenshtein, Research Director at Lawfare, spoke with Robert Wright—author of Nonzero, The Moral Animal, The Evolution of God, and Why Buddhism Is True, and the writer behind the NonZero Newsletter and…

  28. Justified Posteriors join Scaling Laws: Two economists and two lawyers walk into a podcast studio

    · 1 h 17 min

    In this cross-pod episode, Alan and Kevin join Seth Benzell and Andrey Fradkin of Justified Posteriors to explore a big question: what should AI be for? The conversation begins with Pope Leo XIV’s recent encyclical.…

  29. Explain to Shane (Tews) and Scaling Laws

    · 48 min

    Shane Tews, host of Explain to Shane and nonresident senior fellow at AEI, joins Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a senior fellow at the…

  30. Lawyering on the Frontier with Janel Thamkul

    · 50 min

    Janel Thamkul, former frontier counsel team member at Anthropic, joins Kevin Frazier to discuss what it means to practice law at the frontier of AI. This episode starts with a review of Janel’s fascinating and varied…

  31. Radical Optionality: Governing Transformative AI, with Christoph Winter and Charlie Bullock

    · 43 min

    Alan Rozenshtein, Research Director at Lawfare and Visiting Senior Fellow at the Institute for Law & AI (LawAI), spoke with Christoph Winter, LawAI Founding Director and Assistant Professor of Law and AI at the…

  32. Tom Davidson on the Importance of AI Character

    · 52 min

    Tom Davidson joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss AI timelines, explosive economic growth, and the increasingly urgent…

  33. Governing the Frontier with Owen Larter of Google DeepMind

    · 46 min

    Owen Larter, Senior Director and Head of Frontier Policy and Public Affairs at Google DeepMind, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare,…

  34. Inside the Fight to Detect and Govern Synthetic Abuse with Melissa Hutchins of Certifi AI

    · 1 h 02 min

    Melissa Hutchins, founder and CEO of Certifi AI, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the rise of deepfakes,…

  35. HAGS (with AI): How AI Tools Are Shaping Education with Adeel Khan and Ryan Trattner

    · 50 min

    Adeel Khan of MagicSchool AI and Ryan Trattner of StudyFetch join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the rapid integration of…

  36. The Politics of Data Centers with VA Delegate John McAuliff

    · 48 min

    John McAuliff, a Delegate in the Viriginia House of Delegates, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program and a Senior Fellow with the Abundance Institute, to discuss the ongoing debates around…

  37. Let's Do the Science! Talking Algorithms with Cathy O'Neill

    · 49 min

    Cathy O’Neil, CEO of ORCAA and author of Weapons of Math Destruction and The Shame Machine, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to…

  38. Escaping One-Size-Fits-All AI Policy with Sean Perryman

    · 41 min

    Sean Perryman, AI policy lead at Uber and lecturer on AI Governance and Ethics at Vanderbilt Law School, joins Kevin Frazier, the Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law…

  39. Forecasting AI's Impact on the Economy with Deger Turan, CEO of Metaculus

    · 52 min

    Deger Turan, CEO of Metaculus, joins Kevin Frazier to unpack new forecasts on how AI could reshape the labor market over the next decade. The conversation centers on a striking divergence between Metaculus forecasts…

  40. Rapid Response: An "FDA for AI" at the White House?, with Dean Ball

    · 33 min

    Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor…

  41. Lawfare Daily: Why AI Won’t Revolutionize Law (At Least Not Yet), with Arvind Narayanan and Justin Curl

    · 44 min

    Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, speaks with Justin Curl, a third-year J.D. candidate at Harvard Law School, and Arvind Narayanan, professor of computer science at Princeton University and director of…

  42. An EU-perspective on America’s Approach to AI with Marietje Schaake

    · 45 min

    In this episode of Scaling Laws, Kate Klonick, Associate Professor of Law at St. John’s University and a fellow at the Brookings Institution, and Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the…

  43. Eliminating Barriers to AI Adoption with Clarion AI's Bennett Borden

    · 50 min

    Bennett Borden, Founder and CEO of Clarion AI Partners, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at UT and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss AI adoption as well as the future of the…

  44. Facts & Myths About AI's Energy Usage with Gavin McCormick

    · 50 min

    In this episode of Scaling Laws, we explore how the "black box" of global greenhouse gas emissions is being cracked open by artificial intelligence and satellite imagery. Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation…

  45. AI as Abnormal Technology? Scott Sullivan Analyzes AI in the Military Domain

    · 45 min

    Scott Sullivan, professor of law at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and a leading contributor to the Manual on International Law Applicable to Artificial Intelligence in Warfare, joins Kevin Frazier, AI…

  46. Lawfare Daily: Talking About Sam Altman with Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz

    · 50 min

    Senior Editor Kate Klonick interviews reporters Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz on their recent article in the New Yorker, titled “Sam Altman May Control Our Future—Can He Be Trusted?” In their 16,000-word piece,…

  47. Why AI Needs Independent Auditors, with Miles Brundage

    · 53 min

    Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Miles Brundage, founding executive director of the AI Verification and Evaluation Research Institute (AVERI) and former senior advisor for AGI readiness at…

  48. Productivity Boom? Labor Shock? Google's Chief Economist on AI

    · 51 min

    Fabien Curto Millet, Chief Economist at Google, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, and Alan Rozenshtein,…

  49. Abundance & AI? Nicholas Bagley Explains

    · 44 min

    Nicholas Bagley, Professor of Law at Michigan Law, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, for a live…

  50. How To Use, Govern, And Lead On AI? Rep. Begich Points The Path Forward

    · 46 min

    Representative Nick Begich, Alaska's at-large member of Congress, joins Kevin Frazier, Director the the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance…

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