Podcasts · Think Like A Game Designer
Elizabeth Hargrave — Distilling Wingspan Pocket, AI Ethics in Tabletop, and Building Equity for Designers (#112)
· 1 h 00 min
Episode Elizabeth Hargrave — Distilling Wingspan Pocket, AI Ethics in Tabletop, and Building Equity for Designers (#112)
About Elizabeth Hargrave
Elizabeth Hargrave is an award-winning board game designer best known for her runaway smash hit Wingspan, which won the Kennerspiel des Jahres in 2019 and has sold over two million copies worldwide. Her diverse body of work, including Tussie-Mussie, Mariposas, The Fox Experiment, Undergrove, and Sanibel, explores rich corners of the natural world. Elizabeth recently released Wingspan Pocket, an absolute masterclass in distilling the core of Wingspan into an accessible, 30-minute, small-box game.
Beyond design, she is a co-founder of the Tabletop Game Designers Association (TTGDA), where she champions a games industry that embraces diverse voices and respects the labor, creativity, and intellectual property of designers. In this returning episode, Elizabeth and I break down the mechanics of condensing big games into small boxes, the mission behind the TTGDA, and an honest, nuanced debate about generative AI, human intent, and the ethics of art.
Connect with Elizabeth:
* Elizabeth’s Website
* Wingspan Pocket
* bluesky: @elizhargrave
Ah-ha! Justin’s Takeaways
* Don’t Fall Asleep at the Wheel with AI: As machine tools get faster and more accurate, there’s a real danger of falling asleep at the wheel. Even if a model seems 95% or 99% reliable, never trust the machine over real human playtesting and lived player experience. Stay actively engaged in your process, verify your data, and remember that an algorithm can never replace the authentic human feedback loop.
* Elegance is Deep Decisions with Fewer Rules: True game design elegance comes from the depth of player decisions while drastically stripping back the rules and components. Wingspan Pocket is a perfect execution of this exact principle. By shrinking setup friction and focusing on pure decision-making, it proves you don’t need a massive box or tons of tokens to deliver a rich, weighty experience.
* Contract Details Matter (Even for Pros): Every single detail in a publisher contract matters, and you should never just blindly sign away your hard work. Look, I literally went to law school before I became a full-time game designer, and I still hire a lawyer to review my contracts! That’s why the work Elizabeth is doing with the TTGDA is so vital—giving emerging designers the tools and guidance they need to negotiate better deals.
Show Notes
“What would (Wingspan) look like to have a smaller version a more accessible version?” (00:05:40)
Mass market retail doesn’t always require dumbing down your initial design. Wingspan proved that mainstream audiences at Target were eager to embrace a heavier hobby game, and iterating a pocket-sized, highly accessible version opens up a massive second wave of players who want that same engine-building magic without the setup footprint or intimidation factor.
“But the actual ideas I don’t want to outsource. There’s a thing I’m trying to say.” (00:32:00)
Elizabeth hits the philosophical heart of why we design games. Even as technology evolves to automate statistics, spreadsheets, or playtest simulations, the fundamental creative spark, the specific human perspective you want to express about the world, cannot be outsourced to an algorithm. Games matter because they connect one person’s lived experience to another’s around the table.
“We put out a little position paper recently. When you talk about games, don’t just say who it’s published by, name the designer.” (00:54:40)
How the industry uses language dictates how it values creators. Shifting public habits from “published by X” to prominently crediting the individual designer isn’t just about ego; it treats game design with the exact same authorial respect we give to novelists, directors, and playwrights. Normalizing designer attribution builds long-term equity for every creator in the space.
“Because I feel like that’s there’s a whisper network. You hear about publishers that you don’t wanna work with, but if you’re a brand new designer and you don’t…
Links in the notes 4
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