# Tom Haberstroh on Cooper Flagg Questions, Pelicans Shocking Trade, NBA Nepotism

An episode of [The Right Time with Bomani Jones](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/982639043), 27 Jun 2025, 1 h 05 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/370fc844-36bd-4f61-8b8f-b4bb010de39a/f64db35e-a8a2-4f72-b40d-b4bb01244eec/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=919a7cbe-003c-4146-b592-b4bb010de3a5

On today's episode of The Right Time, Bomani Jones is joined by Tom Haberstroh of Yahoo Sports to discuss the 2025 NBA Draft. The show begins with Tom assessing Cooper Flagg as a prospect (1:54) and why he compares to Kevin Garnett (4:02). They move onto criticizing the New Orleans Pelicans trade (15:30), if "Chinese Jokic" could dominate the NBA (23:56) and UNC's struggles with sending impact players to the league (28:05). After the break, Tom shares why Wake Forest actually has the highest hit rate for quality NBA talent (35:45) and why selecting a player whose dad played in the NBA often works out (40:33). Bo and Tom round out the show by ridiculing the younger generation of basketball players for lacking personality (52:54) and if we collectively forgot to hate on Cooper Flagg for going to Duke. (1:01:46) . . . Subscribe to Supercast for Ad-Free Episodes: https://righttime.supercast.com/ Subscribe to The Right Time with Bomani Jones on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts and follow the show on Instagram, Twitter, and Tik Tok for all the best moments from the show. Download Full Podcast Here: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6N7fDvgNz2EPDIOm49aj7M?si=FCb5EzTyTYuIy9-fWs4rQA&nd=1&utm_source=hoobe&utm_medium=social Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-right-time-with-bomani-jones/id982639043?utm_source=hoobe&utm_medium=social Follow The Right Time with Bomani Jones on Social Media: http://lnk.to/therighttime Support the Show: Go to zbiotics.com/BOMANI to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use BOMANI at checkout. Download Cash App Today: https://capl.onelink.me/vFut/icdnkphp #CashAppPod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time, a wave original.
[0:09] Speaker 1: My name is Beaumont Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
[0:11] Speaker 1: get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like,
[0:15] Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
[0:18] Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
[0:20] Speaker 1: a hater. It is Tom Havistro Friday. Tom Havistro of tomthefinder.com.
[0:26] Speaker 1: What's going on, sir?
[0:27] Speaker 2: What's happening, Beaumont? Good to be here.
[0:30] Speaker 1: All right, man. We got a lot going on. Tom
[0:32] Speaker 1: is one of our guests who also likes to dabble
[0:36] Speaker 1: in producing his own shit. So he sent us a
[0:38] Speaker 1: couple of articles that are actually interesting and worth discussing. Therefore,
[0:41] Speaker 1: we will do it. I got to put you on
[0:43] Speaker 1: the list. You're on there with Lefkoe, who shows up
[0:45] Speaker 1: with his own questions, and Taylor Rooks, who's never found
[0:48] Speaker 1: an interview of her that she could not turn into
[0:50] Speaker 1: an interview of you. That's high territory that you're in there.
[0:54] Speaker 2: Is that a backhanded compliment? Is that I'm producing your show?
[0:57] Speaker 1: No, no, it is not. No, here's the thing. It
[1:01] Speaker 1: would be backhanded if the stuff wasn't good. Instead, it's
[1:06] Speaker 1: you earning your keep. You know what I'm saying? Like,
[1:08] Speaker 1: why make this difficult when I have... Because, you know,
[1:11] Speaker 1: normally you'll hit a guest up. Is there anything you'd
[1:12] Speaker 1: like to talk about? You're just like, why wait? And
[1:14] Speaker 1: it was good stuff.
[1:16] Speaker 2: Yeah. That story I wrote for Yahoo, and we'll get
[1:19] Speaker 2: into it later, I think it has a lot of
[1:22] Speaker 2: implications not just in sports but it you know in
[1:24] Speaker 2: economics and in all sorts of uh areas and i
[1:27] Speaker 2: feel like this is kind of in our wheelhouse um
[1:31] Speaker 2: just talking from the framework of what works and what
[1:33] Speaker 2: doesn't and roi on hires and all this stuff so
[1:37] Speaker 2: uh i can't wait to talk about with that with
[1:38] Speaker 2: you but man last night's nba draft i know people
[1:42] Speaker 2: didn't realize like a lot of these names here but
[1:46] Speaker 2: there's so many funny things that happened in last night's
[1:48] Speaker 2: draft that i can't wait to talk about with.
[1:51] Speaker 1: So first thing, where are you on Cooper flag? Because
[1:59] Speaker 1: What keeps me in it with Flagg is the way
[2:01] Speaker 1: that people talked about him from the Olympics in 2024
[2:04] Speaker 1: and the way they said he really held his own
[2:06] Speaker 1: in those practices. I see a very good player in college.
[2:11] Speaker 1: I don't see the player that I hear people talk about.
[2:14] Speaker 1: He does not jump off the screen to me in
[2:16] Speaker 1: that way, but everybody else seems to see it. And
[2:19] Speaker 1: if you tell me that he did it against the best,
[2:21] Speaker 1: now you've got me.
[2:23] Speaker 3: So where are you?
[2:24] Speaker 2: I love this kid. And I say kid because he's
[2:27] Speaker 2: 18 years old and he's going to be 18 years
[2:30] Speaker 2: old when he starts his NBA career and debuts for
[2:33] Speaker 2: the Dallas Mavericks. You have to understand this guy should
[2:37] Speaker 2: be coming out of high school. He's going to be
[2:39] Speaker 2: debuting as an 18-year-old a year and a half younger
[2:43] Speaker 2: than what KG was when he came out of high school.
[2:46] Speaker 2: So you have to kind of start re-engineering Cooper Flagg
[2:50] Speaker 2: as a prospect and remember that he classed up so
[2:53] Speaker 2: that he could get into this draft class, and he
[2:55] Speaker 2: should be coming out of high school. So first things first,
[2:58] Speaker 2: he started at Duke as a 17-year-old. So when you're
[3:01] Speaker 2: the best college basketball player, when you started as a 17-year-old,
[3:04] Speaker 2: you're special. And then there isn't really a weakness in
[3:08] Speaker 2: his game. People thought, oh, that jumper, I'm not so
[3:11] Speaker 2: sure about that jumper. He was one of the best
[3:14] Speaker 2: three-point shooters in America in the second half of last season.
[3:18] Speaker 2: He's got handle. He's got toughness. He plays defense. He
[3:21] Speaker 2: can block shots. He can guard on the perimeter. He's
[3:23] Speaker 2: a great attacker downhill. I went to one of his games.
[3:27] Speaker 2: They're playing Pitt. And they showed these highlights over and
[3:30] Speaker 2: over last night in the draft. And Jay Billis was like, dude,
[3:34] Speaker 2: that game, there was highlights all over the place. I
[3:37] Speaker 2: was there for that because I was doing this charity event.
[3:39] Speaker 2: It was... Like you could feel this guy. Like you
[3:42] Speaker 2: could feel him from the stands. And I know Cameron
[3:44] Speaker 2: Indore is a little matchbox there. But you could feel
[3:47] Speaker 2: his presence. Every time he jumped from the floor, the
[3:50] Speaker 2: gym kind of bounced because he plays with that kind
[3:53] Speaker 2: of power. And he was by far the best player
[3:56] Speaker 2: on the floor in that game. And he dunked all
[3:58] Speaker 2: over one of those pit bid guys in the fast break.
[4:00] Speaker 2: And he's just fearless. I mentioned KG earlier. I think
[4:03] Speaker 2: if he hits his ceiling, he's KG. He hits his ceiling,
[4:09] Speaker 2: he's KG. If he's the big ticket, this guy's the
[4:11] Speaker 2: big login. Like that's this generation's KG if he hits
[4:15] Speaker 2: his highs. Because I think he's got the full skill
[4:17] Speaker 2: set like KG does, the competitiveness, the two-way play, the
[4:21] Speaker 2: ability to play point forward. And I just think he
[4:24] Speaker 2: is the real deal. In Dallas though, I don't love
[4:28] Speaker 2: the fit, the expectations for him there. And it just
[4:30] Speaker 2: doesn't feel like the right situation for him, but I
[4:33] Speaker 2: love him as a prospect.
[4:34] Speaker 1: All right, so the thing for me is, KG was
[4:39] Speaker 1: perhaps at a point the best defensive player in the NBA.
[4:43] Speaker 1: Consummate crazy person leader, right? It works in its own
[4:48] Speaker 1: absolutely insane way. The counterpoint on KG or where we
[4:52] Speaker 1: started hitting KG with some demerits. Again, a guy who
[4:55] Speaker 1: was up there with potentially the best player in the
[4:57] Speaker 1: NBA at a point. Also, Game seven against Sacramento in
[5:03] Speaker 1: 04 notwithstanding, not the dude that you want.
[5:06] Speaker 3: To bring it home with the ball at the end.
[5:08] Speaker 1: And I think that people look at Flagg as a
[5:10] Speaker 1: guy that you want to be that guy who can
[5:12] Speaker 1: do that. Like, is that something that you can see
[5:14] Speaker 1: for him? Yeah. Yeah.
[5:16] Speaker 2: It wasn't a good look at the end of the
[5:17] Speaker 2: game in the final four there to end his college career.
[5:21] Speaker 1: He fell down again because he seemed to keep falling down.
[5:23] Speaker 1: That's the third time he fell down.
[5:26] Speaker 2: Well, he was wearing Nikes, right? And he's a New
[5:28] Speaker 2: Balance guy. So maybe if you make that switch at
[5:30] Speaker 2: the next level, we'll fix that problem. I think he's great.
[5:36] Speaker 2: In this season, his advanced stats are off the charts
[5:40] Speaker 2: as a 17-year-old coming in and now an 18-year-old. You
[5:43] Speaker 2: just don't see that from a guy that young. And
[5:45] Speaker 2: so when you're projecting him in four years, remember KG,
[5:48] Speaker 2: his rookie season when he was playing with Googs and
[5:51] Speaker 2: Terry Porter. I work with Terry Porter, so I got
[5:53] Speaker 2: to ask TP what it was like to be there
[5:55] Speaker 2: with a rookie KG. Took KG a couple years before
[5:59] Speaker 2: he became an all-star. This rookie year, I think he
[6:01] Speaker 2: averaged like 10-4 overall. I think the expectations for Cooper
[6:05] Speaker 2: Flagg right away is a lot higher than that. I
[6:08] Speaker 2: would pick him as the early favorite for Rookie of
[6:10] Speaker 2: the Year, but there's a lot of expectations on him.
[6:13] Speaker 2: I think in five years, he's going to be 23
[6:16] Speaker 2: years old. We're probably going to be able to evaluate
[6:19] Speaker 2: this pick or how good he is in eight years
[6:21] Speaker 2: because that's how young he is. I think that Cooper
[6:24] Speaker 2: Flagg From what everyone says is the best competitor, the leader,
[6:30] Speaker 2: everything that you want from a young player. And that
[6:33] Speaker 2: select practice that he had at Team USA, he wasn't
[6:37] Speaker 2: scared at all. Like you watch him out on the
[6:39] Speaker 2: floor and he was going at dudes. So I really,
[6:42] Speaker 2: I was expecting him to be a little shy around those.
[6:45] Speaker 2: I mean, this is LeBron. This is Steph. This is KD.
[6:48] Speaker 2: These are the greats of the greats, right? Still at
[6:51] Speaker 2: the peak of their powers. And he held his own,
[6:54] Speaker 2: more than held his own.
[6:55] Speaker 1: Who was the last number one pick to go to
[6:57] Speaker 1: a good team? Like Tim Duncan is the last one
[7:01] Speaker 1: that I can think of off the top of my head.
[7:02] Speaker 1: And yes, I know the Spurs were bad and that's
[7:05] Speaker 1: what helped them get Duncan. But that was because David
[7:07] Speaker 1: Robinson was hurt. Like as soon as David Robinson showed
[7:08] Speaker 1: back up, they were a good team.
[7:10] Speaker 2: I want to say this is the the Mavericks are
[7:12] Speaker 2: the best team to land the number one overall pick.
[7:15] Speaker 2: since Duncan like in terms of record it might even
[7:18] Speaker 2: be record wise better than Duncan because that's oh.
[7:20] Speaker 1: It has to be because they were terrible that year
[7:22] Speaker 1: before in record wise because Robinson got hurt.
[7:25] Speaker 2: I want to say if not the last 30 years
[7:28] Speaker 2: I think I think it might be the number one
[7:31] Speaker 2: uh number one pick the best record going because they
[7:34] Speaker 2: were 39 and 43 the Mavericks were and they landed
[7:36] Speaker 2: the number one overall pick and unless you traded the
[7:40] Speaker 2: number one pick or traded a pick that became the
[7:42] Speaker 2: number one pick and it jumped, it's very hard to
[7:45] Speaker 2: have a team that's basically 500 win the lottery. So
[7:49] Speaker 2: he's coming into a situation with A.D., I think he's
[7:51] Speaker 2: going to be playing a lot at the three, considering
[7:53] Speaker 2: that Nico Harrison has always talked about defense wins championships,
[7:56] Speaker 2: and he's basically over a barrel with Daniel Gafford and
[8:00] Speaker 2: Derek Lively and AD. They want to build this big team.
[8:04] Speaker 2: So Cooper Flagg is going from a lot of times
[8:06] Speaker 2: playing at the four last season, and he's going to
[8:08] Speaker 2: be 6'9 playing at the three position. He's going to
[8:10] Speaker 2: be tested a lot of nights because the NBA is
[8:12] Speaker 2: going smaller, and this Mavericks team is getting bigger. So
[8:15] Speaker 2: that's going to be a real test for him, but ultimately–
[8:18] Speaker 2: We're not going to be evaluating Cooper Flagg this upcoming season.
[8:22] Speaker 2: But I think Jason Kidd and the expectations and Nico
[8:25] Speaker 2: Harrison giving Kyrie Irving a three-year, $ 120 million extension, the
[8:32] Speaker 2: expectations are win right away. And he's a winner.
[8:34] Speaker 1: We know that.
[8:35] Speaker 2: But for an 18-year-old coming into the NBA, trying to
[8:39] Speaker 2: fill Luka Doncic's shoes, that is some expectation that we
[8:43] Speaker 2: have not put on a lot of number one overall picks.
[8:46] Speaker 1: Now, let me tell you this. Talk a little later
[8:48] Speaker 1: in the draft. I think you may know this about me,
[8:50] Speaker 1: but I am a firm supporter of the abolition of
[8:54] Speaker 1: all drafts. I think particularly in the face of salary caps,
[8:57] Speaker 1: they were unnecessary. Give teams salary slots that allowed them
[9:01] Speaker 1: to dish out more money, some more than others, if
[9:04] Speaker 1: you want to retain the redistributive qualities of it. But
[9:06] Speaker 1: in the end, I don't think the draft is necessary.
[9:08] Speaker 1: I think it keeps wages down, but it's also now
[9:11] Speaker 1: a television show, right? And at the same time, if
[9:16] Speaker 1: we are going to have it, I love watching guys
[9:19] Speaker 1: who decide that they're going to try to manipulate where
[9:21] Speaker 1: it is that they want to go through various techniques
[9:24] Speaker 1: of not working out for people, acting a donkey when
[9:26] Speaker 1: you go to the place, right? Like you think you
[9:28] Speaker 1: can make it work the way you want it to work.
[9:31] Speaker 3: Okay.
[9:31] Speaker 1: At the same time, I also love and appreciate somebody
[9:35] Speaker 1: that's like, yeah, nice try, buddy.
[9:36] Speaker 3: You're coming with us.
[9:37] Speaker 1: And that is what happened here with the curious case
[9:39] Speaker 1: of Ace Bailey that I talked to Lefkoe about on Wednesday. But,
[9:43] Speaker 1: you know, on one hand, It's hilarious that this dude
[9:48] Speaker 1: was trying to get himself to go to the Wizards.
[9:50] Speaker 1: That was the plan on purpose, is that you wanted
[9:53] Speaker 1: to go to the Wizards. Who in the what? What's
[9:57] Speaker 1: the logic here? Who's it? Because it's close to home.
[10:00] Speaker 1: What advice is it that you are receiving? That's like,
[10:03] Speaker 1: I want to go to the Wizards. But instead, Danny
[10:06] Speaker 1: Ainge was like, nice job, buddy.
[10:10] Speaker 3: Welcome to Utah.
[10:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was the other one. Ace Bailey and
[10:13] Speaker 2: then Colin Murray-Boyles was not too happy when the Raptors
[10:17] Speaker 2: picked him. He dropped a four-letter word right when he
[10:20] Speaker 2: got drafted.
[10:21] Speaker 3: He will be. Don't you worry. He will be.
[10:24] Speaker 2: He's going to be okay?
[10:26] Speaker 3: He will find a way to enjoy Toronto one way
[10:29] Speaker 3: or another. He will figure it out.
[10:32] Speaker 2: He'll be okay. He needs to talk to some of
[10:35] Speaker 2: his agents, some of his people around him about what
[10:37] Speaker 2: it's like to be an NBA player in Toronto. He'll
[10:39] Speaker 2: be okay. Salt Lake City, look, Will Hardy just got
[10:43] Speaker 2: an extension, right? He just went through like in Shawshank
[10:46] Speaker 2: Redemption when Tim Robbins is coming out of the sewer
[10:50] Speaker 2: and he's just looking up and he got his extension
[10:52] Speaker 2: because a lot of people around the league, they're afraid
[10:54] Speaker 2: to take that job. They're afraid to take that rebuilding
[10:58] Speaker 2: job because as soon as you start getting good, see it, right?
[11:01] Speaker 2: And so Will Hardy got the extension. So he came
[11:03] Speaker 2: out the other side and he's got his deal. And
[11:06] Speaker 2: now it looks like, all right, we're going to take
[11:08] Speaker 2: Ace Bailey and we're going to shoot for a huge swing.
[11:12] Speaker 2: They're going to take a huge home run swing at
[11:13] Speaker 2: Ace Bailey because you saw what he did last year.
[11:16] Speaker 2: He was a top five pick and he was on
[11:18] Speaker 2: a losing Rutgers team with Dylan Harper as a star teammate.
[11:22] Speaker 2: So this guy has not shown that he can be
[11:24] Speaker 2: a winner at the collegiate level, and it's going to
[11:27] Speaker 2: be a while. He is like a mold of clay.
[11:29] Speaker 2: This dude, Ace Bailey, looks like he should be a
[11:31] Speaker 2: lot better in terms of impact than he showed last season.
[11:35] Speaker 2: And so it's going to be a few years before
[11:37] Speaker 2: I think he can start to deliver on his promise
[11:40] Speaker 2: as being like this Tracy McGrady prototype, a Rudy Gay,
[11:44] Speaker 2: just a really tall score bucket getter in the mid-range.
[11:49] Speaker 2: The thing about the Utah Jazz, though, Bomani, is they
[11:53] Speaker 2: are one of these Missoula ball teams. They love taking
[11:57] Speaker 2: threes and they hate the mid-range. There was a lot
[11:59] Speaker 2: of games this season in which they didn't make a
[12:02] Speaker 2: basket in the mid-range area, something that never would have
[12:06] Speaker 2: ever happened five years ago. And I know we saw
[12:09] Speaker 2: the Indiana Pacers and the Oklahoma City Thunder live in
[12:11] Speaker 2: the mid-range a little bit and take that in that
[12:13] Speaker 2: dead zone, that analytics and a lot of sabermetrics folks,
[12:17] Speaker 2: MIT Sloan analytics folks. Hey, that is not a high
[12:20] Speaker 2: percentage shot. Only a few players can take that shot.
[12:23] Speaker 2: Ace Bailey has not shown that he is that guy yet.
[12:26] Speaker 2: And Will Hardy is a big believer in taking those
[12:29] Speaker 2: shots behind the three-point line. So those things that Ace
[12:32] Speaker 2: Bailey is really liking, the mid-range, those fadeaway jumpers on
[12:36] Speaker 2: the baseline, he's going to have to wean that out
[12:40] Speaker 2: of his system if he wants to play in this system.
[12:42] Speaker 1: What surprised me is that the people who have the
[12:45] Speaker 1: advanced numbers, the predictive advanced metrics about college players, and
[12:50] Speaker 1: Bailey seems to flunk those all the way across the board.
[12:53] Speaker 1: That was the part that surprised me was somebody taking
[12:55] Speaker 1: him that high. And I know, I guess, the young age...
[12:59] Speaker 1: is now the one who is making a lot of
[13:01] Speaker 1: these decisions there in Utah. But this felt like the
[13:03] Speaker 1: kind of pick the old Ainge would make in the
[13:05] Speaker 1: sense that Danny Ainge is a basketball player with a
[13:08] Speaker 1: tendency to look at guys and think about, well, what
[13:11] Speaker 1: would I do if I had to guard that guy?
[13:13] Speaker 1: And Ace Bailey strikes me as the sort of dude
[13:15] Speaker 1: that players look at and are like, oh man, I
[13:18] Speaker 1: can't do nothing with this.
[13:20] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[13:21] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[13:21] Speaker 2: Like DeMar DeRozan is... somewhere somewhere in the realm of
[13:25] Speaker 2: what you would want ace bailey to develop into right
[13:28] Speaker 2: guy who just gets to his spots and he's going
[13:30] Speaker 2: to be a terror to guard because he's just a
[13:32] Speaker 2: great shooter tough shot maker same thing with ace bailey
[13:36] Speaker 2: a thing that statistically is a huge red flag for
[13:39] Speaker 2: him is he has a really low assist rate and
[13:42] Speaker 2: a really low steal rate steal rate bomani is this
[13:46] Speaker 2: secret sauce that if you look at steal rate in
[13:48] Speaker 2: college hoops or steal rate for any level going into
[13:53] Speaker 2: the NBA, it has a crazy good predictor of your
[13:56] Speaker 2: NBA success. Like if you can get steals defensively, The
[14:00] Speaker 2: numbers say that that is a huge harbinger for success
[14:04] Speaker 2: at the next level, and you can probably wrap your
[14:06] Speaker 2: mind around why that might be the case. If you're
[14:09] Speaker 2: getting a lot of steals, A, you try hard defensively.
[14:12] Speaker 2: You're not sleeping on defense. Two, you have this great
[14:16] Speaker 2: sense of the game, basketball IQ about where the pass
[14:18] Speaker 2: is going to go, and you have this ability to
[14:20] Speaker 2: predict things. where the offense is going. And thirdly, you're physical.
[14:26] Speaker 2: A lot of guys who want to make it at
[14:28] Speaker 2: the next level, they got to play bigger. They got
[14:30] Speaker 2: to play longer. They use their wingspan in ways that
[14:33] Speaker 2: they can use to get turnovers. And steal rate is
[14:36] Speaker 2: not one of his high qualities. Just 1.4 steals every
[14:40] Speaker 2: 36 minutes. And that's something that B.J. Edgecombe does really
[14:43] Speaker 2: well And why I think Philadelphia really liked him. And
[14:46] Speaker 2: the other side is 1.1, sorry, 1.4 assists and 1.1
[14:51] Speaker 2: steals at the college level. So 1.4 assists every 36
[14:55] Speaker 2: minutes for Ace Bailey.
[14:57] Speaker 1: Yikes.
[14:58] Speaker 2: Big yikes if you want to play at the next level.
[15:00] Speaker 1: Now the counterpoint to that is Gilbert Redis' point about
[15:04] Speaker 1: his old son is we'll worry about passing later. It
[15:08] Speaker 1: feels like Ace Bailey has been told, just.
[15:10] Speaker 3: Get these shots up. This is what you're here for.
[15:14] Speaker 1: Now, I try not to get too draft nerdy in
[15:17] Speaker 1: this because I think people generally don't care. And I
[15:19] Speaker 1: do think that the super draft nerds get a little
[15:21] Speaker 1: bit too caught up in stuff like the pick swaps,
[15:25] Speaker 1: the protections, so forth and so on. But in a
[15:28] Speaker 1: world where this exists, the New Orleans Pelicans, who Joe
[15:31] Speaker 1: Dumars is now in charge. Love Joe Dumars. Joe Dumars
[15:35] Speaker 1: has a championship. He's coached very good teams. I mean,
[15:38] Speaker 1: it has been the GM for some very good teams.
[15:40] Speaker 1: They moved up 10 spots in the draft with their
[15:43] Speaker 1: second first round pick from the 23rd pick to the
[15:46] Speaker 1: 13th pick. And they traded away their first round pick
[15:49] Speaker 1: next year. But in a way that is very uncommon
[15:52] Speaker 1: in NBA trades, unprotected, which is to say no matter
[15:54] Speaker 1: where that pick lands, the Pelicans have no control over
[15:58] Speaker 1: their pick. So if the Pelicans are not doing well
[16:00] Speaker 1: next season and decide they want to go young and
[16:03] Speaker 1: get a bad record as a result, it doesn't matter.
[16:05] Speaker 1: They don't get the picks. All you guys that really
[16:08] Speaker 1: do this do exactly what Tom Haberstroh just did right
[16:11] Speaker 1: there and put his hand in his head and leaned
[16:13] Speaker 1: back and was mad frustrated by the idea that they
[16:15] Speaker 1: did it. Now, I'm going to hear your take on it,
[16:17] Speaker 1: and then I'm going to throw something out there that
[16:19] Speaker 1: I don't know if you have heard.
[16:20] Speaker 3: You go first. Okay.
[16:23] Speaker 2: I feel like David Stern tried to rise from the
[16:25] Speaker 2: grave and block this trade, just like he did way
[16:27] Speaker 2: back when Chris Paul did Lakers. Like, David Stern... would
[16:31] Speaker 2: never have let this happen because when you're looking at
[16:34] Speaker 2: the trade, the key here is that it is a
[16:37] Speaker 2: swap they can actually swap with the Milwaukee Bucks. It's
[16:42] Speaker 2: going to be the best pick between the Pelicans and
[16:45] Speaker 2: the Bucks next year, Bomani. So if the Bucks decide, hey,
[16:49] Speaker 2: we're going to blow it up, we're going in a
[16:51] Speaker 2: different direction, Giannis, we're trading Giannis, that Milwaukee Bucks pick
[16:56] Speaker 2: with no Damian Lillard next season could be extremely valuable.
[17:00] Speaker 2: And so even if it's New Orleans unprotected, I'd be like, man,
[17:03] Speaker 2: that's a tough way to move up 10 spots. But
[17:06] Speaker 2: they actually doubled their odds. The Atlanta Hawks doubled their
[17:11] Speaker 2: odds of having a great pick by having the ability
[17:14] Speaker 2: to have the most favorable pick between the Pelicans and
[17:17] Speaker 2: the Bucs. So it's not just that they got an
[17:20] Speaker 2: unprotected pick. It's that they got the ability to exchange
[17:23] Speaker 2: that if the Bucs somehow, something happens to Giannis, something
[17:26] Speaker 2: happens with Milwaukee, and they go, amen. I know that
[17:31] Speaker 2: New Orleans pick could be 10, but that Bucks pick
[17:33] Speaker 2: just won the lottery. We're going to take that. So
[17:35] Speaker 2: it's just it's basically they traded up 10 spots for
[17:39] Speaker 2: two hacks at the lottery, potentially winning the lottery.
[17:44] Speaker 1: I think that they think they being the Pelicans, that
[17:50] Speaker 1: they got.
[17:51] Speaker 3: A super duper steal. I think it was.
[17:54] Speaker 1: Derrick Queen that they took.
[17:55] Speaker 2: Derrick Queen from Maryland. Yep.
[17:56] Speaker 3: Okay.
[17:57] Speaker 1: Have you seen the quote that Kevin Willard, who now
[17:59] Speaker 1: coaches at Villanova, but coached at Maryland last year, had
[18:02] Speaker 1: about Derrick Queen?
[18:04] Speaker 2: What's the quote?
[18:05] Speaker 3: He said that he believed.
[18:07] Speaker 1: This is wild. He said that he believed that if
[18:12] Speaker 1: Derrick Queen were white and from Europe, that he would
[18:15] Speaker 1: be the number one overall pick in the draft.
[18:17] Speaker 3: Okay.
[18:18] Speaker 1: Now... I feel like it's one thing to big up
[18:23] Speaker 1: your guy. You must really, really, really believe what you
[18:27] Speaker 1: are saying or who you got if you say something
[18:31] Speaker 1: like this. Is this a possibility? Because Dumar said after
[18:34] Speaker 1: the draft, he's just like, look, man, if you see
[18:36] Speaker 1: the guy and you want the guy, you go get
[18:38] Speaker 1: the guy. He was like, we're taking two picks in
[18:40] Speaker 1: this draft.
[18:41] Speaker 3: Right.
[18:41] Speaker 1: And I agree with you. You have the possibility of
[18:43] Speaker 1: moving way up next year and all that stuff. But
[18:46] Speaker 1: he seems super duper sold on who the guy is
[18:50] Speaker 1: that they have. And if you feel sold on him and,
[18:53] Speaker 1: you know, the part that you can't predict, if you
[18:54] Speaker 1: think Zion Williams is going to give you 70 games
[18:56] Speaker 1: this year, then your pick is not going to be bad, right?
[18:59] Speaker 1: Like maybe that's what it is. I would be very
[19:01] Speaker 1: curious to know if after the draft, they told Dumars
[19:04] Speaker 1: about what you said about it actually being two chances.
[19:06] Speaker 1: And he was like, damn, why didn't y'all tell me?
[19:09] Speaker 3: I didn't know that.
[19:09] Speaker 2: Hey, come on, man. I didn't realize the Bucs was
[19:11] Speaker 2: in there, too. Y'all just said it was ours. That
[19:15] Speaker 2: might be the most valuable 2026 pick because of that
[19:19] Speaker 2: Bucs factor. Because we don't know. Giannis Antetokounmpo, even though
[19:23] Speaker 2: he has not put on the trade block, he certainly
[19:25] Speaker 2: hasn't said, I'm a Milwaukee Buc for life. So you
[19:29] Speaker 2: can talk yourself into that he's not going to be
[19:31] Speaker 2: put on the trade block, but the opposite is also true.
[19:33] Speaker 2: That it has been a long enough time for Giannis
[19:36] Speaker 2: Antetokounmpo to get out here and be like, hey, I
[19:38] Speaker 2: know all the rumors, but I'm going to be a
[19:41] Speaker 2: Wisconsinite for life. I'm here for the long haul. He
[19:43] Speaker 2: has not done that. So until that happens, maybe, maybe
[19:48] Speaker 2: this is okay. But remember, it gets worse, Bomani. They
[19:53] Speaker 2: didn't have the 23 pick coming into this about a
[19:56] Speaker 2: week ago. They traded the Indiana Pacers. They made a
[20:01] Speaker 2: trade with the Indian Pacers to get their 23rd pick
[20:04] Speaker 2: a week ago. June 17th, the Pacers wanted next year's pick,
[20:10] Speaker 2: And they got the 23 pick the New Orleans Pelicans did.
[20:14] Speaker 2: And the Pacers were like, all right, we'll get next
[20:16] Speaker 2: year's pick. We'll trade you ours this year because, you know,
[20:21] Speaker 2: how valuable could our pick next year be? And two
[20:23] Speaker 2: days later, Tyrese Halliburton tears his Achilles. So if Joe
[20:28] Speaker 2: Dumars and Troy Weaver, who's the GM underneath Joe Dumars,
[20:31] Speaker 2: had just waited a week, just waited a week, that
[20:35] Speaker 2: trade is a lot different. So the Indiana Pacers, they
[20:39] Speaker 2: got a top four protected pick next year from New Orleans.
[20:42] Speaker 2: So you could be looking at a case in which
[20:45] Speaker 2: New Orleans, in order to get Derrick Queen They traded
[20:48] Speaker 2: the number five pick and the number one pick next year.
[20:50] Speaker 2: That is best case scenario for Atlanta and Indiana. But
[20:54] Speaker 2: in New Orleans, if they just sat there, man, they
[20:57] Speaker 2: could have had that five pick or the number one pick,
[20:59] Speaker 2: what have you. If Indiana keeps that pick, it's a
[21:02] Speaker 2: whole different story. On Derrick Queen and that quote, it's
[21:04] Speaker 2: a hilarious quote. I'm not going to get into the... Look,
[21:09] Speaker 2: Derrick Queen's good, right? But you have to understand, I
[21:12] Speaker 2: mentioned Troy Weaver, Bomani.
[21:14] Speaker 1: Troy Weaver.
[21:16] Speaker 2: is a D.C. area guy. He was on the Washington
[21:18] Speaker 2: Wizards staff last year. And who is his son? Oh,
[21:23] Speaker 2: it's the Maryland grad assistant. And from what I've read,
[21:28] Speaker 2: Troy Weaver, the GM of the New Orleans Pelicans, while
[21:31] Speaker 2: he was in D.C. area, was at basically every practice
[21:34] Speaker 2: of Maryland last year because his son was on the
[21:36] Speaker 2: coaching staff. And so this isn't just a, hey, we
[21:40] Speaker 2: like this guy. It's a, I know this guy. I
[21:42] Speaker 2: saw him every day and I was at most of
[21:44] Speaker 2: his games at Maryland. And so I have already built
[21:47] Speaker 2: this relationship through my son and living in the DC area.
[21:51] Speaker 2: And so to me, it's like, they knew this when
[21:54] Speaker 2: they acquired that Indiana pick at number 23 a week ago.
[21:58] Speaker 2: They knew they wanted to get Derek queen. And they
[22:00] Speaker 2: figured if we can get the number 23, maybe we
[22:03] Speaker 2: can parlay a future first to get the 15 and
[22:05] Speaker 2: get him with that pick. And they did. I just
[22:08] Speaker 2: think that's way too much draft capital to give up
[22:10] Speaker 2: way too much downside and giving up this dude that
[22:13] Speaker 2: to me, it's like, yeah, you got to see him.
[22:16] Speaker 2: That's all good, man. But did y'all forget you're in
[22:19] Speaker 2: new Orleans? Like this dude has weight and conditioning issues.
[22:23] Speaker 2: And we saw what happened with Zion Williamson as soon
[22:25] Speaker 2: as he got to New Orleans. And now you're getting
[22:28] Speaker 2: Derek Queen. Come on, man. You got to remember where
[22:30] Speaker 2: you're at. It's in New Orleans. It's a big easy.
[22:34] Speaker 3: Come on.
[22:34] Speaker 1: Let me tell you, Zion Williamson could have been in,
[22:37] Speaker 1: I don't know, Laos. uh, Myanmar, um, all kinds of places.
[22:42] Speaker 1: He's still had same, same problems. Uh, I want to
[22:45] Speaker 1: ask you about con can nipple, but before I get there, boy,
[22:48] Speaker 1: we're going to have fun saying that name and people
[22:50] Speaker 1: are going to have a great time asking what his
[22:51] Speaker 1: middle name is. Apparently he doesn't have one or he
[22:54] Speaker 1: doesn't want to tell. I can't tell which is which, um, way.
[22:59] Speaker 2: You're saying that his middle name could start with a
[23:01] Speaker 2: certain letter.
[23:02] Speaker 1: I had a teacher in middle school whose initials were
[23:05] Speaker 1: K's across the board.
[23:08] Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
[23:09] Speaker 1: I mean, you got to think about this, man. Sometimes
[23:11] Speaker 1: people don't think about it. Case in point, Steve Kerr
[23:14] Speaker 1: has a son named Nicholas and he did not, he
[23:18] Speaker 1: didn't stress test it. And so he's Nicholas. We're all
[23:22] Speaker 1: going to call him Nicholas. It's kind of like that
[23:25] Speaker 1: time Doris Burke tried to say Knickerbocker on TV. You
[23:28] Speaker 1: can't say it slow enough. Scott Van Pelt told me.
[23:30] Speaker 1: He's like, you can't enunciate it clearly enough. It can't
[23:32] Speaker 1: be done. Now, we were going to talk about the
[23:35] Speaker 1: thing with Knipple because of the last 25 first-round picks
[23:38] Speaker 1: from Duke, I see 20% of them have gone to Charlotte,
[23:40] Speaker 1: which is very interesting because Charlotte is very much a
[23:42] Speaker 1: UNC town where they're probably still booing J.J. Redick to
[23:45] Speaker 1: this day, as I know they did for basically the
[23:48] Speaker 1: entirety of his career. But I forgot about to me,
[23:53] Speaker 1: the most interesting pick in this draft. Big Young Hanson. Yeah.
[23:58] Speaker 1: The big Chinese dude that was in the crowd.
[24:01] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[24:02] Speaker 1: Now, first of all, my question, it says Hanson. Is
[24:06] Speaker 1: that like, is him being called Hanson the equivalent of
[24:09] Speaker 1: all them dudes that went to graduate school with names
[24:11] Speaker 1: like Dick and Harvey? Like, was that somebody's favorite band
[24:15] Speaker 1: back in the day and that's the name they gave
[24:16] Speaker 1: him before he came to America? Is it Young Hanson?
[24:19] Speaker 1: I don't know. It could go either way. I do
[24:21] Speaker 1: know this. I saw his highlights there, and I think
[24:26] Speaker 1: Jake Fisher sent a tweet about Chinese Jokic or somebody
[24:28] Speaker 1: said it. I see the vision, though. I'm actually quite
[24:33] Speaker 1: surprised that anybody would let this player slip to 15
[24:35] Speaker 1: if they had any idea of who he was.
[24:38] Speaker 2: All right, so full disclosure. I do the Blazers broadcast
[24:42] Speaker 2: last two years. So just understand where I'm coming from here.
[24:46] Speaker 2: I will say I had no idea that they were
[24:49] Speaker 2: in on this dude from China. And keep in mind
[24:53] Speaker 2: what Jake Fisher over at the Stein line reported is
[24:56] Speaker 2: a Denver coach. A Denver coach said he was Chinese Jokic. Okay.
[25:02] Speaker 2: So this is a guy who's on another team who's
[25:04] Speaker 2: seen this dude play and is like Chinese Jokic. Now,
[25:08] Speaker 2: if he was truly Chinese Jokic, obviously the Blazers would
[25:11] Speaker 2: have traded up to make sure 110% they're getting that guy, right?
[25:15] Speaker 2: But he was a second round projected pick. So this guy, man,
[25:22] Speaker 2: I love his personality too. Like when he's in the
[25:25] Speaker 2: stands and as soon as his name is called, he's
[25:27] Speaker 2: just holding one up. He's like, yeah, yeah. And did
[25:30] Speaker 2: you see who his agent was?
[25:32] Speaker 1: Well, I was just about to say that. His agent
[25:35] Speaker 1: is Rich Paul and of note, who represents the head
[25:39] Speaker 1: coach of the Portland Trailblazers.
[25:41] Speaker 2: There you go.
[25:42] Speaker 1: Rich Paul. When I saw Rich come out of the
[25:44] Speaker 1: stands with him, first of all, shout out to Rich.
[25:46] Speaker 1: Rich was everywhere he needed to be, boy. He had
[25:48] Speaker 1: to move up to the stage. He was down there.
[25:50] Speaker 1: He was down there at the front of the stands
[25:51] Speaker 1: to let him down like he was security. Like, y'all,
[25:53] Speaker 1: don't worry, homie. He with me coming down here. But
[25:56] Speaker 1: with his other guys, he was working the floor. He
[25:58] Speaker 1: was making all the moves. But I want to see this.
[26:02] Speaker 1: I see where this can go. And you said the
[26:05] Speaker 1: same thing I did. He was out there like, yeah,
[26:07] Speaker 1: what's up, baby? Boy, y'all, I'm up in here.
[26:10] Speaker 3: Yep.
[26:10] Speaker 1: Yep.
[26:11] Speaker 2: And man, like, look, let's just keep perspective here. He
[26:15] Speaker 2: was the defensive player of the year in the CBA
[26:18] Speaker 2: last year, the Chinese Basketball Association, a league in which
[26:20] Speaker 2: Jared Sullinger was the MVP last year. So we have
[26:24] Speaker 2: to keep our expectations tempered a little bit. But when
[26:27] Speaker 2: you see him... He has a lot of Jokic in
[26:30] Speaker 2: his game. I read it that the guys that he
[26:34] Speaker 2: models his game after are Alperin Shangun, Damanis Sabonis, and
[26:37] Speaker 2: Nikola Jokic. And you can see it the way he passes,
[26:41] Speaker 2: the way he uses one hand out there like a
[26:42] Speaker 2: water polo player, which Nikola Jokic was a water polo
[26:45] Speaker 2: player for his entire life before he came to the NBA.
[26:49] Speaker 2: This guy's 7'2. He's got the biggest hands in the combine.
[26:52] Speaker 2: And defensively, he's got to pick up his foot speed,
[26:57] Speaker 2: but defensively, This is as much of a home run pick,
[27:00] Speaker 2: and it's right around the time when Giannis was picked, right?
[27:03] Speaker 2: It's right around the time that just outside the lottery
[27:06] Speaker 2: that some of these guys, you're like, hey, how did
[27:08] Speaker 2: Pascal Siakam fall that far or Giannis Antetokounmpo? Same sort
[27:12] Speaker 2: of deal. On Con Canipple, man, it's just, if you
[27:16] Speaker 2: look at lotto picks going from Duke, Duke lotto picks,
[27:21] Speaker 2: I've tracked this. I've got this database that has every
[27:24] Speaker 2: draft pick since 1989. And since, let's just say since
[27:29] Speaker 2: the 2001 draft, the University of Kentucky Wildcats, UK has
[27:35] Speaker 2: the most lottery picks, 24. They've got 10 all-stars out
[27:40] Speaker 2: of those 24 lottery picks since 2001. I could go
[27:44] Speaker 2: through them all. You already know them off the top
[27:45] Speaker 2: of the head. A 42% all-star hit rate on those
[27:49] Speaker 2: lotto picks. Duke had 22 lotto picks. and six All-Stars,
[27:54] Speaker 2: so a 27% hit rate on those lotto picks. They
[27:58] Speaker 2: have twice as many busts as Kentucky does, but you're
[28:03] Speaker 2: gonna appreciate this. UNC, 12 lottery picks, Carolina, zero All-Stars
[28:10] Speaker 2: since 2001. So if UNC, I mean, if the Charlotte
[28:15] Speaker 2: Hornets are gonna pick one or the other and say,
[28:17] Speaker 2: we wanna go get a Duke guy or a UNC guy,
[28:20] Speaker 2: Thank God they're off that UNC thing because the last
[28:24] Speaker 2: All-Star to be drafted out of UNC, do you know
[28:28] Speaker 2: the name?
[28:30] Speaker 1: The names are Antoine Jamison and Vince Carter, I believe.
[28:33] Speaker 2: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.
[28:36] Speaker 1: 1998. It's crazy because they've been good. Right. Like it's
[28:40] Speaker 1: not as though as a program they've had some lulls, obviously.
[28:43] Speaker 3: Right.
[28:44] Speaker 1: But as a program, they've been good on the high
[28:46] Speaker 1: end of this. They have done what Duke has done
[28:49] Speaker 1: basically since Duke made the transition to getting those guys.
[28:51] Speaker 1: I think UNC is still like been as successful, if
[28:54] Speaker 1: not more. But a program that we think about as
[28:58] Speaker 1: producing pros.
[29:01] Speaker 3: It's not that.
[29:01] Speaker 1: And by the way, they're salty about that.
[29:05] Speaker 2: Can I tell you, Bomani? I was a kid who
[29:06] Speaker 2: grew up worshiping the Tar Heels. I went to basketball
[29:09] Speaker 2: camp there for every summer. My grandparents live in North Carolina.
[29:13] Speaker 2: It's why I live in North Carolina now. It's because
[29:15] Speaker 2: I love coming down and visiting North Carolina. So now
[29:18] Speaker 2: I live in Charlotte. I just dropped off my nephew
[29:21] Speaker 2: at UNC basketball camp. And it gave me all the feels, man,
[29:25] Speaker 2: like the the marketing that UNC does and the Carolina
[29:30] Speaker 2: Blue and the Pinstripe, all that stuff, the Paisley, all
[29:33] Speaker 2: that is great. But when I went to basketball camp,
[29:38] Speaker 2: I worship James. and Vince Carter. I can't even tell you, Bomani,
[29:43] Speaker 2: how insane it is that we're sitting here in 2025
[29:47] Speaker 2: and saying that was not just the peak, but it
[29:50] Speaker 2: was the cliff. Like Anton Jameson and Vince Carter, the
[29:55] Speaker 2: fact that that group, if you had told me back
[29:57] Speaker 2: then that those are the last all-stars to ever make
[29:59] Speaker 2: it out of UNC, I would have said you're crazy.
[30:04] Speaker 2: It is mind-boggling to me that we haven't had a
[30:07] Speaker 2: UNC guy make it to the All-Star since 2008. That
[30:10] Speaker 2: was the last one, Antoine Jameson. So what happened? Because
[30:14] Speaker 2: like you said, they're good. They've won national championships since then.
[30:18] Speaker 2: So it's hard. Is there something culture-wise or Roy Williams-wise
[30:24] Speaker 2: that you can pinpoint?
[30:26] Speaker 1: The irony of it is that historically, what you're describing
[30:30] Speaker 1: about UNC was Kentucky basketball prior to Cal, where it
[30:35] Speaker 1: was always about the players and the squads themselves rather
[30:38] Speaker 1: than it was about any individuals, right? It flipped up
[30:42] Speaker 1: the other way. Duke, again, then flipped and went in
[30:45] Speaker 1: that other direction. Roy, in large part, this is a
[30:49] Speaker 1: big thing with Hubert Davis, who I don't think is
[30:51] Speaker 1: long for that job because this job is not the
[30:52] Speaker 1: job that he signed up for. it is a much
[30:55] Speaker 1: more professional coaching job. And that is not, I think
[30:58] Speaker 1: Hubert will walk away by himself. I just don't think
[31:00] Speaker 1: that's what he's in it for. But they decided they
[31:04] Speaker 1: wanted the guys that they wanted, right? There's a certain
[31:06] Speaker 1: level of the game that they weren't as willing to play.
[31:09] Speaker 1: And we're going to try to win another way. And
[31:11] Speaker 1: nobody cares as long as you keep winning. Like Duke
[31:13] Speaker 1: make that flip up, but it didn't make them any better.
[31:15] Speaker 1: So I don't know how much it matters on that end.
[31:17] Speaker 1: But you're right. Guys leave Carolina because they're like, we
[31:20] Speaker 1: want to go somewhere that'll get us ready for the
[31:21] Speaker 1: pros a little bit more.
[31:23] Speaker 3: What?
[31:24] Speaker 1: Like the idea that Dean Smith's program is not the
[31:26] Speaker 1: one that'll get you ready for the pros. And even
[31:28] Speaker 1: if they say what you want about Roy, it was
[31:30] Speaker 1: a lot of pros coming out there during Roy's era,
[31:33] Speaker 1: but none of them were that guy. You get like
[31:35] Speaker 1: the 0-9 team has seven or eight pros on it,
[31:37] Speaker 1: but none became that guy. The guys that stayed in
[31:39] Speaker 1: the league a long time, but none became that guy.
[31:43] Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
[31:43] Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
[31:44] Speaker 2: I guess the next one is Kobe White. Like that's
[31:46] Speaker 2: the next hope is that like Kobe White can be
[31:48] Speaker 2: that guy. But he's he's a good score. But is
[31:51] Speaker 2: he an all star? Maybe maybe one day pink says
[31:53] Speaker 2: an all star. But it's been 17 years since we've
[31:57] Speaker 2: seen a Carolina guy go. into becoming an all-star. So
[32:02] Speaker 2: they're 0 for 12. UConn is 3 out of 14. Kansas,
[32:05] Speaker 2: 2 out of 16. That's crazy. Kansas, and you put
[32:10] Speaker 2: in the UNC thing and the Roy Williams factor, Kansas
[32:14] Speaker 2: has the highest bus to all-star rate in the lottery
[32:17] Speaker 2: since 2001. UK is the best. So Kentucky, much.
[32:20] Speaker 1: Better than Kansas. Those are mostly Bill Self guys because
[32:25] Speaker 1: I think the Roy guys in that time really are
[32:30] Speaker 1: Kirk Heinrich and he with the retired jersey at Oklahoma City,
[32:36] Speaker 1: Nick Collison. But I want to put a pin in
[32:38] Speaker 1: this right fast because there is a school that you
[32:40] Speaker 1: may have never heard of that Tom believes is the
[32:43] Speaker 1: school that you should draft players from if they went
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[35:35] Speaker 1: are back with Tom Haberstroh. And as you guys know,
[35:37] Speaker 1: Tom does a lot of good stuff with the numbers,
[35:39] Speaker 1: looking for trends and the likes. And you got something
[35:41] Speaker 1: up at Yahoo right now where you were talking about,
[35:44] Speaker 1: you know, what schools there are that maybe you should
[35:47] Speaker 1: draft players from. Now, you are a Wake Forest grad.
[35:50] Speaker 1: We do not have Muzzy Bogues in the background today
[35:54] Speaker 1: for whatever reason. But that's Tom's away guy. And it
[35:57] Speaker 1: seems that your alma mater does good putting guys in
[36:00] Speaker 1: the league or relative to draft stats, right?
[36:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I did a study a few years ago
[36:05] Speaker 2: looking at which college programs produce the best NBA players.
[36:09] Speaker 2: And I'm not talking just like the most all-stars. I'm
[36:12] Speaker 2: saying like if you're a GM or if you're a
[36:14] Speaker 2: fan and you're like, hey, who are the most underrated
[36:17] Speaker 2: programs that exceed expectations based on draft slot? That like
[36:21] Speaker 2: maybe they're drafted 10, but they're performing at like a five.
[36:24] Speaker 2: Like who has the most juice coming out of college?
[36:30] Speaker 2: And it's Wake Forest. It's the Demon Deacons. And if
[36:35] Speaker 2: you look at the NBA finals this year, the guy
[36:37] Speaker 2: who got ejected, James Johnson. Did anyone think that James
[36:42] Speaker 2: Johnson would have a 20-year career in the NBA? I'd
[36:44] Speaker 2: say 16 years so far. That's just one of the guys.
[36:50] Speaker 2: Jeff Teague, Chris Paul. Of course, there's Tim Duncan. There's
[36:54] Speaker 2: a lot of hits when it comes to the Wake
[36:57] Speaker 2: Forest Demon Deacons. Of the four big schools in the
[37:01] Speaker 2: Tobacco Road area, NC State, uh, Carolina Duke, like we're
[37:06] Speaker 2: always punching up above our weight, 5,000, uh, undergrad enrollment.
[37:10] Speaker 2: Like we're the smallest power five school in the country.
[37:13] Speaker 2: And yet when you talk about NBA prospects, Jake LaRavia
[37:16] Speaker 2: is another one, uh, who just got traded last year,
[37:20] Speaker 2: Indiana state transfer, still in the league and a pretty
[37:23] Speaker 2: good player. Wake Forest, uh, I don't know what that's about.
[37:26] Speaker 2: Maybe it's just like when you're competing at the highest
[37:29] Speaker 2: levels of the ACC and you're not from those blue
[37:32] Speaker 2: chip programs at Carolina and Duke, maybe you're getting underrated.
[37:35] Speaker 2: But like you look at Jeff Teague's career, you look at–
[37:39] Speaker 2: throw out Rodney Rogers too, Muggsy Bogues. A lot of
[37:42] Speaker 2: these Wake products do a lot better than expected. The
[37:44] Speaker 2: only one that I can point to, Randolph Childress.
[37:49] Speaker 3: Andrew.
[37:50] Speaker 2: That's the only one that didn't pan out, I feel like.
[37:53] Speaker 2: Throw Josh Howard in there. Another hit.
[37:55] Speaker 1: Josh Howard, it went away out of nowhere. He made
[38:00] Speaker 1: the people mad with that Obama joke in 08, and
[38:02] Speaker 1: then it was like, damn, whatever happened to Josh Howard?
[38:04] Speaker 3: Do you remember that?
[38:06] Speaker 1: Rodney Rogers, my favorite Wake Forest player ever, perhaps my
[38:08] Speaker 1: favorite ACC player of my whole present lifetime. Good God.
[38:14] Speaker 1: That's a you-had-to-be-there case.
[38:17] Speaker 2: When people were saying that Zion resembles Rodney Rogers or
[38:20] Speaker 2: just like the strength and the size and the athleticism
[38:23] Speaker 2: and the way that he played.
[38:25] Speaker 1: It was an all point comparison for college Rodney Rogers.
[38:28] Speaker 1: Like college Rodney Rogers is not athletic enough to be
[38:30] Speaker 1: that guy in the NBA that, you know, that he
[38:33] Speaker 1: came up, but he turned into Rodney. an excellent three-point
[38:36] Speaker 1: shooter and a six-man type of player. But no, when people,
[38:39] Speaker 1: it was a real hashtag IYKYK situation. Whereas like if
[38:43] Speaker 1: you saw Zion and you saw Rodney Rogers, like no,
[38:46] Speaker 1: Rodney was not that explosive, but that was the cop.
[38:50] Speaker 1: That was my favorite way guy. Jeff T was always
[38:53] Speaker 1: interesting because he was so good those two years he
[38:55] Speaker 1: was there. But they, after Skip died, they might as
[38:59] Speaker 1: well have been coaching themselves. And in fact, they were
[39:01] Speaker 1: coached by a now convicted felon. that's a discussion for
[39:05] Speaker 1: a different day.
[39:06] Speaker 2: I i was on campus when that news hit when
[39:09] Speaker 2: skip passed away a heart attack um that was uh
[39:13] Speaker 2: i i didn't quite realize how good of a coach
[39:17] Speaker 2: he was and how good of a recruiter he was
[39:19] Speaker 2: and i know like after he passed a lot of
[39:22] Speaker 2: coaches you know spoke glowingly about the kind of man
[39:25] Speaker 2: that skip prosser was but we have not been able
[39:28] Speaker 2: to get back since. It's been a really tough road
[39:31] Speaker 2: for Wake, the Danny Manning era, the Jeff Bezdelic era.
[39:35] Speaker 2: But you talk about that class that he brought in,
[39:37] Speaker 2: and Dino Gaudio, to his credit, he was a pretty
[39:41] Speaker 2: good recruiter, but Skip Prosser, he got the talent back.
[39:47] Speaker 2: to to play at a very high level and you're
[39:49] Speaker 2: talking like al farouk minu ish smith jeff teague james
[39:54] Speaker 2: johnson on the same team and ish smith didn't get
[39:56] Speaker 2: didn't even get drafted and he had a base.
[39:58] Speaker 1: There's your over performer right there you could tell he
[40:01] Speaker 1: cool as hell still in i mean he may still
[40:03] Speaker 1: be in the league i don't think he's still there
[40:04] Speaker 1: now but he would definitely people love ish smith that's
[40:07] Speaker 1: what it takes for you to be in smith and
[40:08] Speaker 1: stay in the league that long people love that man.
[40:11] Speaker 2: So the thing that I didn't realize, I did this
[40:15] Speaker 2: story last year, is that like Wake Forest as a program,
[40:18] Speaker 2: Kentucky and Wake Forest are head and shoulders above all
[40:21] Speaker 2: the other college programs in terms of how well the
[40:24] Speaker 2: player does based on where they were drafted. But there's
[40:28] Speaker 2: this other effect, this other variable that I think people
[40:31] Speaker 2: are sleeping on is did your dad play in the NBA?
[40:37] Speaker 2: That genetic line, the bloodline of did your dad play
[40:41] Speaker 2: in the NBA is one of the greatest amplifiers in
[40:47] Speaker 2: the world. When it comes to like, hey, what do
[40:50] Speaker 2: I want to get in an NBA player? You know what?
[40:52] Speaker 2: Did his dad play in the league?
[40:54] Speaker 1: Yes.
[40:54] Speaker 2: Then you should draft him. Like any sort of tiebreakers
[40:57] Speaker 2: or any sort of doubts. These guys, whether it's Jalen Brunson,
[41:00] Speaker 2: Stephen Curry, Kobe Bryant, by the way, another one of
[41:03] Speaker 2: these second gen NBA players. they hit 30% higher than
[41:07] Speaker 2: what you would expect based on where they're drafting. So
[41:11] Speaker 2: you're moving up six slots basically on your production in
[41:13] Speaker 2: the NBA. It's one of the biggest effects in the
[41:18] Speaker 2: draft is did your dad play in the NBA? So
[41:21] Speaker 2: Dylan Harper, his father Ron Harper, Jace Richardson, father Jason Richardson,
[41:27] Speaker 2: These two prospects.
[41:27] Speaker 1: Hold on, we're at the point where Jason Richardson's son
[41:29] Speaker 1: is in the NBA?
[41:30] Speaker 2: Swear to you, he played at Michigan State, of course,
[41:33] Speaker 2: and his name is Jase, and spelled J-A-S-E, Richardson. And
[41:38] Speaker 2: he's a six-footer, but he can shoot the rock, man.
[41:41] Speaker 2: He's not as quite of a high flyer as his
[41:42] Speaker 2: dad was. But we're coming up on the Boozer twins, right?
[41:47] Speaker 2: We're coming up on Gilbert Arenas' son. We're coming up
[41:49] Speaker 2: on a lot of... Carmelo Anthony's son. These guys... have
[41:54] Speaker 2: a way higher hit rate than a bust rate. And
[41:57] Speaker 2: I feel like they don't get enough credit on draft night.
[42:00] Speaker 2: Like Devin Booker fell, his father played in the NBA.
[42:03] Speaker 2: You look at Seth Curry, his brother was the greatest
[42:06] Speaker 2: sensation in sports and yet he could not get drafted.
[42:10] Speaker 2: And he's still in the league after all these years.
[42:12] Speaker 2: So Bo, do you think like as a GM, as
[42:15] Speaker 2: a culture player, These guys are sliding on draft night
[42:18] Speaker 2: that the GMs are like, I don't want to have
[42:20] Speaker 2: to deal with the kid's son. Like maybe he's full
[42:23] Speaker 2: of himself, maybe feels entitled. Or do you think they're
[42:25] Speaker 2: just undervalued in ways that maybe the stats can't show?
[42:30] Speaker 2: Is that maybe they're late bloomers or late developers and
[42:33] Speaker 2: they just have this kind of emotional IQ that gives
[42:37] Speaker 2: them a leg up in the NBA?
[42:39] Speaker 1: It's a good question because I read your piece and
[42:42] Speaker 1: the examples that I found to be interesting. Well, let
[42:46] Speaker 1: me back up before I get there. I was with
[42:49] Speaker 1: LeVar Ball where I thought he made a very good
[42:52] Speaker 1: point where he said, I've never seen a Hall of
[42:54] Speaker 1: Fame player with a Hall of Fame son. Um, and
[42:57] Speaker 1: by the way, thus far, we don't have anybody tossing
[43:00] Speaker 1: that out of the window. Like we, we, we, we,
[43:02] Speaker 1: we don't have anything quite in that space where, um,
[43:06] Speaker 1: even the guys that we're looking at now, Dylan Harper
[43:08] Speaker 1: at the number two pick in the draft, Ron Harper,
[43:10] Speaker 1: who for you guys who were you, if you think
[43:13] Speaker 1: of Ron Harper in the context of when he won
[43:15] Speaker 1: those five rings, that is Ron Harper after the knee injuries.
[43:19] Speaker 1: Ron Harper was like a, it's Jordan and Ron Harper
[43:23] Speaker 1: matched up tonight. I got to watch that. Not saying
[43:26] Speaker 1: he's as good as Michael Jordan, but that was the
[43:27] Speaker 1: caliber of talent and athlete that Ron Harper was, specifically
[43:31] Speaker 1: when he played for Cleveland before they traded him to
[43:33] Speaker 1: the Clippers. The guys that we're talking about, Carlos Boozer
[43:37] Speaker 1: might be the best one to have a kid that
[43:39] Speaker 1: we're talking about at those levels. Kyan, Carmelo's son, we're
[43:43] Speaker 1: not talking about him in that way. Yeah, we're not
[43:45] Speaker 1: talking about him as like the Boozer twins are looking
[43:47] Speaker 1: like top five. type players we're not talking about them
[43:50] Speaker 1: in that case so it's wild though to me though
[43:53] Speaker 1: one would think that the league would prioritize that exposure
[43:58] Speaker 1: as much if not more than anything else from what
[44:02] Speaker 1: your data indicates that's not it in the cases that
[44:05] Speaker 1: i find to be interesting i don't want to ruin
[44:07] Speaker 1: it but there's a lot in your story about gary
[44:09] Speaker 1: payton the second and i It took him a while
[44:14] Speaker 1: to get it going, but he carved out a 10-year
[44:17] Speaker 1: NBA career. Like what I wonder is specifically about the
[44:23] Speaker 1: sons of players, if those guys are, we'll call them
[44:26] Speaker 1: like second round picks or somewhere in there. If they
[44:30] Speaker 1: have a different mentality, what a different mentality about what
[44:33] Speaker 1: it's going to take for you to get up from
[44:35] Speaker 1: where you are and make it. But also number two,
[44:38] Speaker 1: a financial security that allows you to get out here
[44:41] Speaker 1: and chase your dreams forever. 100%.
[44:44] Speaker 2: And think about just like Jalen Brunson growing up in
[44:46] Speaker 2: an NBA locker room. You know the work ethic that
[44:49] Speaker 2: it takes, right? And not only that, the networking that
[44:52] Speaker 2: you're already in the room with all the high-powered agents
[44:54] Speaker 2: and you're going to get to go to all the camps.
[44:56] Speaker 2: You're going to have a leg up just developmentally Jalen
[44:59] Speaker 2: Brunson is able to get in. By the way, Jalen Brunson,
[45:01] Speaker 2: also not a lottery pick. Gary Payton II, not even drafted.
[45:05] Speaker 2: Seth Curry, not even drafted. These guys that if their
[45:08] Speaker 2: father played in the NBA, I would take that flyer.
[45:12] Speaker 2: Even like Bronny James last year, I know it's such
[45:14] Speaker 2: a lightning rod, but like talk to me in three years.
[45:17] Speaker 2: Maybe I'm wrong. But those are the types of profiles
[45:20] Speaker 2: of guys that they cash in later at like Gary
[45:24] Speaker 2: Payton Jr., Gary Payton II, where it's like you might
[45:27] Speaker 2: not see it on day one after college, but for
[45:30] Speaker 2: whatever reason, they are late bloomers. And like the only one–
[45:34] Speaker 2: The only all-time great whose son was also an all-star
[45:40] Speaker 2: is Damanis Sabonis, right? Arvidas Sabonis.
[45:43] Speaker 1: That is a great example. I completely forgotten there, but
[45:46] Speaker 1: you are 100% correct. Like.
[45:50] Speaker 2: domanis like think about that team that team the portland
[45:53] Speaker 2: team had harvey grant domanis sabonis and uh who was
[45:58] Speaker 2: the third one.
[45:59] Speaker 1: Uh jeremy great jeremy great well yeah but like his
[46:02] Speaker 1: dad like okay okay gotcha i'm with you.
[46:05] Speaker 2: So his dad uh art so like if you look
[46:09] Speaker 2: at that um yeah 96 blazers team gary trent Arvita
[46:15] Speaker 2: Sabonis and Harvey Grant. So Harvey Grant had two kids
[46:19] Speaker 2: who went to the NBA. Gary Trent Jr. now with
[46:21] Speaker 2: the Milwaukee Bucks and Arvita Sabonis' son, Damanis Sabonis.
[46:24] Speaker 1: So it's like, man. And then Dale Davis got there.
[46:27] Speaker 1: Dale Davis was in Jermaine O'Deal trade. That's where that was.
[46:31] Speaker 1: And then Jermaine apparently has a kid. that's on the
[46:34] Speaker 1: rise because um I think I think Jay is our
[46:37] Speaker 1: mutual friend Jay Caspian Kang wrote a story for the
[46:39] Speaker 1: New Yorker that was just it is actually very disturbing
[46:42] Speaker 1: about how the the money has completely changed the game
[46:45] Speaker 1: and all this stuff basically is pro basketball at the
[46:48] Speaker 1: child like at the at the youth level which is
[46:51] Speaker 1: now adding an additional priority to the the the kids
[46:55] Speaker 1: of former players.
[46:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an amazing piece. I highly recommend it at
[47:00] Speaker 2: the New Yorker. It's called Airball, H-E-I-R, which is an
[47:04] Speaker 2: amazing little pun there. It's a really interesting piece that
[47:09] Speaker 2: he talked to Steve Nash. He talked to Jermaine O'Neal.
[47:11] Speaker 2: He talked to Luka Doncic, who funded, who commissioned a
[47:14] Speaker 2: study about youth sports, youth basketball, and how to fix it.
[47:19] Speaker 2: And Luka Doncic and Jermaine O'Neal are like, we sucked
[47:21] Speaker 2: the joy out of a lot of playing basketball.
[47:25] Speaker 3: It's like, I.
[47:28] Speaker 2: I told you, I went to Chapel Hill to drop
[47:30] Speaker 2: off my nephew over at camp. And at the Granville
[47:33] Speaker 2: Towers on campus at Chapel Hill, there used to be
[47:37] Speaker 2: a basketball court and a pool. And it was like,
[47:40] Speaker 2: you could go there during camp and watch all of
[47:42] Speaker 2: these future NBA players just play. And it was the
[47:45] Speaker 2: coolest thing. There was a brick wall and everyone was
[47:47] Speaker 2: sitting on it and just watching all these incredible athletes
[47:50] Speaker 2: years before they would make it in the NBA. Those
[47:52] Speaker 2: are gone. The idea of playing pickup at a camp
[47:56] Speaker 2: and just having fun is out. And it's a blemish
[48:00] Speaker 2: on society is that that cool little thing that we
[48:03] Speaker 2: had when we were kids is we could go to that,
[48:05] Speaker 2: play pickup on that blacktop is now developed into a Chipotle, right?
[48:10] Speaker 2: And it feels like that is a symbol of where
[48:13] Speaker 2: we're at right now is that like these prospects, it's
[48:16] Speaker 2: a job. Like what Jermaine O'Neal is describing is that
[48:20] Speaker 2: he's building an academy, which has a lot of merit.
[48:24] Speaker 2: And I'm backing him. And I'm like, I think this
[48:26] Speaker 2: is smart. Rather than having them travel all over the
[48:28] Speaker 2: place and lose their friendships and lose their childhood, he's
[48:31] Speaker 2: building an academy where he can basically model the European
[48:35] Speaker 2: academy that Luka Doncic came out of. But it feels like, Bomani...
[48:41] Speaker 2: There's this kind of like the soul of the game
[48:43] Speaker 2: is being lost when you're basically treating youth basketball as
[48:47] Speaker 2: a job. It's like you're putting these guys into a
[48:49] Speaker 2: program at 10 years old and is like, yeah, you're
[48:52] Speaker 2: going to take a couple of classes, but we're really
[48:54] Speaker 2: here to turn you into an NBA player. And it
[48:57] Speaker 2: feels like, I don't know, LeBron, he's a one of one,
[49:00] Speaker 2: like genetically hit the lottery like six times over. He
[49:04] Speaker 2: could have woke up one day and been an NFL
[49:08] Speaker 2: Pro Bowl or NBA All-Star, whatever. It doesn't matter. But
[49:11] Speaker 2: he talks about it and he's like, I didn't have
[49:14] Speaker 2: a basketball trainer until like four years in the NBA.
[49:16] Speaker 2: He doesn't need a basketball trainer when he's that good,
[49:19] Speaker 2: but it reminds me. me that none of these players
[49:22] Speaker 2: these young talented players they're gonna get burnt out and
[49:26] Speaker 2: that's what Jermaine O'Neal talked about his daughter who was
[49:28] Speaker 2: a high level volleyball prospect she's like I'm done like
[49:31] Speaker 2: in high school I'm done I'm done with this.
[49:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked about this a bit this week in
[49:36] Speaker 1: talking about the Achilles tear. And I was telling people
[49:38] Speaker 1: about I talked to a guy who worked in college
[49:39] Speaker 1: basketball and he said the real issue on the mileage
[49:41] Speaker 1: that people are talking about is the trainer time. It's
[49:45] Speaker 1: all about that stuff, by the way. And I don't
[49:47] Speaker 1: know if there's any way to get a real good
[49:49] Speaker 1: data set on this. I'm not convinced it matters that much.
[49:52] Speaker 1: I still think that nothing matters more to becoming a
[49:55] Speaker 1: professional than physical endowments. And I think in part, the
[49:59] Speaker 1: exposure that we talk about with the pro kids, you
[50:02] Speaker 1: know what I mean? But I'm not convinced that getting
[50:05] Speaker 1: these program games as everybody has that's necessarily going to
[50:09] Speaker 1: be the thing that gets you. When those guys go
[50:10] Speaker 1: in the gym looking for players, they're looking for how big,
[50:13] Speaker 1: how fast, how high, how well do you shoot, right?
[50:17] Speaker 1: Things that you can by and large work on on
[50:19] Speaker 1: your own. And in fact, what they're actively looking for
[50:22] Speaker 1: are people that there's a ceiling left for you to
[50:25] Speaker 1: help raise because that's how you get a raise is
[50:28] Speaker 1: by getting that guy that other people don't see and
[50:30] Speaker 1: there's room for expansion, right? And so getting these other
[50:33] Speaker 1: guys Again, I think there's a question to be asked
[50:36] Speaker 1: about how much that stuff matters. But I am with
[50:40] Speaker 1: you totally on the soul of the game part. There's
[50:41] Speaker 1: a young man I used to mentor I haven't talked
[50:43] Speaker 1: to in a long time, and I rarely do this,
[50:45] Speaker 1: but I'm saying his name in case any of y'all
[50:47] Speaker 1: know how to find him because it's hard to find
[50:49] Speaker 1: somebody named Mike Jones out in the wild. It's a
[50:52] Speaker 1: zillion Mike Joneses. Mike Jones from St. Louis who played football. Yes,
[50:56] Speaker 1: who played football at Quincy University and last I heard
[50:59] Speaker 1: lived in Atlanta. If you know Mike Jones, tell him
[51:01] Speaker 1: to holler at me.
[51:02] Speaker 3: I ain't hard to find. I see you, Dion.
[51:05] Speaker 1: But anyway, he said something to me many years ago
[51:07] Speaker 1: because he played basketball in high school in a pretty
[51:09] Speaker 1: decent level. And I'd never thought of it. He was like,
[51:12] Speaker 1: Those prep school kids, it's a job for them.
[51:14] Speaker 2: Right.
[51:15] Speaker 1: I believe at the time we were talking about Ty
[51:17] Speaker 1: Lawson for whom basketball, he clearly was not playing basketball
[51:20] Speaker 1: to go to school.
[51:21] Speaker 3: Right.
[51:21] Speaker 1: That was Ty Lawson was asked after he declared for
[51:24] Speaker 1: the draft if he was going to come back and
[51:26] Speaker 1: finish his degree.
[51:26] Speaker 3: And he laughed.
[51:28] Speaker 1: But I'll never forget when he said that. And it
[51:31] Speaker 1: dawned on me the first time somebody leaves their school
[51:35] Speaker 1: for basketball, they leave home for basketball. It is officially
[51:40] Speaker 1: a job to them. Damn near all of them do
[51:44] Speaker 1: this now, right? They're all going to a prep school
[51:47] Speaker 1: or whatever. They're going to these colleges and we're seeing
[51:49] Speaker 1: these crazy transfer rates. That is a discussion for a
[51:52] Speaker 1: different day for why I think that's all so stupid.
[51:54] Speaker 1: But it is absolutely a job very, very early, which
[51:58] Speaker 1: I think is a negative for the viewer and for
[52:02] Speaker 1: the league, because at least for me, at least, We're
[52:06] Speaker 1: in it for the human elements of what is going on.
[52:09] Speaker 1: I'm not here just to see. I saw somebody make
[52:12] Speaker 1: the point once online and they were just like, somehow
[52:14] Speaker 1: you're going to try to convince us that basketball was
[52:17] Speaker 1: better when the players weren't as good. And I'm like,
[52:19] Speaker 1: I understand why that sounds crazy to you, but it's
[52:22] Speaker 1: not crazy at all. What we enjoy is not the
[52:25] Speaker 1: maximization of an equation of how good the players can be.
[52:28] Speaker 1: It's a lot of other things, you know, that go
[52:31] Speaker 1: into it. But what are you supposed to do if
[52:34] Speaker 1: it's a world where the former players are sending their
[52:36] Speaker 1: kids out there and they have, they clearly outperformed their
[52:40] Speaker 1: draft slide, as you say. Now you got to find
[52:42] Speaker 1: a way to replicate what exposure they get. But the
[52:45] Speaker 1: only way you can do it is with traitors and
[52:48] Speaker 1: burn your kids out. Yeah.
[52:50] Speaker 2: I mean, you look at how the Oklahoma City Thunder
[52:53] Speaker 2: celebrated that championship where they're just like, I don't even
[52:56] Speaker 2: know what, How to open up a champagne bottle. Like
[52:59] Speaker 2: I what is this beer is disgusting. You know, like
[53:03] Speaker 2: these kids don't party like they don't get they don't
[53:05] Speaker 2: go and like they don't have a college life. Like
[53:08] Speaker 2: all of that is out the window when your job
[53:10] Speaker 2: is at 15 years old is make sure you are
[53:13] Speaker 2: all about playing basketball and maximizing your chances at a
[53:17] Speaker 2: long NBA career and getting that money. I'm looking at
[53:21] Speaker 2: this story from Baxter Holmes at ESPN. He was following
[53:27] Speaker 2: Cooper Flagg through this process. There was a little note
[53:31] Speaker 2: here in the story from ESPN that just came out
[53:34] Speaker 2: this week about Dallas Mavericks drafting Cooper Flagg. Remember on
[53:38] Speaker 2: the draft lottery night when Dallas won the number one
[53:42] Speaker 2: overall pick? They won the lottery. They showed Cooper flag.
[53:46] Speaker 2: And it kind of looked like he was just like
[53:48] Speaker 2: a robot. Like he didn't, he wasn't looking happy. He
[53:50] Speaker 2: wasn't looking sad. He wasn't looking anything. And it's because
[53:53] Speaker 2: his family and everyone around him was like, don't react
[53:58] Speaker 2: because it's only going to be used against you in
[54:00] Speaker 2: social media or what have you. So just be as
[54:04] Speaker 2: uninteresting as possible. And that to me, that little scene
[54:08] Speaker 2: of Cooper flag on the night of the draft lottery.
[54:11] Speaker 2: And they're like, just be as boring as possible because
[54:15] Speaker 2: that's probably going to be good for your brand and
[54:17] Speaker 2: like having advertisers and not being on social media. I
[54:20] Speaker 2: feel like all of these players are now coached any
[54:23] Speaker 2: sort of personality out of them. And that's why Anthony
[54:26] Speaker 2: Edwards is so refreshing is because I think a lot
[54:29] Speaker 2: of these, these younger players who are awesome are, have
[54:32] Speaker 2: been coached to just be boring and don't go out,
[54:36] Speaker 2: don't go party, don't go live outside of the gym
[54:39] Speaker 2: because it can be used against you on social media.
[54:41] Speaker 2: And I don't like that, Bo, because like you said,
[54:44] Speaker 2: I like the stories, the human element. And to me,
[54:47] Speaker 2: it's not that I'm watching the NBA because I want
[54:49] Speaker 2: to see Chris Bosh pouring a bottle of champagne on
[54:52] Speaker 2: his head, but it does feel like we're losing something.
[54:55] Speaker 1: I remember we did something on Game Theory about overtime
[54:59] Speaker 1: at league. And we didn't work this into the piece,
[55:01] Speaker 1: but I really wanted to. My question about overtime elite was,
[55:07] Speaker 1: and forgive me if I am being, I believe the
[55:09] Speaker 1: term is heteronormative, but I was like, all right, so
[55:11] Speaker 1: where the girl's at? I would like to think, at
[55:16] Speaker 1: least it sure appeared to be the case when I
[55:18] Speaker 1: was a kid, that one of the great perks of
[55:22] Speaker 1: playing basketball at this high level and acquiring this level
[55:25] Speaker 1: of fame was, you know, the girls, if that's what
[55:29] Speaker 1: you do, right? Or that's what you're into. The girls
[55:32] Speaker 1: are there. I'm not trying to go. This is like
[55:34] Speaker 1: a cell block. We're just out here making highlights with
[55:36] Speaker 1: a bunch of dudes. Where are the girls at, right? Like,
[55:40] Speaker 1: why can't I go to a school that's got some
[55:43] Speaker 1: girls at it? This is all part of it. You
[55:46] Speaker 1: know what I mean? And so, yeah, but as we
[55:50] Speaker 1: talk about what we talk about and looking at these indicators,
[55:53] Speaker 1: the stakes have gotten so high and the dream feels
[55:56] Speaker 1: more attainable than ever. The point that I make, I'm
[55:58] Speaker 1: curious what you think about this. The dream feels more
[56:02] Speaker 1: attainable and it's harder to reach than ever because it's
[56:05] Speaker 1: more players and it's still only 30 teams. Even if
[56:08] Speaker 1: you add two more teams, you're only adding 30 more slots.
[56:13] Speaker 1: I've looked this up. I'm going to go right now
[56:17] Speaker 1: to the we'll call it the 2018 recruiting class. We'll
[56:25] Speaker 1: just throw a number out there. That's Zion Williams' class.
[56:29] Speaker 1: How many real live nba players do you think that
[56:34] Speaker 1: in fact let me make this i'm going to look
[56:35] Speaker 1: up uh oj mayo as a result this is the
[56:37] Speaker 1: recruiting class of 2007 which was a highly touted recruiting
[56:41] Speaker 1: class right oj mayo derrick rose michael beasley kevin love
[56:44] Speaker 1: eric gorton um a lot of guys how many real
[56:49] Speaker 1: live nba players do you think this draft I mean,
[56:54] Speaker 1: this recruiting class produced. I'm going to go down and
[56:57] Speaker 1: order on names. I have sorted this by win shares.
[57:00] Speaker 1: High win share. Now we're going down.
[57:02] Speaker 3: So that class? Yes.
[57:03] Speaker 1: James Harden, DeAndre Jordan, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, Jeff Teague,
[57:08] Speaker 1: Derrick Rose, Eric Gordon, Marcus Morris. We're at number eight
[57:12] Speaker 1: and we've gotten to number nine and we have gotten
[57:15] Speaker 1: to Patrick Patterson.
[57:17] Speaker 2: OK, we are at.
[57:18] Speaker 1: Number 10 and we've gotten to Chandler Parsons. We are
[57:21] Speaker 1: at 11 and we've gotten to Costa Cufas. We're at
[57:24] Speaker 1: 12 and we're talking about James Johnson. 13, we had
[57:28] Speaker 1: the appearance of a Morris. 14, we have J.J.
[57:31] Speaker 3: Hickson.
[57:32] Speaker 1: You see what I'm saying? Like there are guys down
[57:34] Speaker 1: here like Evan Turner, for example, who made decent money.
[57:38] Speaker 1: But I'm saying this country really produces like 15, maybe
[57:42] Speaker 1: 20 for real NBA players a year. Not just guys
[57:46] Speaker 1: who got to the NBA and played a little bit,
[57:48] Speaker 1: but like for real, really good NBA players. This country
[57:51] Speaker 1: produces maybe 20 of them a year. They're 30 something
[57:54] Speaker 1: five stars. That's how hard it is to make it
[57:59] Speaker 1: to the NBA. They're like 20 slots for Americans truly
[58:03] Speaker 1: per year to really have.
[58:04] Speaker 3: A go at it.
[58:05] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[58:05] Speaker 2: And the way that things are going, like the fact
[58:08] Speaker 2: that Shea Gildress Alexander was what, like the sixth straight
[58:11] Speaker 2: MVP to not be born in the United States? Yes.
[58:16] Speaker 2: And Wemby's coming. So Anthony Edwards, he's still scratching and
[58:21] Speaker 2: clawing his way up. And it feels like He's the
[58:24] Speaker 2: dude who's trying to climb up the ladder and someone's
[58:26] Speaker 2: just kicking him down where it's like, man, you thought
[58:28] Speaker 2: you were coming and you're going after Nikola Jokic's throne.
[58:31] Speaker 2: And then here comes Shea Gildress Alexander. As soon as
[58:33] Speaker 2: like Shea Gildress Alexander is out here trying to repeat
[58:36] Speaker 2: and three beat here comes Wemby. I don't, I don't
[58:40] Speaker 2: look at this class and say there's a lot of
[58:42] Speaker 2: international talent, like not super high end international talent. Zachary
[58:47] Speaker 2: Risa Shea was the number one overall pick last year
[58:49] Speaker 2: from France. Um, But that's why a lot of the
[58:53] Speaker 2: hype around Cooper Flagg is on Cooper Flagg. It's because
[58:58] Speaker 2: he's not just this white kid from Maine. He's also
[59:01] Speaker 2: just American. We haven't had a guy who is this
[59:04] Speaker 2: talented come through in quite some time where it's like,
[59:08] Speaker 2: all right, he's the one. he's the one in this
[59:11] Speaker 2: in this draft class and there's no one else that
[59:13] Speaker 2: can come close to Cooper Flagg and I.
[59:16] Speaker 1: Think that's tied to our discussion because look this country's
[59:21] Speaker 1: still producing basketball players right it's still producing very good
[59:25] Speaker 1: basketball players it's still producing all-star basketball players superstar tier
[59:30] Speaker 1: basketball players is what it is not producing. I mean,
[59:34] Speaker 1: it's boring out. Who are the five best players in
[59:36] Speaker 1: the NBA? How many of them are from America? Now,
[59:39] Speaker 1: some of them are like a Joel Embiid who played
[59:41] Speaker 1: high school basketball here. Shea Gilders Alexander who played high
[59:44] Speaker 1: school basketball here. But there's something going on prior to
[59:47] Speaker 1: high school, clearly, that is interfering with this country's ability
[59:51] Speaker 1: to produce superstar caliber basketball players. And maybe, just maybe,
[59:57] Speaker 1: it's because once you turn it into a job, all
[1:00:00] Speaker 1: they're trying to do is get the job done.
[1:00:01] Speaker 2: That's right. Hey- People don't realize LeBron James was two-time
[1:00:06] Speaker 2: All-State in Ohio in football. Basketball wasn't a job for him.
[1:00:11] Speaker 1: It wasn't.
[1:00:12] Speaker 2: He was interested in all this other stuff, including football,
[1:00:15] Speaker 2: where I think in his heart of hearts, I think
[1:00:18] Speaker 2: he might have had more fun on the football field
[1:00:20] Speaker 2: than on the basketball court. But because of the nature
[1:00:22] Speaker 2: of the game and the violence of the game, he
[1:00:24] Speaker 2: saw basketball as having a longer tail in terms of
[1:00:27] Speaker 2: his career, right? But you can't tell me that these
[1:00:31] Speaker 2: guys who are coming in from Europe... So one of
[1:00:34] Speaker 2: my favorite things going to an NBA game is watching
[1:00:38] Speaker 2: at warm-ups, like in layup lines, all these European and
[1:00:43] Speaker 2: African players coming in and playing soccer at half court
[1:00:47] Speaker 2: with each other. Embiid, Luka, Siakam, Giannis. All these dudes
[1:00:54] Speaker 2: are just playing soccer and kicking the ball around.
[1:00:57] Speaker 1: And it's like.
[1:00:58] Speaker 2: They played soccer their entire lives and basketball came later
[1:01:02] Speaker 2: as just like, oh, I'm really tall. I think there's
[1:01:05] Speaker 2: something to that. Steve Nash, same thing. And they were
[1:01:07] Speaker 2: talking about it together, LeBron and Steve Nash, about how
[1:01:12] Speaker 2: the specialization at a young age is backfiring in a
[1:01:16] Speaker 2: huge way. And I think the NBA is trying to
[1:01:20] Speaker 2: figure out how to set up academies. They've been trying
[1:01:22] Speaker 2: to do this for years is try to figure out
[1:01:25] Speaker 2: how to make American youth basketball players, not just good,
[1:01:30] Speaker 2: but like you said, great, because we have not done
[1:01:33] Speaker 2: a good job of that. And it doesn't seem like
[1:01:35] Speaker 2: we're going to be catching up anytime soon. And that's
[1:01:37] Speaker 2: why Cooper flag, like we're pinning a lot on this
[1:01:39] Speaker 2: dude because we're looking around the league and all the
[1:01:42] Speaker 2: best players are not from America.
[1:01:44] Speaker 1: We so hyped up to make the Cooper flag thing happen.
[1:01:47] Speaker 1: We ain't even got time to not like him for
[1:01:50] Speaker 1: the best reason there ever was not to like somebody.
[1:01:53] Speaker 2: He went to Duke.
[1:01:54] Speaker 1: He went to Duke. You ain't even got to be
[1:01:56] Speaker 1: white and go to Duke. Just to be clear, R.J.
[1:01:58] Speaker 1: Barrett ain't washed the Duke off yet, for God's sake. Right.
[1:02:01] Speaker 1: Like you ain't even got to do that. We have
[1:02:03] Speaker 1: not even gotten around to be like, man, fuck this dude.
[1:02:06] Speaker 1: And we should. He went to Duke. He don't seem
[1:02:10] Speaker 1: like fully one of them, but I tell you this,
[1:02:12] Speaker 1: Kyle Knipple, you got a lot to overcome with me, buddy.
[1:02:16] Speaker 2: Hey, don't forget the Charlotte Hornets. You know how mad
[1:02:18] Speaker 2: they were that they didn't get the number one overall pick?
[1:02:20] Speaker 2: They drafted not just his teammate, Kyle Knipple, but his
[1:02:24] Speaker 2: Montverde teammate in Liam McNeely, like the kid from UConn.
[1:02:29] Speaker 2: And by the way, before the draft, they were showing
[1:02:32] Speaker 2: this video on ESPN where they were like, here's the
[1:02:36] Speaker 2: McNeely kid. where he and Cooper Flagg were hanging out
[1:02:42] Speaker 2: and just like laughing in a photo shoot. And I
[1:02:44] Speaker 2: was like, oh, that's nice. Cooper Flagg and his twin brother.
[1:02:47] Speaker 2: That's pretty cool.
[1:02:48] Speaker 3: What a time.
[1:02:50] Speaker 2: I was just losing. I was like, man, that kid
[1:02:53] Speaker 2: looks so much like that Cooper Flagg. I thought it
[1:02:56] Speaker 2: was his brother. And I'm a white dude saying that.
[1:02:58] Speaker 2: So you could do that.
[1:02:59] Speaker 1: Hey, look, man, I had the situation with them Harper boys.
[1:03:02] Speaker 1: I was like, yo, which one of these is the
[1:03:06] Speaker 1: basketball player? They can swap them boys out. Dylan Harper
[1:03:10] Speaker 1: and apparently it's Ron Harper Jr. Man, they could be
[1:03:13] Speaker 1: out here like I always thought the Morris's could do
[1:03:14] Speaker 1: because the Morris's used to have the same tattoos also.
[1:03:17] Speaker 1: They could have easily just been sliding it out. I'm
[1:03:20] Speaker 1: glad since they got on TV, one of them got
[1:03:21] Speaker 1: a cut and one of them got the hair because otherwise,
[1:03:23] Speaker 1: how the fuck am I supposed to know?
[1:03:26] Speaker 3: Nope.
[1:03:27] Speaker 2: I don't even want to try. And I'm a twit.
[1:03:29] Speaker 2: twin sister, but I'm a twin. I should be pretty
[1:03:32] Speaker 2: good at this. I should be pretty good at figuring
[1:03:34] Speaker 2: out who's who. Not with the Morris twins. I have
[1:03:37] Speaker 2: a hard time when one of them is on ESPN.
[1:03:39] Speaker 2: I'm like, is that Marquis or is that Marcus? Without
[1:03:42] Speaker 2: that little nameplate on the screen, I wouldn't be able
[1:03:44] Speaker 2: to tell you.
[1:03:46] Speaker 1: Tom Haberstroh. Check out Tom the Finder, his newsletter on Substack. Also,
[1:03:50] Speaker 1: check him out at Yahoo Sports. Definitely check out his
[1:03:53] Speaker 1: story about the effects of being the son of a
[1:03:55] Speaker 1: pro on your draft stock or how that may actually
[1:03:58] Speaker 1: somehow be an undervalued resource.
[1:04:00] Speaker 2: Thank you for that. And I appreciate it.
[1:04:02] Speaker 1: And now.
[1:04:03] Speaker 2: Charlotte Hornets, let's see what this conknipple kid can do.
[1:04:06] Speaker 2: I hope it's better than the rest of that UNC
[1:04:09] Speaker 2: and Duke line. It just keeps happening. No other team
[1:04:13] Speaker 2: in the NBA has drafted more UNC or Duke products
[1:04:16] Speaker 2: since 1989 than your Charlotte Hornets. How about that?
[1:04:20] Speaker 1: And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us
[1:04:22] Speaker 1: here on The Right Time. We do this three times
[1:04:26] Speaker 1: a week. Hit the voicemail line 323-596-7767. The best fight
[1:04:31] Speaker 1: you've ever seen in a pickup basketball game.
[1:04:35] Speaker 3: 323-596-7767.
[1:04:36] Speaker 1: Remember, follow The Right Time. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us. Oh,
[1:04:40] Speaker 1: Ry probably handles everything behind the scenes.
[1:04:42] Speaker 3: Thank you, sir.
[1:04:42] Speaker 1: Remember, follow The Right Time. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us.
[1:04:45] Speaker 1: Give us five stars. You only give us four stars.
[1:04:47] Speaker 1: I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. We'll talk
[1:04:49] Speaker 1: to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy.

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