# Pat Forde on Crazy Dan Hurley, Billy Donovan to UNC Rumors, Will Wade to LSU | 04.01

An episode of [The Right Time with Bomani Jones](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/982639043), 1 Apr 2026, 51 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/370fc844-36bd-4f61-8b8f-b4bb010de39a/b4c89e61-337d-4317-8c9f-b4bb0114ecb2/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=919a7cbe-003c-4146-b592-b4bb010de3a5

UConn might quietly be the real dynasty of 21st-century college basketball. Bomani Jones is joined by Pat Forde (SI.com) to break down a loaded Final Four, explain how UConn’s six titles in 27 years put the Huskies in their own tier, and explore how Dan Hurley became the sport’s new “fun jerk” on the sideline. They also get into why this Final Four (Arizona, Michigan, UConn, Illinois) is so strong top to bottom. Later, they discuss the North Carolina job, Hubert Davis’ exit, and why Billy Donovan & Tommy Lloyd sit at the center of the rumor mill. Finally, they dig into the Will Wade/LSU saga, why “shame has left the building” in Baton Rouge, and how LSU has done shockingly little with an all-time lineup of NBA-level talent, and defend Jon Scheyer's brief tenure, and why the panic is still premature Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A wave original.
[0:09] Speaker 1: My name is Beaumont Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
[0:11] Speaker 1: get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like,
[0:15] Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
[0:18] Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
[0:20] Speaker 1: a hater. It is that time of week where we
[0:22] Speaker 1: have a guest join us, coming to us from SI.com.
[0:27] Speaker 1: It is final four week with the weekend coming up.
[0:29] Speaker 1: Pat Forty, what's going on?
[0:31] Speaker 2: Hey, Bo. Great to be on with you. Should be
[0:34] Speaker 2: a great Final Four. I know that you may still
[0:37] Speaker 2: be highly amused and enjoying the demise of Duke, but
[0:43] Speaker 2: the rest of us certainly were amazed by that shot
[0:46] Speaker 2: and that story as well.
[0:47] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
[0:47] Speaker 1: It's going to take everything in me to wait until
[0:49] Speaker 1: the second half of the show to talk about what's
[0:52] Speaker 1: going on there.
[0:53] Speaker 3: It was a good day for a lot of people, man.
[0:54] Speaker 3: It was actually interesting.
[0:57] Speaker 1: Was it Chris Vannini at The Athletic?
[0:59] Speaker 3: He had hit me up.
[1:00] Speaker 1: It was funny because I became aware of him because
[1:03] Speaker 1: I used to send out a tweet every year to
[1:06] Speaker 1: be like, hey, tell me who's covering these teams for
[1:08] Speaker 1: college papers, because that's a great way to find who's
[1:11] Speaker 1: going to be next. I met my good buddy John
[1:12] Speaker 1: Jones at CBS, for example, was doing that.
[1:15] Speaker 3: And Chris was at Michigan State at the time.
[1:17] Speaker 1: And then he hits me and says, hey, I'm doing
[1:19] Speaker 1: this story about whether people hate Duke as much as
[1:21] Speaker 1: they used to.
[1:22] Speaker 3: You want to talk about it? And I was like, okay, cool.
[1:23] Speaker 1: We can talk about it. And I told him I
[1:25] Speaker 1: thought it had died down. But I was somewhat incorrect.
[1:28] Speaker 1: That being said, I am disappointed a little bit that
[1:30] Speaker 1: they're not in this Final Four. But this is a
[1:32] Speaker 1: strong Final Four. I feel like we've got with Arizona, Michigan, UConn,
[1:37] Speaker 1: and Illinois.
[1:38] Speaker 2: It's great. It's a really good Final Four. I think
[1:41] Speaker 2: on the one side you have– Two of the three
[1:44] Speaker 2: dominant teams for the whole season in Arizona and Michigan.
[1:48] Speaker 2: The third one, hmm, oh, we know what happened to them.
[1:51] Speaker 2: But you got, I think, outstanding teams with very few
[1:55] Speaker 2: weaknesses and they're going to play each other. And I
[1:57] Speaker 2: think the winner of that will win the championship. But
[2:00] Speaker 2: on the other side, you have the dominant program of
[2:02] Speaker 2: the 21st century, UConn, and also winner of two of
[2:06] Speaker 2: the last three national championships and getting there on an
[2:10] Speaker 2: all-time play and shot. And then you got an Illinois
[2:13] Speaker 2: team that's been outstanding all season as well. Number one
[2:17] Speaker 2: offense in the country in the analytics. Some people say
[2:20] Speaker 2: the number one offense analytically of all time with the,
[2:23] Speaker 2: you know, Balkan invasion of players from Europe there. It's
[2:28] Speaker 2: fascinating to me. You've got, you know, the Big Ten's
[2:31] Speaker 2: chance to finally break through and win a championship, which
[2:34] Speaker 2: I think has been almost as much a matter of mere, like,
[2:38] Speaker 2: coincidence as any real fundamental weakness there. And we can
[2:41] Speaker 2: talk about that. But you've got, again, the UConn, the
[2:45] Speaker 2: dominant brand out there. And you've got the possibility of
[2:49] Speaker 2: Arizona winning a championship again for the first time since 1997,
[2:53] Speaker 2: also in Indianapolis. So there's a lot to chew on.
[2:56] Speaker 2: All right.
[2:56] Speaker 1: So I want to start with UConn because you just
[2:59] Speaker 1: said something that. It's an interesting discussion, which is UConn
[3:03] Speaker 1: as the most dominant program of the 21st century, which
[3:07] Speaker 1: is interesting because it has not been the most consistent
[3:10] Speaker 1: program of the 21st century, right? So, like, North Carolina,
[3:14] Speaker 1: for example, has basically been 50, 60 years of consistency.
[3:19] Speaker 1: There have been a couple of blips here and there,
[3:21] Speaker 1: but by and large, they're the most spoiled fans in
[3:23] Speaker 1: sports because the floor has been so high decade after
[3:28] Speaker 1: decade after decade. But quietly, UConn has won six national
[3:33] Speaker 1: championships with three different coaches in the last 26 years.
[3:38] Speaker 1: I think this is the 27th we're talking about because
[3:40] Speaker 1: they won the first one in 1999 with no actual
[3:44] Speaker 1: factual built-in advantage as to why they should have been
[3:48] Speaker 1: so successful.
[3:49] Speaker 3: But they have.
[3:51] Speaker 1: But it doesn't feel like they are what you have
[3:53] Speaker 1: described except the fact they've won six national championships in
[3:57] Speaker 1: 27 years. Yeah.
[3:59] Speaker 2: In a period in which Carolina's won three, Duke's won three, right?
[4:03] Speaker 2: They've literally doubled them in that period of time. So
[4:07] Speaker 2: if you grant them the grace period to go back
[4:09] Speaker 2: to 99 and start there and go forward, in terms
[4:13] Speaker 2: of hardware, yeah. Now your point is absolutely right in
[4:16] Speaker 2: terms of the consistency where, you know, Duke and Carolina
[4:19] Speaker 2: have been to plenty of Final Fours, but not one. Right.
[4:22] Speaker 2: You can't either go to the Final Four and win
[4:23] Speaker 2: it all, or they don't go to the Final Four.
[4:25] Speaker 2: And sometimes they crash out early. Sometimes they don't make
[4:27] Speaker 2: the tournament. Sometimes they're on probation, whatever. But to have
[4:33] Speaker 2: done it with three different coaches, as you said, poor
[4:36] Speaker 2: Kevin Olley, he just kind of gets flyover. It's like Calhoun, Hurley. Oh, yeah,
[4:42] Speaker 2: there was that one title in 2014 when everyone was
[4:44] Speaker 2: terrible and you guys won it. Um, it's, it's remarkable.
[4:48] Speaker 2: It really is. And like you said, no built-in advantages.
[4:51] Speaker 2: People have been to stores. No, there are no built-in
[4:54] Speaker 2: advantages there. And by whatever miracle, they were able to
[4:59] Speaker 2: get kids from Houston and Los Angeles and Seattle to
[5:02] Speaker 2: come to stores. I don't know, but I mean, they
[5:06] Speaker 2: built some powerful teams with some great players over a
[5:09] Speaker 2: long period of time.
[5:10] Speaker 1: Yeah, and the Kevin Olley flyover is interesting because it
[5:14] Speaker 1: was a weird year in 2014, right? Because part of
[5:17] Speaker 1: it was that was the year Kansas had Embiid and
[5:20] Speaker 1: Embiid got hurt and they wound up losing the second round.
[5:23] Speaker 3: Wichita State was undefeated.
[5:25] Speaker 2: And then.
[5:27] Speaker 1: You could have made a documentary about it if they
[5:28] Speaker 1: had won. That was the year of that Kentucky team
[5:31] Speaker 1: that barely made the tournament, but they were loaded. And
[5:34] Speaker 1: then they kind of screwed Wichita State over because they
[5:36] Speaker 1: had a made-for-TV round of 32 game, but they won
[5:39] Speaker 1: every game by a point or two, a point or two,
[5:42] Speaker 1: a point or two. And then they got up against
[5:44] Speaker 1: this UConn team, the Shabazz Napier team, that nobody thought
[5:48] Speaker 1: was that good. And next thing you know, they were
[5:51] Speaker 1: national champions. Then you fast forward to Hurley, and look,
[5:55] Speaker 1: Calhoun to me, is the most underrated of the great
[5:58] Speaker 1: coaches of that time for all the reasons that we
[6:01] Speaker 1: just spelled out. Like even getting UConn competitive before the title,
[6:04] Speaker 1: like starting really in 1990 in that era of the
[6:07] Speaker 1: Big East, again, with no advantages, right? Because I think
[6:11] Speaker 1: eventually they became kind of a go-to program in the Northeast,
[6:14] Speaker 1: but it had to become that. And they weren't that,
[6:16] Speaker 1: but they still had that team I think where Christian
[6:18] Speaker 1: Layton to beat him with the shot in 1990, the
[6:20] Speaker 1: Tate George team, but you get the Ray Allen team
[6:23] Speaker 1: in 1996, you've got all these others. And now you
[6:25] Speaker 1: get Hurley and Hurley and Calhoun. They don't care if
[6:29] Speaker 1: we like them, they're just going to win some games.
[6:32] Speaker 1: And it's good that they don't care if we like
[6:33] Speaker 1: them because they make it really difficult.
[6:36] Speaker 2: Yes, they do. And Calhoun always did. I mean, part
[6:40] Speaker 2: of what made him good was he was so pugnacious
[6:45] Speaker 2: all the time with everyone. You know, I mean, that
[6:49] Speaker 2: dude was hard to get along with and also very
[6:52] Speaker 2: hard to beat because he was so hard to get
[6:54] Speaker 2: along with. He refused to accept anything other than, you know,
[6:58] Speaker 2: I'm going to get the best players and then I'm
[6:59] Speaker 2: going to beat you. So he was a force of nature. And, yeah,
[7:04] Speaker 2: to have done it there, they had no history, no tradition,
[7:08] Speaker 2: none of that. Come in and see our banners up here.
[7:10] Speaker 2: You know, they had none. And then all of a
[7:13] Speaker 2: sudden the switch flips in the 90s, and then by 99–
[7:17] Speaker 2: When they beat, at that time, people were saying that
[7:20] Speaker 2: Duke team was one of the greatest teams of all time.
[7:21] Speaker 3: And it was.
[7:23] Speaker 2: It was a wagon. Helton Brand and Trajan Langdon and whoever. Anyway,
[7:28] Speaker 2: but then since then, yeah, incredible. And then the Dan
[7:31] Speaker 2: Hurley thing has been unbelievable. And he is a phenomenal coach.
[7:36] Speaker 2: And he is very much like Calhoun in terms of like,
[7:39] Speaker 2: he rides that ragged edge between I'm going to coach
[7:43] Speaker 2: or I'm going to fight. Like, I mean, talk about
[7:46] Speaker 2: being on that edge. I still cannot believe he did
[7:49] Speaker 2: what he did with Roger Ayers, the official. You have
[7:52] Speaker 2: just had this massive shot to win one of the
[7:55] Speaker 2: biggest games of your life. And your reaction after pulling
[7:59] Speaker 2: your coat half off of your body is to then
[8:02] Speaker 2: get in the face, face to face with Roger Ayers
[8:05] Speaker 2: and almost like provoke a confrontation. Roger Ayers, I think
[8:09] Speaker 2: it is very fortunate for Danny Hurley. The Roger Ayers
[8:13] Speaker 2: is not the guy to make a scene and is
[8:15] Speaker 2: not going to afterwards say, yeah, he shouldn't have done that.
[8:18] Speaker 2: In fact, he'll go the other way and say, no,
[8:19] Speaker 2: that was my fault. I shouldn't have been this way,
[8:21] Speaker 2: you know, but what are you, what is possibly going
[8:25] Speaker 2: on in his mind at that point? What are you doing?
[8:29] Speaker 3: He's a crazy person.
[8:30] Speaker 1: And I have to say, and I've talked about this
[8:31] Speaker 1: on other shows.
[8:33] Speaker 3: I'm glad we got one of these back, right?
[8:34] Speaker 1: Like coaches have gotten kind.
[8:36] Speaker 3: Of boring, right?
[8:37] Speaker 1: Like he doesn't seem to go all the way into
[8:40] Speaker 1: the full night territory where we're having now a completely
[8:43] Speaker 1: different discussion about what it is. But no, this is,
[8:46] Speaker 1: he's that guy. Because Calhoun, Calhoun wasn't a fun jerk.
[8:51] Speaker 1: He was just kind of an obvious jerk, right? Like
[8:54] Speaker 1: Hurley is walk out the tunnel and boo him.
[8:57] Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
[8:58] Speaker 1: You know, we, we, we don't have a lot of
[9:00] Speaker 1: those guys left. And also you hit it, man. It's
[9:03] Speaker 1: a really, really good coach. Like there's, there's no way
[9:06] Speaker 1: around this in this team, which it kind of struggled
[9:08] Speaker 1: to hold it together all year. And he's, he said
[9:10] Speaker 1: it would get better.
[9:12] Speaker 3: It got better.
[9:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he's, he's a, he's a brilliant coach and
[9:16] Speaker 2: outstanding coach. His father, you know, I think is one
[9:19] Speaker 2: of the great pure basketball coaches ever at Jersey city, St. Anthony's,
[9:23] Speaker 2: you know, he just, he stayed at the high school level.
[9:25] Speaker 2: And Dan, I think, is not far from him in
[9:27] Speaker 2: a lot of ways. Ability to motivate, ability to X
[9:31] Speaker 2: and O and strategize and those sorts of things. And then, yeah,
[9:35] Speaker 2: you're right. He is the fun jerk. Because he does,
[9:38] Speaker 2: he is a magnet for everything, for praise, for criticism.
[9:43] Speaker 2: And he's like, bring it on. I don't care. And
[9:46] Speaker 2: then eventually, the hilarious thing, what kills me, Bo, is.
[9:51] Speaker 2: Like every single year, maybe once, maybe twice, maybe even
[9:55] Speaker 2: three times a year, Danny will have this self-actualization moment
[9:59] Speaker 2: and say, yeah, you know, I need to do things
[10:01] Speaker 2: differently and I've lit candles and I do some yoga
[10:05] Speaker 2: and this sort of thing. And so I think, no, no,
[10:08] Speaker 2: you're the same wild man all the time. You can
[10:12] Speaker 2: say it, but it doesn't matter. You're the same wild man.
[10:16] Speaker 2: And that's just the way he's wired. And it's great
[10:18] Speaker 2: for the sport, frankly.
[10:19] Speaker 3: Let me tell you a bizarre world I just thought of.
[10:22] Speaker 1: Like, what if he had been the one to go
[10:24] Speaker 1: to Duke and Bobby had been the one to go
[10:26] Speaker 1: somewhere else? Because Bobby does not take to that. Like,
[10:31] Speaker 1: after being coached by his father, Krzyzewski could not quite
[10:34] Speaker 1: deal with Hurley the way he dealt with everybody else
[10:37] Speaker 1: because of what it was. And if you haven't read
[10:38] Speaker 1: Adrian Wojnarowski's book, The Miracle of St. Anthony, it's worth
[10:41] Speaker 1: checking out. And I felt like it soft-pelled a little
[10:44] Speaker 1: bit the intensity of Bob Hurley Sr.
[10:47] Speaker 3: As coach.
[10:47] Speaker 1: But if you had put Hurley and Krzyzewski together, I mean, look,
[10:52] Speaker 1: Hurley did enough to himself.
[10:54] Speaker 3: When he was in college, just being over the top
[10:57] Speaker 3: about this.
[10:58] Speaker 2: He did.
[11:00] Speaker 3: Illinois, I watched them.
[11:01] Speaker 1: And it's funny you talked about the Balkans because I
[11:03] Speaker 1: talked about on this show. Chicago is a very Eastern
[11:06] Speaker 1: European city. And it was the first time that I
[11:08] Speaker 1: looked out and was like, hey, you guys may have
[11:09] Speaker 1: been missing out on a little advantage you guys might
[11:12] Speaker 1: have had going around there. But that game against Iowa,
[11:15] Speaker 1: which I thought the final score did.
[11:17] Speaker 3: Not indicate it.
[11:17] Speaker 1: That was a really good game. And they had to
[11:19] Speaker 1: really keep it together in order to win that game. Like,
[11:21] Speaker 1: what do you think their chances are against UConn?
[11:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they're better than UConn. We'll see if
[11:26] Speaker 2: they're as well coached and kind of still have that
[11:29] Speaker 2: championship DNA, you know, that Alex Caravan-led team will probably have.
[11:34] Speaker 2: But I think Illinois is better. Yes, the game against
[11:38] Speaker 2: Iowa impressed me because in the past, Brad Underwood teams
[11:42] Speaker 2: have found a moment in the tournament where they'll just
[11:46] Speaker 2: freak out and melt down. If you remember... I think
[11:51] Speaker 2: it was against Duke in the regional final a couple
[11:53] Speaker 2: of years ago where they were outscored like 100 to
[11:56] Speaker 2: nothing to start the second half. It's like a good
[11:58] Speaker 2: game and all of a sudden it is the worst
[11:59] Speaker 2: game you've ever watched. And you're like, Illinois should just
[12:02] Speaker 2: leave the floor. Just give up, go get your stuff
[12:04] Speaker 2: and get on the bus. Before that, they lost to Loyola, Illinois, Loyola,
[12:10] Speaker 2: Chicago in the second round with a really good team.
[12:14] Speaker 2: So to break through, I think to win that game
[12:16] Speaker 2: in some stressful situations against a coach that was just
[12:20] Speaker 2: going to make you play his aggravating slow style was impressive.
[12:24] Speaker 2: And the way they did it, they just, they pounded
[12:27] Speaker 2: their advantage, man. They just took it inside with their
[12:29] Speaker 2: two seven footers and their six nine guy and just
[12:32] Speaker 2: went to the rim and made it happen. And I
[12:36] Speaker 2: think they're equipped certainly to win one game, possibly to
[12:40] Speaker 2: win two in Indy. If you catch, a worn-out opponent
[12:46] Speaker 2: in the Monday night game, which has happened before. Five-slam
[12:49] Speaker 2: at JAMA against North Carolina State. Wisconsin, I think, in
[12:52] Speaker 2: 2015 against Duke after beating undefeated Kentucky. It's hard to
[12:57] Speaker 2: have 80 minutes of max intensity at the Final Four.
[13:01] Speaker 1: It is a different world, obviously, now, but Illinois is
[13:05] Speaker 1: such an interesting program historically where one could argue the
[13:09] Speaker 1: great underachiever That given a lot of the advantages that
[13:13] Speaker 1: one would have expected that they had, especially when the
[13:15] Speaker 1: game was a lot more regional, that this is a
[13:18] Speaker 1: team that has been to so few Final Fours historically.
[13:23] Speaker 1: But I feel like we're out of time as much
[13:25] Speaker 1: as anything else.
[13:26] Speaker 3: You can sneak one, right? Like just about anybody can
[13:29] Speaker 3: sneak one.
[13:30] Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah. No, absolutely. Yes, it could be done. And that, yeah,
[13:34] Speaker 2: like the 2005 team was an outstanding team. They just
[13:37] Speaker 2: ran into an outstanding North Carolina team in a great game.
[13:41] Speaker 2: One of the, I think, underrated championship games. The 1989
[13:44] Speaker 2: team that lost to Michigan. Michigan wins the title. That
[13:48] Speaker 2: took a putback shot by Sean Higgins at the final
[13:51] Speaker 2: couple seconds for Michigan to win that. Those were good
[13:55] Speaker 2: Illinois teams. Historically, you're 100% correct. The school, with that
[13:59] Speaker 2: proximity to Chicago and other great areas of basketball, has
[14:05] Speaker 2: produced zero national championships is crazy. But... I think the
[14:10] Speaker 2: program is positioned now. Hey, yes, you're going to Croatia
[14:14] Speaker 2: and Serbia, wherever you got to go to get guys.
[14:16] Speaker 2: But they're getting guys and they've got a program that's built,
[14:20] Speaker 2: I think, for the long haul.
[14:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of those programs that has it's like
[14:24] Speaker 1: Coach Legend, who was really good at ball rolling.
[14:29] Speaker 3: You know, your alma mater got one of those. A
[14:34] Speaker 3: ball roller's name, I believe, is on the court. But
[14:37] Speaker 3: it was always fun to watch him.
[14:39] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's funny, you know, like
[14:43] Speaker 2: as a Missouri alum, people think Norm Strode was Bob
[14:46] Speaker 2: Knight in terms of tactical genius. No, no. I hate
[14:50] Speaker 2: to inform you that was not the case. It was
[14:52] Speaker 2: the best teams had very good players and still never
[14:55] Speaker 2: made a Final Four. So, yeah, man.
[14:58] Speaker 3: So we got the other game. Michigan, Arizona is very interesting.
[15:02] Speaker 1: One. Michigan, at their best, looks just about as good
[15:06] Speaker 1: as anybody can, in part because they've got a guy
[15:09] Speaker 1: in his physical prime at 37 years old bringing the
[15:12] Speaker 1: ball up the floor every time.
[15:14] Speaker 3: But he looked– the axle, he looked dominant over the weekend.
[15:18] Speaker 2: It was unbelievable. Like, that guy– that's why I said,
[15:21] Speaker 2: you know, I mean– It was pretty clear, I think,
[15:24] Speaker 2: most people thought Boozer was the best player this year.
[15:27] Speaker 2: There's no doubt who's the best player still playing. It's
[15:29] Speaker 2: Yaxa Lindemore. He's 23 years old, three years of JUCO,
[15:33] Speaker 2: Arizona Western, two years of UAB. And then talk about
[15:39] Speaker 2: going to the right place at the right time. Holy cow.
[15:43] Speaker 2: Him with Dusty May has been a lethal combination. And
[15:46] Speaker 2: he's showing the full arsenal now. You know, he was
[15:49] Speaker 2: just like wild man, offensive rebounder at UAB. Now the
[15:54] Speaker 2: offensive game is incredible running the floor. And with the
[15:59] Speaker 2: guys that are around him, he's just a perfect fit there. And,
[16:03] Speaker 2: and he's playing great. And yeah, I mean, Michigan is,
[16:06] Speaker 2: is just crushing people again. They, they, they were doing
[16:09] Speaker 2: that early in the year and then, you know, people,
[16:12] Speaker 2: it's the big 10. You're not going to crush everybody,
[16:14] Speaker 2: but then what they've done in the tournament has been
[16:17] Speaker 2: extremely impressive. And I actually, I tweeted, I think it
[16:21] Speaker 2: was December 13th. I said, I'm tempted to take Michigan
[16:27] Speaker 2: and Arizona against the field. One of the few times
[16:30] Speaker 2: I may actually be right, I still could end up
[16:32] Speaker 2: being wrong, but those two teams I think have been
[16:35] Speaker 2: that good all year.
[16:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, in watching the game that Michigan played against Tennessee,
[16:42] Speaker 1: and I mean, Tennessee was just overmatched. As much as
[16:46] Speaker 1: I love to get off a good Rick Barnes joke,
[16:48] Speaker 1: I don't think that there was anything that Rick Barnes
[16:50] Speaker 1: could have possibly... Rick Barnes, by the way, has gotten
[16:52] Speaker 1: into three straight Elite Eights. Let's just throw that out
[16:55] Speaker 1: there for those of us who are always kind of like, eh,
[16:57] Speaker 1: I don't know about that guy. Okay, sometimes you just
[17:01] Speaker 1: need 35 years, right? Before you, you know, really hit
[17:03] Speaker 1: your stride and get to the place that you're supposed
[17:05] Speaker 1: to be.
[17:06] Speaker 2: But.
[17:08] Speaker 1: The way that Landenborg played, I didn't even realize he
[17:10] Speaker 1: was a big man in the way that he's just
[17:12] Speaker 1: getting the ball, facing up, taking it to the basket
[17:16] Speaker 1: with a coach that if Florida Atlantic doesn't go on.
[17:18] Speaker 3: That run, I don't know where he is. Like it
[17:21] Speaker 3: was all like, like.
[17:22] Speaker 1: That was another one where it's kind of like, you know,
[17:23] Speaker 1: that was a pretty ambitious hire that you made considering
[17:26] Speaker 1: there wasn't that much of a track record and it's
[17:28] Speaker 1: clearly paid off.
[17:30] Speaker 2: Oh yeah. No, Dusty Mays is a superstar, man. It's unbelievable.
[17:34] Speaker 2: And yeah, like the first couple of years at, at, uh,
[17:38] Speaker 2: at FAU were not very good, but the program sucked and,
[17:41] Speaker 2: you know, he didn't have anything. And then all of
[17:43] Speaker 2: a sudden he puts together this team 2023 and you're
[17:46] Speaker 2: watching them. And I thought they were just phenomenal. It
[17:49] Speaker 2: was just like, how did they go from zero to
[17:51] Speaker 2: a hundred like this? And then he kept most of
[17:54] Speaker 2: them for the next year. And they were really good
[17:56] Speaker 2: in 2024 as well, made the tournament again. Uh, and I,
[17:59] Speaker 2: I really, I was a believer in Dusty and, and boy,
[18:02] Speaker 2: the market was very hot for him. Michigan outflanked, uh, Louisville,
[18:08] Speaker 2: Louisville wanted him badly. Vanderbilt was in on it. Ohio
[18:12] Speaker 2: State made a fateful decision to keep Jake Diebler interim coach.
[18:18] Speaker 2: When I think that's who would have had interest in
[18:20] Speaker 2: that job. And he goes to your arch rival and
[18:22] Speaker 2: takes the arch rival to the final four. An elite
[18:25] Speaker 2: eight in the first year, final four in the second year.
[18:27] Speaker 2: Not bad.
[18:28] Speaker 3: By the way, that was him.
[18:29] Speaker 2: Oh, one other thing. Sorry to interrupt. Indiana made the
[18:33] Speaker 2: fateful decision to keep Mike Woodson at the behest of
[18:36] Speaker 2: some interested alums, including Quinn Buckner, instead of getting rid
[18:40] Speaker 2: of him when they could have brought Dusty May home.
[18:44] Speaker 2: And they didn't. And he goes again. He goes to
[18:46] Speaker 2: a Big Ten rival.
[18:47] Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a run number one.
[18:48] Speaker 1: That was a great year to be the number one
[18:50] Speaker 1: guy to try to hire. Let's just throw that part
[18:53] Speaker 1: out there. The names that you throw out all looking
[18:55] Speaker 1: for coaches or potentially looking for coaches at the same time.
[18:58] Speaker 3: Big win for that guy. You would also mention that.
[19:01] Speaker 1: Earlier, the Big Ten, or just the larger discussion of
[19:04] Speaker 1: the Big Ten, because if we're talking... 10 years ago,
[19:07] Speaker 1: I think is even safe to say 15 is even safer.
[19:10] Speaker 1: The big 10 in both football and men's basketball, big
[19:14] Speaker 1: name results.
[19:16] Speaker 3: Not quite right.
[19:17] Speaker 1: It was, it was, but it was truly a quaint
[19:20] Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, a quaint regional conference.
[19:22] Speaker 3: They enjoy playing against each other. It had always been
[19:24] Speaker 3: the concern, but the.
[19:26] Speaker 1: Money game has changed up so much. And now they
[19:29] Speaker 1: are an absolute force in everything.
[19:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no doubt about it. Women's basketball and other
[19:35] Speaker 2: sports as well. But yeah, the money has changed things
[19:39] Speaker 2: for sure. You know, the streak of no title since 2000, hey,
[19:45] Speaker 2: it's a thing for real. They had a lot of chances.
[19:48] Speaker 2: They had that good Illinois team. I mentioned.
[19:50] Speaker 4: Yes.
[19:51] Speaker 2: In 05. They had... Good Michigan teams that ran into
[19:55] Speaker 2: Louisville and Villanova. They had Wisconsin in 2015. Ohio State
[20:00] Speaker 2: with Greg Oden that ran into the second year of
[20:03] Speaker 2: the Florida dynasty. So they had chances. They just didn't
[20:07] Speaker 2: have the best team. This year, it looks very much
[20:09] Speaker 2: like they might have the best team, unless Arizona says otherwise.
[20:13] Speaker 2: And this season, I thought it was by far the
[20:15] Speaker 2: best league. So you combine what they're doing right now
[20:19] Speaker 2: with what the football has done with three different champions
[20:22] Speaker 2: in three different years. And you look at the revenue,
[20:26] Speaker 2: going back to when they brought in those schools, they
[20:29] Speaker 2: killed the Pac-12 and juiced up the media contracts. It's
[20:35] Speaker 2: been a game changer.
[20:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, and doing what you can to beef up the
[20:38] Speaker 1: middle of the conference matters in things like Nebraska being good.
[20:43] Speaker 1: Because I think they have been down for so long,
[20:45] Speaker 1: but it's easy to forget. Like Danny Knee in the
[20:48] Speaker 1: 90s had a team there that consistently made it to
[20:51] Speaker 1: the NCAA tournament. Back when the game was to get
[20:53] Speaker 1: you a coach that was from New York and had
[20:55] Speaker 1: a line to New York, and there were always boys
[20:57] Speaker 1: that needed to get far away from home. Look, Nebraska's
[21:01] Speaker 1: whole recruiting strategy in football and basketball for decades was,
[21:06] Speaker 1: We could keep them out of trouble.
[21:08] Speaker 3: Send them all the way over here. We could keep
[21:10] Speaker 3: them out of trouble.
[21:12] Speaker 2: Didn't always work in football in terms of keeping them
[21:14] Speaker 2: out of trouble, but they still won a lot of games.
[21:17] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the problem.
[21:18] Speaker 1: When you get a bunch of people that are supposed
[21:19] Speaker 1: to be kept out of trouble, they get each other
[21:21] Speaker 1: into trouble once they wind up in the same place.
[21:25] Speaker 3: But I think you're right.
[21:25] Speaker 1: Like adding UCLA and, you know, the weirdest program to
[21:28] Speaker 1: evaluate how good they should or should not be based
[21:31] Speaker 1: on history and everything else. but you add them to
[21:34] Speaker 1: your basketball conference, you're going to get better. And this
[21:37] Speaker 1: is at a time right now where Maryland, which should
[21:39] Speaker 1: be better at everything, but Maryland's at the bottom of
[21:42] Speaker 1: the conference now.
[21:43] Speaker 3: Indiana, which I don't know.
[21:44] Speaker 1: About you, but I always feel like it could still happen, right?
[21:47] Speaker 1: Like this is, it's, the idea that Indiana is no
[21:51] Speaker 1: longer a blue blood, one, I don't think that's how
[21:52] Speaker 1: blue blood stuff works, but two, the right person can
[21:56] Speaker 1: make that job go because they care so much.
[21:58] Speaker 2: A hundred percent. They care. That's it. And that's, you know,
[22:01] Speaker 2: it's like, Texas football, eventually you get the right guy
[22:05] Speaker 2: and it all works, right? I mean, I absolutely believe
[22:08] Speaker 2: it will happen. There's still so many players there. Braylon Mullins,
[22:11] Speaker 2: the shot makers from Greenfield, Indiana. Kyle Guy on the
[22:16] Speaker 2: Virginia National Championship team is from Indianapolis. John L. Davis
[22:21] Speaker 2: from the Florida Atlantic Final Four team is from Gary.
[22:24] Speaker 2: All the Purdue guys are from Indiana. If Indiana gets
[22:28] Speaker 2: some of those guys with the right coach, if you're
[22:30] Speaker 2: recruiting right, and then you're coaching them right, you're there.
[22:34] Speaker 2: There's players in that state. There still are, there always
[22:37] Speaker 2: will be, and they want to win. They want to
[22:39] Speaker 2: be good.
[22:39] Speaker 1: I mean, we have, I remember, I think it was
[22:41] Speaker 1: a Mike Davis left that job.
[22:43] Speaker 3: It was a column that you wrote.
[22:44] Speaker 1: That was just, let's run through all the guys from
[22:46] Speaker 1: Indiana that if they played for you, Indiana, Indiana would
[22:48] Speaker 1: be the number one team in America. Like you could
[22:50] Speaker 1: do that for the last 20 years. And they used
[22:53] Speaker 1: to get them. That was the thing about it. Even
[22:55] Speaker 1: if half of them go to Purdue, like this is
[22:58] Speaker 1: a place that still produces players. And if you get
[23:00] Speaker 1: the money, right, these guys, you said it, they want
[23:03] Speaker 1: to stay like that. That's where they want to be.
[23:06] Speaker 2: Sure. And that's like Braylon Mullins. Going to UConn, who
[23:09] Speaker 2: can blame a guy for going to UConn right now?
[23:11] Speaker 2: But if Indiana were on top of its stuff, I
[23:13] Speaker 2: would have to think he would have stayed and gone
[23:16] Speaker 2: to school at IU.
[23:17] Speaker 3: No, absolutely.
[23:18] Speaker 1: Now, Arizona right fast, they're going to grind it out, right?
[23:22] Speaker 1: They're the team that's decided we're going to play this
[23:25] Speaker 1: style of basketball. I think it was Tommy Lloyd that
[23:27] Speaker 1: made the interesting point that in this day and age,
[23:30] Speaker 1: the game now is less about trying to shoot a
[23:32] Speaker 1: bunch of threes than getting– good twos because the good
[23:35] Speaker 1: teams are going to be physically superior to their competition.
[23:38] Speaker 3: And that's, that's, that's the game.
[23:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean, that's, that's it. They have just said,
[23:43] Speaker 2: you know what we are, we're going to play to
[23:46] Speaker 2: our strength and our strength is we're huge and we're
[23:49] Speaker 2: physical and we're going to get good shots. We're going
[23:52] Speaker 2: to get better shots than you are. And then we're
[23:54] Speaker 2: going to defend your good shots. And that's, you know,
[23:56] Speaker 2: I'm looking here. They, they are number two nationally in
[23:59] Speaker 2: two point field goal percentage defense because they're huge. and
[24:03] Speaker 2: relentless inside, and then they get good shots on offense,
[24:07] Speaker 2: and they make them, and they pound it in. Koa
[24:09] Speaker 2: Peet is a 6'8, 235 guy who, you know, unfortunately
[24:14] Speaker 2: for him, I think he's going to get drafted, you know,
[24:17] Speaker 2: top 10, top 15, and he's going to go to
[24:20] Speaker 2: the NBA, and they're just going to say, spend the
[24:22] Speaker 2: next year just shooting threes so that you can learn
[24:25] Speaker 2: how to be a wing, because that's what you're, you're
[24:27] Speaker 2: two inches too short to be a big man in
[24:30] Speaker 2: our league, but in college, oh my gosh, he is
[24:32] Speaker 2: a Power inside. Mo Cravis, the seven-footer, is a power inside.
[24:39] Speaker 2: And then Braden Burries, it's funny to me, the guard
[24:43] Speaker 2: from California, who's their most talented player, and he's a
[24:46] Speaker 2: top-ten pick, I would say. He has, like, the face
[24:49] Speaker 2: of a child actor. He looks, you know, this nice
[24:51] Speaker 2: little endearing, you know, maybe potentially soft guy. And then
[24:56] Speaker 2: you watch him play. It's like, oh, no, no, no.
[24:58] Speaker 2: Don't let looks deceive you. That guy is a killer.
[25:00] Speaker 2: I mean, he makes tough shots. He'll play physical, and
[25:04] Speaker 2: I think he'll be maybe the key to their final
[25:07] Speaker 2: four here because somebody's got to make some tough shots,
[25:09] Speaker 2: and he's capable of it.
[25:11] Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you this.
[25:12] Speaker 1: Coming up next, we're going to talk about another thing
[25:14] Speaker 1: that's going on with Arizona, but it doesn't involve their
[25:18] Speaker 1: basketball team. It's time to slide your glass slippers over
[25:23] Speaker 1: your lucky socks and hope for a fairytale ending. It
[25:26] Speaker 1: starts when you put in $ 10 on FanDuel Predicts, and
[25:30] Speaker 1: we match it with a $ 10 bonus. Buckle up for
[25:33] Speaker 1: the buzzer beaters that break brackets, shots that silence arenas,
[25:37] Speaker 1: and runs their rewrite history. Take a position on the spread,
[25:41] Speaker 1: total points, or the winning team. Follow the action in
[25:44] Speaker 1: real time. March matchups are on FanDuel Predicts.
[25:48] Speaker 4: Offered by FanDuel Prediction Market, LLC, a registered future commission merchant.
[25:53] Speaker 4: 18 plus, one per user. Minimum $ 10 deposit required. Trading
[25:57] Speaker 4: derivatives involve significant risk. and may not be suitable for
[26:00] Speaker 4: all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools.
[26:06] Speaker 1: Did you know Fast Growing Trees is America's largest and
[26:09] Speaker 1: most trusted online nursery with thousands of trees and plants
[26:12] Speaker 1: and over 2 million happy customers?
[26:14] Speaker 3: They have all the plants your.
[26:16] Speaker 1: Yard or home needs, including fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs,
[26:22] Speaker 1: and houseplants, all grown with care and guaranteed to arrive healthy.
[26:26] Speaker 1: It's like your local nursery, but anywhere you live, with
[26:29] Speaker 1: more plants than you'll.
[26:30] Speaker 3: Find anywhere else.
[26:32] Speaker 1: Whatever you're looking for, Fast Growing Trees helps you find
[26:36] Speaker 1: options that actually work for your climate, space, and lifestyle.
[26:40] Speaker 1: Fast Growing Trees makes it easy to get your dream yard.
[26:44] Speaker 1: Just click Order Grow and get healthy, thriving plants delivered
[26:48] Speaker 1: to your door. Their Alive and Thrive Guarantee promises that
[26:52] Speaker 1: your plants arrive happy and healthy. No green thumb required,
[26:56] Speaker 1: just quality plants you can count on. Plus, get ongoing
[27:00] Speaker 1: support from trained plant experts who can help you plan
[27:04] Speaker 1: your landscape, choose the right plants, and learn how to
[27:07] Speaker 1: care for them every step of the way. I recently
[27:11] Speaker 1: ordered some plants from Fast Growing Trees and cannot wait
[27:13] Speaker 1: to add them to my own plant collection. Right now,
[27:17] Speaker 1: they have great deals on spring planting essentials and up
[27:20] Speaker 1: to half off on selected plants. And listeners to our
[27:23] Speaker 1: show get 20% off their first purchase when using the
[27:26] Speaker 1: code BOMANI at checkout. That's an additional 20% off better
[27:31] Speaker 1: plants and better growing at FastGrowingTrees.com using the code BOMANI
[27:35] Speaker 1: at checkout. FastGrowingTrees.com, code BOMANI. Now's the perfect time to plant.
[27:42] Speaker 1: Let's grow together. Use BOMANI to save today. Offer is
[27:47] Speaker 1: valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply.
[27:51] Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Financial stress affects far
[27:55] Speaker 1: more than our bank accounts. It can take a serious
[27:58] Speaker 1: toll on mental health and relationships, with 88% of Americans
[28:01] Speaker 1: feeling some form of financial distress at the start of 2026.
[28:06] Speaker 1: Money worries often bring anxiety, sleep disruption, and even depression,
[28:10] Speaker 1: and are one of the leading sources of conflict for couples.
[28:14] Speaker 1: This month, we want to normalize the emotional weight of
[28:17] Speaker 1: financial stress and remind people that struggling with money doesn't
[28:20] Speaker 1: mean they fail. Sometimes it's just about accessing the right
[28:24] Speaker 1: kind of support. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict
[28:27] Speaker 1: code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US.
[28:31] Speaker 1: BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you
[28:34] Speaker 1: can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps
[28:38] Speaker 1: identify your needs and preferences and our 12 plus years
[28:41] Speaker 1: of experience in industry leading match fulfillment rate means we
[28:44] Speaker 1: typically get it right the first time. If you aren't
[28:47] Speaker 1: happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at
[28:50] Speaker 1: any time from our tailored recs.
[28:53] Speaker 3: With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp.
[28:55] Speaker 1: Is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over
[28:59] Speaker 1: 6 million people globally. And it works, with an average
[29:04] Speaker 1: rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session
[29:07] Speaker 1: based on over 1.7 million client reviews.
[29:10] Speaker 3: When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help.
[29:14] Speaker 1: Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash Bomani.
[29:18] Speaker 1: That's BetterHelp.com slash Bomani. All right, we are back with
[29:25] Speaker 1: Pat Forty, SI.com, talking some college basketball. And Arizona's in
[29:30] Speaker 1: the Final Four. Tommy Lloyd is their head coach. And
[29:33] Speaker 1: all the clips I see of the questions he's being
[29:34] Speaker 1: asked are about the North Carolina job, a job that
[29:38] Speaker 1: he will not come out and say that he's going to.
[29:40] Speaker 3: He does not want.
[29:41] Speaker 1: Just throwing this out there he is not hey you
[29:44] Speaker 1: know it's just hey because you know i got a
[29:45] Speaker 1: good team here can we talk about something else please.
[29:51] Speaker 2: Yeah i was in uh San Jose last week when
[29:54] Speaker 2: he was asked about it. And, you know, look, those
[29:57] Speaker 2: of us who have been around a long time, we're
[29:59] Speaker 2: finally attuned to the coach speak in these situations. And
[30:03] Speaker 2: there's one of two ways you can go. You just
[30:06] Speaker 2: stomp it out and say, I have no interest. Or
[30:09] Speaker 2: you mouth a bunch of platitudes and say how focused
[30:12] Speaker 2: you are on right here and right now. But you
[30:15] Speaker 2: avoid saying, I have no interest. And that means, guess what?
[30:18] Speaker 2: There's maybe some interest. Or at the very least, there's
[30:21] Speaker 2: interest in playing the leverage game. Yeah. Arizona.
[30:24] Speaker 3: Do these guys still have to lie anymore?
[30:26] Speaker 1: And I ask that question because you were you were
[30:28] Speaker 1: no longer asking players to come because you were going
[30:31] Speaker 1: to guide them through life. You're paying them now. Like,
[30:34] Speaker 1: I know you can't just flat out say, hey, man,
[30:36] Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about that other job as soon
[30:38] Speaker 1: as I can. But it feels like the paradigm hasn't
[30:41] Speaker 1: adjusted or that rhetoric hasn't adjusted to the reality. that
[30:46] Speaker 1: everybody's playing on a one-year contract now. Like, I don't
[30:48] Speaker 1: think you have to put yourself through, like, we'll talk
[30:51] Speaker 1: about another guy in a second and we'll wait, but
[30:53] Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't think you have to play this
[30:54] Speaker 1: game anymore.
[30:55] Speaker 2: No, that's a good point. You really probably don't. It's
[30:57] Speaker 2: certainly to the extent that it gets played. Um, you know,
[31:00] Speaker 2: I think that was purely like, I don't want my
[31:04] Speaker 2: fan base melting down right now in the sweet 16.
[31:07] Speaker 2: Just get me out of here. Get me off of
[31:10] Speaker 2: this podium as fast as you can. Uh, But you're right,
[31:14] Speaker 2: in terms of the actual brass tacks of it, there's
[31:18] Speaker 2: less of that, oh, I've got to keep my recruiting
[31:21] Speaker 2: class together or any of that sort of thing. That's
[31:24] Speaker 2: almost immaterial now.
[31:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, though, this also touches on something that
[31:28] Speaker 1: I'm curious your thoughts about this because I feel like
[31:32] Speaker 1: cyclically with any big job in college football or basketball,
[31:36] Speaker 1: something comes up and a program is in down times
[31:39] Speaker 1: or something like that, and the argument is made in
[31:41] Speaker 1: response that, You know, this isn't the old days.
[31:45] Speaker 3: You know, USC is never going to be what USC
[31:47] Speaker 3: used to be.
[31:48] Speaker 2: Right.
[31:48] Speaker 3: Then they hire Pete Carroll. And what do you know?
[31:51] Speaker 3: Alabama is never going to be what it was.
[31:53] Speaker 1: And then you hire Nick Saban and then it goes.
[31:56] Speaker 1: It feels like right now is North Carolina's time. And
[32:00] Speaker 1: we can go back through the last however many years
[32:03] Speaker 1: there hasn't been.
[32:04] Speaker 3: The program has produced an all star in nearly 30 years.
[32:07] Speaker 3: Vince Carter's the last all star. that they had produced.
[32:09] Speaker 1: But they've also been wildly successful in that time. And
[32:14] Speaker 1: I am of the belief that just because the money
[32:19] Speaker 1: game is what it is and all these things have changed,
[32:21] Speaker 1: that's still North Carolina and that's still a job that
[32:25] Speaker 1: most coaches would love to have. And I feel like
[32:27] Speaker 1: the fact that Tommy Lloyd is over there tap dancing
[32:29] Speaker 1: when he has one of those jobs that most coaches
[32:32] Speaker 1: would love to have is an indicator that this is
[32:34] Speaker 1: still North Carolina.
[32:36] Speaker 2: Without question. I think there's still a large number of
[32:41] Speaker 2: great coaches who look at this and say, that's the
[32:43] Speaker 2: best job you can have in college basketball. It's another thing,
[32:48] Speaker 2: you know, like Indiana, like we were just talking about, well,
[32:50] Speaker 2: you get the right guy. North Carolina is so much
[32:53] Speaker 2: closer to always being that team, even than Indiana. You know,
[32:56] Speaker 2: that program where just line them up and it's going
[33:00] Speaker 2: to work. You know, get a coach who's a good
[33:03] Speaker 2: coach and you're going to get good players, great players.
[33:06] Speaker 2: As you said, I don't care whether you're an NBA All-Star.
[33:08] Speaker 2: Tyler Hansborough, who cares whether he's an NBA All-Star? Joel Berry,
[33:11] Speaker 2: et cetera. I mean, you know, they get great players
[33:13] Speaker 2: who do great things at North Carolina. That can certainly
[33:16] Speaker 2: still be the case and will be the case, I think.
[33:20] Speaker 2: You know, if this thing plays out the way it
[33:22] Speaker 2: looks like it might, they're going to have a great
[33:24] Speaker 2: coach and they're going to win a national title again
[33:26] Speaker 2: sometime in the next five to ten years.
[33:28] Speaker 1: Yeah, but the concern, though, is obviously they seem to
[33:33] Speaker 1: have a chaotic infrastructure situation and.
[33:37] Speaker 3: A resource drain named Belichick.
[33:39] Speaker 1: Like, I think the part of the Belichick hire that
[33:42] Speaker 1: we didn't really do the math on is there's only
[33:44] Speaker 1: so much money, and they ponied up a lot of
[33:47] Speaker 1: money to do the things that he wanted to do
[33:49] Speaker 1: for that football program, and it ain't working.
[33:52] Speaker 3: And I think the biggest part of why.
[33:54] Speaker 1: That's making people mad and people– These basketball programs, it's interesting.
[33:58] Speaker 1: Football pays so much of everything else, but the tail
[34:02] Speaker 1: will never wag the dog in Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
[34:06] Speaker 3: And the dog is basketball.
[34:10] Speaker 1: The dog is basketball, and they've got to figure it out,
[34:13] Speaker 1: but it doesn't... There was a level of alignment that
[34:16] Speaker 1: they used to seem to have up top for a
[34:18] Speaker 1: very long time that does not seem to be there now.
[34:21] Speaker 2: No, I mean, that's a great point, that there is,
[34:23] Speaker 2: you know... Seemingly a battle for the soul of Carolina
[34:27] Speaker 2: athletics going on on a number of fronts. And one
[34:29] Speaker 2: of them, yes, is who's in charge? Who's who do
[34:32] Speaker 2: the money people want to be in charge? What do
[34:34] Speaker 2: we want to be? And it feels like, you know,
[34:38] Speaker 2: just the group thing that happens in college sports amazes me.
[34:43] Speaker 2: But like Carolina seemed to like listen to the outside
[34:47] Speaker 2: people saying, well, football is all that matters. Football is
[34:49] Speaker 2: all that matters. We got to go take a home
[34:51] Speaker 2: run swing. Let's go get Bill Belichick. Wait a minute.
[34:54] Speaker 2: Does this make any sense? And then we're going to
[34:58] Speaker 2: pay him a gazillion dollars and there's a gazillion dollar
[35:01] Speaker 2: support staff and everything else. And then it flops as
[35:05] Speaker 2: badly as it did in year one. I mean, it's
[35:07] Speaker 2: one of those things where. I think especially if you
[35:10] Speaker 2: go get the right basketball coach here in a couple
[35:12] Speaker 2: of weeks or however much time it may take, you
[35:15] Speaker 2: come back and you say, let's get back to who
[35:17] Speaker 2: we are. Let's give Bill one more year. And after that,
[35:20] Speaker 2: we are diverting funds back to where the dog is,
[35:23] Speaker 2: not where the tail is.
[35:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, because, hey, look, that's one thing people don't get also.
[35:27] Speaker 1: Boosters make decisions by doing that. When a booster decides
[35:30] Speaker 1: that they're tired of a coach, we saw this happen.
[35:33] Speaker 1: Charlie Strong could speak to it from his time at Texas.
[35:35] Speaker 1: Konzo Martin could speak to it from his time at Tennessee.
[35:39] Speaker 1: All of a sudden, wait a minute, what do you
[35:40] Speaker 1: mean I can't use the plane? to go recruit what
[35:43] Speaker 1: are you talking about like little things start getting dialed
[35:47] Speaker 1: back when it's like yeah we're gonna get you out
[35:50] Speaker 1: of here this like we may not be able to
[35:51] Speaker 1: afford to buy out right now but we don't have
[35:55] Speaker 1: to put up with this because I feel like and
[35:58] Speaker 1: I don't know your spin on this I don't think
[36:00] Speaker 1: they made a bad hire with Hubert. I think it
[36:03] Speaker 1: turned out to be a different job than Hubert thought
[36:04] Speaker 1: he was taking. But, I mean, he was clearly being
[36:06] Speaker 1: groomed for that job. They went to a Final Four,
[36:09] Speaker 1: and they had.
[36:09] Speaker 3: Some good teams.
[36:11] Speaker 1: Like, it's not– this is– I didn't think– they fired
[36:15] Speaker 1: him because they wanted to. I didn't think that they
[36:17] Speaker 1: had to fire him, though morale had definitely fallen among
[36:20] Speaker 1: the fans and everything else.
[36:21] Speaker 3: But they fumbled the fire.
[36:23] Speaker 1: And the one part that would worry me if I
[36:24] Speaker 1: was somebody that was taking that job is any place
[36:26] Speaker 1: where they fumbled the fire that bad.
[36:28] Speaker 2: Sure, and that tells you, yeah, there's too many cooks,
[36:30] Speaker 2: too many disagreeing cooks in the kitchen, right? And it
[36:34] Speaker 2: does seem weird, like, nobody, I didn't think there was
[36:38] Speaker 2: much smoke about Hubert getting fired at all until they
[36:41] Speaker 2: blow the game against VCU. And then all of a sudden,
[36:44] Speaker 2: there seemed to be some emotional decisions being made. Like
[36:47] Speaker 2: you're hearing, oh, the money's no longer there. Well, what
[36:50] Speaker 2: did it take? Like eight hours for the money?
[36:53] Speaker 1: Get rid of him.
[36:54] Speaker 4: Get rid of him.
[36:55] Speaker 2: We just blew this game. I was like, holy moly.
[36:57] Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[36:58] Speaker 2: Now, yeah, look, I thought he was a perfectly fine hire.
[37:01] Speaker 2: He had some incredibly high moments there. Obviously, the two
[37:04] Speaker 2: flag plants against Duke. but the next year they're number
[37:07] Speaker 2: one seed. They win the ACC. I mean, it's not
[37:10] Speaker 2: like Hubert Davis was Matt Doherty, right? And even Matt
[37:12] Speaker 2: Doherty's first year wasn't terrible, which is another reason why
[37:14] Speaker 2: that job is so good. You know, I look at
[37:20] Speaker 2: that and think that, yes, that there was a lot
[37:22] Speaker 2: of emotional reactions to Hubert Davis, but I would not say, gosh, Hubert,
[37:28] Speaker 2: you did a terrible job by any stretch. No, no.
[37:31] Speaker 3: It's, well... It seems very clear.
[37:35] Speaker 1: The name that we're hearing the most is Billy Donovan
[37:38] Speaker 1: around that job. And it looks like enough chaos in
[37:42] Speaker 1: Chicago that it looks like Billy Donovan will be available.
[37:44] Speaker 1: And I don't think anybody else would hire Billy Donovan
[37:46] Speaker 1: to coach their NBA team at this point.
[37:48] Speaker 3: And I think that he was a.
[37:49] Speaker 1: Replacement level NBA coach.
[37:51] Speaker 3: I don't mean he wasn't bad. He wasn't good.
[37:53] Speaker 1: But if he still wants to coach and the North
[37:57] Speaker 1: Carolina is there and if they want him, I reckon
[38:01] Speaker 1: he's there on the first thing smoking. My question is,
[38:03] Speaker 1: a guy that hasn't coached in college in 11 years,
[38:07] Speaker 1: what is the adjustment? Though I guess if college is
[38:10] Speaker 1: more like pro, he's done that.
[38:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, he'll figure it out. I don't think it would
[38:15] Speaker 2: be a problem for him, and I think he would
[38:16] Speaker 2: be a great hire, as would Tommy Lloyd, I think, too.
[38:20] Speaker 2: But Billy, you know, I heard back when he was
[38:25] Speaker 2: at Florida and when he was in the NBA, the
[38:26] Speaker 2: only other job that would interest him, that would kind
[38:29] Speaker 2: of light the candle in his eyes would be Carolina
[38:33] Speaker 2: because he realized what kind of job that is. He
[38:36] Speaker 2: is a great coach. I think he would walk in
[38:38] Speaker 2: and immediately be at the very top as an X
[38:42] Speaker 2: and O coach. And yeah, you can figure out the
[38:44] Speaker 2: rest of it. And as you said, if it's more
[38:46] Speaker 2: of an NBA, you know, a professional style roster building everything, well,
[38:50] Speaker 2: what's he been doing for the last 12 years? He's
[38:52] Speaker 2: been doing that. So I don't think this is the
[38:54] Speaker 2: kind of thing where he would be– blindsided, overmatched, getting
[39:00] Speaker 2: the wrong guys, thinking like Bill Belichick, I can get
[39:03] Speaker 2: Mac players and turn them into ACC players. You know,
[39:07] Speaker 2: I think he would have a very good grasp on
[39:10] Speaker 2: what to do. The learning curve would be short, and
[39:13] Speaker 2: then Carolina would do extremely well with Billy Donovan.
[39:16] Speaker 1: And I think that important, if I were in charge
[39:20] Speaker 1: of that search— College basketball, winning is not enough. Different
[39:25] Speaker 1: places want to win different ways, right? So we all
[39:29] Speaker 1: remember the infamous Herbst Sendak era at North Carolina State.
[39:31] Speaker 1: And no matter how good a coach you thought Herb was,
[39:34] Speaker 1: they didn't like the way that he played basketball. It
[39:37] Speaker 1: was only happy when they won, but running that slowdown,
[39:40] Speaker 1: Princeton stuff that he was doing, it made them miserable
[39:42] Speaker 1: when they didn't. And that's why ultimately he left. They
[39:45] Speaker 1: didn't fire him, but they didn't, nobody was that sad.
[39:49] Speaker 1: When he got out of there, I was there for
[39:51] Speaker 1: his last ACC tournament. Nobody was sad when he left,
[39:53] Speaker 1: but they didn't like the way he played that kind
[39:56] Speaker 1: of grinded out ball that Lloyd is playing.
[39:58] Speaker 3: They're not going to like that there.
[40:00] Speaker 1: I think Donovan with a more guard centered off, you know,
[40:03] Speaker 1: type of play that he was known for when he
[40:05] Speaker 1: was coaching in college, that's the one for them. And
[40:09] Speaker 1: it's enough to feed their egos and make them feel like, yep,
[40:12] Speaker 1: we're still the program that can get you Billy Donovan,
[40:14] Speaker 1: which again, very important jobs like these.
[40:18] Speaker 2: No doubt. I mean, How many schools have tried to
[40:20] Speaker 2: hire Billy Donovan in the last 20 years? I mean,
[40:23] Speaker 2: Kentucky tried multiple times. Couldn't get him. I mean, big-time
[40:27] Speaker 2: schools wanted Billy Donovan for a good reason. He went
[40:29] Speaker 2: to four Final Fours. He won two national championships in
[40:32] Speaker 2: a row. He knows how to recruit. He knows how
[40:35] Speaker 2: to put together a team. He knows how to coach
[40:37] Speaker 2: a team. I see no weaknesses there other than, yeah, okay,
[40:42] Speaker 2: I've been gone for 12 years. He'll figure it out.
[40:44] Speaker 2: He'll be fine.
[40:45] Speaker 1: There's one thing, though, that has to be resolved that
[40:49] Speaker 1: only guys like you and I would probably remember, which
[40:52] Speaker 1: is way back in 1997 or 1998, when Mike Miller
[40:58] Speaker 1: was a recruit, Roy Williams and Billy Donovan got into
[41:02] Speaker 1: a real nasty thing about who said what and who
[41:06] Speaker 1: did what.
[41:07] Speaker 3: And I imagine that Billy Donovan has let that go.
[41:11] Speaker 1: I promise you that Roy Williams has not. That's not
[41:19] Speaker 1: how he operates.
[41:20] Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, look, this is going to be an
[41:22] Speaker 2: adjustment for Roy no matter what. First of all, there's
[41:25] Speaker 2: not some new Dean guy, you know, to take over.
[41:28] Speaker 2: So he's going outside. But then if you go outside
[41:30] Speaker 2: to Billy, yeah. Most of you guys can have a
[41:33] Speaker 2: nice closed-door chat about Brett Barrett and a few other
[41:36] Speaker 2: things and then move on. And then get behind him, Roy.
[41:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's going to have to happen, and I
[41:43] Speaker 1: wish I could be there for it.
[41:45] Speaker 2: Oh. It was bitter between those two for a while.
[41:51] Speaker 1: I miss my days of paying attention to this stuff
[41:54] Speaker 1: every day, all the time.
[41:55] Speaker 3: Because every now and then, something comes up, and I'm like,
[41:58] Speaker 3: that's right. That thing did happen. Staying in that area, you....
[42:06] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll go to Will Wade before we get back
[42:08] Speaker 1: over there to Shire. We talked a little bit about
[42:11] Speaker 1: the Will Wade situation here. It is one of the
[42:13] Speaker 1: more amazing things to happen in college sports where apparently
[42:17] Speaker 1: everybody knew Will Wade was just itching to get back
[42:19] Speaker 1: to LSU.
[42:19] Speaker 3: The block had finally calmed down enough.
[42:21] Speaker 1: I compared it to Alex Cora in baseball where the
[42:24] Speaker 1: Red Sox had to fire him because of the Astros
[42:26] Speaker 1: cheating thing, and then they waited until nobody cared anymore,
[42:29] Speaker 1: and they brought him back. And that's basically what happened
[42:31] Speaker 1: here with Will Wade, except speaking of people who didn't
[42:35] Speaker 1: have to lie, He just lied and lied and lied
[42:41] Speaker 1: and lied and lied. And now he's going to go
[42:44] Speaker 1: to LSU where he never got out of the round
[42:46] Speaker 1: of 32.
[42:48] Speaker 2: That's it. You know, like honest to God, like LSU
[42:52] Speaker 2: has just willfully said, we have no shame and we'll
[42:56] Speaker 2: go ahead and be a laughingstock because we've got to
[42:59] Speaker 2: have a guy who can take us to the second
[43:02] Speaker 2: round of the tournament. Really? Is that what we're talking
[43:05] Speaker 2: about here? Like that's like people seem to confuse him
[43:08] Speaker 2: with John Wooden. and Mike Krzyzewski and Roy Williams quite
[43:12] Speaker 2: often in terms of like, he's the greatest coach ever. No, man,
[43:16] Speaker 2: he's a good coach who's a renegade red ass, which
[43:21] Speaker 2: is what we kind of like at LSU. We put
[43:24] Speaker 2: him together with Lane Kiffin, and we bring in Rick
[43:28] Speaker 2: Stansberry on his staff among other people.
[43:31] Speaker 4: Yes.
[43:32] Speaker 2: It's like shame has left the building in Baton Rouge.
[43:35] Speaker 2: It's a whole new deal.
[43:37] Speaker 3: They brought back Johnny Jones, too.
[43:39] Speaker 2: Brought back Johnny Jones, yeah.
[43:41] Speaker 1: The LSU basketball program is so interesting because no program
[43:45] Speaker 1: in history has done less with the best top line
[43:50] Speaker 1: of players in the history of programs.
[43:53] Speaker 3: Nobody's beaten LSU.
[43:55] Speaker 2: Robert E.
[43:55] Speaker 3: Lee Pettit, Pistol Pete, Shaq, Chris Jackson. Yeah, like.
[44:02] Speaker 1: and didn't win a damn thing with any of those guys.
[44:06] Speaker 1: But if you gave Dale Brown, John Hotplate Williams, and
[44:11] Speaker 1: a random smattering of dudes, somehow we will make the
[44:14] Speaker 1: Final Four.
[44:15] Speaker 3: You gave John.
[44:16] Speaker 1: Brady quite possibly the worst coach ever to make a
[44:20] Speaker 1: Final Four, but you gave him Glenn Davis and Tyrus
[44:23] Speaker 1: Thomas and Garrett Temple and beat Coach K all the
[44:27] Speaker 1: way to a Final Four. Like they, nothing about their
[44:31] Speaker 1: program historically has made a great deal of sense, but
[44:33] Speaker 1: they're always entertaining, right? And it's always like something to watch.
[44:37] Speaker 1: And then you'll, you know, what was the Bob Knight line?
[44:39] Speaker 1: I didn't, you know, I thought we were in trouble
[44:40] Speaker 1: until I looked over there and saw Dale Brown and
[44:42] Speaker 1: I knew everything was going to be okay.
[44:44] Speaker 2: That's right. That's right. 80, I think it was 87 tournament.
[44:48] Speaker 2: He said that.
[44:48] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[44:48] Speaker 2: I mean, No, it is like that place is just
[44:53] Speaker 2: a freaking hot mess. And especially with basketball, like football
[44:56] Speaker 2: is too important to just kind of song and a
[44:58] Speaker 2: prayer at basketball. They're like, hey, we'll just take the
[45:01] Speaker 2: mess and see how it works out. Like you said,
[45:04] Speaker 2: they have had, if you put together, if you had
[45:06] Speaker 2: an all-time starting five of LSU guys versus other teams,
[45:11] Speaker 2: it's right there. I mean, you named them off. I mean,
[45:14] Speaker 2: all-time great players who never went anywhere.
[45:19] Speaker 1: They might have the four best players in the history
[45:22] Speaker 1: of the Southeastern Conference.
[45:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
[45:25] Speaker 3: Like the literal four.
[45:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I mean, people forget how good Chris Jackson was.
[45:30] Speaker 2: Chris Jackson played with Shaquille O'Neal on the same team.
[45:35] Speaker 2: And I saw him go into Rupp Arena and lose
[45:37] Speaker 2: to a team that had seven scholarship players and was
[45:39] Speaker 2: playing Richie Farmer. I was like, what on earth? Not possible.
[45:43] Speaker 1: With Stanley Roberts, who we joke about for being fat,
[45:46] Speaker 1: but was a really good basketball player.
[45:49] Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, yeah. God love Dale. Dale was entertaining
[45:53] Speaker 2: and he's still with us. Yes. But he underachieved a
[45:58] Speaker 2: few times.
[45:59] Speaker 3: And a good man, right?
[46:01] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[46:01] Speaker 3: He's on the Guy V.
[46:02] Speaker 1: Lewis list of good men who could get good players
[46:07] Speaker 1: to coach them badly. Right. Like Gavi, Gavi got off
[46:12] Speaker 1: in history that the NC State story was so inspiring
[46:15] Speaker 1: to people to ignore the fact.
[46:17] Speaker 3: Blew it. Flat out. Blew it.
[46:21] Speaker 2: The loss to NC State, that championship game is absolute malpractice.
[46:24] Speaker 2: I mean, that's I did something on the greatest buzzer
[46:28] Speaker 2: beaters this week. And you go back and watch and
[46:31] Speaker 2: watch the last minute of that game. There was no
[46:33] Speaker 2: shot clock. And they've got all those athletes out there,
[46:36] Speaker 2: and they're just standing there in a zone like this
[46:38] Speaker 2: for a minute, letting Sidney Lowe and Derek Wittenberg pass
[46:42] Speaker 2: the ball back and forth, Terry Gannon. And that's what
[46:46] Speaker 2: basically the whole game was. It was 52 to 52.
[46:49] Speaker 2: It should have been 80 to 65.
[46:52] Speaker 3: Right, with Akeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler.
[46:54] Speaker 2: Yes.
[46:54] Speaker 3: And Larry Bichon.
[46:55] Speaker 2: Okay.
[46:56] Speaker 3: Anyway, we can move.
[46:58] Speaker 1: NC State, by the way, shout out to them. Recovered quickly.
[47:00] Speaker 1: Made what seems to be a pretty good hire. Did
[47:03] Speaker 1: not embarrass themselves, which is always on the board over there. So, like,
[47:07] Speaker 1: way to go. Now, I want to wrap this up
[47:09] Speaker 1: with Duke because I, counterintuitive though this may seem, it's
[47:14] Speaker 1: a bit of a defense. I don't know if defense
[47:15] Speaker 1: is the right word, but I am surprised at the
[47:18] Speaker 1: level of criticism the Shire has received.
[47:22] Speaker 3: Coming off of this.
[47:23] Speaker 1: Now, there have been some embarrassing losses in the ways
[47:26] Speaker 1: the games have been lost, but to me, it's like, Like,
[47:29] Speaker 1: are people new here? This is kind of how it
[47:31] Speaker 1: goes for all coaches, even if it's not at the beginning, right?
[47:34] Speaker 3: There's stretches.
[47:35] Speaker 1: Like, I remind people, Dean Smith did not make a
[47:37] Speaker 1: Final Four from 82 through 91. Roy Williams did not
[47:41] Speaker 1: make a Final Four after 93 and before 2002.
[47:45] Speaker 3: Like, these things happen.
[47:48] Speaker 1: Shire's a little ahead of the game, I would argue,
[47:52] Speaker 1: for where he is to.
[47:53] Speaker 3: Start this off, while also acknowledging.
[47:55] Speaker 1: The last couple of years have ended in what they
[47:57] Speaker 1: call an ignominious sort of fashion.
[48:01] Speaker 2: Ignominious is the word for it. It really is. I mean,
[48:05] Speaker 2: the problem, yeah, like you got number one seed. Last year,
[48:10] Speaker 2: getting to the final four as a number one seed,
[48:11] Speaker 2: that's fine. But the way you blew the game against
[48:15] Speaker 2: Houston with Cooper Flag, ugly. And then the way you
[48:20] Speaker 2: blew this game with Cam Boozer, very ugly. and just
[48:25] Speaker 2: the way things kind of unraveled, and even kind of
[48:29] Speaker 2: gradually at the time. And then really, if you want
[48:31] Speaker 2: to go back the year before, when you lose to
[48:34] Speaker 2: NC State and that Fluke Miracle team, ugly. So three
[48:38] Speaker 2: straight really ugly elimination games. But to be number one
[48:42] Speaker 2: seed a couple years in a row is great, and
[48:45] Speaker 2: win 70 games is impressive. Nobody should be saying John
[48:49] Speaker 2: Shire can't do it. They should just be saying John
[48:51] Speaker 2: Shire has a major problem at key points of the
[48:54] Speaker 2: NCAA tournament, he'll get past it, right? He's 38 years old,
[48:58] Speaker 2: as you pointed out. There's been plenty of coaches that
[49:01] Speaker 2: have had very bad tournament losses. It's nice when your
[49:05] Speaker 2: bad losses happen at the final four and lead eight
[49:08] Speaker 2: stage as opposed to the first round. That's a good thing.
[49:11] Speaker 2: So I think he will move on from it. He'll
[49:14] Speaker 2: get better handling these things. And eventually he's going to
[49:19] Speaker 2: win a title. But you know, the way they have
[49:22] Speaker 2: lost has been ghastly. Yeah.
[49:25] Speaker 1: I think ghastly is the way to put it. And look,
[49:27] Speaker 1: I've enjoyed how it's gone personally. It's worked out very
[49:29] Speaker 1: well for me, but no, no, no, no, no. This
[49:32] Speaker 1: is something would drastically have to change for me to
[49:36] Speaker 1: not look at Shire and be like.
[49:38] Speaker 3: No, this is good.
[49:39] Speaker 1: Look, I don't think that's a job that's guaranteed to
[49:41] Speaker 1: be great forever. They don't like, they have a brand
[49:45] Speaker 1: that's been built over time, but they don't have like
[49:48] Speaker 1: the super built in advantages either.
[49:51] Speaker 2: No, I agree. I mean, look, in, in our lifetime,
[49:57] Speaker 2: what Krzyzewski built, it looks like immovable, but over time,
[50:03] Speaker 2: as you said, things can change. And that is not,
[50:06] Speaker 2: that's one of those places where I think it's a
[50:08] Speaker 2: little less kind of secure, like in terms of like
[50:11] Speaker 2: in perpetuity is Duke going to be good for 50 years? Probably,
[50:16] Speaker 2: but not certainly. I don't think, um, And so, you know,
[50:20] Speaker 2: if anybody's sitting out there saying Shire's got to go,
[50:23] Speaker 2: be careful because who the heck's coming in next who's
[50:25] Speaker 2: going to win 70 games in two years?
[50:28] Speaker 3: 70 games in two years.
[50:29] Speaker 1: It's like 70 and 7, I think, is what it's
[50:31] Speaker 1: been in the last two years with like two or
[50:34] Speaker 1: three ACC losses.
[50:36] Speaker 3: Like, guys, come on.
[50:39] Speaker 2: Totally dominated that league.
[50:40] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[50:41] Speaker 2: And, you know, still a good league. I'm sorry. Yeah, man.
[50:44] Speaker 3: That is Pat Forty. Check him out.
[50:46] Speaker 1: SI.com, covering college sports. My man, I appreciate you.
[50:51] Speaker 2: Thanks, Bo.
[50:52] Speaker 1: All right, ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining
[50:53] Speaker 1: us here on The Right Time. We do this four
[50:55] Speaker 1: times a week. Brian Brumley handles everything behind the scenes.
[50:58] Speaker 3: Thank you, sir.
[50:58] Speaker 1: Hit the voicemail line, 323-596-7767. Remember, follow The Right Time. Subscribe, like,
[51:05] Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. If you
[51:06] Speaker 1: only give us four stars, I'm inclined to believe you
[51:08] Speaker 1: are a hater. We'll talk to you guys in a
[51:10] Speaker 1: couple of days.
[51:11] Speaker 3: Take it easy.
[51:16] Speaker 1: Thank you.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.