# Ep. 785: Another Attack On Our Public Lands

An episode of [The MeatEater Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/960902903), 30 Oct 2025, 37 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/63aba8bc-2dc8-4f89-807a-ae280065a7cd/8e1f3fab-2cd8-4795-b540-b3850104faee/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=3892b9a1-a960-4f9e-bee7-ae280065a7db

Steven Rinella talks with Jeremy Romero of the National Wildlife Federation about yet another attack on our public lands by Sen. Mike Lee's latest Border Lands Conservation Act. Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we have a special emergency FOP.
[0:03] Speaker 1: This has dedicated to all the listeners out there who
[0:05] Speaker 1: stay we should just stay out of politics. Join today
[0:10] Speaker 1: by my friend Jeremy Romero, who's a hunter, conservationist and
[0:16] Speaker 1: serves with the National Wildlife Federation. And Jeremy is here
[0:20] Speaker 1: to talk about kind of what I view to be
[0:23] Speaker 1: like one of the most I do. Like, I'm trying
[0:28] Speaker 1: to think choose my words carefully here. Cynical, creative, and
[0:33] Speaker 1: kind of like a little bit like of an exploitive.
[0:37] Speaker 1: Now explain why I'm using these words. A cynical, exploitive
[0:43] Speaker 1: public lands bill that has emerged without a lot of
[0:47] Speaker 1: fanfare and without a lot of reporting. If you, if
[0:51] Speaker 1: you follow the news you've been, you've seen that we've
[0:55] Speaker 1: suffered another a number of conservation setbacks coming out of
[1:01] Speaker 1: the Trump administration where undoing the roleless rule. Okay, that's
[1:11] Speaker 1: going on. We had we'd put the Ambler Road, building
[1:15] Speaker 1: a big industrial corridor into Alaska's Brooks Range that had
[1:18] Speaker 1: again temporarily put to bed. Ambler Road is back on
[1:22] Speaker 1: the table in order to allow a foreign mining company
[1:25] Speaker 1: to drill and export a bunch of mineral wealth out
[1:28] Speaker 1: of Alaska and create a two hundred and fifty mile
[1:31] Speaker 1: industrial corridor going into one of our last vestiges of wilderness.
[1:37] Speaker 1: We have another phenomenal piece of wilderness called the Arctic
[1:40] Speaker 1: National Wildlife Refuge. We learned a couple of days ago
[1:43] Speaker 1: that they're they're looking to open up and reissue drilling leases.
[1:47] Speaker 2: In anwar.
[1:50] Speaker 1: There was a lot of resource management plans, Bureau of
[1:53] Speaker 1: Land Management resource management plans that just got undone, so Montana, Alaska,
[2:00] Speaker 1: North Dakota. So these were management plans that many stakeholders
[2:04] Speaker 1: came together. They served a lot of interests of hunters
[2:07] Speaker 1: and anglers that got thrown out the window. Okay, the
[2:11] Speaker 1: aim for everything we're talking about, what we're going to
[2:14] Speaker 1: talk about in a minute, The aim here is to
[2:15] Speaker 1: be able to a push by the administration to increase
[2:22] Speaker 1: resource extraction and industrialization. If you remember, back before a
[2:29] Speaker 1: lot of this stuff started brewing, a lot of this
[2:31] Speaker 1: stuff was whispers last June. But last June we saw
[2:36] Speaker 1: perhaps one of the most direct assaults on public lands,
[2:40] Speaker 1: and that was Utah Senator Mike Lee's pushed to sell
[2:43] Speaker 1: off a few million acres of public lands that got
[2:50] Speaker 1: enormous pushback. I would say, like enormous bipartisan pushback. We
[2:57] Speaker 1: had seen that happen. Again, what year was it the
[2:59] Speaker 1: Chaf's one, Jared, I'm sorry, do you remember what year
[3:01] Speaker 1: Jason Chafis proposal which was remarkably similar.
[3:04] Speaker 2: Twenty seventeen sounds right, yeah, twenty seventeen. I think I
[3:09] Speaker 2: was right.
[3:09] Speaker 1: Around twenty seventeen, there was another proposal to sell millions
[3:14] Speaker 1: of acres of public land that was met with enormous
[3:18] Speaker 1: bipartisan pushback.
[3:20] Speaker 2: The media.
[3:23] Speaker 1: Seemed to be that the national media seemed to be
[3:25] Speaker 1: expo surprised by the fact that Hunter's co laced around
[3:29] Speaker 1: pushback on that issue that was by a Utah lawmaker
[3:37] Speaker 1: named Jason Chafits Senator Mike Lee. Just in June twenty
[3:44] Speaker 1: twenty five brought out a new plan to sell off
[3:48] Speaker 1: millions of acres that had different sort of code words.
[3:51] Speaker 2: You know.
[3:52] Speaker 1: I find that these plans are a lot of this legislation,
[3:55] Speaker 1: and we'll get into this in greater detail with Jeremy.
[3:58] Speaker 1: A lot of the anti public lands legislation, anti wilderness
[4:02] Speaker 1: aarrea legislation will carry like a a it'll carry fashionable buzzwords. Okay,
[4:09] Speaker 1: So one of Mike Lee's early versions of the sell
[4:12] Speaker 1: off was like, was couched in this language around affordable housing.
[4:18] Speaker 1: But then when you look at the details of the bill,
[4:20] Speaker 1: it didn't really do much to address affordable housing. Before
[4:25] Speaker 1: it was in twenty seventeen, it was like extra or
[4:33] Speaker 1: excess public lands. We have excess public lands. We're going
[4:36] Speaker 1: to get rid of some of them. The bill we're
[4:39] Speaker 1: going to talk about now. It uses another currently fashionable
[4:42] Speaker 1: buzzword in order to accomplish something that really doesn't do
[4:46] Speaker 1: much to serve the buzzword that it's being marketed under.
[4:50] Speaker 1: But going back to June, this big sell off push
[4:55] Speaker 1: was pulled, it was defeated. When that happened, a lot
[5:00] Speaker 1: of people I know in the conservation space were like,
[5:03] Speaker 1: We're cautious about declaring it a victory. They're like, that
[5:06] Speaker 1: was a we want to battle. We didn't win the war.
[5:09] Speaker 1: This will come back up very quickly. One might think
[5:12] Speaker 1: that Senator Lee, like it was kind of a bruising
[5:17] Speaker 1: on that. One might have thought he might retreat from
[5:21] Speaker 1: the idea altogether of kind of weakening protections.
[5:26] Speaker 2: But but but he hasn't.
[5:27] Speaker 1: He's he's he has a he's committed to the idea
[5:34] Speaker 1: of opening up, of weakening public lands protections, opening up
[5:40] Speaker 1: undeveloped lands to development.
[5:41] Speaker 2: That just that's where he is. That's his commitment. Uh.
[5:46] Speaker 1: So we're looking at a new bill here that was
[5:51] Speaker 1: introduced on October second, and this is the one I
[5:54] Speaker 1: was saying that just hasn't, like, for whatever reason, hasn't
[5:57] Speaker 1: received a bunch of news. And I think it's because
[6:03] Speaker 1: it's entering an area that's quite clouded with all these
[6:05] Speaker 1: other things that I laid out, the role this rule
[6:08] Speaker 1: Ambler Road and why are resource management plans? So this
[6:11] Speaker 1: one's kind of flown a little bit under the radar.
[6:13] Speaker 1: And I've asked Jeremy Romero to come on. He was
[6:16] Speaker 1: the one that told me about it. I asked him
[6:19] Speaker 1: to come on and explain to me and explain to
[6:21] Speaker 1: our listeners what the Borderlands Conservation Act is all about.
[6:29] Speaker 1: And it ain't about conservation. So Jeremy, can you can
[6:35] Speaker 1: you talk people through what the Borderlands Conservation Act is, like,
[6:41] Speaker 1: what is it at face value?
[6:44] Speaker 2: And what is it actually about? And then we'll get
[6:46] Speaker 2: into some details.
[6:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, you bet, Steve, Thanks for having me on to
[6:50] Speaker 3: talk about this issue. You know, I think you said
[6:52] Speaker 3: it brilliantly. It's a it's an attack on public LANs.
[6:56] Speaker 3: You know, Senator Lee, I think really took a stab
[7:00] Speaker 3: at at undermining public lands when we went through the
[7:04] Speaker 3: reconciliation process, and you know, the large effort to sell
[7:07] Speaker 3: off public lands, and essentially this is this is no different.
[7:11] Speaker 3: So in October, early October, Senator Lee introduced the Borderlands
[7:17] Speaker 3: Conservation Act with you know, in a nutshell, that bill
[7:20] Speaker 3: is focused on border security. Again, you said, and use
[7:24] Speaker 3: the phrase of kind of these these sexy terms, right,
[7:27] Speaker 3: these terms that are popular in society today, and border
[7:31] Speaker 3: security is one of those. And this bill is aimed
[7:33] Speaker 3: at at just that increasing border security along the northern
[7:37] Speaker 3: and southern borders in the United States, kind of creating
[7:41] Speaker 3: these hundred mile buffer zones in the northern and southern
[7:44] Speaker 3: borders and basically creates and gives Department of Homeland Security
[7:48] Speaker 3: the authority to manage these roads and an effort to
[7:52] Speaker 3: strengthen border security. And it does it by a number
[7:55] Speaker 3: of different measures that we'll talk about this in this conversation.
[8:00] Speaker 3: Really those measures, in my opinion, undermined the importance of
[8:04] Speaker 3: public lands and the protections forwarded to public lands, like
[8:08] Speaker 3: things like the nineteen sixty nineteen sixty four Wilderness Act.
[8:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, which are these points should we jump into first?
[8:14] Speaker 1: Here?
[8:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, let's just talk about this hundred mile buffer kind
[8:18] Speaker 3: of the rationale behind, you know, inventoring these illegal roads
[8:23] Speaker 3: and trails.
[8:25] Speaker 1: So yeah, I want to hit that because when we
[8:29] Speaker 1: talk about one hundred mile buffer, this will impact. You
[8:34] Speaker 1: have to appreciate like what we're talking about. So I'm
[8:37] Speaker 1: gonna tell people something obvious here. If we're talking about
[8:42] Speaker 1: if you look at a map of the United States
[8:43] Speaker 1: and then magined coming in from one hundred miles on
[8:47] Speaker 1: all of our borders north and south and Alaska, Okay,
[8:51] Speaker 1: you're taking in wilderness areas in Washington, You're taking in
[8:56] Speaker 1: wilderness areas in Idaho, You're taking wilderness area is in Montana.
[9:02] Speaker 1: Jumping eastward from there, where this this grabs hold of
[9:06] Speaker 1: all of the boundary waters area. It would come into
[9:12] Speaker 1: areas in Maine National Parks, wilderness areas in California, wilderness
[9:18] Speaker 1: areas in Arizona, wilderness areas in New Mexico, Big Ben
[9:22] Speaker 1: National Park in Texas, Tungus Wilderness Area in Alaska, wrangle
[9:28] Speaker 1: Saint Elias Park and Preserve in Alaska. So this is
[9:31] Speaker 1: a I mean this you can one hand go like, oh,
[9:34] Speaker 1: it's a one hundred mile buffer, but you need to
[9:35] Speaker 1: appreciate what we're talking about when we talk about a
[9:37] Speaker 1: one hundred mile buffer coming in from our borders, like
[9:40] Speaker 1: it's it's grabbing onto a huge swaths of land.
[9:45] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right. And I'll note that the one
[9:48] Speaker 3: you know, the one type or the types of land jurisdictions,
[9:52] Speaker 3: that this bill is not specific to our tribal land,
[9:56] Speaker 3: state lands, and private lands. Other than that, it's take
[10:00] Speaker 3: can you know, the stroke of a paint brush within
[10:03] Speaker 3: that hundred mile buffer, And any land that's administered by
[10:07] Speaker 3: the federal government under d o I and U s
[10:09] Speaker 3: d A is subject to these measures in this bill.
[10:13] Speaker 3: So as you mentioned everything, everything administered by d U I,
[10:17] Speaker 3: by us DA, all those national parks, all those uh
[10:20] Speaker 3: you know, forest Service units, all those b l M
[10:23] Speaker 3: Field offices, wilderness study areas, wilderness like, they are all
[10:28] Speaker 3: subject to the measures in this bill, all within that
[10:31] Speaker 3: hunter mile buffer, and those are there's a couple of
[10:33] Speaker 3: other key points when we get to the wilderness portion
[10:35] Speaker 3: of this that I'll also I'll make I'll make sure
[10:38] Speaker 3: to distinguish. But you know, basically within this hunter mile
[10:41] Speaker 3: buffer on the northern and southern boundaries, UH Department of
[10:45] Speaker 3: Homeland Security is going to work in coordination with d
[10:48] Speaker 3: U I and U s d A too, inventory what
[10:51] Speaker 3: they would consider illegal roads and trails that are been
[10:54] Speaker 3: that have been created by illegal border crossings. And that's
[10:58] Speaker 3: important because one, how do we herman if in fact
[11:01] Speaker 3: a road or a trail is created by illegal border crossing,
[11:06] Speaker 3: and if these agencies, if these land management agencies determine
[11:10] Speaker 3: that in fact these roads were created by illegal border crossing,
[11:14] Speaker 3: then it's providing DHS Department Homeland Security the authority to
[11:19] Speaker 3: then create and manage these roads as navigable roads for
[11:24] Speaker 3: the sake of border security. So installing infrastructure technology that
[11:30] Speaker 3: can monitor border security and illegal border crossings and put
[11:35] Speaker 3: and prevent those from happening in the future. And so
[11:38] Speaker 3: it really opens up this can of worms of you know,
[11:41] Speaker 3: deciding whether or not these roads actually are illegal, and
[11:45] Speaker 3: whether or not these trails are illegal and if so,
[11:48] Speaker 3: be able to be managed, and it doesn't really consider
[11:51] Speaker 3: the impacts to developing these roads. You know, currently a
[11:56] Speaker 3: lot of these agencies go through travel management plans where
[11:59] Speaker 3: they tory the road use system and determine whether or
[12:02] Speaker 3: not these roads are navigable or innavigable, and create this
[12:08] Speaker 3: kind of access plan, this map that you that I
[12:12] Speaker 3: that others can then access public plans, and they do
[12:15] Speaker 3: a pretty meticulous job of being able to lay out
[12:19] Speaker 3: this footprint of what's considered navigable. Right, you want to
[12:22] Speaker 3: you want to protect wildlife, you want to you know,
[12:24] Speaker 3: protect wildlife habitat, there's cultural resource protection when it comes
[12:29] Speaker 3: to managing these roads, and so allowing for this kind
[12:32] Speaker 3: of unregulated development of roads really I think puts a
[12:39] Speaker 3: lot of important things in the crosshairs along this buffer.
[12:43] Speaker 3: And and like you hinted to you, I mean one
[12:46] Speaker 3: hundred mile buffer to me, is is outrageous, right, I
[12:50] Speaker 3: mean we're talking from the southern the southern border to
[12:53] Speaker 3: almost Tucson, Arizona. Right. It encapsulates a lot of country
[12:59] Speaker 3: that they are claiming be important for border security. And
[13:02] Speaker 3: in my perspective, I think it's a little outrageous to
[13:05] Speaker 3: think that a hundred mile buffer and all the different
[13:08] Speaker 3: types of land jurisdictions and land management UH land jurisdictions
[13:12] Speaker 3: within that hunter mile buffer are really going to lend
[13:15] Speaker 3: to increasing border security.
[13:18] Speaker 1: So I have struggle a little bit just to understand
[13:21] Speaker 1: even the logic there that it'd be that if you
[13:24] Speaker 1: were to determine if someone were to determine that a
[13:27] Speaker 1: road that an illegal road, say on BLM Land and
[13:31] Speaker 1: illegal road on BLM Land, or like an unregistered road
[13:35] Speaker 1: on BLM Land, or an illegal trail on BLM Land,
[13:39] Speaker 1: that they determined to have been utilized by illegal immigrants
[13:46] Speaker 1: or for my for for illegal immigration of some part,
[13:50] Speaker 1: that that would then give you justification to go in
[13:53] Speaker 1: and make it into a road.
[13:57] Speaker 2: Wilders exactly.
[13:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, in wilderness and non wilderness. It's it's mind boggling
[14:03] Speaker 3: to me to to think about how these how the
[14:08] Speaker 3: mandates in this bill and and those land management agencies,
[14:11] Speaker 3: how they will come to the conclusion saying that these
[14:14] Speaker 3: trails and these roads were created by illegal border crossing.
[14:18] Speaker 3: You know, how how do you determine that? Right?
[14:20] Speaker 1: Like?
[14:20] Speaker 3: That's I think that's kind of the big question I
[14:23] Speaker 3: have in my mind is you know, when it comes
[14:25] Speaker 3: to a trail, for instance, I mean you and I
[14:27] Speaker 3: hunt a lot where we're in places where you know, livestock,
[14:32] Speaker 3: whether that's a you know, a grazing allotment or what
[14:34] Speaker 3: have you, or in a lot of areas we tend
[14:36] Speaker 3: to occupy. You know, if cattle are utilizing a trail
[14:41] Speaker 3: that they've created, and you know, let's just say there's
[14:45] Speaker 3: a boot track on there, does that mean that that
[14:48] Speaker 3: road was used and created by illegals and now it
[14:50] Speaker 3: gets to be managed by Department of Homeland Security and
[14:54] Speaker 3: in a fashion that allows them to access you know,
[14:57] Speaker 3: these these areas. If a road was created by illegal
[15:01] Speaker 3: OHV use, or it was once determined to be navigable
[15:05] Speaker 3: and has since been deemed innavigable, so it's no longer
[15:09] Speaker 3: accessible to the public, how do you determine that that
[15:12] Speaker 3: road was road was created by by illegal border crossing
[15:15] Speaker 3: and then be able to reopen that road?
[15:18] Speaker 2: Right?
[15:19] Speaker 3: How The question I have next, next to what I
[15:22] Speaker 3: just pointed out, is then how do you enforce these
[15:26] Speaker 3: roads to be used for the intent in which the
[15:28] Speaker 3: bill describes and not for all this extracurricular activity like
[15:33] Speaker 3: illegal OHV use. I think there's I think there's a
[15:37] Speaker 3: bigger question to be had, which is who's gonna who's
[15:40] Speaker 3: gonna front the cost for developing these roads. I think
[15:43] Speaker 3: right now, when you look at the deferred maintenance to
[15:45] Speaker 3: agencies like uh for service in BLM, there's hundreds of
[15:51] Speaker 3: thousands of miles of roads that are deteriorating because these
[15:55] Speaker 3: agencies don't have the resources to manage the roads that
[15:57] Speaker 3: they have considered and deemed to be navigable through these
[16:00] Speaker 3: travel management plans. And we're asking we're asking these agencies
[16:05] Speaker 3: to create more roads and take away from roads that
[16:09] Speaker 3: they've already seemed to be accessible and the management and
[16:13] Speaker 3: the resources you know that they need to manage those roads.
[16:18] Speaker 3: There's a lot to unpack there, and so I think
[16:21] Speaker 3: there's a lot of questions, and I think the bill
[16:23] Speaker 3: doesn't do a great job of defining how these actions
[16:29] Speaker 3: are going to be conducted. And those are part of
[16:32] Speaker 3: the part of the many problems I have with the bill.
[16:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, in a minute, let's get into a little bit
[16:36] Speaker 1: of the how these bills come up, where they leave
[16:40] Speaker 1: so many details up to one's imagination, and that in
[16:43] Speaker 1: some ways was attributable to the sinking of the sell
[16:47] Speaker 1: off plan, where the sell off plan went through a
[16:51] Speaker 1: handful of versions. They had these permutations, and in the
[16:54] Speaker 1: end someone realized, and it was pointed out, and this
[16:57] Speaker 1: was acknowledged by the office that put it forward. It
[16:59] Speaker 1: was pointed out even though this was put together as
[17:03] Speaker 1: this idea of addressing affordable housing, and the way the
[17:06] Speaker 1: bill was written, you couldn't have prevented foreign governments from
[17:12] Speaker 1: buying the land. Right, So you wind up in this
[17:16] Speaker 1: thing like you're saying it's one thing, but then you're
[17:19] Speaker 1: not clarifying with enough level of detail about how it
[17:23] Speaker 1: would be determined. I would be able to take it
[17:25] Speaker 1: a little more seriously. If someone was talking about a
[17:28] Speaker 1: three mile buffer, a five mile buffer, a ten mile buffer,
[17:32] Speaker 1: I'd be able to look at it and be like, yeah,
[17:33] Speaker 1: I'm willing to at least take this at face value.
[17:37] Speaker 1: But when you've gotten one hundred miles north of the
[17:42] Speaker 1: border with Mexico or one hundred miles south of the
[17:48] Speaker 1: border in Idaho, like, at that point, I don't think
[17:53] Speaker 1: we're talking about immigration anymore, and so it opens up
[17:56] Speaker 1: this question of like, what is it really about. If
[17:59] Speaker 1: it was a five mile thing, I'd be like, Okay,
[18:00] Speaker 1: this is about immigration. One hundred miles is about something
[18:04] Speaker 1: entirely different, and we'll get to that in a minute.
[18:06] Speaker 1: But let's get into a couple of these components. One
[18:09] Speaker 1: of the ways that they're trying to sell this again
[18:12] Speaker 1: couching it in language that anyone would agree with. This
[18:15] Speaker 1: is like a tactic, right. You say, like, oh, border security, Well,
[18:18] Speaker 1: who wouldn't want border security? Right, must be a good
[18:21] Speaker 1: idea here. They're like, hey, this will help with search
[18:24] Speaker 1: and rescue. Explain that component.
[18:30] Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's important to note that the search and
[18:33] Speaker 3: rescue piece is basically also tied to this amending the
[18:38] Speaker 3: Wilderness Act.
[18:38] Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm out of order. Then let's get into
[18:42] Speaker 1: amending the Wilderness Act.
[18:43] Speaker 3: You bet so. A big component of this bill is
[18:47] Speaker 3: to amend the nineteen six or nineteen sixty nineteen sixty
[18:50] Speaker 3: four excuse me, Wilderness Preservation Act to allow for the
[18:54] Speaker 3: use of developing roads using motorized mechanized travel of under
[19:00] Speaker 3: the hospice of search and rescue and border security, so
[19:04] Speaker 3: basically allowing the things that the Wilderness Act prevents for
[19:09] Speaker 3: the sake of border security. What's important to note is
[19:13] Speaker 3: that when it comes to search and rescue in wilderness areas,
[19:19] Speaker 3: a lot of the land use management agencies and local
[19:22] Speaker 3: law enforcement, local search and rescue already have plans in
[19:26] Speaker 3: place to one prevent more than is intended to when
[19:32] Speaker 3: it comes to you know, occupying and being in wilderness
[19:38] Speaker 3: areas to conduct those those search and rescue operations. So
[19:43] Speaker 3: they can already go in and use motorized mechanized travel
[19:47] Speaker 3: if it's deemed that they absolutely have to for the
[19:51] Speaker 3: sake of human life. They have these plans in place,
[19:54] Speaker 3: and they can go in there and they can fly
[19:57] Speaker 3: a helicopter, they can take a uh, you know, like
[20:01] Speaker 3: a gurney that's that's got a wheel on it, they
[20:04] Speaker 3: can travel in on potentially on four wheelers, or use
[20:07] Speaker 3: their motorized types of transportation in certain circumstances. These plans
[20:13] Speaker 3: are already coordinated and developed with those land use management agencies,
[20:18] Speaker 3: local law enforcement, search and rescue. And so what this
[20:22] Speaker 3: is trying to do is a you know, amend the
[20:24] Speaker 3: Wilderness Preservation Act to create those roads, to codify the
[20:29] Speaker 3: use of motorized mechanized operation in wilderness Act, which to
[20:34] Speaker 3: me is a really slippery slope. And earlier you mentioned
[20:39] Speaker 3: like how these bills are written and how kind of
[20:42] Speaker 3: things let's just say fly under the radar may not
[20:45] Speaker 3: be explicitly defined. This is an important piece because this
[20:50] Speaker 3: with this section of the bill does not clarify is
[20:55] Speaker 3: when it talks about amending the wilderness to create roads
[20:59] Speaker 3: motorized use with you know, for the sake of border security,
[21:03] Speaker 3: it does not explicitly mention that it's with that it's
[21:07] Speaker 3: wilderness areas within the hundred mile buffer, right, It's just
[21:12] Speaker 3: it's just amending the Wilderness Preservation Act. So technically it
[21:17] Speaker 3: applies to all wilderness areas, you know, aside from those
[21:23] Speaker 3: within that hundred mile buffer. So in my mind that
[21:26] Speaker 3: means if you can justify that building roads in wilderness
[21:31] Speaker 3: areas is for the sake of border security, it can
[21:33] Speaker 3: be it can be any wilderness in our country.
[21:37] Speaker 1: Or building roads is helpful for search and rescue apparently exactly. Yeah, okay,
[21:45] Speaker 1: we got into some of the details here. What is
[21:48] Speaker 1: your take the earlier I use like a term cynical,
[21:52] Speaker 1: and I'm a little I'm not totally happy with word
[21:55] Speaker 1: choice on that. But what you see is again and
[21:59] Speaker 1: again you see see these things that they're they're they're
[22:02] Speaker 1: trying to couch it as one thing, but what they're
[22:05] Speaker 1: talking about is something else. Okay, So here it's taking
[22:09] Speaker 1: this idea of border security, this idea of search and
[22:12] Speaker 1: rescue and and and lo and behold, what does it
[22:15] Speaker 1: really come down to? It comes down to like weakening
[22:18] Speaker 1: protections on wilderness areas and making it easier to.
[22:22] Speaker 2: Develop and do road building.
[22:26] Speaker 1: Uh do you like in your view and your analysis
[22:30] Speaker 1: of this, do you do you feel that that's fair?
[22:33] Speaker 2: Like it?
[22:33] Speaker 1: Do you feel that there really is I hate to
[22:35] Speaker 1: use it, but like, is there like a sort of
[22:39] Speaker 1: conspiracy of sorts of trying to use whatever tools are applicable,
[22:44] Speaker 1: whatever national crises we have, affordable housing, border security, whatever
[22:49] Speaker 1: it is, to try to just do anything to weaken
[22:54] Speaker 1: protections on wilderness areas and weakened protections on public lands.
[22:57] Speaker 1: And if that's true, like what is the end game? Like,
[22:59] Speaker 1: how does that ultimately get them what they want?
[23:05] Speaker 2: Yeah?
[23:05] Speaker 3: I mean I think, you know, from like the conspiracy perspective,
[23:13] Speaker 3: it's hard not to think that there's these ulterior motives
[23:18] Speaker 3: when it comes to these types of bills and legislation.
[23:22] Speaker 3: I mean we've seen time and time, you know, time
[23:25] Speaker 3: and time again where individuals like Senator Lee or others
[23:29] Speaker 3: just don't have the same perspective of public lands that
[23:33] Speaker 3: you and I or others do, and therefore I think
[23:37] Speaker 3: their perspective of public LANs is a much more you know,
[23:41] Speaker 3: let's just call it an asset driven mindset, where they
[23:44] Speaker 3: look at public lands and they see different types of
[23:51] Speaker 3: investments that they can return on these assets, right, different
[23:54] Speaker 3: types of ways that these lands can be more profitable
[23:58] Speaker 3: than they already are than just create open spaces where
[24:01] Speaker 3: we can recreate, where we can hunt, where we can fish.
[24:03] Speaker 3: And in their minds, I don't believe that this is
[24:06] Speaker 3: something that they enjoy seeing and how public lands are
[24:10] Speaker 3: used are utilized, and you know, for that reason, I
[24:13] Speaker 3: think we've seen these assaults on public lands through different
[24:18] Speaker 3: different efforts, the reconciliation processes that you that you meant earlier.
[24:22] Speaker 3: And so it's hard for me to think that these
[24:25] Speaker 3: bills when I see them, are just focused on what
[24:28] Speaker 3: the title of the bill is written as right I have.
[24:32] Speaker 3: I can't help but think that there's that there's these
[24:36] Speaker 3: these details, that there's these underlying efforts within within the
[24:41] Speaker 3: these bills that are aimed at attacking and undermining public
[24:46] Speaker 3: lands from multiple perspectives, like getting more access. Therefore you
[24:50] Speaker 3: can potentially have non you know, you can have more
[24:55] Speaker 3: resource extraction or irresponsible use of public lands. I think
[25:00] Speaker 3: it's a slippery slope. And I think they're they're recognizing
[25:03] Speaker 3: that they have to be a little bit craftier, a
[25:06] Speaker 3: little bit more creative and how they attack public lands.
[25:09] Speaker 3: And so you know, you said it, you said it
[25:12] Speaker 3: spot on, Like using terms like affordable housing, border security.
[25:17] Speaker 3: I think terms that maybe hit hit near and dear
[25:19] Speaker 3: to a lot of Americans, you know, lives and homes.
[25:24] Speaker 3: Like I do think by trying to create these kind
[25:26] Speaker 3: of false narratives, by trying to get people on board
[25:29] Speaker 3: for these ideas that really aren't the root of what
[25:33] Speaker 3: is intended by these pieces of legislation, I can't help
[25:37] Speaker 3: I can't help but think there's there's more to it
[25:39] Speaker 3: than than what we're reading.
[25:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to use too hyperbolic of language here,
[25:44] Speaker 1: like like I just want to, you know, acknowledge these
[25:48] Speaker 1: things are coming from you know, patriotic people who no
[25:53] Speaker 1: doubt love their families and love their communities. It's just
[25:56] Speaker 1: we're like ideologically opposed an issue. My view is that
[26:03] Speaker 1: undeveloped landscapes are of extreme value and will become more
[26:08] Speaker 1: and more valuable over time, and that preserving them. Conserving
[26:13] Speaker 1: them comes at no cost to us. They're still there,
[26:17] Speaker 1: they will still be there later on. Once as the
[26:22] Speaker 1: world gets developed, as the nation gets developed, as our
[26:25] Speaker 1: last wildernesses get developed, will burned through an asset and
[26:30] Speaker 1: will later regret what we did. And I think that
[26:35] Speaker 1: there are some activities hunting, fishing, hiking, those are things
[26:38] Speaker 1: that I'm interested in. There are some activities that can
[26:41] Speaker 1: go on right now without having adverse impact on these
[26:45] Speaker 1: great American assets. So I don't want to when I
[26:48] Speaker 1: use the word conspiracy, I don't want to act like
[26:50] Speaker 1: someone's objective in putting this forward, that the objective is
[26:52] Speaker 1: to be like evil or something. It's just like a
[26:56] Speaker 1: different thing. Some people look at undevelop landscape and they
[27:01] Speaker 1: see wasted opportunity. I look at undeveloped landscape, and I
[27:05] Speaker 1: see an incredible asset in the nation's bank that can
[27:10] Speaker 1: bring enjoyment and mental health and physical health to all
[27:14] Speaker 1: Americans while we hold it. And it might be h
[27:19] Speaker 1: and I know, like without a doubt to me, will
[27:22] Speaker 1: be of far more value to future generations than it
[27:25] Speaker 1: is to us now. And and in in our in
[27:27] Speaker 1: our undeveloped landscapes are at their most valuable state as
[27:31] Speaker 1: they sit, right, it's like it's an asset. So yeah,
[27:35] Speaker 1: I don't want to put this in terms of of
[27:40] Speaker 1: good versus evil. It's like it's like it's an ideological
[27:43] Speaker 1: battle with real with real results, like like real things
[27:48] Speaker 1: are pivoting on this.
[27:49] Speaker 2: Okay, what now?
[27:54] Speaker 1: And then you see where people put forward pieces of
[27:58] Speaker 1: legislation that you know aren't to be taken seriously, like
[28:04] Speaker 1: people do it. There's a performative quality to some legislation.
[28:10] Speaker 1: When there was talk of giving an example, when some
[28:14] Speaker 1: guy put forth legislation that would have put Trump on
[28:18] Speaker 1: Mount Rushmore, it was performative, right for a lot of
[28:22] Speaker 1: people that it was good for a laugh. It sparked
[28:24] Speaker 1: a lot of conversation like is there really room on
[28:27] Speaker 1: Mount Rushmore? What is Mount Rushmore made of? Where would
[28:29] Speaker 1: you put it? What's the history of Mount Rushmore? But
[28:32] Speaker 1: in the end, it was like a performative gesture. It
[28:34] Speaker 1: was never something that was meant to be advanced and
[28:39] Speaker 1: signed into law.
[28:40] Speaker 2: Right, is this is this like making a statement?
[28:47] Speaker 1: Is it trying to like advance an idea that future
[28:50] Speaker 1: generations might pick up on?
[28:52] Speaker 2: Like what is this? Is this serious?
[28:56] Speaker 3: I think it can very well be serious, and I
[28:59] Speaker 3: do think it's somewhat performative. I think it's you know,
[29:04] Speaker 3: Senator Lee and other co sponsors, you know, diping their
[29:08] Speaker 3: their toe in the water to do a temperature check
[29:10] Speaker 3: and see how a bill like this is perceived and
[29:14] Speaker 3: whether or not it's going to get the support and
[29:16] Speaker 3: the attention to gain some traction and potentially move forward.
[29:20] Speaker 3: I hope it's it's kind of all smoke no fire
[29:24] Speaker 3: for a lot of the reasons that we've been talking about.
[29:26] Speaker 3: You know, it's it's interesting when you look at this
[29:28] Speaker 3: bill to see who the co sponsors are. And I
[29:32] Speaker 3: say that because there's only one co sponsor that's occupying
[29:36] Speaker 3: a state that is relative to the language and this bill,
[29:40] Speaker 3: and that Senator Cruise out of Texas. You don't see
[29:43] Speaker 3: other Republican or Democratic senators along these these border states
[29:49] Speaker 3: that are co sponsoring this bill.
[29:51] Speaker 1: Well, that's funny you mentioned that, because I mean Utahs,
[29:53] Speaker 1: it's well outside of the hundred Senator Lee's state of Utahs,
[29:57] Speaker 1: it's well outside the buffer. I see your representative from
[30:01] Speaker 1: Wyoming sits outside of the buffer. But you're right, Senator
[30:04] Speaker 1: Ted Cruz of Texas is has portions of his state
[30:10] Speaker 1: in the buffer zone and the very generous buffer zone.
[30:16] Speaker 3: That's right, And you don't see individuals like Senator Danes,
[30:20] Speaker 3: Senator she He, Senator Rish, like you know, you know,
[30:25] Speaker 3: those senators on the northern part of the of the border,
[30:29] Speaker 3: those people who you would who you would think if
[30:32] Speaker 3: this was an issue that was really important, you would
[30:35] Speaker 3: think that the states that are going to be impacted
[30:39] Speaker 3: by this legislation would have more of a of a
[30:43] Speaker 3: perspective on the bill. Maybe that's a maybe that's a sign, right,
[30:46] Speaker 3: Like maybe that's a sign that this this bill really
[30:49] Speaker 3: is just kind of an attention seeker and not going
[30:53] Speaker 3: to get the traction that or the seriousness that people
[30:57] Speaker 3: are going to think when they read it. And for
[31:00] Speaker 3: that reason, like maybe that's why those individuals don't, you know,
[31:03] Speaker 3: aren't sponsoring the bill. And you know, obviously that's me
[31:07] Speaker 3: just being you know, rather presumptuous. But I think when
[31:09] Speaker 3: I when I see the lack of those co sponsors,
[31:13] Speaker 3: I just have to ask those questions.
[31:14] Speaker 2: Got it?
[31:15] Speaker 1: And what do you think will happen? Like what's the
[31:17] Speaker 1: next step for a piece of legislation like this? Like
[31:19] Speaker 1: remember that remember that cartoon and your little kid, I'm
[31:21] Speaker 1: just a bill on Capitol.
[31:22] Speaker 2: Hill Like like what uh, like, what's what's next?
[31:27] Speaker 3: Well, it was it was refer to the Committee of
[31:30] Speaker 3: Energy and Natural Resources. So, amongst all the craziness that's
[31:35] Speaker 3: happening in DC right now, this bill has to be
[31:38] Speaker 3: put on the calendar by by E and R, by
[31:41] Speaker 3: sending E and R. And then once it's there, they
[31:44] Speaker 3: have to to listen to the bill and they have
[31:45] Speaker 3: to vote on it to pass it out of committee,
[31:48] Speaker 3: and then there it goes on its own kind of
[31:50] Speaker 3: trajectory to potentially being voted on on the Senate floor.
[31:54] Speaker 3: Has to have a house companion. You know, it still
[31:58] Speaker 3: has a long route before it's even i would say,
[32:01] Speaker 3: remotely considered serious. But the fact that it was introduced
[32:06] Speaker 3: is serious enough for me to want to talk to.
[32:08] Speaker 2: You about it.
[32:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, and this will come up under an early and
[32:13] Speaker 1: an early person that will get a look at this
[32:15] Speaker 1: as Senator Heinrich from New Mexico, who has you know,
[32:20] Speaker 1: who represents landscape within this buffer. He's a big oh,
[32:26] Speaker 1: you know, like a very informed, very dedicated defender of
[32:30] Speaker 1: public lands.
[32:31] Speaker 2: Like, what's his take on this going to be?
[32:34] Speaker 3: Well? I imagine Senator Heinrich that, as you mentioned as
[32:36] Speaker 3: a champion for conservation, champion for public lands, somebody who
[32:41] Speaker 3: you know gets out on hunts and fish fishes on
[32:44] Speaker 3: our public lands. I think when he sees a bill
[32:47] Speaker 3: like this, he's gonna ask a lot of questions and
[32:49] Speaker 3: he's gonna pick it apart, kind of as we've been
[32:51] Speaker 3: picking it apart on this conversation. I don't think a
[32:54] Speaker 3: bill like this is going to actually, I know a
[32:56] Speaker 3: bill like this is not going to land well with
[32:59] Speaker 3: with Senator him Rick. I think it will do a
[33:02] Speaker 3: brilliant job of asking those important underlying questions of the
[33:06] Speaker 3: intention and rationale of this bill. And you know, with
[33:10] Speaker 3: that being said, I hope the result is is the
[33:13] Speaker 3: bill doesn't move out of committee and is essentially dead
[33:16] Speaker 3: upon arrival.
[33:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, but it is, man, it's like a very interesting
[33:20] Speaker 1: and like I said, I didn't know about it, and
[33:22] Speaker 1: you know we were together right around this time when
[33:24] Speaker 1: this came out. You're the one that explained it to me,
[33:27] Speaker 1: and I thought that regardless of where it lands, and
[33:30] Speaker 1: it's it's very early to say, it's a very it's
[33:33] Speaker 1: an interesting civics lesson and it's an interesting look into
[33:38] Speaker 1: how people are. And it's the point I keep making
[33:42] Speaker 1: an interesting look at how people could have a historic
[33:46] Speaker 1: extra grind, like a career long set of goals. In
[33:50] Speaker 1: this case, if your career long set of goals is
[33:55] Speaker 1: to reduce protections on public lands and open up developant
[34:00] Speaker 1: and industrialization of wildlands, that's like the career long goal.
[34:06] Speaker 1: The way in which you can look for opportunities in
[34:11] Speaker 1: the national dialogue to be like, oh, that's how I'm
[34:16] Speaker 1: going to talk about my perennial issue, and then the
[34:19] Speaker 1: conversation changes and there's like a lot of talk about
[34:21] Speaker 1: affordable housing.
[34:22] Speaker 2: Let's say that's how.
[34:24] Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about my perennial issue, and then
[34:26] Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk about illegal immigration. That's how
[34:29] Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about my perennial issue. And it
[34:32] Speaker 1: brings to mind this analogy of that the bottle of
[34:36] Speaker 1: the wine stays the same, but you continue to apply
[34:41] Speaker 1: a new label onto that wine. And so it's just
[34:46] Speaker 1: as it's a fascinating glimpse into the thinking here, I
[34:52] Speaker 1: hope listeners like give like start paying more attention to
[34:56] Speaker 1: that in the years that are coming, as we continue
[34:58] Speaker 1: to have these conversations and thank you Jeremy to come
[35:02] Speaker 1: on and explaining this and telling me about it again.
[35:04] Speaker 1: I think it's, like I said, if nothing else, is
[35:06] Speaker 1: a great civics lesson for people.
[35:09] Speaker 3: Yeah, I uh, I really appreciate you letting me come
[35:12] Speaker 3: on and talk about the bill. You know, any attack
[35:14] Speaker 3: on public land is important to me to get out
[35:17] Speaker 3: there and and and talk about and advocate for public
[35:20] Speaker 3: lands and the right to hunt and fish and protecting
[35:23] Speaker 3: these areas for future generations. So we're going to keep,
[35:26] Speaker 3: you know, our eye on this bill. We're going we're
[35:28] Speaker 3: going to do our due diligence to to make sure
[35:31] Speaker 3: a bill like this doesn't doesn't have a future and
[35:34] Speaker 3: you know in the future, you know, keeping keeping ah,
[35:38] Speaker 3: you know, keeping a close eye on legislation that comes
[35:41] Speaker 3: out and looking at how they are somewhat uh, you know,
[35:45] Speaker 3: disguised in different ways. And I recommend people do their
[35:49] Speaker 3: their due diligence and look at look at bills, look
[35:52] Speaker 3: at legislation, not just for what the title of the
[35:54] Speaker 3: legislation is, but what the actual action items in legislation are.
[35:59] Speaker 3: And I encourage you to be active. Reach out to
[36:01] Speaker 3: you or you know, your congressional members, and you know
[36:05] Speaker 3: be be an engaged member of society. I think has
[36:09] Speaker 3: the reconciliation process and the public lands sealoff kind of
[36:13] Speaker 3: played out, we saw a tremendous amount of support from
[36:17] Speaker 3: everybody on both sides of the aisle, you know, whether
[36:20] Speaker 3: you whether you hunt and fished or didn't like it.
[36:24] Speaker 3: We all came together and pushed back on the public
[36:28] Speaker 3: land sealoff and it was an extraordinary thing to see.
[36:31] Speaker 3: And I just hope that we can continue to have
[36:34] Speaker 3: those shared visions when it comes to pieces of legislation
[36:37] Speaker 3: like this. So Steve, again, I think I thank you
[36:39] Speaker 3: for letting me come on and talk about this bill,
[36:41] Speaker 3: and we'll just keep tracking, keep tracking it.
[36:44] Speaker 1: Okay, uh again you're hearing from Jeremy Romero from the
[36:49] Speaker 1: National Wildlife Federation, a very avid.
[36:54] Speaker 2: Hunter angler out of New Mexico. Thank you, thanks again, Jeremy.
[36:59] Speaker 3: Thanks

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