# Ep. 858: The Science and Magic of Hot Dogs

An episode of [The MeatEater Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/960902903), 6 Apr 2026, 2 h 10 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/63aba8bc-2dc8-4f89-807a-ae280065a7cd/fb18663e-f7f2-4c68-8379-b42001200181/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=3892b9a1-a960-4f9e-bee7-ae280065a7db

Steven Rinella talks with hot dog expert John Carter of Viskase and Randall Williams. Topics discussed: The history of hot dogs; the science of meat emulsions; characteristics of the perfect hot dog; what goes into the dogs; clean factories; skinless casings; the importance of salt and ice; why it’s so tough to make a good wild game hot dog; and more. Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:08] Speaker 1: If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless.
[0:12] Speaker 2: Severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening past,
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[0:25] Speaker 2: Light builds, no compromise, gear that keeps me in the
[0:29] Speaker 2: field longer, no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it
[0:33] Speaker 2: out at first light dot com.
[0:35] Speaker 1: That's f I R S T L I T E
[0:39] Speaker 1: dot com.
[0:43] Speaker 2: All right, everybody, we're if you ever wanted to know
[0:46] Speaker 2: everything you'd ever wanted to know about hot dogs and sausages,
[0:48] Speaker 2: not your chance, joined today by your mechanical engineer. Mechanical engineer,
[0:53] Speaker 2: mechanical engineer and hot dog expert. John Carter from Alabama
[1:00] Speaker 2: came on the show because we were talking Randall. It
[1:03] Speaker 2: is a big explain how the.
[1:04] Speaker 1: Whole thing happened. Rand This is your this is your deal.
[1:06] Speaker 3: Well, we were talking about uh making hot dogs with
[1:10] Speaker 3: Jesse Griffiths and I received an email.
[1:15] Speaker 4: Roman passed it along.
[1:16] Speaker 3: There was an email sent to the podcast the mediator
[1:19] Speaker 3: at the medater whatever dot com, and it's it was
[1:23] Speaker 3: rather bold in its tone. He said, I don't know
[1:27] Speaker 3: what sort of quack hack you've got lined up here.
[1:32] Speaker 3: We hadn't mentioned Jesse by name, so it was not
[1:34] Speaker 3: a personal side against Jesse, but I said, we're working
[1:36] Speaker 3: with someone. He said, I know all about hot dogs,
[1:41] Speaker 3: the science of hot dogs. Uh, And he said I
[1:45] Speaker 3: could guarantee you that I can give you. It caught
[1:48] Speaker 3: my I'm glad that you worded it that way because
[1:50] Speaker 3: it caught my attention. And I called you up and
[1:52] Speaker 3: I talked to you for thirty or forty minutes about
[1:55] Speaker 3: hot dogs. You cleared up some misconceptions that I had
[1:58] Speaker 3: in my own mind about a subjec near and dear
[2:00] Speaker 3: to my heart. And I said to Steve, this should
[2:04] Speaker 3: just be a podcast, because I think I came into
[2:07] Speaker 3: you with maybe the two things that really had my
[2:09] Speaker 3: head spinning about caseless technology.
[2:13] Speaker 4: And I learned about lunch meat on that call.
[2:15] Speaker 3: And I sort of paced around my house for a
[2:18] Speaker 3: few few minutes afterwards, just thinking how little I knew
[2:22] Speaker 3: about something you thought you knew I thought I knew
[2:24] Speaker 3: all about. And so here we find ourselves.
[2:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, because initially what was going on is I was
[2:30] Speaker 2: talking about wanting to make a video about making roller dogs, right,
[2:36] Speaker 2: meaning making hot dogs and in our world, in the
[2:42] Speaker 2: in our world of sort of wild game and fancy
[2:46] Speaker 2: food things, people hear hot dogs making hot dogs of
[2:50] Speaker 2: deer meat, and they always are in their mind they're
[2:53] Speaker 2: trying to elevate the hot dog or add a spin
[2:58] Speaker 2: on a hot dog. And so I started saying, Okay,
[3:01] Speaker 2: never mind hot dog, I'm talking about roller dogs, meaning
[3:05] Speaker 2: when you go into a gas station and you find
[3:10] Speaker 2: hot dogs at a shockingly low price. Right, Okay, there
[3:17] Speaker 2: was a if you're in siouxs like in Michigan, there's Sue,
[3:21] Speaker 2: Ontario and Sue, Michigan, sister cities separated by the Saint
[3:25] Speaker 2: Mary's River. The Canadians always want to pull into our
[3:31] Speaker 2: gas station because they can get smokes and stuff cheaper
[3:36] Speaker 2: than can get them over in their own country. So
[3:38] Speaker 2: this is a big gas station full of Canucks going
[3:41] Speaker 2: in there to do to get gas. They fill up, right,
[3:45] Speaker 2: because America just has some things are cheaper in America.
[3:49] Speaker 2: This place used to have four roller dogs. This is
[3:52] Speaker 2: I'm going back to early nineties. Four roller dogs for
[3:56] Speaker 2: a dollar.
[3:59] Speaker 1: Sometimes insane hot dog prices.
[4:01] Speaker 5: It's impressive.
[4:02] Speaker 2: So if I'm like, how do you make a hot dog?
[4:10] Speaker 2: We wanted to make a video about it. So that's
[4:11] Speaker 2: why we were like trying to find hot dog experts.
[4:13] Speaker 1: And then you wrote in saying that the hot dog
[4:15] Speaker 1: experts were using aren't up to the job.
[4:18] Speaker 2: Well, we're sitting here again, and I don't want a
[4:20] Speaker 2: hack on. This is a great This is a sausage.
[4:23] Speaker 2: If you can see in the camera, Philly, they can
[4:24] Speaker 2: see this. Yes, there's a couple of little scraps. Someone
[4:28] Speaker 2: sent these in. They sent it under a package called
[4:31] Speaker 2: roller Dogs. It's a Venison roller dogs. It's an elevated
[4:36] Speaker 2: it's delicious.
[4:37] Speaker 1: It's delicious. If I made that, I'd be proud of myself.
[4:40] Speaker 1: Ain't a hot dog?
[4:41] Speaker 5: Right?
[4:42] Speaker 1: In a hot dog?
[4:43] Speaker 3: It's like if someone said, oh, I make an oreo,
[4:46] Speaker 3: but it's better than oreos, and it's they have like
[4:49] Speaker 3: a little chocolate cookie and there's some cream filler and
[4:52] Speaker 3: another chocolate cookie. It might be a great cookie, but
[4:56] Speaker 3: it's not gonna tickle all the Oreo notes.
[5:00] Speaker 2: Because when someone yeah, you're right, they would make it,
[5:03] Speaker 2: they'd be like, oh, no, it's an oreo, but it's better.
[5:05] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[5:06] Speaker 5: And when a consumer goes into a store, they make
[5:08] Speaker 5: a purchase on two points. My wallet what's the thing
[5:12] Speaker 5: look like? Okay, visually because you haven't tasted it yet, right,
[5:16] Speaker 5: so you can't make a decision on taste. So it's
[5:18] Speaker 5: gonna be how much does it cost and what's it
[5:21] Speaker 5: visually look like?
[5:22] Speaker 1: Okay?
[5:22] Speaker 5: And those are key points for the whole processed meat
[5:26] Speaker 5: industry is visual appeal price point. And I think what
[5:31] Speaker 5: you're saying is I want that hot dog price point.
[5:35] Speaker 5: I want it to look and feel and taste like
[5:38] Speaker 5: a traditional store bought hot dog.
[5:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the goal. Tell me, Well, first off, give
[5:44] Speaker 1: me like, how'd your career go?
[5:45] Speaker 2: Like, how'd you wind up in the how'd you wind
[5:47] Speaker 2: up in the case like sausage casing hot dog biz.
[5:51] Speaker 5: It's a bizarre path. So, yeah, my senior year in
[5:55] Speaker 5: high school. So I'm gonna go all the way back
[5:56] Speaker 5: to nineteen ninety two.
[5:59] Speaker 1: That's the year you graduate.
[6:00] Speaker 5: I did me too, really, Hell yeah, seventy three.
[6:03] Speaker 1: I was back with hot dogs, roll the dogs. That
[6:05] Speaker 1: was like the kind of I do that. It's like
[6:07] Speaker 1: the Heyday roll. That's that's what we ate for breakfast
[6:09] Speaker 1: in high school.
[6:10] Speaker 5: Yeah, we probably put on there the night before and
[6:13] Speaker 5: you're getting getting the roller dog from.
[6:15] Speaker 2: Pull into Yeah, you'd pull into the station, buy five
[6:19] Speaker 2: dollars worth of gas one dollar worth of hot dogs, So.
[6:23] Speaker 5: That's in twenty seven to twenty eight to twenty nine millimeter.
[6:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, this is what got me when we're talking about
[6:30] Speaker 3: when we're talking about the boar diameter of a hot dog,
[6:34] Speaker 3: this is what really got me going. But yeah, we
[6:37] Speaker 3: had a Marathon gas station that was like two miles
[6:40] Speaker 3: from the high school and it was like ninety nine
[6:45] Speaker 3: cents for two dogs and a small fountain drink, and
[6:48] Speaker 3: then you could spend the other dollar. Yeah, and you
[6:51] Speaker 3: could spend the other dollar on a scratch off ticket.
[6:54] Speaker 3: So it was like the best of both worlds. You
[6:56] Speaker 3: knew what you were getting and you also dig.
[6:58] Speaker 1: Fountain for a dollar. Yeah.
[7:00] Speaker 2: Yo, this is nothing to do with any man. That's
[7:02] Speaker 2: why I throw this in. From nineteen ninety two whatever
[7:06] Speaker 2: we used to have. You ever hear a Hearty's the
[7:08] Speaker 2: restaurant Hardy's. We had a Hearty's near our high school.
[7:14] Speaker 2: Harty's was running this thing. I can't remember if it
[7:16] Speaker 2: was Tuesdays or Thursdays. Early in the morning.
[7:20] Speaker 1: It was all you could eat b and g biscuits
[7:23] Speaker 1: and gravy, all you could eat for a dollar ninety
[7:26] Speaker 1: nine and it would be a foam You'd go up
[7:30] Speaker 1: to the counter and you'd give you a foam square
[7:34] Speaker 1: and they'd just mount it with B and G and
[7:37] Speaker 1: you'd go back to your seat and you could barely
[7:39] Speaker 1: finish it. But if you did, you'd go up and
[7:41] Speaker 1: it'd held true to their word. They would hand you
[7:44] Speaker 1: another one of them foam trades, just mounted with that
[7:46] Speaker 1: like fake. There's some it was like milk and flour.
[7:50] Speaker 4: There's some gen zers listening to this right now, wondering
[7:52] Speaker 4: what's sort of.
[7:53] Speaker 1: A horrible world they're in herited.
[7:55] Speaker 5: My first job, at sixteen years old, I was a chef.
[8:00] Speaker 5: Had a little restaurant called.
[8:02] Speaker 1: Yeah not a cook ship, that's right.
[8:05] Speaker 5: I was in charge of the breakfast bar, and we
[8:08] Speaker 5: had all you can eat fried trump at Shoney. We'd
[8:11] Speaker 5: roll out your your reorder would come out, there'd be
[8:13] Speaker 5: two on the plate. We just keep sending you to,
[8:16] Speaker 5: keep sending you to until you got second.
[8:19] Speaker 1: You'd wear them out. You'd wear them out. Yeah, they
[8:21] Speaker 1: become physically exhausted before they became full through having the
[8:25] Speaker 1: refreshenir play.
[8:26] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[8:27] Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So your career nineteen ninety two. You
[8:29] Speaker 1: graduated ninety two.
[8:31] Speaker 5: I went to a physics class. My physics teacher in
[8:35] Speaker 5: high school was Robin Williams half brother. Really, it was
[8:40] Speaker 5: McLaurin Smith Williams Christian Brothers High School in Memphis, Tennessee.
[8:44] Speaker 1: Robin Williams half brother looked just.
[8:46] Speaker 5: Like him, had the same sense of humor and.
[8:50] Speaker 1: Writing poetry on the chalkboard.
[8:51] Speaker 5: It was awesome. So like I became this guy that
[8:55] Speaker 5: said I want to be an engineer because that one guy.
[8:59] Speaker 5: So I went in.
[9:00] Speaker 2: Because he was robbing William's half brother, because he was
[9:02] Speaker 2: inspiring in.
[9:03] Speaker 5: Him, inspiring in and of himself. Yeah.
[9:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, he didn't have a lot of jingle like his brother.
[9:09] Speaker 1: Wasn't passing a lot of jingle off to No.
[9:11] Speaker 5: He was a high school teacher and that you know that,
[9:15] Speaker 5: that's who he was. I got a picture of him.
[9:16] Speaker 5: I'll say, I'll show you look just like him.
[9:18] Speaker 1: That's great.
[9:19] Speaker 5: He uh So he wanted me to go to the
[9:22] Speaker 5: University of Tennessee to be a nuclear engineer. I wanted
[9:28] Speaker 5: to be a mechanical engineer. And I visited the University
[9:30] Speaker 5: of Alabama. And once you visit the University of Alabama.
[9:33] Speaker 5: You go to the University of Alabama. Just a beautiful campus.
[9:38] Speaker 5: That's just an amazing opportunity. Not not not throwing anything
[9:44] Speaker 5: out for day school or anything. I'm not a paid endorser.
[9:47] Speaker 1: But my boy, he's getting to the point where his
[9:49] Speaker 1: mom's starting to harass him about his college plans. Out
[9:51] Speaker 1: to throw that one out to him.
[9:52] Speaker 5: Visit Alabama. My daughter went there as well.
[9:55] Speaker 1: You know'll be a good you know what company you
[9:57] Speaker 1: he should start? Man, we'd kill it. Maybe we'll let
[9:59] Speaker 1: Randall in on it. If we started a company called
[10:01] Speaker 1: nuclear hot Dogs, it's a good idea. We might have
[10:06] Speaker 1: nuclear hot Dogs. We'd kill it on that.
[10:08] Speaker 5: It's good brand.
[10:09] Speaker 4: We might have missed the boat. I don't know. I
[10:11] Speaker 4: feel like there's.
[10:12] Speaker 1: Already one call.
[10:12] Speaker 4: There's got to be some guy out there clear hot dogs.
[10:14] Speaker 1: No, there's not.
[10:17] Speaker 4: I know atomic Burger.
[10:19] Speaker 1: Oh would they sue you? No, I don't know not
[10:24] Speaker 1: they would. They might try to cease and desist. You
[10:26] Speaker 1: just ignore it.
[10:27] Speaker 5: Atomic. Atomic and nuclear are pretty nuclear dogs. Those are
[10:30] Speaker 5: two totally different areas.
[10:32] Speaker 4: Let's look into that.
[10:33] Speaker 1: Go on, well, I will hash out the details on this.
[10:36] Speaker 5: Later went to went to Alabama, graduated mechanical engineering. Uh,
[10:42] Speaker 5: the whole plan was to be a process engineer. That
[10:45] Speaker 5: was the plan. And upon graduation means yeah, so every plant,
[10:50] Speaker 5: whether they make steel, they make hot dogs, they make paper,
[10:54] Speaker 5: they make cars, process engineers in them and their response.
[10:58] Speaker 5: They're responsible for optimized in the process, managing quality, improving
[11:03] Speaker 5: the efficiency of the plant, things of that nature. So
[11:06] Speaker 5: I did a co op so I would go to
[11:08] Speaker 5: school for a semester and then work for a semester,
[11:11] Speaker 5: then go to school, then work. So it's called a
[11:14] Speaker 5: co op program. So yeah, it took me six and
[11:18] Speaker 5: a half years to graduate college. But it's because I
[11:20] Speaker 5: worked aver smiths, I promise, Yeah, at a steel mill,
[11:24] Speaker 5: a cast iron pipe manufacturing facility in Birmingham, and I
[11:29] Speaker 5: was convinced that's what I was going to do and interviewed.
[11:33] Speaker 5: The job market was hot in ninety two or ninety
[11:36] Speaker 5: seven when I graduated, and.
[11:38] Speaker 1: I didn't dip in on that it was good.
[11:43] Speaker 5: I think I ended up getting like fish hot. I
[11:45] Speaker 5: got nine job offers coming out of college, and two
[11:48] Speaker 5: of them were sales jobs. Seriously, yeah, so two were
[11:52] Speaker 5: in sales, one was in the paper industry.
[11:55] Speaker 1: People come and looking for you, Yeah.
[11:57] Speaker 5: Me, who doesn't like this guy?
[11:59] Speaker 1: I know, but that's just funny.
[12:01] Speaker 5: I had a lot more.
[12:02] Speaker 2: Hey, if I'd gotten out of college and just waited
[12:03] Speaker 2: for someone to come looking for me, they weren't coming.
[12:06] Speaker 5: Right right the co op heal because that's what people
[12:09] Speaker 5: look for. They look for that experience. So I had
[12:11] Speaker 5: it by working every other semester. The sales jobs came
[12:15] Speaker 5: with a little bit more money, and the job I
[12:19] Speaker 5: eventually took came with a sweet nineteen ninety seven Chevy
[12:22] Speaker 5: astro Van as a car. And that's what kicked it
[12:26] Speaker 5: over the end.
[12:26] Speaker 1: Look a take home car, I was it got it.
[12:29] Speaker 5: So that took me into paper. So I worked in paper,
[12:34] Speaker 5: mostly in tissue and towel for a while, some timing,
[12:37] Speaker 5: leather and the source obviously for paper cellulose. The source
[12:45] Speaker 5: for hot dog casings the cellulose. So I knew of
[12:49] Speaker 5: the company I worked for now this case that from
[12:52] Speaker 5: that experience and wanted to try something new. So that's
[12:56] Speaker 5: what brought me into the hot dog. So I went
[12:58] Speaker 5: from Ron Williams half brother kind of down this weird.
[13:01] Speaker 2: Path to being a hot dog in the in the
[13:06] Speaker 2: process engineer at Atom of hot Dogs, can we touch
[13:12] Speaker 2: on leather thing because we're right before we started, just
[13:15] Speaker 2: very quickly touch on before we started. We visited just
[13:18] Speaker 2: as we were kind of gearing up, and you were
[13:21] Speaker 2: sharing with me that you've seen a lot of changes
[13:24] Speaker 2: in the the leather industry since the time you were
[13:28] Speaker 2: in it, and that a big driver, this is a pun, No,
[13:32] Speaker 2: it's like a pun neighbor. A big driver of the
[13:36] Speaker 2: leather industry is the automotive industry.
[13:39] Speaker 5: You touch on it so that, yeah, the leather industry
[13:42] Speaker 5: is run out of Italy because of the fashion roots,
[13:46] Speaker 5: So that's where everything's run. What drives a lot of
[13:51] Speaker 5: the volume and leather is automobile car seats, and it's
[13:55] Speaker 5: just just because of pure volume. You know, it takes
[13:58] Speaker 5: a lot more leather to make a car seat that
[14:00] Speaker 5: it does a boot.
[14:03] Speaker 2: And when we discussed that, I was sharing that a
[14:08] Speaker 2: friend of mine from high school, her her a friend
[14:12] Speaker 2: of mine from high school. Her mom was Bolivion and
[14:15] Speaker 2: I don't know how it all happened, but.
[14:17] Speaker 1: She wound up marrying a dude from South Africa who
[14:21] Speaker 1: was a leather byer and he bought leather for luxury
[14:25] Speaker 1: auto And again this is going back to this is
[14:28] Speaker 1: going back to that like this. The time that I
[14:31] Speaker 1: met him and that he was doing this would have
[14:32] Speaker 1: been early two thousands, and he was buying all this
[14:36] Speaker 1: leather down in South America.
[14:41] Speaker 2: I think maybe maybe we talked about Patagonia bit and
[14:44] Speaker 2: he he's buying leather in South America.
[14:46] Speaker 1: Barber wire is not as prevalent down there. And he
[14:49] Speaker 1: was talking about how it's hard to find large pieces
[14:52] Speaker 1: of perfect leather that you would use to do a
[14:55] Speaker 1: car seat, like unblemished leather for like premium auto, right,
[15:00] Speaker 1: and you were telling them about how that is that
[15:03] Speaker 1: that industry isn't decline.
[15:05] Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean social pressure is a is a big
[15:09] Speaker 5: piece of it. You know, social media drives a lot
[15:12] Speaker 5: of the younger generation. The terms vegan leather is out there.
[15:19] Speaker 5: What I think is it's it's kind of a weird
[15:21] Speaker 5: term to me, but basically it's it's making it out
[15:25] Speaker 5: of plastics and things of that nature. Because the concept
[15:30] Speaker 5: is is I don't want to kill cow for the
[15:34] Speaker 5: seats in my car, but that cow is not being
[15:38] Speaker 5: killed for the seats in your car. Cow's being killed
[15:41] Speaker 5: for the burger that you ate for lunch. Leather is
[15:44] Speaker 5: a byproduct of that whole industry. So it's what's a
[15:48] Speaker 5: shame is a lot of the leather that's produced from
[15:51] Speaker 5: the meat industry is going in landfills. It's being burned
[15:55] Speaker 5: in boilers to produce energy and steam and never making
[15:59] Speaker 5: it into a leather good, which is a shame. That's
[16:01] Speaker 5: not proper use of the animal. In opinion, it is.
[16:04] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's surprising that people want it out of that.
[16:08] Speaker 2: People want that material.
[16:09] Speaker 1: Out of out of an oil or a plastic product,
[16:15] Speaker 1: and then to put the really durable, renewable stuff into
[16:19] Speaker 1: the ground. That's right, Yeah, a right back to hot dogs.
[16:24] Speaker 2: So the cellul little steel you're dealing paper? Tell people,
[16:28] Speaker 2: tell what is that? When you say that? Did you
[16:30] Speaker 2: say cellulars or something different? Okay, explain that?
[16:33] Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean so, so I came from paper. I
[16:38] Speaker 5: live in Mobile, Alabama. We're in the southern yellow pine forest,
[16:43] Speaker 5: lob lolly pines, long leaf pines, all of those types
[16:46] Speaker 5: of trees, and that's where I hunt to. I'm a
[16:50] Speaker 5: huge I've got a buddy who owns two hundred and
[16:54] Speaker 5: forty acres. I'm his work labor, okay, and he owns land.
[16:59] Speaker 5: So we we we hunt together. I cut a pine
[17:02] Speaker 5: tree off the roof of the single white trailer last weekend.
[17:06] Speaker 1: You're like, you're like maintenance and habitat.
[17:08] Speaker 5: That's right, that's right. So yeah, we we do all
[17:11] Speaker 5: tractor lists. Anyway, we got a whole thing going on.
[17:15] Speaker 5: But it's all farmed pine trees.
[17:19] Speaker 1: Okay.
[17:20] Speaker 5: I mean my truck is sitting in the airport parking
[17:22] Speaker 5: lot right now, covered in yellow pollen right now from
[17:24] Speaker 5: the from the pine pollen. It's so down in that
[17:29] Speaker 5: area of the world used to be owned by a
[17:31] Speaker 5: lot of paper companies. A lot of the paper companies
[17:35] Speaker 5: got out of owning land. They buy trees. Now, there
[17:40] Speaker 5: are a few Warehouser Ran Air Forest Products. There's a
[17:43] Speaker 5: few out there that that still own the land.
[17:46] Speaker 2: I wasn't aware, like I know that those places used
[17:49] Speaker 2: to own these huge tracks one and what was the
[17:52] Speaker 2: outfit in western Montana.
[17:54] Speaker 1: There is Wirehouser, plum Creek and all that oh.
[17:58] Speaker 5: So plump plumb Creek, you.
[18:00] Speaker 1: Know what I'm talking about.
[18:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, like all that stuff above the Clark Fork when
[18:03] Speaker 2: you're going down nine to nine, you looking, Yeah, but it's.
[18:05] Speaker 5: Not the international paper. I think plum Creek bought international
[18:08] Speaker 5: papers and I think that's right, huh, But I don't
[18:12] Speaker 5: want somebody to get a new pair of boots on
[18:13] Speaker 5: my mistake.
[18:16] Speaker 1: Either way, I didn't know that that was a trend.
[18:19] Speaker 1: I guess.
[18:19] Speaker 2: I can think of all kinds of places and people
[18:21] Speaker 2: that have bought land that used to be timber company land,
[18:23] Speaker 2: but I didn't recognize it as part of the general
[18:26] Speaker 2: thing where they were like holding fewer asset land.
[18:28] Speaker 5: Assets, definitely holding fewer land assets. International Paper, the largest
[18:33] Speaker 5: packaging company in the world. I don't think owns any
[18:35] Speaker 5: land assets other than when the plants are, you know,
[18:39] Speaker 5: up in Canada, not so much like that. So the
[18:42] Speaker 5: Irving family, I don't know if you know about the
[18:44] Speaker 5: Irving family out in Canada, Robert and JD. Irving, they're
[18:48] Speaker 5: the most vertically integrated. They're like a poster story on
[18:53] Speaker 5: vertical integration. They on the land. They said, well, what
[18:56] Speaker 5: else can we do with this land? We can plant trees,
[18:58] Speaker 5: we can make paper, we can mine oil, we can well,
[19:04] Speaker 5: we're building all these plants, so we're going to start
[19:06] Speaker 5: a construction company. Like they just keep bolting on stuff
[19:09] Speaker 5: out of that company. And they're one of the biggest
[19:11] Speaker 5: landowners in Canada.
[19:15] Speaker 1: Yeah. When when we were working on.
[19:20] Speaker 2: Our hide Hunter's audio book about the history of the
[19:24] Speaker 2: Buffalo hide hunters, we towards the end of that we
[19:28] Speaker 2: get into the tannery the tanneries, like where are these
[19:32] Speaker 2: high where all these hides were going and what they
[19:34] Speaker 2: were making out of them?
[19:36] Speaker 1: And that was kind of a detail about those tanneries
[19:40] Speaker 1: is that the tanneries were basically places that owned enormous
[19:44] Speaker 1: tracks of hemlock, right, and that was like you centered
[19:50] Speaker 1: your tannery around that in these places owned I can't
[19:53] Speaker 1: remember what.
[19:54] Speaker 2: It was, absurd amounts of hemlock, not buying the trees
[19:57] Speaker 2: from other people.
[19:58] Speaker 1: They own the ground, you know.
[19:59] Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's that's where all the paper metals end
[20:01] Speaker 5: up popping up, is where's the wood basket. So there's
[20:04] Speaker 5: a lot of paper industry in the southeast US is
[20:06] Speaker 5: big because that's where the wood basket is, ok, and
[20:09] Speaker 5: it's sustainable forestry yep. And that sustainable forestry in the
[20:14] Speaker 5: Southeast US goes to make toilet paper, packaging and hot
[20:19] Speaker 5: dog casings.
[20:21] Speaker 1: And they're like they're moving, there's enough hot dog packet,
[20:24] Speaker 1: there's enough hot dog casings getting made out of celluloas
[20:27] Speaker 1: that you were aware of it when you were in
[20:29] Speaker 1: the wood business. But if you pie charged out, who's
[20:34] Speaker 1: using this the hot dog chunks gotta be like not
[20:37] Speaker 1: even you can't even see, you know.
[20:38] Speaker 2: When you look at a pie chart and know only
[20:40] Speaker 2: that you can see about one of the wedges, is
[20:41] Speaker 2: there's lines. Yeah, but you can't tell what's in the line.
[20:45] Speaker 3: I bet there's a very specific term for that, and
[20:48] Speaker 3: I'd love to know what it is.
[20:49] Speaker 1: Like the line is.
[20:50] Speaker 2: Bigger than the share, Like the line is thicker than
[20:54] Speaker 2: the share of hot dogs, is what I'm trying to say.
[20:57] Speaker 5: Correct, You're not wrong. So there's a specific type of
[21:03] Speaker 5: wood pulp that's used for making cellulis casings, and it's
[21:08] Speaker 5: it's what's called dissolving pulp, so you dissolve it and
[21:11] Speaker 5: regenerate it. High value chain dissolving pulp is used to
[21:17] Speaker 5: make hot dog casings. It's also used to make dude wipes.
[21:23] Speaker 5: It's also used to make diapers and feminine care products.
[21:29] Speaker 5: It's also used to make athletic sportswear, rayons and things
[21:34] Speaker 5: of that nature. Tin Cell is a brand name in
[21:36] Speaker 5: that space, really, So that's the That's one of the
[21:39] Speaker 5: main things that I want to do. Coming on here
[21:42] Speaker 5: is just to talk about we work in the woods,
[21:45] Speaker 5: cutting trees and hunting and doing all that kind of stuff.
[21:48] Speaker 5: What happens when the trees leave our property, and that's
[21:51] Speaker 5: what happens toilet paper, wet wipes, feminine care diapers, all
[21:58] Speaker 5: that kind of stuff comes out of those those forests.
[22:02] Speaker 2: Before we go deeper into that, and I want to
[22:04] Speaker 2: go deeper into that, can you explain Remember we started
[22:07] Speaker 2: up talking about roller dogs cheap gas station hot dogs.
[22:10] Speaker 2: Can you explain where a hot dog ends and begins?
[22:13] Speaker 5: Like?
[22:13] Speaker 1: What is not globally?
[22:16] Speaker 2: I don't care about dudes in Germany or something, but
[22:18] Speaker 2: like when I go into a gas station and I
[22:20] Speaker 2: see a roller dog.
[22:22] Speaker 1: Like what am I looking at right?
[22:24] Speaker 5: Good question?
[22:25] Speaker 2: Or another putting other way, just to include a high
[22:27] Speaker 2: more people with awareness. If you're in New York City
[22:31] Speaker 2: and you go to a corner and there's a dude
[22:33] Speaker 2: with a stainless steel he's got a cart and in
[22:36] Speaker 2: it is a stainless steel tub.
[22:37] Speaker 4: And you can feel the mists of the steam.
[22:39] Speaker 2: And you order a dog and he takes the lid
[22:41] Speaker 2: off and it's a steamy.
[22:43] Speaker 1: We call him water, not roller dogs.
[22:44] Speaker 2: We call those water dogs and he dicks the hot
[22:46] Speaker 2: dips a hot dog out of a bucket of hot
[22:48] Speaker 2: water that hot dog.
[22:50] Speaker 5: Yeah, what is it? Well, there are those hot dogs, Okay,
[22:56] Speaker 5: And then you go to the supermarket and it's a whole.
[23:00] Speaker 5: You can get a pack of hot dogs for two bucks.
[23:02] Speaker 5: You can get a pack of hot dogs for eight bucks. Yeah,
[23:07] Speaker 5: And so the difference in that range is all about
[23:11] Speaker 5: what is it made out of? Does it have fillers,
[23:13] Speaker 5: does it have you know, those types of things. So
[23:16] Speaker 5: in its core form, a hot dog is made of salt, ice, lean, protein,
[23:26] Speaker 5: and fat.
[23:28] Speaker 1: But what's it stuffed into?
[23:30] Speaker 5: And it's stuffed into a ninety percent of the hot
[23:35] Speaker 5: dogs in the US are stuffed into a cellular space casing.
[23:41] Speaker 5: So it's an inedible casing that that that is stuffed into.
[23:46] Speaker 5: This case actually invented that space.
[23:49] Speaker 1: So we see one there back.
[23:50] Speaker 5: In nineteen thirty we invented this guy. And that's that's
[23:57] Speaker 5: on a sheared stick.
[23:58] Speaker 2: If I started walking, if random had one, and I've
[24:00] Speaker 2: read one, and how far apart would he be when.
[24:02] Speaker 5: This was that one is two hundred feet? Wow? Yeah,
[24:09] Speaker 5: probably that's two hot dogs. That's that's probably one hundred
[24:13] Speaker 5: one hundred hot dogs in there, going, yeah, because there's
[24:17] Speaker 5: waste that you know that they twist and takes up
[24:20] Speaker 5: some space. Yeah, So we sell in links from eighty
[24:25] Speaker 5: four feet up to two hundred.
[24:26] Speaker 1: Foot and that's a wood product.
[24:29] Speaker 5: That's a cellulose product. That's product which one one source
[24:34] Speaker 5: of solos is wood. Another source of cellulose is cotton winters.
[24:39] Speaker 5: Who cotton winters? Do you know what a cotton winterest?
[24:43] Speaker 5: So it's used in uh money.
[24:46] Speaker 1: That's a product.
[24:47] Speaker 5: Of cotton, right, It's it's fiber that's inside the seed. Yes,
[24:52] Speaker 5: So you can make that same product out of cotton liners,
[24:56] Speaker 5: out of dissolving pulp from trees. Some some interest sting
[25:00] Speaker 5: research going into using bamboo as a salo source and
[25:03] Speaker 5: things of that nature. The two predominant sources are cotton
[25:08] Speaker 5: letters and woodbull He's.
[25:10] Speaker 1: Trying to get me going on eli winter and the cotton.
[25:13] Speaker 4: Don't take the baby, don't take the baby.
[25:16] Speaker 1: I'm not going to get into that.
[25:17] Speaker 5: I think it's Whitney. It's winter.
[25:23] Speaker 3: So when we talked, one of the things that I
[25:29] Speaker 3: was asking you about is when you buy a hot dog,
[25:33] Speaker 3: because the case, the casing that the hot dog is
[25:36] Speaker 3: being stuffed into is inedible.
[25:38] Speaker 5: Just there in the manufacturer right process.
[25:40] Speaker 3: And so you so, so what happens like when you
[25:43] Speaker 3: stuff the case and we.
[25:44] Speaker 4: Can get into emotions and all that and a little bit.
[25:46] Speaker 1: But like.
[25:48] Speaker 3: You just mentioned that this is an edible, So describe
[25:50] Speaker 3: how we go from an inedible casing to me eating
[25:53] Speaker 3: a hot dog.
[25:54] Speaker 2: But bahd, I got a call. I gotta crack to
[25:56] Speaker 2: you on something that's the flavor profile of a hot
[26:00] Speaker 2: dog is salt.
[26:02] Speaker 5: That salt is the most important ingredient in hot dog.
[26:07] Speaker 1: There's a little more in there.
[26:08] Speaker 5: When we get to emulsion science, we'll talk about the
[26:12] Speaker 5: importance of salt.
[26:13] Speaker 1: Okay, so pick up his deal.
[26:15] Speaker 5: Yeah, so hot dogs originally came from Germany called docks
[26:20] Speaker 5: and docks and sausages. That's why we turned that into
[26:23] Speaker 5: hot dogs in the US. Really, what was the word
[26:27] Speaker 5: docks and sausages?
[26:29] Speaker 1: See, I would think someone's making sausages out of those
[26:31] Speaker 1: little dogs. Yeah.
[26:35] Speaker 5: I think it was a shape, skinny long, and they
[26:40] Speaker 5: were made in natural casings. They would hang them in
[26:43] Speaker 5: the in the butcher stores. I'm sure in Phil's Christmas
[26:47] Speaker 5: play he had some sausages hanging hanging in the background.
[26:51] Speaker 1: I think that was a huge oversight on Phil's part.
[26:57] Speaker 5: I didn't harass the prop department to get some.
[27:01] Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't remember there being sausages. I don't.
[27:04] Speaker 5: I don't believe they were.
[27:05] Speaker 1: There was just a big fake goose.
[27:07] Speaker 5: You get no more small fake dickens. There's nothing more
[27:10] Speaker 5: dickens than hanging sausages.
[27:12] Speaker 2: I would expect next next year, around Christmas time, I
[27:14] Speaker 2: would expect a call from film.
[27:16] Speaker 1: That's all make some calls.
[27:18] Speaker 5: Uh. So they were made natural casing. So what what
[27:22] Speaker 5: our founder did is he said, I've seen this new
[27:25] Speaker 5: process in Europe called the Viscos process, and we can
[27:30] Speaker 5: create a permeable, low cost casing for manufacturing hot dogs.
[27:36] Speaker 5: And so that's what we did. And the key thing
[27:37] Speaker 5: to a hot dog casing is before that, hot dogs
[27:43] Speaker 5: were all different lengths, all different diameters. Because you were
[27:47] Speaker 5: you were using a natural product. They're all different diameters, right,
[27:51] Speaker 5: they don't have rules. When you can manufacture a casing product.
[27:56] Speaker 5: You get a very uniform hot dog. Got it, and
[27:59] Speaker 5: then you can package it. You don't have to hang
[28:01] Speaker 5: it on the in the store and cut links off.
[28:03] Speaker 5: You can package it in a one pound package. So
[28:07] Speaker 5: why this material was chosen is primary because of its
[28:13] Speaker 5: annular rigidity. So it doesn't it holds its shape, it
[28:17] Speaker 5: doesn't expand it does have some give so that they
[28:20] Speaker 5: can stuff it to a certain pressure.
[28:22] Speaker 1: Would you call that word again.
[28:23] Speaker 5: Annular strength? So it's strength are a round a circle.
[28:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, And the old days we would have called this
[28:29] Speaker 2: episode annular rigidity.
[28:33] Speaker 1: We switched to bad titles, all right, yeah.
[28:36] Speaker 5: Perfect, And it's permeable and that's the critical factor. It
[28:43] Speaker 5: has to be permeable to smoke because the majority of
[28:47] Speaker 5: the skinless hot dogs, so that's what we sell in
[28:49] Speaker 5: the US right now, they're all skinless hot dogs. What
[28:53] Speaker 5: happens is in the cooking process, smoke penetrates, it cross
[28:56] Speaker 5: links proteins at the surface of that hot dog and
[29:00] Speaker 5: forms its own skin out of cross link proteins. And
[29:02] Speaker 5: that's what gives you a snap. So there is no
[29:05] Speaker 5: skin on that hot dog that's managed through smoking and cooking.
[29:10] Speaker 1: Okay, I got a backs up from it again.
[29:15] Speaker 2: You go, well, let's do this. You're going to a
[29:19] Speaker 2: gas station because you're going to a Fourth of July
[29:21] Speaker 2: party and you're binding you buy the cheapest sack of
[29:24] Speaker 2: how many comes in a typical.
[29:27] Speaker 1: We got one freezer. You see that block of hot
[29:30] Speaker 1: dogs in the worst.
[29:32] Speaker 4: There's an open one.
[29:37] Speaker 1: Like like an Oscar. What I don't want to know, Yeah,
[29:40] Speaker 1: Oscar the worst, not the worst, the least expensive hot dog. No,
[29:44] Speaker 1: not the worst, meaning best, the least expensive hot dog
[29:47] Speaker 1: you can find.
[29:47] Speaker 5: It wouldn't be the one you just mentioned.
[29:49] Speaker 2: Okay, but the lead, the store brand, least expensive hot
[29:52] Speaker 2: dog you can find. There is no case on that
[29:57] Speaker 2: hot dog now, but that hot dog has been smoked.
[30:02] Speaker 5: Yes, some of them.
[30:05] Speaker 1: Because when you look at you know, when you look
[30:07] Speaker 1: at the end, you see the little casing dimples.
[30:11] Speaker 5: Yep, that's from that being twisted.
[30:12] Speaker 4: This is what This is what convinced me that this
[30:15] Speaker 4: is a podcast.
[30:17] Speaker 3: Like when you bite, when you bite into a hot
[30:19] Speaker 3: dog and there's like a little skin hanging off.
[30:23] Speaker 5: That's cross link protein on the surface of the hot dog.
[30:25] Speaker 4: But it's no different materially than the rest of the filling.
[30:28] Speaker 5: Correct would you call it cross link protein at the
[30:31] Speaker 5: surface of the hot dog? Just on the surface.
[30:35] Speaker 1: How do you get him out of his casing?
[30:37] Speaker 5: So these are treated with easy pel So it's got
[30:41] Speaker 5: plant based glesserin and things like that to make him
[30:46] Speaker 5: peel easy. So the first time I went into a plant,
[30:50] Speaker 5: it was the coolest thing I've ever seen. Hey, it
[30:54] Speaker 5: was unbelievably clean. The ingredients that went into that emulse
[30:58] Speaker 5: fire were not what I was expecting.
[31:01] Speaker 1: You were expecting some Upton Sinclair stuff I was.
[31:04] Speaker 5: I was, yeah, and it's not that at all. You know,
[31:08] Speaker 5: I watched these butcher guys and when they're squaring up
[31:11] Speaker 5: a rabbi, I'm just gonna square this up. That goes
[31:15] Speaker 5: in the trim pile, and that goes that's bought by
[31:17] Speaker 5: the hot dog manufacturers and things of that nature. So
[31:22] Speaker 5: so yeah, the casing forms the hot dog, it hangs
[31:28] Speaker 5: on a chain, it goes into the smokehouse. Huh, it's smoked.
[31:34] Speaker 5: It's cooked to its final temperature. They control humidity, temperature
[31:38] Speaker 5: all through that to get the characteristics they want. Then
[31:42] Speaker 5: they cook hot smoke. So yeah, they're cooking somewhere around
[31:47] Speaker 5: one hundred and one hundred and thirty degrees something like that.
[31:50] Speaker 1: So they're cooking that son of a bitch in the smoker.
[31:53] Speaker 5: You could take it out of the pack and eat
[31:55] Speaker 5: a hot dog. It's fully cooking.
[31:57] Speaker 1: Just walking in that big old room man to line
[32:00] Speaker 1: that up here.
[32:02] Speaker 5: The best hot dog I've ever had right out of
[32:04] Speaker 5: the oven, right out of the manufacturing.
[32:06] Speaker 1: I can.
[32:07] Speaker 2: I can tell, man, because like my buddy, they milk
[32:09] Speaker 2: cows and you drink them. You know, they put in
[32:12] Speaker 2: that super chiller and you drink that milk right out
[32:15] Speaker 2: of that chiller. I could picture getting a hot dog
[32:17] Speaker 2: right out of that hot superpower man.
[32:20] Speaker 5: Very good. And they killed the cook at the end
[32:22] Speaker 5: of cold water. Then it goes into packaging, I mean,
[32:26] Speaker 5: and and so in these plants, it comes in as
[32:29] Speaker 5: lean and fat, two primary ingredients that are in there. Yeah,
[32:34] Speaker 5: it goes through the process and it's coming out as
[32:36] Speaker 5: packages ready to go to the store.
[32:37] Speaker 2: How can there's still bent hot dogs in the because
[32:40] Speaker 2: if it's draped over something like you know, you make
[32:44] Speaker 2: a bra anything breakfast links, Like when I cook breakfast
[32:47] Speaker 2: links in my lamb cased breakfast links and a cast
[32:51] Speaker 2: iron skillet, I spoon them like you know, like you
[32:54] Speaker 2: and your lady laying in bed at night. Right, they're
[32:55] Speaker 2: all like because they all got a bow to them, right.
[32:58] Speaker 2: Put a hot dog in a hot dog pack is
[33:01] Speaker 2: straight as narrow.
[33:02] Speaker 5: So when they're cooked, Yes, they're hanging it over our chain,
[33:06] Speaker 5: but it's two hundred feet of those suckers twisted together.
[33:10] Speaker 5: Got it, And so they're hanging vertically.
[33:11] Speaker 1: And that weight is pulling them straight.
[33:13] Speaker 5: That's right, that's right, got it. And then so in packaging,
[33:17] Speaker 5: the casings stripped off. It's either a water jet or
[33:21] Speaker 5: or a blade or whatever. You'll see most a lot
[33:23] Speaker 5: of these cases have a black stripe on them.
[33:25] Speaker 1: What do you mean the water jet?
[33:27] Speaker 5: So it's thirty thousand psi water that you can't even
[33:33] Speaker 5: see it.
[33:34] Speaker 1: But how's it that obliterate the hot dog?
[33:36] Speaker 5: Because it's controlled. Most of these are are slit and peeled.
[33:42] Speaker 1: Okay, so you know you'll see I can visualize when
[33:45] Speaker 1: when you.
[33:45] Speaker 5: Cook a when you cook a hot dog, like get
[33:47] Speaker 5: a skillet, sometimes you'll see a perfect straight line open
[33:51] Speaker 5: up on it.
[33:52] Speaker 1: He's telling me about that line.
[33:53] Speaker 2: But I was lying and act like I knew about it.
[33:55] Speaker 2: But when you're talking about the line, I don't know
[33:58] Speaker 2: the line.
[33:58] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you'll see it. I always thought it was
[34:01] Speaker 3: like an indentation from it being vacuum sealed with other
[34:04] Speaker 3: hot dogs.
[34:05] Speaker 4: So this is what I'm talking This is great.
[34:07] Speaker 1: So you're telling me you're.
[34:08] Speaker 2: Cooking up a hot dog at home or on a
[34:10] Speaker 2: stick over the fourth July party, and you're seeing a
[34:14] Speaker 2: line sometimes sometimes, and that's from cutting that thing off.
[34:18] Speaker 5: And and it's cut and peeled. The photo eyes and
[34:23] Speaker 5: the plant will look for that blue or this black
[34:25] Speaker 5: stripe to make sure it was peeled during the manufacturing process.
[34:31] Speaker 5: And so the peeler is the coolest piece of Equiman
[34:33] Speaker 5: in there. It looks like a machine gun with hot
[34:36] Speaker 5: dogs coming out instead of ball. It's just, oh, if you.
[34:40] Speaker 1: Could like have a gun like that, Yeah, come into
[34:42] Speaker 1: a room. Everybody would be so happy in there.
[34:46] Speaker 5: It's very cool. And then it goes in they get
[34:50] Speaker 5: sorted and uh and packaged, yeah, vacuum sealed, and then
[34:54] Speaker 5: off to your grocery store.
[34:56] Speaker 1: You know, the the thing we were talking We were
[34:58] Speaker 1: joking earlier about Upton and Claire and how clean it
[35:01] Speaker 1: is in there. But like you know, like people say
[35:02] Speaker 1: of hot dogs, right, the old classic like lips and
[35:05] Speaker 1: a holes, Right, how much truth is there to that?
[35:10] Speaker 1: Like what's going into a hot dog? Give me the
[35:12] Speaker 1: worst case scenario? I mean, like like the worst case
[35:18] Speaker 1: I mean, come on, that's an incredible, incredible Yeah, you
[35:23] Speaker 1: like the pun. Oh you know that was a double whammie,
[35:26] Speaker 1: the worst case with the accident. Sorry, go ahead, give
[35:34] Speaker 1: me the like. And you know, I know you're in
[35:36] Speaker 1: the industry man, you got it, you're a company man.
[35:38] Speaker 1: But like, give me the.
[35:39] Speaker 2: Worst like uh, like, give me an example, Like would
[35:42] Speaker 2: people be pleasantly surprised if they saw what's in their
[35:46] Speaker 2: hot dogs?
[35:46] Speaker 1: Or would they be like, oh, it's worse than I imagined.
[35:49] Speaker 5: No, that'd be pleasantly surprised. I mean, so the lean
[35:52] Speaker 5: the lien is all from butcher trim. You know, if
[35:57] Speaker 5: they're wanting to get the cost pointing down mm hmm
[36:02] Speaker 5: for that two dollars pack of hot dogs, there'll be
[36:05] Speaker 5: different protein sources. So they may put away protein or
[36:10] Speaker 5: some some other oh is that right, Yeah, some other
[36:13] Speaker 5: protein source to get to get the cost profile down.
[36:16] Speaker 5: And and you know, and I had no idea.
[36:21] Speaker 2: People will say stuff you drink when you drink like
[36:23] Speaker 2: a or not the same. But like, if you're drinking
[36:25] Speaker 2: like a protein replacement or like a replacement meal or
[36:29] Speaker 2: a protein powder.
[36:30] Speaker 5: Milk, protein plant protein.
[36:31] Speaker 1: Soy pro, you can jam that and do a hot dog.
[36:34] Speaker 5: You could in order to get a protein filler to
[36:38] Speaker 5: get the price point down. And then and the key
[36:39] Speaker 5: point is, you know, originally I said the consumer votes
[36:45] Speaker 5: like they get the ultimate vote with their purchase. And
[36:48] Speaker 5: so the consumer knows how much money I have my
[36:50] Speaker 5: wallet and what's the thing look like on the shelf,
[36:55] Speaker 5: and so if they have a certain amount of money
[36:56] Speaker 5: in their wallet, they're gonna want a lower price point.
[36:58] Speaker 5: And so you've you still have to make a profit, right,
[37:01] Speaker 5: So there are ways to do that, protein with protein additions. Yeah,
[37:10] Speaker 5: but I haven't seen lips and a holes on on
[37:13] Speaker 5: any any shelf.
[37:17] Speaker 1: Let me, let's do this. I believe you like answer
[37:22] Speaker 1: this one totally honestly if you had, would you be
[37:26] Speaker 1: able to tell me?
[37:28] Speaker 4: Yeah, I believe them.
[37:35] Speaker 1: It doesn't bother me.
[37:36] Speaker 5: It doesn't bother me either, because if I.
[37:38] Speaker 2: Went to a buddy's house and he made something and
[37:40] Speaker 2: he's like, you'll never guess what I made that out of,
[37:42] Speaker 2: you know, I'd be like, I'll ry it.
[37:45] Speaker 5: Well, I mean, so there's a market for that stuff. Right.
[37:47] Speaker 5: If I'm in Alabama and I'm going and we don't
[37:50] Speaker 5: have the Canadian versus Michigan kind of competition you're talking about,
[37:55] Speaker 5: if I roll into an Alabama gas station.
[37:57] Speaker 1: Not even on the border, not on the board.
[38:00] Speaker 5: I'm rolling through there, I'm gonna see the hot dog rollers,
[38:06] Speaker 5: but right next to it, I'm gonna see a jar
[38:09] Speaker 5: pickle picks feet, I'm gonna see a jar pickle pick snouts.
[38:11] Speaker 5: I'm gonna like that. There's a market for that stuff in.
[38:15] Speaker 2: It, And you think those snouts and those feet are
[38:20] Speaker 2: not likely to be in those dogs.
[38:23] Speaker 4: I think he knows that.
[38:26] Speaker 5: Of the places I've been to, I haven't seen it.
[38:29] Speaker 1: And if you did, you'd tell me.
[38:30] Speaker 5: If I did, I tell you so I've been to
[38:35] Speaker 5: you know, I've been to a lot of them.
[38:39] Speaker 1: Ran, I know you're bursting with questions. I got in
[38:41] Speaker 1: I one walk me through. It seems like they call
[38:46] Speaker 1: out a beef hot dog, like it seems like if
[38:49] Speaker 1: it's a beef hot dog, they want to tell you
[38:51] Speaker 1: that it's a beef hot dog, right, And so they're
[38:55] Speaker 1: sort of trying. They're like they're they're providing like it's
[38:58] Speaker 1: juxtaposed to.
[39:00] Speaker 5: What, Yeah, that so hot dogs are made out of beef,
[39:05] Speaker 5: pork or chicken or combinations of the above.
[39:09] Speaker 1: I didn't know there was a chicken hot dog. Yeah, really,
[39:13] Speaker 1: But the guys making those aren't like chicken hot dogs,
[39:16] Speaker 1: the chicken and dark like it seems like they're proud.
[39:21] Speaker 4: Of a beef. Oh yeah, all beef. I mean that's
[39:24] Speaker 4: like a branding thing. I think it's like.
[39:27] Speaker 5: That it elicits I think incorrectly your quality or whatever.
[39:33] Speaker 1: I mean.
[39:33] Speaker 5: They are also religious pieces to it, where you've got
[39:38] Speaker 5: to understand kosher.
[39:39] Speaker 1: That's good, yeah, cosh root or what. So it's a
[39:43] Speaker 1: whole is the whole wal Yeah, okay, all right.
[39:47] Speaker 2: So you'd be like if you were going into an
[39:50] Speaker 2: area where you had you had Muslims, yeah, yeah, Jews,
[39:55] Speaker 2: you might see that there's a higher prevalence of just
[39:58] Speaker 2: like labeled beef with.
[40:01] Speaker 5: And it would have the stamp on there. So that's
[40:02] Speaker 5: what they're all looking for, is the triangle k or
[40:04] Speaker 5: the halal or.
[40:05] Speaker 1: What God is God? So that that drives that.
[40:08] Speaker 5: But it does it.
[40:09] Speaker 1: Doesn't mean that if it doesn't say it, like if
[40:12] Speaker 1: they're not touting what it is, it's likely because it's what.
[40:19] Speaker 5: You know, it's a standard pork hot dog is what
[40:20] Speaker 5: I would expect. I mean, pork is pork is the
[40:23] Speaker 5: easiest uh protein source to make a make a hot dog.
[40:29] Speaker 5: Emulsion out of very forgiving, very easy to make. So
[40:34] Speaker 5: in the industry that there's a saying that says pork
[40:40] Speaker 5: makes sausage and chicken makes money. That'd be another that'd
[40:46] Speaker 5: be a good name for the podcast Problems for Deer
[40:49] Speaker 5: makes for a big weekend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah.
[40:52] Speaker 5: So chicken has a really high water holding capacity, so
[40:56] Speaker 5: you can you can put more water on the protein
[40:58] Speaker 5: and sell more water.
[41:00] Speaker 3: So we've thrown around the word emulsion, and I pretend
[41:04] Speaker 3: like I know what we're talking about, but scientifically speaking,
[41:07] Speaker 3: what are we like? Yeah, I know, I sort of
[41:10] Speaker 3: know when I see it, But what's going on there?
[41:12] Speaker 3: And then how does different proteins? How do the different
[41:16] Speaker 3: proteins factor into that? Yea, because then you're talking about
[41:18] Speaker 3: water content.
[41:19] Speaker 5: So people hear the word emulsion and they think, oh,
[41:24] Speaker 5: this is lab grown food. You know, it has this
[41:28] Speaker 5: scientific key feel to it. You know, milk's and emulsion.
[41:34] Speaker 5: There's all kinds of natural emulsions out there.
[41:37] Speaker 1: How is milk and emulsion?
[41:38] Speaker 5: What an emulsion is is a fat particle that's stabilized
[41:44] Speaker 5: with a mulse fire around it. So there are stabilized
[41:48] Speaker 5: fats inside of milk.
[41:50] Speaker 1: That's an emulsion means.
[41:53] Speaker 5: You know, so if I make salad dressing, you know,
[41:55] Speaker 5: an emulsion is I'm taking two things that won't mix.
[41:59] Speaker 5: I'm mixing them and stabilizing it. So salad dressing, oil
[42:03] Speaker 5: and water, oil and vinegar, whatever it is, if I
[42:05] Speaker 5: shake that up in thirty minutes, it's gonna be separated again.
[42:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
[42:11] Speaker 5: An emulsion puts an emulsifier around those oil particles to
[42:16] Speaker 5: stabilize it.
[42:17] Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's we make our own dressing and we
[42:22] Speaker 1: buy addressing like most American households.
[42:24] Speaker 2: So when we make it, I have a little shaker,
[42:27] Speaker 2: you can, right, yeah, shake it up. You're right, it's
[42:30] Speaker 2: like perfect.
[42:31] Speaker 1: But then you you know, when you go get it
[42:33] Speaker 1: the next time, it's separated out right.
[42:35] Speaker 2: But then when you buy whatever, who's the guy that
[42:39] Speaker 2: the actor Paul? Yeah, you buy some Paul Newman, it
[42:45] Speaker 2: doesn't separate. So what would I need to be doing
[42:48] Speaker 2: at home to make mine like his?
[42:50] Speaker 5: That'll be similar to what we're going to talk about.
[42:52] Speaker 5: For a hot dog and massins, you got to pull
[42:53] Speaker 5: it in a mulsifier around that oil particle to keep
[42:57] Speaker 5: those oil particles from getting together in a glomerate. Okay,
[43:01] Speaker 5: that's that's what happens. So I emulsions are again, they're natural.
[43:06] Speaker 5: I've I've worked with emotion emulsions my entire career because
[43:10] Speaker 5: I used to be in the chemical space. So we
[43:12] Speaker 5: made lots of defoemers and things of that nature that
[43:15] Speaker 5: are stable emulsions, and that's the key. And in a
[43:19] Speaker 5: hot dog, the oil particle is a fat, and the
[43:26] Speaker 5: emulsifier that we're gonna protect that fat from getting getting
[43:30] Speaker 5: together is protein.
[43:33] Speaker 1: Huh. So is it salad dressing.
[43:36] Speaker 5: And salad dressing?
[43:37] Speaker 1: You know?
[43:37] Speaker 5: It may be. Uh, there are all kinds of emulsions,
[43:41] Speaker 5: starches and things like that. Good that can they can
[43:44] Speaker 5: stabilize them.
[43:45] Speaker 1: But you could make one from the things you could
[43:47] Speaker 1: buy at a grocery store.
[43:48] Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the key is that you've got
[43:52] Speaker 5: to put tons of energy into it, So you gotta
[43:54] Speaker 5: shake the Jesus out of that thing. And when they
[43:58] Speaker 5: make it, most likely obviously they're not shaking individual jars
[44:02] Speaker 5: at the Paul New Manufactory assoom.
[44:05] Speaker 2: So what yeah, three guys, Yeah, they got like an
[44:09] Speaker 2: industrial age.
[44:10] Speaker 5: They've got a full on a mult fire pump.
[44:12] Speaker 3: I was imagining guys on lunch break all going out
[44:15] Speaker 3: for a smoke in their forms are.
[44:16] Speaker 5: Just that's right. So there there's back pressure on that pump.
[44:22] Speaker 5: They're gonna cycle it through that pump, you know, probably
[44:24] Speaker 5: six seven, eight, nine times, get the particle size, the
[44:27] Speaker 5: oil down, stabilize it, you know, the same deal and
[44:30] Speaker 5: a hot dog, same process.
[44:34] Speaker 1: So what do you grind at?
[44:35] Speaker 2: Walk me through making a dog like you got your
[44:37] Speaker 2: your lean meat yep, and you're grinding it to to.
[44:42] Speaker 1: Like a liquid?
[44:44] Speaker 5: Not really? Well, I mean I'm gonna grind it a
[44:47] Speaker 5: help a lot more than I'm gonna grind ground beef.
[44:49] Speaker 5: I'm gonna ground a paste, let's say, not a liquid.
[44:52] Speaker 5: So I'm gonna grind it to probably a three to
[44:56] Speaker 5: five millimeter plate something like that. Fine grind. But step
[45:04] Speaker 5: one is protein extraction. So I have to extract the
[45:09] Speaker 5: proteins out of that meat.
[45:11] Speaker 1: Well, it is protein. What's left when you get the protein.
[45:15] Speaker 5: So, but I've got to extract the individual pieces of protein.
[45:20] Speaker 5: So protein is a polymer, right, It's a you know,
[45:24] Speaker 5: it's a bunch of amino acids that are stacked out
[45:27] Speaker 5: into a polymer chain. And so I need to unwind
[45:31] Speaker 5: and extract those proteins so that it's ready to make
[45:33] Speaker 5: an emulsion because it's yeah, it's a protein, but it's
[45:37] Speaker 5: in the form of a muscle. So I've got to
[45:40] Speaker 5: get it out of that form of a muscle, and
[45:44] Speaker 5: I do that with salt. So that's that's why I
[45:48] Speaker 5: argued that salt was the most important ingredient. There's salt flavor,
[45:52] Speaker 5: salt drives protein extraction. So you know, again key components salt, lean, protein, fat,
[46:04] Speaker 5: and water in the form of ice are traditionally it
[46:09] Speaker 5: Because what I want to do is extract that protein,
[46:13] Speaker 5: but I have to be very careful that I don't
[46:15] Speaker 5: start to denature it because I wanted to denature in
[46:18] Speaker 5: the oven. That's when I wanted to form into a
[46:20] Speaker 5: gel and cook and solidify and have that texture that
[46:23] Speaker 5: you want. You can't have it denature in the processing spot.
[46:28] Speaker 5: So I'm going to add ice to keep the temperature down.
[46:31] Speaker 1: Got got it? I see.
[46:33] Speaker 5: So there's there's a what is it? I got to
[46:37] Speaker 5: look at my notes. So there's a differential scanning calorimetry, colorimetry, calorimetry.
[46:44] Speaker 5: That's a tough say that word five times DS. That's
[46:47] Speaker 5: what I know it's it's a graph, if you will,
[46:53] Speaker 5: of the denaturing process of a protein. So pork has
[46:57] Speaker 5: this really wide denaturing curve kind of a low peak
[47:01] Speaker 5: and comes off the other end really forgiving venison extremely
[47:10] Speaker 5: narrow and extremely high peak. So what that means is
[47:13] Speaker 5: if I let temperature get away from me and in
[47:15] Speaker 5: the manufacturing process, it's going to be nature quick really.
[47:21] Speaker 1: So that's why where's beef sit on that little scale.
[47:25] Speaker 5: Harder than pork. So pork is the easiest. Beef is
[47:30] Speaker 5: harder both because of the DC curve and then also
[47:36] Speaker 5: just because the extract ability of the proteins.
[47:38] Speaker 3: For for like someone just who knows these meats from
[47:42] Speaker 3: cooking in a kitchen. Is that why like does that
[47:46] Speaker 3: curve have to do with people saying like, don't over
[47:49] Speaker 3: cook your venison. It's really easy to overcook your venison.
[47:51] Speaker 3: Like that's is there is there, there's a piece of
[47:54] Speaker 3: a relationship there.
[47:55] Speaker 5: And you guys, we all know right it's it's there's
[47:59] Speaker 5: very little or muscular lipids are fat. It's a highly
[48:03] Speaker 5: active muscle that proteins are packed really tight. So that's
[48:07] Speaker 5: what makes them hard to extract.
[48:08] Speaker 4: Mm hm.
[48:11] Speaker 5: So you know over cooking venison has more to do
[48:14] Speaker 5: with you just lose any little bit of fat that
[48:18] Speaker 5: was in there, and you're gonna make it really tough too.
[48:22] Speaker 2: So do you I want to continue out with you multifying,
[48:25] Speaker 2: but just on this subject, would you be able to
[48:30] Speaker 2: make would you be able to take deer.
[48:32] Speaker 1: Meat wild deer meat?
[48:37] Speaker 2: Would you be able to take deer meat and make
[48:39] Speaker 2: a dog that if I came in the gas station
[48:41] Speaker 2: and grabbed it off the roller, I would just think
[48:43] Speaker 2: I was having a roller dog?
[48:45] Speaker 1: Or would I be like something's different.
[48:48] Speaker 5: You know, it's gonna have venison flavor. Obviously it's gonna
[48:51] Speaker 5: have a wild flavor. But outside of that, the texture,
[48:54] Speaker 5: I think that I think we could get the texture
[48:57] Speaker 5: and all of that stuff right. It'd be really.
[49:01] Speaker 3: Hard, really. Yeah, there's there's science to this.
[49:05] Speaker 5: This that the d s C is the biggest driver.
[49:08] Speaker 5: There's also p h of the muscle itself. So Karen
[49:14] Speaker 5: mentioned that I should listen to the The Red Cutter episode,
[49:18] Speaker 5: and did.
[49:20] Speaker 1: You ever hear that guy before?
[49:21] Speaker 5: No, you did not talk about we would. Yeah, I mean,
[49:25] Speaker 5: I it's intimidating. I feel like I'm the least intellectual
[49:30] Speaker 5: of all the of all the guests you've had, but.
[49:32] Speaker 1: No you no, okay, don't worry about that.
[49:38] Speaker 5: All right. Yeah, it was interesting. So everything he was
[49:43] Speaker 5: focusing on was about the tooth and chew of the
[49:50] Speaker 5: meat making hot dogs. It's it's different. It's all about
[49:55] Speaker 5: protein extraction. So he was talking about the DFD meat
[50:03] Speaker 5: you know you got. You called it red cutter. He
[50:05] Speaker 5: called it dark cutter. That stuff, it's really easy to
[50:11] Speaker 5: extract proteins from it. So he may not like it,
[50:14] Speaker 5: but I kind of do because it's a it's a
[50:16] Speaker 5: it's easy to extract protein from a dark cutter. That
[50:22] Speaker 5: being said, the flavor is different and all that kind
[50:25] Speaker 5: of stuff. So and I'm just talking pure protein extraction.
[50:31] Speaker 5: But you talk in that episode, you talk a little
[50:33] Speaker 5: about pre and post rigor. It's easier to extract proteins
[50:40] Speaker 5: to make a hot dog in pre rigor meat then
[50:44] Speaker 5: it would be in a post rigor protein. You would
[50:48] Speaker 5: never do that. And it has most of what it
[50:52] Speaker 5: has to do with pH. So as a as a
[50:54] Speaker 5: muscle riggers, the pH is going to drop. If that
[51:00] Speaker 5: animal was in stress when it was killed, that's gonna
[51:03] Speaker 5: have lactic acid building up. That's gonna make the pH
[51:06] Speaker 5: drop and I can extract proteins better at a higher pH.
[51:11] Speaker 5: So there are things you can chemically do, add phosphates,
[51:14] Speaker 5: add some other stuff to get the proteins to extract.
[51:17] Speaker 5: But that's all the stuff that you got against you.
[51:20] Speaker 5: When you're trying to make a venison hot dog, it's
[51:22] Speaker 5: gonna be low pH. It's got that real narrow band
[51:25] Speaker 5: of the DSc curve film it can be done.
[51:30] Speaker 1: Deer meat has a different pH.
[51:34] Speaker 5: A wild killed deer would have a different pH. I think, so,
[51:40] Speaker 5: I mean, unless, I mean, I think if I was
[51:45] Speaker 5: picking the perfect animal, I would pick a young dough.
[51:51] Speaker 5: I would shoot it in the head, and I would
[51:55] Speaker 5: contemplate field dressing and making hot dogs out of it.
[51:58] Speaker 1: That day right then in there, just get right to it.
[52:04] Speaker 5: But but I mean, it's I mean, that's a lot
[52:05] Speaker 5: of hot talks.
[52:10] Speaker 1: You know, you just mentioned Rigorman. This has nothing to
[52:14] Speaker 1: do what we're talking about.
[52:15] Speaker 2: But I saw a new buddy mine yesterday and he
[52:19] Speaker 2: was telling me that he he's a fireman, and he's
[52:27] Speaker 2: telling me, weird, it's kind of hot, weird how this
[52:29] Speaker 2: whole thing came up. But he's telling me they went
[52:32] Speaker 2: to a nursing home one time and there was a
[52:37] Speaker 2: guy and they had called about a guy that he
[52:40] Speaker 2: was on a pacemaker and on some kind of other
[52:43] Speaker 2: respirator or something. And they're like they're called about it
[52:48] Speaker 2: that they couldn't tell what was going on with them.
[52:51] Speaker 1: But he had a pulse hmm.
[52:56] Speaker 2: But when he went he grabbed his arm went lifted up,
[52:58] Speaker 2: and the guy was already in rigor with a pulse.
[53:02] Speaker 2: Because because if I can't remember what he's explains people
[53:04] Speaker 2: like some they had him on some sort of life
[53:06] Speaker 2: support deal or something that was still registering mm hmm.
[53:12] Speaker 2: And he's like, no, he's not with us anymore. Crazy
[53:17] Speaker 2: That well, that is well, I wish I remember the
[53:19] Speaker 2: story better.
[53:21] Speaker 1: Back to hot but back to hot dogs.
[53:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wish I remember what he told me better.
[53:30] Speaker 2: I was driving, my kid was trying to get a
[53:31] Speaker 2: hold of me.
[53:32] Speaker 3: Where does the where does the water content come into
[53:36] Speaker 3: play of these different meats as far as like their
[53:40] Speaker 3: ability to emulsify.
[53:43] Speaker 5: Uh, I'd say it's less about water holding capacity. I
[53:46] Speaker 5: mean they've all got I'll have to look at look
[53:51] Speaker 5: it up, but you know, sixty percent water or something
[53:55] Speaker 5: something in that muscle chicken can hold more water right.
[54:00] Speaker 5: Oftentimes a manufacturer likes that because they can sell more
[54:04] Speaker 5: water and both in a chicken breast or or in
[54:07] Speaker 5: a chicken hot dog. The more water that you put
[54:12] Speaker 5: into the emulsion, you're stuffing a watery substance into cellul
[54:17] Speaker 5: is casing, and that gets difficult to handle. You know.
[54:21] Speaker 5: The more viscous the emulsion is. When you when you
[54:25] Speaker 5: stuff it through the stuffing horn, I think the casing
[54:29] Speaker 5: will take it. It'll twist more, you'll get good link
[54:32] Speaker 5: sizes and all that good stuff. Yeah, so I would
[54:40] Speaker 5: say that water holding and water content is less of
[54:43] Speaker 5: a concern. It's more about you. Remember what I said.
[54:46] Speaker 5: When you're making an emulsion, it's an oil particle surrounded
[54:48] Speaker 5: by protein. You want you gotta know how much fats
[54:53] Speaker 5: coming in with your trim, So how much fats already
[54:56] Speaker 5: in your lean? How much fat am I adding that
[55:00] Speaker 5: thirty percent fat that's in a hot dog, And that
[55:05] Speaker 5: ratio needs to be right because you got too little protein.
[55:09] Speaker 5: You're not going to completely cover that oild particle. You
[55:12] Speaker 5: got too much protein and there's extra protein kind of
[55:15] Speaker 5: swimming around.
[55:16] Speaker 4: And yeah, this is what I remember from describing the.
[55:19] Speaker 5: Challenges important process I mean, yeah, the the key steps
[55:25] Speaker 5: and that I don't want to. I've seen some of
[55:29] Speaker 5: the homemade hot dog recipes and stuff like that on there,
[55:32] Speaker 5: and I think what's missing out there is that it's
[55:38] Speaker 5: two distinct processes. Step one is I want to extract
[55:41] Speaker 5: my proteins. So in my kitchen, I would do that
[55:46] Speaker 5: in a different piece of equipment. I'm not going to
[55:48] Speaker 5: do that in a food processor because that's going to
[55:50] Speaker 5: heat it up and I'm going to start denaturing and
[55:54] Speaker 5: that'll be a problem.
[55:55] Speaker 1: Okay, what are you gonna do it in?
[55:56] Speaker 5: I'd actually probably do it in a stand mixer with
[55:59] Speaker 5: a paddle mm a two to three you know, plate grind,
[56:05] Speaker 5: add my salt, add probably half my ice to keep
[56:08] Speaker 5: the temperature down, and slowly extract the proteins and you'll
[56:13] Speaker 5: know you're done when it stops being grainy and start
[56:17] Speaker 5: it'll be extremely sticky mm hmm, so it'll stick to
[56:21] Speaker 5: your hand. You can pull individual fibers, like if you
[56:24] Speaker 5: pull it out like this, you'll see fibers. Kind of
[56:26] Speaker 5: break man.
[56:26] Speaker 1: I could picture what you're talking about, having made some
[56:29] Speaker 1: dogs in my day.
[56:30] Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's what you're looking for. You're good to go.
[56:34] Speaker 5: Your proteins are extracted.
[56:36] Speaker 1: So you know what's done by that, you know. So
[56:39] Speaker 1: it's a look thing, a looking.
[56:41] Speaker 5: Look and feel thing. And I mean in the in
[56:43] Speaker 5: the industrial world, it's a it's a recipe, like they know,
[56:47] Speaker 5: I'm gonna put this much ice in at this time.
[56:50] Speaker 5: They've got specialized equipment that's both there. They're chopper they
[56:54] Speaker 5: call it. That's where you do the protein extraction and
[56:58] Speaker 5: chopper and a multifier. It's all in the kind of
[57:00] Speaker 5: the same piece of equipment. And then they're gonna ship
[57:03] Speaker 5: that to the stuffing plant to stuff.
[57:07] Speaker 1: When you when you go to put that, when you
[57:08] Speaker 1: get that hot dog already and he's ready to go
[57:11] Speaker 1: in one of these here, would you be able to
[57:13] Speaker 1: pack it into a snowball? Or is it? Or is
[57:15] Speaker 1: it a little runnier than that.
[57:16] Speaker 5: It's a little runnier than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean,
[57:24] Speaker 5: but it's pasty. It's it, you know it Once you
[57:28] Speaker 5: add the fat, it gets that white kind of creamy appearance.
[57:32] Speaker 4: Right.
[57:34] Speaker 5: My, I don't know when you want to get into it,
[57:37] Speaker 5: but kind of my concept for a venison hot dog
[57:42] Speaker 5: is uh, I think it's Hey, I'm using in my
[57:48] Speaker 5: concept I was towing random before this. I'm using bear
[57:51] Speaker 5: fat and the key thing is to understand what is
[57:59] Speaker 5: that protein to fat content and and when I'm emulsifying
[58:06] Speaker 5: it in the kitchen. Dude, I'm not running it through
[58:08] Speaker 5: that food processor for more than two minutes. Kay, because
[58:14] Speaker 5: of the temperature, because if I go too hot at
[58:16] Speaker 5: the temperature's gonna get away from me.
[58:18] Speaker 2: I got a question on the heat thing. I'm trying
[58:21] Speaker 2: if this is related or not. You ever you ever
[58:23] Speaker 2: smoked fish, smoke salmon, try out whatever you ever? Notice
[58:27] Speaker 2: it really doesn't matter what kind of fish you're smoking.
[58:31] Speaker 2: If you get it, if you get it too hot
[58:34] Speaker 2: too fast during the smoking process, it puts off that
[58:37] Speaker 2: white mm hmm.
[58:39] Speaker 1: I don't know, foamy goo. You're melting fat and it's like,
[58:43] Speaker 1: oh you you you overdid it, like too much heat
[58:47] Speaker 1: too quick, right that that's what that is is melted fat. Okay?
[58:51] Speaker 2: Is that the same as what you're talking about, So
[58:53] Speaker 2: it's that's a different problem problem.
[58:56] Speaker 5: This has more to do with taking off the dnateaturing
[59:00] Speaker 5: process to form that protein gel that is a hot
[59:03] Speaker 5: dog before it's in the oven. I needed to happen
[59:07] Speaker 5: in the oven run the smoker god.
[59:12] Speaker 3: So the the problem then if you if you get
[59:17] Speaker 3: that heat going there, it's is it that it's not
[59:20] Speaker 3: going to bind to the fat.
[59:22] Speaker 1: Like like you said, there's two separate steps.
[59:24] Speaker 3: There's one denaturing the protein and then distracting the protein, sorry,
[59:28] Speaker 3: extracting the protein, and you do want to avoid denaturing it.
[59:31] Speaker 3: And then two is the actual emulsifying process.
[59:36] Speaker 5: Yeah. So I mean think of it as as that
[59:39] Speaker 5: protein is gonna gel and firm up before you've made
[59:42] Speaker 5: it into emulsion. So it's not individual pieces of protein
[59:47] Speaker 5: to wrap around that fat. It's not available anymore because
[59:50] Speaker 5: it's gelled up and solidified if you will. Yeah, And
[59:56] Speaker 5: that's the multifying process is four eyes, lots of time
[1:00:04] Speaker 5: to pre emulsified fat. So I want to beat up
[1:00:07] Speaker 5: the fat so I get the size of fat particle
[1:00:10] Speaker 5: that I want. I want one to ten microns or
[1:00:14] Speaker 5: something like that, and then I'm gonna wrap that protein
[1:00:17] Speaker 5: emulsion around it, or that protein sorry, extracted protein around
[1:00:21] Speaker 5: it to make an emulsion.
[1:00:23] Speaker 3: And that is from the food processor. That's where you're
[1:00:26] Speaker 3: applying the energy to it.
[1:00:28] Speaker 5: Serious serious energy.
[1:00:30] Speaker 2: When someone gets blowney, that's multified. Brat is not a
[1:00:35] Speaker 2: multified when you go and get lunch meat at a
[1:00:39] Speaker 2: at a deli counter Albertson's Safe Way or whatever, and
[1:00:43] Speaker 2: you get like a like a turkey lunch meat. Some
[1:00:46] Speaker 2: of that's emulsified, but some of it's just turkey breast. Yeah,
[1:00:53] Speaker 2: So like where else do people see a multifications?
[1:00:56] Speaker 5: Hot dogs, blowney, mortidella, all those types of products go
[1:01:04] Speaker 5: through in a multification step. I'd say deli meats are
[1:01:08] Speaker 5: approaching it, but not necessarily. They're not necessarily all the
[1:01:12] Speaker 5: way there. So to make a deli meat you wanna,
[1:01:18] Speaker 5: you're gonna take pieces of you know, whatever meat you're
[1:01:21] Speaker 5: wanting to make, we'll say turkey. I want to break
[1:01:25] Speaker 5: down the surface of each one of those individual chunks
[1:01:29] Speaker 5: using enzymes, salt things. So it's kind of like in
[1:01:35] Speaker 5: a multifying step, but you're not a multifying it. Once
[1:01:39] Speaker 5: you get the edges of that surface surface sticky, you're
[1:01:43] Speaker 5: gonna press it and make and and it's gonna basically
[1:01:48] Speaker 5: glue it all together. So it makes you know, you
[1:01:52] Speaker 5: either do that in a round casing, which those over
[1:01:55] Speaker 5: there that's blowny casing the red ones.
[1:02:00] Speaker 1: How long is this? If me and Randall started walking
[1:02:02] Speaker 1: apart a lot longer.
[1:02:04] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a lot of blooney.
[1:02:06] Speaker 5: It's a lot of boney. That's kind of a standard
[1:02:10] Speaker 5: you know round deli meat casing. It's made out of plastic.
[1:02:15] Speaker 5: It's got you know, some blooney's that plastic stays on.
[1:02:20] Speaker 5: Some of it. They they leave it on for the
[1:02:22] Speaker 5: consumer to peel off. So you got something to run
[1:02:25] Speaker 5: in between your teeth, clean them up, and then and
[1:02:28] Speaker 5: then some of them peel them off in the manufacturing process.
[1:02:31] Speaker 5: But I'd say.
[1:02:32] Speaker 1: Keep asking questions. I got.
[1:02:33] Speaker 2: I got to see if I can get this. This relates.
[1:02:36] Speaker 2: See if I get my wife to send me something. Yeah,
[1:02:38] Speaker 2: I'm gonna show you something.
[1:02:40] Speaker 5: It So, you know, a sandwich meat, a deli meat
[1:02:44] Speaker 5: is not quite an emulsion. It's more of individually separated
[1:02:50] Speaker 5: meat that's pressed and formed, and so we either leave
[1:02:53] Speaker 5: it round and what they call it chubb. So you know,
[1:02:57] Speaker 5: a deli chubb would just be a perfectly round clipped
[1:03:00] Speaker 5: with like hog rings basically on.
[1:03:02] Speaker 4: Is that a technical term?
[1:03:04] Speaker 5: Yep.
[1:03:04] Speaker 3: I always just call them loafs who described as loaf,
[1:03:08] Speaker 3: but chub's much better.
[1:03:10] Speaker 5: Chub. You can you can put them in a mold
[1:03:13] Speaker 5: to make them square and you're seeing the square hams.
[1:03:16] Speaker 3: Yeah, when you buy a little pack, when you when
[1:03:19] Speaker 3: you buy a little pack for to take home to
[1:03:22] Speaker 3: make sandwiches.
[1:03:23] Speaker 5: Yeah, it's square.
[1:03:24] Speaker 1: It's a very square piece of ham.
[1:03:25] Speaker 5: So that starts off in a round form, and it's
[1:03:27] Speaker 5: putting a mold when it's broken, when it's when it's
[1:03:30] Speaker 5: uh cooked. And then some hams. Back in the nineties
[1:03:35] Speaker 5: there were more of us. There's the D shaped ham.
[1:03:38] Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it's flat on one side and kind of
[1:03:40] Speaker 5: arc on the.
[1:03:42] Speaker 1: You know what.
[1:03:42] Speaker 2: You know what I wonder if the industry is still
[1:03:44] Speaker 2: into because I still use it, that stretchy net Yep,
[1:03:47] Speaker 2: you guys still use that stuff.
[1:03:48] Speaker 5: We actually saw the so yeah, I didn't bring any
[1:03:51] Speaker 5: but and and most of that. So it's a it's
[1:03:54] Speaker 5: elastic netting.
[1:03:56] Speaker 1: You buy a roll that last whole lifetime.
[1:03:57] Speaker 5: And it's used to put just service characters on the
[1:04:00] Speaker 5: whatever you want to do.
[1:04:01] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you think that's how you guys think of it.
[1:04:04] Speaker 5: That's what I think I would ask.
[1:04:05] Speaker 2: But you know, I got one of those big stuffers
[1:04:08] Speaker 2: that bought like a big giant cylinder and you you
[1:04:12] Speaker 2: load that netting on the end of that tube.
[1:04:14] Speaker 1: And you can take a.
[1:04:15] Speaker 2: Duck or a pheasant or anything like that and cram
[1:04:18] Speaker 2: it through there and it comes out wrapped up trust
[1:04:22] Speaker 2: in that little net.
[1:04:23] Speaker 5: It's like a Christmas Christmas tree.
[1:04:25] Speaker 2: And then when you when but when you brine and
[1:04:27] Speaker 2: smoke it or whatever, you know, I mean, if you
[1:04:28] Speaker 2: smoke a duck or something, he goes like this, Yeah,
[1:04:32] Speaker 2: well if you if you mesh him, he stays all
[1:04:37] Speaker 2: like a little ball.
[1:04:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, and the marks look cool.
[1:04:41] Speaker 5: That does make some cool marks. Y.
[1:04:42] Speaker 3: You were telling me when we talked on the phone
[1:04:44] Speaker 3: about using cellulus products to impart flavor and color two.
[1:04:52] Speaker 3: I think specifically like lunch meats and stuff. But in
[1:04:56] Speaker 3: theory you could do that with a duck.
[1:04:57] Speaker 5: Right good.
[1:04:59] Speaker 4: Hey, yeah, kind of prints like explain that.
[1:05:02] Speaker 5: So yeah, the the guy over here, that's that's smoke treated.
[1:05:06] Speaker 5: So we have transfer case. So yeah. Actually, the guys
[1:05:13] Speaker 5: they said, uh, I was getting the printed stuff. They
[1:05:15] Speaker 5: we made that in our printer down to Mexico at
[1:05:19] Speaker 5: our at our plant and he was sending those. I said,
[1:05:21] Speaker 5: can you put some smoke stuff in there? And he goes, sure,
[1:05:24] Speaker 5: you want me to do that? So I brought it
[1:05:29] Speaker 5: and it sat and sat in my kitchen for a while.
[1:05:32] Speaker 5: My wife looks the first time, what have you been
[1:05:35] Speaker 5: cooking it here? It's like, yeah, it's my hot dog casing.
[1:05:38] Speaker 1: So what's the electric blue one you got there?
[1:05:41] Speaker 5: So that size is probably for a for like a
[1:05:45] Speaker 5: cocktail weenie or yeah, it's eighteen nineteen milimeter they've got
[1:05:52] Speaker 5: Why is it electric blue? It's electric blue because this
[1:05:55] Speaker 5: customer has a visualization system that looks for that blue color.
[1:06:00] Speaker 4: To make sure they got to make sure they got
[1:06:01] Speaker 4: off interesting.
[1:06:04] Speaker 5: Or most hot dog manufacturers have that looks for the
[1:06:08] Speaker 5: black stripe. So they're looking for that black stripe.
[1:06:12] Speaker 4: Is that that's automated like they're they're sorting.
[1:06:15] Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, just making sure that it's all it's all gone.
[1:06:20] Speaker 1: God, yep.
[1:06:22] Speaker 5: So you were asking about transfers, So we've got smoke transfer.
[1:06:26] Speaker 5: Is if if I'm going to make a product, but
[1:06:28] Speaker 5: I'm not going to run it through a smokehouse, but
[1:06:30] Speaker 5: I wanted to have a smoke flavor, you'd buy a
[1:06:33] Speaker 5: casing with smoke transfer. There are also color transfers. The
[1:06:39] Speaker 5: biggest in the hot dog world is uh Is Dark
[1:06:44] Speaker 5: Cherry for making the red hot dog. So they're big
[1:06:49] Speaker 5: up in Massachusetts.
[1:06:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, but what does that come from with call them
[1:06:52] Speaker 1: like then, they used to call them red hots and stuff.
[1:06:54] Speaker 5: There's a brand, but.
[1:06:57] Speaker 1: That was just a branding thing.
[1:06:59] Speaker 5: Yeah, I said, I mean, you're gonna add these dogs
[1:07:02] Speaker 5: have probably a little bit of sodium nitrate in to
[1:07:04] Speaker 5: give it that pink color. That's what does. That sodium
[1:07:08] Speaker 5: nitrate also kills botulism and all the bad stuff. It's
[1:07:13] Speaker 5: probably got some phosphate in it to help get the
[1:07:16] Speaker 5: pH up pH discussion. I'll talk about that in my
[1:07:21] Speaker 5: venison recipe. Yeah, it's a cultural thing. I can I
[1:07:29] Speaker 5: can say that in the US, the majority of our
[1:07:34] Speaker 5: dark cherry red casings, and and that that color does
[1:07:37] Speaker 5: transfer from the casing to the hot dog. We also
[1:07:41] Speaker 5: have caramel colors, mostly in plastic and fibrous that transfers
[1:07:46] Speaker 5: a caramel color on the outside of the lunch meat.
[1:07:50] Speaker 5: For example. You know you see that rind, some of that,
[1:07:53] Speaker 5: You know a lot of that smoke, right, because it's
[1:07:57] Speaker 5: a smoked ham and that color comes from smoke. But
[1:08:02] Speaker 5: you know, I've said it a couple of times. The
[1:08:04] Speaker 5: consumer votes, you know votes, and their vote is with
[1:08:06] Speaker 5: their wallet in their eyes until they're hooked until they're
[1:08:10] Speaker 5: hooked till they have a flavor of flavor hook And
[1:08:14] Speaker 5: I want to see that kind of as a human being.
[1:08:16] Speaker 5: I want to see a nice ring on the outside
[1:08:19] Speaker 5: of my deli meat as it looks well put together.
[1:08:21] Speaker 1: Right do you do you happen to know? In barbecue
[1:08:26] Speaker 1: mm hmm. So they go like Texas barbecue whatever.
[1:08:29] Speaker 2: People want to see that smoke ring, and then there's
[1:08:32] Speaker 2: talk about how deeply penetrated that smoke ring is.
[1:08:36] Speaker 1: What is happening? Like, what is that ring? That's why
[1:08:40] Speaker 1: does it make that color?
[1:08:41] Speaker 5: So it's it's quite very similar to how we make
[1:08:44] Speaker 5: hot dog. Right we said it goes into the smokehouse
[1:08:46] Speaker 5: and those surfaces it's myosin. So the protein, once you've
[1:08:51] Speaker 5: extracted the protein out, it's in form of myosin. Heat
[1:08:55] Speaker 5: will make miosin migrate to the surface and the smoke
[1:09:01] Speaker 5: makes it crossing. So that's what makes the skin on
[1:09:06] Speaker 5: a hot dog. That's what makes a smoke ring. My
[1:09:11] Speaker 5: my argument is I want the biggest smoke ring I
[1:09:15] Speaker 5: can I can get when I'm smoking a butt.
[1:09:21] Speaker 1: Not a cigarette, but but like correct.
[1:09:23] Speaker 5: Boston, but I'm from Alabama, that's what we call. Yeah,
[1:09:28] Speaker 5: just a butt.
[1:09:29] Speaker 1: No, you said it word, but you just said should
[1:09:32] Speaker 1: we call it?
[1:09:33] Speaker 5: Where in Alabama?
[1:09:36] Speaker 1: Smoking a butt?
[1:09:37] Speaker 5: My wife's gonna get onto me. She's gonna say I've
[1:09:39] Speaker 5: been mumbling. So she's she's she's in she's in the bud.
[1:09:43] Speaker 1: I'm trying to my wife.
[1:09:45] Speaker 5: She's in your bed. So she's.
[1:09:48] Speaker 1: Good.
[1:09:49] Speaker 3: God.
[1:09:49] Speaker 5: The the comments that I got prepared for this from
[1:09:51] Speaker 5: her is don't mumble, don't use the word awesome, don't
[1:09:55] Speaker 5: do this, don't do that. She gave me all kinds
[1:09:57] Speaker 5: of good advoice.
[1:09:58] Speaker 4: I've been listening for us and you haven't said it
[1:10:01] Speaker 4: once until now.
[1:10:02] Speaker 5: That's awesome. Thanks.
[1:10:05] Speaker 2: So so that okay? That that ring? Tell me against
[1:10:09] Speaker 2: I want to memorize this. Yeah, the ring from smoking
[1:10:13] Speaker 2: is something is being drawn towards the.
[1:10:16] Speaker 5: Being drawn drawn to the surface, okay, and then the
[1:10:20] Speaker 5: smoke cross links it to make that that ring.
[1:10:26] Speaker 1: Okay. So theoretically you could theoretically do it to the
[1:10:31] Speaker 1: point where that was through and through it'll always diminish
[1:10:34] Speaker 1: towards the center.
[1:10:36] Speaker 5: I don't think he could because smoke penetration on a
[1:10:40] Speaker 5: piece of meat. If you put a Boston butt on
[1:10:45] Speaker 5: a smoker, yeah, you only need to leave it on
[1:10:48] Speaker 5: there for the first hour. After that it's done.
[1:10:50] Speaker 1: The smoke.
[1:10:51] Speaker 5: It's not gonna absorb anymore smoke, it's not gonna get anymore.
[1:10:56] Speaker 1: That's what It's just heat from there on.
[1:10:57] Speaker 5: After that, you might as well throw it in the oven.
[1:11:00] Speaker 5: Is that right? Hour two? Depending on your temperature? Right?
[1:11:06] Speaker 5: No kidding, you know, And that's me as a Alabama
[1:11:10] Speaker 5: barbecue god, not as a casing expert.
[1:11:14] Speaker 1: You guys got that good white sauce though.
[1:11:16] Speaker 5: Alabama white sauce pretty good. I ate at a place
[1:11:19] Speaker 5: here in town last night and they had Alabama.
[1:11:21] Speaker 1: White sauce right where you were. Did you get it
[1:11:23] Speaker 1: on the chicken?
[1:11:23] Speaker 5: I did? I got. I ended up getting the pulled
[1:11:25] Speaker 5: port because I wanted to see if you guys got
[1:11:27] Speaker 5: to figure it out.
[1:11:28] Speaker 1: Does it start with a A.
[1:11:29] Speaker 5: Started with a B.
[1:11:33] Speaker 1: You weren't a works.
[1:11:35] Speaker 5: It's a restaurant that family man I go to his
[1:11:38] Speaker 5: al works. Dude, Okay, just I didn't know the town.
[1:11:41] Speaker 5: It was close to the.
[1:11:42] Speaker 1: Hotel booth family. I got a big booth going there.
[1:11:49] Speaker 1: You're kind of in your own little zone, like in
[1:11:51] Speaker 1: your own little private area.
[1:11:53] Speaker 5: Yeah, I've got to be both My wife's four nine.
[1:11:57] Speaker 5: So she's a little bitty and and it was fine.
[1:12:01] Speaker 5: So I've got to be she's small. Yeah, she's small,
[1:12:07] Speaker 5: and so we we have to be careful about where
[1:12:10] Speaker 5: we eat because reach up to the counter.
[1:12:13] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:12:15] Speaker 5: So when we go there, I said, do you want
[1:12:17] Speaker 5: to see do you want to sit at a high
[1:12:19] Speaker 5: high one of the hot tables or one of the
[1:12:22] Speaker 5: regular table regular tables? Yeah, it's just because their feet dangle.
[1:12:26] Speaker 4: I have the opposite problem.
[1:12:28] Speaker 3: I want to find a place where the table isn't
[1:12:30] Speaker 3: too close to the back of the booths.
[1:12:32] Speaker 5: Why is that so.
[1:12:32] Speaker 4: That I can fit in without my shirt hands?
[1:12:35] Speaker 1: Oh, you don't like getting all in there and you're
[1:12:36] Speaker 1: getting trying to climb in there?
[1:12:40] Speaker 5: If you if you wouldn't eat eight hot dogs, Darren,
[1:12:44] Speaker 5: we need to dog like so do I need to
[1:12:48] Speaker 5: get you in like the big contest up in New York?
[1:12:52] Speaker 1: Could you?
[1:12:54] Speaker 5: Could you have that?
[1:12:54] Speaker 1: Mean? The competitive hot dog contest? Are we really gonna.
[1:12:57] Speaker 5: Joey Chestnut one? It was seventy point five high dogs?
[1:13:00] Speaker 1: Last listen, man, that is you're not into that, are you?
[1:13:04] Speaker 1: That is? That is just that is grotesque?
[1:13:08] Speaker 5: Soaking them in water and just no, no, I would
[1:13:12] Speaker 5: do it.
[1:13:13] Speaker 3: I would do a contest where you're just eating normal
[1:13:15] Speaker 3: hot dogs, like you like if you're.
[1:13:18] Speaker 4: Eating them to enjoy them.
[1:13:19] Speaker 1: If it's a hot dog enjoyment contest, and they could
[1:13:22] Speaker 1: like hook dudes up to like a pleasure meter. Yeah yeah,
[1:13:27] Speaker 1: and then who can score the highest pleasure? Yeah you like,
[1:13:32] Speaker 1: yeah exactly, something like that, the pleasure measurer. Just try
[1:13:36] Speaker 1: some way, Like.
[1:13:37] Speaker 2: What what do you get when you go for a hike?
[1:13:38] Speaker 2: You get a bunch of endorphins? I mean, are you
[1:13:41] Speaker 2: getting endorphins? Are you getting like it's like because there's
[1:13:43] Speaker 2: gotta be like a guilt. There's like get hit by
[1:13:46] Speaker 2: guilt and doorphins, So like those the guilt and the
[1:13:50] Speaker 2: endorphins are.
[1:13:51] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's probably it's probably like the butt at some point,
[1:13:54] Speaker 3: like the two meet and they just can't go any further.
[1:13:59] Speaker 5: He'd measures all very flow and all.
[1:14:01] Speaker 1: Like yeah exactly. But I don't know how do you
[1:14:04] Speaker 1: measure guilt?
[1:14:05] Speaker 4: You know?
[1:14:05] Speaker 1: Because I want to see that in.
[1:14:06] Speaker 5: The yeah, like the darting of the eyes you read
[1:14:09] Speaker 5: my face?
[1:14:10] Speaker 4: I think, how about do we? I mean, could you
[1:14:15] Speaker 4: talk about.
[1:14:15] Speaker 3: Baloney for just a second, because I've always like if
[1:14:19] Speaker 3: you'd ask me when I was five years old, I
[1:14:21] Speaker 3: could have told you, like, baloney and hot dogs are cousins.
[1:14:26] Speaker 5: They're closer than cousins.
[1:14:27] Speaker 3: Then that's what I want to Yeah, that's that's sort
[1:14:29] Speaker 3: of what I'm here. Yeah, so so tell me like.
[1:14:32] Speaker 5: I mean, maloney is an emulsion that's that's cooked in
[1:14:35] Speaker 5: a in a casing.
[1:14:37] Speaker 1: Right. Is it smoked?
[1:14:39] Speaker 5: No? I don't know if there's smoking. I mean, I
[1:14:44] Speaker 5: know I like frying bloneye yeah, and I like smoking.
[1:14:47] Speaker 5: Have you seen the video of the guys getting a
[1:14:49] Speaker 5: chob of baloney and smoking on a smoker?
[1:14:51] Speaker 1: Give in the what? So what are you saying?
[1:14:55] Speaker 4: Job?
[1:14:56] Speaker 3: You missed this when you're when you're texting. That's the
[1:15:00] Speaker 3: technical term for those loafs of meat you see in
[1:15:04] Speaker 3: the deli counter as a job.
[1:15:05] Speaker 5: But really yeah, so this.
[1:15:08] Speaker 1: Is for loading chobs, right, is that what it is?
[1:15:12] Speaker 5: Yeah?
[1:15:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that, man.
[1:15:16] Speaker 5: But yeah, I've seen some some cool videos of guys
[1:15:19] Speaker 5: that buy the whole thing from the deli its smoke
[1:15:22] Speaker 5: bolooney and smoke it and that looks outstanding. I've never
[1:15:25] Speaker 5: done it.
[1:15:26] Speaker 4: That's a great yeah.
[1:15:29] Speaker 5: Yeah, but I mean it's the exact same process. Can
[1:15:31] Speaker 5: extract proteins, control temperature, add fat, add your flavor profile.
[1:15:39] Speaker 5: So that's the one pieces. There's very specific spices and
[1:15:42] Speaker 5: things you use to get a Frank Furter.
[1:15:45] Speaker 4: Profile, right, And you were mentioning some of those earlier.
[1:15:49] Speaker 5: I think there's nutbag, coriander, there's some there's some things
[1:15:53] Speaker 5: in a roller dog in a classic more New York style,
[1:15:58] Speaker 5: Chicago style, Like when you think Frankfurter, that's what that's
[1:16:03] Speaker 5: what's in there. Yeah, So if you took there's also
[1:16:07] Speaker 5: garlic and onion and all the kind of standard.
[1:16:10] Speaker 1: Spices in a normal dog.
[1:16:13] Speaker 5: But every Yeah, and I would say that every single manufacturer,
[1:16:18] Speaker 5: that's the secret sauce, right, that's their own.
[1:16:24] Speaker 1: And this blowney question, could you mix like if you
[1:16:28] Speaker 1: mix up a batch of like you mix up a
[1:16:31] Speaker 1: hot dog emulsion, could you just decide I'm gonna throw
[1:16:35] Speaker 1: it into a blowny casing and then be like it's blowny.
[1:16:39] Speaker 5: Now different formulas?
[1:16:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, got it. This is not the same, right.
[1:16:44] Speaker 5: I would say the manufacturing process is the same, obviously,
[1:16:48] Speaker 5: the stuffing equipment is much much larger than on a
[1:16:53] Speaker 5: on a hot dog and a slower process.
[1:16:57] Speaker 1: I want I want to touch on process chicken for
[1:16:59] Speaker 1: a minute. Is that are you're familiar with?
[1:17:01] Speaker 5: Mildly asking all I answer if I can.
[1:17:04] Speaker 1: So people will point out.
[1:17:07] Speaker 2: They'll they'll be like like, uh did certain major fast
[1:17:15] Speaker 2: food chains will have their chicken products okay, chicken finger items, nuggets, whatever, okay, And.
[1:17:24] Speaker 1: People will say, well, but that that was made from a.
[1:17:28] Speaker 5: Slurry mechanically separated chicken.
[1:17:31] Speaker 1: Is that? Yeah? What what is that? Like? Like, how
[1:17:36] Speaker 1: do you do that? But then get it to be
[1:17:38] Speaker 1: that it's like you can hold on to it and
[1:17:39] Speaker 1: it's got a breading on it because it's not like
[1:17:43] Speaker 1: a chunk of a chicken cut out and fried.
[1:17:46] Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I I'd say it's it's probably closer
[1:17:49] Speaker 5: to the deli meat processing that we that we were
[1:17:51] Speaker 5: talking about, where you free up proteins on the edge
[1:17:56] Speaker 5: of that chicken with enzymes and other things, and then
[1:17:58] Speaker 5: you press it into a mold and it basically glues
[1:18:01] Speaker 5: it all together. You know, you can you can look
[1:18:05] Speaker 5: at a sandwich mean and see does it have fat
[1:18:08] Speaker 5: veining in it? And does it not? And if it's
[1:18:12] Speaker 5: got fat and fat maanning, it's a whole muscle cut
[1:18:14] Speaker 5: right just cut right off, or if it doesn't, it
[1:18:17] Speaker 5: was it went through some level of processing. But again,
[1:18:21] Speaker 5: I think the thing I'm trying to convey is that
[1:18:24] Speaker 5: the processing it's not scary, it's not you know, it's
[1:18:29] Speaker 5: not this conglomerate of stuff we're sweeping off the floor,
[1:18:35] Speaker 5: you know. I mean, I saw you see in front
[1:18:37] Speaker 5: of every one of these places FDA parking, And I
[1:18:40] Speaker 5: asked one of the guys, I said, how how often
[1:18:42] Speaker 5: these guys in? Said once or twice a day? Like
[1:18:45] Speaker 5: every day? Yeah, yeah, every shift. So they're coming in
[1:18:50] Speaker 5: to do their checks and all that kind of stuff,
[1:18:52] Speaker 5: and it's it's a clean process.
[1:18:54] Speaker 1: And falls under FDA. It's not us DA, right, got it,
[1:19:00] Speaker 1: because like butchering is USDA, but or like you know,
[1:19:03] Speaker 1: like a USDA and spectator.
[1:19:05] Speaker 5: I'm not. I don't know a whole lot about the
[1:19:07] Speaker 5: certifications and all that. That was just a question. I asked,
[1:19:10] Speaker 5: how from these guys in they're basically checking temperatures and
[1:19:13] Speaker 5: conditions and all that kind of stuff. Yep, yeah, I mean.
[1:19:17] Speaker 5: And so to call that those fast food chain chicken
[1:19:22] Speaker 5: processing a slurry, I don't know that I would call
[1:19:25] Speaker 5: it that.
[1:19:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's meant to dog on it. That's
[1:19:27] Speaker 1: meant to make it look bad.
[1:19:28] Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think it's it's potentially there's a range, right,
[1:19:33] Speaker 5: there's a whole muscle cut that I'm just slicing off
[1:19:36] Speaker 5: the bird. M Then there's I'm I'm making sure I'm
[1:19:42] Speaker 5: using whole use of the animal. So I'm gonna combine
[1:19:46] Speaker 5: the trimmings to deli meat, or if you start migrating
[1:19:52] Speaker 5: into the emulsion space, I'm going to make an emulsion
[1:19:54] Speaker 5: and cook it.
[1:19:55] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:19:56] Speaker 3: It's the same as like if you had a when
[1:19:59] Speaker 3: you grind your deer, when you grind all your you know,
[1:20:03] Speaker 3: off cuts, whatever, the grind pile.
[1:20:05] Speaker 4: Some people like that. You know that burger eating came.
[1:20:08] Speaker 3: From the deer's all different parts of the deer that
[1:20:11] Speaker 3: was never on the deer in that form, right, It's
[1:20:13] Speaker 3: just a difference.
[1:20:14] Speaker 5: Complete use of the animal.
[1:20:16] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:20:18] Speaker 5: Yeah. My father in law constantly says, well, you know
[1:20:21] Speaker 5: what the most valuable weight of a chicken is, what's
[1:20:23] Speaker 5: the most valuable thing on a chicken?
[1:20:25] Speaker 1: By weight?
[1:20:27] Speaker 5: Because he says this, I've heard it three hundred thousand
[1:20:30] Speaker 5: times from him.
[1:20:31] Speaker 1: By weight by weight? Liver feathers, Is that right?
[1:20:38] Speaker 5: Yeah? Because they're extremely light, you know, and they're they're
[1:20:42] Speaker 5: highly valuable. They make feedstock, proteins and all kinds of Yeah, man,
[1:20:50] Speaker 5: you know they stuff them in pillows and whatnot.
[1:20:52] Speaker 2: You know what's crazy is on that subject, I can't
[1:20:56] Speaker 2: remember if I sent this to you, is these archaeologists
[1:21:01] Speaker 2: have developed this technique now where they can go look
[1:21:05] Speaker 2: at h ancient grave sites okay where you just now
[1:21:12] Speaker 2: you you dig it up and you think it was
[1:21:13] Speaker 2: just bones. They've developed these techniques where they can identify
[1:21:18] Speaker 2: down to genus and family generally what feathers we're in
[1:21:26] Speaker 2: that grave totally.
[1:21:27] Speaker 1: You'd never discern it.
[1:21:28] Speaker 2: The human eye would never be able to discern it,
[1:21:30] Speaker 2: like you digging ye within the within the soil, and
[1:21:34] Speaker 2: they can there there's this whole thing, these these five
[1:21:36] Speaker 2: thousand year old burial sites in Sweden and then amount
[1:21:43] Speaker 2: just the thing we would never known about these people
[1:21:46] Speaker 2: is that that just that must have been like elaborate headdresses,
[1:21:51] Speaker 2: capes and things out of feathers. Where there's these burials
[1:21:55] Speaker 2: that they got a half dozen different they're finding that
[1:21:57] Speaker 2: they're buried with a half dozen different kinds.
[1:21:59] Speaker 1: Of space hawk, oh, will grouse, water fowl, wow, all
[1:22:06] Speaker 1: in these like feathers in these in these sights the
[1:22:11] Speaker 1: previous people thought of as just bones.
[1:22:14] Speaker 2: So like when you look at the when you look
[1:22:16] Speaker 2: at archaeology, you often see that they'll like, let's say
[1:22:19] Speaker 2: this whole room is an archaeological site. Some dude might
[1:22:22] Speaker 2: come in and do one square meter, but then he's
[1:22:25] Speaker 2: like you leave the rest, Like that's why.
[1:22:29] Speaker 5: Hmm. So you've got something because sometimes.
[1:22:32] Speaker 2: Some dude's like, no, man, I could take that dirt
[1:22:34] Speaker 2: and tell you what he was buried, like what he
[1:22:35] Speaker 2: was wearing when he was buried, you know. So you
[1:22:39] Speaker 2: like that that level of restraint like lead you know,
[1:22:41] Speaker 2: like leave it because dudes in the future will be
[1:22:44] Speaker 2: able to do amazing, you know, in ways you can't imagine,
[1:22:47] Speaker 2: you know what I mean. But just thinking about that
[1:22:49] Speaker 2: what made me think of that? As you're saying that
[1:22:51] Speaker 2: they that that that those feathers are utilized.
[1:22:55] Speaker 5: That's the goal. Everything's utilized. But yeah, that's that's absolutely
[1:22:59] Speaker 5: And using the technology that you have to do to
[1:23:02] Speaker 5: figure out the DNA, I guess.
[1:23:04] Speaker 1: And they and they look at a lot of these
[1:23:07] Speaker 1: people are laid on their side and they can look
[1:23:10] Speaker 1: at where so like you know, they'll find that there's
[1:23:12] Speaker 1: a lot of stuff around the shoulder area, there's stuff
[1:23:14] Speaker 1: around the head area, there's stuff on the elbow area,
[1:23:18] Speaker 1: you know where they had adornment, feather adornment on them.
[1:23:22] Speaker 5: And I think it's like they died and this was
[1:23:24] Speaker 5: the burial.
[1:23:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, ceremonial berriers, ceremonial burials. Yeah. How much how much
[1:23:31] Speaker 1: have you dealt with normal casings, natural.
[1:23:34] Speaker 5: Case natural casings? You know, a decent amount. I mean,
[1:23:37] Speaker 5: so we don't we don't supply them. So the natural
[1:23:39] Speaker 5: casings are in the form of hog, sheep or collagen.
[1:23:43] Speaker 2: Yep, we'll talk about hog hog casinges. One time we
[1:23:47] Speaker 2: took a wild hog. We're hunting down in Florida. I
[1:23:50] Speaker 2: took a wild hog and I got out. I don't know,
[1:23:53] Speaker 2: man like, you could have stretched it from me to
[1:23:55] Speaker 2: that wall over there, I.
[1:23:56] Speaker 1: Guess from one from one of these walls. The other
[1:23:58] Speaker 1: wall wasn't that long. Probably now I'm lying, it was
[1:24:03] Speaker 1: half that distance, Okay.
[1:24:07] Speaker 2: Inverted, soaked it in vinegar, soaked it in a mild
[1:24:09] Speaker 2: vinegar solution, water and vinegar, just loosen it up.
[1:24:13] Speaker 1: Inverted the whole thing because it's all fatty on the inside.
[1:24:19] Speaker 1: And then we just very gently scraped it and scraped
[1:24:22] Speaker 1: it and scraped it until we had like what you
[1:24:25] Speaker 1: would buy when you bought natural casings and then made
[1:24:30] Speaker 1: Brits out of it. It was funny about it. It
[1:24:32] Speaker 1: was the toughest, like, I don't know where we went wrong.
[1:24:36] Speaker 5: Did you salt it? So that's part of the process.
[1:24:40] Speaker 1: It was you bit that broad dude. You were fighting
[1:24:43] Speaker 1: that brot, trying to get your bite off.
[1:24:45] Speaker 2: And I was like, man, there's something we didn't do,
[1:24:47] Speaker 2: you know, I mean, there's something we did, like oversight
[1:24:49] Speaker 2: we made you know.
[1:24:49] Speaker 5: Sure. Yeah. The guy that founded our company, his uncle
[1:24:53] Speaker 5: ran a natural casing company, okay, and it was called
[1:24:58] Speaker 5: Oppenheimer Casings, I think, and they he went.
[1:25:02] Speaker 1: Like a whole nuclear deal here.
[1:25:03] Speaker 5: So that's what I originally thought, because he originally sold
[1:25:06] Speaker 5: some of his land to the U to the U. S.
[1:25:10] Speaker 5: Government some sort of nuclear you know. It was all
[1:25:13] Speaker 5: around that same time. I said, I said, is this
[1:25:16] Speaker 5: the Oppenheimer Like Oppenheimer? No, no different, open man, So
[1:25:23] Speaker 5: I'll take it. So he he went to Europe saw
[1:25:26] Speaker 5: this this viscus process. Hey, I think we can make
[1:25:28] Speaker 5: inedible hot dog casings and his uncle said, no, we're
[1:25:36] Speaker 5: we're in the natural casing business, not going to diverse
[1:25:39] Speaker 5: fy And he said, okay, I will, And so he
[1:25:43] Speaker 5: left start his own company. I mean that the guts
[1:25:47] Speaker 5: that it would have to take to leave the family
[1:25:49] Speaker 5: business good.
[1:25:50] Speaker 1: I don't think I'll call it filled and catch it.
[1:25:52] Speaker 5: It was good that. And so then he starts a
[1:25:58] Speaker 5: company called it vis King, Vis King K I n
[1:26:02] Speaker 5: G the vis for visc, the vis Coast process. This
[1:26:06] Speaker 5: thing regenerated cellulos King. I'm not sure why that the
[1:26:12] Speaker 5: first brand name, these these casings are. We still carry
[1:26:15] Speaker 5: the same brand called No Jacks, So you got Kings
[1:26:18] Speaker 5: and Jacks, so that there's rumors going around. Here's a
[1:26:24] Speaker 5: big card guy, you know. And and so then he
[1:26:27] Speaker 5: decided to different you know, he was all about expanding
[1:26:32] Speaker 5: the business, going in new, different areas. So he took
[1:26:34] Speaker 5: us to plastics and the original brand, so you got Kings.
[1:26:39] Speaker 5: Jack's was Vis Queen.
[1:26:42] Speaker 1: Oh huh.
[1:26:43] Speaker 5: And I still call plastic sheets vis Queen, sure like
[1:26:47] Speaker 5: I still call it that. Yeah, I had no idea
[1:26:50] Speaker 5: why he worked for this company. So it is vis
[1:26:53] Speaker 5: King and this queen, which event we sold off the
[1:26:56] Speaker 5: Vis Queen.
[1:26:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, like it's an entry level ground cloth when you're
[1:27:00] Speaker 1: camping ground club.
[1:27:04] Speaker 5: I still call it that. So that's where it came from.
[1:27:06] Speaker 5: It was that plastic films, you know, And so he
[1:27:09] Speaker 5: kind of came in at the right time. So it
[1:27:13] Speaker 5: was the twenties. He's coming with a new technology to
[1:27:16] Speaker 5: make making sausages lower cost for the consumer.
[1:27:21] Speaker 1: Got it because the casing, the natural casing was expensive.
[1:27:24] Speaker 5: Was more expensive then the Great Depression hits and every
[1:27:29] Speaker 5: single family's got beans and franks on their dinner table,
[1:27:32] Speaker 5: you know, during the depression. And it was just starting
[1:27:37] Speaker 5: a business. I've tried it, You've you've done it. It's
[1:27:40] Speaker 5: hard and it's all about timing. Like this guy had
[1:27:44] Speaker 5: the right idea at the right time to revolutionize the
[1:27:48] Speaker 5: hot dog industry because there was no skinless hot dog.
[1:27:51] Speaker 1: Untelli intentedies and that was around what year.
[1:27:53] Speaker 5: Nineteen twenty eight I think, and then when he they
[1:27:59] Speaker 5: come but he invented the shearing process, which is actually
[1:28:03] Speaker 5: a term that we stole from from this seeming industry.
[1:28:06] Speaker 5: There's a shearing stitch bunches fabric together. And that's what
[1:28:12] Speaker 5: he saw is when he go to a butcher, they
[1:28:14] Speaker 5: were waddening the casing up on the horn yep, to
[1:28:18] Speaker 5: to make sausages, Like why don't we do that for him?
[1:28:22] Speaker 5: And so he invented And there's a lot of science
[1:28:25] Speaker 5: that goes into how you make that, like how it's
[1:28:28] Speaker 5: twisted so when you share it, it's not just wadden
[1:28:33] Speaker 5: it up on itself, right, it's twisted and shoved and
[1:28:37] Speaker 5: twisted and shoved to get the folds and the right
[1:28:40] Speaker 5: so that you can get the maximum mount stuff on that.
[1:28:42] Speaker 1: Huh.
[1:28:42] Speaker 5: So there's a lot of a lot of science to it.
[1:28:44] Speaker 5: So it's pretty cool.
[1:28:46] Speaker 2: Now where do you see it going, Like with people
[1:28:48] Speaker 2: kind of starting to trip out about were people starting
[1:28:51] Speaker 2: to trip out about plastic and ingesting plastic and plastic
[1:28:55] Speaker 2: and food and stuff.
[1:28:56] Speaker 1: Do you picture there'd be people moving away from that.
[1:28:58] Speaker 5: I you know it's possible. So this to cell us
[1:29:00] Speaker 5: it's not. But but we do sell plastic casing the
[1:29:03] Speaker 5: ones I got. I think that when you go to.
[1:29:06] Speaker 2: Any deli and go to any deli in the world,
[1:29:08] Speaker 2: not in the world, go to any deli in this country, man,
[1:29:10] Speaker 2: and you go to the deli counters wrap meat.
[1:29:13] Speaker 5: It's a shrink wrap. I mean. So the one piece
[1:29:16] Speaker 5: on why you would use a plastic casing is it's
[1:29:20] Speaker 5: a it's non permeable, and so it adds perfect protection
[1:29:25] Speaker 5: to whatever's inside it. So so what are the You
[1:29:29] Speaker 5: got to weigh the pros and cons? Do I want
[1:29:32] Speaker 5: I want to watch a bacteria make it its way
[1:29:36] Speaker 5: into my food product? Or do I want plastic?
[1:29:39] Speaker 1: Is that kind of that's kind of the selling point
[1:29:41] Speaker 1: on that.
[1:29:42] Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's a non it's a non permeable barrier.
[1:29:46] Speaker 5: And I mean those things are used to package pet food.
[1:29:49] Speaker 5: You know, you see the new fresh fresh versions of
[1:29:53] Speaker 5: pet pet products that are in the.
[1:29:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting, man, I never thought of it, like
[1:29:57] Speaker 2: the trade off on it that it is that it's
[1:29:59] Speaker 2: like protect acting stuff getting in it. I mean it's obvious,
[1:30:02] Speaker 2: but I just hadn't really putting.
[1:30:04] Speaker 5: I think that. I think the big the big piece
[1:30:06] Speaker 5: is you just got to make sure that how does
[1:30:08] Speaker 5: it peel? Do you get it all off? What is that?
[1:30:11] Speaker 5: I mean? I I believe me, I get it. I'm microwave.
[1:30:15] Speaker 5: I used to microwave stuff in those plastic containers and
[1:30:19] Speaker 5: tell my wife started yelling at me, Right, I get it.
[1:30:22] Speaker 5: When he store spaghetti sauce and a plastic container, it's
[1:30:25] Speaker 5: stayed red for the rest of its life.
[1:30:28] Speaker 1: See this is the deal, Like I don't really know,
[1:30:29] Speaker 1: Like I don't know, and we'll get We'll get all
[1:30:31] Speaker 1: kinds of emails from people in the plastics industry when
[1:30:34] Speaker 1: I say this, but I don't really know, but I
[1:30:36] Speaker 1: might telling My kids would laughing about like when my
[1:30:37] Speaker 1: dad was in the army, they'd give you your c
[1:30:39] Speaker 1: rash and came with three cigarettes. Okay, So I'm always
[1:30:44] Speaker 1: telling them, like.
[1:30:46] Speaker 2: They'll come home and they'll be like, can you believe
[1:30:48] Speaker 2: people used to do X, Y or Z?
[1:30:51] Speaker 1: You know? Do they used to bleed?
[1:30:53] Speaker 2: Like the doctors would bleed you with leeches to try
[1:30:55] Speaker 2: to cure you of whatever. They will always have a laugh,
[1:30:57] Speaker 2: and I'm saying, but I said, you know, I don't
[1:31:02] Speaker 2: know what they are.
[1:31:03] Speaker 1: We're doing all kinds of things right now, Like this
[1:31:06] Speaker 1: doesn't end. We're doing all kinds of things right now.
[1:31:09] Speaker 2: That in fifty years seventy five years, people will say,
[1:31:13] Speaker 2: can you believe they.
[1:31:16] Speaker 5: Were using radiation to treat cancer?
[1:31:19] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[1:31:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it'd be like, I don't know, I
[1:31:22] Speaker 2: don't know, And I'm saying I don't know that it'll
[1:31:25] Speaker 2: be this or not. But they might say, can you
[1:31:27] Speaker 2: believe those people were putting leftover food and tupperware containers
[1:31:34] Speaker 2: of X, Y and Z model and putting it in
[1:31:38] Speaker 2: a microwave and then eating the hot contents.
[1:31:41] Speaker 1: I don't know that that's it, but there's some thing.
[1:31:44] Speaker 2: And so I'm like, so a good if I was
[1:31:46] Speaker 2: to give them a suggestion, I was like, if you
[1:31:49] Speaker 2: can afford to not do things that feel to you like,
[1:31:53] Speaker 2: maybe it's gonna be one of those kind of things,
[1:31:57] Speaker 2: you know, I know, but I'm like, it won't be
[1:31:59] Speaker 2: in the future that they're saying.
[1:32:00] Speaker 1: Can you believe they were eating deer, meating garden vegetables.
[1:32:04] Speaker 1: It's just like, not gonna be that won't be it, right,
[1:32:08] Speaker 1: It'll be some different things.
[1:32:10] Speaker 5: Yeah, And I I the way I look at it is,
[1:32:16] Speaker 5: you know, I know how I behave at home, but
[1:32:21] Speaker 5: I also know how lots of other people behave. Like
[1:32:24] Speaker 5: if I look at a river and see all the
[1:32:26] Speaker 5: plastic junk floating in a river, and that eventually gets
[1:32:29] Speaker 5: the water plant, eventually makes it through a pump, eventually
[1:32:31] Speaker 5: gets ground up. You know. So if I get microplastics
[1:32:36] Speaker 5: in my blood, is it is it because of the
[1:32:39] Speaker 5: way I mark away from my leftovers or is it
[1:32:41] Speaker 5: because some guy kept throwing plastic water bottles under the.
[1:32:46] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. I had thereon Nils had a conversation
[1:32:49] Speaker 1: with someone there asked me if, like, Great Lakes fish
[1:32:51] Speaker 1: are like really safe to eat because of the heavy metals, right,
[1:32:56] Speaker 1: And I'm like, man, when you die, it won't because
[1:32:57] Speaker 1: you're eating Great Lakes fish. It's something different. It gets you,
[1:33:04] Speaker 1: you know.
[1:33:05] Speaker 5: It's it's mercury down and where I live.
[1:33:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's it's a super fair point.
[1:33:12] Speaker 2: You can't head it off.
[1:33:14] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[1:33:14] Speaker 3: One one question I had earlier you mentioned the cost
[1:33:19] Speaker 3: thing and the great depression. You'd send me an email
[1:33:22] Speaker 3: and I showed this to Steve with some early ads
[1:33:25] Speaker 3: for hot dogs.
[1:33:26] Speaker 4: And one of them was some kid.
[1:33:29] Speaker 3: These two kids eating lunch together and one guy, one
[1:33:32] Speaker 3: kid's got two hot dogs and the other guy's got one.
[1:33:35] Speaker 3: And he says, he says, your mom gives you two,
[1:33:40] Speaker 3: and the kid goes, yeah, they're caseless. And we sat
[1:33:44] Speaker 3: there and were puzzling Overlook, what do you think that
[1:33:47] Speaker 3: allows him to eat too?
[1:33:49] Speaker 4: Remember this?
[1:33:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, so the other being a tight ass or something.
[1:33:52] Speaker 3: Yeah, So we were like, maybe they're suspicious of the
[1:33:55] Speaker 3: casing or you know, like what he means it's cheap
[1:33:59] Speaker 3: so he can get two hot dogs.
[1:34:01] Speaker 5: That's the key. Yeah, consumer votes with those wallet and
[1:34:04] Speaker 5: with his eyeballs.
[1:34:06] Speaker 3: Yeah, i'd been I'd been meaning to ask you about that,
[1:34:08] Speaker 3: and it clicked for me when you're talking about the
[1:34:10] Speaker 3: Great Depression.
[1:34:10] Speaker 5: One of those ads or just so hilarious. Oh yeah,
[1:34:15] Speaker 5: like you know, it's it's a similar thing. We look
[1:34:17] Speaker 5: back at our advertising back then.
[1:34:19] Speaker 1: It was there's an ammal ad we used to pass around.
[1:34:22] Speaker 1: There's an ammal ad where it's a dude doing a
[1:34:24] Speaker 1: grip and grin with a mountain gorilla.
[1:34:29] Speaker 4: Oh yeah, here's there. It is your mom, let's eat.
[1:34:34] Speaker 1: How come your mom let's eat two wieners, no skins.
[1:34:41] Speaker 5: Bill's a lucky guy.
[1:34:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, like mom, I'm smart, you know, like Randall has
[1:34:45] Speaker 1: like positive thoughts about dogs. I have very positive thoughts
[1:34:50] Speaker 1: about dogs.
[1:34:51] Speaker 5: You know, about the hot dog?
[1:34:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, like yeah, like like I look, I see a
[1:34:56] Speaker 1: hot dog and it get I get happy. When I
[1:34:59] Speaker 1: tell a hot dog story. It's a positive story. You know.
[1:35:02] Speaker 2: Now my wife she's got bad hot dog stories because
[1:35:06] Speaker 2: you know, like you know, when you're a kid at
[1:35:10] Speaker 2: a certain age, and it's kind of like fifth grade,
[1:35:12] Speaker 2: sixth grade, you become It's also you get introduced to
[1:35:16] Speaker 2: the idea of like that there's kids that get everything
[1:35:18] Speaker 2: they want, and there's kids that don't get everything they want.
[1:35:21] Speaker 2: So it'd be that, like there's kids like Randall's got nikes,
[1:35:24] Speaker 2: So in my school, he would have been a snob,
[1:35:26] Speaker 2: right right, and he would bully kids.
[1:35:29] Speaker 1: Whose mom wouldn't get him nikes, right right. This is
[1:35:34] Speaker 1: like a thing.
[1:35:35] Speaker 2: So I thought I was poor, but my mom and
[1:35:40] Speaker 2: dad just wouldn't waste money. They were actually quite well
[1:35:42] Speaker 2: off relative like we were like middle class people, and
[1:35:46] Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of our community was not
[1:35:47] Speaker 2: middle class. But I thought we were poor because I
[1:35:50] Speaker 2: couldn't get anything cool. Now, my wife would have to
[1:35:53] Speaker 2: get sent to school. You remember those like thermost containers. Sure,
[1:35:58] Speaker 2: her mom would drop oil water. Her mom would put
[1:36:01] Speaker 2: boiling water in one of those thermost containers and jam
[1:36:04] Speaker 2: a couple of dogs down in there and send her to.
[1:36:06] Speaker 1: School with that for her lunch.
[1:36:08] Speaker 2: So at lunchtime, all these other kids are eating like
[1:36:10] Speaker 2: Grido's or whatever they're like, Remember those crackers came out
[1:36:13] Speaker 2: and you get the cheese and it comes with a
[1:36:14] Speaker 2: little knife and all that. Yeah, they'd have all that
[1:36:16] Speaker 2: garbage and she'd have to crack open that thermis and
[1:36:19] Speaker 2: pull out those lukewarm dogs and eat everywhere.
[1:36:21] Speaker 4: Watch the steam just go.
[1:36:24] Speaker 1: And her My dogs are a bummer.
[1:36:27] Speaker 2: It reminds her of like being at the lunch room
[1:36:30] Speaker 2: eating those lukewarm dogs when everybody else is eating cool stuff.
[1:36:34] Speaker 5: She's right, She's not the only one that got sent
[1:36:37] Speaker 5: to the cafeteria with a thermist with hot dogs in it.
[1:36:40] Speaker 1: So that was the thing.
[1:36:46] Speaker 5: Yeah, it's pre microwave, right, you gotta have something to
[1:36:48] Speaker 5: keep it warm. I got sent to school with a
[1:36:51] Speaker 5: thermos flat dogs.
[1:36:53] Speaker 1: She sees a dog, when she sees a roller dog,
[1:36:57] Speaker 1: she's bummed.
[1:36:59] Speaker 2: Okay, she needs to go to therapy about it. Yeah,
[1:37:01] Speaker 2: because the other day we were at my daughter's volleyball tournament.
[1:37:03] Speaker 2: They had a concession stand up there. I went up there.
[1:37:06] Speaker 2: She got like a diet pepsy or something dumb like that,
[1:37:09] Speaker 2: and I got two dogs.
[1:37:11] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, she even asked me for biteing my dogs.
[1:37:15] Speaker 5: I don't think I've ever been unhappy eating a hot dog,
[1:37:18] Speaker 5: Like it's always a good thing. Like you're over a campfire,
[1:37:22] Speaker 5: you're at a ball game, you're doing normally doing something fun.
[1:37:25] Speaker 4: No, that's how I feel about it.
[1:37:27] Speaker 1: Fueling up the truck.
[1:37:28] Speaker 3: Yeah, like a sunshine a hot dog, a beer and
[1:37:34] Speaker 3: a hot dog, like camp fire hot dog. It's just
[1:37:38] Speaker 3: something in my brain where it's this positive association and
[1:37:42] Speaker 3: I'm like, life is good.
[1:37:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, no one's ever kicking the shit out of you
[1:37:45] Speaker 1: when you're having a hot dog.
[1:37:46] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[1:37:49] Speaker 4: It takes me back to the trenches.
[1:37:54] Speaker 1: All right, So tell us a little here. We've been
[1:37:57] Speaker 1: teasing it. Tell us tell us the ultimate like like
[1:38:01] Speaker 1: walk listeners through.
[1:38:04] Speaker 2: You know what we should do. Maybe we should launch
[1:38:06] Speaker 2: it right now if people are interested. If anyone out
[1:38:08] Speaker 2: there wants to try to send in.
[1:38:13] Speaker 1: A deer meat roller dog, please please them. You know
[1:38:18] Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it.
[1:38:19] Speaker 2: I don't think that people that have poison and stuff,
[1:38:21] Speaker 2: I don't think they use it like that. Yeah, I
[1:38:24] Speaker 2: don't think they're gonna send us the poison like dudes
[1:38:27] Speaker 2: with poison deliberately.
[1:38:29] Speaker 1: Yeah. And I could be like a.
[1:38:33] Speaker 2: Bacon a roller dog and then I'm gonna put my
[1:38:35] Speaker 2: my poison into it and send it.
[1:38:37] Speaker 3: He's got all his charts on the wall of how
[1:38:39] Speaker 3: he's finally gonna get Steve Ranella.
[1:38:41] Speaker 4: And then he hears this on the.
[1:38:42] Speaker 3: Podcast, he goes, ah, I'm just poison the dogs.
[1:38:45] Speaker 2: All I got to now is figure out how to
[1:38:46] Speaker 2: make a great hot dog, and then I just put
[1:38:48] Speaker 2: my poison in there and I'll kill him.
[1:38:50] Speaker 1: So I just don't see that being a risk.
[1:38:52] Speaker 2: So if people want to listen and make a great
[1:38:55] Speaker 2: roller dog out of deer meat, but then you can't
[1:38:57] Speaker 2: trick us and send us one made out of poison.
[1:39:02] Speaker 3: Yeah, talk about when you when you describe the hot dog,
[1:39:08] Speaker 3: this theory of a venison hot dog, can you go
[1:39:12] Speaker 3: back over just briefly, like the challenges and how you
[1:39:16] Speaker 3: and the steps that you're taking here to address those challenges.
[1:39:19] Speaker 5: So the steps are like that I can't see anything.
[1:39:24] Speaker 5: I can't see anything without them. Steps are a protein
[1:39:29] Speaker 5: extraction that e multification, temperature control than smoking. Right, That's
[1:39:34] Speaker 5: how every hot dogs made you know, So there is
[1:39:40] Speaker 5: there's a hot dog recipe on on your website for
[1:39:44] Speaker 5: for for a red snapper venison hot dog. Thanks for
[1:39:49] Speaker 5: ving that, Mike Randall, so I live.
[1:39:52] Speaker 1: Would you think that recipe?
[1:39:54] Speaker 5: I thought it was good. I think it's got.
[1:39:56] Speaker 1: Don't choose your words carefully here.
[1:39:58] Speaker 5: It's got problems.
[1:40:00] Speaker 1: Okay, that's what I'm trying to get to.
[1:40:01] Speaker 5: He uh, I wear it eight and a half in
[1:40:04] Speaker 5: my takova, so I'll point out all the mistakes eight
[1:40:09] Speaker 5: and a half. Uh. So, basically he's shoving together all
[1:40:17] Speaker 5: the ingredients for emulsion. He rightfully points out, I got
[1:40:19] Speaker 5: a control temperature, so he like prefridge the meat and
[1:40:23] Speaker 5: all this kind of stuff. But he made the emulsion
[1:40:27] Speaker 5: and then put it in in a freezer. So he's
[1:40:29] Speaker 5: like making an emulsion and then put it in the
[1:40:33] Speaker 5: refrigerator for a day, hoping that the proteins extract, hoping
[1:40:37] Speaker 5: and praying it did not. So in my mind, let's
[1:40:46] Speaker 5: let's extract the proteins right, Let's use salt, let's use ice,
[1:40:49] Speaker 5: Let's do it in a stand mixer, extract the protein's
[1:40:52] Speaker 5: right until it's super tacky, and then make a hot dog.
[1:40:57] Speaker 5: And I live on the Gulf Coast of Alabama and
[1:41:00] Speaker 5: calling it a red snapper of venison hot dog. I
[1:41:03] Speaker 5: said that to my son, He's like, that sounds disgusting.
[1:41:08] Speaker 5: It's a fish shoved. It doesn't sound very good. So yeah,
[1:41:15] Speaker 5: I mean, if I was so what I wanted to
[1:41:18] Speaker 5: do was investigate and and the one thing he does
[1:41:21] Speaker 5: in that recipe as he supplements pork trim and pork
[1:41:26] Speaker 5: pork fat as his fat source. And I'm I'm saying,
[1:41:31] Speaker 5: that's cheating. That's not what we're wanting to do.
[1:41:35] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so he's trying to make a hot dog.
[1:41:41] Speaker 5: I looked through all the fat options out there. Deer fat, Hey,
[1:41:47] Speaker 5: there's not enough of it. It's waxy, it's got a
[1:41:49] Speaker 5: super high melting point. It's out the door wild pig fat.
[1:41:55] Speaker 5: Mm hmm. Maybe, I mean it's pork right, you want
[1:41:59] Speaker 5: to it off the back, not off some of the
[1:42:02] Speaker 5: more active areas. The more I looked at it, I
[1:42:07] Speaker 5: think bear fat is the preferred fat for making a
[1:42:11] Speaker 5: pure wild hot dog really because of its melting point
[1:42:16] Speaker 5: and it behaves more like pork, and I think it'd
[1:42:18] Speaker 5: be a cool flavor.
[1:42:20] Speaker 1: And not rendered cube like cube fat.
[1:42:23] Speaker 5: Yeh yeh.
[1:42:24] Speaker 1: We had a couple of jars rendered right there, but yeah,
[1:42:27] Speaker 1: not rendered.
[1:42:28] Speaker 5: So I mean, ultimately, when you're making a hot dog,
[1:42:31] Speaker 5: you're trying to get that fat particle to one to
[1:42:34] Speaker 5: ten microns, so it could just spin. I don't think
[1:42:38] Speaker 5: you'd want to spin up rendered fat. I think you're
[1:42:40] Speaker 5: going to want to take cube cue cube fat. I
[1:42:44] Speaker 5: want to pre blend the fat, extract the protein separately,
[1:42:51] Speaker 5: then put them together A couple other work.
[1:42:56] Speaker 1: What would be the ratio there?
[1:42:59] Speaker 5: So I would use sixty five to seventy percent venison
[1:43:04] Speaker 5: lean venison eighteen to twenty two percent bear fat, very
[1:43:09] Speaker 5: specific number. I think that's where that's the range you're
[1:43:12] Speaker 5: gon gonna be like twenty percent. The biggest balance of
[1:43:18] Speaker 5: the formula would be ice. So you're talking ten twelve,
[1:43:22] Speaker 5: fifteen percent ice. That's the other thing.
[1:43:27] Speaker 1: What form shaved.
[1:43:29] Speaker 5: I it's gonna get shaved in the emulsifying process, you know,
[1:43:34] Speaker 5: A you it's it's all got to be gone before
[1:43:37] Speaker 5: you start stuffing. It all needs to be water before
[1:43:39] Speaker 5: you start stuff ice crystals. There's there's it's too dangerous.
[1:43:44] Speaker 5: There's there's things like listeria and things that can that
[1:43:47] Speaker 5: can happen when you've got crystallized ice in a in
[1:43:51] Speaker 5: a processed meat.
[1:43:52] Speaker 1: Is that right?
[1:43:53] Speaker 5: Yeah, So that's that's one thing you've gotta got your
[1:44:00] Speaker 5: make sure it's all melted out. But you know he
[1:44:03] Speaker 5: mentioned using cold water. Okay, let's take it one step
[1:44:07] Speaker 5: further and use ice. It's the coldest water you can get, right.
[1:44:14] Speaker 5: I think there's some other cool stuff we could add,
[1:44:16] Speaker 5: mushroom powder, citrus fiber, mushroom powder. So mushroom powder will,
[1:44:23] Speaker 5: according my sophisticated research, we'll give a better gail network
[1:44:28] Speaker 5: because what happens with venison is it's a real crumbly
[1:44:34] Speaker 5: gail network. It's gonna want to crumble. If I overcooked
[1:44:38] Speaker 5: my smoke sausage, it gets crumbly, and mushroom powder will
[1:44:43] Speaker 5: help that, and it adds kind of a cool flavor.
[1:44:49] Speaker 5: Citrus fiber is gonna help with emulsion, stability, viscosity, water binding.
[1:44:56] Speaker 5: There's some some all kinds of cool things that that
[1:44:58] Speaker 5: would do. I was trying to maintain, like cure to
[1:45:03] Speaker 5: the roots of what we're trying to accomplish here. Yeah,
[1:45:08] Speaker 5: you know, we could add and I think with Finnis
[1:45:11] Speaker 5: and we may have to add some phosphates to help
[1:45:13] Speaker 5: get the pH down. We talked about that when the deers,
[1:45:18] Speaker 5: especially if it was had lots of lactic acid during death.
[1:45:22] Speaker 5: So you know, if you're my buddy Joe and every
[1:45:26] Speaker 5: deer you shoot runs for three hundred yards, you know
[1:45:29] Speaker 5: they normally drop the style Joe style like.
[1:45:33] Speaker 1: The Neighbors Place. Yeah, long dramatic blood trail.
[1:45:37] Speaker 5: That's right.
[1:45:38] Speaker 1: He likes those emotional Yes.
[1:45:41] Speaker 5: I'm going to use one hundred and thirty grand bullets
[1:45:43] Speaker 5: so it'll run even further. I stick with the one eighty.
[1:45:47] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:45:48] Speaker 5: Anyway, he's gonna give me a grief for that. Yeah,
[1:45:51] Speaker 5: I wanted to die quick. So but but I can
[1:45:54] Speaker 5: use phosphates to get that pH up to help with
[1:45:57] Speaker 5: the extraction process. And I mean you're when you're getting
[1:46:00] Speaker 5: smoked sausage from a butcher, if you're not doing it yourself,
[1:46:05] Speaker 5: there's probably some phosphate in there. There's probably some sodium
[1:46:08] Speaker 5: nitrate in there to get that cool pink color.
[1:46:10] Speaker 1: What form does that phosphate come in when you buy it?
[1:46:12] Speaker 5: Uh? I had it written down, I can't remember off
[1:46:15] Speaker 5: the top of my head.
[1:46:16] Speaker 1: And what what is it? What are they drawing it from?
[1:46:17] Speaker 5: I think it's pyrophosphate. I think it's hexa meta phosphate.
[1:46:24] Speaker 5: You mean, what's the feedstock for it?
[1:46:26] Speaker 1: What is it? What is it at? What is it
[1:46:28] Speaker 1: as the form that like the Earth produces it or whatever?
[1:46:32] Speaker 5: Uh so the the earth produces you know, it's it's
[1:46:39] Speaker 5: mineral form. Right, there's all kinds of I know a
[1:46:45] Speaker 5: little bit about phosphate manufacturer that it's it's it's very
[1:46:48] Speaker 5: energy heavy. Most of it's done outside the US and
[1:46:53] Speaker 5: phosphate furnaces for taking yellow phosphate and making it into
[1:46:58] Speaker 5: products that we use like t sp and all.
[1:47:02] Speaker 1: So it's the same phosphate that would be uh like
[1:47:06] Speaker 1: in fireworks or whatever.
[1:47:07] Speaker 5: Sure, Okay, it's the phosphates phosphate, Yeah, I think I think.
[1:47:12] Speaker 1: Uh, gun powders phosphate.
[1:47:16] Speaker 5: Yep, and or yeah, nitrocellulose and you know stuff and gunpowder.
[1:47:22] Speaker 5: The first company I worked for into the paper industry,
[1:47:25] Speaker 5: it was a company called Hercules. It was known as
[1:47:28] Speaker 5: Hercules Powder Company. You've probably seen the old ads for
[1:47:31] Speaker 5: Hercules Powder Company had a guy with a club and
[1:47:34] Speaker 5: but they made gunpowder out of nitrocellulose they'd get out
[1:47:38] Speaker 5: of tree stumps and eventually that turned into paper chemicals.
[1:47:45] Speaker 5: They were a DuPont child. There's a bunch of them
[1:47:49] Speaker 5: out there, companies that spun off from DuPont.
[1:47:52] Speaker 3: Ye would you you mentioned when we were talking on
[1:47:57] Speaker 3: the phone at it like having as you talked about
[1:47:59] Speaker 3: it earlier, having to supplement with like a wave protein potentially,
[1:48:04] Speaker 3: Is that something that you thought more about that?
[1:48:08] Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think we just got to do
[1:48:10] Speaker 5: the math. Yeah, I mean it's all about that's simple,
[1:48:14] Speaker 5: it's I mean, and that's what all these folks do,
[1:48:17] Speaker 5: is they do the math, like how much lean protein
[1:48:20] Speaker 5: do I have? How much of that is extractable protein?
[1:48:24] Speaker 5: You know, it'll be trial and error, Like you guys
[1:48:26] Speaker 5: come to our food lab and we can trial and
[1:48:29] Speaker 5: error it, right, because I got to know how much
[1:48:32] Speaker 5: of that specific there's there's not venison hot dogs flying
[1:48:36] Speaker 5: off the shelves, right not, They're not everywhere. So we're
[1:48:39] Speaker 5: gonna have to learn about how much of the protein
[1:48:41] Speaker 5: can I extract? And therefore, what's my protein to fat ratio?
[1:48:46] Speaker 5: Because that's the secret sauce, right right, I want to
[1:48:48] Speaker 5: have again. An emulsion is an oil particle that's surrounded
[1:48:55] Speaker 5: with some sort of stabilizer, and the stabilizer in a
[1:48:58] Speaker 5: hot dog emulsion is meat protein m H, and basically
[1:49:04] Speaker 5: that keeps the oil particles repelling each other. There's some
[1:49:07] Speaker 5: other cool stuff we can do, like partially denaturing. It
[1:49:11] Speaker 5: allows the protein to unfold. It gets a hydrophilic and
[1:49:16] Speaker 5: a hydrophobic tail. So hydrophilic loves water, so it points
[1:49:21] Speaker 5: away from the fat. Hydrophobic loves oil, so it's gonna
[1:49:26] Speaker 5: point in towards the fat, and it makes a more
[1:49:27] Speaker 5: stable emulsion. Really. Yeah, there's you can go deep and hot.
[1:49:33] Speaker 4: When people say hot dogs are low brow, it's high brow.
[1:49:36] Speaker 5: Man. There's a lot of science. I mean that. Yeah,
[1:49:40] Speaker 5: I mean so, like one of our one of our
[1:49:43] Speaker 5: sales people has a meat science degree. So it's it's
[1:49:49] Speaker 5: uh some serious stuff.
[1:49:52] Speaker 2: Okay, on that on that dog there that you're working
[1:49:54] Speaker 2: up the venison dog. Tell me the part where we
[1:49:56] Speaker 2: start flavoring it, like the seasoning.
[1:50:02] Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I so, the the traditional frankfurter flavors
[1:50:06] Speaker 5: we talked about them. It's nutmeg, coriander, some of those.
[1:50:10] Speaker 5: The other ones are kind of your standard seasonings that
[1:50:13] Speaker 5: as wild game cooks, we put in a lot of
[1:50:15] Speaker 5: stuff like onion salt, onion powder, garlic, those those types
[1:50:23] Speaker 5: of flavors. You know, it all depends on what you want.
[1:50:26] Speaker 5: There's there's black pepper. Yeah, it's what are you shooting for? You?
[1:50:35] Speaker 2: So like those boys at Oscar Meyer, they have their
[1:50:38] Speaker 2: own seasoning blend m and no one knows.
[1:50:41] Speaker 5: I don't know it. I wouldn't want to know it.
[1:50:47] Speaker 5: Then they'd have to kill me. That's right.
[1:50:52] Speaker 1: I want so bad. She's not writing me bad. Yeah,
[1:50:56] Speaker 1: wife made these cookies that it's like it looks like
[1:51:00] Speaker 1: a giant sausage, but it's a cookie. When you slice it,
[1:51:03] Speaker 1: it's like you're slice and more to Deella.
[1:51:05] Speaker 5: And it's got the white well, it's probably the white chucolate.
[1:51:08] Speaker 1: White everything in there. Dude, you would think like from
[1:51:11] Speaker 1: across the room, you'd swear you're looking at it sliced
[1:51:13] Speaker 1: up more to Della sausage. But those cookies.
[1:51:16] Speaker 2: Kids didn't like them. But I was trying to get
[1:51:19] Speaker 2: her to send me a picture of it.
[1:51:20] Speaker 5: But they didn't like the flavor. They didn't like the presentation.
[1:51:24] Speaker 2: No, they didn't care for the cookie. They didn't get
[1:51:26] Speaker 2: the joke. They didn't get the joke. Joke was lost
[1:51:28] Speaker 2: on them. They were just rating it as a cookie,
[1:51:30] Speaker 2: and as a cookie, they thought it scored low.
[1:51:35] Speaker 5: Did you used to have olive loaf you're banging around.
[1:51:40] Speaker 5: That's another one of those. Probably fits in the emulsion category.
[1:51:43] Speaker 1: You know what my old man was big into is
[1:51:45] Speaker 1: uh And this is definitely an emulsion. Is My old
[1:51:48] Speaker 1: man was big and liver Worst. Yeah, he'd buy I
[1:51:52] Speaker 1: believe he'd buy oscar Meyer Liverworst that had the yellow
[1:51:56] Speaker 1: wrap on it, right.
[1:51:58] Speaker 5: Had the plastics on it.
[1:52:00] Speaker 1: Gaming plastic yellow rap. You get mad if you got
[1:52:02] Speaker 1: into it. That was his sand O man, that onion
[1:52:06] Speaker 1: on Rye bread.
[1:52:09] Speaker 5: And there's one company that I'll mention. I said, I
[1:52:11] Speaker 5: wasn't going to come in and mention any brands, but
[1:52:13] Speaker 5: I'm gonna mention it because it intrigues me and I
[1:52:15] Speaker 5: want to try it really bad. And I wonder what
[1:52:19] Speaker 5: took so long? But my social media has been covered
[1:52:23] Speaker 5: up with spam hot dogs. So so Spam's coming in
[1:52:27] Speaker 5: a hormlles coming out with a spam hot dog. Interesting
[1:52:30] Speaker 5: and I gotta try that. That sounds pretty cool, real curious.
[1:52:36] Speaker 5: Yeah right?
[1:52:42] Speaker 1: That it?
[1:52:43] Speaker 5: What else?
[1:52:44] Speaker 2: Well, you're gonna when someone tries to walk someone through
[1:52:47] Speaker 2: the smoking process.
[1:52:49] Speaker 5: Yeah, so I think with Venison, we're gonna have to
[1:52:54] Speaker 5: take the smoking process very slow because that DSc card
[1:52:59] Speaker 5: that I talk about, we want to baby it through
[1:53:02] Speaker 5: that gel network formation.
[1:53:06] Speaker 1: By slow, you mean lower temp, low to or longer.
[1:53:10] Speaker 5: I probably want to get the humidity up, so you
[1:53:11] Speaker 5: know how you put an oil right, sorry, an oil,
[1:53:13] Speaker 5: a water pan and your smoker. I'd probably do that
[1:53:16] Speaker 5: for this, and i'd hang them in like a vertical
[1:53:20] Speaker 5: you know whatever, electric smoker or charcoal.
[1:53:23] Speaker 2: Smoke ballpark it like what temp and how long? Because
[1:53:26] Speaker 2: you're taking a raw hot This hot dog has not
[1:53:29] Speaker 2: been cooked. You're hanging a raw hot dog. It's in
[1:53:31] Speaker 2: a smoker. How long and how hot?
[1:53:33] Speaker 5: I'd start at one twenty okay, I'd probably increase it
[1:53:39] Speaker 5: ten degrees over a period of time. And you know
[1:53:44] Speaker 5: I'm talking hours potentially. I mean, when a hot dog's
[1:53:47] Speaker 5: made in a hot dog plant, it's not hours. It's
[1:53:50] Speaker 5: a shorter period of time. But you've got to get
[1:53:53] Speaker 5: to that one fifty five one sixty. With chicken, it's
[1:53:56] Speaker 5: one sixty five. There obviously the safety points that you
[1:53:59] Speaker 5: don't cook too, but I would baby it through those
[1:54:03] Speaker 5: early stages until that gel starts to set up. And
[1:54:07] Speaker 5: you know, I think we've been talking about the science
[1:54:09] Speaker 5: and using words like emulsions, protein, gel network, and it
[1:54:15] Speaker 5: feels like again that I'm making food in a petrie jar.
[1:54:18] Speaker 5: But this is all natural stuff. We learned from the
[1:54:21] Speaker 5: natural world on how to how to make this make
[1:54:24] Speaker 5: the materials. Yea, and yeah, I mean I'm convinced that
[1:54:29] Speaker 5: the primary reason of venison hot dog. I think everything
[1:54:32] Speaker 5: that's on the market as a venison dog would be
[1:54:35] Speaker 5: pretty close to sausage and not close to a Frankfurter.
[1:54:40] Speaker 5: And that's because that protein extraction is so hard. We
[1:54:44] Speaker 5: just have to to baby it, keep it cool, and
[1:54:47] Speaker 5: then the smoking start at one twenty. Work your way
[1:54:51] Speaker 5: up until you got a dog. You know, I probably
[1:54:53] Speaker 5: have one wiener that would be sacrificial. He'd be the
[1:54:56] Speaker 5: one i'd be checking temperature on.
[1:54:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting, you said that's why venison dogs. What
[1:55:04] Speaker 2: you're just telling me about venison dogs on the market.
[1:55:06] Speaker 2: Have you ever seen the movie French Dispatch.
[1:55:08] Speaker 5: No, Okay, there's a.
[1:55:09] Speaker 1: Dude in this movie.
[1:55:10] Speaker 2: He's like, he's an art dealer. Yeah, this ties into
[1:55:13] Speaker 2: Hodd dogs. He's an art dealer and he's dealing in
[1:55:16] Speaker 2: an abstract art. He says, the only way you can
[1:55:19] Speaker 2: tell if abstracts art is good is you got to
[1:55:23] Speaker 2: ask the artist to do you a regular painting.
[1:55:27] Speaker 1: So I'll ask him to do me a bird. If
[1:55:30] Speaker 1: he can do a great bird, then you know he's
[1:55:33] Speaker 1: doing abstract because he chooses to if he can't do
[1:55:36] Speaker 1: a great bird, he's doing abstract because he's not talented.
[1:55:39] Speaker 2: Enough to do regular art. So with the venison dog thing,
[1:55:45] Speaker 2: when people are going it's just interesting. When people are
[1:55:47] Speaker 2: getting clever with these venison dogs, they might be abstract
[1:55:53] Speaker 2: artists who can't.
[1:55:54] Speaker 1: Do a bird.
[1:55:57] Speaker 5: Right, good point.
[1:55:58] Speaker 1: So they're like they're acting like they're trying to elevate
[1:56:00] Speaker 1: the game, but it's like, no, you're not elevating the game.
[1:56:03] Speaker 1: You can't do a roller dog. That's why you're doing right.
[1:56:12] Speaker 1: We need to do a bird, I know.
[1:56:14] Speaker 2: So I would go to a fancy dog guy, a
[1:56:17] Speaker 2: fancy roller dog or a fancy hot dog guy and
[1:56:20] Speaker 2: do the same test, like, okay, okay, if your hot
[1:56:22] Speaker 2: dogs so great, make me.
[1:56:23] Speaker 5: A roller dog, make me a roller dog out of venice.
[1:56:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you can do that, then I'll believe
[1:56:29] Speaker 1: you that your dog is great. But if you can't
[1:56:30] Speaker 1: do it, you can't do a bird. That's why you're
[1:56:34] Speaker 1: doing abstract.
[1:56:35] Speaker 5: Yeah, And that was that was one of the questions
[1:56:37] Speaker 5: that that Karen asked me during the prethink. She said, well,
[1:56:41] Speaker 5: when you make when you make hot dogs at home,
[1:56:45] Speaker 5: and yeah, it's much easier to go to the store
[1:56:49] Speaker 5: and buy a hot dog for five bucks a pack
[1:56:52] Speaker 5: than to make hot dogs at home, Like you're kind.
[1:56:54] Speaker 1: Of yeah, that's a weird deal, right, It's.
[1:56:57] Speaker 5: A really weird deal. Like, am I gonna take a
[1:57:02] Speaker 5: whole animal? I mean, granted, in Alabama, I think I
[1:57:05] Speaker 5: did the math on it. I can kill two hundred
[1:57:08] Speaker 5: and three deer a year, so the state. So we've
[1:57:17] Speaker 5: got they're more deer in Alabama than there are alligators
[1:57:21] Speaker 5: in Florida. There's tons of them. They're just not the
[1:57:24] Speaker 5: gigantic ones that y'all have here. But am I gonna
[1:57:28] Speaker 5: take a deer and just kind of commit to making
[1:57:31] Speaker 5: some dang hot dogs out of this animal?
[1:57:35] Speaker 1: And he pointed that out, Yeah, Cal made them, And
[1:57:39] Speaker 1: he pointed out He's like, Okay, let's say you do
[1:57:42] Speaker 1: get real good and you make a whole bunch of
[1:57:47] Speaker 1: gas station hot dogs out of deer meat. Then what
[1:57:50] Speaker 1: do you got A very valid point because I want
[1:57:56] Speaker 1: to I don't need thou If there was ever you're
[1:58:01] Speaker 1: gonna do this to make too hot dogs, if there was.
[1:58:03] Speaker 4: Ever a year to do it. It's the two hundred
[1:58:05] Speaker 4: and fiftieth anniversary of this fine nation.
[1:58:07] Speaker 1: That's a good point, man. How better to commemorate, How
[1:58:10] Speaker 1: better to commemorate.
[1:58:11] Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm fully expecting this year to be a bang
[1:58:15] Speaker 5: up year for the dog general.
[1:58:18] Speaker 1: Could be a big dog here in general.
[1:58:20] Speaker 5: I think it's gonna be a big dog.
[1:58:21] Speaker 4: Conditions are right now.
[1:58:23] Speaker 1: I just had a couple of I had a couple
[1:58:26] Speaker 1: on Saturday. Man, they were delicious.
[1:58:28] Speaker 5: That's my Yeah, that's my go to deer camp, like
[1:58:33] Speaker 5: like lunches is hot dogs.
[1:58:35] Speaker 1: I was telling my kids. I was like, man, I
[1:58:36] Speaker 1: don't think you're supposed to put ketchup behind those technically,
[1:58:39] Speaker 1: you know, they don't put ketch up on them.
[1:58:41] Speaker 5: I got a problem with that.
[1:58:42] Speaker 1: You put ketch up on them? Yeah, they didn't want
[1:58:46] Speaker 1: to hear about that.
[1:58:47] Speaker 5: Yeah. My wife puts mayonnaise on hers and I got
[1:58:49] Speaker 5: a major problem with that.
[1:58:50] Speaker 2: I was observing their day to my buddy when I
[1:58:54] Speaker 2: was eating those dogs. You know when you get those like,
[1:58:56] Speaker 2: let's say you're at a event. You're at like a
[1:58:58] Speaker 2: concession stand, right, give you a dog and it's on that.
[1:59:01] Speaker 4: Little coffee filter type tray thing.
[1:59:04] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a little pay like a waxed kind
[1:59:08] Speaker 2: of tray. So you get you get your dog at
[1:59:11] Speaker 2: the counter and you settle up, and then they somewhere
[1:59:14] Speaker 2: nearby they got like the condiment station and maybe the
[1:59:18] Speaker 2: dog's in a foil rap or two could be okay,
[1:59:21] Speaker 2: So you.
[1:59:22] Speaker 1: Get it out of there. You go over to the
[1:59:23] Speaker 1: condiment deal and you start applying everything. There is no chance,
[1:59:30] Speaker 1: like you cannot do it. That that that those condiments,
[1:59:35] Speaker 1: that that when you're sitting there on your bed on
[1:59:37] Speaker 1: the the bleacher, Yeah, you're sitting there on the bleacher.
[1:59:41] Speaker 1: There is no chance that you're not gonna have ketch
[1:59:44] Speaker 1: up mustard on your hands and on your clothes. It
[1:59:48] Speaker 1: like it can't happen.
[1:59:50] Speaker 2: I was just observing this on Saturday to somebody in
[1:59:55] Speaker 2: your car. You get out of the gas station, you
[1:59:57] Speaker 2: get in your car, there is gonna be Yeah, even
[2:00:01] Speaker 2: if you skip the condiment table and just took the
[2:00:04] Speaker 2: dog and the raw dogged it.
[2:00:06] Speaker 1: I swear you're gonna walk out your car and there's
[2:00:08] Speaker 1: gonna be ketchup on you. Yeah, and you don't go
[2:00:09] Speaker 1: near the ketchup.
[2:00:10] Speaker 4: That's how you know you had a good time.
[2:00:12] Speaker 5: That's right.
[2:00:13] Speaker 3: Half of Sydney's phone camera roll is just images of
[2:00:16] Speaker 3: me with mustard. Somewhere it shouldn't have been.
[2:00:19] Speaker 5: Well, I've been known to to your ribs in the
[2:00:22] Speaker 5: car and that's a similar yeah, a similar problem. Real
[2:00:26] Speaker 5: messy driving food.
[2:00:30] Speaker 1: Ribs on the road. You know what boot Ann is. Yeah,
[2:00:33] Speaker 1: what I had an idea with boot Ann would be,
[2:00:37] Speaker 1: I'll say about you'd get a receptacle of hot sauce
[2:00:40] Speaker 1: up on the top of your car, like where the
[2:00:42] Speaker 1: roll buyer would be or whatever, and you know, hose
[2:00:48] Speaker 1: down through the car.
[2:00:49] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[2:00:50] Speaker 1: So the picture that you're driving, right here's your steering
[2:00:53] Speaker 1: wheel and everything, and right here is a little valve,
[2:00:57] Speaker 1: a squeeze valve. So when you're eating boot Ann, you
[2:01:00] Speaker 1: can you can a little you can you can right
[2:01:04] Speaker 1: out of that reservoir. You just dribble.
[2:01:07] Speaker 4: It's perfect because you only need two hands to do it.
[2:01:10] Speaker 2: Well, that's because you're driving with you.
[2:01:14] Speaker 1: Well, maybe you'd get it such that you could like
[2:01:16] Speaker 1: a foot pedal. Yeah, there's a foot pedal, you know
[2:01:18] Speaker 1: that in Europe.
[2:01:21] Speaker 3: In Europe, at the outside of the hot dog stand
[2:01:23] Speaker 3: they have mustard with a foot pedal. Brilliant, So you
[2:01:27] Speaker 3: can hold a drink and a dog and dress your
[2:01:30] Speaker 3: dog with your foot pedal. At least we're the last,
[2:01:34] Speaker 3: the last hot dogs. Well I noticed it. It was
[2:01:36] Speaker 3: not every Yeah, And I'm standing there looking at it,
[2:01:45] Speaker 3: wondering where I should slap it, like trying to balance
[2:01:48] Speaker 3: my beer on my hand with the dog in my hand.
[2:01:51] Speaker 3: And this woman came up and she's pointing at the ground,
[2:01:53] Speaker 3: and I had no idea what she was. And then
[2:01:56] Speaker 3: and then I saw the pedal, and I thought, my god,
[2:01:59] Speaker 3: they are better than us.
[2:02:00] Speaker 5: Well they stole that from the border potty industry, right,
[2:02:03] Speaker 5: you know, they recycling where they're smart.
[2:02:07] Speaker 4: It's smart.
[2:02:08] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you.
[2:02:08] Speaker 2: People might not be willing to help us out in
[2:02:10] Speaker 2: our current conflict, however, you have a great way of getting.
[2:02:15] Speaker 1: You found a great way to get mustard under my dogs.
[2:02:19] Speaker 2: So if we ever want to do this, So if
[2:02:21] Speaker 2: we want to do our hot dog get, we got
[2:02:23] Speaker 2: to come find you guys all the way in France.
[2:02:26] Speaker 1: That's where the big bad lab.
[2:02:27] Speaker 5: That's where the lab is. Yeah, obviously there are tons
[2:02:33] Speaker 5: of boutique customers here in the US that had the
[2:02:36] Speaker 5: same equipment, but you don't have to get you don't
[2:02:38] Speaker 5: have the the free reign of a lab to experiment
[2:02:42] Speaker 5: and all they've got.
[2:02:44] Speaker 1: To let you in there with us, because you've got
[2:02:45] Speaker 1: to be there with us when we do these dogs.
[2:02:47] Speaker 5: That's right. Who knows you're probably gonna get a bunch
[2:02:52] Speaker 5: of requests.
[2:02:54] Speaker 2: Well, it'd be tough far for them because they'd have
[2:02:57] Speaker 2: to be able to now write in and be like
[2:02:59] Speaker 2: that guy.
[2:03:00] Speaker 5: Was a hat.
[2:03:01] Speaker 1: That guy's a hat.
[2:03:02] Speaker 2: So if a dude, if a big hot dog guy
[2:03:05] Speaker 2: out there can come in and look at your resume
[2:03:10] Speaker 2: pressure and be like, he's no.
[2:03:12] Speaker 1: Hot dog man. I'm a hot dog man.
[2:03:15] Speaker 5: I'm a casing man. I'll say that I'm more of
[2:03:18] Speaker 5: a casing man than a hot dog man. But but
[2:03:21] Speaker 5: you kind of have to you gotta know the process understand.
[2:03:27] Speaker 1: Like, let's say you're an electrical view electric vehicle guy.
[2:03:29] Speaker 1: Someone's like, I'm more of a battery man, yeah than electrical.
[2:03:34] Speaker 1: But I'm like, but that's that's what's so being a
[2:03:39] Speaker 1: casing man, I don't think detracts from you being a
[2:03:41] Speaker 1: hot dog man. It's like the battery guy at an
[2:03:44] Speaker 1: EV place.
[2:03:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're safe until I get an email
[2:03:47] Speaker 3: from the podcast email forwarding thing and it says Oscar
[2:03:51] Speaker 3: at Oscar meyer dot com. That's the only that's the
[2:03:54] Speaker 3: only guy who's going to trump your credentials here.
[2:03:56] Speaker 5: So for the rest of you guys are the one
[2:03:58] Speaker 5: that keep bringing up that brand, that's fine.
[2:04:02] Speaker 1: Well it'll get problem. You know why we keep bringing
[2:04:04] Speaker 1: that band up is to be honest with you, I
[2:04:06] Speaker 1: can't think of another hot dog outfit. Ballpark Nathan Yeah, okay,
[2:04:11] Speaker 1: Nathan's Phil, can you scratch every time we said that?
[2:04:14] Speaker 3: It may or if Nathan himself emails me Nathan and Nathan's,
[2:04:21] Speaker 3: we'll stop.
[2:04:21] Speaker 4: We'll stop mentioning.
[2:04:24] Speaker 5: Yeah, you haven't mentioned one that's not a customer.
[2:04:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, ballpark? Yeah, so ball at Ballpark take that call.
[2:04:35] Speaker 5: Nathan's famous as her sponsors then yeah.
[2:04:38] Speaker 1: I don't get that, man. I don't think that they
[2:04:41] Speaker 1: should do that.
[2:04:44] Speaker 4: It's probably it's probably their best marketing.
[2:04:47] Speaker 1: I don't think that that's good. You know what, you
[2:04:49] Speaker 1: know he's got another bad idea.
[2:04:51] Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's Wintles. You're not a paint man, are you?
[2:04:57] Speaker 1: Okay? Who's that paint outfit there? Sit? Their Their logo
[2:05:02] Speaker 1: is the Earth getting covered up with paint? Sherman Williams.
[2:05:06] Speaker 1: I think it says cover the Earth. I'm not kidding you. Phil,
[2:05:12] Speaker 1: pull that up it says like cover the Earth. Their
[2:05:16] Speaker 1: logo is the planet paint dumping on top of the planet,
[2:05:21] Speaker 1: and the paint is dripping off down around like forty
[2:05:24] Speaker 1: fifth parallel south.
[2:05:27] Speaker 4: I guess I can I can envision it, but I
[2:05:30] Speaker 4: never really put that together.
[2:05:34] Speaker 2: And then Nathan's doing that hot dog eating contest. I
[2:05:37] Speaker 2: think it's bad business.
[2:05:39] Speaker 1: I think people would sell a lot more paint if
[2:05:41] Speaker 1: they got rid of that paint logo.
[2:05:43] Speaker 5: I thought you were going to go into other eating contests.
[2:05:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, this did these guys miss the whole earth Day
[2:05:49] Speaker 1: create like the whole earth Day era? Like, dude, I
[2:05:53] Speaker 1: don't look at that and get all hot for some paint,
[2:05:57] Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying. Imagine if that was
[2:06:00] Speaker 1: like Xon's logo, not a sponsor. Yeah, and that Nathan's
[2:06:08] Speaker 1: hot dog eating contest. I think they should back out
[2:06:10] Speaker 1: of that that. It grosses me out. Man.
[2:06:13] Speaker 5: There's an oyster eating raw oyster eating contest and uh
[2:06:17] Speaker 5: and mobile where where it's volume. So you gotta get
[2:06:24] Speaker 5: your name on the board. And I'm gonna go I'm
[2:06:27] Speaker 5: gonna go dark for a minute. There is the guy
[2:06:29] Speaker 5: that's at the top of the board got sick halfway
[2:06:33] Speaker 5: through us, you'll say, in one of those Lexan deals.
[2:06:39] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well that's kind of sick.
[2:06:41] Speaker 5: They said, all right, you're out. He goes, no, I
[2:06:45] Speaker 5: want to get on the board if I go ahead
[2:06:47] Speaker 5: and eat that, can I can I fire it back up?
[2:06:51] Speaker 5: They said sure, So he re ingested. Oh no, for
[2:06:59] Speaker 5: the soul point of getting his name at the top
[2:07:02] Speaker 5: of the top of the worst some people have there.
[2:07:05] Speaker 4: It's good to have some of your passionate about something
[2:07:07] Speaker 4: they're passionate for.
[2:07:09] Speaker 5: That's tough.
[2:07:10] Speaker 1: You want me to pull the video of that. This
[2:07:14] Speaker 1: is not Phil's phone, man. I appreciate you coming on
[2:07:21] Speaker 1: the show. It I do see.
[2:07:23] Speaker 2: We were we're definitely interested in doing that trip. But
[2:07:28] Speaker 2: like kind of word got.
[2:07:29] Speaker 1: Around the office a little bit and it's generated a
[2:07:31] Speaker 1: handful of eye rolls. Just to be frank, I get
[2:07:34] Speaker 1: it frank, because people were like, oh no, why why
[2:07:42] Speaker 1: And then someone brought up like, would you be doing
[2:07:44] Speaker 1: other things there too? Like, no, just making the hot dogs.
[2:07:50] Speaker 1: I'll look for domestic, little worky things you'd be doing
[2:07:54] Speaker 1: while you're there, and we we're like, no, getting.
[2:07:57] Speaker 4: Seems pretty straightforward.
[2:07:59] Speaker 5: Some bread they do bread? Well, yeah, yeah, I mean
[2:08:05] Speaker 5: getting so bove Is. It was like a short cab
[2:08:11] Speaker 5: ride from Paris. Getting from here to Paris, it's pretty easy.
[2:08:15] Speaker 1: I do have a little easy for another I just
[2:08:17] Speaker 1: realized for another for there's a writing project where I
[2:08:21] Speaker 1: do have to do a little site visit. Yeah, I
[2:08:23] Speaker 1: do have a sprance like, yeah, that's a great point.
[2:08:26] Speaker 1: Who's that? We're good?
[2:08:28] Speaker 5: All right, I just thought of it.
[2:08:29] Speaker 1: It just hit me, Okay, coming on the show.
[2:08:35] Speaker 5: I've enjoyed it.
[2:08:36] Speaker 1: No, that's good man, this I learned.
[2:08:37] Speaker 2: You know what, you know what's going to happen now though,
[2:08:40] Speaker 2: people I hang out with are going to have to
[2:08:42] Speaker 2: endure me when they're eating dogs for me to be like, man, you.
[2:08:46] Speaker 5: Know protein extraction.
[2:08:47] Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're curious.
[2:08:48] Speaker 1: About what you're eating there, I'll be happy.
[2:08:50] Speaker 3: I don't remember what day we spoke, but Sydney had
[2:08:53] Speaker 3: like a bad first forty five minutes when she got
[2:08:55] Speaker 3: home from work. It's just like you know this part
[2:08:58] Speaker 3: of the Hot Talk where the line is no I
[2:09:01] Speaker 3: don't have.
[2:09:04] Speaker 5: That was the key, just to make it one pound
[2:09:07] Speaker 5: packs easy for the consumer.
[2:09:10] Speaker 1: Love it. Thank you, John, thank you.
[2:09:12] Speaker 5: Man enjoyed it. Thank you.

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