# Ep. 725: Dispatches from Africa - Steve's in Tanzania!

An episode of [The MeatEater Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/960902903), 3 Jul 2025, 29 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/63aba8bc-2dc8-4f89-807a-ae280065a7cd/24237d82-3c50-4a49-99e2-b30e01603b19/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=3892b9a1-a960-4f9e-bee7-ae280065a7db

Steven Rinella talks with Professional Hunter Morgan Potter of Robin Hurt Safaris on Day 1 in the Luganzo Tongwe Game Reserve. Topics Discussed: Tanzania's land management system; how regulated hunting in Game Reserves directly contributes to wildlife conservation and local communities; pursuing Cape Buffalo bulls; and more. Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:28] Speaker 1: All right, guys, we're coming at you virtually live like
[0:31] Speaker 1: damn near live from Tanzania and Africa. And if you
[0:36] Speaker 1: listen to the show, you heard me complain about when
[0:38] Speaker 1: we have to sit on episodes for various stupid reasons
[0:40] Speaker 1: that I can't explain and then release them later. These
[0:43] Speaker 1: were gonna just release them as they happen. As we're
[0:46] Speaker 1: in in Africa hunting with Morgan Potter from Robin Hurt Safaris,
[0:51] Speaker 1: and so we're gonna do little updates, nothing major to
[0:55] Speaker 1: update yet. But what we are gonna do is kind
[0:57] Speaker 1: of lay the set the scene of where we're at
[1:01] Speaker 1: and where we're not at, and there's a thing and
[1:02] Speaker 1: when when. If you study the writing process, one of
[1:05] Speaker 1: the things they'll teach you is they'll teach you to
[1:07] Speaker 1: go gross too close, meaning start with a wide view
[1:11] Speaker 1: and narrow in. So start us with a wide view.
[1:14] Speaker 1: We're in Tanzania. What does that mean when you're looking
[1:18] Speaker 1: at the African continent.
[1:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, so Tanzania is on on the east coast, below Kenya,
[1:23] Speaker 2: above Mozambique.
[1:25] Speaker 1: The Middle East is off to the northwest.
[1:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, north northeast, Yeah, northeast. And then yeah, so you've
[1:34] Speaker 2: got Kenya to the north, Mozambique to the south, and
[1:37] Speaker 2: then yeah, I mean Tanzania sh has borders with a
[1:40] Speaker 2: bunch of countries Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, and where else is
[1:45] Speaker 2: Zambia Okay.
[1:46] Speaker 1: And one of the things that one of the most
[1:48] Speaker 1: important things that I think people should understand is it
[1:52] Speaker 1: has part of the thing that every American has heard of,
[1:55] Speaker 1: including me. It has part of the SERENGETI Yes, yeah,
[1:58] Speaker 1: it's got all of the Serengetti, which is contiguous with
[2:02] Speaker 1: the Masai Mara, which is Kenya's component, the border being
[2:06] Speaker 1: the Mara River. So yeah, the serengetis, like we were
[2:09] Speaker 1: talking about it to you, like quintessential. You get a
[2:12] Speaker 1: postcard from Africa, there's a picture of a flat top
[2:15] Speaker 1: of Kacia on there, lions sleeping underneath of it, big
[2:18] Speaker 1: grassland in the background. Not where we are right now, No,
[2:22] Speaker 1: not where we're at. And I keep I remarked you
[2:26] Speaker 1: ten times over the last two days that having been
[2:29] Speaker 1: like raised on those wildlife documentaries I and those images
[2:34] Speaker 1: that are taken in that ecosystem, I'm going to get
[2:40] Speaker 1: to how different this is like having been raised on that,
[2:43] Speaker 1: Like that's sort of an expectation you wound up having
[2:45] Speaker 1: where I sort of felt like, other than the congo, right,
[2:49] Speaker 1: other than the jungle, I picture like that, that's what
[2:52] Speaker 1: Africa looks like, Yeah, the flat top of cass and
[2:55] Speaker 1: the open grasslands yep. And it was cool because prior
[2:59] Speaker 1: to us hunting, we got to go look at some
[3:01] Speaker 1: of that stuff. Yeah, and it is like like you
[3:04] Speaker 1: can see forever there's like drafts hanging out, zebra's wandering by.
[3:10] Speaker 1: And even when I knew we were going to come hunt,
[3:13] Speaker 1: no western, I had no idea that was going to
[3:18] Speaker 1: be like this. Yeah, right, Like if you showed me
[3:21] Speaker 1: a picture where we're at right now, never in a
[3:23] Speaker 1: million years, I guess that must be Africa.
[3:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, for sure. And I bet even even if
[3:30] Speaker 2: you looked at like regular photo tourism, the number of
[3:35] Speaker 2: people that would get to experience this particular type of
[3:38] Speaker 2: habitat an environment like this part of Africa would be
[3:41] Speaker 2: just a vanishingly small number, like five percent or less.
[3:45] Speaker 2: You know, the bulk of tourism is centered around that
[3:49] Speaker 2: northern circuit, so north of Arusha, they're into the Serengeti
[3:53] Speaker 2: and Goa Goa crater where we were like Natron, Trengeary,
[3:56] Speaker 2: these sort of areas that, yeah, they do. They have
[3:58] Speaker 2: that very quintessential like Africa, look particularly East Africa.
[4:02] Speaker 1: And what's great about it that stuff is this really
[4:05] Speaker 1: good wild they're viewing because you can see so far.
[4:07] Speaker 2: Yep, you can see a long way and then being
[4:10] Speaker 2: where it is with all that kind of volcanic activity
[4:13] Speaker 2: in that part of the rift, the soil is very
[4:16] Speaker 2: rich and the rainfall is quite consistent. So the game
[4:19] Speaker 2: density there on those short grass plains is very high
[4:23] Speaker 2: in comparison to here, where we've got comparatively porous soils,
[4:26] Speaker 2: a lot sandier soil, a lot rockier soil. And yeah,
[4:31] Speaker 2: it's sort of a different rainfall pattern to consistent rain
[4:34] Speaker 2: here too, but it's a different kind of pattern to there,
[4:38] Speaker 2: and as a consequence, the game densities are just very
[4:40] Speaker 2: different and the species are very different. You know a
[4:44] Speaker 2: lot of that stuff. So those desert adapted species we
[4:46] Speaker 2: talked about the Geranook obviously, Grant's gazelle, Thompson's gazelle, you know,
[4:51] Speaker 2: those kind of species that are very water independent and
[4:54] Speaker 2: some of them can go pretty much indefinitely on metabolic water.
[4:58] Speaker 2: Everything out here is a little thirstier, including the species
[5:01] Speaker 2: of plants.
[5:02] Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is this is like, I don't want
[5:04] Speaker 1: people to get the idea that this is monotonous. It's
[5:06] Speaker 1: anything but monotonous. No, And I'll have you walk through
[5:09] Speaker 1: the different little habitat types that are here. But what
[5:12] Speaker 1: do you call this running now?
[5:13] Speaker 2: So what we're in now is called meboo woodland. Yeah,
[5:17] Speaker 2: it's like a woods.
[5:18] Speaker 1: And when I keep remarking to Morgan, is like growing
[5:22] Speaker 1: up in western Michigan when you get up in the
[5:24] Speaker 1: upper sandy soils and you're just out in the woods
[5:27] Speaker 1: and you got like like scrubby little oaks and sassafras.
[5:30] Speaker 1: It's very reminiscent of that in terms of the density
[5:34] Speaker 1: of the trees, the height of the trees. But then
[5:37] Speaker 1: you go over that way I think it's that way yep,
[5:39] Speaker 1: and you enter this this valley of palms eight foot
[5:45] Speaker 1: high grass. And I was joking earlier like from someone
[5:47] Speaker 1: the just just to go to off movie references and
[5:50] Speaker 1: documentary references, you feel like you're in a Vietnam movie. Yeah, yeah,
[5:54] Speaker 1: it's and that stuff. And then all of a sudden you
[5:56] Speaker 1: roll over the hill and you're like, dude, I'm in Michigan. Yeah, yeah, No,
[6:00] Speaker 1: it's very different stuff going on.
[6:02] Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. The diversity here is one of the special
[6:05] Speaker 2: things about this concession. It's got with the river there,
[6:08] Speaker 2: it's got those kind of yeah, that river, irond habitat,
[6:11] Speaker 2: those floodplains and crocodiles, crocodile hippos, and then the real
[6:15] Speaker 2: special thing that you've got there is that papyrus swamp,
[6:18] Speaker 2: which is this is a massive tract of intact papyrus swamp.
[6:21] Speaker 2: And then you've got the East African sitatunga living in there,
[6:24] Speaker 2: which is a very specially adapted antelope to be able
[6:27] Speaker 2: to survive basically its whole life in papyrus swamps.
[6:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think too that that is kind of cool,
[6:33] Speaker 1: a little bit unexpected is in certain areas around here,
[6:37] Speaker 1: it's like a little bit of a working landscape. Like
[6:39] Speaker 1: there's there's commercial fishermen they'll use dog out canoes fishing
[6:44] Speaker 1: someone that stuff. Yep, for a couple more weeks. There's
[6:47] Speaker 1: guys out collecting wild honey, yep. That'll be out here
[6:50] Speaker 1: for a couple more weeks. I mean, like very widely dispersed.
[6:53] Speaker 1: But you see, it's not like just fantasy land like
[6:58] Speaker 1: you see, like ways in which people use the landscape
[7:01] Speaker 1: to get their living and I know that brings up
[7:03] Speaker 1: a lot of complications around poaching and other things, but
[7:06] Speaker 1: it's like it's inhabited in a way, very spirally, but
[7:09] Speaker 1: it's inhabited.
[7:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah. There's no permanent settlement in here.
[7:13] Speaker 2: But there are people that have permits, you know, as
[7:16] Speaker 2: you saw today when we ran into the honey guys, right,
[7:18] Speaker 2: we stopped and checked their permits, make sure their paperwork's
[7:21] Speaker 2: all square. And we don't have a problem with that,
[7:24] Speaker 2: you know. Where about these game reserves being a livelihood
[7:28] Speaker 2: generator for local communities, obviously there's the benefits that they
[7:31] Speaker 2: get from some revenue retention from hunting and our operations,
[7:35] Speaker 2: but we don't want to keep people out of here entirely.
[7:39] Speaker 2: We just it has to be controlled and it has
[7:40] Speaker 2: to be managed so that fishery is very carefully controlled.
[7:43] Speaker 2: Us in conjunction with Tanzania Wildlife Management Authority, we're constantly
[7:48] Speaker 2: making sure that that fishing is being done the right way,
[7:51] Speaker 2: you know, not illegal nets being used, other illegal methods
[7:56] Speaker 2: you know, such as netting off the whole river or
[7:59] Speaker 2: coming into the game waters themselves, and that's really important
[8:02] Speaker 2: to make sure those fish have a sort of safe
[8:05] Speaker 2: spawning ground and a bit of a reservoir so they
[8:07] Speaker 2: can Then those waters that are getting fished commercially can
[8:10] Speaker 2: be kind of re stopped by those game reserve waters.
[8:13] Speaker 2: So it's beneficial to the fishermen to adhere to those
[8:15] Speaker 2: rules too. And then yeah, the honey hunters, it's the
[8:18] Speaker 2: same thing. As long as they're not interfering with our
[8:20] Speaker 2: operations and as long as they're not you know, delving
[8:23] Speaker 2: into other unlawful activities while they're here. We're very tolerant
[8:27] Speaker 2: of that and we want to support those livelihoods and
[8:30] Speaker 2: see people do well.
[8:31] Speaker 1: There's maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like there's like
[8:33] Speaker 1: sort of like three types of types of land management here,
[8:38] Speaker 1: which isn't totally dissimilar to something you'd find in the
[8:40] Speaker 1: US where you have national park land right that doesn't
[8:46] Speaker 1: have any of those activities, aren't it right? Zero, It's
[8:49] Speaker 1: just like it's just like photo tourism. We're near a
[8:52] Speaker 1: national park in Rofe Harmony Acres or how many square
[8:57] Speaker 1: miles of the national park that's near here.
[8:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a pretty big one. I'd say it's some
[9:00] Speaker 2: in that thousand square mile kind of range.
[9:02] Speaker 1: And Morgan mentioned me and we are here. The last
[9:06] Speaker 1: year the thousand square mile national park, which is what's
[9:09] Speaker 1: a colon.
[9:10] Speaker 2: It's called Augalla National Park, had fourteen visitors.
[9:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you're looking for a very quiet national park,
[9:19] Speaker 1: yeah yeah, I mean yeah again, like I'll shield for
[9:22] Speaker 1: a Galla National Park all day.
[9:24] Speaker 2: People should make a visit. It'd be great, But it
[9:28] Speaker 2: shows here it's so remote. Yeah, it's so remote. And
[9:30] Speaker 2: again for your average tourist who's not who wants to
[9:34] Speaker 2: see the big five right and a million world to
[9:37] Speaker 2: beast in a day, this isn't the place to come.
[9:40] Speaker 2: And I see that. You know, even us driving around
[9:43] Speaker 2: today and it's been a bit of a you know,
[9:46] Speaker 2: we've been pretty focused on going places where buffalo hangout today.
[9:50] Speaker 2: You know, we haven't been going to a lot of
[9:52] Speaker 2: areas where you'll find a big diversity of species. So
[9:54] Speaker 2: that's why it's kind of been a quiet day in
[9:56] Speaker 2: that sense. But I mean you can have days like
[9:58] Speaker 2: this where you know, the myombo's just a bit stare all.
[10:01] Speaker 1: Sometimes, well, a thing I should clarify, and I've told
[10:04] Speaker 1: you this's like a thing that drew me to wanting
[10:07] Speaker 1: that drew me to wanting to hunt Kate Buffalo is it.
[10:11] Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing you like get in there
[10:12] Speaker 1: and shake hands with.
[10:13] Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
[10:14] Speaker 1: I mean like you get in that thick stuff with
[10:16] Speaker 1: it and they're like they're dangerous, and it's just like
[10:18] Speaker 1: that was exciting to me. It's like being in there,
[10:20] Speaker 1: so I don't mind the thickness. It's just it's just
[10:22] Speaker 1: different than what I saw in the other part. But
[10:25] Speaker 1: to get back to this land management thing, so you
[10:26] Speaker 1: have a national park, which is kind of like like
[10:28] Speaker 1: for Americans a picture like picture a national park in
[10:31] Speaker 1: the US, very similar model, very similar model. What what
[10:35] Speaker 1: is very different would be the game? Would it like
[10:40] Speaker 1: a concession or wildlife refuge? Like I can't think maybe
[10:44] Speaker 1: you can't. I can't think of a way to explain
[10:46] Speaker 1: that with an American analogy.
[10:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, it there's nothing in the US that would be
[10:53] Speaker 2: like similar that would be Yeah, that would be a
[10:55] Speaker 2: good kind of analog for this. It's it's something that
[10:59] Speaker 2: it goes weya. So we're in a's and within that
[11:02] Speaker 2: category there's sort of subcategories. Right, So where we were
[11:05] Speaker 2: in mass Island is called a game controlled area, so
[11:08] Speaker 2: that's got looser rules around land use. There can be
[11:11] Speaker 2: some permanent settlement there, there can be some seasonal sort
[11:14] Speaker 2: of settlement. There can be livestock grazing, there can be
[11:18] Speaker 2: a few other activities that would not be acceptable here
[11:21] Speaker 2: given that this is a game reserve. And then you've
[11:23] Speaker 2: got a couple of below game controlled area. You've got
[11:26] Speaker 2: a couple of other tiers too that are even more
[11:28] Speaker 2: kind of loose as far as what's allowed in their
[11:31] Speaker 2: land use wise from local people. But we're very lucky
[11:35] Speaker 2: that this area has been designated a game reserve by
[11:37] Speaker 2: the Tanzanian government. Uganzo yeap Luganzo Tonguare Game Reserve is
[11:41] Speaker 2: the full name of it. And it's Yeah, it's a
[11:44] Speaker 2: magnificent piece of ground. This is the size of Yellowstone
[11:47] Speaker 2: National Part. Yeah, roughly the same size. Yeah, it's a
[11:50] Speaker 2: it's a huge chunk of ground. And yeah, just having
[11:53] Speaker 2: that legal protection from the government gives us the ability
[11:56] Speaker 2: to really make sure that those more destructive form of
[12:00] Speaker 2: land use, like livestock grazing, which isn't in of itself
[12:03] Speaker 2: inherently destructive necessarily, it's just that here where there's such
[12:08] Speaker 2: a big predator population that inevitably leads to conflict. That
[12:11] Speaker 2: can and that can be you know, the predators can
[12:14] Speaker 2: come off badly from that. You know, cutting trees is
[12:17] Speaker 2: something we don't want to see here. This is a
[12:19] Speaker 2: very important piece of intact woodland that's really supporting a
[12:23] Speaker 2: lot of different species in the myombo and the kind
[12:26] Speaker 2: of myombo edges. So we want to see that intact.
[12:31] Speaker 1: Just a touch on that for a minute. For people
[12:33] Speaker 1: who's like, here you have elephant draft zebra, I mean
[12:38] Speaker 1: like here, yeah, oh yeah, if you sat here, you
[12:40] Speaker 1: could watch go buy elephant draft zebra, kudu, leopards.
[12:46] Speaker 2: Lions, lions, eland sable roane, harder, beast, topi. I mean,
[12:53] Speaker 2: there's a huge variety of species in here.
[12:55] Speaker 1: And for how big it is, you guys take so like,
[12:59] Speaker 1: for how big it is, you guys kill such a
[13:01] Speaker 1: small amount of animals that I feel like it's like
[13:03] Speaker 1: it's like from a management perspective, it's effectively equivalent to
[13:06] Speaker 1: a park. Yeah, it's like it's not like it's you know,
[13:10] Speaker 1: it's like very selective. Like you're explaining me here, you
[13:15] Speaker 1: guys are only allowed to kill male spatimens of anything
[13:17] Speaker 1: right exactly, you know, and as we're like really small
[13:20] Speaker 1: numbers like a few of these, a few of those.
[13:22] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a handful of species and we've we've managed
[13:26] Speaker 2: it that way deliberately. One of the great things about
[13:29] Speaker 2: the Tanzanian system is we get a quota that's based
[13:32] Speaker 2: on research. So right now we're actually working with TAWIRI,
[13:37] Speaker 2: which is the Tanzania Wildlife Research Institute, and some other
[13:41] Speaker 2: sort of outside NGOs to do a study on predators
[13:44] Speaker 2: in this area.
[13:45] Speaker 1: Predators want including ones.
[13:47] Speaker 2: We can't hunt right like wild dogs, for example, which
[13:49] Speaker 2: are entirely protected. So we're trying to get a handle
[13:52] Speaker 2: on how many predators we've got here, which can better
[13:55] Speaker 2: inform our off take. And the great thing is we're
[13:58] Speaker 2: only obligated to utilize four percent of the quota that
[14:01] Speaker 2: we're assigned, and we seldom go over that on any
[14:04] Speaker 2: given So they want you to use forty percent that
[14:07] Speaker 2: were mandated to use forty as they're mandated to pay
[14:10] Speaker 2: for forty percent, So we get it assigned to quota,
[14:12] Speaker 2: but we have to utilize forty percent and we rarely
[14:15] Speaker 2: go right.
[14:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, the land we're on just I keep trying to
[14:23] Speaker 1: make analogies.
[14:23] Speaker 2: To the US.
[14:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, you could wind up thinking of it like like
[14:27] Speaker 1: in a way, you could think of it like national
[14:29] Speaker 1: forest land, meaning we're on land that's owned by the
[14:33] Speaker 1: federal government in Tanzania.
[14:34] Speaker 2: Correct.
[14:35] Speaker 1: The federal government in Tanzania has two objectives like preserve
[14:39] Speaker 1: wildlife correct, right, like create wildlife habitat, preserve wildlife, but
[14:43] Speaker 1: also monetize the landscape. Absolutely, so they're able to monetize
[14:49] Speaker 1: this huge chunk of ground simultaneously preserving wildlife by auctioning
[14:56] Speaker 1: off these blocks. Correct to so far R Company or
[15:00] Speaker 1: however you put like a like a like a hunting
[15:02] Speaker 1: guide an operation. Then they come in and say, okay,
[15:06] Speaker 1: you you operate within this piece of land. Our biologists
[15:09] Speaker 1: will do some sort of assessment of what's there. Yep,
[15:12] Speaker 1: you're allowed this level of take. And then besides that
[15:16] Speaker 1: you besides that, you're paying a fee to utilize the land.
[15:20] Speaker 1: They're then saying every animal that comes off the money
[15:24] Speaker 1: is in our pocket's correct, and it applies like a
[15:27] Speaker 1: big value to the wildlife. And there's something that you
[15:31] Speaker 1: said that kind of like helps me because this is
[15:33] Speaker 1: all very new to me. But there's there's a comment
[15:35] Speaker 1: you made that helps me think about it is I
[15:37] Speaker 1: was I was talking about, like, you guys eat a
[15:38] Speaker 1: lot of game, you know, like every night we eat
[15:40] Speaker 1: game from the stuff you guys clients have gotten. And
[15:43] Speaker 1: I was saying, well, when you guys want something to eat,
[15:47] Speaker 1: can you just go get what you want to eat?
[15:48] Speaker 1: And you're saying, like, at this point it's too valuable. Yeah,
[15:54] Speaker 1: like that stuff those animals are all assigned value by
[15:59] Speaker 1: the gum.
[16:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, it makes no sense for us
[16:03] Speaker 2: to utilize them that way. They're they're far too valuable.
[16:05] Speaker 2: So yeah, that quota we do have and that we
[16:08] Speaker 2: do intend to utilize, we're saving it exclusively for you know,
[16:13] Speaker 2: for our clients.
[16:14] Speaker 1: And that and like the value the animals is that's
[16:17] Speaker 1: something that's set by the government, correct, Yeah, And a
[16:20] Speaker 1: place can op charge or not, but there's what they
[16:23] Speaker 1: expect to see.
[16:24] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, they have their their fixed amount
[16:27] Speaker 2: that they want for each one of those species, which
[16:29] Speaker 2: is great because the trophy fee, you know, to really
[16:32] Speaker 2: like simplify it big broad brush terms, the trophy fee
[16:36] Speaker 2: pays for the conservation. And that's and the beauty of
[16:39] Speaker 2: these areas is out here, you know, as you've seen
[16:43] Speaker 2: driving in here. Really there's a couple of little things,
[16:46] Speaker 2: like there's a bit of mining, there's a bit of
[16:47] Speaker 2: forestry going on in these areas, and there's some kind
[16:50] Speaker 2: of more larger scale agriculture. But in general, the big
[16:54] Speaker 2: competing land use here is subsistence farming, which is so
[16:59] Speaker 2: it's so marginal and so destructive. So for the government
[17:03] Speaker 2: to have the foresight to say this area, if we
[17:06] Speaker 2: protect it is going to be something that generates revenue
[17:09] Speaker 2: not just for central government but for local communities as well,
[17:13] Speaker 2: which can offset some of that need for constant subsistence farming.
[17:17] Speaker 2: But aside from that, it also is something that's like
[17:20] Speaker 2: infinitely renewable. You know, this doesn't aside from our efforts
[17:24] Speaker 2: to preserve the area, which is all kind of baked
[17:27] Speaker 2: in to our costs. You know, it's a cost of
[17:29] Speaker 2: doing business putting in these roads, you know, maintaining the
[17:32] Speaker 2: area so that it's accessible and we can conduct anti poaching,
[17:36] Speaker 2: we can conduct our safaris efficiently. Aside from all that,
[17:39] Speaker 2: the government doesn't need to invest in these areas really,
[17:43] Speaker 2: I mean, they have a budget and they do do
[17:44] Speaker 2: a lot to help support us in protecting the area
[17:47] Speaker 2: and that's kind of something we do together. But in
[17:50] Speaker 2: general it's not a high investment thing, but it's got
[17:54] Speaker 2: a very good return.
[17:56] Speaker 1: You return me to something else trying to do. I
[17:58] Speaker 1: want to talk well anti poaching in our in our
[18:02] Speaker 1: game war that we're hanging out with. Yeah, yeah, but
[18:05] Speaker 1: I wanted I was talking about those three use types.
[18:08] Speaker 1: I was saying, like national park, which would be very
[18:10] Speaker 1: similar to what American would imagine a national park, would
[18:13] Speaker 1: be a concession, which is different than what you'd picture.
[18:17] Speaker 1: And then the third category being like sort of like
[18:21] Speaker 1: an undesignated landscape that and this is gonna be very
[18:26] Speaker 1: weird to Americans. It's like an undesignated landscape that has
[18:32] Speaker 1: like very unregulated subsistence farming activities. Meaning it's like like
[18:37] Speaker 1: if you if you go back and imagine the if
[18:42] Speaker 1: you go back and imagine the American frontier of the
[18:45] Speaker 1: Appalachian Region in seventeen seventy seventeen eighty, yep, it's like
[18:52] Speaker 1: like like in Boone and guys like that, it's basically
[18:55] Speaker 1: what they did. Yeah, Like they just kind of go
[18:58] Speaker 1: into a place, chop a bunch off down, burn stuff,
[19:01] Speaker 1: grow a crop, deplete the soil, bump belong grow a
[19:05] Speaker 1: corn crop, and it's kind of it's still like that,
[19:09] Speaker 1: like you just have like communities and I can see
[19:11] Speaker 1: that if you didn't have and flying over it, you
[19:16] Speaker 1: see they're gigantic. You see geometrical shapes, Yes, that are gigantic.
[19:24] Speaker 1: Though it'd be like you're looking like for as far
[19:26] Speaker 1: as you can see, you see a straight line and
[19:29] Speaker 1: it winds up being where stuff is slash and burn
[19:31] Speaker 1: agg and live stide grazing, and it comes up to
[19:35] Speaker 1: like a game reserve and then it's like then it's
[19:37] Speaker 1: like wilderness and then you know, ten minutes later whatever
[19:40] Speaker 1: five minutes later, you fly over the other edge and
[19:42] Speaker 1: it goes back to like slash and burn egg and
[19:45] Speaker 1: livestock grazing.
[19:46] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's one of the issues that we have
[19:48] Speaker 2: is that there isn't really a buffer anymore. You know.
[19:51] Speaker 2: It's that that human kind of activity is right up
[19:54] Speaker 2: against our boundaries, which is is an opportunity and you know,
[19:58] Speaker 2: and a sort of risk. The risk is if if
[20:02] Speaker 2: those communities aren't being properly served, if they're really struggling,
[20:06] Speaker 2: there's always that temptation for encroachment as far as pushing
[20:10] Speaker 2: livestock in here, pushing agriculture in here, poaching activities like that.
[20:15] Speaker 2: But if those communities are properly served, they could be
[20:18] Speaker 2: great partners for conservation too. They can really help us
[20:21] Speaker 2: out in protecting these areas, long term policing outsiders that
[20:25] Speaker 2: might be coming in looking to do criminal activity, and
[20:28] Speaker 2: a great source of employees and people that we can
[20:33] Speaker 2: just generally cooperate with. So we see that not in
[20:36] Speaker 2: such a negative light. It presents both an opportunity at risk,
[20:40] Speaker 2: and we're just always trying to tweak our operations and
[20:43] Speaker 2: adjust our kind of posture to where those communities are
[20:46] Speaker 2: on side. They're seeing the benefits and they're working with us,
[20:49] Speaker 2: rather than we're kind of like at odds, Well.
[20:53] Speaker 1: It's such another aspect, then we're kind of we'll clause
[20:57] Speaker 1: up with what our objective is going to be over
[20:58] Speaker 1: the next few days. But here's another aspect. They would
[21:00] Speaker 1: like blow Americans minds. Weren't a what anybody would define
[21:06] Speaker 1: as a wilderness area. You guys have you call him roads.
[21:10] Speaker 1: You guys have trails, Like if you didn't tend to
[21:12] Speaker 1: this in two years, it's gone, it's gone here. Yeah,
[21:14] Speaker 1: So you guys have a trail network, you have a camp,
[21:18] Speaker 1: you have vehicles. So what the Tanzanian government's able to
[21:22] Speaker 1: do is they're able to put a law enforcement officer
[21:27] Speaker 1: like a game warden with you in your truck. So
[21:32] Speaker 1: his responsibility is like what are you up to? But
[21:34] Speaker 1: also you provide like the infrastructure and transportation for him
[21:38] Speaker 1: to then patrol the wilderness. And like today we went
[21:42] Speaker 1: out and ran into some dudes doing wild honey and
[21:45] Speaker 1: like the guy with us carrying AK forty seven, like
[21:50] Speaker 1: ask them for their honey license, but he produces out
[21:52] Speaker 1: of his pocket and checks his paperwork, you know. And
[21:56] Speaker 1: it's just like it'd be like if someone said, like, hey,
[21:59] Speaker 1: while you're hunt in the US, or someone said, hey,
[22:01] Speaker 1: why you boys are elkinne, do you mind giving our
[22:04] Speaker 1: game word and a ride around so he can see
[22:06] Speaker 1: what's going on, you know, just like it's like completely
[22:09] Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, it's impossible to picture, but it's like
[22:12] Speaker 1: this such a different interesting system. Yeah, you make like
[22:16] Speaker 1: you make it possible for wildlife law enforcement to occur
[22:21] Speaker 1: in this area. Yeah, and otherwise it probably wouldn't. Yeah,
[22:24] Speaker 1: absolutely well, we and that's always been a big thing
[22:27] Speaker 1: for us, our relationship with TAWA, which is the agency
[22:32] Speaker 1: that he comes from, is about cooperation. We want to
[22:35] Speaker 1: do things together. Our goals are very much aligned. When
[22:39] Speaker 1: our business works, their revenue looks good and their outcomes
[22:43] Speaker 1: as far as wanting to see habitat restoration and stable
[22:47] Speaker 1: or growing numbers of wildlife and intact wilderness, they're meeting
[22:51] Speaker 1: their goals too. So very much everything we do here
[22:54] Speaker 1: is in collaboration with them, right down to I mean,
[22:57] Speaker 1: and you know, right down to the fact that, yeah,
[22:58] Speaker 1: the relationship with him is not adversarial.
[23:01] Speaker 2: I'm not like, yeah he's jumping out. He's really keen.
[23:05] Speaker 2: He's really invested in our success because that's where that's
[23:09] Speaker 2: where their bread's buttered. Right. And then even our anti
[23:11] Speaker 2: poaching patrols behind the scenes, that's done totally in cooperation
[23:15] Speaker 2: with TAWA as well. That's a joint venture between us
[23:17] Speaker 2: and then to everyone's mutual benefit. So yeah, that's one
[23:20] Speaker 2: of the really nice things here. These law enforcement guys
[23:22] Speaker 2: to us, they're not like the fun stoppers, you know,
[23:25] Speaker 2: they're sure they're there to help us.
[23:28] Speaker 1: Another fun one that I think would be just surprising.
[23:32] Speaker 1: I can think of one example in the US, some
[23:35] Speaker 1: shuters more but like there's some unit, there's some black
[23:39] Speaker 1: bear units in Alaska where if you hit the bear,
[23:44] Speaker 1: that's your tag.
[23:45] Speaker 2: Yep.
[23:46] Speaker 1: Okay, you touch the bear, it that's your tag yep.
[23:49] Speaker 1: Here if you wing it, yeah that's true. Yeah, it
[23:54] Speaker 1: comes off your license wounded, lost, and and that's like
[23:58] Speaker 1: that's that's the hunter's chance has been like, well let's
[24:01] Speaker 1: go get another one.
[24:01] Speaker 2: No, no, I mean there are things where you have
[24:03] Speaker 2: multiples on license, but but you're still paying for that
[24:06] Speaker 2: first one. And so that's another great reason to do
[24:10] Speaker 2: your do your practice. You come, take your time, and
[24:14] Speaker 2: if you don't feel good, you know, don't pull the trigger.
[24:16] Speaker 2: That's a big one. I can. I can bring my
[24:20] Speaker 2: clients right up to that point, but once once it
[24:23] Speaker 2: comes to pressing that trigger, that's all on you. So
[24:26] Speaker 2: but we won't have any issues there.
[24:29] Speaker 1: Don't play on on it.
[24:31] Speaker 2: Okay.
[24:31] Speaker 1: So explain where hard this is going to play out
[24:34] Speaker 1: over the next few days as we try to get
[24:37] Speaker 1: a buffalo.
[24:37] Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, we're early season here. The cover is
[24:40] Speaker 2: still really thick, a lot of thick vegetation, a lot
[24:43] Speaker 2: of tall grass. So that's kind of got a double
[24:45] Speaker 2: edged quality to it. Where we we're gonna it's gonna
[24:49] Speaker 2: make it easier for us to sneak up on them,
[24:50] Speaker 2: but it's going to make it harder for us to
[24:51] Speaker 2: find them. So we're really focusing on finding tracks, and
[24:56] Speaker 2: that means getting up early, well before dawn, transiting through
[25:01] Speaker 2: those less productive areas, and getting to kind of buffalo hotspots,
[25:04] Speaker 2: which at the moment is these little valleys that kind
[25:06] Speaker 2: of feed down to the Ugulla River and those valleys
[25:10] Speaker 2: hold buffalo and in there we have roads that kind
[25:13] Speaker 2: of transsect them. A lot of those roads, unfortunately right
[25:16] Speaker 2: now are still pretty wet, so that's why we've done
[25:18] Speaker 2: a lot of walking today, just trying to kind of
[25:20] Speaker 2: find those tracks on foot. But in an ideal world,
[25:23] Speaker 2: we'd cut those tracks where they've crossed one of our
[25:25] Speaker 2: roads or where they've come from water, or we'll find
[25:28] Speaker 2: them on foot if need be, and once we find
[25:31] Speaker 2: a good viable track. You know, this morning we had
[25:33] Speaker 2: a bit of an issue with there was tracks mixed
[25:35] Speaker 2: in with other tracks, and the buffalo had been feeding
[25:38] Speaker 2: and a herd had crossed over the bulls, and then
[25:39] Speaker 2: the bulls had crossed back over the herd, and it
[25:42] Speaker 2: was just extremely difficult to sort out to where it
[25:45] Speaker 2: didn't seem like a good use of time. But eventually,
[25:47] Speaker 2: if we keep at it, we're going to find a
[25:49] Speaker 2: set of tracks where there'll be some feeding. But then
[25:52] Speaker 2: we'll see where they've lined out to go look for
[25:54] Speaker 2: shade and look for a place to lay down and
[25:56] Speaker 2: ruminate during the day, and we're going to get on
[25:58] Speaker 2: those tracks and follow them till we find those buffalo.
[26:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's parts excites me.
[26:02] Speaker 2: Man.
[26:02] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's going to be it's so hard to picture.
[26:04] Speaker 2: Oh, and it's a different feeling. I mean, it's been
[26:06] Speaker 2: cool today to look for tracks, old tracks and different tracks.
[26:10] Speaker 2: But when you're on a track that's really got some
[26:12] Speaker 2: substance to it, like you've got something to really chew on,
[26:15] Speaker 2: and you see the guys are on it and they're
[26:17] Speaker 2: following it and they're engaged, that's a different feeling and
[26:19] Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to feeling
[26:21] Speaker 2: that vibe.
[26:22] Speaker 1: It's hard take a stab out here. How many miles
[26:26] Speaker 1: might you cover today? It really depends on what you're doing.
[26:29] Speaker 2: But I bet in some of these days we'll do
[26:32] Speaker 2: one hundred, one hundred and twenty miles in the car
[26:35] Speaker 2: and then you know, prop all on trails and then
[26:38] Speaker 2: anywhere from four to twenty on foot, just depending on
[26:43] Speaker 2: how where we end up and how close we can
[26:45] Speaker 2: get the car to come pick us up. We were
[26:47] Speaker 2: kind of lucky today. We did a few miles and
[26:49] Speaker 2: we were able to get the cars in front of
[26:51] Speaker 2: us to where we didn't have to walk back to
[26:52] Speaker 2: the rigs. So that was really helpful. But it's not
[26:55] Speaker 2: a guarantee it was a good trail run. Yeah, it
[26:57] Speaker 2: was a good dry run. Yeah, I wish we'd picked
[26:59] Speaker 2: up some fresher tracks in there. But if we keep
[27:01] Speaker 2: out this, it's gonna work.
[27:02] Speaker 1: And the final last thing we're looking for, like, we're
[27:05] Speaker 1: looking for bulls, yeah, that are like at the end
[27:08] Speaker 1: of their life.
[27:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and they're in a non breeding phase. So
[27:11] Speaker 2: we're looking for bachelor solitary bulls or bulls that are
[27:15] Speaker 2: in the company of a couple of other bulls outside
[27:17] Speaker 2: of the herd, so they're in a non breeding phase, and.
[27:19] Speaker 1: They might be how old.
[27:21] Speaker 2: I'm anywhere from eight to twelve. Twelve would be the
[27:25] Speaker 2: extreme upper end, and then sort of an eight nine
[27:27] Speaker 2: year old to'd be right in that sweet spot that
[27:29] Speaker 2: we want.
[27:30] Speaker 1: You know, that's very similar to is is like doll sheet.
[27:33] Speaker 2: Oh really yeah. Oh interesting, So that's kind of when
[27:35] Speaker 2: they're coming to the end of a.
[27:37] Speaker 1: Lot of dolls sheet Like twelve is like really old yeah.
[27:40] Speaker 1: Ten is kind of the sweet spot.
[27:42] Speaker 2: Nice for a big round, Yeah for sure. Yeah, and
[27:45] Speaker 2: nice old bulls what we're looking for and we're going
[27:46] Speaker 2: to find him. He's out here, all right.
[27:50] Speaker 1: We'll keep colming, we'll keep dropping more things, and we'll
[27:52] Speaker 1: cover all kinds different aspects. We're gonna talk to trackers
[27:56] Speaker 1: who are the stars of the show, absolute hundred trackers.
[28:00] Speaker 1: I won't talk to any camera guys. It's been proposed.
[28:02] Speaker 1: I don't think we're gonna do that. We'll think of
[28:04] Speaker 1: all kinds of interesting things to talk about. Stay tuned.

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