# Ep. 851: The Promise and Controversy of American Prairie

An episode of [The MeatEater Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/960902903), 23 Mar 2026, 1 h 41 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/63aba8bc-2dc8-4f89-807a-ae280065a7cd/82322f86-b9e2-4265-af2b-b41301034f7a/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=3892b9a1-a960-4f9e-bee7-ae280065a7db

Steven Rinella talks with Alison Fox, CEO of American Prairie. Topics discussed: The history of American Prairie and its aim to create one of the largest land preserves in the country; plains for buffalo; land acquisitions; funding structure; grazing permits and the BLM; block management, hunting on American Prairie lands, access; and more. Connect with Steve and The MeatEater Podcast Network Steve on Instagram and Twitter MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: What you're about to listen to is a conversation with
[0:02] Speaker 1: Alison Fox, the CEO of American Prairie. For twenty five years,
[0:06] Speaker 1: American Prairie has been executing on an ambitious and highly
[0:10] Speaker 1: controversial plan to buy hundreds of thousands of acres of
[0:14] Speaker 1: ranch land in the vicinity of the Charles M. Russell
[0:17] Speaker 1: National Wildlife Refuge in north central Montana in order to
[0:21] Speaker 1: ultimately compile a contiguous block of private and public lands
[0:26] Speaker 1: that are fifty percent larger than Yellowstone National Park, all
[0:30] Speaker 1: open to the public. So far, they've managed to buy
[0:33] Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty nine thousand acres. Their aim is
[0:37] Speaker 1: to manage the land to maximize wildlife habitat health, and
[0:41] Speaker 1: restore a grassland ecosystem inhabited by a full suite of
[0:46] Speaker 1: native wildlife, including the American Buffalo. Fans and supporters of
[0:51] Speaker 1: the plan see a Yellowstone of the Great Plains, or,
[0:54] Speaker 1: to steal a term from the historian Dan Floores an
[0:57] Speaker 1: American serengetti, see an evil land grab that poses an
[1:04] Speaker 1: existential threat to the American cowboy. If this is the
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[1:19] Speaker 1: and in my case underwear listening to podcast, you can't
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[1:43] Speaker 1: T E dot com. All right, everybody, I'm joining today
[1:49] Speaker 1: by Alison Fox. She goes by Ali, Yes, thank you.
[1:52] Speaker 1: Correct the CEO of American Prayer. You may have known,
[1:57] Speaker 1: and I didn't even catch when this happened. American out
[2:00] Speaker 1: of Time was American Prairie Reserve, Yes, but became American
[2:03] Speaker 1: Prairie how long.
[2:04] Speaker 2: Ago twenty twenty one, and before that we were American
[2:09] Speaker 2: Prairie Foundation.
[2:10] Speaker 3: It's been a journey, right.
[2:11] Speaker 1: So now landed officially on American Prairie. She's been the
[2:14] Speaker 1: She's led the organization since February twenty eighteen, and has
[2:20] Speaker 1: been with the organization in very roll various roles since
[2:24] Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. Here in the state of Montana,
[2:29] Speaker 1: they're they're based here in the state of Montana, primarily
[2:31] Speaker 1: in north central Montana. I'm gonna let you explain what
[2:34] Speaker 1: the mission is okay. But but American Prairie is and
[2:40] Speaker 1: we'll get into what it is and what it's been
[2:42] Speaker 1: interpreted as and controversy surrounding the organization. But it is
[2:50] Speaker 1: a one of a kind effort.
[2:52] Speaker 3: That is true.
[2:54] Speaker 1: It is a one of a kind habitat restoration effort
[2:59] Speaker 1: going on, and it presents certain challenges. But I would
[3:02] Speaker 1: like you first to lay out like layout for the audience.
[3:05] Speaker 1: Layout for me, what is the American Prairie vision?
[3:10] Speaker 2: Okay, let me start with what America Prairie is today.
[3:13] Speaker 2: So American Prairie is a nearly twenty five year old
[3:16] Speaker 2: conservation organization. We are based here in Montana. We are
[3:21] Speaker 2: a team of Montana's leading this organization and today we
[3:25] Speaker 2: manage six hundred and five thousand acres of habitat of
[3:29] Speaker 2: deeded and least public lands lands that are open to
[3:32] Speaker 2: the public and are all located around the Charli Russell
[3:35] Speaker 2: National Wildlife Refuge up in north central Montana. The ultimate
[3:40] Speaker 2: vision is to using private philanthropy purchase private lands to
[3:47] Speaker 2: link together existing public lands around the Charlie Russell National
[3:51] Speaker 2: Wildlife Refuge for eventually a landscape of about three million
[3:54] Speaker 2: acres so we've assembled six hundred and five thousand acres
[3:58] Speaker 2: toward two million acres to the one point one millionacre
[4:01] Speaker 2: Charlie Ussell National Wildlife Refuge.
[4:03] Speaker 1: These lands are back those numbers up, mix. I want
[4:06] Speaker 1: to follow this, yep, the current Charlie Russell Land. So
[4:13] Speaker 1: this is this is like BLM public land.
[4:16] Speaker 3: It's US Fish and Wildlife Service.
[4:17] Speaker 1: That's US Fish. Okay, I'm sorry, so you so, so
[4:20] Speaker 1: the actual CMR proper is how many acres?
[4:23] Speaker 3: It's one point one million acres.
[4:24] Speaker 1: One point one million acres, okay.
[4:25] Speaker 2: And it's along the Missouri For those are not familiar,
[4:28] Speaker 2: it's a long and skinny wildlife refuge along the Missouri River.
[4:32] Speaker 2: So it's river river bottom steep breaks on either side down.
[4:36] Speaker 3: To the river.
[4:37] Speaker 1: I guess when you were saying that, in my head,
[4:38] Speaker 1: I'm mixing up the National Wild Scenic River designation. But
[4:46] Speaker 1: you're talking about the CMR the reserve.
[4:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the refuge. Yeah, the second largest refuge in
[4:52] Speaker 2: the in the lower forty eight Okay. And then what
[4:54] Speaker 2: you're referring to is the is the Missouri River portion,
[4:58] Speaker 2: the White Cliffs portion that has wild and see Nick
[5:01] Speaker 2: River designation, and that goes through the monument.
[5:04] Speaker 3: Yep, Missouri breaks now.
[5:05] Speaker 1: And that's that's a huge complex of public lands extending
[5:08] Speaker 1: off exactly.
[5:09] Speaker 2: It's somewhere around four hundred thousand acres okay, fifty acres.
[5:13] Speaker 1: Okay, So the so the refuge is how many acres?
[5:17] Speaker 3: One point one million?
[5:18] Speaker 1: Just for for context for people, ye Alstoe National Park
[5:22] Speaker 1: is about two million acres exactly.
[5:24] Speaker 3: Glacier is about a million.
[5:25] Speaker 1: Okay, got it, all right, So there's so the ultimate
[5:29] Speaker 1: goal you're saying is make like the shooting for three
[5:32] Speaker 1: million contiguous acres exactly, and how many so far?
[5:36] Speaker 3: So six hundred and five thousand next to one point
[5:39] Speaker 3: one million.
[5:40] Speaker 1: Acres Okay, Okay. There's a huge buffalo component to this thing,
[5:46] Speaker 1: there is. Yeah, let's let's explain that to folks. Yeah,
[5:49] Speaker 1: this is where this is where I get interested. I'm
[5:53] Speaker 1: interested in the whole thing, but this is where I
[5:54] Speaker 1: have like a more detailed, fine point interest.
[5:57] Speaker 2: Real tattoo or not, yeah, fake tattoo tattoos. So let's
[6:04] Speaker 2: just start with what this landscape look like. What are
[6:07] Speaker 2: great planes look like for thousands and thousands of years,
[6:11] Speaker 2: and that, as you know, as you've written about, was
[6:14] Speaker 2: tens of millions of bison out on this landscape for
[6:17] Speaker 2: buffalo out on this landscape in a very very short time.
[6:22] Speaker 2: And Dan Flores's talks about this in his book American
[6:26] Speaker 2: Serengetti as the greatest loss of wildlife at they had
[6:31] Speaker 2: human hands in modern human history, documented human history. That
[6:35] Speaker 2: we went from thirty plus million animals to less than
[6:40] Speaker 2: a thousand in Yellowstone National Park. So good conservation has
[6:44] Speaker 2: been happening to return bison. I think they're about a
[6:48] Speaker 2: half million in both conservation and production herds in the
[6:53] Speaker 2: country now, and I think it's less than twenty thousand
[6:55] Speaker 2: that are in conservation herds.
[6:57] Speaker 3: You may know that exactly, it's.
[6:59] Speaker 1: About ninety I mean, well, just kind of a good
[7:02] Speaker 1: way to understand it is about ninety five percent of
[7:05] Speaker 1: them are privately owned.
[7:06] Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, so that numbers about that numbers about right.
[7:09] Speaker 2: And so from the American Prairie is not a buffalo
[7:12] Speaker 2: or bison project entirely. We are a full ecosystem, full
[7:17] Speaker 2: conservation and public access. And I hope we talk a
[7:20] Speaker 2: lot about public access too, will public access project. But
[7:24] Speaker 2: from the beginning, from basically American Prairie start, we recognize
[7:28] Speaker 2: that bringing bison back to the landscape was an important
[7:32] Speaker 2: part of demonstrating the ultimate vision and bringing that native
[7:35] Speaker 2: grazer back to the land. So American Prairie has grazed
[7:39] Speaker 2: bison on our lands since two thousand and five. We
[7:42] Speaker 2: bought the first property in two thousand and four. This
[7:44] Speaker 2: was a few years before my time, but that early
[7:47] Speaker 2: team was brave and intrepid, and they brought sixteen animals
[7:52] Speaker 2: in from wind Cave National Park in two thousand and five,
[7:56] Speaker 2: and we have been growing this conservation heard ever since.
[7:59] Speaker 2: It's about nine d and ay animals now on to
[8:02] Speaker 2: two of our twelve units. So the six hundred and
[8:06] Speaker 2: five thousand acres is split up into into a number
[8:10] Speaker 2: of units based on what which properties were available for purchase.
[8:15] Speaker 1: You know, I didn't know till the other day. I'm
[8:18] Speaker 1: writing a I'm writing like an updated afterward for my
[8:24] Speaker 1: Buffalo book because there's been eighteen years and so I'm
[8:28] Speaker 1: doing I'm doing kind of a snapshot of I don't
[8:33] Speaker 1: talk about American Prairie animals, but I'm doing a snapshot
[8:36] Speaker 1: of what I define as like really truly free range
[8:41] Speaker 1: herds that can move across jurisdictions.
[8:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, which there are a few, very.
[8:46] Speaker 1: Few, right, very few. They can move across.
[8:49] Speaker 3: Henry's Mountains, Book Cliffs.
[8:53] Speaker 1: One that but that discussion brought In that discussion, I'm
[8:57] Speaker 1: talking about the ones that live on the North Rim,
[8:59] Speaker 1: and there's a population the North Rim that can move
[9:01] Speaker 1: across jurisdictions.
[9:02] Speaker 3: The Grand Canyon.
[9:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, well they move from from the park onto the Kaibab,
[9:07] Speaker 1: they can move onto state lands up there. So I
[9:09] Speaker 1: was talking about those and I didn't realize that that
[9:12] Speaker 1: at one point in time American prairie animals I think
[9:15] Speaker 1: some excess American prairie animals went to Arizona.
[9:19] Speaker 3: Yes, probably, I've read about that.
[9:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. I mean so that that was used
[9:23] Speaker 1: as a foundation herd for other conservation herds.
[9:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, we have.
[9:27] Speaker 2: You know, we have nine hundred and forty animals today.
[9:29] Speaker 2: We have raised more than two thousand animals in this
[9:33] Speaker 2: twenty year history of bison on the landscape, and north
[9:36] Speaker 2: of six hundred and fifty have been distributed to other
[9:39] Speaker 2: conservation herds, and we've helped start a number of herds.
[9:44] Speaker 2: Many of those are tribal herds, but some of them
[9:46] Speaker 2: are federally or state managed herds.
[9:49] Speaker 1: You know, years ago We did an interview with Sean Garrity. Yes,
[9:56] Speaker 1: Shaun Garrity, like, how do you describe what his roles
[10:00] Speaker 1: in American Prairie today or just historically.
[10:04] Speaker 2: So Sean was a founder of American Prairie. He this
[10:08] Speaker 2: idea was not his. It came and we can talk
[10:11] Speaker 2: about where the idea originated. But he was a first CEO.
[10:14] Speaker 1: And so he did held the CEO.
[10:16] Speaker 2: He held the CEO position, and he started with the organization.
[10:20] Speaker 3: I mean he built the entire organization.
[10:22] Speaker 2: He came from business, he came from a consulting background.
[10:26] Speaker 2: He knew a lot about organizational management and design, and
[10:29] Speaker 2: it was you know, he was he was the entrepreneur
[10:32] Speaker 2: who built the organization. So Sean was the CEO President's
[10:35] Speaker 2: CEO for seventeen years and then I took over. I
[10:40] Speaker 2: worked for Sean for ten years and then took over
[10:43] Speaker 2: in two thousand and eighteen from Seawn. And then he
[10:48] Speaker 2: continued to serve on the board for a bit and
[10:50] Speaker 2: is now an emeritis director.
[10:52] Speaker 1: Got him what the thing that we had talked about
[10:57] Speaker 1: when I spoke with him, and it surprised me, is
[11:00] Speaker 1: I sort of maybe other people do. I used to
[11:03] Speaker 1: have an association between American prairie, like conceptually between American
[11:09] Speaker 1: prairie and the the member of the sociologist that had
[11:13] Speaker 1: this idea of Buffalo commons, he didn't like the he
[11:17] Speaker 1: didn't like he was uncomfortable with the relationship. But it
[11:22] Speaker 1: felt like to me, like like if it, if not intentional,
[11:26] Speaker 1: was such an interesting it was like an interesting point
[11:30] Speaker 1: of comparison or an interesting coincidence. Yeah, it was because
[11:36] Speaker 1: and I want to like explain to listeners quickly, like
[11:38] Speaker 1: a thing that what I'm talking about is I think
[11:41] Speaker 1: it was like Frank Popper and Mary Pop Poppers for
[11:44] Speaker 1: the last name, there's these sociologists. Nate looked at this idea. Well,
[11:50] Speaker 1: let me let me back up even further to a
[11:52] Speaker 1: different part of this, just for listeners understanding. If you
[11:55] Speaker 1: think of when you think of like big national forces
[11:59] Speaker 1: in the West, a lot of times national forests in
[12:01] Speaker 1: the West, they were had always been set aside as
[12:04] Speaker 1: forest reserves, they were undeveloped landscapes. In the east, you
[12:07] Speaker 1: had this thing east of the Mississippi, a lot of
[12:10] Speaker 1: these big national forests like the one I grew up near.
[12:12] Speaker 1: I grew up near the Manistee National Forest, the Manisteine
[12:16] Speaker 1: National Forest was assembled after the fact, like much of
[12:19] Speaker 1: the Manistee National Forest had been homesteaded and people bought
[12:25] Speaker 1: it for agriculture after the big logging era. But a
[12:29] Speaker 1: lot of that land couldn't be made to pay and
[12:32] Speaker 1: people bailed on it. They bailed on back taxes, they
[12:35] Speaker 1: just walked away from the land. And over time they
[12:37] Speaker 1: had this there's this whole story where they had the
[12:38] Speaker 1: Weeks Act. They made money, like the government had money,
[12:42] Speaker 1: and they started to reassemble abandoned landscapes into the national
[12:46] Speaker 1: forests that are in the eastern US. Years ago, it
[12:51] Speaker 1: was in the seventies, maybe someone brought up this idea
[12:54] Speaker 1: that these sociologists were looking at areas on the Great
[12:58] Speaker 1: Plains that they that they would see that what over
[13:02] Speaker 1: time had less and less population, and they put forth
[13:07] Speaker 1: this side. You know, it was just like this kind
[13:09] Speaker 1: of observation that if if landscapes, if landscapes depopulated, would
[13:17] Speaker 1: you see, like you know, would some sort of new
[13:20] Speaker 1: like after the fact wilderness emerge and depopulated landscapes. And
[13:26] Speaker 1: that I think that when they were looking, they were
[13:29] Speaker 1: sort of like happened to be looking in this particular
[13:32] Speaker 1: era area of the state as great planes became, as
[13:35] Speaker 1: portions of the great planes became less populated. I think
[13:38] Speaker 1: I remember reading about this in Ian Fraser's book Great Planes. Yeah,
[13:46] Speaker 1: and ultimately that's kind of where this idea e merged.
[13:49] Speaker 1: But it's not but it's not like a reflection of that.
[13:52] Speaker 1: But I think that people hold that in their heads maybe. Yeah.
[13:55] Speaker 2: And the idea was called Buffalo Commons, So it was
[13:58] Speaker 2: particularly looking at what the decimation of buffalo on the
[14:03] Speaker 2: landscape and where could buffalo come back. I think Shawn's point,
[14:06] Speaker 2: and it's a good one, is that they were just
[14:10] Speaker 2: one of many who were looking at at our great planes,
[14:15] Speaker 2: at if you even look at a global level, at
[14:19] Speaker 2: temperate grasslands, and saying where could you restore that full ecosystem?
[14:25] Speaker 2: And so, you know, I like to point out that
[14:28] Speaker 2: it was the American painter George Catlin in the nineteen
[14:30] Speaker 2: thirty eighteen thirties excuse me, who called for the establishment
[14:34] Speaker 2: of a nation's park on our grasslands. He was just
[14:37] Speaker 2: as he was coming up the Missouri River, he was just,
[14:40] Speaker 2: you know, astonished by the numbers of animals that he saw.
[14:45] Speaker 2: And he has this great quote about being lifted up
[14:49] Speaker 2: on a pair of imaginary wings and seeing just endless
[14:54] Speaker 2: herds of buffalo below him, and calling for the establishment
[14:57] Speaker 2: of a nation's park for man and beast, which of
[15:00] Speaker 2: course never happened, and we never set aside a large
[15:05] Speaker 2: portion of our grasslands.
[15:07] Speaker 1: Why was that, Like they went on, they got to Yellows,
[15:11] Speaker 1: you know, like you hear all the stories, the conservation
[15:13] Speaker 1: history stories, like someone's like Yosemite, Now there's a place,
[15:17] Speaker 1: Yeah it should be we should save a chunk of that,
[15:19] Speaker 1: And they go to Yellowstone, like, man, we should save
[15:22] Speaker 1: a chunk of this. But on the on the grasslands,
[15:27] Speaker 1: it just didn't occur to anybody.
[15:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in part it was it was timing.
[15:33] Speaker 2: You know, we were we were settling the grasslands, and
[15:37] Speaker 2: of course, you know, with the with the extormation of
[15:40] Speaker 2: the buffalo, we were pushing indigenous nations off into under
[15:43] Speaker 2: reservations as well. And so that period from eighteen seventy
[15:47] Speaker 2: two when we establigh Yellstone through kind of the mid
[15:50] Speaker 2: twentieth century, we weren't viewing the wildlife was gone from
[15:56] Speaker 2: the grasslands, and we weren't viewing that as as something
[15:59] Speaker 2: to be protected. And I think there's also the sort
[16:02] Speaker 2: of scenic bias, right, like we were like really tall
[16:05] Speaker 2: mountains and we like and we like deep canyons and
[16:09] Speaker 2: you know, geysers and uh and the subtlety you know
[16:14] Speaker 2: that you know, you know this landscape. It's it's fast
[16:17] Speaker 2: and complex and beautiful, but you don't that's not it's
[16:23] Speaker 2: not it's dramatic in a different way.
[16:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, you get something you got to learn love.
[16:27] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[16:27] Speaker 1: When I think about the timeline, you know, like like
[16:33] Speaker 1: early conservationists wait to understand how quickly early conservationists recognize
[16:38] Speaker 1: certain things like Yellowstone and Yosemity, these like very almost
[16:44] Speaker 1: like like two like so obviously scenic, right that Yellowstone
[16:50] Speaker 1: was a protected park. Yellowstone had tourists when when they
[16:56] Speaker 1: were we were still fighting the Indian Wars, when the
[17:00] Speaker 1: Nez Purse fled reservation confinement in in uh eastern Washington,
[17:09] Speaker 1: western Idaho, when the nes Purse were fleeing reservation confinement
[17:13] Speaker 1: and the Nez Perse War started, a part of their
[17:18] Speaker 1: retreat led them through Yellowstone and they're having like shootouts
[17:24] Speaker 1: in the park while there are tourists there. It was
[17:27] Speaker 1: like that early, that early in the history of the West.
[17:31] Speaker 3: But it's just like not the wagons and going from there.
[17:36] Speaker 1: At that point in time, someone had come in and said, man,
[17:39] Speaker 1: you know, let's do a couple million acres two out
[17:43] Speaker 1: on the Great Plains, they would be like they would
[17:46] Speaker 1: be as celebrated today for that decision as we celebrate
[17:53] Speaker 1: you know, the people that were involved in Millstone.
[17:55] Speaker 2: And those were the decades where we were really decimating
[17:58] Speaker 2: those hurts. Eighteen seventies, eighteen eighties, Yeah, those were you know,
[18:02] Speaker 2: those were the years where you know that we were
[18:05] Speaker 2: just slaughtering these these animals.
[18:08] Speaker 1: So yeah, what when did the when did the idea
[18:11] Speaker 1: of American prairie first take shape? Like how did it
[18:15] Speaker 1: take shape and when?
[18:16] Speaker 2: Yeah, there were a number of conservation organizations and coalitions
[18:21] Speaker 2: in like the late nineties, Yeah, the late nineties basically
[18:24] Speaker 2: who said we're looking again at temperate grasslands across the
[18:29] Speaker 2: globe and particularly the northern Great Plains and recognizing that
[18:34] Speaker 2: we didn't we didn't have those those large protected areas,
[18:40] Speaker 2: and it was it was Worldwidelie Fund was the organization
[18:43] Speaker 2: that founded American prairie from the beginning as an independent
[18:46] Speaker 2: five oh one c three with the model that we
[18:49] Speaker 2: now have today, which is private philanthropy to purchase private
[18:53] Speaker 2: lands to link together existing public lands, and so that
[18:56] Speaker 2: this region in Montana they recognized for it's wild life history,
[19:00] Speaker 2: they recognized it for the abundance of public lands, and
[19:03] Speaker 2: they recognize that you know, well over ninety percent is
[19:08] Speaker 2: intact native prairie, has not been plowed and has been
[19:11] Speaker 2: well stewarded, so the habitat is in good shape, and
[19:15] Speaker 2: that those were really the factors that led them to
[19:18] Speaker 2: choose this area there where there are other, you know,
[19:21] Speaker 2: bigger protected grassland areas in South Dakota and Colorado and Wyoming,
[19:26] Speaker 2: but American they chose this area for American prairie to
[19:30] Speaker 2: to do its work.
[19:32] Speaker 1: When did you first find out about it? Like, how
[19:33] Speaker 1: did you first get turned onto it? Personally?
[19:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, personally, so I moved.
[19:38] Speaker 2: I'm from a small town in vermont and I spent
[19:41] Speaker 2: a summer up in Glacier National Parking College, and that
[19:44] Speaker 2: was the beginning of my time in Montana. I met
[19:48] Speaker 2: a Montana who's now my husband, and just completely fall
[19:51] Speaker 2: in love with the big landscapes of the West, big
[19:54] Speaker 2: tracks of public land. I grew up hiking in the
[19:56] Speaker 2: White Mountains in New Hampshire in the Green Mountains in Vermont.
[19:59] Speaker 3: But these these really really.
[20:02] Speaker 2: Big expanses of public lands were were relatively new to me,
[20:06] Speaker 2: so I would have probably come into Montana anyway. So
[20:09] Speaker 2: I moved to bozman right after college and worked for
[20:12] Speaker 2: software company for a few years. And while I was here,
[20:16] Speaker 2: met a college classmate of mine whose parents were involved
[20:19] Speaker 2: with American Prairie and that's how I learned about it.
[20:23] Speaker 2: So I went after I went to graduate school, we
[20:26] Speaker 2: moved back to Bozeman, and that's when I got involved.
[20:29] Speaker 1: When when American Prairie was taking shape, like it's called
[20:33] Speaker 1: American Prairie Foundation at the time, what was the first step,
[20:38] Speaker 1: like the first step what had to have been like
[20:39] Speaker 1: a piece of land acquisition.
[20:42] Speaker 3: I mean, the first step was building a board of directors.
[20:45] Speaker 1: I guess the first tangible step.
[20:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, first yeah, So first step was building, building
[20:51] Speaker 2: a board, starting to raise money and then and then yeah,
[20:55] Speaker 2: and then acquiring property. The first property was the end
[20:58] Speaker 2: of two thousand for so that we were found in
[21:01] Speaker 2: two thousand and one. That was a pretty quick turn
[21:04] Speaker 2: to get the to get the organization up off the
[21:06] Speaker 2: off the ground, you.
[21:08] Speaker 1: Know, the thing that like on that property. I want
[21:11] Speaker 1: to talk about that property purchase for a minute, because
[21:13] Speaker 1: this is the thing that always puzzles me about the
[21:18] Speaker 1: conversations that that people have around American prairie. Is it
[21:23] Speaker 1: like you guys have always been like willing sell or
[21:28] Speaker 1: willing buyer? Yes, okay, It's like if someone owns land.
[21:35] Speaker 1: Like most Americans, most Westerners would agree that if someone
[21:39] Speaker 1: owns a ranch and they designed their family decides that
[21:43] Speaker 1: it's time to sell the ranch, that that would be
[21:45] Speaker 1: their business.
[21:46] Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
[21:48] Speaker 1: Most people would agree with us that it would be
[21:51] Speaker 1: that when you want to sell a ranch, that's your call.
[21:57] Speaker 1: That there wouldn't be like a government entity would come
[21:59] Speaker 1: in and say you cannot sell that ranch. You must
[22:01] Speaker 1: hold on to that ranch. People would agree that you
[22:03] Speaker 1: should be able to do what you want. So you
[22:06] Speaker 1: list it m and you have a price, and no
[22:10] Speaker 1: one's holding a gun to your head, and you, as
[22:13] Speaker 1: a free American, like a free Westerner, takes their offers,
[22:20] Speaker 1: and you consider the offers that you have, you consider
[22:23] Speaker 1: the bids that you have, and you sell to the one.
[22:28] Speaker 1: Generally speaking, I think most people are going to sell
[22:31] Speaker 1: to the highest bidder, and they're going to sell to
[22:33] Speaker 1: the to who they choose right, And I would feel
[22:38] Speaker 1: that most Americans, most Westerners would be like that makes
[22:43] Speaker 1: sense to me. I think, yeah, they think they did
[22:48] Speaker 1: not if but oftentimes not if you guys buy it,
[22:51] Speaker 1: which to me is so weird because people like get
[22:56] Speaker 1: it's an ass like like I mean, just like frankly,
[23:00] Speaker 1: anyone doing any kind of major thing, like it becomes controversial,
[23:04] Speaker 1: like frankly, like you guys, I mean you can't deny it,
[23:07] Speaker 1: like you guys are a like somewhat controversial organization.
[23:12] Speaker 3: I appreciate that qualifier. Yes, yes, no, they are, absolutely,
[23:16] Speaker 3: But it's just.
[23:16] Speaker 1: Like and and I have like all kinds of things
[23:19] Speaker 1: I wonder about, and I'll ask you those questions I
[23:21] Speaker 1: had thinks that I wont about. But it's like, foundationally,
[23:23] Speaker 1: it surprises me how many people are antagonistic to a
[23:27] Speaker 1: principle that they have to broadly support, which is like
[23:32] Speaker 1: that that if you want to sell a thing and
[23:34] Speaker 1: someone wants to buy a thing, whose business is it
[23:37] Speaker 1: besides the seller and the buyer. But people get so
[23:41] Speaker 1: worked up about who's buy It's like, that's not your problem,
[23:45] Speaker 1: Like that's that's kind of a view I have on
[23:47] Speaker 1: it is. I'm surprised that upsets people.
[23:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree with everything you've said. I've got
[23:53] Speaker 2: this nine times now to.
[23:56] Speaker 1: My house and someone bought my house that later someone
[23:58] Speaker 1: will be mad. I'm like, dude, mind your own business
[24:00] Speaker 1: this well.
[24:01] Speaker 2: I think two things can be true, though, Steve. I
[24:04] Speaker 2: think they can say they can say, well, good for
[24:06] Speaker 2: my neighbor. My neighbor found a buyer who will pay
[24:10] Speaker 2: fair market value. My neighbor might have found a buyer
[24:12] Speaker 2: who has has agreed to lease back to them for
[24:16] Speaker 2: a number of years so they can have some transition
[24:19] Speaker 2: their family or transition their operation somewhere else.
[24:23] Speaker 3: They can say, can think, yes.
[24:25] Speaker 2: Good for my buyer, private market transaction, willing buyer, willing seller.
[24:29] Speaker 2: They can also be disappointed and wish that their new
[24:34] Speaker 2: neighbor was you know, was going to be it was
[24:38] Speaker 2: a cattle rancher or or was a different buyer right
[24:41] Speaker 2: and was not American prairie.
[24:43] Speaker 3: So it's it's change.
[24:44] Speaker 1: And if you were, if you were buying for a
[24:47] Speaker 1: data center, then I would understand people being pissed more.
[24:52] Speaker 1: I would better understand people being pissed. But if you
[24:54] Speaker 1: imagine that there's like there's a spectrum. Okay, there's a
[24:59] Speaker 1: spectrum being on one end of the spectrum is data center,
[25:03] Speaker 1: right or like I don't know, a data center, a
[25:09] Speaker 1: nuclear power plant, like whatever. There's a spectrum of refinery.
[25:13] Speaker 3: Okay, even a large residential development.
[25:16] Speaker 1: Maybe big a big residential big residential development. Yeah. Whatever
[25:23] Speaker 1: that's on one end would be like, oh man, that's
[25:26] Speaker 1: a bummer. Right On the other end would be on
[25:29] Speaker 1: the other end would be like habitat preservation and restoration,
[25:34] Speaker 1: which is kind of like a more of a like
[25:36] Speaker 1: it's more of a like doing of not doing on
[25:40] Speaker 1: one end, and then over here is like data center.
[25:46] Speaker 1: And I would say that like running cattle sits very
[25:50] Speaker 1: close to the habitat thing. I'm a Kyle's not condos guy,
[25:53] Speaker 1: So I would put like running cattle over in this area,
[25:57] Speaker 1: data center over in this area out like housing development
[26:03] Speaker 1: this right right. So it's like the fact that you're
[26:06] Speaker 1: the fact that you guys buy land in order to
[26:08] Speaker 1: have it be just kind of like habitat seems to
[26:10] Speaker 1: me like sort of like uh, even like that reinforces
[26:15] Speaker 1: in my mind what would be like a non issue.
[26:18] Speaker 2: Well, I'm really glad you're raising this because I think
[26:22] Speaker 2: most of our neighbors, I know most of our neighbors
[26:25] Speaker 2: don't mind having us as a neighbor.
[26:27] Speaker 3: We have a lot in common.
[26:29] Speaker 2: And of course what gets you know, blown up, it's
[26:31] Speaker 2: the loudest voices is the is the controversy. But whether
[26:36] Speaker 2: there are cows on American prairie's lands or bison, and
[26:40] Speaker 2: there are a lot more cows than bison, and we
[26:42] Speaker 2: can talk about that.
[26:43] Speaker 3: The there's a lot of.
[26:45] Speaker 2: Common ground in the way that we're running our operations.
[26:48] Speaker 2: There's a lot of common uh, love and appreciation and
[26:53] Speaker 2: responsibility for the stewardship of these grasslands, the stewardship of
[26:57] Speaker 2: these grasslands for a lot of different whys, life species.
[27:02] Speaker 2: We're driving, we're buying the same trucks, we're using the
[27:04] Speaker 2: same fencing contractors. It is a there is a lot
[27:08] Speaker 2: a lot of common ground, and you don't you don't
[27:11] Speaker 2: see that common ground necessarily in a slogan, Right.
[27:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, what in your mind, like if you had to
[27:19] Speaker 1: express it to somebody, what what in your mind is
[27:22] Speaker 1: the like what in your mind do people feel as
[27:28] Speaker 1: being lost on this from your perspective, what do they
[27:31] Speaker 1: feel is being lost on this? Like you know, sizable
[27:36] Speaker 1: piece of ground, but but not something on the scale
[27:41] Speaker 1: of like, uh, you know, not even on this it's
[27:43] Speaker 1: not even on the scale of what we have agreed
[27:45] Speaker 1: to be a wildlife refuge.
[27:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's I think it's change, and it's
[27:54] Speaker 2: change that has been occurring on this landscape for decades
[27:58] Speaker 2: and it is.
[28:00] Speaker 3: Perceived as a loss of a way of life.
[28:03] Speaker 2: And there's been consolidation in you know, the consolidation of
[28:08] Speaker 2: land ownership over those decades, there has been uh, you know,
[28:12] Speaker 2: public lands ranching is a very very difficult business.
[28:15] Speaker 3: It's a very difficult business.
[28:17] Speaker 2: And there are a lot of global factors that are
[28:20] Speaker 2: are not that America Preer has nothing to do with,
[28:23] Speaker 2: that are putting pressure on the industry. And then an
[28:27] Speaker 2: organization comes in and UH is the the new kid
[28:31] Speaker 2: on the block. Is UH has different aims for their
[28:35] Speaker 2: their private lands and is bringing in a new species
[28:40] Speaker 2: like like buffalo and and and it represents it represents change.
[28:45] Speaker 1: And I think that's new, a new old.
[28:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, yes, exactly, a new old because because
[28:51] Speaker 2: bison or not, of course new to this landscape. But yeah,
[28:56] Speaker 2: I think I think that's I think that's really at
[28:58] Speaker 2: the root of it.
[29:00] Speaker 1: Hm, what what what do you how? What would you
[29:04] Speaker 1: say in conversation when like you did a great I
[29:07] Speaker 1: appreciate your ability to articulate that. A lot of people
[29:10] Speaker 1: I find don't the aren't comfortable articulating someone else's perspective.
[29:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean I'm not entirely No, I'm not
[29:18] Speaker 2: entirely comfortable too, because I'm I don't I'm I'm not,
[29:22] Speaker 2: you know, native to Phillips County, and I certainly have
[29:25] Speaker 2: spent a lot, a lot of time on that landscape.
[29:28] Speaker 3: And I've I've you know, I know a lot of
[29:32] Speaker 3: our neighbors, our team knows a lot of our neighbors.
[29:34] Speaker 3: I've I've heard the perspective articulated.
[29:37] Speaker 2: So I want to be, you know, somewhat careful of
[29:40] Speaker 2: putting words in people's mouths. But I I also see,
[29:45] Speaker 2: I grew up in a small town, and I know
[29:47] Speaker 2: how much small towns value community, value tradition. And you
[29:54] Speaker 2: see the one room schoolhouses, and you.
[29:56] Speaker 3: See, you know, you you you.
[30:00] Speaker 2: Hear about the traditions that some of which still exists,
[30:03] Speaker 2: that used to happen up there. Like one time we
[30:06] Speaker 2: were at one of the community halls and we're having
[30:08] Speaker 2: a big community feed.
[30:10] Speaker 3: It was really fun.
[30:11] Speaker 2: A bunch of American praier folks were there, and our
[30:14] Speaker 2: neighbors were there, and kids were all running around, and
[30:17] Speaker 2: the kids came out with a pole vault, like we're
[30:20] Speaker 2: in the middle of ranch country. I didn't a pole
[30:23] Speaker 2: vault of all things. And and I learned that there
[30:26] Speaker 2: used to be an event that these these community schools
[30:28] Speaker 2: that was a that was a track meet in or
[30:31] Speaker 2: spelling b in the morning and a track meet in
[30:32] Speaker 2: the afternoon, and like that's a really cool that's a
[30:34] Speaker 2: really cool community tradition right too, amongst all these these
[30:40] Speaker 2: country schools, of which there are not many anymore. And
[30:43] Speaker 2: so you know that human honoring that human heritage in
[30:48] Speaker 2: those kind of life ways on the prairie, whether they're
[30:52] Speaker 2: you know, indigenous and or for thousands of years or
[30:55] Speaker 2: if were there more recent were settling, ranching family for
[31:00] Speaker 2: number of generations, like that is important to American prairie
[31:03] Speaker 2: and recognizing that everyone's still out there and we together
[31:08] Speaker 2: can can look at what what what is the what
[31:12] Speaker 2: is the future of the landscape, What are our shared values?
[31:14] Speaker 2: What do we want this this place to look like?
[31:16] Speaker 2: Those are the conversations that we that we want to
[31:19] Speaker 2: be having.
[31:20] Speaker 1: How many bison do you guys have on the ground
[31:21] Speaker 1: right now?
[31:22] Speaker 3: Nine and forty?
[31:23] Speaker 1: You know how many cattle in the state?
[31:26] Speaker 3: Uh, in this I know it's a lot more than
[31:29] Speaker 3: a lot more cattle than people.
[31:31] Speaker 2: And I know in the it's a couple of million. Yeah,
[31:33] Speaker 2: I was going to say two, nine hundred and forty.
[31:36] Speaker 2: And they're about a half million cattle in the seven
[31:39] Speaker 2: counties where we own land and on American Prairie's properties,
[31:43] Speaker 2: they're eight to ten thousand cattle. Because we're leasing that
[31:46] Speaker 2: we're leasing either to the former owner or leasing to
[31:49] Speaker 2: a neighbor on ten of our twelve units.
[31:53] Speaker 1: Yeah. Can you remind me again the how many deeded
[31:57] Speaker 1: acres you have?
[31:58] Speaker 3: You're about one hundred and seventy thousd in deeded acres.
[32:00] Speaker 1: One hundred and seventy thousand deeded acres. And people you
[32:05] Speaker 1: allow people people can walk across like people can walk
[32:10] Speaker 1: on all that land.
[32:11] Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's all open. Yeah that people can walk.
[32:16] Speaker 2: They can cross always cross a couple of exceptions, like
[32:20] Speaker 2: right by our staff houses, but they can cross deeded
[32:23] Speaker 2: land to get to public land. We have dispersed camping,
[32:27] Speaker 2: and we can talk about that how how we open access.
[32:34] Speaker 2: But you know, we have eighty thousand acres enrolled in
[32:38] Speaker 2: block management in Montana in on those properties, So I.
[32:43] Speaker 1: Want to talk about that.
[32:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, we can talk about that.
[32:45] Speaker 1: I want to talk about the walking part though, just
[32:46] Speaker 1: for a minute, okay. Meaning if someone's going along on
[32:50] Speaker 1: on X, their cruising along and on X they see
[32:54] Speaker 1: all the land OWNERSHI would say American prairie. Right, So
[32:57] Speaker 1: if you see American prairie on on X, you'd able
[33:00] Speaker 1: to park. You can park your car and go walk around.
[33:02] Speaker 2: Yes.
[33:02] Speaker 1: Absolutely, no one's gonna yell at you.
[33:05] Speaker 3: No one's gonna yell at you. No, Okay, they're going
[33:07] Speaker 3: to welcome.
[33:08] Speaker 1: You on the on the land that you have grazing leases.
[33:15] Speaker 1: The only thing you really have access to is you
[33:17] Speaker 1: just have the leasing right.
[33:18] Speaker 3: If you have, it's a leasing privilege.
[33:20] Speaker 1: Yeah, leasing privilege meaning if if you have a lease
[33:23] Speaker 1: on BLM land, that doesn't have any factor on someone
[33:27] Speaker 1: going hunting birds on the BLM land doing whatever. Yeah,
[33:31] Speaker 1: it's just like great, your public lands. So when someone says,
[33:33] Speaker 1: when you say you have federal lands that are leased
[33:38] Speaker 1: b OLM lands, that are leased. What that means is
[33:42] Speaker 1: you have like you have like an exclusivity around grazing livestock. Yes, yes,
[33:48] Speaker 1: and that's it. It's not like you don't have like
[33:51] Speaker 1: like it doesn't come with mineral rights, it doesn't come
[33:54] Speaker 1: with with exclusive hunting rights. It's just is grazing.
[33:57] Speaker 3: That's that's exactly right, that's exactly right.
[34:00] Speaker 2: In this part of of well, across the west, but
[34:04] Speaker 2: particularly in this part of Montana, most ranching operations are made.
[34:10] Speaker 2: Their ranching operations are made up of about a third
[34:13] Speaker 2: deeded private acres and two thirds least acres, primarily Beila,
[34:18] Speaker 2: but there are state sections in there as well. And
[34:23] Speaker 2: the ranching operation depends on both that private land and
[34:27] Speaker 2: that public land. But as the owner of what's called
[34:32] Speaker 2: the base property, you have that preferential grazing privilege on
[34:36] Speaker 2: those associated public lands and the ten year renewable grazing
[34:40] Speaker 2: land renewable.
[34:41] Speaker 1: So when you buy a ranch, if that ranch has
[34:44] Speaker 1: a lease, the least transfers to the new buyer, exactly God,
[34:48] Speaker 1: And that's good until you if you renew it or not.
[34:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to be a you have to pay
[34:53] Speaker 2: your grazing fees. Fees and be a good steward of
[34:55] Speaker 2: those lands and take care of that range land.
[34:58] Speaker 3: But yes, it's it. It continues to renew as long
[35:01] Speaker 3: as that you meet those conditions.
[35:04] Speaker 1: Can can you explain it for me what I kind
[35:08] Speaker 1: of I mostly understand it, but I'd like to hear
[35:10] Speaker 1: you explain it. In the news lately, there's been this
[35:14] Speaker 1: this this I don't want to call it, there's been
[35:17] Speaker 1: this like policy shift of saying that if you lease
[35:22] Speaker 1: land and run, if you leave, if you have a
[35:26] Speaker 1: grazing lease, historically you would be able to graze, uh
[35:34] Speaker 1: buffalo on that ground. But there's a move now to
[35:38] Speaker 1: make it that you cannot. Yes, that's got to be just,
[35:44] Speaker 1: that's got to be just because that's got to be
[35:46] Speaker 1: just directed at you.
[35:47] Speaker 3: Right, Oh, yes it is. Yes, it's directed just at us.
[35:51] Speaker 1: So that will not come up.
[35:53] Speaker 2: So going back to going back to and then we're
[35:56] Speaker 2: right in the middle of this. So the final decision
[35:59] Speaker 2: has not come out. There's a proposed decision from the
[36:02] Speaker 2: from the BLM. So this this grazing regime that I
[36:08] Speaker 2: just talked about, ties back to the nineteen thirty four
[36:11] Speaker 2: Grazing Act, the Taylor Grazing Act of nineteen thirty four,
[36:14] Speaker 2: and that Grazing Act was to to sort of make
[36:19] Speaker 2: sure we're taking good care of our range lands in
[36:23] Speaker 2: the West, and that's what established started this precedent of
[36:26] Speaker 2: these grazing privileges tied to base properties, the Taylor Grazing
[36:31] Speaker 2: Act and the and it's to support the livestock industry.
[36:36] Speaker 2: And that the Tailor Grazing Act, though does not say
[36:40] Speaker 2: what species, and bison have been Bison our livestock in Montana.
[36:46] Speaker 2: So important thing to say is that American Perrie's bison
[36:49] Speaker 2: are livestock and they are our private property.
[36:53] Speaker 3: We pay the.
[36:53] Speaker 2: Livestock taxes on those, we pay obviously the grazing fees.
[36:57] Speaker 2: And we are not alone on in raising bison on
[37:01] Speaker 2: public lands. And so American Prairie has been permitted to
[37:05] Speaker 2: graze bison as livestock after environmental assessment is done on the.
[37:12] Speaker 3: Affected lands.
[37:13] Speaker 2: We've been we have been permitted to do that since
[37:18] Speaker 2: two thousand and five, so twenty years. And bison have
[37:22] Speaker 2: been grazing on public lands for forty years, and they
[37:25] Speaker 2: have been grazing in six states and there are about
[37:29] Speaker 2: forty permittees across those six states who are grazing bison
[37:35] Speaker 2: on these public lands.
[37:37] Speaker 1: And that's been happening for forty years.
[37:38] Speaker 2: It's been happening for forty years. For American prairier, it's
[37:40] Speaker 2: been happening for twenty years.
[37:43] Speaker 1: I need to pause on a thing just to help
[37:45] Speaker 1: listeners on this is the thing I talk about frequently,
[37:47] Speaker 1: but just to help listeners understand the thing is we
[37:50] Speaker 1: recently covered on the podcast this interesting move that Colorado made.
[37:57] Speaker 1: Colorado passed legislation that says if a if a buffalo
[38:03] Speaker 1: walks into the state of Colorado, like naturally walks in
[38:07] Speaker 1: on his own four hoofs, he's wildlife. Okay, but that
[38:14] Speaker 1: but that designation of them coming in from a like
[38:18] Speaker 1: walking in his wildlife. That designation doesn't impact privately owned ones,
[38:23] Speaker 1: which are regulated as livestock. Montana doesn't have an equivalent law.
[38:30] Speaker 1: Wyoming doesn't have an equivalent law to that, meaning when
[38:34] Speaker 1: they're on when they're in the state, they're regarded as
[38:38] Speaker 1: a livestock animal. This is me talking and not you talking.
[38:43] Speaker 1: Like I wholeheartedly disagree with that, like I think that,
[38:46] Speaker 1: I think that other states. And again this is Steve,
[38:49] Speaker 1: not Alison saying this. I would love to see like
[38:54] Speaker 1: Montana could be doing a lot more. Wyoming could be
[38:56] Speaker 1: doing a lot more to create room for buffalo to
[39:02] Speaker 1: be wildlife. They can be doing a lot more to
[39:04] Speaker 1: create buffalo space for them as a wildlife species, which
[39:07] Speaker 1: they are, but they're not legally regarded as wildlife. But
[39:11] Speaker 1: your point being, I think is important understand is that
[39:14] Speaker 1: you guys have animals. You have bison, but your bison
[39:20] Speaker 1: are like a they're legally livestock and so they're registered
[39:26] Speaker 1: as livestock. Like you have to be like each one
[39:30] Speaker 1: is a registered creature.
[39:31] Speaker 3: Well, we have to meet all the disease requirements and
[39:34] Speaker 3: they are fenced obviously, and we're meeting.
[39:37] Speaker 2: All the requirements of the Montana Department of Livestock. Yeah,
[39:41] Speaker 2: I think.
[39:41] Speaker 1: What I think a difference is you got you know
[39:43] Speaker 1: what it might be, and I want to continue, but
[39:45] Speaker 1: it's like part of the thing is you guys, uh
[39:50] Speaker 1: in my I in my view, there's a sort of
[39:54] Speaker 1: that you perceive of them as like you perceive of
[39:58] Speaker 1: them as wildlife, you're still able to imagine them as wildlife.
[40:05] Speaker 2: We manage them, and we absolutely manage them. We manage
[40:12] Speaker 2: them for their for their wild characteristics, in their display
[40:17] Speaker 2: of wild characteristics. But we are disease testing them, we
[40:21] Speaker 2: are vaccinating them, we are keeping them home, we are
[40:25] Speaker 2: paying attention to stocking rates. We are remote, We're rounding
[40:28] Speaker 2: them up and running them through our handling facility, following
[40:33] Speaker 2: low stress techniques for sure, so that both we're paying
[40:36] Speaker 2: a lot of attention to human safety and animal safety,
[40:39] Speaker 2: but we are absolutely managing them. But this is you're
[40:43] Speaker 2: getting at the root of what the BLM is now said,
[40:46] Speaker 2: which is that our bison are not production animals and
[40:50] Speaker 2: they have not defined production they've never used a production
[40:53] Speaker 2: standard in the past. But they are saying they're arguing
[40:56] Speaker 2: that because our animals are not production animals, that that's
[41:01] Speaker 2: why they're proposing changing these bison grazing permits back to
[41:06] Speaker 2: cattle only grazing permits.
[41:08] Speaker 1: So just I want to make sure because I kind
[41:10] Speaker 1: of like made let's go off on that little livestock
[41:13] Speaker 1: wildlife thing, just just to get to re clarify a
[41:19] Speaker 1: point you made that forty years ago someone allowed. It
[41:25] Speaker 1: was decided that if you had a grazing a federal
[41:28] Speaker 1: grazing least, meaning you have the you have the right
[41:31] Speaker 1: to run your livestock on federally managed public land, say
[41:37] Speaker 1: BLM BLM ground. The BLM ground stays open to everybody.
[41:43] Speaker 1: You still hunt and hang out, do whatever you want
[41:44] Speaker 1: to do on there, but someone has the right to
[41:46] Speaker 1: graze it with their animals. Forty years ago, you could
[41:50] Speaker 1: your animals could be cattle, your animals could be bison, they.
[41:53] Speaker 3: Could be goats, they could be sheep.
[41:55] Speaker 1: Okay, yep on that thing. Time goes on and someone
[42:02] Speaker 1: right very recently is like, hey, wait a minute, I
[42:08] Speaker 1: don't like what's going on. I don't like this whole
[42:12] Speaker 1: bison thing going on up here. We should have it
[42:16] Speaker 1: be that that doesn't count.
[42:18] Speaker 2: Yes, And more specifically, in twenty nineteen, we put we
[42:25] Speaker 2: put in for a change of use request to change
[42:28] Speaker 2: to bison on six six federal allotments, and the BLM
[42:33] Speaker 2: did a three year environmental analysis to determine that yes,
[42:39] Speaker 2: American Prairie could have these bison grazing permits on these
[42:43] Speaker 2: six allotments. Allotments are what the what the chunks of
[42:46] Speaker 2: BLM land are called. And they made that decision in
[42:51] Speaker 2: July of twenty twenty two.
[42:52] Speaker 1: Okay, what did the chatter? What does the environmental impact
[42:55] Speaker 1: statement turn up?
[42:58] Speaker 3: It turned up that the bison are good for the land.
[43:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that that that that of course, you know,
[43:08] Speaker 2: the environmental impacts are are are good for the land,
[43:11] Speaker 2: and that the associo uh, the social and economic impacts
[43:16] Speaker 2: are are are good to basically, so they they did
[43:19] Speaker 2: a very thorough analysis. There was a public comment period. Obviously,
[43:23] Speaker 2: it was a three year process, so it was it
[43:26] Speaker 2: was thorough. And then that was immediately challenged by by
[43:31] Speaker 2: the Governor's office and a number of state agencies and
[43:34] Speaker 2: the Montana stock Growers. We were winning those challenges in
[43:39] Speaker 2: administrative court, and then the Bureau of Land Management pulled
[43:42] Speaker 2: back their decision and January said we're going to reevaluate this.
[43:46] Speaker 2: And then the following January, just this year, came out
[43:51] Speaker 2: with this new decision, with this new production requirement, with
[43:56] Speaker 2: this new way of looking at livestock, and just very
[44:01] Speaker 2: clickly nothing changed about our management, nothing changed about the
[44:04] Speaker 2: conditions on the ground. They are reinterpreting their own laws
[44:09] Speaker 2: and and and with a very thin fact pattern and
[44:16] Speaker 2: uh and you know, no legal precedents because this that
[44:20] Speaker 2: some of this has been challenged in the courts over
[44:21] Speaker 2: that those forty years and bison were an acceptable grazer
[44:27] Speaker 2: on these federal lands, and now they're proposing that they're not.
[44:30] Speaker 2: And I think one of the what we've seen is
[44:34] Speaker 2: that others are stepping forward to say, wait a minute,
[44:38] Speaker 2: what kind of precedent does this set if you are
[44:40] Speaker 2: building your business? And American Prairie's bison program is not inexpensive.
[44:44] Speaker 2: We've spent, we're spending We've spent hundreds of thousands of
[44:47] Speaker 2: dollars on fencing. We're spending we've spent millions and millions
[44:50] Speaker 2: of dollars on this program, and it's important part of
[44:54] Speaker 2: our business. But we've made a number of business decisions.
[44:57] Speaker 2: We've made commitments to other conservation herds to distribute animals,
[45:02] Speaker 2: and so we've built a lot of our We made
[45:05] Speaker 2: a lot of business decisions right based on.
[45:08] Speaker 3: The way things had been.
[45:11] Speaker 2: And so do you hear people making that slippery slope argument,
[45:15] Speaker 2: like what's to say keep a future administration from just
[45:19] Speaker 2: arbitrarily changing the rules and what does this mean for
[45:23] Speaker 2: other bison herds? And the Coalition of Large Tribes wrote
[45:28] Speaker 2: a compelling protests saying what impact could this have on
[45:34] Speaker 2: tribal herds?
[45:35] Speaker 3: And do the.
[45:37] Speaker 1: Tribes have herds that graze on federal lands.
[45:39] Speaker 2: They do, they do, and they recognize that. They also
[45:43] Speaker 2: recognize that American Prairie has you know, we're not an
[45:47] Speaker 2: indigenous led organization, but we are part of this brison
[45:50] Speaker 2: conservation family right team, continent wide, and we have distributed,
[45:55] Speaker 2: as I mentioned, six hundred and sixty bison to other
[45:59] Speaker 2: conservation hurts. There's a lot of exchange of genetics, exchange
[46:03] Speaker 2: of animals. We've helped start conservation herds. And so if
[46:06] Speaker 2: you take you hamstring American Prairie's ability to do that,
[46:11] Speaker 2: the tribes pointed that out. They also pointed out that
[46:14] Speaker 2: American Prairie's management back to your point about the way
[46:20] Speaker 2: that we manage our bison, for you know, minimal handling,
[46:24] Speaker 2: low stocking, rates as natural the landscape as possible, that
[46:27] Speaker 2: that that is in the that is in the indigenous
[46:31] Speaker 2: tradition and that and the protest even says that, but that,
[46:35] Speaker 2: you know, the American Prairie's way of managing is similar
[46:41] Speaker 2: to the way that tribal herds are managed.
[46:44] Speaker 1: What uh on? The thing that the productions question and
[46:51] Speaker 1: forgive me from not understanding the proposal, the change, like
[46:55] Speaker 1: the wording change, is the gripe that it's is the
[46:59] Speaker 1: gripe that it's or is the gripe that it's not
[47:02] Speaker 1: that it's not that they're not being raised with meat
[47:05] Speaker 1: production in mind.
[47:06] Speaker 2: The latter more the latter, Okay, yeah, yeah, they're saying, yeah,
[47:10] Speaker 2: they're saying that that they need to be production animals,
[47:17] Speaker 2: and so their their disregard. So our response to this
[47:21] Speaker 2: protest was, this production standard is brand new. It's nowhere
[47:27] Speaker 2: in the regulations or the case law. But if there
[47:33] Speaker 2: was a production standard, what is that production standard? Because
[47:38] Speaker 2: not only is American Prairie distributing these animals to other herds,
[47:43] Speaker 2: other herds, many of whom are are food sovereignty herds,
[47:46] Speaker 2: so are absolutely.
[47:47] Speaker 3: You know, those animals are consumed.
[47:49] Speaker 2: American Prarie also has a robust public harvest program and
[47:53] Speaker 2: we have three hundred and seventy of our animals have
[47:56] Speaker 2: been harvested by the public, and that's.
[48:00] Speaker 3: Tens of thousands of pounds of meat. And so.
[48:04] Speaker 2: This idea that the BLM is going to come in
[48:07] Speaker 2: and dictate exactly how you manage your animals for production,
[48:14] Speaker 2: and they're only going to do it for this one species,
[48:15] Speaker 2: for cows. They're not going to do it for bison
[48:17] Speaker 2: or for excuse me, for bison, They're not going to
[48:20] Speaker 2: do it for cows. Is is really hard to get
[48:23] Speaker 2: your head around, right, Calibroducers are like are going some
[48:28] Speaker 2: calibrators are reducing their stocking rates for conservation purposes? Right?
[48:33] Speaker 3: Does that is it?
[48:34] Speaker 2: Would that make their would they not be meeting some
[48:37] Speaker 2: sort of standard? So that's that's our argument is this
[48:43] Speaker 2: isn't anywhere in the case law, This isn't anywhere in
[48:47] Speaker 2: the regulations, and what does production even mean?
[48:52] Speaker 1: So what will happen next on this whole thing?
[48:54] Speaker 2: So there was a fifteen day protest period. We protested,
[48:59] Speaker 2: as I mentioned a number of other organizations, and then
[49:03] Speaker 2: the BLM has forty five days to issue a final decision.
[49:07] Speaker 2: That final decision could come down any day now, and
[49:10] Speaker 2: then we will, you know, assuming that their final decision
[49:15] Speaker 2: is the same as their proposed decision, we will we
[49:18] Speaker 2: will challenge this in both the administrative and the federal courts.
[49:22] Speaker 1: What do you think that what do you think the
[49:23] Speaker 1: final decision is going to be same?
[49:24] Speaker 3: Yeah, we think it's going to be the same.
[49:28] Speaker 1: Just sticking it to you.
[49:30] Speaker 2: You know, I, Steve, I what I do want to
[49:32] Speaker 2: focus on is that right now those animals are out
[49:36] Speaker 2: on the same lands that we have not had to
[49:39] Speaker 2: change our operations.
[49:40] Speaker 3: We have contingency plans.
[49:41] Speaker 2: We have contingency plans A through F right and they're
[49:45] Speaker 2: expensive and their time consuming, but we have a plan
[49:49] Speaker 2: to take care of those animals and to do so safely.
[49:53] Speaker 2: And we're our missions moving forward, right We're going to
[49:56] Speaker 2: continue to buy habitat, We're going to continue to welcome
[49:59] Speaker 2: the public that habitat, We're going to continue to restore habitat,
[50:02] Speaker 2: We're going to continue to raise bison. So while it
[50:07] Speaker 2: may look in the public sphere like this is all
[50:10] Speaker 2: American Purrier is focused on right now, it is. It
[50:12] Speaker 2: is far from what all we are focused on right now.
[50:14] Speaker 2: We're focused on moving our mission forward. And I think
[50:18] Speaker 2: that's been one of the most comforting things about being
[50:24] Speaker 2: part of this organization.
[50:25] Speaker 3: Leading this organization.
[50:26] Speaker 2: We get to look decades down the road.
[50:30] Speaker 1: It's still a kick to the nuts, though, but I
[50:32] Speaker 1: understand you guys still keep looking forward though. Yeah, I
[50:35] Speaker 1: mean this has been it's been fascinating to watch man.
[50:38] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean yeah, probably not that's right the
[50:40] Speaker 1: word you would use for it.
[50:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's it's a it's a it's a hiccup,
[50:44] Speaker 2: it's a hurdle, it's it's expensive, you know, it's time consuming,
[50:52] Speaker 2: but we're we're committed to buy some conservation.
[50:58] Speaker 1: Let's talk about the access programming state. Yeah, Okay, I'm
[51:03] Speaker 1: gonna tell you a bunch of stuff you already know
[51:04] Speaker 1: because I'm just telling the listeners. This. In the state
[51:07] Speaker 1: of Montana, like like like, like many states, the state
[51:09] Speaker 1: has an access They have a handful of access programs,
[51:12] Speaker 1: hunting access programs. One of their hunting access they're kind
[51:14] Speaker 1: of the main marquee hunting access programs called the block
[51:17] Speaker 1: management program where you have again, this is like a
[51:22] Speaker 1: willing willing seller, willing buyer situation. Uh. The state Fishing
[51:29] Speaker 1: Game Agency, they raise funds. They fund their agency through
[51:35] Speaker 1: hunting license sales, tags and stamps. Right. Uh, they're able
[51:41] Speaker 1: to take some of that money that they get from
[51:43] Speaker 1: selling hunting licenses. I think a big chunk of the
[51:47] Speaker 1: funding comes from selling non resident hunting licenses, and they're
[51:50] Speaker 1: able to they make a pool of money. If a
[51:54] Speaker 1: landowner is willing to allow hunting access on their land,
[51:59] Speaker 1: they can they can get compensated by the state, right, Okay,
[52:05] Speaker 1: So then a public hunter can wind up. They're they're
[52:11] Speaker 1: administered in different ways, like you need to get some
[52:13] Speaker 1: of you just go out and hunt. You sign up
[52:15] Speaker 1: at a sign up box. Some you need to get
[52:17] Speaker 1: a reservation. But however it works. They're administered in different ways,
[52:19] Speaker 1: but however it works. The hunter, no cost to them,
[52:23] Speaker 1: is able to go a hunt. These block management lands
[52:28] Speaker 1: usually usually some usually a lot of agricultural lands, ranch land,
[52:31] Speaker 1: farm country. No cost to them. The state compensates the landowner.
[52:37] Speaker 1: You guys, do you guys have some enrollment in black management?
[52:43] Speaker 1: What's like like sort of like organizationally, what is your
[52:46] Speaker 1: what is your attitude about the black management program and enrollment, like,
[52:50] Speaker 1: like how do you side what's how do you decide
[52:52] Speaker 1: what's in, what's out? How much is in? How much
[52:55] Speaker 1: is out?
[52:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, philosophically, what we would like to
[53:02] Speaker 2: see over time is larger wildlife populations on these lands.
[53:08] Speaker 2: They're not at their ecological carrying capacity. We fully support hunting.
[53:14] Speaker 2: We provide a lot of hunting access, and what we're
[53:16] Speaker 2: going for is a quality hunt, right, So fewer people
[53:23] Speaker 2: quality hunt, right. So we have a group within the
[53:27] Speaker 2: organization called park the Public Access and Recreation Committee, and
[53:32] Speaker 2: any time and they they set they set or make
[53:37] Speaker 2: our public access policies, whether that's about what roads are open,
[53:41] Speaker 2: what hunting access is allowed, what species are allowed on
[53:44] Speaker 2: a particular property. And they're using a lot of data
[53:47] Speaker 2: and input from f to BP and from others to
[53:50] Speaker 2: make those to make those recommendations for those properties, and
[53:53] Speaker 2: then those go to the leadership team to approve. So
[53:56] Speaker 2: anytime we buy a new property, and we bought six
[53:59] Speaker 2: last year, they spend about a year getting to know
[54:03] Speaker 2: that property right, getting to know the roads, getting to
[54:05] Speaker 2: know the infrastructure, working with the less see whether that's
[54:08] Speaker 2: the existing LESSI or a new LESSI, and understanding how
[54:12] Speaker 2: we're going to open it up to the public. But
[54:14] Speaker 2: within a year, our goal is to open that property
[54:17] Speaker 2: up to the public.
[54:18] Speaker 3: And so each of.
[54:19] Speaker 2: Our units has a has a different has a different
[54:24] Speaker 2: different management. A lot of it is what's called type
[54:26] Speaker 2: two block management. Type one is the sign in box.
[54:30] Speaker 2: Type two is call in and make a reservation. So
[54:33] Speaker 2: right now we have about eighty thousand acres enrolled in
[54:36] Speaker 2: block management, which makes us I believe it's the tenth
[54:39] Speaker 2: largest participant in the entire state in the block management program.
[54:44] Speaker 2: So you can go at our website really clearly spells
[54:47] Speaker 2: out which properties you know, what the what hunting is
[54:52] Speaker 2: allowed on the properties, how to make a reservation, and
[54:54] Speaker 2: F TOPP is a great partner in managing all of that.
[54:57] Speaker 3: We've done.
[54:58] Speaker 2: We have one property where we manage the hunting access
[55:01] Speaker 2: ourselves and we've experimented with this in the past and
[55:04] Speaker 2: having a partner like F TOBP to do that, to
[55:09] Speaker 2: manage it, to take those calls, to make those reservations,
[55:13] Speaker 2: let alone to do the the enforcement, have the wardens
[55:16] Speaker 2: on the ground. That's that's tremendously beneficial to us.
[55:20] Speaker 1: One of the things that makes one of the things
[55:22] Speaker 1: that makes black management work is it gives the a
[55:27] Speaker 1: landowner can sign up in degrees. Yes, okay, So let's
[55:31] Speaker 1: say you're a landowner and for whatever reason you have,
[55:34] Speaker 1: you know, you have a thing where you could never
[55:37] Speaker 1: imagine any scenario on which someone hurting a turkey was acceptable.
[55:42] Speaker 1: You had like a great affinity for turkeys. You could
[55:46] Speaker 1: say that, hey, I want to do black management, but
[55:48] Speaker 1: here's the deal, no turkeys, right, and the state's going
[55:52] Speaker 1: to go along. There's a I believe there's a point
[55:55] Speaker 1: at which the restrictions get so great that they don't
[55:59] Speaker 1: that that is that it's not worth the participation for them. Yes, yes,
[56:03] Speaker 1: but but but you guys are but American prairie though
[56:08] Speaker 1: you have a lot of things, like your restrictions are
[56:13] Speaker 1: much different than the state's hunting restrictions, Like you have
[56:16] Speaker 1: big areas that are open to black management, but they're
[56:18] Speaker 1: not open to mule deer.
[56:19] Speaker 3: Yes, I was gonna use meal deer as an example.
[56:21] Speaker 3: That's you.
[56:22] Speaker 2: I think it was with Saner Heinrich that you were
[56:23] Speaker 2: talking about mual deer populations, right, So it's I believe
[56:28] Speaker 2: it's north of the River region six where we don't
[56:31] Speaker 2: allow any meal deer hunting, and that's because of what
[56:33] Speaker 2: the data says about the meal deer populations. So yeah,
[56:37] Speaker 2: we're making those species determinations on a on a property
[56:44] Speaker 2: by property basis, but we're allowing a lot of access
[56:48] Speaker 2: and thousands and thousands and thousands of hundred days each year.
[56:52] Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead, Oh no, no, I imagine that as you see,
[56:58] Speaker 1: like across the West, as we see white tail numbers
[57:02] Speaker 1: like just generally broad like wide scale increase in white
[57:08] Speaker 1: tail numbers decrease and milder numbers. Most your lands are
[57:13] Speaker 1: open for white tails. Most of your lands are closed
[57:17] Speaker 1: for meal deer, even if the state is allowing mildier
[57:20] Speaker 1: hunts in those areas. Yeah, now what like, is most
[57:24] Speaker 1: of the stuff open for pheasant m yep, because that
[57:27] Speaker 1: would be easy because it's a non native bird.
[57:29] Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, most of the stuff.
[57:31] Speaker 2: There's we have some incredible l hunting opportunities, uh in
[57:36] Speaker 2: the Larb Hills in Region six. We actually that's the
[57:39] Speaker 2: one we manage on our own.
[57:41] Speaker 1: We do.
[57:42] Speaker 3: We do a.
[57:42] Speaker 2: Special draw that's a special draw district within for F
[57:46] Speaker 2: to BP and then we allow I think it's about
[57:50] Speaker 2: eighteen opportunities and that is a coveted opportunity. There's some
[57:56] Speaker 2: youth opportunities in there. But so yeah, it's property by property.
[58:01] Speaker 2: It is a year, year by year, but it all
[58:04] Speaker 2: reflects our commitment to hunting and to public access.
[58:10] Speaker 1: How does it normally work? How like, if you guys
[58:14] Speaker 1: did six land acquisitions last year, what's your sort of
[58:18] Speaker 1: batting average on land acquisitions? I mean, like how many
[58:22] Speaker 1: like in the area where you're operating, how many listings
[58:26] Speaker 1: are there in a year? Would you say, yeah, and
[58:30] Speaker 1: of those listings, how many are you interested in? And
[58:33] Speaker 1: of the ones you're interested in, how many do you close?
[58:38] Speaker 3: So six was a lot of transactions for us. That
[58:42] Speaker 3: was a very big year.
[58:43] Speaker 2: We added about seventy eight thousand acres through those six
[58:48] Speaker 2: transactions last year. And I definitely want to talk a
[58:52] Speaker 2: bit about the Anchor Ranch because that was the biggest
[58:54] Speaker 2: of those of those transactions. That sixty seven thousand of
[58:57] Speaker 2: those seventy eight thousand acres was the the Anchor Ranch.
[59:02] Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know how to We're not
[59:06] Speaker 2: talking about a lot of properties, right, Like, on average,
[59:09] Speaker 2: we've probably been adding two three properties per year. There
[59:16] Speaker 2: is often competition for those properties. We don't get every
[59:20] Speaker 2: single one of them. And you know, in some cases,
[59:24] Speaker 2: these are family decisions that are that are made over
[59:28] Speaker 2: whether it's a resident landowner or an out of state landowner.
[59:32] Speaker 2: They're decisions that are made out over a number of years. Right,
[59:37] Speaker 2: So a number of these properties we've been talking to
[59:40] Speaker 2: landowner for for a number of years.
[59:42] Speaker 3: So it's hard to it's hard to say sort of
[59:44] Speaker 3: like you know, the.
[59:47] Speaker 2: Sample size is so small, it's hard to say a
[59:49] Speaker 2: true batting average.
[59:51] Speaker 3: But hopefully that's a little bit helpful.
[59:53] Speaker 1: But some presumably some don't work out.
[59:56] Speaker 3: Yeah, they don't work out.
[59:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, the landowner wants a price that we that is
[59:59] Speaker 2: not fair market value, and we're not we're not willing
[1:00:01] Speaker 2: to pay it.
[1:00:02] Speaker 1: How often do you run into a landowner that would
[1:00:04] Speaker 1: be like, hey, your BID's higher, but I'm choosing to
[1:00:10] Speaker 1: accept less money from a traditional cattle rancher.
[1:00:15] Speaker 2: I mean, we don't because none of this is public information.
[1:00:18] Speaker 2: We don't know what other people are paying, right right.
[1:00:22] Speaker 2: We know what we know a lot about the market
[1:00:25] Speaker 2: from from appraisal data. We know a lot about the
[1:00:28] Speaker 2: market from brokers. We're spending a lot of time figuring
[1:00:32] Speaker 2: out sort of what is the the the truth, the
[1:00:35] Speaker 2: fair market value we're getting appraisals. We have no interest
[1:00:40] Speaker 2: in paying above fair market value because we have more
[1:00:44] Speaker 2: property to buy and we have to raise every single
[1:00:46] Speaker 2: dollar that goes into to each of those of those acquisitions.
[1:00:51] Speaker 1: What's your like, what's the organization's like timeline? Like how
[1:00:56] Speaker 1: long you This is going to lead to another question
[1:01:00] Speaker 1: and like what is the plan? But like like how
[1:01:02] Speaker 1: long are you guys? Do you know what I mean? Like,
[1:01:06] Speaker 1: how long can you imagine being solvent and like continuing
[1:01:10] Speaker 1: the mission for do you know what I'm saying.
[1:01:15] Speaker 2: I mean we we intend to we intend to fulfill
[1:01:17] Speaker 2: the mission of the organization.
[1:01:19] Speaker 1: And yes, like in all seriousness, if you had to say,
[1:01:22] Speaker 1: like it'll take, it would take like roughly how long.
[1:01:24] Speaker 2: Oh, the acquisition phase will be additional decades, more decades,
[1:01:30] Speaker 2: more decades.
[1:01:30] Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, more decades. As the land comes available, we
[1:01:35] Speaker 3: will purchase it.
[1:01:36] Speaker 2: And in the meantime we will continue to steward and
[1:01:42] Speaker 2: restore and open to the public what we what we have,
[1:01:46] Speaker 2: But there is not you know there.
[1:01:49] Speaker 3: I think what what.
[1:01:51] Speaker 2: I've always appreciated on American period is that there are
[1:01:53] Speaker 2: a lot of ways to measure progress. There are a
[1:01:56] Speaker 2: lot of numbers that I could throw at you, whether
[1:01:58] Speaker 2: that's you know what the the most obvious, of course
[1:02:01] Speaker 2: is acres added. But we track visitor nights, like we
[1:02:05] Speaker 2: have two campgrounds and a series of public huts. They're
[1:02:10] Speaker 2: open to the public, and that those numbers are increasing
[1:02:13] Speaker 2: every year we have because last year about six hundred
[1:02:16] Speaker 2: six six hundred overnight visitors at our properties. So we
[1:02:21] Speaker 2: are tracking miles of stream restored, We're tracking fence removal,
[1:02:27] Speaker 2: and fence conversion. We have we have a staff member
[1:02:30] Speaker 2: who tracks the tonnage of metal that he's removing from
[1:02:37] Speaker 2: the prairie, right because part of you know, the the
[1:02:40] Speaker 2: d sort of juncifying the landscape. You know, that's when
[1:02:44] Speaker 2: you're removing an old dump or you know, you're auctioning
[1:02:48] Speaker 2: off an old building that's not needed anymore. Like we're
[1:02:52] Speaker 2: we're measuring that. So there are a lot of ways
[1:02:54] Speaker 2: to measure progress, and we're not holding ourselves. We don't
[1:02:57] Speaker 2: need to hold ourselves to a firm timeline to complete
[1:03:02] Speaker 2: the acquisition. Obviously, the longer it takes, more expensive it is,
[1:03:05] Speaker 2: and the more money we need to raise. But it's
[1:03:11] Speaker 2: it's not like on an annual basis or even a
[1:03:13] Speaker 2: five year basis. We certainly set goals, but but some
[1:03:17] Speaker 2: of those some of those milestones are or target milestones
[1:03:21] Speaker 2: are are not in our control.
[1:03:22] Speaker 3: And that's okay.
[1:03:23] Speaker 1: You realize visitation can backfire, right, I mean that was
[1:03:26] Speaker 1: like that like with Yellowstone, Dude, it's like Yellowstones like
[1:03:29] Speaker 1: a nightmare.
[1:03:31] Speaker 3: Oh, I mean I live in the state.
[1:03:32] Speaker 1: I know that, but like that needs to be turned
[1:03:34] Speaker 1: into a wilderness area there there every time my whole plan.
[1:03:40] Speaker 1: It's big, a big trailhead. I'm going to keep anything
[1:03:42] Speaker 1: that any highway that goes through it, I'm going to keep.
[1:03:46] Speaker 1: This is if I'm ever emperor. Okay, the bisecting highways
[1:03:50] Speaker 1: I'll keep open. I would dismantle all the infrastructure. I
[1:03:55] Speaker 1: would keep the highways that go through open. I would
[1:03:57] Speaker 1: put in large trail heads here and there, and the
[1:03:59] Speaker 1: whole thing be a wilderness area, just unpark it. It's
[1:04:04] Speaker 1: a very controversial idea, no, I mean very constru I
[1:04:08] Speaker 1: was going to say, my kid's been yelled at because
[1:04:10] Speaker 1: I have this viewpoint. Your dad wants to but he
[1:04:13] Speaker 1: doesn't understand what wilderness area is. It would be, it
[1:04:16] Speaker 1: would be it would protect the park more. You follow me.
[1:04:20] Speaker 1: I'm just saying visitation can backfire. I mean that place
[1:04:23] Speaker 1: is a case. Oh oh yeah.
[1:04:24] Speaker 2: But there they have four was it five million visitors
[1:04:28] Speaker 2: last year and we're talking maybe ten thousand.
[1:04:31] Speaker 1: So ten billions. Let me know what I might warrant.
[1:04:36] Speaker 2: That's the point you're making, which is you can be
[1:04:40] Speaker 2: really thoughtful about where you put infrastructure. And you know,
[1:04:43] Speaker 2: I did a tour of Yellowstone, sort of behind the
[1:04:46] Speaker 2: scenes tour, and I was reminded that that figure eight
[1:04:50] Speaker 2: road and the lot the placement of lodge is is
[1:04:53] Speaker 2: because that's how long a carriage ride was. That was
[1:04:56] Speaker 2: seventeen miles, nineteen miles, And so that part the ark
[1:05:00] Speaker 2: was built for visitors in that way, with the gas
[1:05:03] Speaker 2: stations and the and the and the lodges and the
[1:05:09] Speaker 2: and there are a lot of roads, right, it's not
[1:05:11] Speaker 2: just a lot of roads, a lot of roads.
[1:05:12] Speaker 1: Now I understand when my plan comes in, I'm not
[1:05:14] Speaker 1: going to mess with any kind of flow through traffic.
[1:05:17] Speaker 1: I'm not going to mess with interstate traffic.
[1:05:19] Speaker 3: I'm gonna say take take twenty through Idaho.
[1:05:22] Speaker 1: Yeah, all that's gonna be fine. That's not going to
[1:05:24] Speaker 1: be interrupted. Just so people are clear on this. Do
[1:05:30] Speaker 1: you guys have like a you guys have like you
[1:05:32] Speaker 1: get funding, like you don't fund Yeah, you have a
[1:05:36] Speaker 1: network of donors obviously probably.
[1:05:38] Speaker 3: Globally, right, we mostly in the United States.
[1:05:41] Speaker 2: I think three percent of our dollars race have come
[1:05:44] Speaker 2: from outside of the states, really outside of the country.
[1:05:47] Speaker 2: And we've had donors from all fifty states. It's not
[1:05:50] Speaker 2: all fifty states every year, but and about fifteen percent
[1:05:55] Speaker 2: of our money last year came from Montana.
[1:05:57] Speaker 1: Okay, And when you do an acquisition, you don't fundraise
[1:06:02] Speaker 1: specifically around an acquisition. You fundraise on the mission.
[1:06:06] Speaker 2: Sometimes your fundraised for an acquisition. Yeah, sometimes we fundraise
[1:06:09] Speaker 2: for an acquisition. Yep, we've you know, we're fundraising to
[1:06:15] Speaker 2: support the organization's ongoing operations and stewarding those six hundred
[1:06:20] Speaker 2: thousand acres and supporting our team of fifty people and
[1:06:24] Speaker 2: all the roles that they play right in keeping a
[1:06:27] Speaker 2: nonprofit going. And then we're and then we're fundraising for acquisition,
[1:06:32] Speaker 2: and then we are also fundraising for an endowment because
[1:06:36] Speaker 2: we once we are through with this acquisition phase, we
[1:06:41] Speaker 2: envision and endowment large enough to take care of the
[1:06:44] Speaker 2: basic operations of the place. There'll be some revenue generating activities,
[1:06:48] Speaker 2: for sure, but we want that endowment to be able
[1:06:53] Speaker 2: to pay the taxes and support the Bison Hurd and
[1:06:56] Speaker 2: take care of the operations.
[1:06:59] Speaker 1: One thing I think people under about, and maybe you
[1:07:02] Speaker 1: can't even answer it. It's like I think people wonder, like,
[1:07:07] Speaker 1: what what is the ultimate Let's let's go forward a century, Okay,
[1:07:15] Speaker 1: what is American prairie in one hundred years? Is it
[1:07:19] Speaker 1: a park?
[1:07:21] Speaker 3: No capital p park capital.
[1:07:24] Speaker 1: Is there ever point, like, is it ever a point
[1:07:26] Speaker 1: where you'd go like, ha, we're done, And then and
[1:07:29] Speaker 1: then and then there's a when there's a favorable like administration,
[1:07:34] Speaker 1: you'd be like, ha, we're done, and you'd be like,
[1:07:36] Speaker 1: we now are handing this over. This is this is
[1:07:40] Speaker 1: the national park that we did that they didn't think
[1:07:43] Speaker 1: to create, but we made it.
[1:07:46] Speaker 2: No, we believe that a public private partnership collaboration is
[1:07:51] Speaker 2: the right solution for this landscape.
[1:07:52] Speaker 1: We will that would work in perpetuity.
[1:07:57] Speaker 3: I think it can work in perpetuity.
[1:07:59] Speaker 2: And I think if you book at the condition of
[1:08:03] Speaker 2: our parks in the backlog, I think that there's a
[1:08:05] Speaker 2: real opportunity to have multiple landowners at the table, meaning
[1:08:10] Speaker 2: a private landowner and these agencies managing toward toward common goals,
[1:08:17] Speaker 2: towards those common wildlife and public access goals.
[1:08:23] Speaker 1: What I wonder about, though, is like, because it's so
[1:08:27] Speaker 1: hard to anticipate right political changes, you don't.
[1:08:34] Speaker 3: Need to tell me that.
[1:08:36] Speaker 1: That like, and even if it was the plan, I
[1:08:39] Speaker 1: don't I think it'd be like hard if you guys
[1:08:41] Speaker 1: talk about it publicly, you follow me, yeah, yeah, because
[1:08:45] Speaker 1: you'd want you'd keep it.
[1:08:47] Speaker 2: Secret, right, But I I that is that is not
[1:08:52] Speaker 2: the plan. But do I have a crystal ball for
[1:08:54] Speaker 2: one hundred years? Like let's talk about bison. Yeah, what
[1:08:58] Speaker 2: are bison going to be?
[1:09:00] Speaker 1: Is gonna be? Here's my prediction. There's gonna be more
[1:09:05] Speaker 1: in one hundred years. This is my prediction. Karinn and
[1:09:09] Speaker 1: I have been arguing a lot and not arguing, texting
[1:09:11] Speaker 1: back and forth about she hates polymarkets, doesn't hate them.
[1:09:17] Speaker 1: She just addiction, sure, okay, noth she I don't want
[1:09:23] Speaker 1: to put words in her mouth. She views prediction markets
[1:09:26] Speaker 1: as a as a very volatile industry. As people are like,
[1:09:31] Speaker 1: there's this new thing, like, what are the regulations gonna be?
[1:09:34] Speaker 1: Like she it's taking shape.
[1:09:37] Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
[1:09:38] Speaker 1: I just feel like I'm kind of curious about them.
[1:09:40] Speaker 1: She's sort of curious about what their future holds. What
[1:09:44] Speaker 1: they need to figure out is how to do long
[1:09:46] Speaker 1: term wagers like I would make a one hundred year wager
[1:09:52] Speaker 1: that would benefit my children's children when I won. Mm hmm, right,
[1:09:58] Speaker 1: that's like the bet I would make. So this is
[1:10:00] Speaker 1: one of those for the when we build like the
[1:10:02] Speaker 1: way ass future prediction market thing, which is like a
[1:10:06] Speaker 1: state planning yes, years. Okay, it's like a state planning.
[1:10:11] Speaker 1: If I could do that, I would put a lot
[1:10:13] Speaker 1: of money on this. If there was a reliable way
[1:10:16] Speaker 1: to make one hundred year bets that would benefit my
[1:10:18] Speaker 1: children's children when I proved to be right, Okay, six, Yeah,
[1:10:21] Speaker 1: I would bet there are I don't want to say
[1:10:28] Speaker 1: a lot. There are quite a bit more. There are
[1:10:32] Speaker 1: quite a bit more wild free roaming buffalo on the
[1:10:38] Speaker 1: landscape that can cross political jurisdictions, that can freely cross
[1:10:45] Speaker 1: political jurisdictions, that are wildlife that are treated as wildlife wildlife. Yeah,
[1:10:51] Speaker 1: there will be more. There's more of that. There's more
[1:10:54] Speaker 1: of that.
[1:10:56] Speaker 3: It's our National mammal Steve.
[1:10:59] Speaker 1: That was tooless. It came with nothing. It came with nothing.
[1:11:03] Speaker 1: It was the biggest I was glad. I was glad,
[1:11:07] Speaker 1: but let's be honest. It meant nothing. It meant nothing.
[1:11:11] Speaker 1: It was purely symbolic.
[1:11:14] Speaker 3: Yes, but I hope it reminds.
[1:11:18] Speaker 2: It reminds our citizens of this natural heritage and of
[1:11:26] Speaker 2: what we had on the landscape.
[1:11:27] Speaker 1: You need to be suspicious. You know you've been alive
[1:11:30] Speaker 1: long enough to be suspicious. You need to be suspicious
[1:11:33] Speaker 1: of anything that's frictionless. There wasn't like like when they
[1:11:39] Speaker 1: were going like, hey, it's gonna be the national mammal.
[1:11:41] Speaker 1: There wasn't like an opposition. Yeah, okay, and if there's
[1:11:44] Speaker 1: no opposition, then you must realize that it means nothing. Yeah,
[1:11:52] Speaker 1: it was cool.
[1:11:52] Speaker 2: I was glad, but but you also I don't know
[1:11:55] Speaker 2: when this study. I don't think the study was repeated recently,
[1:11:58] Speaker 2: but there was a study looking at Montana's and that
[1:12:02] Speaker 2: Montana's wanting to see bison in the way that you
[1:12:07] Speaker 2: are describing in this state, and it was well over
[1:12:10] Speaker 2: sixty percent wanted that. So I do believe that that
[1:12:15] Speaker 2: that people want to see bison back on the landscape.
[1:12:18] Speaker 3: Even though leading.
[1:12:20] Speaker 2: A private effort, we're facing this resistance. It could feel
[1:12:26] Speaker 2: like if a private organization raising private dollars to raise
[1:12:32] Speaker 2: a private herd is facing this resistance. Certainly, certainly your
[1:12:37] Speaker 2: dream isn't isn't going to happen immediately, but but I
[1:12:42] Speaker 2: hope it would be before twenty one.
[1:12:44] Speaker 3: Twenty six.
[1:12:46] Speaker 1: Quite a bit more. What did I say, Not a lot,
[1:12:48] Speaker 1: but a bit more, Quite a bit more.
[1:12:50] Speaker 3: It was really real squishy, real squishy.
[1:12:54] Speaker 1: My view on stuff, my view on things is like
[1:13:00] Speaker 1: I have this sort of deal where like from a
[1:13:02] Speaker 1: professional standpoint, okay, like from a professional standpoint, as someone
[1:13:08] Speaker 1: who advocates about the outdoor lifestyle, hunting and fishing, wildlife conservation.
[1:13:15] Speaker 1: My sort of professional promise is that, like, I look
[1:13:23] Speaker 1: at situations taking place, the political landscape, the conservation world, whatever,
[1:13:31] Speaker 1: and I try to be like, what is in the
[1:13:32] Speaker 1: best interest what is in the best interest of hunters
[1:13:36] Speaker 1: and anglers an outdoorsman? Okay, and no one's perfect, but
[1:13:42] Speaker 1: I try to strip out and explaining things to people,
[1:13:47] Speaker 1: I try to strip out the other considerations that might
[1:13:52] Speaker 1: come in to being I'll give you a case in point,
[1:13:56] Speaker 1: talking about an impenetrable border wall between US and Mexico.
[1:14:04] Speaker 1: I would view my professional obligation would be to speak
[1:14:09] Speaker 1: to what it means for wildlife. Yes, my professional obligation
[1:14:14] Speaker 1: is not to talk about what it would mean for employment,
[1:14:20] Speaker 1: what it would mean for the fruit industry, farming industry,
[1:14:28] Speaker 1: hospitality industry, employment, Like right, So I gotta go like, okay,
[1:14:33] Speaker 1: never mind, I got to forget all my opinions about that,
[1:14:35] Speaker 1: and I need to talk about what it means for
[1:14:38] Speaker 1: wildlife and impenetrable walls ain't great for wildlife. So I
[1:14:43] Speaker 1: have to then say, to be honest with myself and
[1:14:46] Speaker 1: to be true to my mission, I have to say,
[1:14:47] Speaker 1: like an impenetrable wall between us in Mexico is going
[1:14:51] Speaker 1: to impair and impede wildlife movements and be kind of
[1:14:56] Speaker 1: that's bad for hunters, right. But here's another thing. It's
[1:15:01] Speaker 1: also bad for hunters that if we have tons of
[1:15:03] Speaker 1: illegal immigration and you have to have an exaggerated federal
[1:15:11] Speaker 1: state presence on the landscape dealing with all that, that's
[1:15:16] Speaker 1: an impact on wildlife, right, So that has to be considered.
[1:15:20] Speaker 1: So you know what I'm saying, It gets complicated. When
[1:15:22] Speaker 1: I look at American prairie, you look like you're uncomfortab.
[1:15:28] Speaker 3: No, no, no, I'm settling in for this.
[1:15:29] Speaker 1: When I look to American prairie, I just want what
[1:15:32] Speaker 1: I want, what I wish there would be, and I
[1:15:35] Speaker 1: know you can't do it. I wish there would be
[1:15:36] Speaker 1: that like written in the charter is like a promise
[1:15:41] Speaker 1: to hunters and anglers that it would be memorialized, that
[1:15:47] Speaker 1: there would be a deal codified, right, and that then
[1:15:54] Speaker 1: people would look and be like, yeah, I know, it's
[1:15:57] Speaker 1: kind of weird what they're doing. Or whatever. But like
[1:15:59] Speaker 1: they stand and buy hunters and anglers. Yeah, but you
[1:16:04] Speaker 1: can't because it's too complicated.
[1:16:09] Speaker 3: Well you're not.
[1:16:12] Speaker 2: So where I thought you were going to go is
[1:16:14] Speaker 2: some sort of you know, public access easement. And the
[1:16:20] Speaker 2: reason that the reason that those are tricky for us
[1:16:22] Speaker 2: is because we don't know what land will ultimately own,
[1:16:26] Speaker 2: and when you put an easement on it.
[1:16:28] Speaker 3: You reduce its value.
[1:16:30] Speaker 2: And we're trying to borrow against our our existing properties
[1:16:35] Speaker 2: and we don't we we could sell something that's on
[1:16:38] Speaker 2: the you know, if we if we concentration of land
[1:16:41] Speaker 2: ends up over here, we could you could sell something.
[1:16:43] Speaker 2: So I'm not going we don't want to hamstring a
[1:16:45] Speaker 2: future management team by by doing a an easement. At
[1:16:50] Speaker 2: this point, we do have conservation easements on our property.
[1:16:53] Speaker 2: We've inherited conservation easements. We're not anti easement. We can
[1:16:55] Speaker 2: work with them. But that that that's sort of the
[1:17:00] Speaker 2: but if and what we say is look at our
[1:17:03] Speaker 2: track record, right like, look at what we've done for
[1:17:05] Speaker 2: the last twenty years of owning land, and it's increased access,
[1:17:09] Speaker 2: it's increased hunting opportunity.
[1:17:12] Speaker 3: That will continue.
[1:17:13] Speaker 2: But but but you're not the first to suggest some
[1:17:17] Speaker 2: sort of contract with Montana or or Charter and that
[1:17:23] Speaker 2: that's I think that goes beyond a communications tool, right,
[1:17:26] Speaker 2: It's it's it is. It reflects a conversation and a commitment.
[1:17:31] Speaker 2: And so it's not it's not a terrible idea.
[1:17:33] Speaker 1: No, it's not terrible idea. It's a great idea. Because
[1:17:37] Speaker 1: that's like when I was saying down the road, if
[1:17:40] Speaker 1: you viewed it like if if if we started out
[1:17:48] Speaker 1: our conversation we were talking about parks, right, they didn't
[1:17:52] Speaker 1: do one of those, right. But I think that if
[1:17:56] Speaker 1: there was imagined a if there was a managined a
[1:18:01] Speaker 1: large area, that would be the aim was to make
[1:18:06] Speaker 1: it a increase wildlife, better habitat with like with a
[1:18:17] Speaker 1: open to regulated hunting activities in accordance with state objectives
[1:18:27] Speaker 1: and perpetuity. I think that that that a lot that
[1:18:32] Speaker 1: some of the tension would trickle away.
[1:18:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, I hear you.
[1:18:38] Speaker 2: I also that that's kind of what's happening right now
[1:18:40] Speaker 2: on six hundred thousand acres, right. And And I don't
[1:18:45] Speaker 2: know if the tension Steve comes as much from that
[1:18:50] Speaker 2: from we are seeing more support from hunters and anglers
[1:18:54] Speaker 2: and less doubt and less skepticism and more appreciation. And
[1:18:59] Speaker 2: I think think you know, there are a lot of
[1:19:02] Speaker 2: conservation efforts in this state. Some of them are species focused,
[1:19:05] Speaker 2: some of them are regionals but regionally focused. Some of
[1:19:07] Speaker 2: them are pay our private lands focused, working private landowners.
[1:19:11] Speaker 3: I don't think there's anyone.
[1:19:13] Speaker 2: There isn't anyone who is creating the access that we're
[1:19:16] Speaker 2: creating in every single year, right the access to our
[1:19:21] Speaker 2: deeded land, the access through our deeded land to public lands.
[1:19:25] Speaker 2: I mean, the response to our purchase of the Anchor
[1:19:29] Speaker 2: Ranch was astonishing.
[1:19:31] Speaker 1: Well, that was an important thing.
[1:19:34] Speaker 2: It was, And for those who don't know, we immediately
[1:19:39] Speaker 2: opened a three point nine mile private road, the gate
[1:19:43] Speaker 2: to a three point nine mile private road that access
[1:19:45] Speaker 2: fifty thousand.
[1:19:46] Speaker 3: Acres the Bulwacker Road.
[1:19:48] Speaker 2: That that opened fifty thousand acres of public land that
[1:19:52] Speaker 2: was that wasn't accessible.
[1:19:54] Speaker 3: I mean, it was accessible for the very hardy.
[1:19:57] Speaker 2: But now it is accessible through this road and gate
[1:20:00] Speaker 2: was there was no trespassing. Signs were immediately taken down
[1:20:03] Speaker 2: and that gate was immediately thrown open.
[1:20:07] Speaker 1: War it's right there. They crossed in there, it's right there.
[1:20:09] Speaker 3: I was standing there this fall with my family.
[1:20:11] Speaker 1: Yeah, forward there they crossed. There's a bit of creek. Yeah,
[1:20:16] Speaker 1: there's a bit of a shootout down there, but it
[1:20:17] Speaker 1: wasn't that big of a deal. But they crossed there.
[1:20:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it is tremendous, tremendous country. It is that
[1:20:24] Speaker 2: that that whole Cow Creek drainage and.
[1:20:26] Speaker 3: The footholes of the bear's paw there.
[1:20:29] Speaker 2: So ageain not a bad idea, but I but our
[1:20:35] Speaker 2: track record is that was.
[1:20:37] Speaker 1: Widely that was in my community. That was that was celebrated.
[1:20:43] Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and you know we we It just happened
[1:20:46] Speaker 2: that we made that announcement right before the Choke Cherry
[1:20:48] Speaker 2: Festival in Lewistown and we always have a booth at
[1:20:52] Speaker 2: the Joke Cherry Festival. Our building on Main Street is open,
[1:20:54] Speaker 2: our Discovery centers open during it, and hundreds of people.
[1:21:00] Speaker 3: Came by to say thank you. We noticed that, thank you.
[1:21:04] Speaker 2: So so that's what we will, that's what we're doing,
[1:21:07] Speaker 2: and that's what we will continue to do.
[1:21:11] Speaker 1: What uh, how long how long will you stick with this?
[1:21:13] Speaker 1: You think?
[1:21:16] Speaker 3: I don't know, I'm still having so much fun, like
[1:21:19] Speaker 3: you enjoy it? Oh, it's so Yeah.
[1:21:22] Speaker 2: First of all, it's an amazing team, right, We've got
[1:21:24] Speaker 2: We've got an incredibly talented team. I was up with
[1:21:27] Speaker 2: our our bison team the week before last and I
[1:21:31] Speaker 2: either we have two new team members on that in
[1:21:34] Speaker 2: that group, both females, which is cool. And I hadn't
[1:21:38] Speaker 2: seen our new handling facility and the new design of
[1:21:41] Speaker 2: the handling facility.
[1:21:42] Speaker 3: And they're world class. They are world class.
[1:21:45] Speaker 2: And the way that they're managing those animals in the
[1:21:50] Speaker 2: the way that they're adapting the way that our management
[1:21:53] Speaker 2: to to take good care of the animals and make
[1:21:55] Speaker 2: sure people are safe too. So it's a it's an
[1:21:58] Speaker 2: incredible team. We've got an incredible board. We have supporters
[1:22:02] Speaker 2: around the country who believe in this mission, believe in
[1:22:06] Speaker 2: this idea, care about this landscape, care about the wildlife
[1:22:11] Speaker 2: and the human communities. And I get to interact with
[1:22:13] Speaker 2: all of them. So it's challenging and it's a it's
[1:22:17] Speaker 2: a lot of nights away from home and whether they're
[1:22:19] Speaker 2: up in whether I'm I'm spending them up in more
[1:22:21] Speaker 2: Central Montana or around the country. But as long as
[1:22:27] Speaker 2: as long as the board wants me, I will, I
[1:22:29] Speaker 2: will be here.
[1:22:30] Speaker 1: How big is you, guys? Bored?
[1:22:32] Speaker 3: It's twenty two. Okay, yep, twenty two from all over
[1:22:36] Speaker 3: the country, handful of Montanas.
[1:22:39] Speaker 1: You're gonna bring my suggestions to the board.
[1:22:41] Speaker 3: Yes, thank you. They'll hear you.
[1:22:43] Speaker 1: They'll hear them because they'll be vetting how well you do? Yeah, yeah,
[1:22:48] Speaker 1: what what did I not ask you about that? When
[1:22:50] Speaker 1: you get vetted? What did I not ask about that?
[1:22:52] Speaker 1: You wish I would have asked you about You can just
[1:22:54] Speaker 1: answer it.
[1:22:56] Speaker 3: We've covered a lot. We have covered a lot.
[1:23:00] Speaker 2: I guess I would just say, come visit us, and
[1:23:03] Speaker 2: you know, we're certainly we have a lot of people
[1:23:06] Speaker 2: hunting out there. That is our number one recreational activity,
[1:23:08] Speaker 2: but wildlife watching is a close second. Our vice president
[1:23:14] Speaker 2: of Recreation and Access follows all the trends in Montana,
[1:23:17] Speaker 2: and you know, scenic drives and camping and wildlife watching
[1:23:20] Speaker 2: and birding and floating the rivers are all are all
[1:23:27] Speaker 2: incredible activities to do out there.
[1:23:28] Speaker 1: So, you know, I thought it was interesting about you guys.
[1:23:30] Speaker 1: You mentioned wildlife viewing. Well, I thought was interesting about
[1:23:33] Speaker 1: you guys. Is like now and then, just for people listening,
[1:23:36] Speaker 1: now and then grizzlies will kind of come out of
[1:23:39] Speaker 1: the grizzlies will kind of come out of the rockies
[1:23:43] Speaker 1: up in the north part of the state and they'll
[1:23:48] Speaker 1: they'll strike out east, you know, out onto the great plains,
[1:23:51] Speaker 1: and like what people dose track of, is it historically
[1:23:55] Speaker 1: that was a great planes animal?
[1:23:57] Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
[1:23:58] Speaker 1: Coster and his chief scout, Bloody Knife. I mean they
[1:24:02] Speaker 1: killed a grizzly out in South Dakota, right, I mean
[1:24:05] Speaker 1: grizzlies were you know, you think of all these big
[1:24:08] Speaker 1: grizzly maulings like Hugh Glass when he got mauled and
[1:24:11] Speaker 1: the story that was told in the Revenant, he got
[1:24:14] Speaker 1: malled out on the plains like they were a plain's animal.
[1:24:19] Speaker 1: When Lewis and Clark ran into grizzly bears.
[1:24:21] Speaker 3: It was out on the plains every day.
[1:24:24] Speaker 1: It'd be like you'd be going down these big valleys.
[1:24:27] Speaker 1: You mentioned choke cherries and stuff like you travel in
[1:24:31] Speaker 1: these big valleys and you'd read mountain man accounts they'll
[1:24:34] Speaker 1: run into like nine grizzlies in a day out on
[1:24:37] Speaker 1: the big valleys out on the plains. People would be like, oh,
[1:24:42] Speaker 1: they got pushed into the mountains. They didn't get pushed
[1:24:44] Speaker 1: into the mountains, just the ones that were on the
[1:24:45] Speaker 1: plains are gone, and there's someone they didn't like migrate
[1:24:49] Speaker 1: to the mountains. That's like a misconception to be that
[1:24:51] Speaker 1: they were there, they remained there. Where they're not is
[1:24:54] Speaker 1: on the plains. But now and then one will strike
[1:24:56] Speaker 1: out and he'll head east. And when that happens, oftentimes
[1:25:01] Speaker 1: people are like, good, lord's the end of the world.
[1:25:03] Speaker 1: But you guys had a grizzly number of years ago
[1:25:05] Speaker 1: turn up. But I remember you were like a rare
[1:25:08] Speaker 1: voice to be like cool, a grizzly Well, yeah, it
[1:25:10] Speaker 1: amids a lot of like handwringing about what it's like.
[1:25:13] Speaker 1: The end of civilization as we know is well.
[1:25:16] Speaker 2: You know, I think other aren't. Some of our neighbors
[1:25:19] Speaker 2: were happy to do. But yeah, yeah, and it hasn't
[1:25:22] Speaker 2: just been that one. We've We've spotted a number in
[1:25:24] Speaker 2: that area for sure now, like even a mom and cubs.
[1:25:28] Speaker 2: So yeah, I know they're coming. They're absolutely coming, and
[1:25:31] Speaker 2: they're coming exactly how we thought they would come. And
[1:25:34] Speaker 2: that's why, you know, one of the things we didn't
[1:25:36] Speaker 2: touch on is the way that American prairie works with
[1:25:39] Speaker 2: neighboring landowners. In one of those ways, I talked about
[1:25:43] Speaker 2: the twenty five families that run eight to ten thousand
[1:25:46] Speaker 2: head of cattle on our properties. But we also work
[1:25:48] Speaker 2: with private landowners through a program called wild Sky where
[1:25:51] Speaker 2: we make payments basically rent for wildlife through a cameras
[1:25:56] Speaker 2: for a conservation program. And so if someone sees a
[1:26:00] Speaker 2: mountain lion on a camera trap, they get a check
[1:26:02] Speaker 2: for that mountain lion and a camera trap. And what
[1:26:04] Speaker 2: we're recognizing is that this this wildlife is there and
[1:26:08] Speaker 2: in the middle of these working lands, and that these
[1:26:11] Speaker 2: landowners are providing that habitat and we cost share on
[1:26:16] Speaker 2: habitat restoration projects too. Including the reason I brought this
[1:26:19] Speaker 2: up is because we have a range riding program that
[1:26:22] Speaker 2: is right there in the in the breaks where where
[1:26:25] Speaker 2: those grizzly bears were and there haven't been any issues
[1:26:29] Speaker 2: with those those grizzly bears in the in the Missouri
[1:26:31] Speaker 2: River breaks.
[1:26:32] Speaker 3: That was definitely.
[1:26:35] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:26:35] Speaker 2: There, mean, we we where our visitors were seeing, you know,
[1:26:39] Speaker 2: we're seeing evidence of grizzly bears and that there have
[1:26:42] Speaker 2: been bears in some of the island mountain ranges around
[1:26:45] Speaker 2: there too. But but yeah, we it was a day
[1:26:48] Speaker 2: we celebrated in terms of advocating for bear proof dumpsters
[1:26:54] Speaker 2: and educating our visitors about carrying bear spray and immediately
[1:26:57] Speaker 2: putting bear boxes at all of our public facility is
[1:27:00] Speaker 2: out there, because you know, we don't we don't want
[1:27:03] Speaker 2: that any conflict of course, and and and nor do
[1:27:06] Speaker 2: any of our neighbors. So but yeah, they're they're moving east.
[1:27:10] Speaker 1: And here's why I didn't ask about you guys are
[1:27:15] Speaker 1: like you guys are not in like you don't participate
[1:27:18] Speaker 1: in any kind of predator management programs, Like you don't.
[1:27:22] Speaker 1: You don't do any predator management on your lands. You're
[1:27:25] Speaker 1: sort of like just not comfortable with it. Like what's
[1:27:28] Speaker 1: the sort of what's the viewpoint on it? You don't
[1:27:31] Speaker 1: view you don't, I mean because I guess because you're
[1:27:33] Speaker 1: not you're not in the livestock business necessarily, it's not
[1:27:36] Speaker 1: a huge issue for you.
[1:27:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, and we and we want to see everything restored
[1:27:40] Speaker 2: to the landscape.
[1:27:41] Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Do you view that that if you look
[1:27:46] Speaker 1: at stuff like uh, like declining mule deer right or
[1:27:52] Speaker 1: like protecting big horn sheet, do you ever do you
[1:27:56] Speaker 1: ever weigh that out to be like what is that
[1:27:59] Speaker 1: if me, fulder, if you're taking steps like you don't
[1:28:02] Speaker 1: want human harvest of mulder, right, so.
[1:28:05] Speaker 3: Both those species. Isn't it disease with.
[1:28:08] Speaker 1: Milder, No, it's habitat, predation and habitat. So if you
[1:28:13] Speaker 1: were looking like, let's say you were looking at a
[1:28:17] Speaker 1: species of concern, Okay, it would be mule deer harsh winners.
[1:28:24] Speaker 1: That's an issue. Predation is an issue. Habitat loss is
[1:28:27] Speaker 1: an issue. What if you looked at a thing like
[1:28:30] Speaker 1: Muldier and you thought, like, as a species of particular concern,
[1:28:34] Speaker 1: we want to like help build and recover milder during
[1:28:37] Speaker 1: low points, you would never make the calculation that even
[1:28:40] Speaker 1: if you knew empirically that predation from coyotes on mule
[1:28:45] Speaker 1: deer fawns was having a population level negative impact, you
[1:28:51] Speaker 1: would not participate in predator man. You would not participate
[1:28:55] Speaker 1: in coyote management to bring up Muldier numbers.
[1:29:00] Speaker 2: Those are just not conversations that we're that we're having. Yeah,
[1:29:04] Speaker 2: those are just not Yeah, those are just not the
[1:29:07] Speaker 2: reality out there on that.
[1:29:09] Speaker 1: You're not looking at it at that kind of like
[1:29:11] Speaker 1: detailed level. Yeah, what else do you want to talk
[1:29:16] Speaker 1: about or things that you wish I had asked you about.
[1:29:22] Speaker 3: You know, I think we've we've covered a good, good
[1:29:25] Speaker 3: range of topics.
[1:29:27] Speaker 1: How best do people go find out more about your organization's.
[1:29:30] Speaker 2: Great information on our website and where this year will
[1:29:33] Speaker 2: be improving the visit pages so it's clearer. How to
[1:29:39] Speaker 2: rent a facility, how to get a hunting reservation, how
[1:29:43] Speaker 2: to go out and experience the landscape.
[1:29:46] Speaker 1: One of our colleagues, he's currently feeding on one right now,
[1:29:48] Speaker 1: and I've been eating some of it too. Is he
[1:29:50] Speaker 1: his wife had a permit to hunt? Yes, the buffalo
[1:29:53] Speaker 1: on your guy's place. Another one of my colleagues. Every
[1:29:56] Speaker 1: year he goes with a veteran. Yep, he partic in
[1:30:00] Speaker 1: a veteran hunt.
[1:30:01] Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't.
[1:30:02] Speaker 2: I mentioned that three hundred and seventy bison have been harvested,
[1:30:05] Speaker 2: but I didn't. I didn't go into the details of
[1:30:07] Speaker 2: how popular that program is. And so every year we
[1:30:10] Speaker 2: do have, yeah, a public application, twenty to thirty opportunities
[1:30:15] Speaker 2: every year, and thousands and thousands of people apply. Those
[1:30:19] Speaker 2: opportunities are weighted to Montana's and they're weighted to the
[1:30:24] Speaker 2: seven counties that we work in. So harder to get
[1:30:27] Speaker 2: one of those if you're your if you're not in
[1:30:30] Speaker 2: the state, but those are immensely popular.
[1:30:32] Speaker 1: The other thing we do, but they don't live here
[1:30:35] Speaker 1: in town. But his wife got one.
[1:30:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, well she she was really lucky. Then well, Gallatin
[1:30:40] Speaker 2: County wouldn't be waited, so she was just one of them.
[1:30:43] Speaker 1: No, no, she just got lucky.
[1:30:45] Speaker 3: Yeah, she just got lucky.
[1:30:46] Speaker 2: And then the other thing we do is we we
[1:30:48] Speaker 2: donate harvest to other nonprofits to auxure them off. So
[1:30:53] Speaker 2: as an example, the Glasgow Reds baseball team up in Glasgow.
[1:30:58] Speaker 3: Along with a rifle.
[1:31:00] Speaker 2: That was donated by a local rancher, that opportunity to
[1:31:03] Speaker 2: harvest a bison America Brad went for over thirty thousand dollars.
[1:31:06] Speaker 2: Oh really yeah, raising money for that for that organization.
[1:31:10] Speaker 1: Our body that works here and it goes with the
[1:31:12] Speaker 1: wounded Veterans. I'm not sure what organization he goes.
[1:31:15] Speaker 2: With Wounded Warriors. I think I believe, but could be. Yeah, yeah,
[1:31:20] Speaker 2: so yeah, definitely, definitely.
[1:31:23] Speaker 1: It's an annual late winter thing that they go.
[1:31:25] Speaker 2: Yep, yep, there are a couple, there are some organizations
[1:31:27] Speaker 2: that we've partnered with your year after year like that.
[1:31:30] Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, if anyone has an organization that
[1:31:33] Speaker 2: they want America.
[1:31:34] Speaker 3: Bread to support.
[1:31:36] Speaker 2: Give us a give us a call and also put
[1:31:38] Speaker 2: in for those put in for that drawing every year.
[1:31:41] Speaker 1: And so people should go check out your website.
[1:31:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, website's the best place. What is your what is
[1:31:46] Speaker 2: the website America Prairie dot org.
[1:31:51] Speaker 1: It's easy to find Two Eyes and Prairie. Alison Fox,
[1:31:56] Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show man.
[1:31:57] Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. Really appreciate you having us by.
[1:32:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you well I should. I don't want to
[1:32:02] Speaker 1: say you can come on any time, but you can
[1:32:03] Speaker 1: come on almost every time.
[1:32:05] Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.
[1:32:05] Speaker 2: That's very generous of you, especially the new stuff to
[1:32:08] Speaker 2: talk about.
[1:32:09] Speaker 3: We didn't talk about your bison tattoo though.
[1:32:12] Speaker 1: No, it's fading out, my fake one.
[1:32:15] Speaker 3: I really thought that was why that you got that
[1:32:17] Speaker 3: in my honor.
[1:32:17] Speaker 1: Well, the deal I've talked with this all the time.
[1:32:19] Speaker 1: But the deal is my wife U and I we
[1:32:23] Speaker 1: were going to provide like a service by being the
[1:32:25] Speaker 1: last untattooed American couple.
[1:32:29] Speaker 3: Oh, my husband and I are part of that part of.
[1:32:33] Speaker 1: The Yeah, yeah, the select the select few American couples.
[1:32:38] Speaker 2: And then now you're telling me my kids are also
[1:32:40] Speaker 2: not going to get tattoos.
[1:32:42] Speaker 1: I'll get into that greater detail. Well, but no, I
[1:32:46] Speaker 1: appreciate you being I mean, you know, coming on and
[1:32:50] Speaker 1: being such a good sport about asking a bunch of questions.
[1:32:52] Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, happy to I appreciate. I appreciate the
[1:32:54] Speaker 2: opportunity to tell the story. I guess the other thing
[1:32:56] Speaker 2: I would say is, you know, we in uh one,
[1:33:00] Speaker 2: we opened our Discovery Center in Lewistown and that's really
[1:33:04] Speaker 2: the headquarters of the organization. We've got about fifteen staff
[1:33:07] Speaker 2: based there. That facility is open for public events. There's
[1:33:11] Speaker 2: an exhibit hall, there's a children's area, we have a
[1:33:13] Speaker 2: new blackfooted ferret.
[1:33:15] Speaker 3: We have a.
[1:33:17] Speaker 2: So go in and visit it, go to an event
[1:33:21] Speaker 2: there and meet our team and ask any question you
[1:33:24] Speaker 2: have about American Prairie. That is, we are committed to
[1:33:27] Speaker 2: being open and transparent and available, and it's been amazing
[1:33:31] Speaker 2: to see that having that physical place where people can go.
[1:33:35] Speaker 3: Call it.
[1:33:36] Speaker 2: We called it a discovery center because it's not quite
[1:33:37] Speaker 2: a visitor center, it's not quite a community center. It's both,
[1:33:40] Speaker 2: and that's why we chose the word discovery. But it's
[1:33:43] Speaker 2: open and go talk to members.
[1:33:45] Speaker 3: Of our team.
[1:33:46] Speaker 1: Do you guys have any blackfooted ferrets on the ground.
[1:33:48] Speaker 3: We don't.
[1:33:49] Speaker 2: We don't, so we don't have the extent of the
[1:33:54] Speaker 2: prairie dog towns are not large enough yet to support
[1:33:58] Speaker 2: blackfooted ferrets.
[1:33:59] Speaker 3: There are blackfoot the ferre it's on Fort bell Nap.
[1:34:01] Speaker 3: That's the closest population now and they have been there for.
[1:34:05] Speaker 1: I would have thought that I would. I would just
[1:34:07] Speaker 1: feel that you have enough prairie dog colonies for blackfoot affairs.
[1:34:09] Speaker 1: So they need huge area.
[1:34:11] Speaker 2: They need huge airs, thousands of acres, and we're working
[1:34:14] Speaker 2: toward that. We're absolutely working toward that. But but not
[1:34:18] Speaker 2: we don't have them any now.
[1:34:20] Speaker 1: So some little football field sized town isn't going to
[1:34:23] Speaker 1: do it.
[1:34:23] Speaker 3: Nope, Nope.
[1:34:25] Speaker 2: You need towns that are big enough so that some
[1:34:27] Speaker 2: plague out they can they can go to other towns
[1:34:31] Speaker 2: connected network.
[1:34:32] Speaker 1: Yeah. If he's like down in the valley floor hanging
[1:34:35] Speaker 1: out and like I said, like maybe something a couple
[1:34:37] Speaker 1: of football fields, but then all of a sudden you
[1:34:39] Speaker 1: realize there's not one left because they got because they
[1:34:41] Speaker 1: all died. Yeah, that guy's screw you.
[1:34:44] Speaker 2: Other other populations, but we do. We have an ambassador
[1:34:48] Speaker 2: ferret at the Discovery Center.
[1:34:50] Speaker 1: You can point him and be like someday, yeah right, No.
[1:34:52] Speaker 2: I mean it's uh the National Blackfoot of the Ferret
[1:34:55] Speaker 2: Center and Fort Collins, uh, which has a captive breeding
[1:34:59] Speaker 2: progra and some ferrets prove themselves able to survive and
[1:35:04] Speaker 2: be reintroduced to some of the reintroduction sites around the
[1:35:07] Speaker 2: around the Great Planes, and some do not. And so
[1:35:10] Speaker 2: our little guy bandit eats two rats a day instead.
[1:35:14] Speaker 1: Is that like, is there a permitting problem? Like, let's
[1:35:16] Speaker 1: say you just wanted to try it out and cut
[1:35:19] Speaker 1: one loose cut, not cut one cut, ten them loose? Right?
[1:35:23] Speaker 3: Oh, there are endangered species always.
[1:35:25] Speaker 1: Saying like if you're like, now we're going to do
[1:35:27] Speaker 1: three males, seven females, We're just gonna like is that
[1:35:30] Speaker 1: can you not do it? Because it is that a
[1:35:32] Speaker 1: huge permitting permission issue? Yeah? Because they're an EESA species.
[1:35:37] Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and yes, they're any SA species.
[1:35:39] Speaker 2: And of course every America Barry doesn't have the authority
[1:35:42] Speaker 2: to reintroduce any animals, right except for by But yes
[1:35:46] Speaker 2: you would, yeah, it would be.
[1:35:47] Speaker 1: Is it impossible or is it just hard?
[1:35:50] Speaker 3: No?
[1:35:50] Speaker 2: I don't think it's impossible. There are there are reintroduction sites.
[1:35:54] Speaker 2: There are sites in month. There have been sites in Montana,
[1:35:57] Speaker 2: there are sites in South Dakota, and so.
[1:36:02] Speaker 1: I guess there wouldn't be a reason why they Yeah, no,
[1:36:04] Speaker 1: there are.
[1:36:04] Speaker 3: Yeah, there are private land sites there.
[1:36:06] Speaker 2: I believe that there are sites that are you know,
[1:36:08] Speaker 2: a mix of public and private lands.
[1:36:12] Speaker 1: So I would wonder about the unfaire it's if if
[1:36:15] Speaker 1: you have if the captive breeding program. This is a
[1:36:18] Speaker 1: whole other conversation with the different guests, but this is
[1:36:21] Speaker 1: what I would ask them if there was a black
[1:36:23] Speaker 1: if you were a blackfooted fair expert, I would say,
[1:36:27] Speaker 1: is the captive breeding program so successful that you can
[1:36:31] Speaker 1: roll the dice now and then? Or is a blackfooted
[1:36:34] Speaker 1: as an individual blackfooted ferret of such rarity and value
[1:36:40] Speaker 1: that you can't be risky mm hmmm, do you follow me?
[1:36:44] Speaker 3: I do follow you. I do follow you. And I
[1:36:45] Speaker 3: don't know.
[1:36:47] Speaker 2: It's hundreds of animals in the captive breeding program at
[1:36:52] Speaker 2: least and and and so I suspect that they can.
[1:36:59] Speaker 1: They can take a chance.
[1:37:00] Speaker 3: They can take a chance.
[1:37:01] Speaker 1: But because you know, you don't take a chance with
[1:37:05] Speaker 1: a rhino, you do not take it right. You don't
[1:37:09] Speaker 1: go out m lose. See what happens but I wonder
[1:37:12] Speaker 1: if you can, like if there's ever enough ferrets where
[1:37:14] Speaker 1: you get to start trying some stuff you know well.
[1:37:18] Speaker 2: And there there's a concept of kind of like a
[1:37:20] Speaker 2: nursery site where they might be smaller, but you're training
[1:37:24] Speaker 2: those ferrets to be fair at like in a.
[1:37:28] Speaker 3: In a while in a wild landscape. Again, so.
[1:37:32] Speaker 1: We learned. The other day we had a rough grouse
[1:37:34] Speaker 1: expert on and rough grouse are not doing well in
[1:37:38] Speaker 1: a lot of the areas in the southern end of
[1:37:39] Speaker 1: their range, and he was pointing out that unlike the
[1:37:45] Speaker 1: wild turkey, rough grouse don't do well with with spot reintroductions.
[1:37:54] Speaker 1: They have to bleed out.
[1:37:58] Speaker 3: Oh interesting, you you.
[1:38:00] Speaker 1: Can't jump ahead like they just don't.
[1:38:03] Speaker 3: They What kind of distances are we talking, I don't know, but.
[1:38:05] Speaker 1: He said that, like they have very poor success rates
[1:38:08] Speaker 1: leap frogging like they need to. They need to bleed
[1:38:12] Speaker 1: from the habit Yeah, they need to be like stable
[1:38:17] Speaker 1: populations and good habitat and they need to spread like that.
[1:38:21] Speaker 1: Putting them in a box and moving them forward and
[1:38:25] Speaker 1: dropping them doesn't work for them. I don't know if
[1:38:28] Speaker 1: it's just that they can't learn the area quickly enough
[1:38:31] Speaker 1: they make too many mistakes, they're not familiar. They got
[1:38:33] Speaker 1: to ease into it, they're too vulnerable or whatever. But
[1:38:36] Speaker 1: it doesn't work like that.
[1:38:38] Speaker 2: So the conservation efforts are focused on expanding habitat off core, as.
[1:38:43] Speaker 1: You're saying, it has to be off core habitat and
[1:38:46] Speaker 1: move it that way, like it doesn't work to jump
[1:38:48] Speaker 1: to leap frog them. Yeah, but if that was the
[1:38:51] Speaker 1: plan on blackfooted ferrets, it's gonna be a long road
[1:38:54] Speaker 1: to recovery. Yeah, if you weren't able to establish.
[1:38:58] Speaker 3: Because there aren't any there's no place.
[1:39:01] Speaker 1: Very few places to start from.
[1:39:02] Speaker 3: Right right, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[1:39:06] Speaker 1: Well call me when you get a black foot ferret
[1:39:08] Speaker 1: on the ground. I'll be curious about that.
[1:39:11] Speaker 3: I'm rooting for the fierce little animals.
[1:39:13] Speaker 1: They're cool, yeah, cool.
[1:39:14] Speaker 2: I mean obviously I did get it the opportunity once
[1:39:18] Speaker 2: to spotlight when there was a there was a sight
[1:39:20] Speaker 2: in the Turley Russell and I got to drive around
[1:39:23] Speaker 2: all night and it.
[1:39:24] Speaker 1: Was I've seen about I'd like to see like one
[1:39:27] Speaker 1: doing his deal, you know.
[1:39:28] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know the green eye shine in the
[1:39:30] Speaker 2: middle of the night, how they shine. And then you
[1:39:32] Speaker 2: there's a reader that you put over the hole and
[1:39:34] Speaker 2: you stuff some hay down in there.
[1:39:36] Speaker 3: And so you can tell when it's come out.
[1:39:38] Speaker 2: And then you get the reader and they know they're
[1:39:40] Speaker 2: all chips, so they know. Oh yeah, they're doing basically
[1:39:43] Speaker 2: a fare. They were doing like a ferret census every
[1:39:45] Speaker 2: fall to see and then capturing the new kits and
[1:39:50] Speaker 2: and tagging them.
[1:39:51] Speaker 1: So their eyes show green.
[1:39:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, So you're driving on out of the
[1:39:55] Speaker 2: spotlight on the top of the car and looking for
[1:39:58] Speaker 2: them on the prairie dog town all night long.
[1:40:00] Speaker 3: Are they very cool experience?
[1:40:04] Speaker 1: No?
[1:40:04] Speaker 2: I mean they're they're chill, they're yeah, no there, yeah,
[1:40:06] Speaker 2: they're and and they're small, right, they're a couple, they're
[1:40:10] Speaker 2: a couple of pounds, and there their prize a couple
[1:40:12] Speaker 2: of pounds.
[1:40:13] Speaker 1: So that's cool, amazing.
[1:40:15] Speaker 3: To think about.
[1:40:15] Speaker 2: They eat a prairie the prairie dog going least a
[1:40:18] Speaker 2: couple of days. They eat one every three days.
[1:40:21] Speaker 1: No, it seems like there's plenty of them out there.
[1:40:23] Speaker 1: But I see what you're saying about eating those huge towns.
[1:40:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll let alone all the other species that the
[1:40:29] Speaker 2: rattlesnakes and the badgers and the burrowing owls and all
[1:40:32] Speaker 2: the other species that depend on on those prairie dog towns,
[1:40:35] Speaker 2: and all the on gillids that are eating that fresh growth,
[1:40:38] Speaker 2: and you know they're important part of the ecosystem, even
[1:40:41] Speaker 2: though not everyone loves them.
[1:40:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, all right man, thanks again, Yeah, thank you. I
[1:40:47] Speaker 1: appreciate you coming on absolutely thanks for having us

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