# #426 — How Bad Is It?

An episode of [Making Sense with Sam Harris](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/733163012), 23 Jul 2025, 28 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/wakingup/Making_Sense_425_David_Frum_paywall.mp3?dest-id=480596

Sam Harris speaks with David Frum about the current state of American politics. They discuss the extent of Trump's corruption, his immigration crackdowns, what's going well under Trump 2.0, Trump's support for Ukraine and Israel, U.S. foreign policy, nuclear proliferation, Israel's security and internal political conflicts, perceptions of the war in Gaza, the Trump administration's professed support for Jews, the fallout of DOGE, Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, and other topics. If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.

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