# #436 — A Crisis of Trust

An episode of [Making Sense with Sam Harris](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/733163012), 3 Oct 2025, 25 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/wakingup/Making_Sense_436_Michael_Osterholm_paywall.mp3?dest-id=480596

Sam Harris speaks with Michael Osterholm about his new book, The Big One: How We Must Prepare for Future Deadly Pandemics. They discuss the lessons learned from the COVID-19 pandemic, the major mistakes made in the public health response—including lockdowns, school closures, and border policies—the science of airborne versus droplet transmission, the promise and controversy of mRNA vaccines, the reality of vaccine adverse events, the politicization of vaccine hesitancy, and the erosion of scientific institutions like the CDC and HHS under the Trump administration. Looking forward, they explore the characteristics of a future, more deadly pandemic—what Osterholm calls "The Big One"—and what we should be doing to prepare for it. If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.

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