# #460 — When the Center Cannot Hold

An episode of [Making Sense with Sam Harris](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/733163012), 20 Feb 2026, 22 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/wakingup/Making_Sense_460_Jonah_Goldberg_paywall.mp3?dest-id=480596

Sam Harris speaks with Jonah Goldberg about the state of American conservatism and the Trump presidency. They discuss the politicization of federal institutions, the erosion of legal norms, the schism between Never Trump conservatives and the nationalist right, infighting over figures like Nick Fuentes, J.D. Vance's political future, a theory of mind for Tucker Carlson, the prospects for regime change in Iran, and other topics. If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.

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