# Land Ohne Vater: An Interview with Antonia Woloshyn

An episode of [Stuff They Don't Want You To Know](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/732915228), 7 Oct 2026, 57 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/2e824128-fbd5-4c9e-9a57-ae2f0056b0c4/5b0c3430-c8f4-4a8a-ab1a-b4dc010e4065/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=66d98a23-900c-44b0-a40b-ae2f0056b0db

Between 2007 and 2008, multiple small-business owners were brutally assassinated in Germany during what the local media would later dub the "Doner Murders". Germany's authorities were apparently baffled, until the world learned there was a nation-wide, far-right conspiracy at play -- and some of the same authorities investigating may have been compromised. In tonight's interview segment, the guys welcome the journalist and writer Antonia Woloshyn, the creator of the hit podcast Land Ohne Vater, for a deep dive into a profoundly disturbing examination of hate crime in Germany... and what these crimes may teach us about the past, present, and future. They don't want you to read our book.: https://static.macmillan.com/static/fib/stuff-you-should-read/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is
[0:04] Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
[0:09] Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
[0:12] Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
[0:26] Speaker 2: Hello and welcome back to the show. My name is Noel.
[0:28] Speaker 3: My name is Matt. Our colleague Ben is on an adventure,
[0:32] Speaker 3: but we'll be returning shortly. As always, we've got Dylan,
[0:35] Speaker 3: the Tennessee pal, in the driver's seat, so we're in
[0:37] Speaker 3: good hands.
[0:38] Speaker 2: You are you. You are here.
[0:40] Speaker 3: And that makes this the stuff they don't want you
[0:43] Speaker 3: to know. You guys, we have a guest today. This
[0:46] Speaker 3: is a very special episode. Our guest today is a journalist,
[0:50] Speaker 3: a writer, a fact checker, and a producer and host
[0:53] Speaker 3: of podcasts. Last year, she launched Land ohne Vater, a
[0:58] Speaker 3: German language podcast series from Campside Media and Wondery about
[1:02] Speaker 3: far-right terror in Germany. And this year, she wrote a
[1:05] Speaker 3: thought-provoking article for Now Voyager magazine titled, We Didn't Think
[1:10] Speaker 3: We Were Still Human. We're speaking with her today to
[1:13] Speaker 3: explore all of her work that she's been doing, to
[1:16] Speaker 3: discuss the ripples of extremism through time, and to think
[1:19] Speaker 3: about the lessons we humans have learned and lost in
[1:22] Speaker 3: our attempts to process our past. So, without further ado,
[1:26] Speaker 3: Antonia Woloshin, thank you for joining us.
[1:29] Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having us, guys. Big fan
[1:32] Speaker 4: of the show, so it's really exciting for me to
[1:34] Speaker 4: be here.
[1:34] Speaker 2: Well, we're a huge fan of your work as well,
[1:37] Speaker 2: and we were talking a little bit off mic. that
[1:40] Speaker 2: I did have the privilege to enjoy listening to the
[1:42] Speaker 2: first episode of La Nonna Vata. I often joke on
[1:44] Speaker 2: the podcast that I was once a small German boy.
[1:47] Speaker 2: I did grow up in Germany. I went to proper
[1:49] Speaker 2: German kindergarten, and I speak German at about a kindergarten level,
[1:52] Speaker 2: which was just enough to get me through and get
[1:55] Speaker 2: the broad strokes and take in the podcast as God intended.
[1:59] Speaker 2: But it's a fabulous work and really, really thought-provoking, beautifully
[2:02] Speaker 2: sound designed and narrated by you. And I know we'll
[2:06] Speaker 2: talk a little bit about the logistics of making a
[2:08] Speaker 2: German language podcast with an American company and a team
[2:12] Speaker 2: largely populated by English-only speakers. But before we get to that, Matt,
[2:18] Speaker 2: I know that you had some starting questions.
[2:20] Speaker 3: Well, just a little bit of housekeeping so we get
[2:22] Speaker 3: to know you a little better, Antonia. Your last name
[2:25] Speaker 3: may sound familiar to people who have hung out with
[2:28] Speaker 3: us over time. That's because we've had the pleasure of
[2:31] Speaker 3: having your husband on the show multiple times. Back in 2020,
[2:36] Speaker 3: he joined us to talk about Women of Juarez, a
[2:38] Speaker 3: podcast that he was host of and was a producer on.
[2:41] Speaker 3: And then again in 2023 to discuss Silenced, the radio murders.
[2:46] Speaker 3: And the big question here is, what is it like
[2:49] Speaker 3: to live in a house of two journalists?
[2:54] Speaker 4: Well, quite a few debates, I would say. definitely opinionated
[2:58] Speaker 4: both of us. Um, and I don't know, it's kind
[3:01] Speaker 4: of nice. We see the world to the same eyes.
[3:03] Speaker 4: Like traveling is more fun. We like to look at
[3:06] Speaker 4: the same kind of stuff. Um, and also the perks
[3:09] Speaker 4: of having like a perfect setup here. He left his
[3:12] Speaker 4: microphone here for me this morning. Like that's, that's pretty nice.
[3:15] Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, I guess at the end of the
[3:18] Speaker 2: day too, you're both fans of asking questions.
[3:22] Speaker 3: Oh man. And there's so many questions to be asked
[3:24] Speaker 3: these days. Uh, Just to start with a wide view
[3:28] Speaker 3: of our world right now before we jump into the
[3:31] Speaker 3: past in your work, you do have a master's from
[3:35] Speaker 3: the Columbia School of Journalism, I believe, yes?
[3:37] Speaker 4: That's right, yeah.
[3:39] Speaker 3: So what is your take, and this is a big question,
[3:42] Speaker 3: on journalism in general right now, the state of it,
[3:46] Speaker 3: when you're looking out at all the different publications and
[3:49] Speaker 3: what we're dealing with as human beings attempting to absorb
[3:53] Speaker 3: the news?
[3:54] Speaker 4: That's a really good question. And Naz and I talk
[3:56] Speaker 4: about that all the time. We are expecting a kid
[3:58] Speaker 4: and obviously wondering what she'll want to do. And I
[4:03] Speaker 4: don't know about journalism then. I mean, it's already such
[4:06] Speaker 4: a big investment to go to a school like that.
[4:09] Speaker 4: And then like the type of jobs, obviously things have
[4:12] Speaker 4: worked out for me and a lot of my friends now,
[4:14] Speaker 4: but it took a long time. And I don't know.
[4:18] Speaker 4: The state of news, it's obviously very much disrupted by
[4:22] Speaker 4: the kind of technological change we're going through. And yeah,
[4:25] Speaker 4: the way people are absorbing and especially as we're looking
[4:29] Speaker 4: at elections, you know, we had two far right wins,
[4:33] Speaker 4: very prominent ones in Germany recently. And obviously the way
[4:36] Speaker 4: people are digesting and consuming news is like a big
[4:40] Speaker 4: part of it. And And then also like these media
[4:45] Speaker 4: companies have to make money and they have to sell
[4:47] Speaker 4: stories and what kind of stories sell the most. So it's,
[4:51] Speaker 4: it's a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.
[4:54] Speaker 2: Well, it's tricky because I mean, they're competing with, you know,
[4:57] Speaker 2: people who didn't go to journalism school and are just
[4:59] Speaker 2: writing things, hot takes on Twitter. Like, you know, I
[5:02] Speaker 2: guess he used to be blogging and, Now, it's substacks
[5:04] Speaker 2: or various things like that where it doesn't necessarily– the
[5:06] Speaker 2: barrier to entry for being a purveyor of the quote-unquote
[5:09] Speaker 2: news is incredibly low. And you have some creators, whether
[5:13] Speaker 2: they be YouTubers or what I was mentioning before, that
[5:16] Speaker 2: are incredibly popular, but they're just not held to the
[5:19] Speaker 2: same journalistic standards. So sadly, it would seem that the
[5:21] Speaker 2: folks who came up holding themselves and their organizations to
[5:25] Speaker 2: those journalistic standards kind of have to loosen those a
[5:27] Speaker 2: little bit in order to compete in that space because
[5:30] Speaker 2: they are kind of playing in the same sandbox sometimes.
[5:32] Speaker 2: And it seems to me, too, that that is the
[5:35] Speaker 2: kind of thing that allows someone like Donald Trump to
[5:40] Speaker 2: call out against the quote unquote fake news. Ironically, some
[5:45] Speaker 2: of the organizations that he's banned in recent announcements from,
[5:49] Speaker 2: you know, coming to the White House and receiving press
[5:51] Speaker 2: passes and being part of the pool are what I
[5:53] Speaker 2: think probably folks like the three of us would look
[5:55] Speaker 2: at some of the most journalistically ethical organizations like Politico.
[5:59] Speaker 2: I mean, sure, they have their problems, but I think
[6:02] Speaker 2: the fact that there is such a gray area between,
[6:05] Speaker 2: you know, the Internet and the news media is what
[6:09] Speaker 2: allows someone like Donald Trump to call out against the
[6:12] Speaker 2: fake news, which I can't help but think of parallels
[6:16] Speaker 2: between the way that someone like Adolf Hitler referred to
[6:19] Speaker 2: the media, the Lügenpresse. I'm just wondering if you see
[6:21] Speaker 2: any of those parallels in terms of like the state.
[6:24] Speaker 2: journalism and if some of these issues are what's allowing
[6:27] Speaker 2: Donald Trump to kind of cast them as like an
[6:29] Speaker 2: enemy of the people.
[6:30] Speaker 4: Definitely. I mean, I went to a Trump rally in
[6:34] Speaker 4: 2016 when it became very clear to me that he
[6:36] Speaker 4: was going to become president. It was like three months
[6:39] Speaker 4: before the elections. And the main thing that I found
[6:42] Speaker 4: so disturbing was his, yeah, branding of the press and
[6:48] Speaker 4: that whole thing. And yeah, I mean, it's a lot
[6:52] Speaker 4: of forces coming together, but definitely helpful that we consume
[6:58] Speaker 4: news in such a different way. You know, what is
[7:00] Speaker 4: a fact anymore? I mean, we've been saying this for
[7:03] Speaker 4: like five years, but it's, I think, getting worse. Like,
[7:06] Speaker 4: can anybody agree on anything?
[7:08] Speaker 3: Well, I mean, surely the AI gods will tell us
[7:12] Speaker 3: what is real and what is not, he said sarcastically.
[7:17] Speaker 3: We know, and we're seeing this move to be anti-press
[7:22] Speaker 3: in a lot of countries. It's not just the U
[7:24] Speaker 3: S it's not just the current U S president. We are,
[7:27] Speaker 3: you know, seeing political parties move towards extremism, uh, in many,
[7:31] Speaker 3: especially Western world countries, uh, places where historically extremism has
[7:38] Speaker 3: been a problem. Uh, and we're going to get into
[7:40] Speaker 3: some of that today and we're going to look into
[7:43] Speaker 3: the past for those very, uh, things and see where
[7:46] Speaker 3: the ripples are occurring. Um, I think maybe the biggest
[7:49] Speaker 3: thing for me personally, guys, is the concept you hit
[7:52] Speaker 3: on there, Antonio, where these companies have to make money.
[7:56] Speaker 3: So access to various outlets and apps and even websites
[8:01] Speaker 3: is becoming, what do they call it, a share of
[8:04] Speaker 3: the wallet? Rather than just an open free press where
[8:08] Speaker 3: you can read a paper or you can open, you
[8:11] Speaker 3: can search online. for just terms and then find all
[8:16] Speaker 3: of these different publications giving slightly different takes on one
[8:19] Speaker 3: news story. Now it's, oh wait, who am I paying for?
[8:22] Speaker 3: I guess I'll just read that one. Sorry, just, ugh.
[8:28] Speaker 3: It means our understanding of the world is going to
[8:30] Speaker 3: be so siphoned and shaped by what we can afford.
[8:34] Speaker 4: That's a very good point as well. Yeah.
[8:37] Speaker 3: Uh-oh, now we have to hold on here for a second.
[8:39] Speaker 3: This is the thing we're calling Schrodinger's ad break.
[8:43] Speaker 4: Oh no.
[8:44] Speaker 3: Either going to be or not to be an ad
[8:47] Speaker 3: break after this.
[8:51] Speaker 2: Wait, was there? Was there? Wasn't there? Was there a
[8:53] Speaker 2: cat involved?
[8:53] Speaker 3: I don't know. Oh, you have to let us know.
[8:56] Speaker 2: Either way. Please do. Back to the show.
[8:58] Speaker 3: This year in July, we talked about it at the top.
[9:03] Speaker 3: You wrote a piece called We Didn't Think We Were
[9:05] Speaker 3: Still Human. It was published in a place called New
[9:08] Speaker 3: Voyager Magazine, a place that I didn't have a subscription to.
[9:11] Speaker 3: It's a place that requires a subscription, but thankfully for
[9:14] Speaker 3: all of us, if you sign up for a free account,
[9:16] Speaker 3: you can read this article right now. It's what I did,
[9:20] Speaker 3: and we highly recommend you take the time to do
[9:22] Speaker 3: that and use your free article for this purpose. Antonia,
[9:26] Speaker 3: can you please take us back through time just a
[9:30] Speaker 3: little ways? to Flossenburg, Germany, and tell us why you
[9:34] Speaker 3: went there and what you discovered there.
[9:37] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, shout out to No Voyager. They're an
[9:40] Speaker 4: amazing publication. They're really trying to do an old form
[9:45] Speaker 4: of journalism, and I think they're very much succeeding. They're
[9:48] Speaker 4: incredibly rigorous fact-checking and amazing editors, and they're both two
[9:53] Speaker 4: former New Yorker journalists. um and and i mean they
[9:57] Speaker 4: have a big team those are the two founders um
[10:02] Speaker 4: yeah i i think in the podcast or something that
[10:04] Speaker 4: kind of drew me to this whole story in the
[10:07] Speaker 4: beginning is as a german even as a kid you
[10:09] Speaker 4: know i was reading a lot of books about what
[10:11] Speaker 4: happened in our country and I think I always wondered, like,
[10:14] Speaker 4: what the hell would I have done? And the truth is,
[10:16] Speaker 4: I'll never know what I would have done. You know,
[10:18] Speaker 4: of course, I like to think I would have done something.
[10:20] Speaker 4: Maybe I would have just left, you know. And so
[10:24] Speaker 4: it was kind of this question of the, you know,
[10:28] Speaker 4: the complicity of the average German was something that we
[10:32] Speaker 4: touched upon in the podcast, but didn't go into depth.
[10:35] Speaker 4: And it was really interesting to... Yeah, at first it
[10:39] Speaker 4: was like an essay, I think. We talked about me
[10:42] Speaker 4: writing an essay for Now Voyage, a magazine about this question.
[10:46] Speaker 4: And then I was like, well, the perfect place to
[10:48] Speaker 4: go would be a place like Flossenburg. There aren't that
[10:50] Speaker 4: many in Germany, but it's a very small Bavarian village
[10:54] Speaker 4: with a concentration camp right in the middle. So a
[10:57] Speaker 4: population of less than 2,000 and a concentration camp in which... many,
[11:06] Speaker 4: many thousands of people suffered. And the question of like,
[11:10] Speaker 4: do these people that lived around the concentration camp have
[11:13] Speaker 4: more guilt than the rest of Germans? Like my grandparents,
[11:18] Speaker 4: for example. And ask me anything about what you found
[11:23] Speaker 4: interesting about Flossenburg, because I'll just go on.
[11:29] Speaker 3: Well, that's quite all right. I think one of the
[11:31] Speaker 3: most interesting things to me is thinking about that castle.
[11:34] Speaker 3: That is there, and then almost the town square, the
[11:39] Speaker 3: area that resonated so much with the past and its uses.
[11:43] Speaker 3: In the very beginning of the article, you're painting a
[11:45] Speaker 3: picture of where the people of the town go and
[11:50] Speaker 3: where they don't tend to spend a lot of time,
[11:53] Speaker 3: especially when they're celebrating or when they're having a joyful moment.
[11:59] Speaker 3: Even the physical places in the town that people kind
[12:02] Speaker 3: of keep hidden away from themselves was really interesting to me.
[12:07] Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, they have a
[12:11] Speaker 4: yearly festival in Bavaria, which is like dressed up in,
[12:16] Speaker 4: you know, traditional clothes and lots of beer and happens
[12:19] Speaker 4: in all the villages, including mine. And they celebrate it
[12:27] Speaker 4: on the grounds of the former concentration camp, which is...
[12:32] Speaker 4: just so hard to digest um and i think people
[12:39] Speaker 4: that live there have very much gotten used to you
[12:42] Speaker 4: know it's a sloping village there isn't much big big
[12:47] Speaker 4: space um so that's like the perfect spot but of
[12:50] Speaker 4: course people from the outside that are coming in are
[12:52] Speaker 4: like this is This is pretty crazy.
[12:55] Speaker 2: Yeah. But there's a term, a German term, I'm fascinated
[12:59] Speaker 2: by the ability of the German language to sum up
[13:02] Speaker 2: very complex concepts in single words, often very long words.
[13:06] Speaker 2: And one of my favorites is Vergangenheitsbewältigung, which I think
[13:10] Speaker 2: is often associated with World War II, post-war reckoning with
[13:14] Speaker 2: the Holocaust and the Nazi regime. But it really is
[13:17] Speaker 2: a concept just of coping with the past. And it
[13:20] Speaker 2: is something that is very important to this day in Germany.
[13:23] Speaker 2: I mean, you'll often see in museums, perhaps even that
[13:26] Speaker 2: were founded by Nazi sympathizers or even outright Nazi party members,
[13:31] Speaker 2: there will be something on the plaque, just fully acknowledging
[13:33] Speaker 2: that fact, you know, when you walk in and this
[13:35] Speaker 2: openness and acknowledgement of the dark past is something that
[13:39] Speaker 2: is incredibly German. Is that an aspect that you were
[13:42] Speaker 2: exploring as well in speaking to some of these folks
[13:45] Speaker 2: that are living in the literal shadow of a, a
[13:48] Speaker 2: place where the most horrible things that could happen to
[13:50] Speaker 2: human beings happened?
[13:51] Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, we get a
[13:54] Speaker 4: lot of credit, especially from the international community for how
[13:58] Speaker 4: we've dealt with the past and overcame it. But I mean,
[14:01] Speaker 4: let's get real. We had no other choice. And the
[14:04] Speaker 4: Americans very much helped us with, you know, facing up
[14:09] Speaker 4: to it. Then I think our denazification efforts, so efforts
[14:13] Speaker 4: to get people or former Nazis out of positions of power,
[14:20] Speaker 4: keeping them out, was sort of earnest in the beginning
[14:23] Speaker 4: and then half-hearted because obviously we were all and the
[14:27] Speaker 4: Americans who were in charge of us were afraid of
[14:30] Speaker 4: a Soviet invasion at the time. So it's like a
[14:33] Speaker 4: little bit of a mixed picture, but overall very grateful
[14:37] Speaker 4: that we can, you know, be proud of the way
[14:40] Speaker 4: we coped with the past because we got a lot
[14:43] Speaker 4: of help. But yeah, I think people in this town
[14:50] Speaker 4: are a little bit annoyed, you know, that people are
[14:52] Speaker 4: pointing at them and saying, you know, why didn't you
[14:56] Speaker 4: do anything? How can you celebrate that? How can you
[14:59] Speaker 4: live there? And they're like, listen, we don't have that
[15:03] Speaker 4: much opportunity or means here. Like we're just doing our best.
[15:07] Speaker 4: And like, what did you do in Munich or in Frankfurt?
[15:12] Speaker 4: And the fact is that you know, so many Germans
[15:15] Speaker 4: participated in auctions of stolen Jewish property. Now we're seeing
[15:22] Speaker 4: how many people voted for the Nazi party or were
[15:25] Speaker 4: members because these files were made public this year and
[15:31] Speaker 4: millions of Germans are searching those files for clues about
[15:36] Speaker 4: what their ancestors did. And yeah, I think people in
[15:40] Speaker 4: the town have a little bit there's also an interesting
[15:43] Speaker 4: atmosphere there because it's like, they've had all this time to,
[15:49] Speaker 4: to deal with the outside perspective, um, which is always
[15:53] Speaker 4: like shock and dismay. Um, and, and in turn, I
[15:59] Speaker 4: found them very honest, um, about what their, what their
[16:04] Speaker 4: ancestors did. And, you know, there was a lot of
[16:09] Speaker 4: messy complicity, you know, they could, borrow, literally go to
[16:15] Speaker 4: the concentration camp administration and say, I have a farm,
[16:19] Speaker 4: I need help, or I need some painting work done,
[16:23] Speaker 4: can you give me some prisoners? And that, you know.
[16:29] Speaker 3: Yeah. It's such a complex thing to grapple with personally,
[16:35] Speaker 3: like internally, personally, as a single human being, but then
[16:39] Speaker 3: On such a mass scale, it seems so difficult. I
[16:42] Speaker 3: think something that we've talked about before on the show
[16:48] Speaker 3: is things like Operation Paperclip, where individuals who are viewed,
[16:53] Speaker 3: at least by the U.S. government, as being highly potentially helpful,
[16:59] Speaker 3: especially people in the fields of science, medicine, those things
[17:02] Speaker 3: like that, were kind of.
[17:05] Speaker 2: Given a pass?
[17:07] Speaker 3: Yeah, given a pass, at least in the eyes of
[17:09] Speaker 3: the law, for whatever they had been a part of.
[17:13] Speaker 2: For their Nazi complicity. In other words, just to make
[17:15] Speaker 2: sure we're on the same page. Yeah, no, you're right.
[17:17] Speaker 4: Yep.
[17:18] Speaker 3: But to increase the U.S. strength in whatever realm, if
[17:23] Speaker 3: it was for NASA or.
[17:25] Speaker 2: Great or good argument. Good old-fashioned, right?
[17:28] Speaker 3: Those things have always been really interesting and complicated in...
[17:31] Speaker 3: And when you really start to unpack them and imagine
[17:33] Speaker 3: the potential good that has come from those individuals who
[17:38] Speaker 3: did such harm to others, it's so complicated. I'm really
[17:44] Speaker 3: interested in this denazification thing as a series of events
[17:54] Speaker 3: and protocols that occurred over the course of decades. where
[17:58] Speaker 3: it kind of rose and fell depending on the needs
[18:01] Speaker 3: and the, and as you're saying, the fears of a
[18:03] Speaker 3: potential enemy that is outside existential to anyone and everyone
[18:08] Speaker 3: involved in those movements, right? Especially between Germany and the
[18:12] Speaker 3: U S at the time. Um, I'm interested in how
[18:17] Speaker 3: a common enemy in a lot of ways unites humanity,
[18:21] Speaker 3: despite our differences in our past. And I wonder how
[18:26] Speaker 3: maybe the need for that, for like, military machines and
[18:31] Speaker 3: industries um how the need for that pushes us towards
[18:35] Speaker 3: wherever we're heading right now because it feels like we
[18:38] Speaker 3: sure are someone out there or maybe just through our
[18:42] Speaker 3: own just regular processes as governments and giant you know
[18:47] Speaker 3: capitalist machines we need that enemy and we're making these
[18:50] Speaker 3: new enemies that we're all maybe turning our heads towards
[18:54] Speaker 3: I just want to wonder what you're seeing in your
[18:57] Speaker 3: part of the world when it comes to that, when
[18:58] Speaker 3: you see America and Germany all looking at the Middle
[19:01] Speaker 3: East again as the big bad that we need to
[19:04] Speaker 3: take care of.
[19:05] Speaker 4: Totally. And it's interesting how alliances have shifted. You know,
[19:09] Speaker 4: America and Germany, like historically, have always stood side by side.
[19:13] Speaker 4: And now it's like America's right aligning with our right,
[19:20] Speaker 4: like Vance at the Munich Security Conference and obviously Trump.
[19:24] Speaker 4: and Musk weighing in on our current elections. Yeah, things,
[19:31] Speaker 4: alliances shift, but God, a common enemy is powerful.
[19:35] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[19:37] Speaker 3: Well, and oil is still very intriguing to several industries
[19:45] Speaker 3: that happen to make large campaign donations.
[19:48] Speaker 4: What, what, what? said that?
[19:52] Speaker 2: No question about it. Well, maybe speaking of common enemies,
[19:55] Speaker 2: we could pivot a little bit into the contents of
[19:58] Speaker 2: the podcast, Land ohne Vater, which translates to, I believe,
[20:02] Speaker 2: Land Without a Father, which is a play on the
[20:05] Speaker 2: German concept of the fatherland. But this is also about
[20:07] Speaker 2: people who have lost land. loved ones to this right-wing extremism.
[20:14] Speaker 2: And it would seem that in your story, the common
[20:17] Speaker 2: enemy are folks of Turkish and Greek origin. At least
[20:21] Speaker 2: those are the ones that are getting the brunt of
[20:23] Speaker 2: this political right-wing violence. But it really is just a
[20:27] Speaker 2: matter of identifying an other of some sort. Could you
[20:32] Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about the concept or the
[20:36] Speaker 2: crimes that are at the heart of of Landownervater?
[20:39] Speaker 4: Yes. It was at a time, the murder started right
[20:43] Speaker 4: around 9-11, and so our joint focus obviously was elsewhere.
[20:48] Speaker 4: And it was also a time when kids of immigrants
[20:55] Speaker 4: could get citizenship. So I think the growing neo-Nazi movement
[21:01] Speaker 4: and the terrorists that came out of that, especially one
[21:05] Speaker 4: state in the east, and wanted to really set an
[21:10] Speaker 4: example and put an end to this development. And it's
[21:18] Speaker 4: basically two guys and a woman who were also romantically
[21:25] Speaker 4: entangled throughout this period. They were pretty radical, already building bombs, etc.
[21:32] Speaker 4: And then they went underground, which apparently in Germany means like,
[21:36] Speaker 4: moving an hour away from where you live and renting
[21:39] Speaker 4: an apartment and getting new passports. And yeah, they targeted
[21:46] Speaker 4: and murdered nine men with immigrant backgrounds, Turkish and Greek,
[21:53] Speaker 4: and a policewoman. And the policewoman is the most mysterious
[21:58] Speaker 4: and unsolved and open for interpretation. Some say conspiracy theories.
[22:04] Speaker 4: I don't think so. Sure. And the podcast is told
[22:12] Speaker 4: through two women who very kindly and bravely gave us
[22:16] Speaker 4: a lot of their time. A woman called Gamze Kubashik
[22:21] Speaker 4: and Simia Shimshik, whose fathers... were small business owners. By
[22:25] Speaker 4: the way, all of the men murdered were successful small
[22:30] Speaker 4: business owners. And yeah, the German police, instead of looking
[22:37] Speaker 4: for the murders, surveilled the families until this terror network
[22:47] Speaker 4: exposed themselves by killing themselves and they sent DVDs throughout
[22:51] Speaker 4: the country to media organizations, etc. But up until that point,
[22:56] Speaker 4: the German police was adamant that it had to be
[23:00] Speaker 4: an inside job, a Turkish mafia, a flower mafia. They
[23:03] Speaker 4: came up with absurd, like almost comical conspiracy theories. And
[23:10] Speaker 4: there was a FBI profiler in the U.S. whose help
[23:15] Speaker 4: was solicited by the German police at some point. And
[23:19] Speaker 4: he said, you know, he looked at the files that
[23:21] Speaker 4: they gave him and he was like, yeah, it's a
[23:24] Speaker 4: right-wing motivation, very clear. And the German police ignored him
[23:30] Speaker 4: and just continued. And it was an extremely traumatic time
[23:35] Speaker 4: for the victim's families and I think continues to be.
[23:39] Speaker 4: Because the trial that we saw also, I mean, some
[23:45] Speaker 4: say it was a farce. Some say it was, you know,
[23:48] Speaker 4: obviously just a way for the German government to save
[23:51] Speaker 4: face in some way. But, you know, somewhere along the spectrum,
[23:54] Speaker 4: it was definitely not designed to get rid of the
[24:01] Speaker 4: neo-Nazi networks that were built. That was not the intention
[24:04] Speaker 4: of the trial.
[24:05] Speaker 2: Well, it's so interesting because the media dubbed these killings,
[24:09] Speaker 2: they'll have a splashy headline, the Döner murders, because two
[24:12] Speaker 2: of the victims owned food carts that sold these famous
[24:17] Speaker 2: kebabs that are really, really, really popular in Germany. It's
[24:22] Speaker 2: kind of interesting because it's almost in the same way
[24:24] Speaker 2: that curry is borderline the national food of England, or
[24:28] Speaker 2: London rather. Same with the Döner kebabs. I mean, they're ubiquitous.
[24:32] Speaker 2: You can't walk a block without seeing probably three Doner shops.
[24:36] Speaker 2: And this is the direct results. They're fantastic. Oh, they're
[24:39] Speaker 2: the best thing in the whole wide world. They're literally,
[24:41] Speaker 2: I just adore them. And strangely, even here in New
[24:44] Speaker 2: York City, you don't see them. They're very few in
[24:47] Speaker 2: the same exact way. You'll have like shawarma and things
[24:49] Speaker 2: like that, but not this very specific type of confection,
[24:53] Speaker 2: which has got like red cabbage and this like spicy sauce.
[24:55] Speaker 2: And anyway, don't get me started on doner kebabs. But
[24:58] Speaker 2: I guess my point is that this is a product
[25:00] Speaker 2: of immigration. The fact that these are so entrenched in
[25:03] Speaker 2: German culture. almost more so even than like a schnitzel
[25:07] Speaker 2: or something. I mean, they're just beloved. Do you think
[25:10] Speaker 2: that is kind of what made these folks a target?
[25:13] Speaker 2: This representation of like how this has found its way
[25:17] Speaker 2: into culture? This is exactly the opposite of what they
[25:20] Speaker 2: want to see happen. Like this shouldn't be in terms
[25:23] Speaker 2: of like the idea of how immigration is absorbed and
[25:27] Speaker 2: becomes part of a culture?
[25:30] Speaker 4: I think that's a very good point. That's exactly it.
[25:32] Speaker 4: I mean, from music, culture, that was a point, food, where,
[25:39] Speaker 4: you know, definitely, I mean, Turkish people are such a
[25:44] Speaker 4: big part of Germany. I mean, saying Turkish people, German
[25:48] Speaker 4: people with Turkish backgrounds is a better way of saying it.
[25:51] Speaker 4: It's totally, I mean, especially Berlin. What would Berlin be without...
[25:57] Speaker 4: Turkish people it's just unimaginable um I think definitely I
[26:02] Speaker 4: mean they're just really good old Nazis that um you
[26:06] Speaker 4: know everything really what their values align very closely with
[26:14] Speaker 4: what Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party wanted for Germany
[26:17] Speaker 4: it's um and even some of the memorabilia and like
[26:20] Speaker 4: the language.
[26:21] Speaker 2: It's it's one-to-one Which is illegal, by the way, to own.
[26:26] Speaker 2: Is that still the case, to own Nazi memorabilia and
[26:29] Speaker 2: historical art of paraphernalia, things like that? How does that
[26:32] Speaker 2: actually work in terms of the law? I might be
[26:34] Speaker 2: a little, you know, not quite right on that.
[26:38] Speaker 4: And that is, that's totally right. Illegal to own, it's
[26:41] Speaker 4: illegal to use phrases, for example, like Heil Hitler, but
[26:46] Speaker 4: people get around by just using the alphabet. So the eighth... H,
[26:54] Speaker 4: which stands for HH. They use 8-8. Things like that.
[27:00] Speaker 2: Dog whistle type things.
[27:02] Speaker 4: Josh Dean said very interestingly, you guys try to legislate
[27:06] Speaker 4: your way out of it. And I think, you know, again,
[27:11] Speaker 4: a lot in Germany, I think that was such an
[27:13] Speaker 4: interesting point because a lot of the things I feel
[27:15] Speaker 4: like we do are for the outside perspective and how
[27:19] Speaker 4: things look. But we definitely, I mean... wholly underestimated what
[27:25] Speaker 4: was growing in Germany, what is now supporting the AFD.
[27:30] Speaker 4: They have so many local neo-Nazi groups on the ground
[27:36] Speaker 4: that made these elections happen as well.
[27:38] Speaker 2: That's the far-right political party?
[27:41] Speaker 4: Yeah. Correct.
[27:41] Speaker 3: That has recently won significant victories, right?
[27:46] Speaker 4: That's right, yeah.
[27:47] Speaker 2: Okay, let's take a quick break here. We'll hear a
[27:49] Speaker 2: word from our sponsor, and then we'll jump right back
[27:51] Speaker 2: in with Antonia. And we're back.
[28:00] Speaker 3: I want to make a point here really fast. Ever
[28:04] Speaker 3: since I have been aware of the world and news
[28:08] Speaker 3: and fully understanding it, and this may sound very ignorant,
[28:15] Speaker 3: it feels as though neo-Nazi groups and a lot of
[28:19] Speaker 3: the white supremacist groups, especially here in the U.S., They
[28:23] Speaker 3: have been almost just poked fun at. And there's an
[28:28] Speaker 3: awareness that they exist. And it is strange to see
[28:33] Speaker 3: such a resurgence. And I'm especially thinking about the years
[28:38] Speaker 3: we're talking about in the podcast. Because we're talking about
[28:42] Speaker 3: the 2000s, right? This isn't some faraway past. This is,
[28:48] Speaker 3: God is going to age me, but this is when
[28:50] Speaker 3: I was in high school, okay? So I'm just imagining
[28:55] Speaker 3: how much it has grown since then. If this was
[29:00] Speaker 3: able to exist at that time and kind of function
[29:04] Speaker 3: under the radar to the point where the police are
[29:06] Speaker 3: looking at completely different things and somehow led astray from
[29:11] Speaker 3: what would appear to be leads. That would be fruitful,
[29:17] Speaker 3: and then conspiracy theories grow from them, and then to
[29:19] Speaker 3: see the AFD and to see in the U.S. what's
[29:21] Speaker 3: happening with our political parties, one of them in particular.
[29:25] Speaker 2: I think it never went away for either of our
[29:28] Speaker 2: countries in terms of America getting past racism and our
[29:32] Speaker 2: dark past of slavery. It just became not in vogue anymore.
[29:36] Speaker 2: So you had to take it underground, and when you
[29:37] Speaker 2: take things underground, it becomes even more extreme. And then
[29:40] Speaker 2: you have these counter waves that do poke fun, to
[29:44] Speaker 2: your point, Matt, at these types of beliefs and maybe
[29:47] Speaker 2: even more working class folks. And that pisses them off
[29:49] Speaker 2: and radicalizes them even further. And then you have someone
[29:52] Speaker 2: like a Trump or this AFD that comes in and
[29:55] Speaker 2: takes advantage of these people feeling belittled. and mocked, and
[29:58] Speaker 2: then all of a sudden raises them up and mainstreams
[30:00] Speaker 2: the thing again. Sorry, I just... Yeah, no, you're right.
[30:06] Speaker 4: Couldn't agree more. And to some degree, maybe in history,
[30:10] Speaker 4: it's always like a tug and pull of, let's say,
[30:13] Speaker 4: conservative forces and liberal forces, and maybe we'll always go
[30:18] Speaker 4: back and forth. But I also agree about the belittling,
[30:21] Speaker 4: by the way.
[30:22] Speaker 2: A hundred percent. I mean, the liberals have always overplayed
[30:25] Speaker 2: their hand in that regard. And just, you know, there's
[30:28] Speaker 2: a fascinating interview on Channel 5 with Hunter Biden. And
[30:32] Speaker 2: one of those, I think it's Nick Fuentes, and obviously
[30:35] Speaker 2: a horrible guy. I don't believe, I don't share any
[30:38] Speaker 2: of his beliefs.
[30:39] Speaker 4: That's an interesting pairing.
[30:40] Speaker 2: But he points out that a big part of what
[30:42] Speaker 2: radicalized him was being made to feel powerless. Absolutely.
[30:49] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[30:50] Speaker 3: Forget it. I'm just going back in my head and
[30:52] Speaker 3: imagining all of the comedy films and TV shows that
[30:55] Speaker 3: came out that cast neo-Nazis as a foil, as something
[31:00] Speaker 3: to be poked fun at, right? And just belittled and
[31:04] Speaker 3: sarcastically mentioned and shown. And again, not that those groups
[31:10] Speaker 3: should be lifted up in any way, it's just when
[31:13] Speaker 3: they're the butt of the joke... Rather than being taken seriously,
[31:17] Speaker 3: I think that's exactly what you get. Gosh, so going
[31:20] Speaker 3: back to this time in the 2000s, what is our
[31:23] Speaker 3: range of dates there for these murders and investigation and
[31:27] Speaker 3: all of that? What time frame are we in?
[31:29] Speaker 4: So they go, the three of them go underground in 1998, 1999.
[31:32] Speaker 4: And the last murder happens in 2011 and on, yeah.
[31:41] Speaker 4: So it's a long time. And that FBI profiler that
[31:44] Speaker 4: I was talking about said to his German colleagues in 2006,
[31:48] Speaker 4: five years before, this is clearly right-wing motivated, which everyone
[31:53] Speaker 4: in the Turkish-German community knew, of course.
[31:56] Speaker 2: Well, we love a good operation.
[31:58] Speaker 4: Because it was so obvious.
[31:59] Speaker 2: Oh, of course. Well, we love a good name of
[32:01] Speaker 2: an operation. Matt mentioned Operation Paperclip. La Nonovata, as a podcast,
[32:05] Speaker 2: had an alternative title or a working title, which was
[32:07] Speaker 2: Operation Confetti. And I know Ben, who couldn't make it today,
[32:10] Speaker 2: was particularly fascinated in the backstory of what that is
[32:13] Speaker 2: all about. Could you tell us a little bit about
[32:15] Speaker 2: Operation Confetti?
[32:16] Speaker 4: That was... 11th of the 11th, so November 11th, is
[32:25] Speaker 4: when we celebrate Carnival in West Germany, in Cologne specifically.
[32:29] Speaker 4: That's also where the headquarters of the Foreign Intelligence Service
[32:32] Speaker 4: were at the time. Sorry, domestic. And when.
[32:39] Speaker 4: This whole thing blew up and suddenly these two guys
[32:44] Speaker 4: committed suicide. The woman was on the run and Germany
[32:49] Speaker 4: was about to face that, you know, 10 people had
[32:53] Speaker 4: been murdered. And the Donner murders was, you know, a
[32:58] Speaker 4: horrible farce. And then, of course, the question of like
[33:03] Speaker 4: whose head they're going to roll, like how is this
[33:05] Speaker 4: going to be communicated? How is the damage going to
[33:07] Speaker 4: be controlled? became very imminent and in the headquarters of
[33:13] Speaker 4: the intelligence service they decided why not on the day
[33:17] Speaker 4: when everybody's busy celebrating and there's lots of confetti in
[33:21] Speaker 4: town and so that was where the nickname came from
[33:24] Speaker 4: and dumped by the press or a politician of the
[33:27] Speaker 4: green party they destroyed the records of intelligence agents connected
[33:32] Speaker 4: to this network. These records would very clearly show that
[33:38] Speaker 4: the intelligence service was aware of the murder.
[33:41] Speaker 2: Borderline aiding in some of these acts, isn't that right?
[33:45] Speaker 2: Is that overstating the case a little bit? They were
[33:47] Speaker 2: supportive of these types of attitudes. There was inside of
[33:51] Speaker 2: the government and inside of these agencies folks that were
[33:53] Speaker 2: sympathetic to this kind of stuff. Is that the takeaway?
[33:57] Speaker 4: There was one agent who was present during one of
[33:59] Speaker 4: the murders.
[34:00] Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.
[34:01] Speaker 4: Yeah wow so make of it what you will oh man.
[34:08] Speaker 3: Makes me think of a rage against the machine song
[34:13] Speaker 3: well those some of those who work forces are the
[34:16] Speaker 3: same that burn crosses uh.
[34:19] Speaker 2: Well there's another parallel when we were talking about the
[34:21] Speaker 2: you know our contending with the past of our country
[34:24] Speaker 2: in the united states of racism and Slavery, then this
[34:27] Speaker 2: idea of, well, racism didn't disappear just because a black
[34:30] Speaker 2: man was elected president. It just went further underground. And
[34:33] Speaker 2: for some of that, that also just means that folks
[34:35] Speaker 2: in police force were still harboring some of these feelings,
[34:39] Speaker 2: but it wasn't politically acceptable or in vogue to voice
[34:43] Speaker 2: them out loud. That doesn't mean that's not tempering the
[34:47] Speaker 2: way that you're treating people, you know, in carrying out
[34:51] Speaker 2: of your duties. So I think there's some of that
[34:53] Speaker 2: as well, some of these neo-Nazi ideals that as a
[34:57] Speaker 2: country maybe we quote unquote denazified, made efforts to remove
[35:01] Speaker 2: some of these prominent folks from power. Maybe there's more
[35:04] Speaker 2: of an optics effort there than actually a systemic sort
[35:09] Speaker 2: of purging. And a lot of those folks still occupied
[35:11] Speaker 2: positions of power, right? Yeah.
[35:14] Speaker 4: And it's also very much a strategy of new Nazis
[35:17] Speaker 4: to go into police, go into law enforcement, go into counterintelligence, education.
[35:26] Speaker 4: So I think that's also part of it.
[35:29] Speaker 3: Great. Hopefully you heard that, the tone there.
[35:36] Speaker 2: No, no, I got it.
[35:39] Speaker 3: I keep thinking about those conspiracy theories that were brought
[35:41] Speaker 3: up early on in the investigations. Does it seem as
[35:45] Speaker 3: though folks who were in some of these positions who
[35:48] Speaker 3: felt the ways they felt maybe steered the investigation in
[35:52] Speaker 3: those ways to maintain, to allow it to continue?
[35:56] Speaker 4: So for the police force, I think it was structural racism.
[36:03] Speaker 4: They were blind. They came in with so many preconceived
[36:08] Speaker 4: notions about who these people were and what their motivations were.
[36:12] Speaker 4: these people, the victims and their families. And we don't
[36:17] Speaker 4: know of anyone who had clear-cut motivations in that way.
[36:21] Speaker 4: I think for the intelligence service, it's a little bit
[36:25] Speaker 4: more tricky. Why, when you know that this is going
[36:29] Speaker 4: on and you have so many people tapped around that network,
[36:34] Speaker 4: and by the way, very much financially supported that network,
[36:39] Speaker 4: they poured thousands into it by paying the agents. One
[36:44] Speaker 4: of the agents, a neo-Nazi, said they would have never
[36:49] Speaker 4: been able to grow this movement without the intelligence service
[36:52] Speaker 4: and the money that was poured in. There it gets
[36:55] Speaker 4: a little bit more tricky. And I think, yeah, you're
[36:58] Speaker 4: complicit if you don't stop the murders, if you don't
[37:00] Speaker 4: communicate it. But again, except for this one agent who
[37:06] Speaker 4: was actually present. And by the way, they did find
[37:09] Speaker 4: neo-Nazi memorabilia in his house when he was younger and
[37:13] Speaker 4: he was called little Hitler in his hometown. So, I mean,
[37:19] Speaker 4: no doubt about his motivation.
[37:22] Speaker 2: And similar to, you know, what happens with like CIA
[37:25] Speaker 2: operations here in the US, you can always make the
[37:27] Speaker 2: argument of, well, we didn't want to blow our cover.
[37:30] Speaker 2: We didn't want to, we were playing the long game.
[37:33] Speaker 2: You know, if we come down on these individuals, we
[37:35] Speaker 2: won't be able to get the big fish at the end,
[37:38] Speaker 2: you know? So you can always kind of make that
[37:40] Speaker 2: greater good argument, which is often a spurious one at best.
[37:46] Speaker 4: That's exactly it. And that's exactly what by law they're allowed,
[37:53] Speaker 4: why they're allowed to hold back. And that was their justification.
[37:58] Speaker 4: And I don't think anybody was held to account.
[38:01] Speaker 2: Very, very few folks served prison sentences, if I'm not mistaken,
[38:05] Speaker 2: and not particularly aggressive ones at that, right?
[38:09] Speaker 4: Yeah there was um i mean i think it was
[38:13] Speaker 4: she's the only one who's still in prison and the
[38:16] Speaker 4: other ones were all below five years um around five
[38:20] Speaker 4: years and she's now in a um denazification program program
[38:26] Speaker 4: i guess a modern one where you know she she's
[38:31] Speaker 4: obviously trying to get out of prison and is proving
[38:33] Speaker 4: wants to prove that she's changed but There's a lot
[38:36] Speaker 4: of things that came to light of her prison time
[38:39] Speaker 4: and how she behaved inside prison and her communication with
[38:43] Speaker 4: neo-Nazis on the outside. So I very much doubt that
[38:47] Speaker 4: she's changed her ways.
[38:49] Speaker 2: Tell us her name. I think we maybe buried the
[38:51] Speaker 2: lead on that one. This individual who's still in prison.
[38:55] Speaker 4: Beate Cipri.
[38:56] Speaker 2: So are we talking about like therapy-based stuff? Like these
[39:00] Speaker 2: are sessions where you're like, Being deprogrammed or what is
[39:04] Speaker 2: the denazification program? That's fascinating to me.
[39:07] Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, it's obviously not called that anymore as
[39:12] Speaker 4: being German and trying to be funny.
[39:14] Speaker 2: No, I get it. I'm curious as to what this entails. Like,
[39:17] Speaker 2: it's fascinating.
[39:18] Speaker 4: Yeah. I actually know, curiously know the guy that runs
[39:23] Speaker 4: a program that accepted her because a lot of other
[39:25] Speaker 4: programs didn't because they were like, it's transparent why she
[39:28] Speaker 4: wants to join. And I'd be curious to talk to
[39:32] Speaker 4: him and understand why he allowed her to join. And yeah,
[39:37] Speaker 4: it's working with other neo-Nazis that left, not in her case,
[39:42] Speaker 4: but in other cases of people that aren't imprisoned, you know,
[39:46] Speaker 4: sometimes they get new identities. And they're moved somewhere else
[39:50] Speaker 4: because of the threat or retaliation that they receive. But yeah,
[39:55] Speaker 4: I think it's just, I don't know if they actually
[39:58] Speaker 4: have licensed therapists or if it's just sort of people
[40:03] Speaker 4: in the field that try to understand how serious they
[40:07] Speaker 4: are and sort of move them out of that process.
[40:10] Speaker 2: It's like AA or NA or something like that. like
[40:13] Speaker 2: a group where you're sharing your experiences and you have
[40:15] Speaker 2: a moderator I imagine to try to get everyone to
[40:18] Speaker 2: see maybe that these things were wrong and ruined your
[40:20] Speaker 2: life I'm just picturing it you know.
[40:22] Speaker 4: That's yeah and I think then the key point for
[40:27] Speaker 4: them if they can I think they'll want to see
[40:33] Speaker 4: if they can really cut ties with people right yeah
[40:37] Speaker 4: and with her it'll be harder to know I think
[40:39] Speaker 4: the only person she's in contact with is her lawyer
[40:41] Speaker 4: and her mother But she's got a big fan base,
[40:46] Speaker 4: I mean.
[40:47] Speaker 2: Oh, of course.
[40:48] Speaker 4: We'll see. I think she's got a big career ahead
[40:50] Speaker 4: of her still.
[40:52] Speaker 2: You put it like that. No, I totally understand what
[40:55] Speaker 2: you mean.
[40:56] Speaker 3: Hey, speaking of journalism, I know a lot of places
[40:59] Speaker 3: that need commenters, I guess, commentators, to show up and
[41:05] Speaker 3: talk about things, and they need to have the right leaning,
[41:09] Speaker 3: depending on the outlet.
[41:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, who knows? You could get a cabinet position out
[41:12] Speaker 2: of it.
[41:12] Speaker 4: Hey, hey.
[41:13] Speaker 3: Yeah, truly. Don't rule it out. Guys, I want to
[41:18] Speaker 3: switch gears. Noel, if it's okay, I want to switch
[41:20] Speaker 3: gears again back to the article.
[41:21] Speaker 2: I know I've been talking a lot. Thank you.
[41:24] Speaker 3: Just want to go back to the article because there's
[41:26] Speaker 3: a character in there that I came to really appreciate
[41:29] Speaker 3: and care about over the course of quite a lengthy article,
[41:33] Speaker 3: which is really cool to see because so much of,
[41:37] Speaker 3: Thought nowadays occurs in little tiny blips and just a
[41:42] Speaker 3: headline and a couple of images. And you go, oh,
[41:45] Speaker 3: I understand that now. You may think to yourself, there's
[41:49] Speaker 3: a character named Leon, L-E-O-N, that you talk about. And
[41:54] Speaker 3: there's so many interesting things about him. Is this a
[41:58] Speaker 3: human that you met and spent time with and talked
[42:01] Speaker 3: to and learned about his life?
[42:02] Speaker 2: Can you just tell us about him?
[42:04] Speaker 4: Incredible guy. He's 100 years old, but like kind of
[42:09] Speaker 4: a magnetic energy and, you know, kind of, I don't
[42:15] Speaker 4: want to say flirtatious because that's not what I mean,
[42:18] Speaker 4: but he had like a, I don't know, a zest
[42:21] Speaker 4: for life. And yes, he survived Flossenburg. and a bunch
[42:29] Speaker 4: of other camps after he was imprisoned with his family
[42:32] Speaker 4: in a ghetto in Lodz in Poland. And remarkably after
[42:38] Speaker 4: the war, he decided to study in Germany, become a doctor,
[42:42] Speaker 4: which is incredible because obviously when he was liberated, he
[42:48] Speaker 4: was extremely undernourished. I don't know what he was in pounds, but, um,
[42:53] Speaker 4: and a year later he was enrolled at university after
[42:56] Speaker 4: not have gone to school. Managed to get a doctor's
[42:59] Speaker 4: degree and married a German woman whose uncle was in
[43:05] Speaker 4: the SS. And when he went to visit his family,
[43:09] Speaker 4: he was like, yeah, my only request is that I
[43:11] Speaker 4: don't meet the uncle. But just, I was just amazed
[43:16] Speaker 4: at the strength of, I mean, trauma doesn't even begin
[43:21] Speaker 4: to describe what he's been through in this country. And
[43:24] Speaker 4: then he's able to study among Germans, marry a German woman.
[43:29] Speaker 4: Just the strength of character it takes is incredible.
[43:34] Speaker 3: Well, and the woman he married was not just German.
[43:38] Speaker 3: And maybe this is why it's so interesting to me.
[43:40] Speaker 3: She was a part of, I think, what would be
[43:43] Speaker 3: known as a Hitler youth group, I guess, when she
[43:46] Speaker 3: was a child. And just to see that humans.
[43:51] Speaker 3: Have such depth to us individually. And then together, gosh,
[43:56] Speaker 3: that depth is almost immeasurable because you can have two
[43:59] Speaker 3: people that fall in love despite one of them going
[44:02] Speaker 3: through that. And, you know, there's an attempt at, I
[44:05] Speaker 3: was going to use the term brainwashing.
[44:07] Speaker 2: I think that's about right, Matt.
[44:10] Speaker 3: But turning this child into something, right? Creating an ideology
[44:14] Speaker 3: bubble around that child to then turn her into something.
[44:17] Speaker 2: Well, that's why they like to infiltrate education to, to
[44:20] Speaker 2: the earlier point. You know, it is about creating these
[44:23] Speaker 2: ideologies that are infectious to young minds who then it's
[44:27] Speaker 2: almost like it's so difficult to shake.
[44:29] Speaker 3: Sorry.
[44:29] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Matt. Really great point. Totally fine.
[44:31] Speaker 3: But then she, on her own personal journey through, you know,
[44:36] Speaker 3: shaping herself rather than allowing this external force to tell
[44:40] Speaker 3: you what things are, how they are, what lens to
[44:42] Speaker 3: view through. meets this man who's been through that situation
[44:47] Speaker 3: and find love and companionship together and strength. It was
[44:52] Speaker 3: just so beautiful to me. And I think it speaks
[44:55] Speaker 3: in a lot of ways to all of us just
[44:58] Speaker 3: walking around every day and the complexities that we have
[45:01] Speaker 3: within ourselves and how we can connect with each other
[45:05] Speaker 3: despite those differences, no matter what they are.
[45:08] Speaker 4: It's just beautiful.
[45:09] Speaker 3: Just giving you the old salute there.
[45:14] Speaker 4: I completely agree. I completely agree. And I mean, God, imagine,
[45:18] Speaker 4: would you have the strength to... And there's so many,
[45:21] Speaker 4: I think, people who've been through that who never want
[45:27] Speaker 4: to even visit Germany again or speak to a German.
[45:30] Speaker 4: And actually, throughout my reporting for this piece, I did
[45:34] Speaker 4: come to understand that there's also like, yeah, you get
[45:38] Speaker 4: shit for it. Like, why are you in Germany? What
[45:40] Speaker 4: are you doing there? So... it's amazing and a lot,
[45:44] Speaker 4: a lot for us to learn too. I mean, right
[45:46] Speaker 4: now we're, I think cancel culture has gotten better, but
[45:50] Speaker 4: we are very quick to discard people and, you know, yeah,
[45:55] Speaker 4: not give people a second chance.
[45:57] Speaker 3: Hold on guys. We need to take a quick break
[45:59] Speaker 3: here from the sponsors. We will return shortly. Don't worry.
[46:07] Speaker 3: And we're back. Let's jump back in. This is a
[46:10] Speaker 3: quick softball question, Antonia. Um, have you seen films like
[46:16] Speaker 3: Jojo Rabbit and some of the films out there that
[46:20] Speaker 3: attempt to digest some of that, the time period in Germany?
[46:25] Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of Jojo Rabbit?
[46:27] Speaker 4: No. Tell me about it.
[46:30] Speaker 3: It's this director, Taika Waititi, who's, I believe that's how
[46:34] Speaker 3: you say his name.
[46:35] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[46:35] Speaker 2: Mainly does comedy. Yeah.
[46:37] Speaker 3: Well, and this is a comedy.
[46:39] Speaker 2: It is in ways for sure. But it's, It's.
[46:42] Speaker 3: About a young boy who is in the Hitler Youth
[46:45] Speaker 3: Program at the time in Germany when that was a thing,
[46:48] Speaker 3: and his imaginary friend is Hitler himself, played by the director,
[46:52] Speaker 3: Taika Waititi, and it is a silly version, like an
[46:56] Speaker 3: actually silly version of Hitler, who is the version of
[47:01] Speaker 3: that guy.
[47:01] Speaker 2: Very imaginary friend-ish. It's like wacky, yeah.
[47:05] Speaker 3: But in the child's mind, right?
[47:07] Speaker 4: Correct, yes, of course. The way.
[47:08] Speaker 3: This child has been viewing Hitler because of the people
[47:12] Speaker 3: in the bubble around him, right? And then it shows
[47:16] Speaker 3: that character, this child, developing after meeting a young girl
[47:20] Speaker 3: who is hiding from the very people that he's idolizing
[47:23] Speaker 3: and even in his own head. thinking about and, you know,
[47:27] Speaker 3: having a conversation with imaginary Hitler at the dinner table.
[47:30] Speaker 2: Well, he just wants to be tough. He just wants
[47:33] Speaker 2: to be liked and not bullied, you know, at the
[47:35] Speaker 2: end of the day, right?
[47:36] Speaker 3: Well, his father has died and he's, you know, you know,
[47:40] Speaker 3: idolizing his own father, right? Who fought, you know, who,
[47:45] Speaker 3: who fought for the Nazi cause and died in that way.
[47:47] Speaker 3: But really he died attempting to liberate, uh, people from
[47:52] Speaker 3: Nazi control. So it's just, anyway, I don't, that's so
[47:55] Speaker 3: many spoilers from the movie Jojo Rabbit. I'm so sorry.
[47:58] Speaker 3: But it is, that kind of storytelling is so beautiful
[48:01] Speaker 3: because it shows the complexities that you've done so well
[48:04] Speaker 3: at outlining and illustrating and showing, like, shining light on.
[48:09] Speaker 3: And I just wonder if there's anything else that you've
[48:12] Speaker 3: been reading or digesting that is attempting to do that
[48:15] Speaker 3: outside your own work.
[48:17] Speaker 4: I'm really curious to watch that movie now. It takes
[48:20] Speaker 4: so much skill to pull that off.
[48:22] Speaker 2: It's very good.
[48:23] Speaker 4: I can't think of any other examples, actually.
[48:26] Speaker 2: Well, I think your point, Matt, about the best way
[48:28] Speaker 2: in to understanding this kind of mindset truly often is
[48:32] Speaker 2: through fictionalized accounts or through dramatic interpretation where you can
[48:37] Speaker 2: actually get inside the head of a child in that way.
[48:42] Speaker 2: In nonfiction, you do that so well through your narrative structure,
[48:46] Speaker 2: but it's so easy for your cancel culture comment to
[48:49] Speaker 2: just throw out an entire group of people because of
[48:53] Speaker 2: a way they were brought up to believe, to understand,
[48:57] Speaker 2: to see the world. But I think through fiction, we
[49:00] Speaker 2: can sort of see how you can walk that back.
[49:03] Speaker 2: It is possible to change.
[49:06] Speaker 4: I believe it's possible to change.
[49:07] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[49:08] Speaker 3: Well, and it does seem as though just from our
[49:11] Speaker 3: previous conversation that we've been having complete vilification and blocking
[49:17] Speaker 3: out and almost like deleting part of history's not the
[49:20] Speaker 3: way to deal with it. It seems as though critical
[49:22] Speaker 3: thought discussion at truly looking back and ruminating on things enough,
[49:28] Speaker 3: not to where you, you find yourself in a psych ward,
[49:30] Speaker 3: but to where you can actually fully begin to process
[49:34] Speaker 3: some of those things. It just seems so wonderful. It
[49:36] Speaker 3: makes me think about the 2023 movie, that got so
[49:40] Speaker 3: much press here in the U S the zone of
[49:42] Speaker 3: interest that was just thinking about how, what was the
[49:47] Speaker 3: world like right outside the doors of a concentration camp
[49:50] Speaker 3: and then being confronted with some of the realities, albeit fictional,
[49:55] Speaker 3: but based upon some things in history.
[49:58] Speaker 2: Um, I just, I.
[50:00] Speaker 3: Wonder if there is a way for critical thought and
[50:03] Speaker 3: empathy to lead us towards something that is beyond the
[50:07] Speaker 3: some of this extremism that seems to be creeping towards
[50:10] Speaker 3: us again.
[50:11] Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely more empathy and understanding is needed. The way
[50:16] Speaker 4: we villainize people, I mean, the deplorables was obviously, you know,
[50:21] Speaker 4: I think even the Democrats have learned a little bit
[50:23] Speaker 4: from that, but we've seen that in our election right now.
[50:26] Speaker 2: I think.
[50:30] Speaker 4: Yeah, you just have to do a much better job
[50:32] Speaker 4: at explaining that immigration can actually be a positive thing
[50:36] Speaker 4: and it's not taking away, instead of just villainizing the
[50:40] Speaker 4: people that have been taught to believe that. It's just, yeah,
[50:43] Speaker 4: I don't know why we're still doing it. It's kind of....
[50:47] Speaker 3: It almost seems as if.
[50:50] Speaker 3: I don't... This is my own little... It's not even mine.
[50:53] Speaker 3: I don't know how I put this.
[50:55] Speaker 2: It seems as though.
[50:57] Speaker 3: Even the folks that are pushing back so hard against
[51:01] Speaker 3: the beliefs are in a lot of ways aiding and
[51:04] Speaker 3: abetting those beliefs through their actions. And it's so puzzling
[51:10] Speaker 3: because there has to be an understanding of that.
[51:12] Speaker 2: Well, it's almost as though politicians aren't sincere. I don't know.
[51:15] Speaker 2: It's almost as though they're, you know, saying the thing
[51:18] Speaker 2: that they think will rile people up or, you know,
[51:22] Speaker 2: work up their base or get them, get people to,
[51:25] Speaker 2: I mean, you know, when you divide people, it's a
[51:27] Speaker 2: great way of controlling them. And the best way to
[51:29] Speaker 2: divide people is to create an other and say that
[51:32] Speaker 2: they're the ones that are coming for you and coming
[51:34] Speaker 2: for what's yours and, you know, changing your quality of life.
[51:37] Speaker 2: When at the end of the day, it's probably more
[51:39] Speaker 2: the politicians that are doing that.
[51:41] Speaker 4: Yeah. And the more they need to state the obvious,
[51:45] Speaker 4: it is true. You wonder, like, why do you have
[51:47] Speaker 4: to repeat it the whole time? Like, is there nothing
[51:49] Speaker 4: else that's coming to you? It's a little sus. A lot.
[51:54] Speaker 2: A lot of sus. Well, Matt and Tony, I know
[51:58] Speaker 2: that we could probably all go on for ad nauseum
[52:01] Speaker 2: about some of this stuff, but I think this is
[52:02] Speaker 2: a great place, as good a place as any to
[52:05] Speaker 2: wrap up today's episode. Antonia, can you tell the folks
[52:09] Speaker 2: at home where they can find more of your work?
[52:13] Speaker 4: You can find it on Air Mail and a lot
[52:16] Speaker 4: of German publications, Vice News. And if you want to
[52:22] Speaker 4: read more about the case, but again, it's German. I
[52:25] Speaker 4: wrote parts of the book that the representative of the
[52:29] Speaker 4: plaintiff wrote about the trial that that's in German stores.
[52:35] Speaker 4: combine it on Amazon and get it translated by AI
[52:39] Speaker 4: I'm sure that would be a great Sunday read.
[52:42] Speaker 3: Well that's what I wanted to ask you about the
[52:44] Speaker 3: podcast itself is there any English translation or a way
[52:47] Speaker 3: to do it besides plugging it into some sort of
[52:49] Speaker 3: LLM to make it happen.
[52:51] Speaker 4: No I think I would love to do an English
[52:54] Speaker 4: version but no I think as of now unfortunately that's
[52:59] Speaker 4: the only way okay yeah.
[53:03] Speaker 2: Well, I think it's so interesting. Your husband's podcast, Women
[53:06] Speaker 2: of Juarez, was translated into Spanish, if I'm not mistaken.
[53:20] Speaker 2: and then line-edited by your colleagues at Wondery and Campside,
[53:28] Speaker 2: and then translated to German, and then recorded, and then
[53:31] Speaker 2: sound design? Or can you just really quickly, before we wrap,
[53:33] Speaker 2: just tell us a little bit about that? Because I
[53:35] Speaker 2: think as creators of podcasts, we certainly want to know.
[53:38] Speaker 4: That's exactly what happened. And it was a strange process
[53:42] Speaker 4: to write it in English first, because then I felt...
[53:46] Speaker 4: really good about the script, especially with people like Josh
[53:49] Speaker 4: and Ashley-Ann Krigbaum in there, you know, it was like,
[53:52] Speaker 4: and then you have to translate it back to German
[53:54] Speaker 4: and I feel like some of the magic got lost.
[53:56] Speaker 4: But then of course, we had so many amazing people
[54:00] Speaker 4: at Wondery that then, you know, made it good in
[54:03] Speaker 4: German again. But yeah, it was an interesting lengthy process.
[54:08] Speaker 4: And the sound design was by a company in London
[54:13] Speaker 4: and they did an amazing job. Amazing job.
[54:15] Speaker 2: Agreed. And I'm actually going to, as meager as my
[54:19] Speaker 2: German skills are, I was able to kind of get
[54:21] Speaker 2: the gist. I'm going to listen to the whole thing
[54:22] Speaker 2: in German, just to maybe just to help bone up
[54:24] Speaker 2: on my German language skills. So, but again, thank you
[54:27] Speaker 2: so much for joining us and for this wide ranging conversation.
[54:31] Speaker 2: I think we all very much enjoyed it and hope
[54:33] Speaker 2: you all at home did as well. But thank you
[54:35] Speaker 2: so much, Antonia.
[54:36] Speaker 4: I'm so grateful to you guys. It was amazing to
[54:39] Speaker 4: sit here with you. And I'm such a fan of
[54:41] Speaker 4: your both of your work i mean the zodiac killer
[54:44] Speaker 4: was amazing and i cannot wait for your show to
[54:46] Speaker 4: come out where is it coming out.
[54:48] Speaker 2: Oh yes we didn't talk about this on the podcast
[54:50] Speaker 2: i'm i have mentioned it briefly on so they don't
[54:53] Speaker 2: want you to know working on a german-based story about
[54:56] Speaker 2: human trafficking during the cold war in berlin and i'm
[54:59] Speaker 2: hosting that and i've been doing this music and some
[55:01] Speaker 2: of the sound design as well and that is called
[55:03] Speaker 2: final blow and that comes out in early 2027 Hey.
[55:08] Speaker 3: And if you have any thoughts on everything, anything we've
[55:11] Speaker 3: discussed today, there are a lot of different ways to
[55:13] Speaker 3: contact us. The first one is to hit us on
[55:16] Speaker 3: the social media. Many places we're Conspiracy Stuff. Others, we
[55:20] Speaker 3: are Conspiracy Stuff Show. You'll find it if you wish to.
[55:24] Speaker 3: We do have a phone number.
[55:25] Speaker 2: Oh, boy, do we ever, man. I never get to
[55:27] Speaker 2: say it either, and I'm going to say it with gusto. 1-833-STD-WYTK.
[55:33] Speaker 2: Leave us a voicemail. Let us know what you'd like
[55:36] Speaker 2: us to call you in the form of a fun nickname.
[55:38] Speaker 2: And if it's okay to use your voice on the show,
[55:40] Speaker 2: you may well hear yourself on one of our weekly
[55:43] Speaker 2: listener mail episodes. And you might even get a call
[55:47] Speaker 2: back from one of us. Probably Matt.
[55:50] Speaker 3: Hey, and if you want to get a write back
[55:52] Speaker 3: from The Void, a.k.a. the one they refer to as Ben,
[55:57] Speaker 3: best thing to do is to send us an email.
[55:59] Speaker 2: We are conspiracy at iheartradio.com.
[56:19] Speaker 3: Stuff They Don't Want You To Know is a production
[56:21] Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
[56:26] Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.