# At The Money: Divorce Planning for the Ultra Wealthy

An episode of [Masters in Business](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/730188152), 18 Mar 2026, 19 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/4e4cd910-40a1-4619-a5f3-ae2b0012ffff/d1d7fe69-d78d-4a32-872a-b411017292ca/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=5873a3cb-298f-40bc-b71f-ae2b0013000d

Divorce is difficult under the best of circumstances, but when the uber wealthy split up, the complexities and potential missteps are even greater. And it’s not just because there are a few extra zeroes at the end of each number. Patrick Kilbane is General Counsel of the RIA Ullman Wealth Partners, where he leads the Divorce Advisory Group. In addition to his years as a divorce attorney, he is also a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst (CFDA) and Wealth Advisor at the firm. Each week, “At the Money” discusses an important topic in money management. From portfolio construction to taxes and cutting down on fees, join Barry Ritholtz to learn the best ways to put your money to work. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Dear girl, it's too
[0:11] Speaker 1: talk because you know it, don't at it anyway, A
[0:16] Speaker 1: fidget tooth dog.
[0:20] Speaker 2: Half of all marriages and in divorce. That's just as
[0:23] Speaker 2: true for the ultra wealthy and celebrities as it is
[0:27] Speaker 2: for the rest of us. Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Kanye West,
[0:31] Speaker 2: David Geffen. What happens when there are billions to divide?
[0:37] Speaker 2: I'm Barry Ridheltson on today's edition of At the Money.
[0:41] Speaker 2: We're going to discuss the finances of divorce for the
[0:45] Speaker 2: ultra wealthy and full disclosure, I am not a billionaire
[0:50] Speaker 2: and I remain happily married for thirty three years. To
[0:54] Speaker 2: help us unpack all of this and what it means
[0:56] Speaker 2: for your portfolio, let's bring in Patrick Kilbain. He works
[1:00] Speaker 2: at Omen Wealth Partners, where he is a CFP and
[1:03] Speaker 2: general counsel. He leads the firm's divorce advisory group. So, Patrick,
[1:11] Speaker 2: the old joke is true. The wealthier different than us,
[1:15] Speaker 2: they have more money. Well kidding aside, just how different
[1:20] Speaker 2: are billionaire or celebrity divorces from the run of the mill.
[1:24] Speaker 3: Splits Barry First, thanks for having me it's an honor
[1:28] Speaker 3: to be with you, believe it or not. Celebrity divorces
[1:32] Speaker 3: and billionaire divorces are not all that different. They may
[1:35] Speaker 3: have more assets, more zeros in the bank account, more
[1:40] Speaker 3: complicated assets, but what you really got to do is
[1:45] Speaker 3: you got to take a step back and you got
[1:47] Speaker 3: to figure out what you're dealing with. And then, you know,
[1:52] Speaker 3: the biggest difference I think between a celebrity or a
[1:54] Speaker 3: billionaire divorce versus you know, the run of the mill
[1:58] Speaker 3: divorce is the privacy issues that go along with that.
[2:02] Speaker 3: And you know, we can unpack that a little bit more,
[2:04] Speaker 3: but I think that's a big non financial issue that
[2:08] Speaker 3: we're dealing with in those cases.
[2:10] Speaker 2: So you're talking NDAs and things along those lines for
[2:14] Speaker 2: everybody involved.
[2:16] Speaker 3: Well NDAs, and depending on what state you're actually getting
[2:21] Speaker 3: divorced in, there's open government and sunshine laws that can
[2:25] Speaker 3: get access to the divorce files. And one of the
[2:28] Speaker 3: things that I enjoy working on the higher net worth
[2:31] Speaker 3: and higher profile divorces is most of the time both
[2:36] Speaker 3: parties to that case are very cognizant of that issue.
[2:39] Speaker 3: So what we tend to do is we work very
[2:42] Speaker 3: collaboratively and get everything settled and valued and tied up
[2:48] Speaker 3: nice and neatly, and we are thinking away, We are
[2:51] Speaker 3: thinking constantly about how to play keep away from the press.
[2:55] Speaker 2: Really really interesting. We mentioned people with a lot of
[2:59] Speaker 2: zeros their net worth. When you have an ultra high
[3:02] Speaker 2: net worth couple splitting, are the mistakes that they make
[3:07] Speaker 2: more or less the same as what we see in
[3:09] Speaker 2: normal divorces? Or are there things that happen that you
[3:13] Speaker 2: know are really problematic and potentially not reversible.
[3:18] Speaker 3: Well, they are the same. The problem is a one
[3:21] Speaker 3: percent tax mistake in your case or my case is
[3:26] Speaker 3: magnified tremendously in that billionaire divorce case. So the mistakes
[3:33] Speaker 3: are the same, the consequences are tremendously more consequential in
[3:39] Speaker 3: that type of case. And then barry what I found
[3:42] Speaker 3: in these higher net worth cases. Generally, you know a
[3:47] Speaker 3: young couple who starts making and earning and accumulating significant assets,
[3:53] Speaker 3: they start doing what I call a state planning two
[3:56] Speaker 3: point zero or state planning three point zero, Because as
[3:59] Speaker 3: I tell everybody, there's two types of money problems, too
[4:02] Speaker 3: much and not enough. And these people have the too
[4:05] Speaker 3: much problem. So they have very complicated estate plans that
[4:09] Speaker 3: are designed to not be busted apart. So then you
[4:13] Speaker 3: start saying, Okay, you know this is a couple that's
[4:16] Speaker 3: been married thirty five forty years. They have slacks and
[4:21] Speaker 3: grats and cuberts and these complicated state vehicles. Well, okay,
[4:27] Speaker 3: how do we separate them? What are the tax consequences
[4:31] Speaker 3: as a result of separating or blown apart that estate plan?
[4:36] Speaker 3: And do we really want to do that?
[4:39] Speaker 2: Really really interesting. I was out with a couple of
[4:42] Speaker 2: guys right before the holidays. One of them was divorced,
[4:47] Speaker 2: and another person at the table mused, gee, I wish
[4:51] Speaker 2: I could afford to get divorced. So I guess that's
[4:54] Speaker 2: the too little money as opposed to too much money.
[4:57] Speaker 2: But let's talk about the too much money. A lot
[5:01] Speaker 2: of assets are not liquid. The headline value looks like
[5:06] Speaker 2: it's really big. How do you figure out the difference
[5:11] Speaker 2: between what something appears the liquidity factors? And then of
[5:15] Speaker 2: course you wind up either with a concentrated position or
[5:19] Speaker 2: a tax headache if there's a liquidity event in sale,
[5:22] Speaker 2: for the for the divorce. How do you navigate those areas?
[5:27] Speaker 3: Excellent question, excellent points. So let's let's think back to
[5:32] Speaker 3: the financial crisis two thousand and nine, twenty ten, the
[5:35] Speaker 3: late Elayne Win and Steve Win. We're getting a divorce,
[5:40] Speaker 3: and we think of Steve and Alaine Win, and we
[5:42] Speaker 3: think about people that have tons of cash, cash flows
[5:45] Speaker 3: and a problem. Well, the Wins had to liquid eate
[5:49] Speaker 3: shares of win resorts to you know, free up money
[5:52] Speaker 3: for their divorce case. So if Steve and Alaine Win
[5:55] Speaker 3: have to sell assets from a liquidity standpoint in a
[5:59] Speaker 3: divorce case, you can imagine that other business owners may
[6:03] Speaker 3: have to do the same thing. And then, like you said,
[6:07] Speaker 3: maybe the couples are going through a business sale or
[6:11] Speaker 3: there's some other liquidity events. So again, as I stated earlier,
[6:15] Speaker 3: the great thing about these cases is generally people are
[6:19] Speaker 3: motivated together to reduce tax liabilities and work together to
[6:24] Speaker 3: maximize the size of the pie. And I think again
[6:27] Speaker 3: in the billionaire celebrity divorce case, there's more motivation from
[6:31] Speaker 3: both sides to do that.
[6:34] Speaker 2: What do you do with things that are kind of
[6:36] Speaker 2: hard to put a dollar number on, carried interest RSUs,
[6:41] Speaker 2: restricted stock, even deferred comper options. How do you navigate that?
[6:49] Speaker 3: Sure, Well, there are all sorts of other professionals that
[6:52] Speaker 3: are experts and in placing of value on that. And
[6:56] Speaker 3: then you've got to step back and say, okay, what
[6:58] Speaker 3: are my goals and what are my strength spouse's goals.
[7:01] Speaker 3: So all of the contingent assets that you just rattled off,
[7:07] Speaker 3: they have some sort of expectation that you're still going
[7:11] Speaker 3: to have to be linked together for some period of
[7:14] Speaker 3: time in order to realize those assets. And you know,
[7:18] Speaker 3: maybe the person who's employed and is compensated in those
[7:23] Speaker 3: you know, alternative ways, they may not want to, you know,
[7:27] Speaker 3: have their you know, former spouse contacting their human resources
[7:31] Speaker 3: department or their executive compensation parts. So then the question
[7:35] Speaker 3: becomes do we have enough liquidity to buy that person out?
[7:39] Speaker 3: And you know, what sort of risk premium are we
[7:42] Speaker 3: assigning on kerry that may actually not materialize? And you know,
[7:47] Speaker 3: are these assets are they deferred, are they qualified? Are
[7:51] Speaker 3: they non qualified? What sort of growth rate do we
[7:54] Speaker 3: model when we're coming up? You know, do we think
[7:56] Speaker 3: that growth rate is fair? If we don't, then we
[8:00] Speaker 3: just say, okay, fine, I'm gonna roll the dice and
[8:02] Speaker 3: I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna ride along and see
[8:05] Speaker 3: what happens with the carry and whether it materializes or not,
[8:08] Speaker 3: And but I think history is a good place to
[8:11] Speaker 3: look to too. If you know we've been airried for
[8:13] Speaker 3: a significant amount of time, how have previous iterations of
[8:17] Speaker 3: the funds done? And how comfortable do I feel about,
[8:21] Speaker 3: you know, Carrie actually being there.
[8:25] Speaker 2: You mentioned outside experts. How do you, as the advisor
[8:30] Speaker 2: coordinate with outside lawyers and accountants and the state attorneys.
[8:35] Speaker 2: You're sort of trying to make sure the client isn't
[8:38] Speaker 2: stuck as a project manager as they're undergoing this emotional,
[8:43] Speaker 2: very emotional potentially I'm gonna say that again, they're undergoing
[8:49] Speaker 2: a very emotional experience.
[8:52] Speaker 3: Barry, It's not fair for the client to be the
[8:54] Speaker 3: project manager. They're the ones who are leaning on professional
[8:57] Speaker 3: advice and having litigated for nearly a decade, I generally
[9:03] Speaker 3: know all of the best to breed divorce lawyers in
[9:07] Speaker 3: the area, and I'll lean on law school classmates to
[9:10] Speaker 3: find the best to breed divorce lawyers all over the country.
[9:14] Speaker 3: And the divorce lawyer is going to be the quarterback.
[9:16] Speaker 3: I think it's very important to understand where the divorce
[9:20] Speaker 3: is actually taking place, so you can have a great
[9:22] Speaker 3: expert witness. But if that expert witness is not known
[9:25] Speaker 3: to the judge, or they're just simply not able to
[9:28] Speaker 3: communicate their work product and make the court understand what's
[9:32] Speaker 3: going on, then they're not a very good expert. So
[9:35] Speaker 3: I think you really have to know where you're at,
[9:39] Speaker 3: know the experts that have significant experience doing this type
[9:43] Speaker 3: of work. And then you know, if that expert is
[9:47] Speaker 3: well known to the court and to the opposing parties
[9:50] Speaker 3: and they do sort of a B plus job, then
[9:53] Speaker 3: maybe we need to sort of backstop them with that
[9:56] Speaker 3: national expert that is really really precise and really refined
[10:01] Speaker 3: that can help out so that situation. And you know, Barry,
[10:06] Speaker 3: I said this to a client the other day, I'm
[10:08] Speaker 3: sort of the offensive coordinator. I know enough to be dangerous,
[10:12] Speaker 3: I know, but I'm not in the business of giving
[10:15] Speaker 3: out legal advice. If I wanted to do that, I
[10:17] Speaker 3: would still be an advocate. But we work together. I
[10:21] Speaker 3: make suggestions. The head coach, the lawyer has got to
[10:24] Speaker 3: be the one who ultimately implements the plan.
[10:28] Speaker 2: So I mentioned in our introduction Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates,
[10:32] Speaker 2: it raises the question when you have highly appreciated founder's
[10:37] Speaker 2: stock at a very low cost basis and then all
[10:41] Speaker 2: of the capital gains that come with getting liquid with that.
[10:45] Speaker 2: When I look at folks like Larry Allison, O Bezos
[10:48] Speaker 2: or Gates, they've let it run for so long. What
[10:53] Speaker 2: we saw with Gates is he literally there was an
[10:56] Speaker 2: eight billion dollar transfer of Mike Off stock before the
[11:01] Speaker 2: selloff to Melinda Gates Foundation. What are best practices with
[11:07] Speaker 2: dealing things like founder stock at a really low cost basis?
[11:12] Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you hit on one of the strategies
[11:15] Speaker 3: right away. If philanthropy or charitable giving is part of
[11:20] Speaker 3: the problem, then we bring in an expert and talking
[11:23] Speaker 3: about if a charitable foundation isn't set up, what's the
[11:27] Speaker 3: best way to maximize gift to charity, and you hit
[11:30] Speaker 3: the nail on the head. Donating appreciated stock to the charity,
[11:35] Speaker 3: to a charitable foundation, to a donor advice fund is
[11:39] Speaker 3: certainly a way to do that because, as you know,
[11:41] Speaker 3: you get the market value for the contribution of the stock,
[11:47] Speaker 3: you don't have to worry about the capital gains tax,
[11:49] Speaker 3: neither does the charity. Everybody wins.
[11:52] Speaker 2: We saw that with Bezos's wife also right it was
[11:56] Speaker 2: a big chunk of Amazon stock that went into her philanthropy,
[12:02] Speaker 2: what do you do when it's not a public company.
[12:05] Speaker 2: What do you have do when you have a highly
[12:07] Speaker 2: valued private company? Things like tangible book value in goodwill,
[12:13] Speaker 2: they're so squishy. How do you put a dollar value
[12:16] Speaker 2: on that?
[12:17] Speaker 3: Sure will oftentimes bring in expert witnesses at valuing those
[12:22] Speaker 3: privately held companies. And as you and I talked before
[12:26] Speaker 3: the taping, Barry, you know, there's two components to the
[12:31] Speaker 3: value of a business. There's the tangible assets and the goodwill. Well,
[12:35] Speaker 3: in the context of a divorce case, we have to
[12:38] Speaker 3: drill down into the good will and we have to say,
[12:40] Speaker 3: all right, what component of the goodwill is the enterprise goodwill?
[12:44] Speaker 3: And then what component of the goodwill is attributable to
[12:48] Speaker 3: the merital litigant. So let me give you an example.
[12:51] Speaker 3: Let's say there's Barry Ridtholts Insurance agency, or there's State
[12:55] Speaker 3: Farm Insurance where Barry Ritholtz is the registered agent. So
[13:00] Speaker 3: if I live in you know, some proximity to the
[13:03] Speaker 3: State Farm office where Barry's the register agent, maybe I'm
[13:07] Speaker 3: going there because I know Barry, but more likely than not,
[13:11] Speaker 3: I'm going there because of the brand State Farm. So
[13:13] Speaker 3: there's more enterprise goodwill there. But if I'm going to
[13:16] Speaker 3: the Ritholtz Property and Casualty Insurance up the street, it's
[13:20] Speaker 3: probably because I rode the train into the city with Barry.
[13:24] Speaker 3: Maybe Barry sponsored the Little League baseball team. Barry was
[13:29] Speaker 3: referred to me by somebody else that you helped, you know,
[13:33] Speaker 3: in who needed those products. So those are the issues
[13:38] Speaker 3: that we have to get. And you know on my team,
[13:41] Speaker 3: you know, you and I and your listeners know how
[13:44] Speaker 3: significant small businesses are to the American economy. Well in
[13:48] Speaker 3: the higher networth cases, a lot of these families have
[13:51] Speaker 3: small businesses. It's the biggest asset in the divorce case.
[13:54] Speaker 3: So I found my business partner, Caitlin. She was working
[13:59] Speaker 3: at a business brokerage firm, and I thought, man, this
[14:03] Speaker 3: woman has great credentials, great presence, she has that business
[14:06] Speaker 3: valuation expertise. So on my team, I have somebody who
[14:09] Speaker 3: came from the valuation world to help the lawyers and
[14:12] Speaker 3: our clients spot those business valuation issues because they are
[14:17] Speaker 3: so essential to the divorce case.
[14:20] Speaker 2: Since we're talking about ultra high net worth potential divorces,
[14:25] Speaker 2: one of the things I was thinking about was liability protection.
[14:28] Speaker 2: A lot of these families have umbrella policies. They have
[14:32] Speaker 2: very specific lawsuits and potential liability. They're trying to shield
[14:36] Speaker 2: themselves run How do you manage that throughout a divorce process.
[14:41] Speaker 3: I mean, that's probably the most important question that you've
[14:44] Speaker 3: asked me. We can divide, we can design the best portfolio,
[14:49] Speaker 3: have a great asset allocation, have strategy to you know,
[14:54] Speaker 3: redeem company stock and dilute concentrated positions. But if you
[14:59] Speaker 3: don't have the right protection in place, if you don't
[15:02] Speaker 3: have an umbrella policy, if you don't have an umbrella policy,
[15:05] Speaker 3: that is taking into consideration uninsured motorists. And I'm going
[15:10] Speaker 3: to even back up before we even get to insurance
[15:12] Speaker 3: and look at how assets are titled. So, Barry, I
[15:15] Speaker 3: live in Florida, and Florida is one of the jurisdictions
[15:17] Speaker 3: in the country where you can hold property as tenants
[15:21] Speaker 3: in the entireties. And you know, most of the other
[15:23] Speaker 3: jurisdictions you can hold property as joint tenants with right
[15:28] Speaker 3: of survivorship. And I don't want to make this a
[15:30] Speaker 3: law class you're a lawyer, but tenants by the entirety
[15:33] Speaker 3: means that you and your spouse own an undivided interest
[15:39] Speaker 3: in that asset. Joint tennants with right of survivorship means
[15:42] Speaker 3: that Barry and his wife own each own fifty percent.
[15:46] Speaker 3: So if you're a tort feezer and you don't have
[15:50] Speaker 3: an umbrella policy, I can go after fifty percent of
[15:53] Speaker 3: your brokerage account. But if you hold it as tenants
[15:56] Speaker 3: in the entirety, then you and your wife have to
[15:59] Speaker 3: be the fees aer for me to you know, try
[16:02] Speaker 3: to go after those assets. What about titling cars? I mean,
[16:06] Speaker 3: how many advisors are looking at how their clients title
[16:09] Speaker 3: their car. You know, I'm dealing with a case right
[16:12] Speaker 3: now where somebody that I know was killed by a
[16:14] Speaker 3: sixteen year old motorist. Well, the insurance companies are smart.
[16:18] Speaker 3: They don't want to just title the car in the
[16:20] Speaker 3: kid's name, right, They'll charge higher premium, you know, to
[16:24] Speaker 3: make sure that either mom and or dad is also
[16:27] Speaker 3: on the title, so you know, they can have mom
[16:30] Speaker 3: and Dad's assets be you know, used to satisfy a judgment. So,
[16:34] Speaker 3: I mean, these are all the things that I try
[16:36] Speaker 3: to help people look at and say, hey, look, just
[16:39] Speaker 3: by the way you title your assets, you can shield
[16:42] Speaker 3: yourself from a potential liability.
[16:45] Speaker 2: Final question, what are your thoughts on finding hidden assets
[16:50] Speaker 2: and not just Swiss bank accounts, but other ownership of companies,
[16:56] Speaker 2: of real estate, of what have you that perhaps one
[16:59] Speaker 2: of the spouses is not fully aware of.
[17:02] Speaker 3: Right. That's why tax returns and corporate tax returns and
[17:07] Speaker 3: following the money and watching where it goes is so significant.
[17:12] Speaker 3: You know, most of the time you know one spouse
[17:15] Speaker 3: trusts the other spouse or has no dealings whatsoever with
[17:20] Speaker 3: you know, what's going on at work and the business
[17:22] Speaker 3: accounts and so on and so forth. So it's really
[17:24] Speaker 3: important you talked about big money mistakes before you agree
[17:28] Speaker 3: to a settlement. Get a CPA to help you sit
[17:31] Speaker 3: down and take a look at the tax returns and
[17:35] Speaker 3: see how the money's flowing. I mean, generally there are
[17:38] Speaker 3: things on there that raise significant red flags which may
[17:43] Speaker 3: make you want to pause and say, okay, I need
[17:45] Speaker 3: to take a look at this. I need to look
[17:46] Speaker 3: at the corporate bank accounts. How are these retained earnings
[17:50] Speaker 3: consistent with other you know, businesses in the same industry.
[17:54] Speaker 3: Is just too much? Did the salary significantly change? Did
[18:00] Speaker 3: distributions significantly change? How have the historical expenses changed? You know,
[18:05] Speaker 3: right around the time that the divorce was starting to
[18:08] Speaker 3: bubble to the surface.
[18:09] Speaker 2: So to wrap up, billionaire divorces aren't all that different
[18:14] Speaker 2: from run of the mill divorces. Sure, there are a
[18:16] Speaker 2: couple of more zeros at the end of the asset
[18:18] Speaker 2: list and some complications, but generally speaking, the risks, the
[18:24] Speaker 2: boxes you want to check, and the other issues that
[18:26] Speaker 2: you're going to run through aren't all that different from
[18:29] Speaker 2: traditional divorces. I'm Barry Redults. You're listening to Bloomberg's at
[18:34] Speaker 2: the Money.
[18:38] Speaker 1: You know, don't you

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