# At The Money: The Right Way to Spend Your Money in Retirement

An episode of [Masters in Business](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/730188152), 16 Jul 2025, 20 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/4e4cd910-40a1-4619-a5f3-ae2b0012ffff/dd10b88f-8e9c-4066-a859-b31c00f5f3ba/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=5873a3cb-298f-40bc-b71f-ae2b0013000d

One of the biggest challenges of retirement is actually spending your money! After decades of working, saving, and investing, pivoting to spending down your accumulated wealth can be surprisingly difficult. Christine Benz is the Director of Personal Finance and Retirement Planning at Morningstar. She's published numerous books on retirement, most recently, “How to Retire: 20 Lessons for a Happy, Successful and Wealthy Retirement.” Each week, “At the Money” discusses an important topic in money management. From portfolio construction to taxes and cutting down on fees, join Barry Ritholtz to learn the best ways to put your money to work. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
[0:16] Speaker 2: Speak to any financial advisor and they'll tell you one
[0:20] Speaker 2: of the biggest challenges they have professionally is getting clients
[0:24] Speaker 2: to actually spend their money. After decades of working and
[0:29] Speaker 2: saving and investing, making the turn to spending money can
[0:33] Speaker 2: be a challenge. I'm Barry Ritolts, and on today's edition
[0:37] Speaker 2: of At the Money, we're going to discuss spending your
[0:41] Speaker 2: mollah in retirement. To help us unpack all of this
[0:44] Speaker 2: and what it means to your retirement, let's bring in
[0:47] Speaker 2: Christine Benz. She is the director of Personal Finance and
[0:51] Speaker 2: retirement Planning at morning Star. She's published numerous books on money,
[0:56] Speaker 2: investing and retirement, most recently How to Retire Twenty Lessons
[1:02] Speaker 2: for a Happy, successful, and Wealthy Retirement. So let's start
[1:07] Speaker 2: with the basic problem. Getting those type A personalities who
[1:11] Speaker 2: are used to working and saving and working and investing
[1:16] Speaker 2: to kind of pivot to working and spending is a
[1:21] Speaker 2: big challenge. How big of an issue is this amongst
[1:25] Speaker 2: people who are looking at retirement.
[1:28] Speaker 3: It's a very big issue, and it's kind of a
[1:31] Speaker 3: difficult topic to talk about because we have a lot
[1:34] Speaker 3: of people in our society who are quite undersaved relative
[1:38] Speaker 3: to what they will need for retirement, they'll be exclusively
[1:41] Speaker 3: dependent on social Security. But there is also a segment
[1:46] Speaker 3: of our population who struggles with spending appropriately. I can't
[1:51] Speaker 3: tell you, Barry, how many times I've been out speaking
[1:53] Speaker 3: to a group of older adults and I'll have someone
[1:56] Speaker 3: come up at the end of one of my sessions.
[1:59] Speaker 4: Clearly his or her eighties.
[2:01] Speaker 3: Usually his based on the composition of the audiences I
[2:04] Speaker 3: usually speak with, and he'll proudly say, I only spend
[2:09] Speaker 3: two percent of my portfolio per year, whatever the value is,
[2:14] Speaker 3: that's what I spend. And I kind of think to myself, well, gosh,
[2:18] Speaker 3: I hope that that delivers you a good quality of life.
[2:22] Speaker 3: And I also think to myself, you're probably pretty significantly
[2:26] Speaker 3: short changing yourself if you're just spending at that level.
[2:30] Speaker 3: And as you said, Barry, I hear this from financial
[2:33] Speaker 3: advisors as well, that they struggle getting their clients to
[2:36] Speaker 3: spend appropriately.
[2:38] Speaker 2: I heard a funny line from a pair of older
[2:43] Speaker 2: clients who were getting on a plane and they were
[2:47] Speaker 2: sitting in first class and they bump into friends they
[2:50] Speaker 2: know who are sitting in coach, and the conversation was
[2:54] Speaker 2: they just could imagine each other's conversation. Look at them
[3:00] Speaker 2: in the front of the plane spending their kids' inheritance,
[3:03] Speaker 2: and then the one sitting in the front of the
[3:05] Speaker 2: plane saying, can you imagine their flying coach so their
[3:08] Speaker 2: kids can fly first first class. It's kind of funny,
[3:11] Speaker 2: But ultimately, isn't this a psychological struggle about not just
[3:17] Speaker 2: outliving your own money. Assuming we're talking about people who
[3:22] Speaker 2: aren't going to outlive their own money, there's still this
[3:25] Speaker 2: enormous hesitancy to spend their kids inheritance or to spend
[3:30] Speaker 2: money when they've spent their whole lives. As Savers tell us.
[3:33] Speaker 3: About that exactly, it's a sense of identity. I think
[3:37] Speaker 3: that one builds as a saver and an investor that
[3:41] Speaker 3: you are someone who defers gratification. You set money aside
[3:45] Speaker 3: each month, and the further you go along in that journey,
[3:50] Speaker 3: probably the more successful you are, you get to see
[3:53] Speaker 3: the incredible power of compounding. I think there is a
[3:57] Speaker 3: common tendency to kind of anchor on the portfolio Leo's
[4:00] Speaker 3: high water mark, to think, well, if it's here, I
[4:03] Speaker 3: never want to see it go lower. It just does
[4:06] Speaker 3: not feel good to see the balance go down after
[4:09] Speaker 3: a lifetime of seeing it generally escalate. So there's a
[4:13] Speaker 3: lot going on psychologically, and kind of an elephant in
[4:16] Speaker 3: the room in this respect is long term care. That
[4:22] Speaker 3: people who have not purchased long term care insurance and
[4:26] Speaker 3: may have really good reasons to not have done so,
[4:29] Speaker 3: still have this risk of like, oh, may I have
[4:32] Speaker 3: this balloon payment at the end of my life where
[4:36] Speaker 3: you know, I could get stuck with years and years
[4:38] Speaker 3: of expensive care. So I think that that is a
[4:41] Speaker 3: real risk factor that is in the mix as well.
[4:45] Speaker 2: Really really interesting. So since we're talking about long term care,
[4:50] Speaker 2: let's talk about generally putting together a personalized plan, thinking
[4:54] Speaker 2: about needs and goals, lifestyle considerations. What should someone who
[5:00] Speaker 2: wants to spend more of their money do in order
[5:03] Speaker 2: to feel comfortable that they can afford to spend the
[5:06] Speaker 2: little cash?
[5:07] Speaker 3: Well, I would say, either get a financial advisor to
[5:10] Speaker 3: help you with this, where they're effectively disbursing a portion
[5:15] Speaker 3: of your portfolio to you per year if you're doing
[5:18] Speaker 3: it on your own, get familiar with the research on
[5:21] Speaker 3: safe spending rates. A lot of the research that's been
[5:25] Speaker 3: done by our team and Others points to the value
[5:28] Speaker 3: of being flexible with your portfolio withdrawals, where you are
[5:32] Speaker 3: taking more when your balance is up when the markets
[5:35] Speaker 3: are up, and you're taking a little bit less when
[5:38] Speaker 3: things are down. I think if people understand the data
[5:43] Speaker 3: that we have on retirement spending, one thing that we
[5:46] Speaker 3: know is that people tend to spend less as they age.
[5:51] Speaker 3: So your early years of retirement should be the higher
[5:55] Speaker 3: spending years of your retirement because that's usually when people's
[5:58] Speaker 3: health is good. They may have pent up demand to
[6:05] Speaker 3: do travel, they may be launching adult children, a lot
[6:08] Speaker 3: of things going on at that life stage.
[6:10] Speaker 4: You should give yourself permission to spend.
[6:13] Speaker 3: A little bit more early in retirement with the knowledge
[6:16] Speaker 3: that even when we look at spending trajectories among very
[6:20] Speaker 3: wealthy households, people spend less as they age. So if
[6:24] Speaker 3: you're okay with that trade off, with the idea that
[6:26] Speaker 3: you probably will spend less, you should give yourself a
[6:29] Speaker 3: little bit more license to spend earlier on.
[6:32] Speaker 2: So let's break those spending desires down. You mentioned travel,
[6:38] Speaker 2: like it's easy to travel in your sixties and seventies
[6:40] Speaker 2: than it is in your eighties and nineties. Hobbies legacy
[6:47] Speaker 2: philanthropy or charitable goals, to say nothing of future healthcare needs.
[6:53] Speaker 2: How should people organize their thoughts and planning for future spending.
[7:00] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's helpful to get very granular about
[7:04] Speaker 3: the budgeting. And I don't mean you know that you're
[7:07] Speaker 3: nickel and diming yourself and looking at every line item.
[7:10] Speaker 3: But if you have, say a big family trip planned
[7:14] Speaker 3: in year two of your retirement, spend some time figuring
[7:17] Speaker 3: out what the implications will be for your plan for
[7:21] Speaker 3: your spending in that year. Know that those big outlays
[7:24] Speaker 3: won't occur every year, but actually spend some time mapping
[7:28] Speaker 3: them out.
[7:29] Speaker 4: And the nice.
[7:30] Speaker 3: Thing about that is that, in addition to it helping
[7:32] Speaker 3: your spending plan, it will also help you get these
[7:35] Speaker 3: plans off the ground, rather than having them as some
[7:39] Speaker 3: you know, sort of vague notion of things that you
[7:41] Speaker 3: want to do. You mentioned lifetime giving, barry to family
[7:46] Speaker 3: members and charity. I have come to be a huge
[7:49] Speaker 3: evangelist for this because when we look at the data
[7:52] Speaker 3: on when people inherit money from their parents, they're usually
[7:57] Speaker 3: in their fifties or in their sixties. They're findingential fortunes
[8:00] Speaker 3: are pretty well set by that life stage, Whereas if
[8:04] Speaker 3: you have young people in your life, whether children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews,
[8:09] Speaker 3: you can make a big impact for them in the twenties,
[8:12] Speaker 3: thirties forties with hometown payments or paying off student loans,
[8:18] Speaker 3: and these don't need to be big ticket gifts. Smaller
[8:22] Speaker 3: gifts can make a big impact. I often talk about
[8:24] Speaker 3: how my mom and dad gave my husband and me
[8:27] Speaker 3: a little bit of padding for our home down payment
[8:30] Speaker 3: on our first home, and that helped us get into
[8:33] Speaker 3: a home that we were able to stay in for
[8:34] Speaker 3: twelve years. We lived exactly in the community where we
[8:38] Speaker 3: wanted to live. So having that discussion with your loved
[8:42] Speaker 3: ones about the gifts that might help them, I think,
[8:45] Speaker 3: is something that can add a lot of richness to
[8:49] Speaker 3: someone's retirement.
[8:50] Speaker 2: I recall reading your piece what was it in the
[8:52] Speaker 2: fall last year or maybe around the holidays? Intervevos transfers
[8:58] Speaker 2: is the technical time while you're alive. This seems to
[9:03] Speaker 2: be increasingly modern development. Like I think back twenty five
[9:09] Speaker 2: thirty five years, you didn't hear that much about it,
[9:12] Speaker 2: at least outside of the top one or five percent.
[9:17] Speaker 2: Now it's fairly common for the X or boomer generation
[9:23] Speaker 2: to help with a down payment or college. As you mentioned,
[9:26] Speaker 2: tell us about what you're seeing out in the world.
[9:29] Speaker 2: How significant has this become? Is this something around the
[9:34] Speaker 2: fringes or are we seeing a lot more intervivos transfers
[9:38] Speaker 2: today than say, twenty thirty forty years ago.
[9:41] Speaker 3: I don't have any data on it, Barry, but my
[9:44] Speaker 3: sense is that the movement to toward lifetime giving is
[9:48] Speaker 3: picking up steam, and not just for very wealthy people.
[9:52] Speaker 3: I think sometimes people are put off by the term
[9:55] Speaker 3: lifetime giving. It sounds very highbro, but it doesn't have
[9:59] Speaker 3: to be. It can be assistance with some of those
[10:01] Speaker 3: smaller life achievements that young people might might want to
[10:07] Speaker 3: tick off their lists. So I would urge planners and
[10:11] Speaker 3: individuals pursuing their own retirement plans to think about building
[10:15] Speaker 3: in some of those lifetime giving aspirations. And also, you know,
[10:20] Speaker 3: there are really nice tax planning mechanisms that people can
[10:24] Speaker 3: use to help them achieve achieve those things as well.
[10:28] Speaker 3: The donor advised fund for charitable gifts especially.
[10:32] Speaker 2: And why shouldn't you see family members, friends, whoever enjoy
[10:37] Speaker 2: the benefits of your largest while you're still around it
[10:41] Speaker 2: shouldn't be just something you think about when you're at
[10:43] Speaker 2: you'r a state attorney and you're signing a document and
[10:46] Speaker 2: that's the last you see of it. Why not get
[10:49] Speaker 2: to enjoy your kids or nephews or whoever in a
[10:54] Speaker 2: new house that you help them get there exactly.
[10:57] Speaker 3: That is the huge side benefit of contemplating lifetime giving.
[11:02] Speaker 2: So let's talk about a little more formal type of giving.
[11:06] Speaker 2: You mentioned donor advised funds. Philanthropy when it comes to
[11:11] Speaker 2: both financial and estate planning. I'm going to say that again,
[11:16] Speaker 2: philanthropy is a big part of both retirement and estate planning.
[11:21] Speaker 2: Talk a little bit about the idea behind how families
[11:24] Speaker 2: should be thinking about managing philanthropy or donating to causes
[11:30] Speaker 2: that are near and dear to their heart.
[11:33] Speaker 3: Yeah, get some advice on the tax aspect of this.
[11:36] Speaker 3: The donor advised fund is a really nice mechanism for
[11:40] Speaker 3: people of varying means, and it's especially appropriate for people
[11:43] Speaker 3: who have concentrated positions in their portfolios. Off an employer
[11:49] Speaker 3: stock where you can kind of take a risk out
[11:51] Speaker 3: of the portfolio and donate the say employer stock to
[11:57] Speaker 3: the donor advised fund and get a tax deduction on
[12:03] Speaker 3: that contribution, and you can also remove the capital gains
[12:10] Speaker 3: tax associated with that big gain in the position at
[12:13] Speaker 3: the same time. And then from there on, once you've
[12:17] Speaker 3: established the donor advice funds, you can make those charitable
[12:21] Speaker 3: gifts on an ongoing basis. So that's one strategy that
[12:24] Speaker 3: I would say would be kind of a first line
[12:27] Speaker 3: to consider for people of all levels of wealth. And
[12:31] Speaker 3: then for people who are moving up and getting into retirement,
[12:36] Speaker 3: using the charitable Qualified Charitable distribution from IRAS can be
[12:42] Speaker 3: a really nice strategy as well, where you are giving
[12:46] Speaker 3: a portion of your IRA once you pass age seventy
[12:50] Speaker 3: and a half to charity. And we've seen a little
[12:53] Speaker 3: inflation adjustment in the amount that you can give, but
[12:56] Speaker 3: it's now over one hundred thousand dollars per year. It's
[13:00] Speaker 3: a way to reduce the tax burden associated.
[13:03] Speaker 4: With that I RaSE.
[13:05] Speaker 3: So that's another strategy to consider. I just wish it
[13:08] Speaker 3: were available to people of all ages where you could
[13:12] Speaker 3: potentially lighten up your I RAY a little bit and
[13:15] Speaker 3: get a tax break and do some charitable giving.
[13:18] Speaker 2: So we're talking about spending in retirement, but we have
[13:22] Speaker 2: yet to talk about drawing down portfolios. Bill Sharp, Nobel
[13:28] Speaker 2: laureate and a key person when it comes to both
[13:32] Speaker 2: modern portfolio theory and understanding asset allocation, has called this
[13:38] Speaker 2: the thornious problem in all of finance. Why is figuring
[13:43] Speaker 2: out how much to draw down your portfolios, whether just
[13:47] Speaker 2: to live on it or for special spending. Why is
[13:51] Speaker 2: that such a challenging set of numbers?
[13:55] Speaker 3: The key issue is that you're dealing with a bunch
[13:57] Speaker 3: of wild cards. So do you have an uncert in
[14:00] Speaker 3: time horizon. You don't know how long you'll live, and
[14:02] Speaker 3: you may have a little bit of a window into
[14:04] Speaker 3: that as you age, but most of us do not
[14:06] Speaker 3: have that crystal ball. And then we don't know how
[14:08] Speaker 3: the markets will perform over our retirement time horizon. And
[14:13] Speaker 3: then this recent inflation shock really illustrated the wild card
[14:17] Speaker 3: that inflation is for retirement plans. So you don't know
[14:21] Speaker 3: how inflation will play out over your horizon. So you
[14:26] Speaker 3: don't know how much you'll have to elevate your spending
[14:30] Speaker 3: just to kind of keep your head above water. So
[14:32] Speaker 3: all of those things are super tricky to get to
[14:35] Speaker 3: get your arms around. And the key conclusion for a
[14:39] Speaker 3: lot of people is like, well, I'd rather be safe
[14:41] Speaker 3: than sorry. I'd rather be a little bit conservative if
[14:45] Speaker 3: it means a very high likelihood that.
[14:47] Speaker 4: I won't run out.
[14:49] Speaker 3: But I do think that kind of one and done
[14:51] Speaker 3: withdrawal rate. The four percent style guideline is, you know,
[14:56] Speaker 3: maybe a good proxy if you're fifty in trying to
[14:58] Speaker 3: figure out if you have enough. But it's not a
[15:01] Speaker 3: retirement spending plan because people don't spend that way. They
[15:04] Speaker 3: don't just spend the same amount in a straight line
[15:07] Speaker 3: adjusted for inflation throughout retirement.
[15:09] Speaker 2: It's lumpier, so you have a sequence of return problem
[15:13] Speaker 2: on the asset side, and then you have a front
[15:17] Speaker 2: loaded spend on the consumption side. That sounds like that
[15:21] Speaker 2: could be potentially challenging with just a straight up four.
[15:25] Speaker 3: Percent, definitely, and then long term care, which we talked
[15:28] Speaker 3: about earlier, that's another wild card in the mix.
[15:32] Speaker 2: So how often should retirees be reviewing their holdings? How
[15:37] Speaker 2: often should they be making changes to their budgets? Is
[15:40] Speaker 2: this a set and forget or do you need to
[15:43] Speaker 2: regularly be updating this.
[15:46] Speaker 3: I like the idea of doing it once a year
[15:48] Speaker 3: as kind of a holistic strategy where you're checking up
[15:51] Speaker 3: on your withdrawal rate. You're looking at what your portfolio
[15:54] Speaker 3: could support in the year ahead, and you're doing a
[15:58] Speaker 3: little bit of portfolio maintenance. So I'm a big believer
[16:01] Speaker 3: in the bucket approach to retirement income. If you've spent
[16:04] Speaker 3: from that cash bucket in the previous year, you're also
[16:08] Speaker 3: looking at your portfolio and deciding, well, where is the
[16:12] Speaker 3: same place for me to pull from if I need
[16:15] Speaker 3: to top up that cash bucket to provide me with
[16:18] Speaker 3: spending money in the year ahead. And you're also doing
[16:20] Speaker 3: a little bit of tax planning as well, so if
[16:23] Speaker 3: you're subject to required minimum distributions, for example, you're figuring
[16:27] Speaker 3: out where to where to go for them. So I
[16:30] Speaker 3: think a good, one stop, holistic portfolio review is fine
[16:36] Speaker 3: for most retirees.
[16:38] Speaker 2: And our final question, you talked about the difference between
[16:42] Speaker 2: retirement spending and legacy planning. Explain to listeners what that
[16:49] Speaker 2: difference actually is.
[16:51] Speaker 3: So I'm not sure how to answer that question, Barry, And.
[16:56] Speaker 2: It came from your article about your parents helping you
[17:00] Speaker 2: with the down payment.
[17:01] Speaker 4: Okay, okay, could you ask me again?
[17:04] Speaker 2: Sure? So, in the article you wrote about spending while
[17:09] Speaker 2: you're still alive, talking about how your folks help you
[17:13] Speaker 2: and your husband with the down payment for your first
[17:16] Speaker 2: house and how much that was a significant change to you.
[17:22] Speaker 2: Guys personally explain the difference between simple retirement spending and
[17:29] Speaker 2: legacy planning.
[17:31] Speaker 3: The term spending I think is super loaded. When we
[17:34] Speaker 3: tell people they should be able to spend X in retirement,
[17:38] Speaker 3: I think they automatically jump to It means we're telling
[17:41] Speaker 3: them to buy cars every year and if they don't
[17:44] Speaker 3: need a new one, or go out to dinner every night,
[17:46] Speaker 3: even if that's not really something they want to do.
[17:48] Speaker 3: And so I think this term spending is kind of loaded,
[17:51] Speaker 3: and maybe we're a little bit judgy about it, but
[17:54] Speaker 3: I would urge people to think broadly about retirement spending,
[17:59] Speaker 3: and you use their retirement spending to do some legacy planning.
[18:04] Speaker 3: So you know, the example of our hometown payment is
[18:08] Speaker 3: one way that I think my parents pursued legacy. They
[18:13] Speaker 3: you know, certainly made an impact on our lives.
[18:15] Speaker 4: They kept us nice and.
[18:16] Speaker 3: Close to them so that we were able to help
[18:19] Speaker 3: them later in life because we lived nice and close by.
[18:23] Speaker 3: So I would urge people to think bigger about retirement spending,
[18:27] Speaker 3: that it should encompass some of these legacy goals, and
[18:30] Speaker 3: you should give yourself permission to give to your loved
[18:35] Speaker 3: ones during their lifetimes and during your lifetime.
[18:38] Speaker 2: So to wrap up, everybody needs to plan for retirement,
[18:43] Speaker 2: but we also need to think about our spending. The
[18:47] Speaker 2: odds are that we're going to spend more in the
[18:49] Speaker 2: early parts of our retirement when we're still younger and
[18:53] Speaker 2: more mobile than the latter part of our retirement. And
[18:56] Speaker 2: we really need to think about the prior standard of
[19:02] Speaker 2: waiting till you're deceased for the monies to find its
[19:04] Speaker 2: way to the rest of your family. Assuming you have
[19:08] Speaker 2: enough money to live on and that you're not going
[19:10] Speaker 2: to outlive your cash, don't be afraid to spend a
[19:13] Speaker 2: little money. Don't be afraid to donate a little money,
[19:16] Speaker 2: whether it's family members or charity, while you're still alive
[19:20] Speaker 2: and while you could see the benefits of your generosity
[19:25] Speaker 2: with your own eyes. I'm barry redults, you're listening to
[19:29] Speaker 2: Bloombergs at the money in material

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