# THE TRUTH ABOUT TIFO FOOTBALL _ JOE DEVINE _ RETROSPECTIVE_ MY JOURNEY(M4A_128K)

An episode of [Footbal Beyond the Pitch](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6821032841), 20 Oct 2026, 39 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/75863267/the_truth_about_tifo_football_joe_devine_retrospective_my_journey_m4a_128k.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: So that narrows the field quite a lot because most
[0:03] Speaker 1: news journalism is not evergreen for the obvious reason that
[0:07] Speaker 1: the topics that come up in a week aren't going
[0:09] Speaker 1: to necessarily be that interesting two weeks later.
[0:11] Speaker 2: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Have you hit that subscribe button?
[0:16] Speaker 2: If not, what are you waiting for?
[0:19] Speaker 1: Do it. Hello, one and all.
[0:21] Speaker 3: Welcome back to Retrospective. It's me and it's Chris, the
[0:23] Speaker 3: two usually Ugly mugs you see every week. We're getting
[0:26] Speaker 3: worse and worse. Lockdown hair is not so great.
[0:29] Speaker 2: It's not looking good at the moment, boys.
[0:33] Speaker 3: Chris is resembling a toilet brush more and more each week.
[0:38] Speaker 4: You can see.
[0:38] Speaker 2: And I've got a new background, guys, as well, by
[0:40] Speaker 2: the way. Loving life. All the scousers in the comments section, enjoy.
[0:46] Speaker 5: But today we're joined by a very special guest, the
[0:49] Speaker 5: athletic and TIFO's very own Joe Devine.
[0:51] Speaker 2: Have I pronounced it right?
[0:53] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. Good job.
[0:54] Speaker 2: Fantastic stuff. How are you, pal?
[0:56] Speaker 4: I'm okay, thanks.
[0:57] Speaker 1: You just reminded me that teachers always used to call
[0:59] Speaker 1: me Devine when I was in school.
[1:01] Speaker 4: Lovely job, Chris. Thank you.
[1:03] Speaker 5: Excellent job. First of all, mate, we're just going to
[1:06] Speaker 5: ask the easy question. How is lockdown for you? Are
[1:09] Speaker 5: you coping all right?
[1:11] Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's okay, to be honest.
[1:12] Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously TIFO recently became a part
[1:16] Speaker 1: of the athletics, so our working life has changed a
[1:18] Speaker 1: little bit. But before that, for number of years uh
[1:21] Speaker 1: it was a very small team and it was mostly
[1:23] Speaker 1: just me in an office in Islington in London on
[1:26] Speaker 1: my own um so I am I'm whilst I'm at
[1:29] Speaker 1: home now and I'm not in the office I am
[1:31] Speaker 1: very used to being on my own in a room
[1:33] Speaker 1: for long periods of time so it doesn't really feel
[1:34] Speaker 1: that much like anything has changed to be honest but
[1:36] Speaker 1: I have had to cut my own hair oh god
[1:39] Speaker 1: crikey could be better yeah how about you guys everything
[1:44] Speaker 1: okay in lockdown um.
[1:46] Speaker 5: Well we're surviving we're making a lot of these which
[1:48] Speaker 5: really helps um But yeah, Haas, really start off the
[1:53] Speaker 5: questions that make retrospective itself.
[1:56] Speaker 3: Yeah, so just give us a sort of a rundown
[1:58] Speaker 3: of what you do currently, you know, what's your present day,
[2:02] Speaker 3: you know, on a normal basis?
[2:05] Speaker 4: Yeah, sure.
[2:06] Speaker 1: So I don't know, it changes quite a lot, to
[2:08] Speaker 1: be honest, depending on what projects we're working on. So
[2:11] Speaker 1: I run Tifo Football, which is now part of The Athletic.
[2:15] Speaker 1: And as a part of that, I spend a lot
[2:17] Speaker 1: of time having meetings, I'm more of a facilitator now
[2:21] Speaker 1: for the people who get to do the fun, interesting
[2:23] Speaker 1: parts of work. So I'll have conversations with the script
[2:27] Speaker 1: writers who are writing the pieces or with Seb Stafford-Bloor,
[2:30] Speaker 1: who's our content editor, who oversees a lot of that.
[2:32] Speaker 1: Or I'll talk to the designers who are actually making
[2:34] Speaker 1: the videos. So I get to watch them at the end,
[2:37] Speaker 1: which is fun. But in terms of my actual participation
[2:40] Speaker 1: in them, it's just voiceovers now pretty much. And yeah,
[2:44] Speaker 1: beyond that, i don't know i host the podcast for
[2:47] Speaker 1: tifo as well which is fun we do two of
[2:48] Speaker 1: those a week so i get to meet lots of
[2:50] Speaker 1: um interesting people and this is a bit of a
[2:53] Speaker 1: role reversal for me normally i'm asking questions so absolutely.
[2:57] Speaker 4: Uncomfortable um yeah that's that's that's about it really.
[3:01] Speaker 3: Yeah yeah well uh tifo football it's it's quite a
[3:06] Speaker 3: unique uh uh sort of a project in itself i
[3:10] Speaker 3: mean i've watched it for years myself i'd watched it
[3:13] Speaker 3: when you were still called Umacs in football, as I
[3:15] Speaker 3: think is how I remember it. It's a very different
[3:18] Speaker 3: thing for people who may not be aware of it.
[3:21] Speaker 3: Give us a sort of explanation of what Tifo is.
[3:24] Speaker 4: Well, yeah, how do I describe it?
[3:26] Speaker 1: I suppose, I mean, we think we call it sort
[3:28] Speaker 1: of illustrated, informative video content. So what we do is
[3:32] Speaker 1: we make illustrated or in some cases animated short films
[3:36] Speaker 1: for YouTube, quite narrowly focused on specific football topics.
[3:41] Speaker 4: We cover quite broad.
[3:42] Speaker 1: Range of themes we're quite well known for our tactics
[3:46] Speaker 1: videos which are mostly written by Alex Stewart where we'll
[3:50] Speaker 1: try to cover broadly speaking the tactics of a team
[3:52] Speaker 1: or a particularly interesting tactical aspect of one team or
[3:56] Speaker 1: a player we also do longer history pieces and stories
[4:01] Speaker 1: and I think part of our forte as well is
[4:03] Speaker 1: videos that have a bit of a geopolitical bent so
[4:05] Speaker 1: we like to try and tell football stories from around
[4:07] Speaker 1: the world and as best as we can cover teams
[4:11] Speaker 1: and countries, you know, not necessarily affiliated with the Premier League,
[4:14] Speaker 1: which is difficult because we're all from England or from
[4:17] Speaker 1: the UK. But we do our best there. And yeah,
[4:20] Speaker 1: we've been releasing videos. I think we do four a
[4:22] Speaker 1: week now. We've been doing it for four or five years.
[4:24] Speaker 1: And the channel has gone from strength to strength and
[4:27] Speaker 1: people really seem to like it, which is lovely.
[4:31] Speaker 2: For you personally, Joe, where did it all start for you?
[4:34] Speaker 5: Were you always into sort of the video stuff, the
[4:36] Speaker 5: writing stuff at an early age?
[4:40] Speaker 4: No, not really.
[4:41] Speaker 1: Um, I mean, this started because, uh, so I suppose
[4:47] Speaker 1: if I go back, I don't know, seven, eight years,
[4:50] Speaker 1: I started a blog with my sister, um, who has
[4:53] Speaker 1: actually recently joined us at TIFO and is our production
[4:57] Speaker 1: supervisor now. Um, she had just finished art school and, uh,
[5:02] Speaker 1: she was working in a pub and we were both
[5:03] Speaker 1: working in the same pub actually. And she wasn't doing
[5:06] Speaker 1: any illustration. Um, and, Yeah, she said to me that
[5:09] Speaker 1: she wanted to do something regularly. And at the time,
[5:12] Speaker 1: because I was working in the pub, the pub showed
[5:14] Speaker 1: a lot of football and I was into it and
[5:16] Speaker 1: watching it with regulars and friends. And at the time
[5:19] Speaker 1: I sort of, I had maybe an advanced knowledge for.
[5:22] Speaker 4: A fan, you know?
[5:23] Speaker 1: And so I said to her, okay, let's start a blog.
[5:26] Speaker 1: As long as it can be about football, I'll do it.
[5:29] Speaker 1: And we started that years ago. It's called The Illustrated Game.
[5:33] Speaker 1: And that, I don't know, we did that for about
[5:34] Speaker 1: a year or two. We started a podcast with that.
[5:36] Speaker 1: We met a lot of people, um, through Twitter and
[5:40] Speaker 1: on the internet. And eventually some of the people I
[5:44] Speaker 1: met were looking to hire a social media manager. And
[5:47] Speaker 1: that was a Neil clerk who started the company called
[5:49] Speaker 1: you max it football, which was TFO's previous name.
[5:52] Speaker 4: Um, and so I took the job.
[5:54] Speaker 1: In fact, I job shared it with Alex Stewart initially
[5:57] Speaker 1: who left after about two, two months cause he's rubbish
[5:59] Speaker 1: at his work.
[6:00] Speaker 4: And, um, It went from there really.
[6:03] Speaker 1: I mean, I was doing mostly scheduling on Twitter and Facebook,
[6:08] Speaker 1: and I think we were even doing Instagram then. And
[6:11] Speaker 1: Umex was commissioning a lot of written articles. So Seb
[6:15] Speaker 1: was around at the time as well. And there was
[6:17] Speaker 1: a bunch of writers who were doing stuff on a
[6:19] Speaker 1: weekly basis for us. And one of the ideas was
[6:23] Speaker 1: to see if we could try and utilize that material
[6:26] Speaker 1: and turn it into videos. which is a difficult thing
[6:30] Speaker 1: to do in the football space as people probably aware,
[6:32] Speaker 1: because there are so many copyright issues that you can't,
[6:36] Speaker 1: you know, you can't really use footage and essentially, you know,
[6:38] Speaker 1: somebody owns the IP for everything. So finding an original
[6:42] Speaker 1: way of doing that is difficult, but that's where the
[6:44] Speaker 1: idea for the illustrations came from. And so I, the first,
[6:49] Speaker 1: I don't know, sort of 20 or 30, I wrote
[6:52] Speaker 1: and made them myself. They're terrible now. I can't watch
[6:56] Speaker 1: them back again, but they're still up on the channel.
[6:59] Speaker 1: And they just did exceptionally well. And we were all
[7:03] Speaker 1: a bit surprised, really. I mean, it seemed like a
[7:05] Speaker 1: good idea when we'd started, but I don't think we
[7:08] Speaker 1: expected it to.
[7:11] Speaker 4: Do as well as it did. And yeah, I mean,
[7:16] Speaker 4: I've gone from there, really. Yeah.
[7:18] Speaker 2: And obviously you started social media stuff.
[7:21] Speaker 5: Was it your intention really to become not on the camera,
[7:24] Speaker 5: but on the video in terms of voiceovers?
[7:27] Speaker 2: Is this something that you wanted to do when Tifo started?
[7:31] Speaker 1: No, I just did it because I was the only person.
[7:32] Speaker 1: I mean, I was making literally everything, every aspect of
[7:36] Speaker 1: the video I was doing. So, yeah, I did the
[7:38] Speaker 1: voiceovers at the beginning. And I get like, in fact,
[7:42] Speaker 1: I watched back some of the early ones a couple
[7:44] Speaker 1: of days ago. I was looking back through the archive
[7:45] Speaker 1: for something. And the quality of the audio as well.
[7:48] Speaker 1: And the way that I do the voiceovers is the
[7:50] Speaker 1: thing that makes me cringe the most. But no, yeah,
[7:54] Speaker 1: it's literally just a case of me being there to
[7:58] Speaker 1: do them. And it's sort of blossomed from that. But
[8:01] Speaker 1: it's interesting with the voiceovers because It's really nice. We
[8:06] Speaker 1: get a lot of positive comments about the voiceover and
[8:08] Speaker 1: people seem to like it. And I think it does
[8:10] Speaker 1: something a little different to what a lot of YouTube
[8:13] Speaker 1: channels do. It's not particularly passionate. It's not very loud.
[8:16] Speaker 1: It's sort of, you know, it really just does the
[8:19] Speaker 1: job of explaining what we're talking about. But because I've
[8:22] Speaker 1: been doing it for so long, I mean, this is
[8:24] Speaker 1: five years now of probably recording myself for at least
[8:28] Speaker 1: a couple of hours.
[8:29] Speaker 4: And if you include the podcasts, maybe four hours a week.
[8:32] Speaker 1: My voice has completely changed and I can't, it's sort
[8:35] Speaker 1: of happened organically and it's a, it's a strange thing,
[8:38] Speaker 1: but I can hear myself talking in my head now
[8:42] Speaker 1: all the time. And I've adjusted the way that I
[8:44] Speaker 1: say words sort of, you know, in a small way, gradually.
[8:48] Speaker 4: Over a process of time.
[8:49] Speaker 1: So yeah, it'd be interesting if there's any audio of
[8:52] Speaker 1: me from five or six years ago to see how
[8:54] Speaker 1: different I actually sound.
[8:55] Speaker 4: It's interesting.
[8:57] Speaker 3: I was going to know you sound pretty much exactly
[8:58] Speaker 3: how I've heard you on the video. It's like, Normally
[9:02] Speaker 3: when you have people who do voiceover stuff, their sort
[9:04] Speaker 3: of normal speaking voice is different from their voiceover voice,
[9:07] Speaker 3: if that makes sense.
[9:08] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[9:09] Speaker 3: But have you found you've kind of adopted, I guess
[9:12] Speaker 3: persona is not quite the right word, but you see
[9:15] Speaker 3: what I mean? Do you feel like you've sort of
[9:16] Speaker 3: just become stuck in that mindset?
[9:21] Speaker 4: Yeah, a little bit.
[9:22] Speaker 2: Do you know what?
[9:22] Speaker 1: I wouldn't describe it as stuck, but I do have
[9:24] Speaker 1: a bit of a problem with the podcasts because... Tifo,
[9:30] Speaker 1: if you'll forgive me for talking about it as a brand,
[9:33] Speaker 1: it's sensible, it's sort of quite semi-serious, it's informative.
[9:38] Speaker 4: I'm none of those things. And so when I'm doing
[9:40] Speaker 4: the podcast, I do struggle.
[9:42] Speaker 1: Not to let my sort of natural self come out,
[9:45] Speaker 1: which is to be slightly more cynical and make fun
[9:49] Speaker 1: of everything. So yeah, in terms of the idea of
[9:52] Speaker 1: being stuck in a persona, I do feel a little
[9:54] Speaker 1: bit crammed into sensible Tifo land. But that's probably a
[9:57] Speaker 1: good thing because I think if I let my natural
[9:59] Speaker 1: self go, no one would be listening.
[10:04] Speaker 3: Well, obviously, you know, you've joined up with The Athletic,
[10:07] Speaker 3: which is quite a new platform in itself. We've had
[10:10] Speaker 3: Ryan Conway from The Athletic on previously. How did that
[10:15] Speaker 3: come about in terms of that sort of collaboration? So
[10:17] Speaker 3: I know that they've absorbed a lot of different.
[10:20] Speaker 3: Different sort of platforms and stuff like that in the
[10:22] Speaker 3: way of podcasts so how did the collaborative athletic come along.
[10:27] Speaker 1: Pretty simply to be honest I mean as you know
[10:29] Speaker 1: they they launched in the UK last summer in 2019
[10:33] Speaker 1: and and they kind of made waves at the time
[10:35] Speaker 1: they had a lot of excellent journalists and people were
[10:39] Speaker 1: talking about them and I think you know any company
[10:43] Speaker 1: with ambition looks at the space and sees what other
[10:47] Speaker 1: people are doing. And when they came to the UK,
[10:49] Speaker 1: I think thankfully they identified Tifo as an example of
[10:55] Speaker 1: a group of people obviously doing something right. And I
[10:58] Speaker 1: think they, I guess it's a sort of natural evolution
[11:02] Speaker 1: of a sponsorship relationship which started at the time. So
[11:04] Speaker 1: we did some sponsored videos for them for a while
[11:06] Speaker 1: where we adapted some of their written articles into videos
[11:10] Speaker 1: and that seemed to work really well for them and
[11:12] Speaker 1: for us. And yeah, it was a natural evolution of
[11:15] Speaker 1: that really. But it's been great so far. And it's
[11:19] Speaker 1: a bit of a big change for us. As I
[11:21] Speaker 1: said before, we're a small team. And personally, I've never
[11:25] Speaker 1: worked before for a company that has more than 10 employees. So,
[11:31] Speaker 1: you know, moving to The Athletic has been, bit of
[11:34] Speaker 1: a was a bit of a culture shock initially um
[11:36] Speaker 1: but it's fantastic because everyone's so friendly and um you
[11:40] Speaker 1: know there's if you have any questions or if you
[11:43] Speaker 1: need to get in contact with someone or if you
[11:45] Speaker 1: need an answer to something there's like one of their
[11:48] Speaker 1: employees has the answer for you and it's there's a
[11:51] Speaker 1: real collaborative feel to it which is um i found
[11:54] Speaker 1: to be really enjoyable.
[11:56] Speaker 5: Yeah and in terms of of your view from sort
[11:59] Speaker 5: of an outside point of view on the journalistic sense
[12:03] Speaker 5: Do you think that their entrance into the UK market
[12:07] Speaker 5: has made a healthy impact?
[12:11] Speaker 4: I think so. Yeah. I mean, it's a difficult one,
[12:13] Speaker 4: isn't it?
[12:15] Speaker 1: But I would say, I mean, the one way I
[12:18] Speaker 1: would look at it is that their entry into the
[12:20] Speaker 1: UK market created, I can't, you know, I can't even
[12:24] Speaker 1: number the number of jobs, maybe 50, 60, possibly 70
[12:28] Speaker 1: new jobs in sports journalism.
[12:31] Speaker 4: Which weren't there before.
[12:32] Speaker 1: So, I mean, I would say that's probably the only
[12:34] Speaker 1: real way to look at it. And then when you do, yeah,
[12:37] Speaker 1: that's definitely, it's definitely a healthy impact.
[12:40] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[12:41] Speaker 5: And obviously I'm a subscriber myself, so I pay the
[12:45] Speaker 5: subscription fee. Some people obviously don't like that in terms
[12:49] Speaker 5: of the traditionalist, you know, it's got to be free,
[12:52] Speaker 5: but what do you, what would you say to those people?
[12:55] Speaker 5: We asked the same question to Ryan, um, on the
[12:58] Speaker 5: first actual episode of a retrospective, what would you say
[13:02] Speaker 5: to people who are sort of cynical of the subscription model?
[13:07] Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know, really.
[13:10] Speaker 1: I mean, I can understand my, you know, knee jerk
[13:14] Speaker 1: reaction or my sort of gut instinct is, well, I
[13:17] Speaker 1: don't want to, I don't want to pay for anything.
[13:18] Speaker 4: Everything's been free. You know, I'm quite young.
[13:20] Speaker 1: I'm quite a young guy in comparison to a lot
[13:21] Speaker 1: of the people who work there and to a lot
[13:24] Speaker 1: of my peers. And so maybe as a millennial, I
[13:26] Speaker 1: have a sort of different reaction to it, having been
[13:30] Speaker 1: so lucky for such a long time to be part
[13:32] Speaker 1: of the Napster generation. But in reality, the real traditionalist
[13:37] Speaker 1: view is that news costs money. I mean, we've worked
[13:41] Speaker 1: in an industry which is based on advertising for the
[13:44] Speaker 1: last 15, 20 years, and that's not stable. And you
[13:49] Speaker 1: can see at times, obviously, it's an the pandemic at
[13:53] Speaker 1: the moment and that's a very very unusual set of
[13:55] Speaker 1: circumstances but the advertising industry doesn't support journalism at a
[14:01] Speaker 1: time like this um and i think you know as
[14:03] Speaker 1: long as what the offer is is something different and
[14:07] Speaker 1: something genuine and with the athletic it truly is um
[14:12] Speaker 1: then i think of course you know people really you
[14:15] Speaker 1: if you want access to that level of work I
[14:18] Speaker 1: think you have to pay for it. And to be honest, that's,
[14:20] Speaker 1: you know, looking at the way that the industry is moving,
[14:22] Speaker 1: that's probably where it's going. I guess the slight frustration
[14:26] Speaker 1: on the part of a consumer, and I find this
[14:28] Speaker 1: more with OTT streaming platforms, is that now everyone's sort
[14:32] Speaker 1: of cottoned onto it at the top level. You end
[14:35] Speaker 1: up paying quite a lot to subscribe to various different platforms,
[14:40] Speaker 1: which is, you know, again, I suppose a bit of
[14:43] Speaker 1: a strain on the bank account or a bit frustrating,
[14:46] Speaker 1: but At the same time, I think, you know, if
[14:48] Speaker 1: you put it in context and in perspective, like we've
[14:51] Speaker 1: been incredibly lucky for 10 years to be able to
[14:53] Speaker 1: pay five pounds for Netflix and have pretty much everything.
[14:57] Speaker 1: I mean, that just, that hasn't happened at any other
[15:00] Speaker 1: point in history and there's no way it was ever
[15:01] Speaker 1: going to last. So I think if we can broaden
[15:04] Speaker 1: our perspective a little bit and if we can accept
[15:07] Speaker 1: that when we do pay for something, and we're.
[15:09] Speaker 4: Talking about a very small amount of money as well.
[15:11] Speaker 1: I mean, Tifo ran a 50% off code for an
[15:15] Speaker 1: annual subscription for a while.
[15:17] Speaker 4: It's less than £ 2. 50 a month.
[15:18] Speaker 1: I mean, it's less than people will probably pay on
[15:20] Speaker 1: a coffee if they live in a city centre. So
[15:23] Speaker 1: I think with some people, it's more like the principle
[15:25] Speaker 1: of paying for it rather than the actual amount of money,
[15:27] Speaker 1: which again, is a standpoint that I do have sympathy for,
[15:30] Speaker 1: I do understand. But I think, yeah, if we can
[15:33] Speaker 1: broaden our sort of perception on that, we'll realise that, yeah,
[15:38] Speaker 1: the last 10 years has been the anomaly and we're
[15:41] Speaker 1: probably going back to a place where we can afford
[15:43] Speaker 1: to pay for better journalism, which ultimately can be a
[15:46] Speaker 1: better service to communities as well.
[15:50] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[15:51] Speaker 3: Obviously you mentioned, you know, the subscription to TIFO now.
[15:55] Speaker 3: When you sort of first welcomed that into being a thing,
[15:58] Speaker 3: what did you have to do to sort of change
[16:00] Speaker 3: your own approach in that sense? So obviously being on
[16:03] Speaker 3: YouTube for so long and being free in that sense.
[16:06] Speaker 3: you know did you find you had to struggle to
[16:10] Speaker 3: come up with new ideas to justify people you know
[16:12] Speaker 3: paying that or tempting people to pay for that essentially
[16:15] Speaker 3: well we're.
[16:16] Speaker 1: Still free so like everything that TIFO makes is still
[16:18] Speaker 1: free online do we have to justify people signing up
[16:22] Speaker 1: to the athletic I mean yes that's part of our
[16:23] Speaker 1: job is to try and is to try and bring
[16:26] Speaker 1: people to the athletic and show them what's available and
[16:28] Speaker 1: so a lot we spend a lot of time thinking
[16:30] Speaker 1: about well I mean you know for a start reading
[16:33] Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that is published on the
[16:35] Speaker 1: site and trying to isolate the pieces that will have,
[16:38] Speaker 1: you know, a wide interest or that might work well
[16:41] Speaker 1: in video form. But to be honest, I find that,
[16:44] Speaker 1: you know, if you can reach fans of specific clubs,
[16:50] Speaker 1: it's not a hard sell because they already want this.
[16:53] Speaker 1: You know, if the Athletic are going to cover Norwich
[16:55] Speaker 1: City in a way that, you know, only the.
[16:58] Speaker 4: Eastern Daily Press would have done before.
[17:00] Speaker 1: And if Michael Bailey, who worked at the Eastern Daily
[17:02] Speaker 1: Press for 15 years or whatever, works for the Athletic
[17:04] Speaker 1: now and has, the best access and is going to
[17:07] Speaker 1: guarantee three or four excellent pieces on Norwich City every
[17:11] Speaker 1: week that you're not going to get anywhere else and
[17:13] Speaker 1: if you can get that plus that level or that
[17:15] Speaker 1: degree of access to you know pretty much every other
[17:19] Speaker 1: sports club in the UK or in America for sure
[17:25] Speaker 1: that's a really easy thing to sell like that's what
[17:28] Speaker 1: people want people are already paying for that you know
[17:31] Speaker 1: so I think it's just a case of letting people
[17:33] Speaker 1: know that it's there and trying to trying to show
[17:36] Speaker 1: them what the quality is.
[17:37] Speaker 4: And, you know, the athletic have a really high rate
[17:40] Speaker 4: of retention for subscribers. And that's not a coincidence.
[17:43] Speaker 1: That's because when people come on for a free trial
[17:45] Speaker 1: or people, you know, sign up for the first year,
[17:47] Speaker 1: they tend not to leave because they're getting.
[17:49] Speaker 4: What they want for what's in reality, not really very
[17:52] Speaker 4: much money.
[17:54] Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think that's the heart. I think it's
[17:57] Speaker 3: because it kind of, it kind of breaks the mold
[17:59] Speaker 3: and I don't think people are used to that as
[18:00] Speaker 3: Chris said before. So like, it's a case of showing
[18:05] Speaker 3: people that, that sort of side of it. So with
[18:08] Speaker 3: TIFO it's more, you know, video related side of that.
[18:13] Speaker 3: Do you guys sort of see the articles that you'll
[18:15] Speaker 3: see on The Athletic and think, okay, that'll work well
[18:19] Speaker 3: in visual form. And so what's your kind of key
[18:21] Speaker 3: giveaways to articles that would be good in visual form?
[18:25] Speaker 4: Yeah. I think it's more the story.
[18:28] Speaker 1: So for us, it's how the story is approached and,
[18:31] Speaker 1: We try to be quite narrow in our focus. So
[18:34] Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of a recent example of something
[18:36] Speaker 1: we've converted. In fact, it hasn't gone out yet, but
[18:40] Speaker 1: it will go out in a week or two's time.
[18:43] Speaker 1: It's the story of Alan Smith moving from Leeds to
[18:46] Speaker 1: Manchester United. And there's a lot to that story and
[18:50] Speaker 1: there's a lot of different people's voices as part of
[18:51] Speaker 1: that story, but it's pretty narrow focus. I mean, it's
[18:54] Speaker 1: one thing that happened. And we tend to find that, yeah,
[18:57] Speaker 1: if we're explaining something in a linear fashion, really that's
[19:00] Speaker 1: what a TIFO video is for, that works a little
[19:03] Speaker 1: bit better. So we can filter through pieces. I mean,
[19:07] Speaker 1: the Athletic does some incredible news work, which is quite
[19:09] Speaker 1: broad and which is quite timely. It doesn't work for
[19:12] Speaker 1: us because we have a lead time, maybe it's a
[19:14] Speaker 1: week or two before we can get a video out.
[19:17] Speaker 4: We can't edit them once they're up either.
[19:19] Speaker 1: So our aim, generally speaking, is to try and create
[19:22] Speaker 1: content which is evergreen or, you know, for at least
[19:24] Speaker 1: a year or two, if someone comes back and watches
[19:26] Speaker 1: it later, that it's still fairly relevant.
[19:29] Speaker 4: So that narrows the field quite a lot.
[19:31] Speaker 1: Because most news journalism is not evergreen for the obvious
[19:36] Speaker 1: reason that topics that come up in a week aren't
[19:38] Speaker 1: going to necessarily be that interesting two weeks later.
[19:41] Speaker 4: So that would generally be our approach to it.
[19:43] Speaker 1: But yeah, on a secondary level, the design stuff, but
[19:45] Speaker 1: there's another one, a story about a theme park, which
[19:49] Speaker 1: we're going to, convert. I think that hasn't gone out
[19:51] Speaker 1: yet either. But reading through that story, it's just so
[19:55] Speaker 1: obvious that it would make a fantastic one because it's
[19:57] Speaker 1: a theme park.
[19:58] Speaker 4: Theme parks look cool, so we can draw a cool
[20:00] Speaker 4: theme park.
[20:02] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[20:03] Speaker 5: And for you guys, obviously, another link into the current situation.
[20:09] Speaker 5: as you create evergreen content that in terms of other platforms,
[20:15] Speaker 5: it probably hasn't affected you as much because the content
[20:19] Speaker 5: is still there.
[20:19] Speaker 2: Would you say that's fair?
[20:22] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[20:22] Speaker 1: It hasn't affected us in the sense that we don't
[20:24] Speaker 1: have to change what we're doing because we're doing the
[20:26] Speaker 1: same thing now. It, based on our previous model if
[20:31] Speaker 1: we weren't part of the athletic it definitely would have
[20:32] Speaker 1: affected us because obviously we relied on advertising um to
[20:36] Speaker 1: make ends meet at the end of the month and
[20:38] Speaker 1: it would have definitely been a difficult time for us
[20:40] Speaker 1: uh but yeah in terms of our content output it's
[20:43] Speaker 1: it's pretty much the same um which which certainly makes
[20:47] Speaker 1: life easier.
[20:48] Speaker 5: Yeah yeah and what would you say what would you
[20:50] Speaker 5: say is your your favorite sort of content to make
[20:53] Speaker 5: obviously you don't actually get involved in the in the
[20:55] Speaker 5: fun stuff as you called it earlier but what's your
[20:57] Speaker 5: uh favorite content that you like to that you like
[21:01] Speaker 5: to produce and to put on the channel for you well.
[21:04] Speaker 1: I think that I mean there's two answers to that
[21:06] Speaker 1: one is just the best stories I mean we did
[21:10] Speaker 1: one on Iraq's 2007 win of the Asian Cup which
[21:14] Speaker 1: is just it's my favorite video that we've made I
[21:16] Speaker 1: think um not for reasons of design although it's fantastic
[21:20] Speaker 1: and not for reasons of the script although it's fantastic
[21:23] Speaker 1: um but because the story's so good you know and
[21:26] Speaker 1: and you know that's what that's really.
[21:28] Speaker 4: What people are after as well, is good football stories.
[21:31] Speaker 4: So that would be my first answer.
[21:33] Speaker 1: The second, I have more of a personal interest in
[21:35] Speaker 1: stories that have a bit of a geopolitical bent to them.
[21:39] Speaker 1: So we released recently a bit of a profile, really,
[21:42] Speaker 1: of Mohammed bin Salman, who's the Crown Prince of Saudi
[21:45] Speaker 1: Arabia and who is the chairman of the PAF Fund,
[21:47] Speaker 1: which are in a proposed takeover of Newcastle United at
[21:50] Speaker 1: the moment. And we work with an incredible journalist called
[21:54] Speaker 1: James Montague, who's been reporting particularly on Middle Eastern football
[21:58] Speaker 1: for the last sort of 15.
[21:59] Speaker 4: Years, but all around the world, really.
[22:01] Speaker 1: And James has, I think, an unparalleled knowledge of these
[22:06] Speaker 1: sorts of events. So when it comes to pieces of
[22:11] Speaker 1: content like that, I feel TIFO can really create something
[22:15] Speaker 1: which is unique.
[22:16] Speaker 4: And in a way, I feel like our video.
[22:21] Speaker 1: About that man and about that football club takeover is...
[22:25] Speaker 1: I don't want to blow our trumpet too much, but
[22:27] Speaker 1: I think it's the best coverage of that that you'll
[22:29] Speaker 1: find anywhere. And that's great because we're a YouTube channel,
[22:32] Speaker 1: you know, so it's not really supposed to work like that.
[22:35] Speaker 4: So things like that give me a bit of a kick. Yeah.
[22:40] Speaker 3: One thing I want to touch on, a more personal
[22:42] Speaker 3: sort of scenario with what's going on is a lot
[22:45] Speaker 3: of sort of media professionals and journalists have obviously had
[22:48] Speaker 3: the hits of motivation through this with sort of being
[22:52] Speaker 3: locked inside and stuff, more from a mental aspect. So
[22:55] Speaker 3: Have you found you've struggled with that at all? I
[22:57] Speaker 3: know you said obviously earlier that you're sort of used
[23:01] Speaker 3: to being in a room for long periods of time,
[23:03] Speaker 3: but have you found that this scenario has had any
[23:06] Speaker 3: mental knock on you at all?
[23:09] Speaker 4: It didn't initially, probably more now.
[23:11] Speaker 1: I think I found it harder since the slight easing
[23:15] Speaker 1: of the lockdown, or in England at least, I know
[23:17] Speaker 1: it's not the case in the rest of the UK.
[23:20] Speaker 1: But I don't know, I think that had a bit
[23:21] Speaker 1: of a, a subconscious effect where everyone knew that that
[23:25] Speaker 1: was coming, that sort of felt beforehand, like it might be,
[23:29] Speaker 1: you know, the end of the lockdown, even though we
[23:31] Speaker 1: knew practically that wasn't going to be the case. So
[23:34] Speaker 1: once you get past that point and the realization sets in,
[23:36] Speaker 1: it's like, okay, this is, this is going.
[23:38] Speaker 4: To be a long time now. Yeah.
[23:40] Speaker 1: It's definitely been harder since then, but I'm pretty used to,
[23:44] Speaker 1: to this, as I said, and to be honest, the
[23:46] Speaker 1: cool thing about TIFO is that we have, you know,
[23:50] Speaker 1: two week turnarounds for things. So it's, and because we
[23:53] Speaker 1: release four videos a week, there's always the next project. Um,
[23:57] Speaker 1: and because you have, you know, that two weeks, it's
[23:59] Speaker 1: not like you have to write it that day and
[24:00] Speaker 1: file it and it's out the next day. Um, the
[24:03] Speaker 1: shelf life for these things is, is much longer. And
[24:05] Speaker 1: so we can spend more time talking about them. We
[24:07] Speaker 1: can spend more time working on them. Um, and it's
[24:10] Speaker 1: exciting to follow that through from the beginning to the end.
[24:12] Speaker 1: So that's what, that's what I like about it because
[24:14] Speaker 1: as I said, I'm not so much part of the
[24:16] Speaker 1: fun stuff. Um, you know, in an active sense as
[24:20] Speaker 1: I was at the beginning. But I do get to
[24:22] Speaker 1: see every video through from the beginning until the end,
[24:24] Speaker 1: which gives me a great sense of satisfaction. So, yeah,
[24:28] Speaker 1: even during the lockdown, that's still happening at a completely
[24:32] Speaker 1: unmanageable pace, the same as normal. So it's definitely something
[24:36] Speaker 1: to focus on. And I do feel for people who
[24:40] Speaker 1: are furloughed during this time or who don't have work
[24:44] Speaker 1: or who have nothing to do. In fact, my flatmate,
[24:46] Speaker 1: spends you know most of his time in the house
[24:50] Speaker 1: sort of watching telly or reading because he's um he's
[24:52] Speaker 1: a stage uh stage manager in the west end and
[24:54] Speaker 1: obviously there's no theater at the moment so he's not
[24:58] Speaker 1: working and can't visit anyone and you know i'm working
[25:02] Speaker 1: all the time so it's um i feel for people
[25:04] Speaker 1: like that i think i'd rather be in my situation
[25:07] Speaker 1: than in um in a situation where i had nothing
[25:08] Speaker 1: to do.
[25:09] Speaker 3: Yeah and again you mentioned that you sort of stepped
[25:14] Speaker 3: away from being involved in the more creative side of
[25:18] Speaker 3: the production now did you find that hard initially sort
[25:21] Speaker 3: of having been at the forefront of it for so
[25:23] Speaker 3: long and then i had to step back and sort
[25:25] Speaker 3: of just oversee instead yeah.
[25:28] Speaker 1: Yeah and partly because the creative stuff is fun um
[25:32] Speaker 1: and also partly for you know i was slightly embarrassed
[25:35] Speaker 1: to say for ego reasons because suddenly other people are
[25:38] Speaker 1: making the stuff and you know your name is on
[25:40] Speaker 1: it because i'm narrating the video but it's actually quite
[25:43] Speaker 1: hard um you know, it's, it's theoretically, it's harder to
[25:47] Speaker 1: see what my impact actually is. So from, yeah, from
[25:50] Speaker 1: that perspective, yeah, I've got a bruised ego over that still,
[25:54] Speaker 1: still now.
[25:56] Speaker 4: And, but no, yeah, from a creative perspective, yeah, because it's,
[25:59] Speaker 4: it's fun.
[25:59] Speaker 1: And, and what I would like to spend most of
[26:02] Speaker 1: my time doing is researching really. I mean, I, I
[26:05] Speaker 1: would consider myself to be a writer and I don't
[26:09] Speaker 1: have time to write.
[26:10] Speaker 4: And I like doing the longer projects.
[26:13] Speaker 1: And I like, you know, I've been, we've been trying
[26:14] Speaker 1: to make a video about money laundering for ages.
[26:17] Speaker 4: And the reason it's taken so long is because I'm
[26:19] Speaker 4: doing it.
[26:19] Speaker 1: So I've been researching it for like over a year, but,
[26:23] Speaker 1: but that means five minutes a week or, you know,
[26:26] Speaker 1: so that stuff's fun and I'd love to be able to, um,
[26:31] Speaker 1: have a whole day where no one's going to interrupt
[26:32] Speaker 1: me and I can do that.
[26:33] Speaker 4: But, um, that's, yeah, it's not really, it's not really
[26:36] Speaker 4: possible as a result of my job.
[26:39] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[26:40] Speaker 5: Um, one thing I wanted to touch on is, um,
[26:42] Speaker 5: tifo basketball um so was it something that you want
[26:48] Speaker 5: you planned on once you start to get bigger is
[26:50] Speaker 5: to obviously go into other sports and stuff like that
[26:53] Speaker 5: or and now obviously it's sort of discontinued a little
[26:56] Speaker 5: bit because of uh lack of basketball on um is
[26:59] Speaker 5: it something that you want to do in the future
[27:01] Speaker 5: is just spread yourself across all sports.
[27:05] Speaker 1: Yeah i mean the reason we started it in the
[27:07] Speaker 1: first place was just just to see whether the model
[27:10] Speaker 1: could be applied to another vertical um I think it can. Um,
[27:14] Speaker 1: ultimately we stopped, we actually stopped and started twice. The
[27:17] Speaker 1: first time we stopped is because we just didn't have
[27:19] Speaker 1: enough time. Uh, we stretched ourselves a little bit too thin. Um,
[27:23] Speaker 1: and we felt that it could be okay to leave
[27:25] Speaker 1: it for a couple of months and then come back
[27:26] Speaker 1: to it. And then we did the same thing again. Um,
[27:29] Speaker 1: and stopped for the same reason again, we didn't have time. Uh,
[27:34] Speaker 1: because as I say, we're, we're, we're a pretty small
[27:36] Speaker 1: team and that coincided with us going up to four
[27:38] Speaker 1: videos on the football channel a week from three. Um,
[27:41] Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, for the future, I don't know
[27:43] Speaker 1: exactly what our plans are at the moment. And obviously,
[27:45] Speaker 1: there are more people involved in those decisions now than
[27:47] Speaker 1: just us. So I don't know that those things are
[27:51] Speaker 1: conversations to be had. But ultimately, personally, I would be
[27:54] Speaker 1: excited by the idea of trying to cover other sports
[27:57] Speaker 1: as well. And I see no reason as to why
[27:59] Speaker 1: we couldn't do that in the future. Do you have
[28:01] Speaker 1: a suggestion for a sport that we should cover, Chris?
[28:04] Speaker 5: Well, I'll tell you what, we've got one coming up next.
[28:07] Speaker 5: We've got an interview with a Swedish handball player. So
[28:10] Speaker 5: maybe you could show Tifo handball.
[28:12] Speaker 2: I'm not sure what the stuff will be going on
[28:15] Speaker 2: for that.
[28:15] Speaker 5: But yeah, with the Athletic now being involved, do you
[28:19] Speaker 5: think that that will give you maybe more of a
[28:22] Speaker 5: scope to cover different sports?
[28:25] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[28:25] Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the reality is that these guys have.
[28:29] Speaker 1: Some of the best sports journalists in the world working
[28:32] Speaker 1: on all of those verticals. So, I mean, I cannot
[28:36] Speaker 1: think of a circumstance that would make it easier to
[28:38] Speaker 1: do that if that's something that we decide to do.
[28:42] Speaker 1: I mean, to have these people, you know, a text
[28:44] Speaker 1: or a phone call away, or even in ideal scenario,
[28:47] Speaker 1: having their actual input in terms of writing scripts and
[28:50] Speaker 1: stories and stuff like that for videos. Yeah, I don't
[28:54] Speaker 1: see how it could be done better in any other scenarios.
[28:59] Speaker 3: Is there any particular sports that you really want to
[29:01] Speaker 3: cover up? Anything that really sticks out to you? Yeah.
[29:05] Speaker 1: I mean, personally, I like basketball, which is one of
[29:08] Speaker 1: the reasons we chose that initially. I know that Alex
[29:12] Speaker 1: is keen to try hockey because I think there's a few...
[29:16] Speaker 1: I mean, Alex looks at sports in a kind of weird, dry-eyed,
[29:20] Speaker 1: robotic way where he's obsessed with stats and tactics and
[29:24] Speaker 1: he has no passion behind his eyes. So he gets
[29:27] Speaker 1: excited by metrics and there's a particular hockey metric. For
[29:30] Speaker 1: the life of me, I can't remember what it's called,
[29:32] Speaker 1: but he's been keen to make a video about that
[29:35] Speaker 1: for a while. It just doesn't fit on the TIFO
[29:37] Speaker 1: football channel. So I think he'd probably be keen on
[29:39] Speaker 1: doing hockey.
[29:42] Speaker 4: It's obscure, isn't it?
[29:43] Speaker 3: It's different as opposed to coming out and saying, yeah,
[29:46] Speaker 3: we'll cover boxing or we'll cover mixed martial arts or
[29:49] Speaker 3: something along those lines.
[29:49] Speaker 1: But it's an interesting idea for that reason. I mean,
[29:53] Speaker 1: it's a good point to raise. And this is part
[29:56] Speaker 1: of the reason why the athletic model is successful, because
[29:59] Speaker 1: what they do is they offer what might be seen
[30:02] Speaker 1: by the broader media as niche areas of interest, proper coverage.
[30:07] Speaker 4: You know, I'll go back to my example before.
[30:08] Speaker 1: Norwich City are not covered in the national media on
[30:12] Speaker 1: a regular basis for obvious reasons, right?
[30:14] Speaker 4: They don't have the resources or the time and no
[30:16] Speaker 4: one would read about it.
[30:17] Speaker 1: But there are thousands or tens of thousands of Norwich
[30:20] Speaker 1: City fans in Norwich who are absolutely dedicated to that team.
[30:23] Speaker 1: And likewise, hockey probably has a lower ceiling in comparison
[30:27] Speaker 1: to the US is bigger sports, but those fans are dedicated,
[30:32] Speaker 1: you know, and they'll, they'll sort of, they'll, they'll pay
[30:35] Speaker 1: to read things and they're desperate to read really good
[30:38] Speaker 1: writing and watch great videos. And I think if you can,
[30:41] Speaker 1: if you can kind of cover lots of bases in
[30:43] Speaker 1: one go, then that makes sense.
[30:46] Speaker 4: Absolutely.
[30:47] Speaker 3: For sure.
[30:49] Speaker 5: For you, what, what do you think is, the key
[30:56] Speaker 5: for you because you found your niche with tifa we
[30:59] Speaker 5: had um alfie from hitc on um as well who
[31:03] Speaker 5: was it was excellent and we've had uh we're gonna
[31:06] Speaker 5: have hamill from football daily as well aren't we um
[31:08] Speaker 5: yeah so what do you do you think that differentiating
[31:12] Speaker 5: yourself obviously you have your niche it's not the typical
[31:15] Speaker 5: youtube thing as has helped you gain an audience.
[31:21] Speaker 1: Yeah i think so i mean it's easier to stand
[31:24] Speaker 1: out when you're doing something that's different.
[31:26] Speaker 4: Um, I don't know. I mean, to be honest that, yeah,
[31:32] Speaker 4: there are a couple of different ways of looking at it.
[31:33] Speaker 4: One is that way. Um, another is that if you
[31:36] Speaker 4: make good stuff, people will watch it.
[31:37] Speaker 1: Uh, and if, if it can find an audience and
[31:39] Speaker 1: that's one of the things that YouTube, uh, used to
[31:43] Speaker 1: be better at now, it's slightly more, um, skewed in
[31:46] Speaker 1: the way that it sends your videos to your subscribers,
[31:49] Speaker 1: which is frustrating, but anyway, um, you know if you
[31:52] Speaker 1: can utilize a platform like youtube to to connect with
[31:55] Speaker 1: people who want to watch things and you make good
[31:57] Speaker 1: stuff people will watch it and and i think i
[32:01] Speaker 1: don't know i think if you're doing that in the
[32:03] Speaker 1: style that the um hitc are for example there's a
[32:07] Speaker 1: reason that they have a subscriber base and that's because
[32:10] Speaker 1: they put presumably a lot of effort into into the
[32:12] Speaker 1: videos that they make so i think there's space in
[32:14] Speaker 1: whatever department but if you can do that and stand
[32:18] Speaker 1: out and do something different, then I guess it makes
[32:20] Speaker 1: things easier.
[32:22] Speaker 4: I mean, to go back to what I was saying before, we.
[32:25] Speaker 1: Really only created the videos as a means to try
[32:28] Speaker 1: and get more out of written work that we already had.
[32:33] Speaker 1: So I don't think we were looking at it or
[32:34] Speaker 1: thinking about it in any other way other than that,
[32:39] Speaker 1: and how can we do this whilst getting around copyright
[32:42] Speaker 1: and IP and stuff like that. So we certainly didn't
[32:45] Speaker 1: approach it from a perspective of how can we be
[32:48] Speaker 1: different or how can we stand out?
[32:50] Speaker 4: I think that just sort of happened as a happy coincidence.
[32:55] Speaker 4: And I'm glad that it did. Absolutely.
[32:59] Speaker 2: For you personally, where do you see yourself heading? Is
[33:02] Speaker 2: it going to be continuing on this road, on this path?
[33:06] Speaker 5: Do you see yourself potentially changing your job? And what's
[33:11] Speaker 5: in the future for Joe Devine?
[33:13] Speaker 4: Definitely Hollywood.
[33:14] Speaker 1: I think I'm going to Hollywood.
[33:17] Speaker 4: I don't know.
[33:18] Speaker 1: I've got no firm footing for that, but I have
[33:20] Speaker 1: a feeling I'm definitely going to be in some big films,
[33:23] Speaker 1: maybe with Brad Pitt or something.
[33:25] Speaker 2: Got the voice, mate.
[33:26] Speaker 4: Got the voice. Thanks. I don't know, really.
[33:30] Speaker 1: I'm really happy to do my job now because it's fun.
[33:35] Speaker 4: And I like everyone I work with, which is great.
[33:37] Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm sure you guys will know
[33:39] Speaker 1: and anyone who's that's uh listening or watching will know
[33:42] Speaker 1: when you work with with people who are rubbish that's
[33:45] Speaker 1: rubbish so working with great people is uh i think
[33:49] Speaker 1: would be always be my my first aim regardless of
[33:52] Speaker 1: what the job was so i'm very lucky to be
[33:54] Speaker 1: able to do that um so i don't know i
[33:57] Speaker 1: don't have any grand plans um and i'd hate to
[34:01] Speaker 1: be you know presumptuous in that sense either because this
[34:04] Speaker 1: is it's a it's this difficult industry to, to, to
[34:07] Speaker 1: exist in. And we've been very, very lucky in the
[34:11] Speaker 1: way that, that, that TIFO has, has developed. And I've
[34:14] Speaker 1: been lucky as, as part of that. So I'm just
[34:16] Speaker 1: happy to carry on doing it for now.
[34:19] Speaker 4: And yeah, I don't know. Is that a good answer?
[34:22] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[34:23] Speaker 4: Well, we usually get the.
[34:26] Speaker 5: Same because a lot of people are very, very focused on,
[34:28] Speaker 5: on the goals that they set in the short term.
[34:30] Speaker 5: And I think I live by that myself as well.
[34:33] Speaker 5: I think there's no point in dreaming. Well, there is
[34:37] Speaker 5: a point in dreaming, but there's no point in aiming
[34:39] Speaker 5: high like that unridiculously.
[34:44] Speaker 2: But yeah, Hollywood's great.
[34:46] Speaker 4: Hassan, anything else for John?
[34:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's a question we've asked a couple of
[34:51] Speaker 3: people who work in the YouTube space. And I know
[34:53] Speaker 3: a lot of people who do content creation on YouTube
[34:55] Speaker 3: somewhat dread the title. But do you deem yourself as
[34:58] Speaker 3: a YouTuber personally? Inverted comments, of course.
[35:03] Speaker 4: No, I don't. I don't.
[35:06] Speaker 1: But for legitimate reasons, not because I'm embarrassed, although I
[35:10] Speaker 1: am embarrassed, but because we don't do vlogs and because
[35:15] Speaker 1: my face isn't on the video and, you know, maybe
[35:18] Speaker 1: my voice is a YouTuber, but I'm definitely not.
[35:22] Speaker 4: And I don't know. I think also what we do,
[35:24] Speaker 4: as you.
[35:26] Speaker 1: Guys have said already, is slightly different to what other
[35:28] Speaker 1: people are doing online or on YouTube at least.
[35:31] Speaker 4: So I think I look at us more as a,
[35:34] Speaker 4: I don't know, we're a film production company, really.
[35:40] Speaker 1: We make short films and they happen to live on YouTube,
[35:43] Speaker 1: which is a fantastic platform to reach a wide audience.
[35:46] Speaker 1: So I will say no, but I don't ever know
[35:49] Speaker 1: what to say when people ask me what I do,
[35:52] Speaker 1: which is a sort of slight social complication. Maybe I
[35:57] Speaker 1: should just start saying YouTuber.
[36:01] Speaker 4: Hollywood, actually.
[36:02] Speaker 5: Hollywood, that's the way forward. Anything else for Joe Haskell?
[36:11] Speaker 3: That was my last one.
[36:13] Speaker 2: I've got one more.
[36:15] Speaker 5: What would you advise a young Joe coming into the
[36:21] Speaker 5: industry with his sister as an illustrator alongside him?
[36:26] Speaker 2: What would you say to him now?
[36:30] Speaker 4: Oh, you've really made it personal to me by using
[36:32] Speaker 4: my name.
[36:33] Speaker 1: Don't be afraid of knockbacks, probably, because it's kind of
[36:40] Speaker 1: horrible when you first start.
[36:42] Speaker 4: I was thinking about this the other day, actually.
[36:44] Speaker 1: I remember when Alice and I started the Illustrated game
[36:48] Speaker 1: and we thought what we were doing was the coolest
[36:49] Speaker 1: thing and that no one was doing anything like it.
[36:52] Speaker 1: And maybe we should email the Guardian and we'll pitch
[36:55] Speaker 1: something to the Guardian doing a kind of illustrated football
[36:58] Speaker 1: column every week. And I remember writing the email to
[37:01] Speaker 1: whoever the editor was at the time after spending half
[37:03] Speaker 1: an hour trying to find their email address and just
[37:06] Speaker 1: being convinced at the end of it that they were
[37:09] Speaker 1: going to email back immediately and, you know, pay me
[37:11] Speaker 1: a hundred pounds a piece or something, which obviously never
[37:14] Speaker 1: happened because I cold called them and we had no
[37:17] Speaker 1: internet presence and, you know, we hadn't really done anything
[37:19] Speaker 1: to that point.
[37:20] Speaker 4: But I remember not.
[37:22] Speaker 1: Hearing back and feeling very dissuaded and feeling very.
[37:30] Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know, disappointed by it. And obviously we
[37:34] Speaker 4: didn't stop, but it felt a little bit like stopping.
[37:37] Speaker 4: It felt a little bit like a failure.
[37:38] Speaker 1: The reality is if you're going to do anything like this,
[37:42] Speaker 1: and I'm sure that probably includes journalism from other industries
[37:44] Speaker 1: as well, although I don't have any real experience with that,
[37:46] Speaker 1: people are going to say no more often than they
[37:48] Speaker 1: say yes. And any freelancer that is working is probably
[37:54] Speaker 1: hearing no 95% of the time. But it's the 5%
[37:57] Speaker 1: that say yes, that make the difference and that sustain them.
[38:02] Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, don't worry about knockbacks. Try not
[38:05] Speaker 1: to take rejection personally. It's not personal. When people don't
[38:09] Speaker 1: reply to your emails, it's not personal.
[38:11] Speaker 4: It's because they're busy and because they hate you. And yeah,
[38:17] Speaker 4: I don't know. I guess that would have been useful.
[38:20] Speaker 1: Although young Joe definitely would not have listened to old
[38:23] Speaker 1: Joe anyway.
[38:25] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[38:26] Speaker 5: Well, that concludes an excellent episode. Thank you very much, Joe,
[38:29] Speaker 5: for joining us.
[38:30] Speaker 4: Thank you. Thanks for having me. No problem.
[38:33] Speaker 5: And Hash, any content that's on the horizon?
[38:36] Speaker 3: Well, I was first going to say, if Joe's got
[38:38] Speaker 3: any social media that he wants to plug out to
[38:40] Speaker 3: us or anything like that, feel free to put that
[38:43] Speaker 3: out there now.
[38:44] Speaker 4: You can follow me on Twitter at....
[38:49] Speaker 1: I can't remember what it is, but just, you know,
[38:51] Speaker 1: search for, follow Tifo. Tifo's on Twitter. Tifofootball underscore, I
[38:54] Speaker 1: think it is.
[38:55] Speaker 4: Yeah. Go follow him.
[38:56] Speaker 2: Great content. Get subscribed. Get to a mill soon, I reckon.
[39:02] Speaker 2: That's on its way. Same for us, really. Drop the
[39:05] Speaker 2: subscribe button. Yeah, keep subscribing.
[39:08] Speaker 5: We've got some decent support in the last few weeks.
[39:11] Speaker 2: Keep us growing. Keep the family growing. That's what we
[39:13] Speaker 2: want to do. Close us out, Mr.
[39:15] Speaker 4: Kareem.
[39:16] Speaker 3: Well, especially to the 70% that are watching this that
[39:18] Speaker 3: aren't subscribed. Yeah, you bastards.
[39:21] Speaker 4: Subscribe. Anyway, thanks for watching.
[39:26] Speaker 3: We'll see you on the next one.

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