# Xabi Alonso to Chelsea_ Future of set pieces_ Scottish title _ Spying(M4A_128K)

An episode of [Footbal Beyond the Pitch](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6821032841), 21 Oct 2026, 1 h 04 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/75863338/xabi_alonso_to_chelsea_future_of_set_pieces_scottish_title_spying_m4a_128k.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:03] Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Tifo Football Podcast. I'm Joe
[0:08] Speaker 1: Devine and today I'm delighted to be joined by John McKenzie.
[0:12] Speaker 2: Hello. How do you decide which one you go with first?
[0:14] Speaker 2: Because I sometimes see you just like looking around the
[0:16] Speaker 2: room and then you make up.
[0:17] Speaker 1: Well, it's written here.
[0:18] Speaker 2: You just go on, you go on the order always.
[0:20] Speaker 1: Sometimes I like to go guess last. Okay. And then
[0:23] Speaker 1: beyond that, I like to go from left to right
[0:26] Speaker 1: in a sort of clockwise fashion. Do you know what
[0:28] Speaker 1: I mean?
[0:28] Speaker 2: Okay.
[0:28] Speaker 1: But we're jumping the shark here. Is it the shark
[0:31] Speaker 1: or the gun we're jumping?
[0:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you can jump both of them.
[0:33] Speaker 1: Jumping the shark was the Happy Days reference, right? Was it?
[0:37] Speaker 1: That was the point where, like, Happy Days became ridiculous
[0:39] Speaker 1: because Fonz is riding.
[0:41] Speaker 3: A shark or something.
[0:42] Speaker 1: Oh, so it's the gun I'm jumping.
[0:43] Speaker 3: It's being premature.
[0:44] Speaker 1: I mean, let's be honest, we've jumped the shark.
[0:46] Speaker 3: An example of jumping the shark is interrupting the intro
[0:50] Speaker 3: immediately every single time.
[0:52] Speaker 1: Well, then the shark was jumped before we even began.
[0:54] Speaker 3: We've done it.
[0:55] Speaker 1: There it is. Now, JJ Ball's also here.
[0:57] Speaker 3: Hello.
[0:57] Speaker 1: All right, how's it going?
[0:58] Speaker 3: Yes, it's not a Monday.
[1:00] Speaker 1: It's not a Monday.
[1:00] Speaker 3: It's a Thursday.
[1:01] Speaker 1: And you're in a different chair.
[1:02] Speaker 4: Yes.
[1:03] Speaker 1: What's it like to sit over there?
[1:05] Speaker 3: It's entirely different.
[1:06] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[1:06] Speaker 3: I feel more powerful and.
[1:10] Speaker 1: You can see Steve.
[1:11] Speaker 3: I can see Steve rather than being in the shot
[1:13] Speaker 3: every time it cuts to Steve.
[1:16] Speaker 1: So those are some of my favourite scenes because half
[1:18] Speaker 1: the time you look so disgusted with what Steve is saying.
[1:21] Speaker 3: Well, normally it's like, well, as you know, I not
[1:24] Speaker 3: on purpose zone out from time to time.
[1:26] Speaker 1: And so often I'm not listening. You're just like this.
[1:29] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[1:29] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, you were here today.
[1:32] Speaker 3: Hello.
[1:32] Speaker 1: There he is. And also we have a Tifo football
[1:35] Speaker 1: podcast debut, a debutante in his debut. He's football data
[1:40] Speaker 1: journalist for the Times of London. That's right, the Times
[1:43] Speaker 1: of London. It's Hamza Khaliq Lunat.
[1:46] Speaker 3: Hello, everyone.
[1:47] Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on.
[1:48] Speaker 1: How's it going? You okay?
[1:49] Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really excited to be here.
[1:50] Speaker 1: Did you like that round of applause?
[1:52] Speaker 3: It was really generous.
[1:52] Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
[1:53] Speaker 1: Did you feel that suited your performance today?
[1:55] Speaker 2: I think that.
[1:57] Speaker 4: I didn't deserve that. I didn't deserve you teeing me
[1:59] Speaker 4: up for two episodes and we've got a new guest. Sorry,
[2:02] Speaker 4: I don't do well with pressure.
[2:03] Speaker 1: That's nice. I thought he was very good. I enjoyed it.
[2:05] Speaker 3: Did you get him a debut badge like they do
[2:06] Speaker 3: in the World Cup now?
[2:08] Speaker 1: No, no. I've got one, but I'm not going to
[2:09] Speaker 1: give it to him.
[2:10] Speaker 3: Will he appear in the collector's card editions that we release?
[2:12] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, for sure. But that's because of the hyper-financialisation
[2:14] Speaker 1: of FIFA football. Correct. There's nothing you can do about that.
[2:17] Speaker 1: That's a throw forward to something that is discussed later. Now,
[2:20] Speaker 1: here's what... Oh, and also Steve Hankey's here.
[2:23] Speaker 2: Hello!
[2:23] Speaker 1: There he is. It took him a while to get
[2:25] Speaker 1: his microphone to work there.
[2:26] Speaker 2: Now, where do we start?
[2:27] Speaker 1: Well, we start all the way up in Scotland, don't we?
[2:30] Speaker 1: Where something was afoot last night. Huge events occurred in
[2:35] Speaker 1: Scottish football and have set up what JJ described as
[2:38] Speaker 1: what could be the most historic game in Scottish football history.
[2:42] Speaker 2: That's right.
[2:43] Speaker 1: This Saturday. Now, of course, we're referring to the fact
[2:46] Speaker 1: that that Celtic got a 98-minute penalty.
[2:50] Speaker 3: A very late penalty.
[2:51] Speaker 1: A very late penalty that was somewhat controversial, awarded as
[2:54] Speaker 1: a result of VAR last night against Motherwell. And the
[2:57] Speaker 1: implications of that on the Scottish Premiership title, we talk
[3:00] Speaker 1: about that first. We then move on to Spygate in
[3:04] Speaker 1: the Championship. God, it's a week of news, isn't it?
[3:06] Speaker 1: We move on to Spygate, where we go on to
[3:08] Speaker 1: define what we think spying is. And JJ gives away
[3:11] Speaker 1: the fact that he is a spy.
[3:14] Speaker 3: I couldn't say if I am.
[3:16] Speaker 1: Except you said so.
[3:17] Speaker 3: I think it's good of me.
[3:19] Speaker 2: I think that's pretty much number one rule of spying,
[3:21] Speaker 2: isn't it? Don't tell anyone you're a spy.
[3:24] Speaker 3: Well, I mean, people who aren't in the spy club
[3:26] Speaker 3: would think that.
[3:26] Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways, maybe it's the best defence
[3:30] Speaker 1: is a huge offence.
[3:31] Speaker 3: I would have a great... Who would believe I'm a spy?
[3:35] Speaker 1: That's true. I mean, yeah, and when it's discovered in
[3:38] Speaker 1: the future that all the clips in the documentary about
[3:40] Speaker 1: it will be, he kept telling us that he was
[3:42] Speaker 1: a spy. On that weird shit podcast, he just kept
[3:45] Speaker 1: saying he was a spy. You know, the one that
[3:47] Speaker 1: jumped the shark.
[3:48] Speaker 4: So you're saying the Southampton guy could actually just not
[3:50] Speaker 4: be the actual spy and the real spy is.
[3:53] Speaker 1: Well, have you noticed that despite JJ being 40 years old,
[3:55] Speaker 1: he does actually look like a 16-year-old. So, you know,
[3:58] Speaker 1: he could fit the bill in this instance, couldn't he?
[4:00] Speaker 3: How do you know I'm not?
[4:01] Speaker 1: Well, indeed. I mean, I think I've known you for
[4:03] Speaker 1: long enough now that You would have been 10 when
[4:06] Speaker 1: we met. You see me sink enough pints like a
[4:09] Speaker 1: top lad. Anyway, we also played a rondo. Who shall
[4:14] Speaker 1: take Kaya's crown? We discovered today, will it be the
[4:17] Speaker 1: sweet prince of the rondo, JJ? It's probably me. It's
[4:20] Speaker 1: not JJ. But also, it was very hard today. Another one.
[4:24] Speaker 1: I made it very hard. How about that? And another one.
[4:27] Speaker 1: You said that like a basketball commentator, Steve.
[4:29] Speaker 3: And another one.
[4:30] Speaker 1: After the rondo, we try and talk about Chelsea, but
[4:33] Speaker 1: John's febrile mood delayed. Oh, it delays that significantly.
[4:36] Speaker 2: I think Steve pronounces that word differently.
[4:38] Speaker 1: He's been walking around saying febrile all morning, which could
[4:42] Speaker 1: be true. But I mean, everyone in here has heard
[4:44] Speaker 1: it as febrile. Did you say February? Yes, I say.
[4:50] Speaker 1: That's what they say. I think that's a very posh
[4:52] Speaker 1: Scottish accent would pronounce it like that, wouldn't it?. I
[4:56] Speaker 1: think of, what's her name that plays Professor McGonagall in
[5:00] Speaker 1: Harry Potter.
[5:01] Speaker 2: Maggie Smith.
[5:02] Speaker 1: Maggie Smith, who has that kind of posh... Goddresser.
[5:05] Speaker 3: Oh, young February.
[5:07] Speaker 1: January, February.
[5:09] Speaker 3: January, February. Oh, darlings. There it is.
[5:12] Speaker 1: Yeah, there it is. Anyway. No longer with us, of course,
[5:14] Speaker 1: Maggie Smith. God bless Maggie Smith. What else did we say? Oh, yes.
[5:17] Speaker 1: We did talk about Chelsea. We explored the broader compatibility
[5:20] Speaker 1: of Xavi Alonso with that young Chelsea squad. And then
[5:23] Speaker 1: we get into a very interesting conversation about set pieces.
[5:26] Speaker 1: And Hamza explores how much they're permanently changing The game
[5:29] Speaker 1: that we all love. He called it a thesis as well.
[5:31] Speaker 4: He called it a thesis.
[5:33] Speaker 1: Very nice. And it was a thesis, but he called
[5:36] Speaker 1: it a thesis. And that's what matters. That's how you
[5:39] Speaker 1: get a job at the Times of London, children. Call
[5:41] Speaker 1: it a thesis. Now, that was quite rude, wasn't it?
[5:44] Speaker 2: That's fine.
[5:45] Speaker 1: Good, good. Anyway, that was the whole show. That was it.
[5:48] Speaker 1: Also worth saying, did I miss anything, Steve?
[5:51] Speaker 3: No.
[5:51] Speaker 2: No, good.
[5:52] Speaker 1: Worth saying, we've got Ring for Analysis on Saturday. We're
[5:54] Speaker 1: doing a live stream on Sunday, which later in the show,
[5:56] Speaker 1: you'll realise that John and I discovered in the moment,
[5:58] Speaker 1: it's just us. So that's fun. And also worth saying
[6:01] Speaker 1: that next Tuesday, we'll be back. Usually we have a
[6:05] Speaker 1: Monday show, but we'll be released. This is confusing. We
[6:08] Speaker 1: normally release it on a Tuesday morning, but now it'll
[6:10] Speaker 1: be released later on the Tuesday. That's because we have
[6:13] Speaker 1: to record Tuesday morning because Arsenal play Monday night, of course.
[6:16] Speaker 1: They play against Burnley and the title race could be
[6:19] Speaker 1: a swinging. Although... It also turns out that Man City
[6:23] Speaker 1: play on the Tuesday night. And do you know what?
[6:26] Speaker 1: It's kind of a nightmare for us at the moment.
[6:28] Speaker 1: We're just sort of moving things around to try and
[6:30] Speaker 1: make it fit. Who knows what's going to happen?
[6:31] Speaker 3: Just live always streaming everything you do like the big
[6:34] Speaker 3: streamers do, you know?
[6:35] Speaker 1: That's true. Almost as though we're talking about what we're
[6:38] Speaker 1: going to do during the World Cup.
[6:40] Speaker 3: The World Cup.
[6:41] Speaker 1: You've done that thing where you've... If you work with Americans,
[6:44] Speaker 1: you will start saying World Cup where they emphasize world
[6:47] Speaker 1: instead of cup. And they don't say... They refuse to
[6:49] Speaker 1: say the... It's interesting, isn't it?
[6:50] Speaker 2: Correct.
[6:51] Speaker 3: I've noticed this.
[6:52] Speaker 2: Hey, guys. You want to do some.
[6:53] Speaker 1: Planning for a World Cup? And I do. And we have.
[6:57] Speaker 1: And I'll tell you about it a little bit closer
[6:58] Speaker 1: to the time. That's it. In theory, by the way,
[7:01] Speaker 1: Colin will be on that Tuesday show. But I haven't
[7:03] Speaker 1: asked him yet if he can move to Tuesday. So
[7:06] Speaker 1: if he's not on it, that's because he couldn't move
[7:09] Speaker 1: to Tuesday. Enjoy the show. Well, where else to begin,
[7:14] Speaker 1: of course, than with Scotland? Because good Lord. It was
[7:18] Speaker 1: exciting last night, wasn't it? It was exciting, JJ. And
[7:21] Speaker 1: then our hearts were stolen away by evil. What happened?
[7:27] Speaker 1: Is that too heavy an editorial tone?
[7:28] Speaker 3: I think you've not gone far enough.
[7:30] Speaker 1: Okay.
[7:30] Speaker 3: I think try a stronger take.
[7:34] Speaker 1: Would you like me to set this up for you?
[7:35] Speaker 1: Because what Steve's written here, I can say the Scottish
[7:37] Speaker 1: title race will go down to the final day. That
[7:40] Speaker 1: was after the events of last night. Hearts still top
[7:42] Speaker 1: the table by a point. So Celtic will have to
[7:44] Speaker 1: win to stop hearts claiming the title. They play each other.
[7:47] Speaker 1: on the final day.
[7:48] Speaker 2: Correct.
[7:49] Speaker 1: The Edinburgh side would have a three-point gap, had a
[7:52] Speaker 1: 99th minute penalty not been awarded to Celtic, which gave
[7:56] Speaker 1: the boys.
[7:57] Speaker 2: A 2-3 victory.
[7:59] Speaker 1: I've read that weirdly. A 3-2 victory.
[8:02] Speaker 3: That's fine.
[8:02] Speaker 1: Now, to say it was a controversial decision massively understates things, JJ,
[8:06] Speaker 1: doesn't it? And perhaps even evil understates.
[8:08] Speaker 2: Yes.
[8:08] Speaker 3: Well, I don't think any of us really saw a
[8:10] Speaker 3: world in which Celtic would be given a late penalty
[8:12] Speaker 3: to help them in any sort of title race. That
[8:14] Speaker 3: doesn't happen usually.
[8:15] Speaker 1: No.
[8:16] Speaker 3: To either them or the other team that tends to
[8:17] Speaker 3: win titles in Scotland. So nobody saw this coming. That's
[8:20] Speaker 3: one thing that makes it interesting. Hearts were great in
[8:24] Speaker 3: their game. They went 3-0 up. It could come down
[8:26] Speaker 3: to goal difference. And had Celtic lost last night, then
[8:32] Speaker 3: Hearts would have won the league. So they were very excited.
[8:34] Speaker 3: But then, of course, something we didn't expect comes along
[8:37] Speaker 3: and they managed to find a penalty in there.
[8:39] Speaker 1: Can I just check? It still technically would have been
[8:42] Speaker 1: possible for Celtic to win had they then hammered Hearts
[8:44] Speaker 1: on the final day, right?
[8:46] Speaker 3: Yeah, they wanted like six or seven goals or something
[8:48] Speaker 3: like that.
[8:50] Speaker 2: It was only three.
[8:51] Speaker 1: Because Hart's goal difference comes down as they... Six goals difference.
[8:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, seven goals difference at one point, right? Yeah. Was
[8:57] Speaker 2: it seven? No, six goals difference. But if you score
[8:59] Speaker 2: a goal, yours goes up and theirs goes down. So
[9:02] Speaker 2: you only need half of it. So it's three. But
[9:04] Speaker 2: then if it goes.
[9:05] Speaker 3: Oh, now I understand.
[9:06] Speaker 1: But, you know, that would be saying they'll beat the
[9:09] Speaker 1: team top of the league.
[9:10] Speaker 2: It's still a big... Yeah, it's a three goal difference.
[9:12] Speaker 1: It's still big.
[9:13] Speaker 3: They've got better hearts. Their hearts are really good.
[9:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[9:16] Speaker 3: And, of course, my next point.
[9:18] Speaker 1: The maths has thrown him completely.
[9:20] Speaker 2: I can see through his eyes.
[9:22] Speaker 3: I just don't think it's a penalty. And the problem
[9:25] Speaker 3: is that it feels like an awful lot of the time,
[9:27] Speaker 3: if you don't support one of these big clubs, these
[9:29] Speaker 3: decisions seem to go against your club. Like, when you
[9:32] Speaker 3: watch it back, it does hit his hand, but.
[9:36] Speaker 1: Does it?
[9:37] Speaker 3: It does, but also there's... You can see that when
[9:42] Speaker 3: he jumps up, the defender next to him pushes his
[9:45] Speaker 3: arm in front of his face. Therefore, it's not really,
[9:47] Speaker 3: it isn't a non-natural, but it's not his fault.
[9:51] Speaker 2: I think also on top of this, isn't it just
[9:53] Speaker 2: the case that if you stop the ball with your
[9:55] Speaker 2: arm and it would hit a legal part of your body,
[9:58] Speaker 2: if it didn't hit your arm, then they just don't
[9:59] Speaker 2: give it.
[9:59] Speaker 4: If you.
[10:00] Speaker 2: if you have your hands close together and the ball's
[10:02] Speaker 2: coming towards your chest and it hits your arms it's
[10:04] Speaker 2: not given as a penalty because i mean i guess
[10:06] Speaker 2: your hands aren't in an unnatural position but like in
[10:08] Speaker 2: the same way if the ball hits your hand before
[10:10] Speaker 2: it hits your head you're not stopping it from hitting
[10:12] Speaker 2: a legal part of your body in which case it
[10:15] Speaker 2: probably would get let.
[10:15] Speaker 3: Go Basically, there's been absolutely no noise about this whatsoever
[10:18] Speaker 3: from fans of any clubs related to it whatsoever.
[10:21] Speaker 1: No one's talking about it. But it is setting up
[10:23] Speaker 1: what will be an enormous game. How big is this
[10:26] Speaker 1: game on Saturday? And tell us who it's between.
[10:28] Speaker 3: It's the most enormous game that's ever happened.
[10:30] Speaker 1: Wow.
[10:31] Speaker 3: Celtic are at home against Hearts.
[10:33] Speaker 1: Oh, Celtic are at home.
[10:34] Speaker 3: Yes. If Hearts draw, they win the whole thing. It's
[10:40] Speaker 3: not happened since, as we've discussed.
[10:42] Speaker 1: Ages.
[10:43] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[10:43] Speaker 3: It doesn't happen. I've not seen it since I've been alive.
[10:46] Speaker 1: Would you call it historic?
[10:48] Speaker 3: I would call it an historic event.
[10:49] Speaker 4: Right, yeah.
[10:50] Speaker 1: Do you know, I did that the other day, not
[10:52] Speaker 1: the other day, the other year. I was on the
[10:54] Speaker 1: holiday in the south of England somewhere with my friend
[10:56] Speaker 1: who used to be a sub-editor and I made a
[10:58] Speaker 1: comment describing something as an historic and he told me
[11:01] Speaker 1: that is a big myth. It's bullshit.
[11:03] Speaker 3: I wrote a song called that once.
[11:04] Speaker 1: Really?
[11:05] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[11:06] Speaker 1: So apparently you're supposed to say ahistoric. That's fine. Ahistoric
[11:08] Speaker 1: is absolutely fine.
[11:09] Speaker 3: Ahistoric.
[11:10] Speaker 4: Not ahistorical because that would.
[11:11] Speaker 1: Be Ahistorical would be historic that isn't one or the other.
[11:16] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[11:16] Speaker 1: No, it's non-historical, ahistorical, isn't it? That was just a joke.
[11:20] Speaker 3: I know we need to move on and talk about
[11:20] Speaker 3: other things, but this is the only time I've ever
[11:22] Speaker 3: remembered that this story happened to me when I was
[11:24] Speaker 3: at school once. We're in a big assembly, you know,
[11:26] Speaker 3: in the assembly hall. And then the teacher came out
[11:28] Speaker 3: in front of the.
[11:29] Speaker 1: Were you sitting in chairs or on the floor?
[11:31] Speaker 3: We're all sitting in chairs in the hall. The whole school,
[11:33] Speaker 3: the primary school, you know, is sitting there. And the
[11:35] Speaker 3: head teacher, she comes out. And she's doing a thing
[11:38] Speaker 3: for all. It's like an end of year thing. And
[11:40] Speaker 3: she says, what do you.
[11:41] Speaker 1: Will you do it in her voice?
[11:42] Speaker 3: I'll try to. I'm trying to remember the set up.
[11:44] Speaker 3: This might not be very funny at all.
[11:45] Speaker 2: No, no.
[11:45] Speaker 1: I think it's funny already. Oh, good.
[11:47] Speaker 3: She comes out in front of all the students on
[11:49] Speaker 3: the stage. And she's got a bag. And she says, well, students, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[11:54] Speaker 3: It's the end of the year. What do you think
[11:56] Speaker 3: I have in my bag? And out of nowhere, some
[12:00] Speaker 3: kid in the front row goes.
[12:01] Speaker 2: Ah, eagle.
[12:01] Speaker 3: Eagle. I remember that and I think about that all
[12:06] Speaker 3: the time.
[12:07] Speaker 1: That's come to mind because he didn't say an eagle.
[12:09] Speaker 3: He said a eagle.
[12:10] Speaker 1: A eagle. First of all, he says a eagle. Secondly,
[12:14] Speaker 1: why would she have an eagle? I wish she did.
[12:16] Speaker 4: Dumbass.
[12:17] Speaker 1: What did she have? An eagle.
[12:18] Speaker 3: I mean, in my head, a eagle.
[12:20] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[12:21] Speaker 1: You don't even remember what it was.
[12:22] Speaker 3: I don't remember. I'll ask my friend. Maybe he'll remember.
[12:24] Speaker 1: That's a perfect example of how memory works. Anyway, we
[12:26] Speaker 1: must move on. And I'm aware the last time I
[12:29] Speaker 1: said we were talking about Scottish football and I said
[12:31] Speaker 1: we must move on, I got a lot of hatred
[12:33] Speaker 1: in the comments for how quickly I moved us on.
[12:36] Speaker 1: I want the Scottish people who are upset that we're
[12:38] Speaker 1: not talking about this longer to know it's Steve Hankey.
[12:40] Speaker 2: Who's insisting that I move on. It is Steve Hankey.
[12:43] Speaker 1: If you want to get upset with someone, get upset
[12:46] Speaker 1: with Anne earlier. He said earlier, he said he hates
[12:48] Speaker 1: Scotland as well. Did you hear that?
[12:49] Speaker 3: I did hear that.
[12:50] Speaker 1: I think he said it for your benefit.
[12:52] Speaker 3: He was sitting there, he walked in, he's like, I
[12:53] Speaker 3: hate all of yous.
[12:54] Speaker 1: That's right.
[12:55] Speaker 3: Do you know, the game on Saturday, so at 12.30.
[12:59] Speaker 1: That's the big game. That's when it's going to.
[13:01] Speaker 3: Hearts v Celtic could be like one of the most
[13:03] Speaker 3: historic games of Scottish football history.
[13:05] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[13:05] Speaker 3: I have no idea who'll win it. It will be amazing.
[13:08] Speaker 3: If you've never watched Scottish football before, watch Celtic versus Hearts.
[13:11] Speaker 1: And there's nothing on at that time to clash with
[13:14] Speaker 1: it in the Premier League, right? Because all those games
[13:16] Speaker 1: are on Sunday because the FA Cup final is at 3pm.
[13:18] Speaker 1: This game's at 12.30. So you can watch it. I'm
[13:21] Speaker 1: sure there's nothing else going on.
[13:23] Speaker 3: But don't bother because it's... Wow. If you DM me,
[13:28] Speaker 3: I'll tell you where he lives.
[13:29] Speaker 1: Something got cut, and it was Steve. It was Steve Hankey.
[13:32] Speaker 2: Incredible.
[13:33] Speaker 1: Now, from one thing that got cut to another that
[13:36] Speaker 1: I bet people wish could be cut, a photograph has
[13:39] Speaker 1: emerged of the Southampton analyst. Bless the Southampton. Now, this was,
[13:45] Speaker 1: of course, I'm talking about Spygate, the new Spygate. Yesterday,
[13:48] Speaker 1: what happened? A photograph emerged of the Southampton analyst, who
[13:52] Speaker 1: I think later was identified as William Salton. allegedly observing
[13:57] Speaker 1: Middlesbrough's training session last Thursday. So this was what all
[14:00] Speaker 1: the furore was around. There were some accusations that an
[14:04] Speaker 1: analyst from Southampton was caught observing and filming Middlesbrough's training
[14:08] Speaker 1: session before the first playoff game in the championship.
[14:11] Speaker 3: Wearing a big jacket and some glasses and a moustache.
[14:13] Speaker 1: Yes, and looking through two holes in the newspaper. No,
[14:15] Speaker 1: he didn't even try them on.
[14:16] Speaker 4: It was just jeans, right?
[14:18] Speaker 1: It was jeans.
[14:18] Speaker 2: No dark-coloured trousers, no mask.
[14:21] Speaker 1: He paid with his card for the coffee. Cash, bro.
[14:24] Speaker 2: Come on, man.
[14:25] Speaker 1: Middlesbrough also have details of a credit card used by the, quote,
[14:28] Speaker 1: spy at the golf club adjacent to Rockcliffe. Now, this
[14:31] Speaker 1: photograph was originally published by the Daily Mail. The Athletic
[14:34] Speaker 1: also obtained it. It shows a young man. If you
[14:37] Speaker 1: haven't seen it, you really should. It made me laugh
[14:40] Speaker 1: for about four minutes, I think. It shows a young
[14:42] Speaker 1: man standing half covered by a tree.
[14:45] Speaker 2: And that's doing a lot of heavy lifting, isn't it?
[14:48] Speaker 2: He's halfway behind a tree. It's not even half. It's
[14:50] Speaker 2: like quarter, I would say, quarter. The orientation of the
[14:53] Speaker 2: phone as well.
[14:54] Speaker 4: It's not like he's hiding behind the tree. He's got
[14:55] Speaker 4: the camera on the tree site.
[14:58] Speaker 2: Flip it round and then hide.
[15:00] Speaker 1: Behind the tree.
[15:01] Speaker 3: What is he doing?
[15:02] Speaker 1: Yeah, he's filming from behind a tree, basically. So he's
[15:04] Speaker 1: been named as William Salt. He's a member of Tonda
[15:07] Speaker 1: Eckert's backroom analysis team. He's a young guy. I mean,
[15:11] Speaker 1: I feel very sorry for him. Because I cannot imagine
[15:14] Speaker 1: a scenario in which he has taken it of his
[15:16] Speaker 1: own accord. That would be my speculation to go and
[15:19] Speaker 1: do this. So, you know, now that there's a photo
[15:23] Speaker 1: of him halfway behind a tree in the Daily Mail,
[15:26] Speaker 1: I feel like it's going to be difficult for him
[15:27] Speaker 1: to work.
[15:27] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's important to point out that he's
[15:29] Speaker 3: a young lad.
[15:30] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[15:30] Speaker 3: And, like, you're allowed to make mistakes.
[15:32] Speaker 1: Sure.
[15:33] Speaker 3: And he's a young lad.
[15:34] Speaker 1: But it's just that the photo's very funny.
[15:37] Speaker 3: No, of course. Yeah, that's the thing. That's that. But then,
[15:39] Speaker 3: you know... Yeah, you don't know how anyone will react
[15:42] Speaker 3: to these things.
[15:43] Speaker 2: The big question for me is like, at what point
[15:45] Speaker 2: does spying cease to be spying when you're making so
[15:48] Speaker 2: little effort to be hidden, right?
[15:50] Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say before you say that,
[15:52] Speaker 1: that the photo that we're talking about will form part
[15:55] Speaker 1: of the evidence Middlesbrough provide to... the English Football League,
[15:58] Speaker 1: as they seek to have the greatest possible sporting sanction
[16:01] Speaker 1: imposed on Southampton, including expulsion from the playoffs. So that's what,
[16:06] Speaker 1: at the moment, they're trying to move things along quickly
[16:09] Speaker 1: because the playoff final is just around the corner. And
[16:11] Speaker 1: I think right now they aren't able to sell tickets
[16:14] Speaker 1: to the game.
[16:14] Speaker 3: Well, I googled, what is the punishment for spying? And
[16:16] Speaker 3: it says imprisonment of up to eight years.
[16:18] Speaker 1: Oh, good Lord.
[16:20] Speaker 3: So that's all that's stamped in players.
[16:22] Speaker 1: That's the journalism done, guys.
[16:24] Speaker 2: But again, I think, is this spying? If you're just
[16:26] Speaker 2: standing out by a tree?
[16:27] Speaker 1: I mean, it is spying. I mean, I don't know whether, like,
[16:32] Speaker 1: How successful the spying is is a qualifier of whether
[16:36] Speaker 1: it's spying or not. Hang on, Jill.
[16:37] Speaker 3: I'm just going on Wisecat now to watch how Middlesbrough
[16:39] Speaker 3: play for a bit. Uh-oh, Jill!
[16:42] Speaker 1: But they're not filming the specific training session. The argument
[16:46] Speaker 1: here is that they're filming the specific training sessions ahead
[16:48] Speaker 1: of a match so that they can gain some advantage. Look,
[16:53] Speaker 1: To whatever extent the advantage is there, I don't know.
[16:56] Speaker 1: Only coaches will be able to tell. And obviously a
[16:58] Speaker 1: team that loses in a game like that is then
[17:00] Speaker 1: going to want to use anything possible.
[17:01] Speaker 2: Cheating is cheating regardless of how useful it proves to be.
[17:05] Speaker 1: That's my point. It doesn't really matter what the result.
[17:07] Speaker 3: Of it is.
[17:08] Speaker 4: Seemingly, some types of cheating are a lot worse than others.
[17:12] Speaker 4: What I find interesting is that a young man with
[17:15] Speaker 4: a camera gets, well, a club is seeking to get
[17:18] Speaker 4: maybe a points deduction or expulsion from a playoff. Well,
[17:22] Speaker 4: other forms of what you would consider cheating in the
[17:26] Speaker 4: Premier League are not treated with anywhere near as much severity. If,
[17:30] Speaker 4: for example, we take Chelsea's settlement, and I'm not accusing
[17:34] Speaker 4: them of cheating. What I'm saying is that they settled
[17:37] Speaker 4: with the Premier League when they found out there were
[17:39] Speaker 4: some financial irregularities when Roman Abramovich was owner. And with
[17:43] Speaker 4: respect to some transfer payments for players, that you would
[17:48] Speaker 4: assume is a Bit worse than a guy having a
[17:51] Speaker 4: recording a training session.
[17:52] Speaker 1: Sure. But there's no funny photo.
[17:54] Speaker 4: That's true. Or you could say is some of the
[18:00] Speaker 4: stuff that Manchester City have been accused of a bit
[18:02] Speaker 4: worse than that.
[18:03] Speaker 1: Although I think we should again make it... Accused. Yeah,
[18:06] Speaker 1: I know you're saying this already, but I think we
[18:07] Speaker 1: should make it very clear that there is no proof
[18:11] Speaker 1: of cheating in that case so far.
[18:13] Speaker 4: What I am specifically trying to draw attention to is
[18:15] Speaker 4: the sanction. Sure. And you would assume that those things
[18:19] Speaker 4: would have a higher sanction than the one that Middlesbrough
[18:24] Speaker 4: are seeking against Southampton. But, yeah.
[18:29] Speaker 1: In theory, you could say, though... that the outcome of
[18:32] Speaker 1: one specific game, particularly a game in the playoffs, which
[18:36] Speaker 1: could be so valuable, you could argue that if you
[18:39] Speaker 1: believed that the result of the spying gave Southampton a
[18:45] Speaker 1: real advantage that they then used to win the game,
[18:48] Speaker 1: then the possible reward for that is, you know, so
[18:51] Speaker 1: significant that the result of that cheating could be arguably more.
[18:55] Speaker 3: Eight years in prison.
[18:56] Speaker 1: Eight years in prison.
[18:57] Speaker 2: Presumably as well. I mean, this came out before they
[19:00] Speaker 2: played their games, right?
[19:01] Speaker 4: So.
[19:01] Speaker 2: And it will have, obviously it disrupts your preparation and the, the, the,
[19:06] Speaker 2: the sort of more psychological elements are going to be there.
[19:08] Speaker 2: But by the time they played the game, I doubt
[19:10] Speaker 2: there was, because it would be things like set piece
[19:12] Speaker 2: routines and like things like that, that they'll be looking at.
[19:15] Speaker 2: They'll change their set piece routines and yes, it will
[19:16] Speaker 2: be disruptive and they'll probably have less time to do it.
[19:18] Speaker 2: And they would argue that their new set piece routines
[19:21] Speaker 2: would probably be worse off for it.
[19:22] Speaker 1: Um, but i don't know when they practice in like
[19:26] Speaker 1: their formation with the with the 11 they might.
[19:28] Speaker 2: Yeah but i don't think i think that they would
[19:30] Speaker 2: know they would know roughly what was going to happen
[19:32] Speaker 2: beforehand um but either either way it's again like we've
[19:36] Speaker 2: we've been talking for what half an hour we've not
[19:39] Speaker 2: actually talked about any football yet and i think this
[19:41] Speaker 2: is the thing that frustrates me about all of this
[19:43] Speaker 2: stuff it's like all of this is like we've talked
[19:45] Speaker 2: about var we've talked about these people spying and it
[19:49] Speaker 2: feels as though football has just become not about the.
[19:52] Speaker 1: Actual- Did you see the photo though, Jon?
[19:54] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[19:54] Speaker 2: And the photo is funny.
[19:55] Speaker 1: The photo is very funny.
[19:55] Speaker 2: I get it. And that's not a criticism of our
[19:58] Speaker 2: running order. It's just more, this is what football has
[20:00] Speaker 2: become now, right?
[20:00] Speaker 3: It's- It's wrestling.
[20:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's about the narratives and the sideshow stuff rather
[20:05] Speaker 2: than it is about what's going on on the pitch.
[20:07] Speaker 2: And I think it's a shame, right? There's some really
[20:09] Speaker 2: good stuff that came out from some of Borough's coaching
[20:12] Speaker 2: staff where they said, we work really hard across the
[20:15] Speaker 2: course of a 46-game season in order to get our
[20:18] Speaker 2: players into the best possible position to platform them and
[20:22] Speaker 2: do well in a league. And that's what sport's about, right?
[20:25] Speaker 2: It's about working hard. It's about it's about two things,
[20:28] Speaker 2: I think, overcoming obstacles on the pitch as you come
[20:31] Speaker 2: up against them. But also it's about, it should be
[20:34] Speaker 2: about showcasing a celebration of like what humans can achieve.
[20:38] Speaker 2: I mean, this is elite sport, right? So this is
[20:40] Speaker 2: the football that's above the level that we all play.
[20:43] Speaker 2: And we should be looking at that as something which
[20:45] Speaker 2: is worth celebrating and saying, you know, isn't it great?
[20:48] Speaker 2: Look what people can do if they put the time,
[20:50] Speaker 2: money and effort into this. That's what I kind of
[20:53] Speaker 2: miss about football. I want to get back to, and
[20:55] Speaker 2: maybe I'm just being like naive, Maybe I'm just being
[20:57] Speaker 2: like overly romantic, but I think we've lost that element
[21:00] Speaker 2: of like, there's something here that should be celebrated. There's
[21:03] Speaker 2: something here that is meaningful.
[21:05] Speaker 1: What were you going to say Hamza?
[21:08] Speaker 4: I was just going to say that spying is genuinely
[21:11] Speaker 4: consideration that managers have a lot, especially at international level,
[21:15] Speaker 4: but also in continental competitions. It's one reason why many
[21:19] Speaker 4: clubs prefer, let's say before Champions League, Europa League match
[21:22] Speaker 4: to train at home rather than train at the opposition stadium.
[21:25] Speaker 4: They are, very, very paranoid about cameras being at that
[21:28] Speaker 4: stadium that the opposition team could look through. And it's
[21:31] Speaker 4: the same with international managers as well. They will largely prefer,
[21:34] Speaker 4: and you'll see this during the World Cup, the team
[21:36] Speaker 4: will do their match day minus one training at their
[21:39] Speaker 4: base camp and then fly to do the press conference
[21:41] Speaker 4: before the game. It's a very real consideration. So it's
[21:47] Speaker 4: usually a bit more complex than a young man being.
[21:51] Speaker 1: Asked to do that. Bless him. Bless that young man.
[21:55] Speaker 3: I'd like to be a spy.
[21:56] Speaker 1: Would you?
[21:56] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[21:57] Speaker 1: I think in certain circumstances, you'd make an excellent spy.
[22:00] Speaker 1: But those circumstances would be a beat poetry club where
[22:04] Speaker 1: everyone was talking about frogs.
[22:06] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[22:06] Speaker 1: You'd fit right in there.
[22:07] Speaker 3: And my job was to bring down communism.
[22:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[22:09] Speaker 3: So like a McCarthy era.
[22:11] Speaker 2: Exactly.
[22:11] Speaker 1: Yeah. But I think in an office, I think you'd
[22:13] Speaker 1: make a pretty terrible spy.
[22:15] Speaker 2: That's why I'm not. Apparently... Oh.
[22:18] Speaker 4: What?
[22:18] Speaker 1: No. No?
[22:18] Speaker 3: No, go on.
[22:19] Speaker 2: Nothing.
[22:20] Speaker 1: Oh.
[22:21] Speaker 3: Fellow spies will know what I'm saying.
[22:23] Speaker 2: Apparently quite boring being a spy. Like the majority of
[22:27] Speaker 2: the time you're just sent somewhere and you have to
[22:29] Speaker 2: live a normal life doing usually.
[22:30] Speaker 3: A fairly shit job. No, you've got to run away
[22:31] Speaker 3: from explosions and shagging.
[22:34] Speaker 1: I thought that's what it was about as well. The
[22:36] Speaker 1: troubling thing is always having to find an explosion. That's
[22:38] Speaker 1: what the young man thought it was about.
[22:40] Speaker 3: Poor Will.
[22:41] Speaker 2: He was looking around for the explosion.
[22:44] Speaker 1: It's a shame, isn't it? Now, anyway, let's have a
[22:46] Speaker 1: quick advertisement break after all of that, as John described it,
[22:50] Speaker 1: non-football chat. And when we come back, we'll play a
[22:54] Speaker 1: quick rondo, which is about football. Don't worry, John. And
[22:56] Speaker 1: then there'll be some actual football. We'll see.
[23:00] Speaker 2: We'll see. We can find something, surely.
[23:02] Speaker 3: Have a break.
[23:04] Speaker 2: OK.
[23:05] Speaker 1: Welcome back from the break.
[23:06] Speaker 4: Sorry. What are you doing?
[23:08] Speaker 1: He's drinking from a loud receptacle.
[23:10] Speaker 2: That's Hamza.
[23:11] Speaker 1: What is that? It's a water bottle. It's an enormous flask.
[23:14] Speaker 2: It is.
[23:15] Speaker 1: Are you seeking to remain hydrated?
[23:16] Speaker 4: 32 hours.
[23:17] Speaker 1: He's forgotten how to speak into his microphone.
[23:19] Speaker 4: Sorry.
[23:20] Speaker 1: How about that?
[23:21] Speaker 2: How about that?
[23:22] Speaker 1: What an unprofessional guest from the Times of London.
[23:26] Speaker 4: You thought you were getting someone of Bahrain's quality.
[23:28] Speaker 3: Sorry.
[23:29] Speaker 2: Such a disappointment. Sadly, no.
[23:31] Speaker 1: Now... We're going to play the rondo now, Hamza. Do
[23:33] Speaker 1: you know what the rondo is?
[23:34] Speaker 4: I know the rondo, and I'm really glad that Kaya
[23:36] Speaker 4: and Ruben aren't here.
[23:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, they're very good at the rondo.
[23:39] Speaker 2: This might be an awful rondo.
[23:41] Speaker 1: Extra glad that.
[23:42] Speaker 3: Don't know, I'm here. Get ready to lose.
[23:45] Speaker 1: Get ready to be in a one-on-one against John very shortly. Now,
[23:49] Speaker 1: here's how the rondo works. I ask these guys a
[23:52] Speaker 1: question that has multiple correct answers. We go round in
[23:55] Speaker 1: a circle, and these guys give me the correct answers.
[23:57] Speaker 1: If they give me an incorrect answer, they are ejected
[23:59] Speaker 1: from the rondo. If they take too long, they diver.
[24:02] Speaker 1: They dally. They are ejected from the rondo. And the
[24:06] Speaker 1: final person remaining is named Rondo del Rey.
[24:09] Speaker 2: How about that?
[24:10] Speaker 1: Now, I just want to address something, Steve, before I
[24:12] Speaker 1: get started with today's rondo. There were many comments from
[24:16] Speaker 1: earlier this week suggesting that Ruben had indeed won the
[24:19] Speaker 1: first rondo that was too difficult. I'm afraid to inform you,
[24:24] Speaker 1: that's just simply incorrect, okay? When you are the last
[24:27] Speaker 1: person standing, you still have to answer another question correctly.
[24:31] Speaker 1: It's not about the imbalance of the maths, John. I
[24:33] Speaker 1: don't want to hear this bullshit about how, oh, the
[24:35] Speaker 1: other guys didn't get one right and he got one right.
[24:37] Speaker 1: It's not about having more right.
[24:38] Speaker 2: This is the problem with the rondo now. It's become
[24:40] Speaker 2: about other things. It's not about football anymore. It's about legality.
[24:43] Speaker 2: It's about VAR.
[24:44] Speaker 1: Anyway, I want to make it crystal clear. Ruben did
[24:47] Speaker 1: not win the rondo and only... People can be named
[24:50] Speaker 1: Rondo del Rey when I say so. That's the rules
[24:52] Speaker 1: of the game. And if I'm not here, it's not
[24:55] Speaker 1: a real game. Now, I just want to say a
[24:57] Speaker 1: quick thank you to Thrinath, who suggested this Rondo for today.
[25:01] Speaker 1: Here's the category for today's Rondo. Are you ready, JJ?
[25:03] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[25:03] Speaker 1: Are you listening hard? Absolutely. It's a little bit of
[25:06] Speaker 1: a tricky one. A little bit of a tricky one.
[25:09] Speaker 3: People.
[25:10] Speaker 1: Who became Premier League managers when they were under the
[25:14] Speaker 1: age of 36 years old. So that can be right
[25:16] Speaker 1: up to, the oldest person here is 35, 11 months
[25:19] Speaker 1: and 16 days. So it's managers who became Premier League
[25:23] Speaker 1: managers when they were younger than 36 years old and
[25:27] Speaker 1: they were 18 years old. Correct answers.
[25:29] Speaker 4: There's not 18, man.
[25:31] Speaker 1: There's not 18. We're saying interim, permanent, what's the... Everyone.
[25:36] Speaker 4: Everyone.
[25:37] Speaker 3: Okay, so even one game.
[25:38] Speaker 1: That's why it's hard, because there are a couple of
[25:40] Speaker 1: people in here that were interim or short-term. Okay. However,
[25:43] Speaker 1: there are some that weren't. And there are some existing
[25:45] Speaker 1: Premier League managers, Hamza. Hamza, there are some existing current
[25:49] Speaker 1: Premier League managers, permanent Premier League managers, who are currently
[25:53] Speaker 1: under the age of 36. Okay, great. Hamza, I'm going
[25:58] Speaker 1: to start with you now. I'm going to start with you.
[26:00] Speaker 1: And the rondo begins. Please name a manager who became
[26:02] Speaker 1: a Premier League manager at younger than 36.
[26:03] Speaker 4: Chris Hewton.
[26:05] Speaker 2: I know I'm allowed the free one. I know I'm
[26:08] Speaker 2: allowed the free one.
[26:09] Speaker 1: He's gone for a free joke.
[26:10] Speaker 2: A troll.
[26:10] Speaker 1: That was your troll answer. What's your correct answer?
[26:12] Speaker 4: Fabian Herzler.
[26:13] Speaker 1: Of course, Fabian Herzler. He counts. Let me just find
[26:16] Speaker 1: his name because there's too many people on this list. Oh, yes,
[26:18] Speaker 1: there we go. He was 31 years old and five
[26:21] Speaker 1: months and 22 days. I won't say that for all
[26:23] Speaker 1: of them, but that's how old he was when he became.
[26:25] Speaker 1: How old are you?
[26:26] Speaker 2: 28. Okay.
[26:27] Speaker 1: So Hamza's younger, but everyone else here is older than
[26:30] Speaker 1: that person.
[26:30] Speaker 4: Right.
[26:31] Speaker 1: Okay.
[26:31] Speaker 2: John? Ryan Mason.
[26:33] Speaker 1: Ryan Mason. He was 29. Ryan Mason was the youngest.
[26:38] Speaker 1: JJ's pushing away from the microphone, listeners. I suspect he's been... JJ,
[26:42] Speaker 1: I'll buy some time for you by saying that Ryan
[26:44] Speaker 1: Mason was the youngest person to be named Premier League
[26:47] Speaker 1: manager ever. at the age of 29 years, 10 months
[26:51] Speaker 1: and eight days. Hamza, play your cards right. Over the
[26:52] Speaker 1: next few months, you could break that record. How about that?
[26:56] Speaker 1: Although it doesn't seem like it on the strength of
[26:57] Speaker 1: today's performance so far. Now, back to- The age is
[27:00] Speaker 1: under what?
[27:00] Speaker 3: It's 36 and under.
[27:01] Speaker 1: Under 36. So the oldest person here, 35, 11 months
[27:04] Speaker 1: and 16 days. And just to be clear, many of
[27:06] Speaker 1: these people are no longer under 36, okay? Many of
[27:11] Speaker 1: them are in their 50s. In one case, someone on
[27:13] Speaker 1: this list is 60 years old right now and a
[27:16] Speaker 1: long time ago was a young manager, okay?
[27:18] Speaker 3: Okay.
[27:18] Speaker 1: JJ, over to you. Now, if it helps you, I
[27:22] Speaker 1: can tell you that you know every name. Well, no,
[27:25] Speaker 1: you know many of the names on this list, okay?
[27:27] Speaker 3: Yeah, there's one boy whose name I can't remember, but
[27:30] Speaker 3: I'm going to do the one that.
[27:33] Speaker 3: Alan Shearer?
[27:37] Speaker 2: No.
[27:38] Speaker 1: No! Sorry, JJ.
[27:40] Speaker 4: What?
[27:41] Speaker 1: Alan Shearer. I'll find out how old Alan Shearer was.
[27:43] Speaker 1: He was 38 years old. He was 38 years old. Okay.
[27:47] Speaker 1: You were close though, buddy. Just two years off. Right now, Hamza,
[27:51] Speaker 1: back to you.
[27:52] Speaker 4: Kenny Dalgleish?
[27:53] Speaker 1: Kenny Dalgleish.
[27:56] Speaker 3: Is not on the list.
[27:57] Speaker 1: Is not on the list. Okay. So, John, if you
[28:00] Speaker 1: can get a correct answer now, you will be named
[28:03] Speaker 1: Rondo Del Rey. This was a hard one, Steve.
[28:06] Speaker 3: Almost too hard.
[28:06] Speaker 1: Almost.
[28:07] Speaker 2: There's still current Premier League managers who fit this criteria, right?
[28:15] Speaker 1: No.
[28:16] Speaker 3: No.
[28:19] Speaker 1: There are no current Premier League managers that fit this criteria.
[28:21] Speaker 3: Well, the one whose name I know is, I think
[28:23] Speaker 3: he would have counted, but we'll see. I can't remember
[28:26] Speaker 3: his name.
[28:29] Speaker 2: I was going to say Eddie Howe, but it's not
[28:31] Speaker 2: going to be Eddie Howe. So I'll go with David Moyes.
[28:35] Speaker 1: David Moyes is not on the list. Can we do
[28:38] Speaker 1: a new Rondo then? I think so, because no one
[28:40] Speaker 1: got these correct. Do you want to hear the names?
[28:42] Speaker 1: Do you want to guess one more?
[28:43] Speaker 3: Gary Monk.
[28:44] Speaker 1: Gary Monk's on the list.
[28:45] Speaker 3: Gary O'Neill.
[28:47] Speaker 1: Gary Monk is on the list. Gary O'Neill is not
[28:49] Speaker 1: on the list. Gary Monk was a named manager at
[28:51] Speaker 1: 34 years old.
[28:52] Speaker 2: What about Potter? He must have been older.
[28:54] Speaker 1: Potter was older. So the names he could have had.
[28:56] Speaker 2: Frank Lampard?
[28:57] Speaker 1: The names you could have had.
[28:58] Speaker 4: I reckon Potter, because he got the fade.
[29:01] Speaker 1: You're a terrible influence on the new person, John.
[29:03] Speaker 4: You could shave off at least five years.
[29:05] Speaker 1: He disrespects me because you do. That's how it works.
[29:08] Speaker 2: I'm glad that I'm having some positive influence.
[29:10] Speaker 1: On the world. This is why teachers eject children from
[29:12] Speaker 1: the classroom, isn't it? I know they say don't do it,
[29:14] Speaker 1: but I say get them gone. Now, Attilo Lombardo.
[29:19] Speaker 2: Yeah? Palace.
[29:20] Speaker 3: Palace.
[29:21] Speaker 1: There you go. We knew that. Chris Coleman, of course,
[29:23] Speaker 1: at Fulham. Gianluca Vialli was 33. Southgate. Southgate is the
[29:26] Speaker 1: oldest person on the list. 35, 11 months, 16 days.
[29:28] Speaker 1: Glenn Hoddle. Aidy Boothroyd. You could have had. Dave Watson.
[29:32] Speaker 1: Leon Britton. Paul Goddard. Gary Monk. Well done, JJ. Paul Jewell.
[29:35] Speaker 2: How old is Eddie Howe?
[29:36] Speaker 1: Eddie Howe? I don't know, but he's not on my list,
[29:38] Speaker 1: so look it up yourself. Alex Neil. If it turns
[29:40] Speaker 1: out he was under 36, what happens? You are unbearable today.
[29:45] Speaker 1: This is worse than that time that he kept having
[29:47] Speaker 1: his computer say Port Saloo. Remember that? That was awful.
[29:51] Speaker 1: Andre Viers-Boas, of course, to Chelsea at 33. Ruud Gullit
[29:54] Speaker 1: was on.
[29:54] Speaker 3: Here as well. He was 33. Yeah.
[29:56] Speaker 2: There you go.
[29:57] Speaker 1: I would say, JJ, that nothing at this stage has
[29:59] Speaker 1: really impacted your reputation with the Rondo.
[30:01] Speaker 2: It's fine.
[30:02] Speaker 1: It's just consistent, if anything. So it's not like it's
[30:04] Speaker 1: got any worse. And I think that was a difficult one.
[30:07] Speaker 1: And many people would have thought of Alan. Alan Shearer
[30:09] Speaker 1: was quite good. I see how you got there. You
[30:11] Speaker 1: thought of players recently retired who took over for a
[30:13] Speaker 1: short period of time.
[30:14] Speaker 3: What footballers do I know?
[30:16] Speaker 1: That manage the team I secretly support.
[30:19] Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay.
[30:19] Speaker 1: Well, there we go. Well done to everyone other than
[30:22] Speaker 1: the people in this room for participating there in the Rondo.
[30:26] Speaker 1: And now we will move on. John, have you discovered
[30:28] Speaker 1: yet how old he was? No.
[30:30] Speaker 3: No.
[30:30] Speaker 4: Kenny was 34 when he became manager.
[30:32] Speaker 1: Of what team?
[30:33] Speaker 2: Liverpool.
[30:33] Speaker 3: Liverpool, but it's not the Premier League.
[30:35] Speaker 1: Oh, it wasn't in the Premier League. There you go.
[30:38] Speaker 1: There you go. So again, a nice answer, but still wrong.
[30:42] Speaker 4: Seven years out.
[30:44] Speaker 1: Okay.
[30:45] Speaker 2: Next up.
[30:47] Speaker 1: Xabi Alonso to Chelsea? That's what the title reads here. Now,
[30:52] Speaker 1: the turmoil that has continued to engulf Real Madrid casts
[30:55] Speaker 1: an enlightening perspective on Xabi Alonso's seven months as a
[30:59] Speaker 1: coach there, writes Steve. It's possible that he wasn't even
[31:02] Speaker 1: the issue, guys. It could be the case. We just
[31:05] Speaker 1: don't know. Anyway, the Basque is still viewed by many,
[31:08] Speaker 1: including John, as being amongst the next generation of elite coaches.
[31:12] Speaker 1: Is that true, John? Yes or no? Just yes or no?
[31:15] Speaker 1: weren't even listening to me, were you?
[31:16] Speaker 4: Yes.
[31:16] Speaker 2: I was still trying to find out how old Eddie
[31:17] Speaker 2: Howard was.
[31:17] Speaker 1: I was still trying to find who did this. And
[31:20] Speaker 1: speculation about his potential arrival in the Premier League has
[31:22] Speaker 1: set tongues wagging and mouths salivating. Steve's nodding there. He's
[31:28] Speaker 1: happy with that.
[31:30] Speaker 2: Eddie Howard's 37 years old when he... But he started
[31:34] Speaker 2: managing Bournemouth in 2004. See, the thing about this is
[31:37] Speaker 2: mutual disrespect for you and me now because he's ignoring
[31:40] Speaker 2: you speaking. I mean, the people want to know. They
[31:42] Speaker 2: need to know that there's no corruption going on.
[31:43] Speaker 1: I'm going to say, Steve, the disrespect for you is
[31:45] Speaker 1: a sort of given. But for me, for me, incredible. Listen,
[31:49] Speaker 1: we're talking about the news that broke. David Ornstein broke
[31:51] Speaker 1: this news last week or earlier this week. that Chelsea
[31:54] Speaker 1: are in negotiations with Xabi Alonso about becoming manager. And now,
[31:58] Speaker 1: I was certainly surprised to hear this. I kind of
[32:01] Speaker 1: just assumed that, you know, maybe there'd be that spot
[32:03] Speaker 1: at Liverpool if it wasn't working out for slot, or
[32:06] Speaker 1: I don't know, that Chelsea seemed like a kind of
[32:08] Speaker 1: insane club for any manager to want to go to
[32:11] Speaker 1: at the moment. But who knows? Apparently, that's not the case.
[32:14] Speaker 1: As a starting point, I'll come to you, Hamza. Do
[32:16] Speaker 1: you think he fits at Chelsea, Xabi Alonso?
[32:19] Speaker 4: In what way? I don't mean to be facetious with
[32:22] Speaker 4: that question.
[32:22] Speaker 1: No, sure.
[32:22] Speaker 2: You've got to be careful with him. He's a bit
[32:23] Speaker 2: tetchy today. Maybe just give him a straight answer and
[32:27] Speaker 2: hide behind your mic.
[32:28] Speaker 1: Do you think that... I mean, I guess I'll rephrase
[32:31] Speaker 1: the question this way. I wondered if one of the
[32:34] Speaker 1: problems with his time at Real Madrid was that there
[32:38] Speaker 1: were some older or more experienced players who didn't want
[32:41] Speaker 1: to listen to him. Whereas at Chelsea, I feel like
[32:44] Speaker 1: one of the things they have going for them is
[32:45] Speaker 1: they have quite a lot of young players who are
[32:47] Speaker 1: maybe tactically malleable... So I'm curious if you think that
[32:51] Speaker 1: his tactical approach or his game model suits the players
[32:54] Speaker 1: that they have there.
[32:55] Speaker 4: Well, I think that's two separate questions. So the tactical
[32:58] Speaker 4: question is about the player quality and then the man
[33:02] Speaker 4: management thing is about the players and their emotionality and
[33:07] Speaker 4: the group as a whole. And I've always thought with
[33:09] Speaker 4: Chelsea as a group, imagine an away game with them, right?
[33:15] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
[33:17] Speaker 4: I think Tosin is the oldest player. Last time I checked,
[33:19] Speaker 4: he's 28. He might be 29 now. It's like a
[33:23] Speaker 4: school trip. That's what I've got in my head, right?
[33:26] Speaker 4: It's around 11 o'clock. The manager said, okay, everyone go
[33:29] Speaker 4: to bed. We've got a match tomorrow at Champions League.
[33:31] Speaker 4: And you've got Alejandro Granaccio on someone's door. And then
[33:36] Speaker 4: Rhys James is telling everyone, guys, you've got to go
[33:39] Speaker 4: to sleep. and then Enzo Fernandez just squirting water down,
[33:43] Speaker 4: and then someone else putting water bottles on the floor.
[33:45] Speaker 1: And John McKenzie talking when he's not supposed to. That
[33:48] Speaker 1: kind of thing.
[33:48] Speaker 2: Maybe, maybe, maybe.
[33:50] Speaker 4: I'm not going to fire shots at John.
[33:52] Speaker 2: I think you've taken enough already today.
[33:56] Speaker 4: So you've got that question, which is about emotional man
[33:58] Speaker 4: management of a group that is, from the outside at least,
[34:01] Speaker 4: believed to be quite difficult just because of that makeup.
[34:03] Speaker 4: And when we think about other successful groups, you usually
[34:06] Speaker 4: have a good dispersion of, ages and experiences across the
[34:09] Speaker 4: group rather than just a concentration of very young players?
[34:11] Speaker 4: You've got that question. And then you've got the stylistic one.
[34:14] Speaker 4: And the stylistic one, I think, is the one where
[34:16] Speaker 4: most people probably lean to, yes, he would be a
[34:18] Speaker 4: good fit. But that raises broader questions about, OK, what
[34:22] Speaker 4: do we think the Premier League is going to be
[34:24] Speaker 4: next year or the year after that or the year
[34:26] Speaker 4: after that? Is Alonso's model that he used at Bayer
[34:31] Speaker 4: Leverkusen and early at Real Madrid. Is that him? Is
[34:35] Speaker 4: he more malleable than that? Can he adapt and change that?
[34:38] Speaker 4: I think we are fair to assume that high possession
[34:41] Speaker 4: is a part of his game. Conservative possession as well,
[34:44] Speaker 4: so being defensive with your possession and then using that
[34:47] Speaker 4: to consolidate the game, strangle and compress the opponent. That's
[34:52] Speaker 4: sort of what he's doing.
[34:54] Speaker 1: That is.
[34:56] Speaker 4: That's the control model that many coaches use. And it's
[34:59] Speaker 4: different in different, in small ways from other managers within
[35:03] Speaker 4: that sort of frame. But is that always going to
[35:07] Speaker 4: be the model that you need in the Premier League?
[35:09] Speaker 3: I don't know, to be honest.
[35:11] Speaker 4: I think when you look at someone like Arnaud Slott
[35:13] Speaker 4: of Liverpool, you go, oh yeah, there's that, that style there.
[35:16] Speaker 4: And then it just doesn't work this season because this
[35:18] Speaker 4: season has had a lot of changes within it in
[35:20] Speaker 4: terms of directness and peace and all that sort of stuff.
[35:23] Speaker 4: Sorry for not answering your question. I just, I think
[35:26] Speaker 4: emotionally that's a hard group irrespective of who you are.
[35:30] Speaker 4: And I think the game model, it could work, but
[35:33] Speaker 4: also I think Chelsea fans want something a bit more exciting.
[35:35] Speaker 4: So it might not be what they expect when they go, oh, Alonso,
[35:39] Speaker 4: former Champions League winner with Real Madrid. This should be fun.
[35:42] Speaker 4: So yeah, I think it's a bit more complex.
[35:43] Speaker 2: I think the fit thing as well, it's it's very
[35:46] Speaker 2: it's all well and good being like does alonso fit
[35:47] Speaker 2: chelsea but we've had so many examples now of managers
[35:50] Speaker 2: who you know are good coaches coming in and not
[35:53] Speaker 2: being able to fit chelsea right the big the bigger
[35:55] Speaker 2: issue it seems to me is that like how who
[35:57] Speaker 2: who does fit with chelsea and and to what extent
[36:00] Speaker 2: our play our coach is being maybe negatively thought of
[36:03] Speaker 2: by the fact that their influence that they join in
[36:06] Speaker 2: the club and then their influence is it's almost tainted
[36:08] Speaker 2: by it in a in a sort of negative sense
[36:10] Speaker 2: so maresca is like a great example of this right
[36:12] Speaker 2: it's that When he was at Chelsea, everyone was like, yeah,
[36:14] Speaker 2: Chelsea are okay, doing just about enough. They're getting in
[36:17] Speaker 2: top four race enough. But then he's the only coach
[36:20] Speaker 2: who's managed to get them fairly consistently playing at a
[36:22] Speaker 2: level where you think, yeah, okay, they're in the top
[36:24] Speaker 2: four teams in this league. And now that he's gone
[36:28] Speaker 2: and they brought in Rossini and it hasn't gone as well,
[36:31] Speaker 2: people are like, oh, maybe Maresca was actually a much
[36:33] Speaker 2: better coach than we gave him credit for. So I
[36:36] Speaker 2: think there's that element as well that is going to
[36:38] Speaker 2: be interesting to see with someone like Alonso. The fact
[36:42] Speaker 2: that maybe even just going in the way that Chelsea
[36:44] Speaker 2: is set up, the way that they provide coaches with players,
[36:48] Speaker 2: the way that they approach the whole project of how
[36:50] Speaker 2: do you own and run a football club is different
[36:54] Speaker 2: and difficult enough that maybe even if he does fit
[36:57] Speaker 2: in the ways that we talked about here, it might
[36:59] Speaker 2: not necessarily be successful. And that's not me saying that
[37:02] Speaker 2: that's the case. It's just another layer, I think, in
[37:05] Speaker 2: that conversation about what does a coach who fits at
[37:08] Speaker 2: Chelsea look like?
[37:09] Speaker 1: Which in my head isn't Jabby Alonso, not for kind
[37:13] Speaker 1: of tactical reasons or anything, but because this sometimes happens, right?
[37:17] Speaker 1: I get surprised by managers' choices. And if this were
[37:21] Speaker 1: to happen, I mean, I don't think it's not confirmed, right?
[37:24] Speaker 1: So there's a world where this doesn't occur. But at
[37:27] Speaker 1: the very least, you have to say that he's interested
[37:28] Speaker 1: in taking the role by the sounds of it. I'm
[37:31] Speaker 1: surprised because Chelsea are kind of fucked right now. They've
[37:36] Speaker 1: got many sporting directors, right? That's not that big of
[37:40] Speaker 1: an issue. Honestly, I don't think so.
[37:42] Speaker 4: I think the sporting directors thing is a bit overplayed.
[37:44] Speaker 1: But don't big coaches like to have more control where
[37:47] Speaker 1: they work? And in this instance, he's going to a
[37:49] Speaker 1: club where it's clear that the coach is asked to
[37:52] Speaker 1: coach the players and not do much else. So the
[37:55] Speaker 1: sporting directors.
[37:55] Speaker 4: Thing is interesting. I... I had an interview with some
[37:59] Speaker 4: of the guys from UEFA who actually set up the
[38:01] Speaker 4: sporting director course for all sporting directors in UEFA countries, right?
[38:06] Speaker 4: And they said that the role of the sporting director
[38:08] Speaker 4: is actually like the stuff that's involved in it has
[38:12] Speaker 4: increased enormously now. So you have to be, for example,
[38:15] Speaker 4: an expert on legal issues, on international sort of registration issues, on.
[38:20] Speaker 3: Scouting, on data issues.
[38:23] Speaker 4: On man management. And because of this explosion, and then
[38:27] Speaker 4: you've got specialists like, for example, Bertra Arsner, who is
[38:31] Speaker 4: a deal specialist. There's all these different skills. And actually,
[38:34] Speaker 4: it helps to have multiple people being able to compartmentalize this.
[38:38] Speaker 4: As long as you've got some sort of direction and
[38:40] Speaker 4: you understand which person the manager is liaising with, and
[38:44] Speaker 4: as long as you've got that clarity.
[38:45] Speaker 2: That works.
[38:46] Speaker 4: As a concept, I don't think having multiple sporting directors
[38:49] Speaker 4: is an issue of itself. In the Chelsea model, where
[38:54] Speaker 4: one of the owners is very closely involved with that process,
[38:59] Speaker 4: so you will have expert opinion inputted from, let's say,
[39:03] Speaker 4: the sporting directors, and then the owner will go, oh, actually,
[39:07] Speaker 4: having seen that information, rather than just rubber stamping it,
[39:10] Speaker 4: as most owners would do, It's, oh, I'm going to
[39:12] Speaker 4: give some input here. That changes that dynamic and that
[39:15] Speaker 4: makes it a bit more difficult and complex. And to
[39:18] Speaker 4: return to your initial point about the idea of a
[39:21] Speaker 4: Chelsea manager, did Chelsea even have an idea of a manager?
[39:24] Speaker 4: Because when we look at the shortlist that's available, Xabi Alonso,
[39:28] Speaker 4: Marco Silva and Antonio Raul... they're not similar play styles.
[39:32] Speaker 4: I don't know if Chelsea do have an idea of
[39:34] Speaker 4: what they really want. And I think that in itself
[39:36] Speaker 4: is a problem. You should have a clear sort of
[39:39] Speaker 4: picture of of what this squad can achieve and the
[39:42] Speaker 4: manager that will match with that. And at the moment,
[39:45] Speaker 4: you go, oh yeah, Irola could get a lot out
[39:47] Speaker 4: of these players, maybe not so much out of those. Alonso,
[39:49] Speaker 4: a lot out of those players, maybe not so much
[39:51] Speaker 4: of those. And Marcus Silva, likewise. That seems like a
[39:54] Speaker 4: bit of a problem. But yeah, sorry for interjecting.
[39:56] Speaker 1: No, no, no. What do you think, JJ?
[39:59] Speaker 3: I think the point about the school trip is exactly
[40:01] Speaker 3: relevant in a way. I always think managers who are
[40:04] Speaker 3: young come in, will do well with young players. There's
[40:07] Speaker 3: that thing where Arsene Wenger, I think, talked about how
[40:10] Speaker 3: When he first came to Arsenal, he was of an
[40:12] Speaker 3: identifiable age with the younger players. Not a father figure,
[40:16] Speaker 3: but he almost can be one of the lads. He'll
[40:19] Speaker 3: have pints.
[40:20] Speaker 1: Like an older brother, almost.
[40:21] Speaker 3: That sort of thing, yeah. And then by the time
[40:25] Speaker 3: he left, he was basically not a granddad.
[40:27] Speaker 1: He was 100 years old.
[40:28] Speaker 3: He was 100 years old. And his beard was so
[40:30] Speaker 3: long that they could hold on to it to be
[40:31] Speaker 3: able to get to wherever they needed to go.
[40:33] Speaker 1: They called him Arsene Wengeldor.
[40:36] Speaker 3: The Great. Yes, that's what they did. And obviously that
[40:39] Speaker 3: can't continue for too long. So they had to stop
[40:41] Speaker 3: doing that eventually. And so you've got Callum McFarlane at
[40:44] Speaker 3: the moment is in charge of them, but he's like the,
[40:47] Speaker 3: I'd want to not make it sound like I'm being derogatory.
[40:49] Speaker 2: Teacher substitute.
[40:50] Speaker 3: I think less so. It's more like the coach who
[40:53] Speaker 3: deals with, it's just like a coach who comes along
[40:57] Speaker 3: on a Sunday afternoon, like come on lads, let's go,
[40:59] Speaker 3: get in the bus, let's go. So I think he'd
[41:00] Speaker 3: know how to manage that group weirdly. Alonso going to Chelsea,
[41:05] Speaker 3: if you get offered it, so Alonso's out of work,
[41:07] Speaker 3: he was at Real Madrid. Chelsea are an enormous club.
[41:09] Speaker 3: There's a lot of potential there. The stuff that's going
[41:11] Speaker 3: on behind the scenes, it sounds like a nonsense. They're
[41:14] Speaker 3: in the FA Cup final on Saturday. Every chance that
[41:18] Speaker 3: whoever comes in and can get things right can get
[41:20] Speaker 3: them back in Champions League.
[41:21] Speaker 1: Pretty good under Barista at times, isn't it?
[41:23] Speaker 3: So if you're a top-tier manager with ambitions of being
[41:27] Speaker 3: one of the best at winning stuff, That's one of
[41:28] Speaker 3: the few clubs in the world where you can pretty
[41:30] Speaker 3: much guarantee you're able to try and win stuff if
[41:32] Speaker 3: you get it right. And he'll have the ego where
[41:34] Speaker 3: he's like, I can do that because I'm the best one.
[41:35] Speaker 3: The Liverpool job doesn't come up. Like, slot... Thinks he'll
[41:39] Speaker 3: be there next season. So that's one there. Evan assumes
[41:41] Speaker 3: he'll go there because of the Liverpool connection.
[41:43] Speaker 1: Let me ask you this way though, right? If you're
[41:45] Speaker 1: Xabi Alonso, let's assume you're Xabi Alonso.
[41:48] Speaker 3: I can do that.
[41:49] Speaker 1: And you are, you're hot stuff.
[41:51] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[41:52] Speaker 1: You're like, you know, you've got everyone in the world
[41:54] Speaker 1: saying you're one of the top like two or three
[41:56] Speaker 1: managers out there.
[41:56] Speaker 3: I'd have to pretend I know that.
[41:57] Speaker 1: Okay, you just know that.
[41:58] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[41:59] Speaker 1: And you also look at a manager market where you see,
[42:02] Speaker 1: hang on, almost every big club needs a coach this
[42:04] Speaker 1: coming summer. And you have your context. You're not going
[42:08] Speaker 1: back to Real Madrid. You're obviously not going to Barcelona.
[42:10] Speaker 1: You're not going to manage any of that Liga, right?
[42:12] Speaker 1: You're going to come to the Premier League. Which club
[42:13] Speaker 1: are you going to pick? Are you going to pick Chelsea?
[42:16] Speaker 3: Why not? It's one of the big ones.
[42:17] Speaker 1: I don't know. To me, maybe it's just recency bias.
[42:20] Speaker 2: Maybe it is.
[42:20] Speaker 1: Maybe I'm stuck on them having lost the last seven
[42:23] Speaker 1: games and they just seem like they're in total crisis.
[42:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, but you can fix it if you're a good manager. Exactly.
[42:29] Speaker 3: To do with people management and having sporting directors who
[42:31] Speaker 3: find players that you want. I want this sort of player.
[42:33] Speaker 3: I want this sort of experience. I want this sort
[42:35] Speaker 3: of squad built. Then they go and give it to
[42:36] Speaker 3: you and say, do you want this player? And like, yes,
[42:38] Speaker 3: get him. It doesn't mean you have a final say
[42:40] Speaker 3: or whatever, but you still have input and they still
[42:42] Speaker 3: bring things to you. And you can make Chelsea good again.
[42:45] Speaker 3: If I was playing football managers, I always go back to,
[42:48] Speaker 3: would I like to do Chelsea just now? Yeah, because
[42:50] Speaker 3: they've got really decent players. I know exactly what I'd
[42:52] Speaker 3: try and do in the transfer market. And I know
[42:54] Speaker 3: how I'd be able to make them good. At the moment,
[42:56] Speaker 3: they're in a bit of weakness and vulnerability. So we
[42:58] Speaker 3: can probably get a pretty good contract out of them.
[43:00] Speaker 3: And so either it works for him or they fire
[43:02] Speaker 3: him and he gets a massive payoff. And then everyone
[43:05] Speaker 3: knows the situation anyway. It doesn't affect his career at all.
[43:07] Speaker 3: He's not really going down. He's going to one of
[43:09] Speaker 3: the big clubs, you know. So I don't think it's
[43:12] Speaker 3: necessarily a bad thing. I don't know if he'll take
[43:13] Speaker 3: it or not, because you probably consider that you have
[43:15] Speaker 3: to really pick your clubs very carefully, I think, with
[43:17] Speaker 3: your top-tier manager. Guardiola hadn't gone to Bayern and said
[43:20] Speaker 3: he'd gone somewhere small and tried and done the ambitious thing.
[43:22] Speaker 3: So every chance he wouldn't now be seeing him as
[43:24] Speaker 3: the greatest coach that's ever lived. But I think Chelsea,
[43:28] Speaker 3: I can see why it would make sense for him.
[43:30] Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense. I mean, the only other thing
[43:32] Speaker 1: I'd be curious about, and you kind of mentioned this
[43:33] Speaker 1: a little bit before, Hamza, is whether or not the
[43:37] Speaker 1: way that he played football at Leverkusen is what he
[43:40] Speaker 1: would do in the Premier League. We don't know. Maybe
[43:42] Speaker 1: he's much more flexible than that and would try something different.
[43:45] Speaker 1: But it's clear, from this season at least, that the
[43:49] Speaker 1: thing that's different in the Premier League is the level
[43:51] Speaker 1: of physicality and what's on show most this season is
[43:54] Speaker 1: set pieces as well. So if he were to take
[43:56] Speaker 1: the job at Chelsea, how do you think he would
[43:58] Speaker 1: have to adjust what he did at Leverkusen to match
[44:03] Speaker 1: this current play style meta?
[44:06] Speaker 4: I think looking to Liverpool is a good example, right?
[44:08] Speaker 4: Because you have an example there of a coach who
[44:10] Speaker 4: had a pretty attacking style in the Netherlands, tried to
[44:13] Speaker 4: bring it to the Premier League, made a few tweaks,
[44:16] Speaker 4: adapted really well and then was presented with a team.
[44:19] Speaker 4: It actually started when Everton played Liverpool at Goodison, the
[44:24] Speaker 4: last derby there. Everton actually targeted Liverpool with long balls,
[44:28] Speaker 4: really direct football. And that rattled Liverpool. It rattled slot.
[44:33] Speaker 4: I think he got sent off that day and it
[44:35] Speaker 4: set a blueprint up for how to play them really direct,
[44:37] Speaker 4: really physical. And from that point onwards, they never really
[44:40] Speaker 4: understood or recovered from that point. So yeah, that became
[44:46] Speaker 4: a big issue and it's something that they never really anticipated.
[44:49] Speaker 4: And it's that treatment, that extreme long ball treatment, kicking
[44:54] Speaker 4: long to avoid pressing. So again, if you're a team
[44:57] Speaker 4: that likes to press and that's part of your your
[45:00] Speaker 4: tactical composition, and then teams just start kicking long against you,
[45:04] Speaker 4: you can't press anymore, which has two issues, right? If
[45:07] Speaker 4: you can't press, that means it's hard to defend because
[45:10] Speaker 4: when you press, you keep the ball away from your goal.
[45:13] Speaker 4: It also means that you're not getting those turnovers high
[45:15] Speaker 4: upfield to create shots from. So you lose in the
[45:17] Speaker 4: defensive side and the attacking side. So if that's a
[45:20] Speaker 4: key component of your game and the team just kicked
[45:21] Speaker 4: long against you and then went set pieces, that's quite difficult.
[45:24] Speaker 4: And then it comes to what you just mentioned there,
[45:26] Speaker 4: the composition of your squad. Do you look at Chelsea's
[45:29] Speaker 4: squad and go, yeah, that's a team that can really
[45:31] Speaker 4: sort of mix it up with set pieces? Or do
[45:34] Speaker 4: they need to? And going, this is the interesting thing, right?
[45:38] Speaker 4: I think, I don't know if John agrees, I don't
[45:40] Speaker 4: know if you guys agree, I think set pieces are
[45:42] Speaker 4: becoming more and more important. You see that every week
[45:45] Speaker 4: in the Premier League. You see the amount of goals
[45:46] Speaker 4: that have been scored from set pieces. You see how
[45:48] Speaker 4: that interacts with the tactical meta at the moment. So
[45:52] Speaker 4: it's difficult to score in open play. And teams go, okay,
[45:54] Speaker 4: it's difficult to score in open play. Let's try and
[45:57] Speaker 4: take fewer risks in open play. And let's try and
[46:00] Speaker 4: optimize from our set pieces. That could be a long throw.
[46:03] Speaker 4: That could be a free kick. It could be a corner.
[46:04] Speaker 4: But it's usually long throws and corners, principally by stacking
[46:08] Speaker 4: players into the six-yard box and creating the meat wall,
[46:12] Speaker 4: as Michael Cayley called it, to stop the goalkeeper. Because whereas...
[46:17] Speaker 4: When you think about where you're putting the ball into
[46:18] Speaker 4: the box, shots closest to the goal have a higher
[46:22] Speaker 4: XG or likelihood of being scored. So ideally, you want
[46:25] Speaker 4: that cross to be as close to the goal mouth
[46:26] Speaker 4: as possible. Historically, the issue is that the goalkeeper just
[46:31] Speaker 4: catches it. Great cross, whatever, who cares? I've caught it.
[46:34] Speaker 4: I've killed that attack. But when you can block the goalkeeper,
[46:39] Speaker 4: that just means that you now get that shot from
[46:41] Speaker 4: that area, which is high quality and high value. And
[46:44] Speaker 4: the goalkeeper can't catch it. So that changes the dynamic
[46:46] Speaker 4: and it changes how you see risk. Because if you
[46:48] Speaker 4: can do that, why bother building up? If you're 40
[46:53] Speaker 4: yards from goal and you're trying to get the ball
[46:55] Speaker 4: in the box to create a shot, right? Let's just imagine.
[46:58] Speaker 4: Let's say I'm the center back. I've got another center
[47:00] Speaker 4: back that's 10 yards to the right of me. I've
[47:02] Speaker 4: got a right back that's 15 yards to the right
[47:05] Speaker 4: of him. I've got a left back that's 10 yards
[47:06] Speaker 4: to the left of me. And number six, that's 10
[47:09] Speaker 4: yards in front of me. Number eight, I've got one
[47:11] Speaker 4: guy in the box. If I've got a free kick
[47:14] Speaker 4: from that position, I just get the goalkeeper, tell him,
[47:17] Speaker 4: stand there, you take it, and we will put nine
[47:19] Speaker 4: guys in the box. We're probably going to get a
[47:21] Speaker 4: shot off. That fundamentally changes the relationship between risk and
[47:26] Speaker 4: how you conceive of attacking and trying to approach a match.
[47:30] Speaker 4: And I think that is actually changing. And I think
[47:33] Speaker 4: that's going to inform how teams play in seasons to come.
[47:36] Speaker 4: but that's the thesis.
[47:38] Speaker 3: I totally agree I think a lot of it is
[47:41] Speaker 3: so you're trying to win trying to gain advantages and
[47:43] Speaker 3: you think of it like how AI does so you
[47:46] Speaker 3: look at the game of football what is it two
[47:48] Speaker 3: teams of 11 try and score more goals than the
[47:50] Speaker 3: other person and what's the best way to win it
[47:52] Speaker 3: the best way is to like kill all humans but
[47:55] Speaker 3: the second best way is to like um you break
[47:58] Speaker 3: down the component parts and it's exactly this is like
[48:00] Speaker 3: this is a repeatable thing that you can do and
[48:03] Speaker 3: so if you work out ways to manipulate that that's
[48:05] Speaker 3: like you can break the game is basically what i
[48:07] Speaker 3: think is happening because if you make it purely like
[48:10] Speaker 3: really physical you eliminate lots of bits and pieces you
[48:13] Speaker 3: can make that there are gonna be exceptions to it
[48:15] Speaker 3: and i really hope we don't see this especially the
[48:17] Speaker 3: world cup but you'll have teams who can play around
[48:19] Speaker 3: and do all these sorts of things. But exactly, if
[48:21] Speaker 3: you want to press try and win the ball high,
[48:22] Speaker 3: but they go over you, then you need to be
[48:24] Speaker 3: better in the middle of the park to win the
[48:25] Speaker 3: balls there. You need to be better in defence as
[48:28] Speaker 3: well for dealing specifically with those kinds of crosses.
[48:31] Speaker 1: I guess also the consequence of this, what's been interesting
[48:37] Speaker 1: to me about the latter end of this season, with
[48:39] Speaker 1: Arsenal's free kick routines, for example, and I'll use two examples.
[48:42] Speaker 1: One would be the West Ham one, right at the
[48:45] Speaker 1: end of the game. And the second is, trying to
[48:47] Speaker 1: remember the team it was, was it Fulham where they
[48:49] Speaker 1: scored their different corner routine against?
[48:53] Speaker 4: The free kick.
[48:55] Speaker 1: Was it the free kick? I'm thinking of the one
[48:56] Speaker 1: where they passed the ball out to the edge.
[48:58] Speaker 4: Of the box.
[48:58] Speaker 1: Newcastle. It was Newcastle.
[48:59] Speaker 3: It was Ezra's goal.
[49:00] Speaker 1: It was Ezra's goal. Ezra's lovely goal. So, you know,
[49:03] Speaker 1: the reason I bring up those two examples is the
[49:05] Speaker 1: West Ham example shows just how much chaos is occurring
[49:09] Speaker 1: now in the box as a result of this. As teams,
[49:12] Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned that teams work out how to
[49:14] Speaker 1: do this, how to attack. Takes a bit of time
[49:17] Speaker 1: for teams to adjust how to defend that.
[49:19] Speaker 4: I don't know if they even have it. that.
[49:20] Speaker 1: Well, no, they're starting to now, right? But what that
[49:24] Speaker 1: looks like in the transition period is chaos and fouls everywhere.
[49:27] Speaker 1: So when the referee pauses to try and do the
[49:29] Speaker 1: VAR review the other day, and since we spoke about that,
[49:31] Speaker 1: we've all seen the video where you can hear their conversation,
[49:34] Speaker 1: which I think is very instructive as well. And a
[49:37] Speaker 1: lot about, you've mentioned the word human a few times today,
[49:39] Speaker 1: a lot about being a human is involved in listening
[49:41] Speaker 1: to that conversation. But you see the chaos and the
[49:44] Speaker 1: result of that is all of the fouls. The other
[49:46] Speaker 1: cool thing though, is that Arsenal have scored once or
[49:50] Speaker 1: twice now from that different corner quick routine where all
[49:52] Speaker 1: of the defenders on the opposing team are stacking the
[49:55] Speaker 1: six yard line because they're terrified of what you've just described.
[49:58] Speaker 1: And then Arsenal play it to the edge of the
[50:00] Speaker 1: box and score a lovely goal. So I do wonder
[50:01] Speaker 1: if that's the beginning of seeing how teams iterate against
[50:05] Speaker 1: that and then vice versa. I don't know.
[50:08] Speaker 3: Well, we've seen ways of dealing with it as well.
[50:10] Speaker 3: Like Chelsea, when Arsenal were lining up against them this season.
[50:13] Speaker 1: Rushing players out of the box.
[50:15] Speaker 3: Well, yeah, but that's the thing. So we saw PSG
[50:16] Speaker 3: do it before that and they just stuck them higher
[50:18] Speaker 3: up the pitch. So you have more players higher up.
[50:20] Speaker 3: You're like, oh, right, maybe we need to pull some
[50:21] Speaker 3: players back to deal with that. But one of the
[50:24] Speaker 3: things Chelsea did when they played against Arsenal, I can't
[50:26] Speaker 3: remember which game it was, but Arsenal would line up
[50:28] Speaker 3: the corner. And just as they're about to, like, they're
[50:30] Speaker 3: just about to start running up, then the players sprint
[50:33] Speaker 3: up the pitch. So then Arsenal's players are like, ah,
[50:35] Speaker 3: I know I've got to go with them, can't go,
[50:37] Speaker 3: because if it turns over, then they're there. So it's
[50:39] Speaker 3: a bit more risk. Really clever thing, I think, to
[50:42] Speaker 3: try and to do with it.
[50:43] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[50:44] Speaker 3: But people will find, like, ingenuitive?
[50:48] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[50:48] Speaker 3: Yes, ingenuitive people. Ingenious ideas. Yes, they'll find ways to
[50:51] Speaker 3: get around it. It will, like, come back around. I
[50:54] Speaker 3: think it is so powerful just now because you can't
[50:57] Speaker 3: just do it by putting... big lads.
[51:00] Speaker 1: Will they change the rules though, John, do you think
[51:01] Speaker 1: in the summer?
[51:02] Speaker 2: I think they have to after last weekend. I think
[51:05] Speaker 2: there's a realization that they've maybe lent too far into
[51:08] Speaker 2: allowing set pieces to be overpowered. And, you know, in
[51:13] Speaker 2: that situation, there's, I have no interest in litigating what
[51:17] Speaker 2: goes on, but like there's Plenty of fouls, in my opinion,
[51:21] Speaker 2: that happened before the foul on David Raya. Plenty of
[51:23] Speaker 2: fouls that happened after it as well. And I think that's, again,
[51:26] Speaker 2: it comes back to what we were talking about with
[51:27] Speaker 2: VAR before. As soon as you slow these things down,
[51:29] Speaker 2: it brings all of that stuff to light. And then
[51:31] Speaker 2: suddenly people are like, why is that a foul and
[51:33] Speaker 2: this one not a foul? And we really just, because
[51:36] Speaker 2: then it just sort of looks like you're having preferential
[51:38] Speaker 2: treatment to one team versus the other. So I think
[51:42] Speaker 2: something is going to have to be done about how
[51:44] Speaker 2: contact is refereed in these situations today. because set pieces
[51:48] Speaker 2: are becoming so overpowered. But yeah, and I sort of,
[51:52] Speaker 2: I agree with you in the sense that, you know,
[51:54] Speaker 2: football is all about iteration, right? It's about one team
[51:57] Speaker 2: finding a way of doing things that allows them to
[51:59] Speaker 2: have an advantage for a while and other teams finding
[52:00] Speaker 2: ways of stopping that. I'm sure that will happen with
[52:02] Speaker 2: set pieces. But I kind of, to come back to
[52:05] Speaker 2: Hamza's point, the bigger worry that I have with set
[52:08] Speaker 2: pieces is the knock-on effect it's having on open play stuff, right?
[52:11] Speaker 2: And so we're talking about football is all about iteration, right?
[52:15] Speaker 2: That's absolutely true. But what's happened in the situation where
[52:18] Speaker 2: Hamza's describing where it's becoming harder to score in open play,
[52:22] Speaker 2: what you end up doing then is iterating set pieces
[52:24] Speaker 2: to make them better and then not worrying about open
[52:27] Speaker 2: play really at all beyond, as you said, well, you know,
[52:30] Speaker 2: if the game is becoming more physical and more direct,
[52:32] Speaker 2: then we can just be more conservative in open play,
[52:35] Speaker 2: try and generate as many set piece situations and then
[52:38] Speaker 2: iterate them better. And I think that sort of worries
[52:41] Speaker 2: me because, as I said before, I think, you know,
[52:44] Speaker 2: football is... Football is the open play bits, right? Obviously,
[52:47] Speaker 2: set pieces are part of the game. Set pieces were
[52:50] Speaker 2: designed as a way of getting the ball back into play.
[52:52] Speaker 2: And I feel as though if we push the game
[52:54] Speaker 2: in a certain direction where we're emphasising the parts of
[52:58] Speaker 2: the game that were peripheral at one point to the
[53:01] Speaker 2: detriment of what the game was, I think it becomes problematic.
[53:04] Speaker 2: Now that's, again, I want to caveat, set pieces are
[53:07] Speaker 2: a part of the game. I don't think Arsenal... being
[53:11] Speaker 2: able to optimize from set pieces is cheating. I think
[53:13] Speaker 2: it's really good. I think that's what football should be about.
[53:16] Speaker 2: But I've always said this.
[53:17] Speaker 1: I think it's cheating.
[53:18] Speaker 2: You think it's cheating. But I've always said this, that
[53:21] Speaker 2: the game as an entertaining spectacle or as a, in
[53:25] Speaker 2: terms of the meta big picture stuff is always being
[53:28] Speaker 2: officiated by the owners of the league. So if the
[53:31] Speaker 2: owners of the league think it's becoming less entertaining or
[53:34] Speaker 2: if the game is being devalued from what it originally was,
[53:37] Speaker 2: They're well within their rights to change the rules. We
[53:40] Speaker 2: see this happening with the offside law all the time, right?
[53:42] Speaker 2: The offside law is designed to stop people, you know,
[53:46] Speaker 2: basically goal hanging to make the size of the pitch
[53:49] Speaker 2: workable with your back line.
[53:51] Speaker 1: It's not to rule out fractional differences.
[53:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, right. And again, through the years, it changed, right?
[53:56] Speaker 2: When teams got better and better and better at defending
[53:58] Speaker 2: and goals were reduced, they softened the offside rules to
[54:01] Speaker 2: make it easier for teams to score. And I think
[54:04] Speaker 2: you could do the same thing and obviously it would
[54:06] Speaker 2: be in the other direction, but What you're trying to
[54:08] Speaker 2: do is, again, find ways of encouraging teams to score
[54:11] Speaker 2: in open play to make the open play aspect more attractive.
[54:15] Speaker 3: That's fair, right?
[54:15] Speaker 1: Because I think it's important to note there, it's easy
[54:18] Speaker 1: to get carried away thinking about these incidents. The question being,
[54:21] Speaker 1: is the incident itself boring? We talked about that earlier
[54:24] Speaker 1: with West Ham Arsenal. My opinion, and I think other people,
[54:27] Speaker 1: some people share this opinion as well, watching that incident
[54:30] Speaker 1: is actually quite exciting. What happens, the outcome of that
[54:34] Speaker 1: is a thrilling piece of entertainment. What isn't exciting is
[54:37] Speaker 1: the way that Arsenal play the rest of the time
[54:39] Speaker 1: because they're relying on those moments, right? And that's what
[54:41] Speaker 1: you're saying. If you know you can score with set
[54:44] Speaker 1: pieces and therefore that impacts the way you play more
[54:47] Speaker 1: aggressively in open play, it means that most of the
[54:49] Speaker 1: 90 minutes is then boring despite some of the short
[54:52] Speaker 1: elements of it are exciting.
[54:53] Speaker 3: There's a word John used in the WhatsApp group earlier
[54:55] Speaker 3: that I think I can let my point all to
[54:57] Speaker 3: this is the hyper-financialization of everything because that makes the
[55:00] Speaker 3: competitiveness so much more important because there's shareholders at stake now.
[55:05] Speaker 3: So the same as like every company has to have
[55:06] Speaker 3: constant growth. So like your Cadbury's cream eggs taste worse
[55:09] Speaker 3: and they're smaller. Because you have to have constant growth.
[55:12] Speaker 3: You can't really change it that much. Just make it
[55:13] Speaker 3: out of palm oil. It's fine. So this is what happens.
[55:16] Speaker 3: So then you can just minimize. If you're a manager
[55:18] Speaker 3: and you're trying to appease the shareholders.
[55:21] Speaker 1: JJ's found out about palm oil.
[55:23] Speaker 2: He's heard about palm oil.
[55:25] Speaker 1: Oh, no.
[55:26] Speaker 3: Look, all us spies know everything.
[55:28] Speaker 1: Next he's going to hear about cashew nuts.
[55:30] Speaker 2: Go on.
[55:33] Speaker 3: So if you're a manager, eventually, a central, say a Chelsea,
[55:37] Speaker 3: I suppose, your eventual boss is the shareholders, right? That's
[55:39] Speaker 3: really kind of what it is. So if you have
[55:41] Speaker 3: to win, you have to find ways of control. So
[55:43] Speaker 3: the way you're getting control is by minimizing risk. That's
[55:46] Speaker 3: what you can do. You can turn everything into a
[55:48] Speaker 3: set play. And there was the first goal that Man
[55:51] Speaker 3: City scored against Crystal Palace, Phil Foden did that backheel
[55:54] Speaker 3: to put Semenyo through on goal. You can't really coach that.
[55:57] Speaker 3: You can, but the intuition and the magic and the
[56:00] Speaker 3: genius behind that, that's what opened them up eventually because
[56:03] Speaker 3: the palace was just being worked around all the time.
[56:05] Speaker 3: But that's how you can open them up. You can't
[56:07] Speaker 3: really coach it. You can't guarantee everything will happen. That
[56:09] Speaker 3: is a kind of a risk that some managers will
[56:11] Speaker 3: be like, yes, I wanted him to do that. But
[56:13] Speaker 3: actually you don't say that. And now do a clever
[56:15] Speaker 3: backheel to disrupt everything. You'll find ways to try and
[56:17] Speaker 3: drag them one way and do this. But everyone is
[56:19] Speaker 3: so well-drilled, everyone is so coached, you've got total control.
[56:22] Speaker 3: And it means that set pieces are the ultimate controllable
[56:25] Speaker 3: way to generate high-quality chances to score, because it's right
[56:28] Speaker 3: next to the goal, and you know you can do it.
[56:30] Speaker 3: So it will have to be that rules change, otherwise
[56:32] Speaker 3: it will be something different. Interestingly, I was doing a
[56:35] Speaker 3: bit of research on set pieces at the World Cup
[56:36] Speaker 3: for a thing that I was doing recently, and the
[56:39] Speaker 3: technical group, whatever they're called, the FIFA's technical study group,
[56:42] Speaker 3: says that it's Gilberto Silva, somewhat ironically the ex-Arsenal player,
[56:47] Speaker 3: who's talking about it, says.
[56:49] Speaker 3: They think it's unlikely that set pieces will define this
[56:52] Speaker 3: year's World Cup. Right. He says, I'm interested to see
[56:56] Speaker 3: how the other teams approach this. We've seen this season
[56:57] Speaker 3: in the Premier League with Arsenal. In the last few years,
[56:59] Speaker 3: corner kicks and long balls were not used as much
[57:02] Speaker 3: as compared to when I played. I'm not so sure
[57:04] Speaker 3: the World Cup will be the same because you don't
[57:06] Speaker 3: have as much time to prepare a team for these tournaments.
[57:08] Speaker 3: I disagree with that point. I think you can definitely
[57:10] Speaker 3: do routines in your small sessions.
[57:12] Speaker 2: Sure.
[57:12] Speaker 3: And you can build, it's easier to drill a defence
[57:14] Speaker 3: and make them harder to break down and make you
[57:16] Speaker 3: risk averse.
[57:16] Speaker 1: If anything, international tournament football is often a bit more
[57:19] Speaker 1: like that.
[57:21] Speaker 3: Well, remember 2018 World Cup? So like the World Cup
[57:23] Speaker 3: of set pieces, 30%, 30.18% of goals in the 2018
[57:26] Speaker 3: World Cup were set pieces. It's way more of you
[57:29] Speaker 3: include penalties, which is what the numbers when it's like
[57:31] Speaker 3: 44% include penalties. Weirdly, in the 2022 World Cup, it
[57:35] Speaker 3: dropped all the way down to 14.5%. And I haven't
[57:39] Speaker 3: done anywhere near enough research to find out why that is.
[57:41] Speaker 3: I have no idea why that is.
[57:42] Speaker 2: I wonder if it's refereeing, because a lot of this
[57:44] Speaker 2: just comes... The great counter example for what's happening in
[57:48] Speaker 2: the Premier League is in the Champions League, right? Obviously,
[57:51] Speaker 2: the Premier League teams have still been good from set
[57:54] Speaker 2: pieces in the Champions League. Partially because the teams they're
[57:56] Speaker 2: playing against can't compete with that. But I also think referees,
[58:00] Speaker 2: they officiate those games way more strictly. And so you're
[58:03] Speaker 2: less likely to get these things happening. And I wonder
[58:05] Speaker 2: if that is going to happen in the... Because in
[58:07] Speaker 2: the 2018 World Cup was where they started implementing penalties
[58:12] Speaker 2: from grappling in the box. I remember England maybe got
[58:16] Speaker 2: a penalty in that way.
[58:18] Speaker 3: They scored nine from set pieces, I think it was.
[58:20] Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think, I wonder whether or not, again,
[58:22] Speaker 2: it's going to come down like how harshly do you
[58:24] Speaker 2: referee those things? Are we going to see maybe penalties
[58:26] Speaker 2: go up and set piece goals go down?
[58:27] Speaker 4: Players and coaches and managers are acutely aware of this.
[58:31] Speaker 4: We spoke to Esri Konza back in November on England
[58:34] Speaker 4: duty and we spoke about set pieces in England and
[58:37] Speaker 4: then in Europe with Aston Villa in the Europa League
[58:40] Speaker 4: and then international football. And he said, yeah, it's like
[58:42] Speaker 4: very different. We prepare our routines differently because we know
[58:45] Speaker 4: that they're refereed differently. We can get away with a
[58:47] Speaker 4: lot more in the Premier League, but we have to
[58:49] Speaker 4: use different routines in Europe. And what I think is
[58:53] Speaker 4: also just on what JJ was mentioning earlier is really
[58:56] Speaker 4: interesting is that you actually have these competing ideas, right?
[58:59] Speaker 4: So you have, as you mentioned, that financialization and the
[59:03] Speaker 4: drive there to optimize and to try and eke out
[59:06] Speaker 4: advantage from every single routine, every single aspect of football.
[59:10] Speaker 4: And that may be using set pieces in that way,
[59:13] Speaker 4: but you also have, and this is true across football,
[59:17] Speaker 4: just romantics that actually like attacking fun football. And there's
[59:22] Speaker 4: a really, really interesting piece that Oliver Kaye did a
[59:25] Speaker 4: few months ago, speaking to coaches and sporting directors and
[59:29] Speaker 4: about how Mikel Arteta's football is viewed. And I thought
[59:32] Speaker 4: that was really interesting because you actually saw some people
[59:34] Speaker 4: that very, very sort of admired a lot of what
[59:39] Speaker 4: Mikel was doing. And I found it really interesting when
[59:41] Speaker 4: I spoke to the sporting directors and coaches and players
[59:45] Speaker 4: that I go to, they actually had very, very different feelings.
[59:50] Speaker 4: One of the sporting directors I spoke to just said,
[59:53] Speaker 4: I hate that way of playing. I want my manager
[59:56] Speaker 4: to play attacking football. That's what I enjoy. A technical
[59:59] Speaker 4: director I spoke to said pretty much the same thing.
[1:00:03] Speaker 4: A coach that knows Mikel fairly well also just went, yeah,
[1:00:10] Speaker 4: that's not how I really want to play. I want
[1:00:12] Speaker 4: my players to enjoy it. And you can see other
[1:00:15] Speaker 4: coaches like Vincent Kompany and Ashley Cole, two examples that
[1:00:19] Speaker 4: are really good because they said, we know what it's
[1:00:22] Speaker 4: like to be a defender. We don't want our players
[1:00:24] Speaker 4: to play like that. We want to play a game
[1:00:26] Speaker 4: where players are enjoying themselves and having fun the spectators
[1:00:28] Speaker 4: love it and that's not to say spectators don't love
[1:00:31] Speaker 4: watching Arsenal I think Arsenal fans are enjoying them winning
[1:00:33] Speaker 4: matches obviously that goes without saying I know a couple
[1:00:36] Speaker 4: of them.
[1:00:36] Speaker 1: That aren't enjoying watching but are enjoying the winning.
[1:00:40] Speaker 4: And it's important to have diversity and I think when
[1:00:42] Speaker 4: we think about a few years ago there's a criticism
[1:00:44] Speaker 4: of everyone's trying to play like Pep uh I mean
[1:00:47] Speaker 4: it's not Pep's fault that everyone else copied him and
[1:00:48] Speaker 4: did like a crap job of it right and that's
[1:00:51] Speaker 4: a generalization but You see what I mean? So it's
[1:00:53] Speaker 4: important to have diversity. But nonetheless, I think there are
[1:00:55] Speaker 4: a lot of football romantics out there that want to
[1:00:57] Speaker 4: have the ball on the floor. They want to have
[1:00:59] Speaker 4: technical players and they want to see magic on the
[1:01:01] Speaker 4: pitch rather than games settled by we've won a throw
[1:01:05] Speaker 4: in because it's really easy to kick the ball in
[1:01:07] Speaker 4: behind a fullback and press him. So he kicks it out.
[1:01:09] Speaker 4: And now we're going to use that to launch the
[1:01:10] Speaker 4: ball into the box and then get a second phase
[1:01:12] Speaker 4: or third phase shot.
[1:01:13] Speaker 3: As a football romantic, I totally agree with that. But
[1:01:15] Speaker 3: I can also appreciate the unbelievable job that Arteta has
[1:01:18] Speaker 3: done in doing this. So if he doesn't win, this
[1:01:22] Speaker 3: is a harsh way of pointing out, and obviously meant
[1:01:24] Speaker 3: with caveats, however, he's failed. So I'd imagine he wants
[1:01:29] Speaker 3: to play this football. He was a beautiful footballer to watch.
[1:01:31] Speaker 3: He's lovely, like number six stuff. But maybe he'll do
[1:01:35] Speaker 3: that once he's already won something. You have to get
[1:01:38] Speaker 3: that psychological hurdle out of the way.
[1:01:39] Speaker 1: He's in his David Moyes era.
[1:01:41] Speaker 3: He's got to win. And he's found a way to
[1:01:44] Speaker 3: break the game and to win.
[1:01:45] Speaker 1: He's going to win.
[1:01:46] Speaker 3: At the World Cup, if Scotland score from a corner,
[1:01:48] Speaker 3: I'm not going to care if that's what we do.
[1:01:49] Speaker 3: It's normally the way that a smaller team can find
[1:01:51] Speaker 3: an advantage.
[1:01:52] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:01:52] Speaker 3: Hypothesis in the video that i've done that will come
[1:01:54] Speaker 3: out and people will hate and i'm a failure is
[1:01:58] Speaker 3: largely that small teams will i mean that's what they'll
[1:02:00] Speaker 3: do this is how they'll gain an advantage because that's
[1:02:03] Speaker 3: the obvious way to do it but the big teams
[1:02:04] Speaker 3: are now also going to be as good at this
[1:02:07] Speaker 3: and it's it's.
[1:02:08] Speaker 2: Not the coach's job to play attractive football it's the
[1:02:10] Speaker 2: coach's job to win sure if you want your league
[1:02:13] Speaker 2: to play attractive football that's on the owners of the
[1:02:15] Speaker 2: league that's always been my position i thought we shouldn't
[1:02:17] Speaker 2: get mad at coaches for doing everything they can to win.
[1:02:20] Speaker 1: No, sure.
[1:02:20] Speaker 2: And that's why I think all of this comes down to,
[1:02:22] Speaker 2: will the Premier League say, actually, we don't want the
[1:02:24] Speaker 2: league to look like this. We're going to change the
[1:02:25] Speaker 2: rules to make it harder for the team.
[1:02:27] Speaker 4: Mikel is thinking originally, credit to him.
[1:02:29] Speaker 1: That's true. It's very original thinking to bring the pickpocket in.
[1:02:32] Speaker 1: You know, very original. Anyway, listen, we've got to finish.
[1:02:36] Speaker 1: JJ Bull, thank you.
[1:02:37] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[1:02:38] Speaker 1: John, thank you. Thanks. Hamza, thank you.
[1:02:40] Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
[1:02:40] Speaker 1: Did you enjoy yourself?
[1:02:41] Speaker 3: I really did.
[1:02:41] Speaker 2: A good debut?
[1:02:43] Speaker 3: Yes, very good debut.
[1:02:44] Speaker 1: Also, Steve Hankey, thank you.
[1:02:46] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[1:02:46] Speaker 1: We'll be back, by the way, on... Let me just
[1:02:49] Speaker 1: tell you when we'll be back.
[1:02:51] Speaker 3: Oh, Saturday.
[1:02:52] Speaker 1: We're back on Saturday. We've got a Ring for Analysis episode. Oh,
[1:02:54] Speaker 1: we're going to talk all about Sassuolo.
[1:02:56] Speaker 3: Very exciting.
[1:02:57] Speaker 1: Very exciting. And then we're on Sunday. We'll be here
[1:03:01] Speaker 1: for a live stream post Newcastle United and West Ham United.
[1:03:06] Speaker 1: It'll be me and you, John, and.
[1:03:08] Speaker 3: Is it just us?
[1:03:09] Speaker 1: Is it?
[1:03:09] Speaker 4: I don't know.
[1:03:10] Speaker 3: Maybe I haven't booked it. Got into the calendar.
[1:03:11] Speaker 1: If I'm not booked it, John, it's just me and you, buddy.
[1:03:16] Speaker 3: Whee!
[1:03:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. Christ, I'm going to have to actively watch
[1:03:20] Speaker 1: that one. And then, yeah, we're back on Monday. Also,
[1:03:24] Speaker 1: we are aware that our colleague, Laurie Whitwell, did publish
[1:03:27] Speaker 1: the fact that I think it's, what does he say?
[1:03:29] Speaker 1: He said Manchester United's football leaders are set to recommend
[1:03:32] Speaker 1: Michael Carrick will be offered the permanent head coach role.
[1:03:34] Speaker 1: That hasn't happened yet. No. If that does happen, we'll
[1:03:36] Speaker 1: talk about it. But thanks very much, everyone. Goodbye!
[1:03:54] Speaker 2: You

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