# Rating Arsenal_s transfer window_ Everton fiasco _ Man City_s new midfield(M4A_128K)

An episode of [Footbal Beyond the Pitch](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6821032841), 20 Oct 2026, 1 h 17 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/75863255/rating_arsenal_s_transfer_window_everton_fiasco_man_city_s_new_midfield_m4a_128k.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:03] Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Tifo Football Podcast. I'm Joe
[0:08] Speaker 1: Devine and today I'm delighted to be joined by Kaya Kainé.
[0:11] Speaker 1: Hello Joe. Alright buddy. Very good, thank you. John McKenzie.
[0:15] Speaker 1: What's up? What is up?
[0:18] Speaker 2: Stuff.
[0:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, stuff is up. Anyway. And also JPB's here, Jack Pittersbrook.
[0:22] Speaker 2: Hi Joe.
[0:23] Speaker 1: Alright buddy, how's it going?
[0:24] Speaker 2: Fantastic.
[0:25] Speaker 1: Good job. Now, what did we talk about? Oh, also
[0:27] Speaker 1: Steve Hankey's here. Hello Joe.
[0:28] Speaker 3: Hello.
[0:29] Speaker 2: I was trying to do.
[0:31] Speaker 1: What was that? I was trying to do... Is that
[0:32] Speaker 1: like a What's Up Doc kind of thing?
[0:34] Speaker 4: It's a bit in the show where we talk about
[0:35] Speaker 4: the old archives from days of yore in the 20th century.
[0:38] Speaker 4: And I was trying to do one of those voices
[0:40] Speaker 4: and obviously what happened came out.
[0:43] Speaker 2: Oh.
[0:45] Speaker 1: Hello, Joe. Wow.
[0:50] Speaker 4: That's my new thing.
[0:53] Speaker 1: Something got cut. You can keep that in, Steve, if
[0:56] Speaker 1: you want. Now, what did we talk about on today's show? Well,
[1:00] Speaker 1: so many interesting things. We assess the summer transfer window.
[1:04] Speaker 1: Now it has shut. We start with the Arsenal as
[1:07] Speaker 1: the reigning Premier League champions. Very exciting conversation there. But
[1:11] Speaker 1: John has some burning hot takes. Were they burning hot? No.
[1:15] Speaker 1: They were hot takes for me.
[1:17] Speaker 2: For you, they were.
[1:17] Speaker 1: I actually expressed an opinion. What you did was in
[1:21] Speaker 1: an Arsenal section, you said, I'm going to say two
[1:23] Speaker 1: things that might be controversial now. And I got the
[1:25] Speaker 1: hair on the back of my neck. I got very excited.
[1:27] Speaker 1: So we did that. Who amongst us has flown business
[1:30] Speaker 1: class on a plane? And what is it like? The
[1:32] Speaker 1: answer may surprise you. Do you have a deep respect
[1:37] Speaker 1: for the value of money? And if not, why not?
[1:40] Speaker 1: We ask that question as well. Then we play a rondo,
[1:42] Speaker 1: a very competitive, I have to say, perhaps the most
[1:45] Speaker 1: competitive rondo we've ever had. after the rondo Everton had
[1:50] Speaker 1: a hectic deadline day with their owners upsetting the fan
[1:53] Speaker 1: base quite a lot we talk about the cost of
[1:54] Speaker 1: the toffee donut that comes up in that section Jack
[1:58] Speaker 1: ventures into his mind palace to recall from memory Tottenham's
[2:02] Speaker 1: entire transfer window in ascending order including fees very impressive
[2:06] Speaker 1: I try and catch him out with a tricky order
[2:07] Speaker 1: but he's way ahead of me can you scrape and
[2:11] Speaker 1: have an onus well Jack was unsure but we reassure
[2:14] Speaker 1: him that it is fine can you scrape a goal
[2:16] Speaker 1: can you have An onus. Who's to say? Anyway, then
[2:22] Speaker 1: we go back to.
[2:23] Speaker 2: Oh, yes.
[2:24] Speaker 1: Should we go back to the time of leaving freshly
[2:26] Speaker 1: baked pies on windowsills like we did in the days
[2:30] Speaker 1: of yore? The word owners is just so funny. It's
[2:36] Speaker 1: never appeared so funny to me. It was a good show,
[2:39] Speaker 1: by the way. We move on to Manchester City. Listen,
[2:42] Speaker 1: Manchester City spent a lot of money on New Midfield.
[2:44] Speaker 1: We talk about their New Midfield. And then we give a...
[2:46] Speaker 1: A bit editorialising going on here. Right. Me? No, no,
[2:50] Speaker 1: just from Steve Hankey.
[2:52] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
[2:53] Speaker 1: Listen, I'm skipping over some of the stuff.
[2:54] Speaker 5: We didn't mention how much Arsenal spent this window, but
[2:57] Speaker 5: they spent a lot of money as well.
[2:58] Speaker 1: Not as much. The bit that we left out of
[3:00] Speaker 1: that whole Arsenal conversation was how much money they've spent
[3:02] Speaker 1: over the last six years. Last three years... 600 million.
[3:06] Speaker 1: 600 million. Net spend, 400 million. Yeah. And Kai only
[3:09] Speaker 1: gives the transfer window rating a six. Wait till you
[3:11] Speaker 1: get to that bit. It's all about the here and now.
[3:13] Speaker 1: Bruno Guimarães, not enough for me. I want more. I
[3:16] Speaker 1: want one of the best players in the world. You
[3:18] Speaker 1: had a good show today. And then we give a
[3:21] Speaker 1: vaguely accurate pricey of the end of the Hundred Years' War.
[3:25] Speaker 1: If you want to listen to Jack Pitbrook talk about
[3:27] Speaker 1: the Hundred Years' War, stick around. Or just skip to
[3:30] Speaker 1: the end. That's the best bit. That's the best bit.
[3:32] Speaker 1: And I stake my claim to the French throne. There
[3:35] Speaker 1: you go. And that was the whole show, wasn't it?
[3:37] Speaker 1: Did I miss anything, Steve?
[3:38] Speaker 4: A few of my bits of editorialising, but hey, what's new?
[3:42] Speaker 1: It was for the best. Now, Ring for Analysis this week,
[3:45] Speaker 1: by the way, not on YouTube, Ring for Analysis, but
[3:47] Speaker 1: it comes out on Saturday on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever
[3:50] Speaker 1: you get your audio podcasts. Have a listen to that.
[3:53] Speaker 1: That's me and John talking about Jose Mourinho's Real Madrid rebuild.
[3:57] Speaker 1: And if you like that. Oh, yeah. What if you
[3:58] Speaker 1: like that, John? You might like the audio book of
[4:01] Speaker 1: my book. Right. Which has got me talking. It's behind you,
[4:04] Speaker 1: your book, by the way.
[4:05] Speaker 2: That's not the audiobook.
[4:06] Speaker 1: No, that's your book. That's the dead tree version. That's
[4:09] Speaker 1: what they call it. That's the dead tree version of
[4:12] Speaker 1: your book. The Spectre of Pep, How Guardiola Haunts Modern Football,
[4:16] Speaker 1: the audiobook read by none other than me.
[4:19] Speaker 2: And a bit of me.
[4:20] Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, you struggle through the introduction. That's true.
[4:23] Speaker 1: And then I take the reins. Yeah, I bring us
[4:25] Speaker 1: home supremely. You can get that on wherever the hell
[4:28] Speaker 1: you get audiobooks these days, Audible or on Google or whatever. Yeah,
[4:31] Speaker 1: if you have a Spotify premium account. Oh, can you?
[4:33] Speaker 1: You can listen to it for free. Really? Yeah. Well,
[4:36] Speaker 1: I mean, you're paying for your Spotify premium account, so
[4:38] Speaker 1: it's not free, is it? There's no such thing as
[4:39] Speaker 1: a free lunch, Joe. No, that's true. I still owe
[4:42] Speaker 1: you that lunch. Yeah, I forgot about that. We've got
[4:44] Speaker 1: to have that lunch. Now, anyway, post Arsenal Chelsea on Sunday, John, Jack,
[4:49] Speaker 1: Collins and I will be doing a live stream as well.
[4:51] Speaker 1: And then next Tuesday, we've got a whole new exciting
[4:54] Speaker 1: show for you there as well. So that's it. That's it.
[4:57] Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed today's show. I hope. Onus. Well,
[5:12] Speaker 1: where else to begin, of course? A couple of days
[5:15] Speaker 1: after the transfer window closes. Then with Arsenal, because the
[5:20] Speaker 1: transfer window officially closed on Tuesday, bringing an end to
[5:24] Speaker 1: an interesting summer. for Premier League champions, Arsenal. The club
[5:28] Speaker 1: have made four first-team signings, haven't they? Can you guess
[5:32] Speaker 1: them off the top of your head, Kaya? Yes. Can
[5:34] Speaker 1: you recite them? Yes. Go. I'll start with the biggest,
[5:37] Speaker 1: Ilan Mellier. Okay, yeah. Well, that's just very rude, isn't it?
[5:40] Speaker 2: A real coot.
[5:40] Speaker 1: It's actually quite rude about Ilan Mellier. I wasn't. He's
[5:43] Speaker 1: the tallest player. He is the biggest. Oh, you mean
[5:46] Speaker 1: physically the biggest.
[5:46] Speaker 2: You can't argue with that.
[5:47] Speaker 1: He's got you there. That's true. He's got me. I'll
[5:49] Speaker 1: rescind what I said. Bruno Guimaraes. Where did he come
[5:52] Speaker 1: from and how much did he cost, though? Leeds, he cost... Free.
[5:55] Speaker 1: He cost free, exactly. Okay, BG. BG, 75 mil? Yeah, 75.
[6:00] Speaker 6: Christoph Sollis, great deal at 35 million pounds from Club Brugge.
[6:04] Speaker 1: I've got 40 million euros written here. That's the same thing. No, no,
[6:07] Speaker 1: it's a different currency, of course, so he's wrong there.
[6:10] Speaker 1: Club Brugge, yeah.
[6:12] Speaker 6: And then the final one is Esri Konca from Arsenal.
[6:15] Speaker 6: Do you want that in pounds or euros?
[6:17] Speaker 1: The final and most forgettable. That's absolutely right. That's actually not. Right,
[6:21] Speaker 1: there's technically a fifth. Well, so that's mean. The fifth
[6:24] Speaker 1: is technically Piero in Capier. I wasn't, yeah. Not a
[6:28] Speaker 1: proper fan. Not a real player. You only asked me
[6:30] Speaker 1: for four. Anyway, the thing is, the problem with their
[6:33] Speaker 1: transfer window, as we all know, is that they missed
[6:35] Speaker 1: out on a truly elite attacking player. A second one.
[6:39] Speaker 1: Does not count. After failed attempts to sign Vinicius Junior,
[6:42] Speaker 1: Morgan Rodgers, Julian Alvarez, leaving some... disappointed at the outcome
[6:48] Speaker 1: of this window. Others claiming that it was all intentional
[6:51] Speaker 1: and that Arteta knew this was going to happen from 2019.
[6:55] Speaker 1: James McNicholas' inside Arsenal's transfer window piece on The Athletic,
[6:58] Speaker 1: which is very good, by the way, and is worth reading.
[7:01] Speaker 1: It starts with this quote that I found interesting from
[7:03] Speaker 1: Mikel Arteta. This is after the loss to PSG in
[7:06] Speaker 1: the Champions League final at the end of last season.
[7:08] Speaker 1: Mikel Arteta says, we want to reach another level. We're
[7:11] Speaker 1: going to have to show that ambition because we are
[7:14] Speaker 1: more than capable of doing it, but it's going to
[7:16] Speaker 1: demand us to be very, very ambitious, very fast, and
[7:20] Speaker 1: very smart. Which I guess didn't really happen, Kaya. Maybe
[7:24] Speaker 1: not completely. How are we rating Arsenal's window? Because I
[7:28] Speaker 1: can sort of see it from both sides. Do you
[7:30] Speaker 1: want a rating out of 10? However you want to
[7:33] Speaker 1: interpret that.
[7:34] Speaker 2: I would go.
[7:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, let's actually do it out of 10 at some point.
[7:36] Speaker 6: Yeah, given the promise from the start of the window
[7:39] Speaker 6: and the excitement around it.
[7:41] Speaker 1: Number only, context later. All right, six. Six, Jack? Solid seven.
[7:45] Speaker 1: Solid seven, John? I know you hate these sorts of games,
[7:47] Speaker 1: but just humour me. 6.75. There you go, great. Okay, context, Kyle?
[7:54] Speaker 6: So the context for me is that I think... going
[7:57] Speaker 6: into this season, Arsenal's attack is probably actually a little
[7:59] Speaker 6: bit weaker than it was last season. So Christos Solis.
[8:02] Speaker 1: Because they added Christos Solis.
[8:03] Speaker 6: No, because they got rid of Leandro Trossard and Gabriel Martinelli.
[8:07] Speaker 1: And they added Christos Solis. I know, I know. He
[8:09] Speaker 1: had that great first game, didn't he?
[8:10] Speaker 6: Yeah, and he'll have a great third game too. But yeah,
[8:13] Speaker 6: I think compared to the strength and depth Arsenal had
[8:16] Speaker 6: last summer and it was all about for Arsenal having
[8:19] Speaker 6: quality backups in every single position. Now, on the left-hand
[8:23] Speaker 6: side of the attack, they've got Solis, who does look
[8:26] Speaker 6: promising from the first few games. And then the backup
[8:28] Speaker 6: to that is Ebreche Eze, who has never massively convinced
[8:32] Speaker 6: on the left for Arsenal. He had one really good
[8:34] Speaker 6: game against Manchester City and then kind of never got
[8:36] Speaker 6: used there again. He had a good second half against
[8:39] Speaker 6: Aston Villa, but I think people have maybe got a
[8:40] Speaker 6: bit big on it because they're kind of looking for
[8:43] Speaker 6: a solution on the left-hand side. Then there's talk of
[8:45] Speaker 6: Noni Madaweke being an option on the left-hand side. That
[8:47] Speaker 6: happened a bit last season, but it didn't really convince.
[8:49] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[8:50] Speaker 6: So from that side of the window, it's a bit disappointing.
[8:53] Speaker 6: But then when you look at the other bits of
[8:54] Speaker 6: the squad that needed addressing, so they did probably need
[8:56] Speaker 6: a right-sided centre-back because William Saliba's out.
[8:58] Speaker 1: For a long time. They did probably need... Bang, Kansa.
[9:01] Speaker 6: There you go, bang, Kansa. They did probably need another
[9:03] Speaker 6: midfielder because Christian Norgard left and they could... And last season,
[9:07] Speaker 6: Declan Rice and Martin Zibmendi had to play themselves into
[9:09] Speaker 6: the ground.
[9:10] Speaker 1: Bang, Bruno G. Exactly.
[9:12] Speaker 6: So why are you saying it's a six? Because I
[9:14] Speaker 6: think the big focus for Arsenal going forward and... On
[9:18] Speaker 6: the Sunday live stream that we did, we mentioned a
[9:20] Speaker 6: Mikel Arteta quote where he spoke about you need individuals
[9:24] Speaker 6: who have moments of magic that can change games, basically.
[9:27] Speaker 6: And Arsenal still don't necessarily really have that in attack,
[9:30] Speaker 6: but Kai Osaka is probably the closest they have. But
[9:33] Speaker 6: beyond that, there's not an awful lot of individual brilliance.
[9:35] Speaker 6: They're collectively really strong and the goals they've scored this
[9:39] Speaker 6: season mostly have suggested that. And the goal against Aston
[9:41] Speaker 6: Villa that won the game is a really lovely team goal.
[9:44] Speaker 6: But the way I've kind of described it to some
[9:45] Speaker 6: people is it's felt like you're sitting in premium economy.
[9:48] Speaker 6: You've got really good attackers and then you sort of
[9:50] Speaker 6: get a peer through the curtain up to business class.
[9:53] Speaker 6: You can see- What have they got up there? They've
[9:55] Speaker 6: got Vinicius Jr. They've got Julian Alvarez.
[9:57] Speaker 1: The way the analogy works is that you have to
[10:00] Speaker 1: you have to you have to analogize vinicius jr oh
[10:03] Speaker 1: oh with what that would be in business class so
[10:05] Speaker 1: is that the equivalent of a chair that turns into
[10:08] Speaker 1: a bed for example that's the vinicius.
[10:09] Speaker 6: Jr business class and julian alvarez is like 10 extra
[10:12] Speaker 6: movies that you can watch on your flight.
[10:15] Speaker 1: Right and that's rubbish everyone's got a phone these.
[10:17] Speaker 6: Days okay uh have you ever been on a plane
[10:19] Speaker 6: i've not been in business class.
[10:21] Speaker 1: On the quick pause have you ever been on business
[10:23] Speaker 1: class in a plane jack yes what's it like tell
[10:25] Speaker 1: us what it's like is it good uh it.
[10:28] Speaker 2: Feels great yeah leg room uh endless snacks endless drinks
[10:33] Speaker 2: yeah um do the people sometimes the tv rather than
[10:36] Speaker 2: being in the back of the seat in front of you.
[10:38] Speaker 3: Pops up from your armrest wow how about that uh
[10:42] Speaker 3: yeah it's pretty great it makes makes me feel like
[10:45] Speaker 3: um you know, like a football CEO or a technical director.
[10:49] Speaker 1: Yeah. Have you ever been in first class? No. That's crazy,
[10:53] Speaker 1: isn't it?
[10:53] Speaker 2: I've walked through first class.
[10:54] Speaker 1: Have you?
[10:55] Speaker 2: On your way to get out of the plane.
[10:56] Speaker 1: How about that? Incredible. Do the service people crawl towards
[11:00] Speaker 1: you on the floor in business class? Do they proffer... Please, sir,
[11:03] Speaker 1: take this safety pamphlet.
[11:05] Speaker 2: And then they say, did I say you're on the
[11:06] Speaker 2: TIFO podcast?
[11:07] Speaker 1: Yeah. That's the truth, isn't it? You know, it's great
[11:10] Speaker 1: being on the TIFO podcast. Still doesn't get you business
[11:12] Speaker 1: class on a plane, though. You said seven out of ten.
[11:15] Speaker 1: You think it's better than the Arsenal fan thinks. I'm
[11:17] Speaker 1: sort of inclined to agree with you. But why do
[11:19] Speaker 1: you say that?
[11:20] Speaker 2: Well, I just think they've... I think that the fact that...
[11:23] Speaker 2: I mean, look, I agree with the analysis that they
[11:27] Speaker 2: are short on attacking quality in the final third. But
[11:30] Speaker 2: I think that they... this model won the league for
[11:34] Speaker 2: them last year. Like they can win the league without
[11:37] Speaker 2: having nine out of, like nine out of 10 top
[11:40] Speaker 2: level players in the final third, because they have the
[11:43] Speaker 2: best defense in the world. They have a really clear
[11:45] Speaker 2: way of playing. They have a lot of depth. They've
[11:47] Speaker 2: lent into that depth. I think that, I think Bruno
[11:51] Speaker 2: and Consa are fantastic signings for that reason. And sure,
[11:55] Speaker 2: like would it, you know, their frontline would be more
[11:57] Speaker 2: exciting if they had an Alvarez or a Vinicius. or
[12:01] Speaker 2: someone of that level who they haven't signed. But I
[12:03] Speaker 2: just think that I just back them to score enough
[12:06] Speaker 2: goals over the season to win the league again. Because
[12:08] Speaker 2: I think, you know, it's not just about individual quality.
[12:12] Speaker 2: I know that Arteta said that, which is slightly odd
[12:14] Speaker 2: given that the way he's run Arsenal in the last
[12:16] Speaker 2: few years has been not relying on technical quality or
[12:20] Speaker 2: individual brilliance to score goals and win games. But I
[12:23] Speaker 2: just think they've still probably got enough.
[12:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that. I think also... I understand
[12:27] Speaker 1: the disappointment on the part of Arsenal fans, because when
[12:30] Speaker 1: you think that there's a chance that you're going to
[12:32] Speaker 1: sign Vinicius Junior or, you know, Morgan Rodgers, Julian Alvarez,
[12:36] Speaker 1: and then it doesn't happen, it can be, it's disappointing.
[12:39] Speaker 1: I get that because you were imagining something greater than
[12:43] Speaker 1: what you have and you end up with Christos, at least.
[12:45] Speaker 1: But I think that the reason I feel sympathetic towards
[12:49] Speaker 1: them as a club in the transfer window is is
[12:52] Speaker 1: it's hard to strengthen the best team it's harder to
[12:55] Speaker 1: do that than it is you know Spurs have spent
[12:57] Speaker 1: 400 million pounds or whatever and they've bought lots of
[13:01] Speaker 1: really good players but it's easier to do that when
[13:03] Speaker 1: you're Spurs because the squad was.
[13:04] Speaker 2: Worse because they've come 17th twice in a row.
[13:06] Speaker 1: Right they've come 17th twice in a row their players
[13:08] Speaker 1: are worse on average across the whole pitch so it's
[13:11] Speaker 1: easier to upgrade them and they still spent an awful
[13:13] Speaker 1: lot of money doing it whereas in the case of
[13:15] Speaker 1: Arsenal I quite like that Arteta quote because I think
[13:17] Speaker 1: he recognizes that We have a fantastic team. The only
[13:20] Speaker 1: thing that makes this team better, really, is, you know,
[13:24] Speaker 1: a truly elite attacking talent. And you might hear some
[13:27] Speaker 1: criticism from fans saying, well, maybe it would have been
[13:30] Speaker 1: better to go out there and get like a Pedro Neto,
[13:32] Speaker 1: for example, someone like that who's like at the level
[13:34] Speaker 1: below elite, and that would have improved the team. But
[13:37] Speaker 1: I'm just not totally convinced.
[13:38] Speaker 2: That that's the case.
[13:38] Speaker 1: They've had Neto-level... Yeah, they bought Eze last year.
[13:41] Speaker 2: They've had Neto-level wide players for a while. I don't
[13:43] Speaker 2: think Neto... I don't think like another 60 million player
[13:46] Speaker 2: would massively elevate them. beyond the level of the guys
[13:49] Speaker 2: they've already got. The question is, you know, can they
[13:51] Speaker 2: find a hundred plus million players? And maybe, maybe there's
[13:54] Speaker 2: a degree of, I mean, jealousy is probably too strong
[13:56] Speaker 2: a word, but a sense that if you look at
[13:58] Speaker 2: the other big six teams, obviously, you know, City have bought,
[14:02] Speaker 2: like other teams have bought a hundred million players, right?
[14:04] Speaker 2: You know, like Roger's going to Chelsea. City have obviously
[14:07] Speaker 2: got Enzo and Bouhadi and Anderson.
[14:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, they've got three.
[14:10] Speaker 2: And even Tottenham have got, like, Sandro Tonali's, like, 92.5,
[14:13] Speaker 2: I think potentially rising to 100. So other teams have spent, like,
[14:17] Speaker 2: that massive money. And maybe Arsenal fans, maybe there's a
[14:20] Speaker 2: little bit of a sense of, I would quite like that.
[14:23] Speaker 2: That looks fun. Why can't we have that? We're on
[14:25] Speaker 2: the league.
[14:25] Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that because reading
[14:27] Speaker 1: James's piece, there was clearly a theme across the summer
[14:29] Speaker 1: that Andre Berta, who's Arsenal's sporting director, did seem to
[14:33] Speaker 1: think on numerous occasions that players would be that they
[14:35] Speaker 1: were interested in were being overvalued by their clubs we
[14:37] Speaker 1: know that they were slow on the Morgan Rogers transfer
[14:40] Speaker 1: which left the possibility for Chelsea to kind of opportunistically
[14:43] Speaker 1: come in and take Rogers away but my question really
[14:46] Speaker 1: is do we think that Arsenal as champions are maybe
[14:49] Speaker 1: just a bit out of step in that regard with
[14:51] Speaker 1: other Premier League teams because we've seen many of them
[14:53] Speaker 1: in the traditional big six very willing as we say
[14:56] Speaker 1: to spend 100 million pounds Arsenal sort of looking at
[14:59] Speaker 1: Morgan Rodgers and saying, no, he's 80 million, not 116.
[15:01] Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know. It feels like, to a
[15:04] Speaker 1: certain extent, is it penny-pinching?
[15:07] Speaker 2: It could be, yeah, but it could be out of
[15:08] Speaker 2: step in a good way, hypothetically. Like, so many Premier
[15:12] Speaker 2: League teams have spent so much money this summer that
[15:15] Speaker 2: it might be, this is just hypothetical, but it might
[15:17] Speaker 2: be the case that in three or four years' time,
[15:19] Speaker 2: People will say, oh, you know, maybe it was smart
[15:22] Speaker 2: to not spend too much money at that moment in
[15:23] Speaker 2: the market when prices were super inflated and maybe keep
[15:27] Speaker 2: hold of that money. And maybe they will end up
[15:29] Speaker 2: spending that in a moment where the market is less
[15:31] Speaker 2: inflated or maybe a different bit of the market, like
[15:33] Speaker 2: not buying from the Premier League or whatever. So I
[15:36] Speaker 2: don't think I like being out of step with this
[15:40] Speaker 2: particular moment in the transfer window. I mean, it could
[15:43] Speaker 2: be the right thing. It could be the wrong thing,
[15:44] Speaker 2: but it's not. We don't really know at this point.
[15:47] Speaker 2: Fair enough.
[15:48] Speaker 1: John, Jack mentioned before that Arsenal's model won them the
[15:52] Speaker 1: Premier League last season, that they do have a team
[15:55] Speaker 1: that's capable of doing that. We know that that's the case.
[15:57] Speaker 1: We are, though, as we've said many times over the
[15:59] Speaker 1: last few weeks, in a shifting tactical meta. We're at
[16:02] Speaker 1: a period of time where what it takes to win
[16:04] Speaker 1: the Premier League is arguably changing. My question off the
[16:06] Speaker 1: back of Arsenal's transfer window to you is, do you
[16:09] Speaker 1: think that they have the personnel to be tactically flexible
[16:13] Speaker 1: enough to really compete?
[16:15] Speaker 2: I've got two.
[16:17] Speaker 1: potentially quite controversial things to say on this. Oh, okay.
[16:21] Speaker 1: When you do them, can you say one and then two? Yeah,
[16:23] Speaker 1: I'll do that. I know how you love that. Everyone goes, quiet.
[16:26] Speaker 5: Number one is, so I hear what people are saying,
[16:29] Speaker 5: Arsenal won the league last season, there's no reason why
[16:32] Speaker 5: they can't win the league again this season. But isn't
[16:35] Speaker 5: the point with Arsenal that with playing this model, which
[16:39] Speaker 5: hasn't focused on individuals... has meant that they've always had
[16:43] Speaker 5: this approach, which seems to me like we'll aim to
[16:45] Speaker 5: be the second best team and hope someone else isn't
[16:47] Speaker 5: good enough. And last season, they won the league without
[16:50] Speaker 5: a real title challenge. City came up from behind, from
[16:53] Speaker 5: miles behind, and nearly caught them up. I think that
[16:57] Speaker 5: Arteta knows that you can't continue to play at this
[17:00] Speaker 5: level and consistently win the league. If you want to
[17:03] Speaker 5: consistently win the league, you have to have those difference makers.
[17:06] Speaker 5: And I think that's what the original quote in that
[17:08] Speaker 5: piece by James McNicholas is about, right? He's saying, We
[17:11] Speaker 5: have now got ourselves to a position where we are
[17:13] Speaker 5: at the front of the queue in many respects. We
[17:16] Speaker 5: need to bring in those elite, elite players so that
[17:18] Speaker 5: we aren't having to rely on 1-0 wins against Aston
[17:21] Speaker 5: Villa and then doing a lot of squeaky bomb defending
[17:25] Speaker 5: at the end of the game and being in a
[17:27] Speaker 5: position where all it takes is a freak goal. and
[17:30] Speaker 5: you drop points. The second thing I want to say
[17:33] Speaker 5: about this is why did these elite players not want
[17:37] Speaker 5: to join Arsenal and how much does that have to
[17:40] Speaker 5: do with their play style? If you have someone like
[17:42] Speaker 5: Vinicius Junior who can stay at Real Madrid and play
[17:46] Speaker 5: a lot of games that are going to be much
[17:48] Speaker 5: less fraught than if you're playing at Arsenal, not to
[17:52] Speaker 5: mention the fact that you're going to be expected to do,
[17:55] Speaker 5: regardless of how much they fit him in the team
[17:57] Speaker 5: and say, we're going to carry you a little bit
[17:59] Speaker 5: out of possession. How much is that influencing these players
[18:02] Speaker 5: like Julian Alvarez and Vinicius Junior to be like, I
[18:06] Speaker 5: can have just a better quality of footballing life by
[18:10] Speaker 5: not joining these teams?
[18:11] Speaker 1: I think I can take apart number two, though. I
[18:13] Speaker 1: think in the case of Vinicius Junior and Julian Alvarez,
[18:16] Speaker 1: Alvarez wanted to join Barcelona and had reservations about coming
[18:20] Speaker 1: back to England. And Vinicius Junior, again, I read in
[18:24] Speaker 1: James's piece that, like, He likes the culture in Spain.
[18:27] Speaker 1: He wants to play in Spain. I don't think it's
[18:29] Speaker 1: because of Arsenal. I think it's because of England. You
[18:32] Speaker 1: don't think that comes into it at all? Maybe it does,
[18:34] Speaker 1: but I don't think it's the main factor. And Morgan
[18:36] Speaker 1: Rodgers did want to join Arsenal and then they fucked
[18:39] Speaker 1: around and lost him. But Morgan Rodgers is already, I guess,
[18:41] Speaker 1: playing in that primary context. He's already playing in England.
[18:43] Speaker 1: Morgan Rodgers also is not at the level of a
[18:46] Speaker 1: Vinicius Junior, right?
[18:47] Speaker 6: Don't burst my bubble about Morgan Rodgers. I think Arsenal
[18:51] Speaker 6: were praised at the time for not going... to the
[18:55] Speaker 6: level that Chelsea went to for Morgan Rodgers. But when
[18:57] Speaker 6: there's so few premium attacking talents available and you need one,
[19:01] Speaker 6: then does that kind of, are you kind of cutting
[19:03] Speaker 6: off your nose to spite your face a little bit
[19:04] Speaker 6: there in the sense that you're, yeah, you've saved yourself 20,
[19:08] Speaker 6: 30 million pounds, which probably Arsenal could afford, but you've
[19:12] Speaker 6: ended up without.
[19:13] Speaker 1: That's another Christos Solis, isn't it? Yes, another Christos Solis.
[19:15] Speaker 6: But you've ended up without the attacking sort of increase
[19:18] Speaker 6: in standards that you wanted. And As much as I
[19:20] Speaker 6: agree Morgan Rodgers isn't of the level of Vinicius Junior
[19:23] Speaker 6: in Alvarez, he is better than what Arsenal had on
[19:25] Speaker 6: the left last season.
[19:27] Speaker 5: And it was very clear in James' piece that he
[19:30] Speaker 5: was saying that Morgan Rodgers called on the actual move
[19:34] Speaker 5: because it felt as though they were more interested in
[19:36] Speaker 5: getting Vinicius Junior than him and that allowed Chelsea to
[19:39] Speaker 5: come in, I guess.
[19:40] Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think that's another thing that Arsenal fans
[19:42] Speaker 6: have had difficulty with this transfer window is Andrea Berta
[19:45] Speaker 6: has quite a reputation for being this plate spinner where
[19:49] Speaker 6: he goes for multiple candidates at a time, negotiates quite
[19:52] Speaker 6: publicly with multiple people at a time.
[19:54] Speaker 1: I saw that Twitter video where he was dropping all
[19:56] Speaker 1: the plates.
[19:56] Speaker 6: Yeah, I have seen that one. And I think, A,
[20:00] Speaker 6: that's something that goes on in the transfer market and
[20:02] Speaker 6: everyone knows about it, but you kind of just have
[20:03] Speaker 6: to keep that hush-hush. You just don't make that your thing,
[20:06] Speaker 6: I would say.
[20:07] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[20:07] Speaker 6: And B, I think you end up kind of making
[20:09] Speaker 6: a lot more enemies than friends. And in this world
[20:12] Speaker 6: of Premier League transfers where everyone's buying from everyone and
[20:15] Speaker 6: Premier League teams buying from Premier League teams, I think
[20:18] Speaker 6: having good relationships, particularly with other Premier League teams, is really,
[20:22] Speaker 6: really important.
[20:22] Speaker 1: Sure.
[20:23] Speaker 6: And from James's piece, it seemed like the way Arsenal
[20:25] Speaker 6: went about the Bruno Guimaraes deal kind of, you know,
[20:28] Speaker 6: pissed off Newcastle and The way they went about Jeremy
[20:30] Speaker 6: Monger deal at the start of the window, that kind
[20:31] Speaker 6: of pissed off Leicester as well.
[20:33] Speaker 1: Who ended up going to Man City. Exactly.
[20:34] Speaker 6: They ended up getting Bruno Guimarães, but probably for more
[20:36] Speaker 6: than they could have done if they'd just gone through
[20:38] Speaker 6: the front door instead of, as James put it, going
[20:41] Speaker 6: through the back door, I guess.
[20:44] Speaker 1: You're great at this analogy. Thank you. You're really nailing it.
[20:47] Speaker 1: Instead of going through business.
[20:49] Speaker 6: I think that the way you conduct business now is
[20:52] Speaker 6: so important. You look at deals like Chelsea and Aston
[20:54] Speaker 6: Villa have done some deals where they've done a lot
[20:57] Speaker 6: of business in between the two clubs recently, which suggests
[20:59] Speaker 6: that the relationships between the two clubs are quite good.
[21:01] Speaker 6: So you need to find ways of fostering those positive relationships.
[21:05] Speaker 6: And I don't think Arsenal have done that. And it's
[21:07] Speaker 6: left them in a position now where instead of, as
[21:09] Speaker 6: John was saying, potentially going and winning games 2-3-0, there's
[21:13] Speaker 6: probably going to be a lot more 1-0 slogs like
[21:14] Speaker 6: we saw against Aston Villa. And I don't know that
[21:17] Speaker 6: anyone's particularly down for that because as much as you
[21:19] Speaker 6: said it wasn't a real title race, it felt pretty
[21:20] Speaker 6: real to me. And that's because every game was kind
[21:24] Speaker 6: of like just on the cliff edge where like if
[21:26] Speaker 6: something goes wrong, then.
[21:28] Speaker 1: And that's almost the point I'm making.
[21:30] Speaker 5: If you're a player like Vinicius Junior who can play
[21:32] Speaker 5: for Real Madrid and you have maybe two or three
[21:34] Speaker 5: of those games a season, the prospect of then going...
[21:38] Speaker 5: And the footballing reality being a lot of these games
[21:41] Speaker 5: are going to be you're working 90 minutes, you can't
[21:44] Speaker 5: stop one mistake and you're potentially costing your team the league.
[21:49] Speaker 1: Surely there's nothing.
[21:50] Speaker 5: I don't know. So there's nothing in that for a
[21:52] Speaker 5: really elite player. The other thing I wanted to say is,
[21:54] Speaker 5: and I know you're working on a piece on Daniel
[21:56] Speaker 5: Levy at the moment. I wonder if there's parallels between
[21:59] Speaker 5: Levy and Berta. There's a quote from Berta in James's
[22:03] Speaker 5: piece where he says, my time in banking gave me
[22:05] Speaker 5: a solid foundation in economics and a deep respect for
[22:08] Speaker 5: the value of money, which I don't know.
[22:10] Speaker 1: It's not my experience of most bankers. Well, yeah, but.
[22:14] Speaker 5: Also I think, you know, with Miguel Delaney's piece coming
[22:16] Speaker 5: out where he's talking about- In The Independent. In The Independent,
[22:19] Speaker 5: where he's talking about how football is maybe approaching its
[22:23] Speaker 5: big short.
[22:25] Speaker 1: Event horizon. As a result of money being spent from creditors. Yeah, exactly.
[22:31] Speaker 5: It just feels like when you say something like that
[22:34] Speaker 5: as a finance guy at a club, you're in the
[22:36] Speaker 5: wrong business, right? Because there is no value to money.
[22:39] Speaker 5: We're almost at that point where as soon as Spurs
[22:43] Speaker 5: decided to spend 100 million on Sandro Tenali, everything just
[22:46] Speaker 5: bumps up by you know, 20, 30 million.
[22:49] Speaker 1: Well, that was the interesting thing about James's piece was
[22:51] Speaker 1: that he uses the reference point of Man City buying
[22:56] Speaker 1: Elliot Anderson as the changing point for how Aston Villa
[23:00] Speaker 1: valued Morgan Rogers. And that, you know, he almost uses
[23:03] Speaker 1: that as a kind of, as a starting point.
[23:06] Speaker 2: But I don't even think that's the right starting point
[23:08] Speaker 2: because I think that like the biggest thing, the biggest
[23:11] Speaker 2: story that I think we've seen, if you take a
[23:12] Speaker 2: step back in the last like three or four years,
[23:14] Speaker 2: has been Premier League to Premier League transfers becoming basically
[23:18] Speaker 2: the only game in town in the market. So much
[23:21] Speaker 2: of the market is now the massive prem-to-prem transfers, which
[23:25] Speaker 2: never really used to happen this way. I was trying
[23:28] Speaker 2: to think, where would you date it from? Obviously, Grealish
[23:31] Speaker 2: went to City in 2021 for 100 million. Then in 2023,
[23:32] Speaker 2: you've got Rice going to Arsenal for just over 100 million.
[23:35] Speaker 2: Caiceda going to Chelsea for about 115 million. Enzo Fernandes.
[23:44] Speaker 2: Enzo Fernandes, obviously this summer.
[23:47] Speaker 1: Who was that window as well, wasn't he? From Benfica, yeah. Yeah,
[23:50] Speaker 1: that was 100 million plus.
[23:51] Speaker 2: So we're talking about Premier League to Premier League. So
[23:53] Speaker 2: basically there's a kind of, and then Isak, obviously, this
[23:56] Speaker 2: time last year for 125. And I think that all
[24:01] Speaker 2: of that is the context for this summer, where now
[24:04] Speaker 2: clubs are very, very happy to pay 100, 100 plus,
[24:06] Speaker 2: well into the hundreds, for players who have already shone
[24:10] Speaker 2: in the Premier League. It's amazing. I was thinking the
[24:12] Speaker 2: other day, like, genuinely, only five years ago, in the
[24:15] Speaker 2: summer of 2021, Harry Kane was 27 years old, had
[24:19] Speaker 2: three years left in his Tottenham contract. Manchester City tried
[24:22] Speaker 2: to sign him and their opening offer was 75 plus
[24:26] Speaker 2: 25 for Harry Kane. For a 27-year-old Harry Kane with
[24:29] Speaker 2: his peak year still to come.
[24:30] Speaker 1: He should now be worth 200 million.
[24:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And I know that City were kind of
[24:34] Speaker 2: low-balling Tottenham a bit at that point, but Pep still
[24:37] Speaker 2: really wanted Kane. Um, and so that just shows you
[24:40] Speaker 2: how much the market has changed. And now what we've seen,
[24:42] Speaker 2: I think, and so I think like, so I don't
[24:44] Speaker 2: think it started with Elliot Anderson. I just think Elliot
[24:46] Speaker 2: Anderson is a continuation of a trend that we've seen
[24:49] Speaker 2: in the last three years. And now the fact is
[24:51] Speaker 2: like the big, the big premier league clubs, like the
[24:53] Speaker 2: traditional big six are incredibly relaxed about paying nine figure
[24:57] Speaker 2: sums to get, to get in guys from the premier league.
[24:59] Speaker 2: It's almost like, I think I've said this on this
[25:01] Speaker 2: the other week, like it's almost feels to me like
[25:03] Speaker 2: they're not that interested in value. It's more, well, he's
[25:07] Speaker 2: proven in the Premier League, so let's get him in.
[25:09] Speaker 2: And I'm not down on Anderson as a player. I
[25:11] Speaker 2: think he's a fantastic player. But I think if you
[25:12] Speaker 2: look at all these deals, clubs are so relaxed about
[25:16] Speaker 2: paying that premium now. And you can point to Rodgers, Tenali,
[25:20] Speaker 2: tons of other examples. But for me, that is the
[25:23] Speaker 2: story of this window.
[25:25] Speaker 1: It's risk over value, isn't it? It's like you de-risk
[25:27] Speaker 1: by getting someone who you know will probably work rather
[25:31] Speaker 1: than worry about... If you bring someone in from somewhere else,
[25:33] Speaker 1: maybe you'll save 20, 30 million. But if they don't work,
[25:36] Speaker 1: who cares?
[25:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, they always want the low risk option. And the
[25:39] Speaker 2: low risk option is the guy who's already in the
[25:41] Speaker 2: Premier League. And that's basically, that's why Brentford and Brighton
[25:46] Speaker 2: have such a great time of it, right? Because they
[25:48] Speaker 2: take the risk. Like if you sign Sangare from Ligue 1,
[25:51] Speaker 2: you take the risk in getting him in. And then
[25:53] Speaker 2: in two years time, I'm sure Sangare will like go
[25:55] Speaker 2: to Liverpool or go to Chelsea for 100 million. And basically,
[25:58] Speaker 2: like the big six team that signs him is paying
[26:02] Speaker 2: a sort of, you know, £ 50, £ 60 million.
[26:05] Speaker 1: Premium based on what Brentford pay.
[26:07] Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah. Like Brentford pocket that money, that profit, and
[26:12] Speaker 2: that profit is basically the big six team. That's what
[26:15] Speaker 2: they pay to mitigate the risk or to take out
[26:18] Speaker 2: the risk. Sorry, rather to have Brentford bear the risk
[26:20] Speaker 2: of the transfer. And that's basically how it works now.
[26:23] Speaker 1: Should we play Rondo? Oh, yeah. the reason that Jack
[26:29] Speaker 1: Pitbrook is here is to play Rondo but first we
[26:32] Speaker 1: must listen to advertisements there we go okay that was
[26:37] Speaker 1: a nice little break wasn't it now I've chosen today's
[26:41] Speaker 1: Rondo category in honour of our ring for analysis episode
[26:45] Speaker 1: which is being released on audio platforms on Saturday John
[26:50] Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about Jose Mourinho's Real Madrid
[26:53] Speaker 1: rebuild and what happened for him in the summer So
[26:56] Speaker 1: I've been thinking about Jose Mourinho, doing a little bit
[26:58] Speaker 1: of reading about him. And I thought, oh, this should
[27:00] Speaker 1: be quite a fun Rondo. What I'm looking for are
[27:03] Speaker 1: Top 20 appearance makers for Jose Mourinho across all of
[27:08] Speaker 1: his clubs that he's managed.
[27:09] Speaker 6: Before we start, can I suggest a Ruben rule where
[27:12] Speaker 6: we all close our laptops?
[27:14] Speaker 1: Yes, please do close your laptops.
[27:16] Speaker 6: There's been some disgraceful goings on. Ruben's cheated twice in
[27:20] Speaker 6: a row. Not by looking at his laptop.
[27:22] Speaker 1: Yeah, no, he did. He was looking at the Premier
[27:24] Speaker 1: League teams, which I think is... No, no, no. He
[27:26] Speaker 1: asked to look at the Premier League teams.
[27:28] Speaker 2: He didn't actually do it.
[27:29] Speaker 1: He kind of started.
[27:31] Speaker 1: You said what are you looking at on the internet
[27:34] Speaker 1: it kind of happened we should fire him from his
[27:36] Speaker 1: job that is absolutely horrific.
[27:38] Speaker 6: I mean that would secure me Rondo Del Rey probably
[27:40] Speaker 6: at the end of.
[27:41] Speaker 1: The year oh my god you've got JPB in the
[27:44] Speaker 1: room that's true I'm also going to lose it now
[27:47] Speaker 1: right now Okay. Okay, right. Here's how the Rondo works.
[27:50] Speaker 1: I ask a question. Today's question is 20 top appearance
[27:53] Speaker 1: makers for Jose Mourinho. We go around the room. We
[27:55] Speaker 1: give answers. If we give incorrect answers, we're rejected from
[27:57] Speaker 1: the Rondo. If we give an answer that has been
[27:59] Speaker 1: given before, active listening, we're rejected from the Rondo. The
[28:03] Speaker 1: final person standing is named Rondo Del Rey. And I
[28:08] Speaker 1: shall begin, JPB, with you. Now, of course, this one,
[28:11] Speaker 1: I'm going to introduce slightly one new rule for this game. Everyone...
[28:16] Speaker 1: gets not a debutante's grace, everyone gets a difficulty grace,
[28:20] Speaker 1: because I think there's an element of luck in here.
[28:22] Speaker 1: Justin Mourinho's been a manager for a very long time. Yeah,
[28:24] Speaker 1: this is tough. This is harder than a normal Ronda.
[28:26] Speaker 1: So it's okay to get one wrong answer. JPB, off
[28:31] Speaker 1: to you. John Terry. John Terry, number two. 267 appearances.
[28:37] Speaker 1: Frank Lampard. Frank Lampard, number three. 215, bit of a
[28:40] Speaker 1: drop-off there. Those were the two good ones. Well, no,
[28:45] Speaker 1: I mean, those were two and three. Oh, really? There's
[28:47] Speaker 1: one good one. Ricardo Carvalho. That's number one. Of course,
[28:50] Speaker 1: 293 because he played for Porto and Chelsea. And Real Madrid.
[28:54] Speaker 1: And Real Madrid? Yeah. Really? Wow. I didn't have that
[28:56] Speaker 1: written down. Okay, Jack, back to you.
[28:59] Speaker 2: Petr Cech.
[29:00] Speaker 1: Petr Cech is there. 196 appearances. John? Nemanja Matic. Nemanja Matic. Yeah,
[29:05] Speaker 1: he's also there. So we've now got five and six
[29:08] Speaker 1: out as well. Great shout. Kaya? Didier Drogba. Didier Drogba
[29:12] Speaker 1: is there, 187 appearances. We're going down the list now, though.
[29:15] Speaker 2: JPB? Paolo Ferreira.
[29:17] Speaker 1: Paolo Ferreira. He was the missing number four, 212.
[29:21] Speaker 2: John?
[29:25] Speaker 1: There's some fun names on here. As in, like... As
[29:28] Speaker 1: in that there's one or two, like, unexpected names. But
[29:33] Speaker 1: I do require an answer from you. And also, because
[29:36] Speaker 1: you get your difficulty grace, you really don't get to
[29:39] Speaker 1: spend all this time... thinking. No, but I'm going to
[29:41] Speaker 1: still carry on talking as though we're having that conversation. No,
[29:44] Speaker 1: we're not having any conversation.
[29:45] Speaker 5: The thing is, when you talk like this, it's actually,
[29:47] Speaker 5: I'm not thinking about anything other than just talking to you.
[29:50] Speaker 1: What are you saying? It doesn't work, does it? It
[29:52] Speaker 1: doesn't work at all. Say a name. One, two, three, go.
[29:56] Speaker 1: Claude McAlealy. There you go. Works every time. 139 appearances.
[30:01] Speaker 1: He's on the list. Kaya? Sergio Ramos. Sergio Ramos is there.
[30:05] Speaker 1: 137 appearances for Real Madrid. JPB, back to you.
[30:09] Speaker 2: Ike Casillas.
[30:10] Speaker 1: Ike Casillas is there. He's just going through the goalkeepers.
[30:13] Speaker 1: He's got it down. He knows how to play the game.
[30:16] Speaker 1: It's a good strat. And also what we're learning here
[30:18] Speaker 1: is that there are Real Madrid players just who've only
[30:21] Speaker 1: played for one Mourinho who are on the list. So
[30:24] Speaker 1: it's interesting, isn't it? Over to you, John. Now you're
[30:28] Speaker 1: really taking a little bit of time. And the problem,
[30:29] Speaker 1: of course, with the Rondo is that the longer you take,
[30:31] Speaker 1: the more time you give your opponents to think as well.
[30:35] Speaker 1: Joe Cole. Well, there's your difficulty grace gone. Can I
[30:39] Speaker 1: change it to... No, no, no, you can't change it.
[30:41] Speaker 1: That was your difficulty grace. Oh, so I don't have
[30:43] Speaker 1: to get a correct one? No, no, you have to
[30:44] Speaker 1: get a correct one now. Damien Duff. Damien Duff, also
[30:47] Speaker 1: not there. You're out of here. There he goes. The
[30:49] Speaker 1: thing is, he doesn't really care, and that's why you
[30:51] Speaker 1: win the Rondo every week, Kyle. Kyle? Cristiano Ronaldo? Cristiano Ronaldo. Yes,
[30:57] Speaker 1: he is. 164 appearances just for Real Madrid. He said that.
[31:01] Speaker 2: Karim Benzema.
[31:02] Speaker 1: Karim Benzema is not there. That's your difficulty, Grace, gone. Okay.
[31:10] Speaker 1: I need another correct answer from you now, though. I
[31:14] Speaker 1: think that's because Karim Benzema only arrived what the season before,
[31:18] Speaker 1: just as Mourinho took over. And he didn't fully establish
[31:20] Speaker 1: himself right off the bat, did he? Because there was
[31:22] Speaker 1: also Who was that guy who then went to, who
[31:24] Speaker 1: was at Napoli as well? Don't say it in case
[31:27] Speaker 1: I do.
[31:28] Speaker 2: Sammy Kadira.
[31:31] Speaker 1: Also not there. Sammy Kadira not there either. Okay. JPB's
[31:36] Speaker 1: out of the game.
[31:36] Speaker 7: Wow.
[31:37] Speaker 1: Kaya. Kaya. With the first post-Rubin Rule rondo.
[31:42] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[31:43] Speaker 1: Can you take it home? You haven't even used your
[31:46] Speaker 1: difficulty grace yet. I've got two shots. You've got two shots.
[31:49] Speaker 1: We've not mentioned any Inter Milan players, have we?
[31:52] Speaker 3: No.
[31:54] Speaker 6: Okay, given I've got one to go, I'm going to
[31:57] Speaker 6: use Jack's goalkeeper tactic and say Julio Cesar.
[32:01] Speaker 1: Julio Cesar? Yeah, him.
[32:02] Speaker 2: No. Cool.
[32:03] Speaker 1: Not there.
[32:04] Speaker 2: Cool.
[32:04] Speaker 1: Also, his name's Julio. It's Julio, isn't it? Because he's
[32:07] Speaker 1: Brazilian Portuguese. Oh, shit.
[32:09] Speaker 2: Get wrecked.
[32:10] Speaker 1: Shit, he's Brazilian. Man, you are having a bad time
[32:14] Speaker 1: of trying to get Kaya today. That was bad. That's
[32:16] Speaker 1: like the second time. Do you know what? It's because
[32:19] Speaker 1: you said Julian Alvarez before and I had it in
[32:21] Speaker 1: my head to get you. Yeah, you said Julian Alvarez
[32:23] Speaker 1: before and I was like, I'll get it for you. No, no, no.
[32:26] Speaker 1: Because he's... Argentinian. Yeah, where they... Oh, no.
[32:30] Speaker 5: You're having a nightmare today.
[32:35] Speaker 1: Are you sure? Because in Argentinian, they've got weird accents,
[32:38] Speaker 1: haven't they? They do. Yeah, but they do like... Two
[32:41] Speaker 1: failed gets. They do like the weird... Gajardo rather than Gallardo. Yeah.
[32:45] Speaker 1: All right. That's two failed. I'll be completely humble for
[32:48] Speaker 1: the rest of the episode, guys. Kaya, I've given you
[32:50] Speaker 1: plenty of thinking time.
[32:52] Speaker 6: The guess in my head, which I'm not certain of,
[32:54] Speaker 6: but I think he was quite closely associated with.
[32:57] Speaker 1: It when he played at Real Madrid.
[32:58] Speaker 5: Are you playing for a throw out there and see
[33:00] Speaker 5: how Joe reacts approach to this?
[33:03] Speaker 1: There are nine correct answers remaining. There are nine left.
[33:05] Speaker 1: We actually did quite well. And you know all of them.
[33:07] Speaker 1: I know. Alvaro Arbeloa. No. Would you like to guess
[33:15] Speaker 1: one more? Michael Essien. Michael Essien is there. If you'd
[33:18] Speaker 1: said Michael Essien, you would have won. Of course, no
[33:20] Speaker 1: one wins the Rondo today except me. I am Rondo
[33:22] Speaker 1: del Regent. It's been a long time since the title
[33:24] Speaker 1: has returned to me. Well played, everyone. The host. Here's
[33:27] Speaker 1: a few other names you could have had. Moving up
[33:30] Speaker 1: from the lowest appearances up to the top. Branislav Ivanovic
[33:33] Speaker 1: qualified just for Chelsea, 115. Essien was at Real Madrid
[33:36] Speaker 1: as well, wasn't he? Gianluca Mancini... From Roma, 122 appearances
[33:41] Speaker 1: for Roma.
[33:43] Speaker 7: I don't think we would ever have got that. Pepe,
[33:45] Speaker 7: you could have had for Real Madrid, obviously 125 appearances.
[33:49] Speaker 7: Brian Cristante for Roma, you could have had. Rui Patricio
[33:53] Speaker 7: for Roma, you could have had. He was at Roma
[33:55] Speaker 7: for a while.
[33:57] Speaker 1: Here's a few interesting ones. Mesut Ozil for Real Madrid,
[34:00] Speaker 1: 157 appearances, which is interesting because you don't think of
[34:03] Speaker 1: Mesut Ozil as a very Mourinho player, but he was.
[34:06] Speaker 1: Xabi Alonso. You could have had 150, current Chelsea manager,
[34:10] Speaker 1: 151 appearances for Real Madrid. And then my most favouritest one,
[34:14] Speaker 1: because he played for Roma and Manchester United.
[34:16] Speaker 2: Smalling.
[34:16] Speaker 1: Chris Smalling, 188 appearances.
[34:18] Speaker 2: So, Kadira and whoever else I said from the Real
[34:22] Speaker 2: Madrid team that didn't get on.
[34:24] Speaker 1: Who did I say?
[34:24] Speaker 2: I said Kadira, who wasn't on, and Benzema. I guess
[34:29] Speaker 2: Benzema did rotate a lot with Higuain. I'm just going
[34:32] Speaker 2: to look at the... They basically took it in turns.
[34:34] Speaker 1: Kadira was injured all the time as well.
[34:35] Speaker 2: Kadira was injured. But I should have... I had Pepe...
[34:38] Speaker 2: I mean, it's pointless saying this now. I had Pepe
[34:40] Speaker 2: in my head. Should have gone for Pepe. I had
[34:42] Speaker 2: Ozil in my head. And I was like, didn't he
[34:44] Speaker 2: fall out with Ozil or something? I'm going to play
[34:46] Speaker 2: it safe with Kadira. And in fact, if I'd stuck
[34:49] Speaker 2: with Pepe... Anyway, there's something about it.
[34:52] Speaker 1: Arbelo was number 23. He was just outside. He was
[34:54] Speaker 1: 21 and 22. So 21 and 22... were David De
[34:59] Speaker 1: Gea was in there. Ednazard was actually 21. David De Gea, 22.
[35:04] Speaker 1: Gary Cahill, Arbeloa. Javier Zanetti was the first that was in.
[35:08] Speaker 1: So I'm just looking down to see Sammy Kadira was
[35:11] Speaker 1: number 26. So not too far. Karen Benzema, number 28.
[35:15] Speaker 2: Still counts. Still counts as wrong.
[35:16] Speaker 1: Still counts as wrong, unfortunately.
[35:18] Speaker 3: Right.
[35:18] Speaker 1: Okay, well, there we go. That was a good one,
[35:20] Speaker 1: wasn't it? Technically, I think I won that because I
[35:22] Speaker 1: stayed level with these two. Well, it's nice that you
[35:24] Speaker 1: think that. That's a win in my book. It's nice
[35:25] Speaker 1: that you think that, isn't it? Now, there we go.
[35:27] Speaker 1: That was the Rondo. Well done to me. I'm the
[35:28] Speaker 1: winner of the Rondo. Next, we will discuss Everton. And
[35:31] Speaker 1: Steve Hankey will make a seamless edit that hides the
[35:35] Speaker 1: fact that I went to get a drink of water
[35:36] Speaker 1: at this point. yes now Everton Everton let's talk about
[35:45] Speaker 1: Everton because if Arsenal had a somewhat tepid transfer window
[35:50] Speaker 1: which is not fair because they bought some really good
[35:52] Speaker 1: players if they had a warmish transfer window Everton ended
[35:57] Speaker 1: Everton's transfer window ended in ignominy on Tuesday night didn't
[36:01] Speaker 1: it after you didn't write that word did you I
[36:03] Speaker 1: wrote that word ignominy.
[36:05] Speaker 5: I would have thought it would have just been it's
[36:06] Speaker 5: one of those words where I would just be like
[36:07] Speaker 5: don't even try and say it ignominy yeah it's a
[36:10] Speaker 5: hard one try and say it ignominy It does sound
[36:13] Speaker 5: different when you say it.
[36:14] Speaker 1: It's one of those words where it's okay to lose
[36:17] Speaker 1: a letter or two in the pronunciation. A bit like
[36:20] Speaker 1: every Portuguese word.
[36:24] Speaker 4: You wouldn't know in terms of Portuguese words.
[36:27] Speaker 1: I do know. Would you like to know my favourite
[36:29] Speaker 1: Portuguese word? John knows. Leishma. We have a friend who's
[36:36] Speaker 1: terrified of slugs but he's Portuguese and we learned how
[36:39] Speaker 1: to say leishma so that we could look at him
[36:41] Speaker 1: and say Leishma. Does that mean slug in Portuguese? Yes,
[36:44] Speaker 1: it does. It upsets him tremendously. And that friend was
[36:46] Speaker 1: Jose Mourinho. Exactly. Leishma Mourinho. Now, that's probably very rude,
[36:51] Speaker 1: isn't it? Now, US men's national team and Monaco striker
[36:53] Speaker 1: Foller and Balogun, ignominy, decided at the 11th hour that
[36:58] Speaker 1: he didn't actually want to join Everton. Now, this was
[37:01] Speaker 1: a crazy story. Maybe it was the most interesting one.
[37:05] Speaker 1: maybe we could probably run through it very briefly. He
[37:07] Speaker 1: was at Everton's training ground having completed a medical. The
[37:10] Speaker 1: clubs had then agreed and re-agreed fees because there was
[37:13] Speaker 1: some kind of medical dispute, which I think turned out
[37:16] Speaker 1: to be quite a small thing by the sounds of it.
[37:19] Speaker 1: A deal sheet had been submitted to the Premier League,
[37:21] Speaker 1: which is to ask for special dispensation to have an
[37:23] Speaker 1: extra hour or two just to complete the paperwork. So
[37:25] Speaker 1: that's normally when it's purely administrative at that stage. And
[37:29] Speaker 1: then after all of that, a follower in Balogun actually
[37:32] Speaker 1: decided he didn't want to join Everton. And he left
[37:35] Speaker 1: the training ground, which I think is one of the
[37:38] Speaker 1: ballerist moves I've ever heard. I mean, that's so, that is, well,
[37:41] Speaker 1: it's obviously not funny for him or the club or
[37:43] Speaker 1: any of the other people involved, but it's funny for
[37:45] Speaker 1: me to hear. So thanks Foller and Balogun for doing that.
[37:49] Speaker 1: The club, obviously, Everton had already sold striker Beto to
[37:52] Speaker 1: Fiorentina days earlier, which leaves them with one recognised striker
[37:56] Speaker 1: in the senior squad. That's Tieno Barry, otherwise known as
[38:00] Speaker 1: John's only fantasy football hope in his team. No, this
[38:03] Speaker 1: is good for me, right? He's got to play. He
[38:05] Speaker 1: has to play. Well, no, it's not good for you
[38:07] Speaker 1: because he will now definitely be injured until January. Yeah,
[38:10] Speaker 1: that's true. Jack Grealish returned on loan. Ainsley Maitland-Niles arrived too,
[38:14] Speaker 1: as well as Hayden Hackney earlier in the window. Brennan Johnson,
[38:18] Speaker 1: Christian Norgard as well. But departures also, very late in
[38:22] Speaker 1: the window, included Illiman Njai to Manchester City. And somewhat worryingly,
[38:27] Speaker 1: it does leave Everton with a squad of just 21
[38:29] Speaker 1: senior players. In other words, extremely short and would be worrying,
[38:34] Speaker 1: as we said, if they did get injuries. How bad
[38:39] Speaker 1: was that window, JPP? What do you think? If you
[38:41] Speaker 1: gave Arsenal 7 out of 10, what do you think?
[38:44] Speaker 1: I mean, it's easy to get carried away because deadline
[38:48] Speaker 1: day was very bad for Everton. Maybe the window overall
[38:51] Speaker 1: not as bad, but what do you think?
[38:53] Speaker 2: Pretty bad, I think.
[38:54] Speaker 1: Pretty bad.
[38:55] Speaker 2: Based on Everton fans that seem pretty upset at the moment.
[38:58] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[39:00] Speaker 2: I think it was clear last season they just needed more,
[39:03] Speaker 2: more quality. They haven't really got that. I mean, obviously,
[39:08] Speaker 2: Grealish has come back in, which is good. They've lost
[39:10] Speaker 2: in DI. But they haven't, you know, I think Maitland
[39:14] Speaker 2: is a good player. I think Hackney is a good player.
[39:16] Speaker 2: But they clearly needed more. Like, if you look at
[39:19] Speaker 2: their rivalry, They're the other teams around where you would
[39:23] Speaker 2: probably expect them to finish this season. They're all bringing
[39:27] Speaker 2: in more players and clearly like, you know, there seems
[39:31] Speaker 2: to be a degree of friction between David Moyes and
[39:35] Speaker 2: the people running the club. Moyes has been a bit frustrated.
[39:39] Speaker 2: I'm not sure Moyes has really been backed with the
[39:41] Speaker 2: players that he needs to keep Everton moving forward.
[39:43] Speaker 1: It doesn't seem that way.
[39:44] Speaker 2: Fans seem pretty annoyed about this situation. perceived lack of
[39:48] Speaker 2: ambition and it's it's a really bad way to start
[39:51] Speaker 2: the season basically and then for it all to for
[39:53] Speaker 2: the climax to be as dramatic as you know high
[39:57] Speaker 2: profile US international um coming to the club and then
[40:01] Speaker 2: going and then turning us back and going home at
[40:04] Speaker 2: the very end of the window it's such an awful
[40:06] Speaker 2: thing to happen at the end of what's been a
[40:08] Speaker 2: pretty bruising transfer window.
[40:10] Speaker 1: I think the most interesting thing about that the saga
[40:13] Speaker 1: the follower in Balogun saga is that I've listened to
[40:16] Speaker 1: a lot of Everton fans over the last 24 hours
[40:18] Speaker 1: to get their perspectives and none of them blame him.
[40:21] Speaker 1: You know, like ordinarily in a situation like this, fans
[40:24] Speaker 1: always kind of stand with their club and they say, well,
[40:27] Speaker 1: the player doesn't want to come. Like, oh, he's fucked
[40:28] Speaker 1: us around on deadline day, whatever. That's a terrible thing
[40:31] Speaker 1: to do. Everyone I've heard. has been like, well, he's
[40:34] Speaker 1: obviously seen something he doesn't want to say. And you think,
[40:36] Speaker 1: how low is the fan base's morale? But that's the perspective.
[40:40] Speaker 1: It's like half of them are just joking. They're like, well, yeah,
[40:43] Speaker 1: he spent five hours at the Finch training ground and
[40:45] Speaker 1: then decided, I don't want to live here. I think
[40:49] Speaker 1: it's those sorts of details that make it feel like
[40:53] Speaker 1: a fiasco. They are the funniest fan base, I think,
[40:56] Speaker 1: the Everton fans. In what sense?
[40:58] Speaker 5: Well, I think maybe because they've just been beaten down
[41:00] Speaker 5: so much over the last.
[41:02] Speaker 1: decade.
[41:03] Speaker 5: So obviously the famous tweet that was doing the rounds
[41:05] Speaker 5: was we've been food chained by the concept of free will.
[41:08] Speaker 5: Like a player realising that he doesn't have to play
[41:11] Speaker 5: for us and we can move on. There was another
[41:14] Speaker 5: tweet that was doing the rounds. There was a guy
[41:15] Speaker 5: who got banned from going to the Hill Dickinson for
[41:19] Speaker 5: throwing someone across some chairs and there was a photo
[41:22] Speaker 5: of him and all Everton fans were quote tweeting it
[41:24] Speaker 5: being like he's been banned for three years look how
[41:26] Speaker 5: happy he is this guy's just cheesing away so well there.
[41:30] Speaker 1: Was there was an awful lot of anger as well
[41:32] Speaker 1: on deadline day on social media because the the club
[41:35] Speaker 1: account at around 10 p.m released a video promoting the
[41:38] Speaker 1: fact that they're they're reselling these special toffee donuts that
[41:42] Speaker 1: they sold last year And there was a lot of
[41:44] Speaker 1: fan anger about this as well. Apparently, these donuts are
[41:47] Speaker 1: a little overpriced.
[41:49] Speaker 5: Well, obviously, the culinary department are strongly linked with the
[41:52] Speaker 5: recruitment department at Everton.
[41:54] Speaker 1: So it's good to hold them to account. Special new
[41:56] Speaker 1: signing with a soft inside. How about that? Anyway, I mean,
[42:00] Speaker 1: is it too sort of catastrophizing to suggest that there
[42:05] Speaker 1: could be a relegation worry here for Everton? Worry?
[42:08] Speaker 6: I don't think it's too catastrophizing. I think if you
[42:11] Speaker 6: look at Again, what their rivals have got in terms
[42:14] Speaker 6: of depth, they're all pretty set. Hull have started the
[42:17] Speaker 6: season better than anyone thought they would. Ipswich have looked
[42:21] Speaker 6: okay in the first couple of games as well. So
[42:23] Speaker 6: it's not looking like the newly promoted teams are going
[42:26] Speaker 6: to be cut adrift and how teams have stayed up
[42:29] Speaker 6: in the past where there's just been three worse teams
[42:31] Speaker 6: than them. It's not looking like that's necessarily going to
[42:33] Speaker 6: happen this time around. So They need Tiano Barry to
[42:36] Speaker 6: score a lot of goals or to put in a
[42:38] Speaker 6: lot of good performances between now and January.
[42:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, they and John. Me too.
[42:42] Speaker 5: I would like to point out at this moment that
[42:45] Speaker 5: the reason I have Tiano Barry is because I can't
[42:46] Speaker 5: pick anyone from the top half of the table.
[42:48] Speaker 1: Sure, sure. I would also like to add to that, though,
[42:51] Speaker 1: that we picked in a draft system. You picked relatively
[42:53] Speaker 1: early and you picked him over like Johan Visser, who
[42:56] Speaker 1: I chose. You picked him over Igor Thiago, who I
[42:59] Speaker 1: also chose.
[42:59] Speaker 5: And now he's the only starting striker for Everton, who
[43:02] Speaker 5: may be in a relegation battle for that.
[43:05] Speaker 2: It's a completely different.
[43:06] Speaker 1: By the way, Steve says the toffee donut was £ 6. 50.
[43:08] Speaker 1: That's quite expensive. Which is far too expensive, isn't it?
[43:12] Speaker 6: I think it is kind of unacceptable to leave yourself
[43:15] Speaker 6: with such a thin squad.
[43:16] Speaker 2: Particularly given how physically demanding the Premier League is now.
[43:20] Speaker 2: It takes so much out of teams. There's no substitute
[43:23] Speaker 2: for depth. So it feels like they're really... Kind of
[43:26] Speaker 2: on thin ice.
[43:27] Speaker 1: Aren't they?
[43:27] Speaker 6: And so self-inflicted as well. I don't think anyone made
[43:30] Speaker 6: them sell the players they ended up selling. You talk
[43:33] Speaker 6: about free will. No one was forcing Everton to do
[43:36] Speaker 6: the deals they did in terms of reducing their level
[43:39] Speaker 6: of options.
[43:40] Speaker 1: Well, in fact, fans did the opposite, right? I forget
[43:42] Speaker 1: the name of the player. It was Harrison... Armstrong. Harrison Armstrong,
[43:45] Speaker 1: an Everton player who was going to be proposed to
[43:47] Speaker 1: be sold to... Forrest. Forrest. And I was hoping everyone
[43:51] Speaker 1: would say Forreston as well. But apparently the fan reaction
[43:55] Speaker 1: to it was so negative that that deal ended up
[43:57] Speaker 1: not happening.
[43:58] Speaker 5: I just saw Everton fans praising David Ornstein because he
[44:04] Speaker 5: mentioned it on TNT Sports, I think. And it was
[44:07] Speaker 5: before the game. And then the fans got wind of
[44:10] Speaker 5: it before it happened, before a game, so they could
[44:13] Speaker 5: chant during the game.
[44:14] Speaker 1: David is a hero. I always knew it. Anyway, I
[44:17] Speaker 1: guess the broader question here with Everton is just why
[44:20] Speaker 1: is this happening? John, you shared an interesting article with
[44:23] Speaker 1: us in the WhatsApp. I'm going to read a little
[44:25] Speaker 1: extract from it now. This is from an article by
[44:27] Speaker 1: Paul Quinn, who writes on football finance governance and other
[44:31] Speaker 1: fun stuff like that. Here's the exit, and then you
[44:34] Speaker 1: can tell us why you found this interesting. The strategic
[44:37] Speaker 1: direction set by the owners, albeit not articulated, is stabilisation
[44:42] Speaker 1: and asset appreciation, not acquisitions. The recapitalisation, the JP Morgan refinancing,
[44:52] Speaker 1: the stadium revenue step change, the wage bill reduction, the
[44:55] Speaker 1: collapse in amortisation from £ 64. 6m to £ 50. 9m, the low net
[45:01] Speaker 1: spend and the age profile reset all point the same way.
[45:05] Speaker 1: The Friedkin Group, the owners of Everton, is aiming for
[45:08] Speaker 1: a club that is cheap to run, compliant by construction
[45:12] Speaker 1: and worth materially more than it costs. Competitive ambition, if any,
[45:16] Speaker 1: is being funded out of efficiency, not out of equity.
[45:19] Speaker 1: So maybe that's the context of why this is happening. Yeah,
[45:23] Speaker 1: I would recommend people go and read the piece by
[45:25] Speaker 1: Paul Quint. It's very good.
[45:26] Speaker 5: It's on his website, theesc.org. So yeah, go there ahead
[45:30] Speaker 5: of anything I'm about to say here. But the important
[45:34] Speaker 5: context here is that we've changed the financial regulation around
[45:38] Speaker 5: the Premier League teams this season so we've gone from
[45:42] Speaker 5: PSR which is about profit loss yeah and they've shifted
[45:46] Speaker 5: it to a ratio now squad cost ratio right so
[45:50] Speaker 5: when you have a ratio essentially what that means is
[45:51] Speaker 5: you have a numerator at the top and a denominator
[45:54] Speaker 5: at the bottom you have to get it below I
[45:55] Speaker 5: can't remember what it is is it well it's 85%
[45:57] Speaker 5: for clubs not in UA for competition 70% for teams
[46:03] Speaker 5: in UA for competition yeah and what that means essentially
[46:06] Speaker 5: is that you need that that fraction, essentially, that ratio
[46:09] Speaker 5: to equal below that. So the best way of doing
[46:12] Speaker 5: that is to reduce the top number, the numerator, and
[46:15] Speaker 5: increase the denominator. So the denominator is essentially revenue. So
[46:19] Speaker 5: you've got to bring as much money into your club
[46:21] Speaker 5: as possible. And then the top is the squad cost.
[46:25] Speaker 5: And that takes into account lots of things. But I
[46:27] Speaker 5: think most importantly, it takes into account wages. So a
[46:30] Speaker 5: lot of activity, I think, of what's happening in the
[46:33] Speaker 5: Premier League this season, in terms of the transfer activity,
[46:36] Speaker 5: you can if you view it through the concept of
[46:38] Speaker 5: trying to lower your wage budget in order to get
[46:41] Speaker 5: your squad cost ratio down, it makes a lot more sense,
[46:45] Speaker 5: I think. So for example, moving on, Illiman and Jai
[46:49] Speaker 5: was a lot about getting his wage off the books
[46:52] Speaker 5: and bringing the money in.
[46:54] Speaker 1: From his fee.
[46:55] Speaker 5: Both of those things contribute towards that. So I think
[46:58] Speaker 5: there's a lot of clubs who've done that. So a
[47:02] Speaker 5: lot of fan base is confused about why their clubs
[47:04] Speaker 5: are selling certain players. I think a lot of it
[47:06] Speaker 5: has to do with actually getting wages off the books
[47:09] Speaker 5: because that hasn't really been as much of a factor before.
[47:12] Speaker 5: And so, yeah, I guess what the summary that you
[47:15] Speaker 5: just read, essentially what a club like Everton are going
[47:18] Speaker 5: to try and do, because they don't have the ability
[47:20] Speaker 5: to raise the denominator, the revenue a huge amount, they've
[47:24] Speaker 5: obviously tried to do that with the stadium stuff and
[47:27] Speaker 5: boost that up. The next best thing is to operate
[47:30] Speaker 5: with the lower numerator.
[47:32] Speaker 1: To just have 21 players.
[47:33] Speaker 5: Well, yeah, that, but also I think in terms of
[47:36] Speaker 5: this is the point that he's making is they're not
[47:38] Speaker 5: going to buy high and have high wages. They're going
[47:40] Speaker 5: to buy low, have low wages and generate revenue in
[47:43] Speaker 5: that sense by player sales.
[47:45] Speaker 2: Um, so yeah, I think, I think I haven't read
[47:47] Speaker 2: this piece in detail, but I think there is another
[47:49] Speaker 2: implication there, which is that the things that Everton appear
[47:55] Speaker 2: to have been doing are generally speaking, the things that
[47:59] Speaker 2: you would do if you wanted to sell the club, um,
[48:04] Speaker 2: again speaking generally rather than specifically in the case of
[48:06] Speaker 2: Everton but if you own a football club and you
[48:10] Speaker 2: want to sell it the best thing you can do
[48:13] Speaker 2: is have a tight wage bill because your books are
[48:16] Speaker 2: going to be getting poured through by potential investors.
[48:19] Speaker 1: Paint the walls and the investors need.
[48:21] Speaker 2: To know that the club is not hemorrhaging far beyond
[48:24] Speaker 2: its means on player salaries and so having like running
[48:29] Speaker 2: a really like I think it is often the case
[48:31] Speaker 2: that clubs who are, you know, kind of curious about
[48:35] Speaker 2: the market and curious, like, oh, how much could we
[48:37] Speaker 2: sell the club for, will often like get their books
[48:40] Speaker 2: in really tight order before any potential sale, simply because
[48:45] Speaker 2: they know that if they're, If they've blown hundreds of
[48:47] Speaker 2: millions of pounds on salaries, they've committed huge contracts to
[48:49] Speaker 2: new players, then people thinking of buying the club might
[48:52] Speaker 2: be like, oh, I don't quite have a lot of
[48:54] Speaker 2: salary on the books there.
[48:55] Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's really for me. Five years of
[48:56] Speaker 1: commitment or whatever.
[48:57] Speaker 2: But actually, like, so I think it's, yeah, so I
[49:00] Speaker 2: think that might be a way of, that might be
[49:05] Speaker 2: a way of understanding.
[49:06] Speaker 1: What Everton are doing at the moment.
[49:07] Speaker 2: Okay.
[49:07] Speaker 1: Hypothetically, were that to be the case, Do you think
[49:10] Speaker 1: it's a bit of a risk given that another thing
[49:13] Speaker 1: that would impact your sale value would be being relegated? Oh, yeah.
[49:18] Speaker 2: I think that is an issue. that a lot of
[49:20] Speaker 2: clubs run into, right? Is that investors are terrified of relegation.
[49:26] Speaker 2: Investors hate it. They hate the prospect of relegation because
[49:30] Speaker 2: obviously relegation not only tanks your revenue and your valuation,
[49:34] Speaker 2: but even the fear of relegation tanks your value, I think.
[49:39] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[49:40] Speaker 2: It's a really, really difficult balance to strike for any
[49:45] Speaker 2: team that was in such a position.
[49:47] Speaker 5: I think as well, it'll be interesting to see what
[49:49] Speaker 5: they do in January because they've given themselves headroom to
[49:51] Speaker 5: spend if they need to.
[49:53] Speaker 1: Well, they will need to. I think they will need
[49:55] Speaker 1: to buy a striker in January.
[49:57] Speaker 5: But even from, again, from Paul Quinn's piece, he just
[49:59] Speaker 5: says the sale of N'Jai at the reported level transforms
[50:03] Speaker 5: the position on the same assumptions of disposal at circa
[50:06] Speaker 5: £ 60 million against a low residual book value moves the
[50:10] Speaker 5: indicative ratio from the high 80s. So that's your scored
[50:13] Speaker 5: across ratio going from the high 80s to the high 60s,
[50:16] Speaker 5: which is well below where they need to be.
[50:18] Speaker 1: Even to play in Europe. Yeah, exactly.
[50:20] Speaker 5: So again, they're in a position where if they wanted to,
[50:23] Speaker 5: if they are in danger of relegation, it may be
[50:25] Speaker 5: that they splurge a little bit in January.
[50:27] Speaker 1: Okay.
[50:28] Speaker 2: Okay.
[50:28] Speaker 1: Well, let's wait and see for January. In the meantime,
[50:31] Speaker 1: Everton fans, understandably, live it. Now, let's talk about Spurs.
[50:37] Speaker 1: The window closing also means that Spurs finally have to
[50:40] Speaker 1: stop buying players, Jack, which is going to be a surprise.
[50:42] Speaker 1: I've got very used to them buying players every week
[50:45] Speaker 1: that I'm alive. Spurs, they made 10 first team signings
[50:48] Speaker 1: now without looking at your laptop. I know you've been
[50:50] Speaker 1: writing about these all summer, so it should be a
[50:53] Speaker 1: doddle for you. can you name all of those 10 players?
[50:57] Speaker 1: Do you want fees as well? Yes, I do. I
[50:59] Speaker 1: do want fees. Do you want them in the chronological
[51:01] Speaker 1: order in which they were signed?
[51:03] Speaker 2: Do you want them in positions?
[51:04] Speaker 1: No, I want you to go from loans first, then
[51:09] Speaker 1: free transfers, then up in terms of value.
[51:11] Speaker 2: Wow, okay.
[51:13] Speaker 1: To the most expensive last. Can you do.
[51:16] Speaker 2: That? The most expensive at the top?
[51:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, at the end of your list. Okay. So, loans first. So.
[51:23] Speaker 2: Loan with option 75 million pound buy option. Mikaylo Madrid
[51:28] Speaker 2: from Chelsea.
[51:28] Speaker 1: Congratulations. That's good.
[51:30] Speaker 2: Loan with 50 million pound obligation. Omar Mahmoud from Manchester City.
[51:34] Speaker 1: And I like that you put obligation above option because
[51:36] Speaker 1: that does imply more risk financially. This guy's so good. Okay,
[51:40] Speaker 1: now we go free transfers.
[51:42] Speaker 2: Senesi from Bournemouth. Robertson from Liverpool. Dubravka from Burnley.
[51:48] Speaker 1: That's the one. That was the potential one.
[51:50] Speaker 2: Okay, now we're going into permanence.
[51:52] Speaker 1: We're going into permanence, but like, extending value. Cheapest first.
[51:54] Speaker 2: So the cheapest permanent was Tosin and Rabiot from Chelsea
[51:59] Speaker 2: for up to 7 million.
[52:00] Speaker 1: I'm in euros here, but that's fine. 11.65 million euros, yeah.
[52:03] Speaker 2: And then of the remaining permanents, the next cheapest is
[52:08] Speaker 2: actually a big jump up to Jean-Paul Van Hecker, 52
[52:11] Speaker 2: million from Brighton.
[52:12] Speaker 1: Yes, correct.
[52:13] Speaker 2: And then the next one after that would be Savio
[52:17] Speaker 2: from Manchester City.
[52:18] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[52:18] Speaker 2: Sort of 75 million.
[52:19] Speaker 1: Another quite big jump.
[52:20] Speaker 2: Initial 75 initial plus ads. And then Matthias Fernandes, 85
[52:24] Speaker 2: million fixed.
[52:26] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[52:27] Speaker 2: From West Ham United.
[52:28] Speaker 1: And then the last one. And then Sandra Denali, 92.5
[52:30] Speaker 1: fixed plus ads from Newcastle.
[52:34] Speaker 2: You shouldn't be surprised. This is my whole life.
[52:36] Speaker 1: Subscribe to The Athletic, everyone.
[52:38] Speaker 2: This is my whole life. This is my whole brain.
[52:40] Speaker 2: There's nothing else in there.
[52:41] Speaker 1: Does he get Rondo Del Rey for that?
[52:44] Speaker 2: No, I don't deserve Rondo Del Rey.
[52:46] Speaker 1: I'll screw that. He's right, though.
[52:49] Speaker 2: There used to be so much other stuff in my
[52:50] Speaker 2: brain apart.
[52:51] Speaker 1: From Tom and transfers. Now, when Jack leaves the room,
[52:54] Speaker 1: we finish the podcast, he just goes to stand in
[52:56] Speaker 1: the corner and goes... Like that.
[52:58] Speaker 2: Pretty much.
[52:59] Speaker 1: That's it. He'll be on View from the Lane, by
[53:01] Speaker 1: the way. When do you publish View from the Lane?
[53:03] Speaker 2: Mondays and Wednesdays, generally.
[53:05] Speaker 1: Mondays and Wednesdays. That's the Athletic Spurs podcast. You should
[53:07] Speaker 1: listen to that. Okay. Right. If we're ranking windows, how
[53:12] Speaker 1: do we rank this window? It's quite hard to rank,
[53:14] Speaker 1: isn't it, I would say? No, I think it's a
[53:16] Speaker 1: really good window. I think it's... The fact is, the
[53:19] Speaker 1: squad was obviously miles away from being good enough. Two
[53:22] Speaker 1: 17th place finishes in a row, don't lie. And they
[53:25] Speaker 1: were really bad. They'd been really bad for a while, basically.
[53:28] Speaker 2: And they needed a lot of good players in the
[53:31] Speaker 2: door early on. I think what we've seen from Tottenham
[53:34] Speaker 2: this summer is a completely radical rethink of how they
[53:37] Speaker 2: approach various aspects of the market.
[53:39] Speaker 1: So, fees.
[53:40] Speaker 2: They spent... The fees they paid for Savio, Fernandes and
[53:44] Speaker 2: Tonali are way in excess of anything they've paid in
[53:46] Speaker 2: the past. Their previous transfer record was about 55 million
[53:48] Speaker 2: for Kudus and Solanke. Salaries, again, they've shattered their... They
[53:53] Speaker 2: used to have a very, very regulated wage structure. That's
[53:56] Speaker 2: completely out the window now. They've realised that you can't
[54:00] Speaker 2: run a competitive football team in the Premier League without
[54:02] Speaker 2: paying big money. And so that's not... Big money is
[54:05] Speaker 2: obviously how they would have got in players like Tonali.
[54:07] Speaker 2: But also they gave massive new contracts to people like
[54:09] Speaker 2: Poirot and Van de Ven who will have more than
[54:11] Speaker 2: doubled their salaries over the course of this summer. And thirdly,
[54:14] Speaker 2: they've had a much more pragmatic approach to selling. I
[54:17] Speaker 2: think in the past Tottenham used to hang on to
[54:18] Speaker 2: players a bit too long. I think they used to
[54:20] Speaker 2: think like, unless we can sell someone in what I
[54:23] Speaker 2: call Gareth Bale's conditions for, as in you've got like
[54:26] Speaker 2: a really good player who is wanted by the biggest
[54:28] Speaker 2: teams in the world, you can sell him for £ 80 million.
[54:31] Speaker 2: They did in 2013. They kind of, other players, they
[54:34] Speaker 2: held on for too long. Like they kind of weren't
[54:37] Speaker 2: sure what to do with them. They didn't want to
[54:38] Speaker 2: get pushed around. They didn't sell at the right time.
[54:40] Speaker 2: And actually the whole Pochettino team went really stale for
[54:43] Speaker 2: this reason. And lots of guys who they could have
[54:45] Speaker 2: sold for really good money, you know, at certain points,
[54:48] Speaker 2: like Dele, Ericsson, Toby, Alderweireld and so on, like Eric Dyer,
[54:54] Speaker 2: Danny Rose, they didn't sell them at the right time.
[54:56] Speaker 2: They ended up leaving for practically nothing, right? So Spurs
[54:58] Speaker 2: lost out hundreds of millions of pounds of market value.
[55:01] Speaker 2: for clinging onto players for too long that is gone
[55:04] Speaker 2: so this summer they've been really pragmatic like guys who
[55:06] Speaker 2: are no guys who are kind of maybe a bit
[55:08] Speaker 2: down the pecking order or maybe a bit grumpy they've
[55:11] Speaker 2: gone they're all gone like so you know Romero who's
[55:14] Speaker 2: the captain gone not for a huge amount of money
[55:16] Speaker 2: like less than they paid for him which is a
[55:17] Speaker 2: bit of a surprise but he's out the door Spencer's
[55:20] Speaker 2: gone uh Vicario's gone yeah Saar's.
[55:23] Speaker 1: Gone Richarlison almost left yeah.
[55:25] Speaker 2: Danso's gone Richarlison let's wait and see there because there's
[55:27] Speaker 2: still a few days left to kind of transfer windows
[55:30] Speaker 2: outside other markets yeah um So that's like a kind
[55:33] Speaker 2: of core of the team really, from the last few years,
[55:36] Speaker 2: they've all gone, they've been very, they've been so ruthlessly
[55:40] Speaker 2: efficient in terms of getting bodies out of the building
[55:42] Speaker 2: and getting bodies into the building in a way they've
[55:44] Speaker 2: never been before. And the team looks very different. They
[55:48] Speaker 2: didn't get everything they wanted. They obviously wanted a kind
[55:51] Speaker 2: of top left winger in the last few days of
[55:53] Speaker 2: the market. They didn't get Gakpo. They didn't get NDI.
[55:57] Speaker 2: They've ended up with Mudrick, who I think is, I
[55:59] Speaker 2: think a lot of fans think that's a bit of
[56:01] Speaker 2: an odd one.
[56:01] Speaker 1: Roberto De Zerbi says he can will a Ballon d'Or
[56:03] Speaker 1: in the future.
[56:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, so De Zerbi obviously coached him at Shakhtar. a
[56:06] Speaker 2: few years ago when Madrid was coming through. And he was,
[56:09] Speaker 2: to be fair, electric in that period. Yeah, right.
[56:11] Speaker 1: That Champions League run they had.
[56:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a super, super, super talented player. And
[56:15] Speaker 2: Spurs do really need pace on the left. I guess
[56:17] Speaker 2: my issue with that is like, what is the difference
[56:22] Speaker 2: between Madrid and Tel? Because Mudrick's had this weird career,
[56:25] Speaker 2: it almost feels to me like Mudrick is now almost
[56:27] Speaker 2: a development player again. He's like a project player.
[56:29] Speaker 1: He's not played for... He's not played for.
[56:30] Speaker 2: Two years almost. And that's kind of... They already have
[56:33] Speaker 2: like a project left winger who is raw but needs
[56:35] Speaker 2: work in Tel. And they own Tel and they don't
[56:38] Speaker 2: own Mudrick. So I think that's a slightly odd one.
[56:41] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[56:41] Speaker 2: And he's clearly not the level of Gatpone and DI
[56:43] Speaker 2: who could go straight into the team and they could say, right,
[56:46] Speaker 2: we paid a lot of money for you. Give us
[56:48] Speaker 2: some goals and assists.
[56:49] Speaker 1: Is there an option or an obligation on Mudrick? Yeah,
[56:50] Speaker 1: there is an option on him. There is a big
[56:52] Speaker 1: option with Madrid. He said 50 million, didn't he? 75 million,
[56:55] Speaker 1: I believe we reported. I don't know. It feels weird
[56:58] Speaker 1: to me. I don't know.
[56:59] Speaker 6: It does feel a bit weird. It does feel a
[57:00] Speaker 6: bit weird. I think it's... You're doing the rehab for Chelsea, right?
[57:05] Speaker 6: And then if he's incredible, you're like, fine, we'll pay
[57:07] Speaker 6: the 75 million. But to hit that 75 million level...
[57:11] Speaker 6: I almost wonder whether it would be.
[57:14] Speaker 2: Maybe there's a world in which Madrid is pretty good,
[57:17] Speaker 2: but enjoys it and enjoys working with De Zerbi. De
[57:19] Speaker 2: Zerbi likes working with him. And maybe, I'm massively speculating here,
[57:23] Speaker 2: but maybe they could then negotiate a fee lower than
[57:26] Speaker 2: the option. That has happened in the past, right? Where
[57:31] Speaker 2: sometimes the buying and the selling club will just agree
[57:33] Speaker 2: something which is less than the option.
[57:36] Speaker 5: On paper, it just looks like Spurs are doing a
[57:39] Speaker 5: massive favour for Chelsea by rehabbing a player who hasn't
[57:41] Speaker 5: played for two years. And then the option is so
[57:44] Speaker 5: high that it's almost like the value isn't there for them.
[57:46] Speaker 5: If it had been like, 40 million, perhaps, you then say, okay.
[57:51] Speaker 2: On the flip side, the other way of looking at
[57:52] Speaker 2: it is the fact that it is an option rather
[57:54] Speaker 2: than obligation does give Tottenham a degree of control over
[57:57] Speaker 2: the situation. Like, if it was an obligation, then suddenly
[58:00] Speaker 2: Spurs would be on the hook for a lot of money.
[58:03] Speaker 1: Do you share, and we haven't spoken to you since
[58:05] Speaker 1: the Newcastle game at the weekend, do you share my
[58:08] Speaker 1: opinion about that although the result was bad, the performance
[58:11] Speaker 1: was okay, and Spurs will probably be fine, if by
[58:13] Speaker 1: fine we mean top half finish.
[58:16] Speaker 2: They played okay in Spurs. I think they will be
[58:18] Speaker 2: fine for the simple reason they've got good players. If
[58:20] Speaker 2: you've got good players and a good manager, you will
[58:23] Speaker 2: probably be okay. I think it will take them a long,
[58:26] Speaker 2: quite a while to become good and to click, because
[58:29] Speaker 2: they're effectively starting from scratch now. I know De Zerbi
[58:32] Speaker 2: got the job in March, but the last few games
[58:35] Speaker 2: of last season, they were fighting with their lives to
[58:37] Speaker 2: stay up, they were playing a very pragmatic brand of
[58:41] Speaker 2: football that was not like a deserby ball at all, really.
[58:43] Speaker 2: It was basically just, can we keep clean sheets and
[58:46] Speaker 2: somehow scrape goals?
[58:48] Speaker 1: Which they did.
[58:49] Speaker 2: Scrape goals?
[58:49] Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's the right verb. You can scrape goals.
[58:53] Speaker 2: And also with a bunch of guys who are not there.
[58:55] Speaker 2: You know, Colin Mawany's not there anymore. Polini is not
[58:57] Speaker 2: there anymore. Danso's not there. Romero's gone. So there's been
[59:02] Speaker 2: a big change in personnel. So I almost think this season,
[59:06] Speaker 2: I mean, you can kind of draw a line between
[59:09] Speaker 2: what happened. at the end of last season say Spurs
[59:11] Speaker 2: are starting again now and only now does Zerbi's going
[59:13] Speaker 2: to try and teach them the kind of complexities and
[59:17] Speaker 2: subtleties of his football but a lot of those guys
[59:20] Speaker 2: have just shown up because they've just been signed and
[59:22] Speaker 2: some of them have been at the World Cup and
[59:24] Speaker 2: like and you know they had a sort of slightly
[59:26] Speaker 2: choppy summer they had to go to Australia and New
[59:28] Speaker 2: Zealand on tour and then come back and So I
[59:32] Speaker 2: think it's.
[59:32] Speaker 1: Unfair to judge them soon.
[59:35] Speaker 2: I think it's fair to say, let's see how they're
[59:40] Speaker 2: doing in November and December. I do think not being
[59:44] Speaker 2: in Europe will be good for them because they'll have
[59:46] Speaker 2: more time on the training ground to work.
[59:48] Speaker 1: But ultimately, like a step back, big picture.
[59:52] Speaker 2: There is a huge amount of onus. Can you have
[59:55] Speaker 2: an amount of onus? There is a huge amount of
[59:56] Speaker 2: onus on Deserby to build a winning team because he's
[1:00:00] Speaker 2: got the good players.
[1:00:00] Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. Can I come in on this?
[1:00:02] Speaker 5: Me and Alex Barker have just done a video on
[1:00:05] Speaker 5: that game, Spurs versus Newcastle.
[1:00:07] Speaker 1: The Barkerzoid. Yeah.
[1:00:09] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:00:12] Speaker 1: That's coming out tomorrow, I think, tomorrow morning. Yeah, with
[1:00:14] Speaker 1: the Barkerzoid.
[1:00:14] Speaker 5: And what we were doing in that video is contrasting
[1:00:17] Speaker 5: the simplicity of Newcastle's approach with the complexity of of
[1:00:20] Speaker 5: Deserby's approach. But what I would say on the basis
[1:00:23] Speaker 5: of that game, I think that it's clear that Deserby
[1:00:26] Speaker 5: is having an immediate impact on these players, right? You
[1:00:29] Speaker 5: can see the plan unfolding. You can see that the
[1:00:31] Speaker 5: players understand what they're supposed to be doing from a theoretical.
[1:00:34] Speaker 1: Point of view. Put your foot on the ball.
[1:00:36] Speaker 5: In the first half, they found ways of doing what
[1:00:41] Speaker 5: Deserby wants, right? Which is this idea of creating space
[1:00:44] Speaker 5: in the middle and then having these tempo shifts through
[1:00:46] Speaker 5: the middle where they can then access the wing itself.
[1:00:49] Speaker 5: you know, early on there's that Matisse Tell, he had
[1:00:54] Speaker 5: a chance that, you know, pulled off a good save
[1:00:56] Speaker 5: from Hornacek. And there's a few other good examples of
[1:00:59] Speaker 5: like deserby football happening. But I think I have a
[1:01:02] Speaker 5: couple of worries about Spurs. One of them is that
[1:01:05] Speaker 5: in the second half, so in the first half, Newcastle
[1:01:10] Speaker 5: were quite, I think, conservative with their press. So they
[1:01:12] Speaker 5: pressed using a hybrid system, which means that you basically
[1:01:15] Speaker 5: under load. So there was two players covering three Spurs
[1:01:18] Speaker 5: players and you try and cheat between them to make
[1:01:20] Speaker 5: it feel like you're not getting that. In the second half,
[1:01:22] Speaker 5: Jaisal changed it up so they just went straight man
[1:01:24] Speaker 5: to man. So there was someone man marking Tenali entirely
[1:01:28] Speaker 5: the second half and Spurs looked much worse, I think,
[1:01:31] Speaker 5: in the second half.
[1:01:32] Speaker 1: And Tenali was substituted off as well, wasn't he? Yeah.
[1:01:35] Speaker 5: The other thing is that in the first half, there
[1:01:37] Speaker 5: was plenty of situations where if it wasn't Sandro Tenali
[1:01:40] Speaker 5: in the spot that he was in, I think Spurs
[1:01:42] Speaker 5: would have actually progressed the ball much better. And I
[1:01:45] Speaker 5: wonder whether or not that is going to be the
[1:01:47] Speaker 5: thing that actually does for Deserby in the end, because I.
[1:01:49] Speaker 1: Which is worrying when we got to the end of
[1:01:52] Speaker 1: Jack's list and he was the top player. Yeah, right.
[1:01:55] Speaker 5: And, you know, Tenali is a fantastic player. He's fantastic
[1:01:57] Speaker 5: in certain phases of play. I still struggle to understand that.
[1:02:01] Speaker 5: And the upsides you get in one phase of play,
[1:02:03] Speaker 5: like almost clash with the upsides in another phase of play.
[1:02:06] Speaker 1: So.
[1:02:07] Speaker 5: If you can't build through the middle as well with
[1:02:09] Speaker 5: Sonali because he's not as good at receiving with his
[1:02:11] Speaker 5: back to goal, his positioning was a little bit off
[1:02:14] Speaker 5: at times, and he's just not as technically good as
[1:02:17] Speaker 5: someone like, I think, Mates Fernandes in that kind of role.
[1:02:21] Speaker 5: Then what you do is you move him into the
[1:02:22] Speaker 5: wide areas and then you try and progress the ball
[1:02:24] Speaker 5: in the wide areas with him making runs. You lose
[1:02:27] Speaker 5: the ball in the wide areas because it's harder to
[1:02:28] Speaker 5: progress the ball in the wide areas because in the
[1:02:30] Speaker 5: middle you have 180 degrees to progress into. You only
[1:02:33] Speaker 5: have 90 degrees in the wide areas. It makes it
[1:02:36] Speaker 5: easier for the opponents to defend in those wide areas.
[1:02:38] Speaker 5: And there's a number of occasions where Tenali is making
[1:02:41] Speaker 5: runs down the line, which he's really good at, and
[1:02:44] Speaker 5: adds that burst of pace. If they lose the ball
[1:02:46] Speaker 5: in those scenarios, their large space defender, who is supposed
[1:02:49] Speaker 5: to be in the middle for these transition moments, isn't there.
[1:02:52] Speaker 5: And so there's just so many little things like that.
[1:02:55] Speaker 5: And I just think the problem now is that Deserby
[1:02:58] Speaker 5: has to sort of play Tenali. because he's the hundred
[1:03:01] Speaker 5: million pound player, if you start dropping him more and
[1:03:04] Speaker 5: more or hooking him up at certain points in the game,
[1:03:07] Speaker 5: I think it becomes very hard for him to get
[1:03:09] Speaker 5: the buy-in that he needs to get. And again, for me,
[1:03:12] Speaker 5: it's a timing thing, right? I think they're a low floor,
[1:03:15] Speaker 5: high ceiling approach, right? The ceiling is really high. If
[1:03:17] Speaker 5: you can get everyone clicking and suddenly the positioning is perfect,
[1:03:21] Speaker 5: the body shape is perfect and the passes are perfect.
[1:03:25] Speaker 5: But the problem is, is it a low floor approach
[1:03:27] Speaker 5: when it doesn't work? And that's the question. Are they
[1:03:29] Speaker 5: going to keep banging against the floor for too long
[1:03:31] Speaker 5: that he doesn't get the time to actually develop the
[1:03:34] Speaker 5: complexity of the approach?
[1:03:36] Speaker 1: I don't know. But that's sort of where I'm at
[1:03:37] Speaker 1: with Spurs right now. Okay. Fascinating, isn't it? Yes. Make
[1:03:42] Speaker 1: that noise again, Kaya. There it is. I like that noise. Okay,
[1:03:44] Speaker 1: let's have a quick advertisement break. Okay. Let's talk about
[1:03:51] Speaker 1: Man City's new midfield. Man City, I don't know if
[1:03:52] Speaker 1: you know, Man City have a new midfield. They spent
[1:03:55] Speaker 1: the Norfolk... Make that noise one more time, Kaya. There
[1:03:57] Speaker 1: it is. I love that noise. It sounds like you've
[1:04:00] Speaker 1: seen a tasty cake on a window sill. A toffee donut.
[1:04:03] Speaker 1: Do you remember back in the day when old cartoons
[1:04:06] Speaker 1: used to just be... A lot of the time there
[1:04:07] Speaker 1: was either a war going on or there was a character...
[1:04:11] Speaker 1: that was being drawn towards the smell of a pie
[1:04:14] Speaker 1: on a windowsill. That's a loony tune. Who was leaving
[1:04:17] Speaker 1: their pies on windowsills? The smell would sort of turn
[1:04:18] Speaker 1: into a thing that would tap you on the shoulder sometimes. Absolutely.
[1:04:23] Speaker 1: But who in the past was leaving these freshly baked
[1:04:26] Speaker 1: pies on windowsills? To cool down.
[1:04:28] Speaker 4: So they cool down.
[1:04:29] Speaker 1: No, but what about the insects?
[1:04:30] Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, no.
[1:04:31] Speaker 2: LAUGHTER Like those Facebook groups for old people which are like,
[1:04:38] Speaker 2: who remembers?
[1:04:39] Speaker 1: Who remembers when mums used to bake pies and leave
[1:04:41] Speaker 1: them on the windowsill for passing school children to smell
[1:04:44] Speaker 1: as they walked back home? Yesterday, I watched all of
[1:04:48] Speaker 1: a documentary on the BBC Archive YouTube channel. All of
[1:04:54] Speaker 1: a documentary? It's the best YouTube channel ever created. Oh, wow.
[1:04:59] Speaker 1: The BBC are just... Dumping, dumping and dumping these incredible
[1:05:03] Speaker 1: old programs that ran throughout the decades on YouTube with
[1:05:08] Speaker 1: not so much dumping, with some catering. But there is
[1:05:11] Speaker 1: a fantastic one. It was made by Martin Parr, who
[1:05:14] Speaker 1: was a photojournalist, a famous photojournalist of the last decade,
[1:05:18] Speaker 1: of the last century, sorry. And it was set in 1999,
[1:05:23] Speaker 1: and he travels the length and breadth of England. And
[1:05:25] Speaker 1: the question is just, what do you think of England?
[1:05:27] Speaker 1: That's it. He's behind the camera. There's fantastic scenes of
[1:05:31] Speaker 1: Blackpool on the night out where people are getting raucous
[1:05:34] Speaker 1: and crazy. Lovely scenes of the windy south coast of London,
[1:05:38] Speaker 1: of Manchester. And I was sat there thinking... I got
[1:05:41] Speaker 1: caught in that trap of thinking, oh, it was better
[1:05:43] Speaker 1: in the past. Wasn't it better in the past? And
[1:05:46] Speaker 1: then you go, no, it wasn't. It wasn't. It was
[1:05:48] Speaker 1: a lie in the past that it was better. Or
[1:05:50] Speaker 1: was it better in the past? Maybe it was for
[1:05:52] Speaker 1: a man as privileged as myself. Perhaps it was better
[1:05:54] Speaker 1: in the past. But it wasn't better in the past
[1:05:56] Speaker 1: for everyone. Although... Could it have been better in the past?
[1:06:00] Speaker 1: Maybe if you look at the past in the smaller
[1:06:02] Speaker 1: window of time and not a larger window of time,
[1:06:04] Speaker 1: because there's an ascending line over time, but you wouldn't
[1:06:07] Speaker 1: say that there's not these ups and downs along the way.
[1:06:08] Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying? Why am I talking
[1:06:10] Speaker 1: about this? How did I get here?
[1:06:12] Speaker 5: My favorite things are the ones, you know, when they
[1:06:14] Speaker 5: interview children in like the 1970s and they all have
[1:06:17] Speaker 5: RP and they ask them questions like, what will the
[1:06:19] Speaker 5: future look like?
[1:06:20] Speaker 1: I would like to grow up to be a firefighter.
[1:06:22] Speaker 1: I think people have flying cars.
[1:06:24] Speaker 5: And then there'll be someone be like, I think, that
[1:06:26] Speaker 5: women should have rights and eventually it will happen.
[1:06:29] Speaker 1: You're just like, okay. And then occasionally you'll say, I
[1:06:32] Speaker 1: think that there'll be some sort of complicated interconnective system
[1:06:36] Speaker 1: of computers in the future that will reduce social interaction
[1:06:38] Speaker 1: and everyone will be very sad and lonely. And you go,
[1:06:41] Speaker 1: that's stupid, you stupid kid. Get back in the estate,
[1:06:44] Speaker 1: you know? Anyway, the past is fun, isn't it?
[1:06:48] Speaker 4: It's good. I'm just wondering when John thinks women got
[1:06:52] Speaker 4: the right to vote.
[1:06:52] Speaker 1: LAUGHTER Look, these are very old videos. It's all resolved now, Steve.
[1:06:59] Speaker 2: It's fine.
[1:07:00] Speaker 1: The surgery doesn't exist. It's gone. Now is better than
[1:07:04] Speaker 1: the past. Yes, of course. Now is better than the past.
[1:07:08] Speaker 1: For Manchester City, perhaps it is because they've bought a
[1:07:10] Speaker 1: new midfield, including many other places. Now, JPB, without looking
[1:07:14] Speaker 1: at your computer, and I'm glad to see you still
[1:07:16] Speaker 1: have it closed, please recite as many of Man City's
[1:07:19] Speaker 1: deals as you can remember. I will tell you that
[1:07:22] Speaker 1: I have here on my list, I have nine of them.
[1:07:25] Speaker 1: You don't have to do them in ascending order if
[1:07:26] Speaker 1: you don't want to, but if you want to make
[1:07:27] Speaker 1: it more complicated, you can.
[1:07:30] Speaker 2: Geronimo Rulli.
[1:07:33] Speaker 1: Yes, now you're starting in ascending order. That's perfect. From Marseille, 3.5
[1:07:37] Speaker 1: million euros. That's the smallest deal.
[1:07:39] Speaker 2: Jeremy Munger.
[1:07:41] Speaker 1: Now that, you're skipping one.
[1:07:42] Speaker 5: You're missing a goalkeeper from Northern Ireland whose brother recently
[1:07:47] Speaker 5: signed for Fulham.
[1:07:48] Speaker 1: And whose namesake was James Brown. You're missing Pierce Charles.
[1:07:55] Speaker 1: Sheffield Wednesday, three and a half million euros. I don't
[1:07:57] Speaker 1: think you should be expected to know that one. We'll
[1:07:58] Speaker 1: still clap you. Jeremy Monger, yes, from Leicester, 11 million euros. Alan?
[1:08:04] Speaker 1: Alan's a bit of a... Yeah, one more. You're jumping
[1:08:07] Speaker 1: Matthias de Torbay. Never heard of him. Never heard of him. Well,
[1:08:11] Speaker 1: they spent 25 million euros on him. From Troyes? Troyes.
[1:08:15] Speaker 1: There's some sort of.
[1:08:17] Speaker 2: As in Treaty of Troyes. Yeah.
[1:08:19] Speaker 1: Troyes?
[1:08:20] Speaker 5: Maybe.
[1:08:20] Speaker 1: Hmm? Yeah. Well, anyway... Did that settle the Hundred Years' War? Troyes.
[1:08:26] Speaker 2: The Treaty of Troyes.
[1:08:27] Speaker 1: Is that what it does? Is that the one that
[1:08:29] Speaker 1: ended the Hundred... So, like, the Versailles... Is what the
[1:08:31] Speaker 1: Versailles was to World War I. 1420 peace agreement that
[1:08:34] Speaker 1: made King Henry V of England the heir and regent
[1:08:37] Speaker 1: to the French throne.
[1:08:39] Speaker 2: Oh!
[1:08:39] Speaker 1: Sadly, he never actually got to become King of France.
[1:08:42] Speaker 1: That is a shame, isn't it? Because that would make
[1:08:44] Speaker 1: us the kings of France now. Why did he not
[1:08:46] Speaker 1: become the king of France?
[1:08:49] Speaker 2: He died. I think he died soon after that on
[1:08:51] Speaker 2: the battlefield. And so I think his son... I think
[1:08:54] Speaker 2: when Henry VI became king, England tried to say, well,
[1:08:58] Speaker 2: of course he's king of France too. and then french
[1:09:00] Speaker 2: said i'm not sure not so sure about that and
[1:09:03] Speaker 2: then there were because it hadn't been ratified um no
[1:09:07] Speaker 2: i think he was kind of bullshit like i i'm
[1:09:09] Speaker 2: not sure i think the english were i think we
[1:09:12] Speaker 2: were kind of taking the piss a bit with the
[1:09:13] Speaker 2: right like henry the fifth really had no claim to
[1:09:16] Speaker 2: be king of france it was all It was all
[1:09:19] Speaker 2: based on, I mean, this is what the first few
[1:09:21] Speaker 2: scenes of the play Henry V are about, are basically
[1:09:24] Speaker 2: cooking up this, like, bullshit reason to invade France, based on, like,
[1:09:30] Speaker 2: if you think about it, Henry V is kind of
[1:09:33] Speaker 2: the rightful king of France, isn't he?
[1:09:34] Speaker 1: And they just kind of cook it up. But there
[1:09:37] Speaker 1: were no weapons of mass destruction.
[1:09:38] Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah. And I've seen, like, it's quite common. There
[1:09:42] Speaker 2: was certainly a point, like, in the After the Iraq War,
[1:09:46] Speaker 2: where if you went to a production of Henry V,
[1:09:48] Speaker 2: they would massively ham up the extent to which this
[1:09:51] Speaker 2: was like Iraq.
[1:09:52] Speaker 1: WMDs. Yeah.
[1:09:55] Speaker 2: But the upshot of this was after the success of
[1:09:58] Speaker 2: Henry V going over there and Agincourt and so on.
[1:10:01] Speaker 2: it got England into a position where they could say,
[1:10:03] Speaker 2: oh yeah, we know, he really is king. Maybe not
[1:10:05] Speaker 2: right now, but when the current French king dies, we
[1:10:08] Speaker 2: are totally the kings of France. And obviously it didn't,
[1:10:11] Speaker 2: in the end, it didn't come to pass.
[1:10:13] Speaker 1: It's cool to try though, isn't it? It's kind of
[1:10:16] Speaker 1: the same as me saying, I am the king of France.
[1:10:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, why not give it a go?
[1:10:19] Speaker 1: Cook it up. Just give it a try.
[1:10:21] Speaker 2: Some Salek Law.
[1:10:21] Speaker 1: Like when Arsenal tried to buy Vinicius Junior, you know.
[1:10:24] Speaker 1: We are the king of Vinicius Junior. We are the
[1:10:26] Speaker 1: king of Vinicius Junior. Actually, we do own him. Yeah,
[1:10:28] Speaker 1: you've wasted enough time to think of the next player.
[1:10:31] Speaker 2: So not in order anymore.
[1:10:33] Speaker 1: No, that's fine.
[1:10:33] Speaker 2: Illiman Ndiaye.
[1:10:34] Speaker 1: Yes, of course. It is in order, though.
[1:10:37] Speaker 2: Ayub Bouadi.
[1:10:38] Speaker 1: Yes, still in order.
[1:10:39] Speaker 2: Elliot Anderson.
[1:10:40] Speaker 1: Yes, still in order. And... Just happened a couple of
[1:10:45] Speaker 1: days ago, the big one. The big boy. Yes, well done.
[1:10:50] Speaker 1: Another round of applause for JP. Congratulations.
[1:10:53] Speaker 2: Okay.
[1:10:54] Speaker 1: I mean, do you know what? I don't want to
[1:10:56] Speaker 1: say this sounds crazy. I think it might be because
[1:10:58] Speaker 1: I wasn't paying attention rather than because it's actually true
[1:11:01] Speaker 1: in a kind of zeitgeisty way. But my first question was,
[1:11:05] Speaker 1: did Man City kind of just sort of quietly build
[1:11:08] Speaker 1: what could be the best Premier League midfield? I didn't
[1:11:11] Speaker 1: really notice them doing it because it happened over a
[1:11:13] Speaker 1: long period of time.
[1:11:13] Speaker 2: It's kind of weird, isn't it? Because City.
[1:11:16] Speaker 2: City were so good, I think, for a long time
[1:11:20] Speaker 2: at stability and squad planning.
[1:11:22] Speaker 1: Yes.
[1:11:23] Speaker 2: If you go back to the start of Pep, in midfield,
[1:11:26] Speaker 2: they would have Fernandinho, Davies Silva, De Bruyne, they'd have
[1:11:30] Speaker 2: Gundogan as well.
[1:11:31] Speaker 1: Yaya Toure even at the very beginning, right?
[1:11:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, but Pep kind of dropped him early on. So
[1:11:36] Speaker 2: they basically had those four midfielders and it was a
[1:11:38] Speaker 2: case of how do you fit all four of them?
[1:11:39] Speaker 2: Do you go to a box? And then over time,
[1:11:42] Speaker 2: they would steadily... integrate new guys who came in so
[1:11:45] Speaker 2: obviously like David Silva retired Bernardo like generally played out
[1:11:50] Speaker 2: wide but could play them played a bit more in midfield.
[1:11:52] Speaker 1: Over time he's the perfect example because like Bernardo Silva's
[1:11:56] Speaker 1: like curve into being totally vital was so slow and
[1:11:59] Speaker 1: natural that I.
[1:12:00] Speaker 2: Almost didn't notice that it happened but when he came
[1:12:02] Speaker 2: in he would kind of be like a like a
[1:12:04] Speaker 2: clever little option on the right wing and then over
[1:12:06] Speaker 2: time he became the orchestrator of the whole thing yeah
[1:12:09] Speaker 2: so he came in obviously Rodri came in after kind
[1:12:13] Speaker 2: of like Fernandinho passed the baton over to him and
[1:12:16] Speaker 2: it was all very smooth and considered.
[1:12:19] Speaker 1: Phil Foden. Foden obviously started moving into midfield positions too.
[1:12:22] Speaker 1: It was marvellous.
[1:12:23] Speaker 2: But it's been, in the last like two years, that's
[1:12:26] Speaker 2: all changed, right? And it's been like, De Bruyne's gone,
[1:12:28] Speaker 2: Gundogan's gone, Rodri's now gone, Bernardo's now gone. they tried
[1:12:33] Speaker 2: other new guys who came in like Kovacic has never
[1:12:35] Speaker 2: really convinced me Reinders came in and like did one season.
[1:12:38] Speaker 1: They brought in Matthias Nunes to play as a midfielder
[1:12:41] Speaker 1: and ended up he's now.
[1:12:41] Speaker 2: Right back like Reinders didn't really work out and so
[1:12:44] Speaker 2: all of a sudden they need a whole new midfielder
[1:12:46] Speaker 2: they'd never really been in this position before because it's
[1:12:48] Speaker 2: all been so smooth for the last like 10 years
[1:12:50] Speaker 2: in the middle of the pitch and it's going to
[1:12:54] Speaker 2: be really interesting to see how it works I kind
[1:12:56] Speaker 2: of don't know I assume that Anderson will play as
[1:12:59] Speaker 2: the six with like And then they've got to make
[1:13:02] Speaker 2: use of Fernandes getting into the box because that's what
[1:13:04] Speaker 2: he's so good at. And then Bouadi linking in between.
[1:13:07] Speaker 1: But I don't really know. I don't know. What do
[1:13:09] Speaker 1: you think, Kai? Do you think this could be the
[1:13:10] Speaker 1: best midfielder in the Premier League? No. Why don't you
[1:13:14] Speaker 1: think that? Who's the best midfielder in the Premier League, Kai?
[1:13:16] Speaker 1: Who's got the best midfielder in the Premier League, Kai?
[1:13:18] Speaker 4: Is this even a fucking conversation?
[1:13:19] Speaker 6: First, and then I'll answer your second question second. So
[1:13:22] Speaker 6: on your first question, I don't think so because I
[1:13:25] Speaker 6: have questions about how it all fits. So, like Jack
[1:13:28] Speaker 6: was outlining there, Ray Ancherky is... probably City's most creative
[1:13:32] Speaker 6: and arguably one of the most important players right now.
[1:13:34] Speaker 6: So you kind of think he has to play.
[1:13:35] Speaker 1: You've got to have him in the team. He has
[1:13:37] Speaker 1: to play. He has to play. But then how do
[1:13:39] Speaker 1: you have him and Foden and Anson and Bouadi? It
[1:13:42] Speaker 1: doesn't quite work. And Fernandes.
[1:13:46] Speaker 6: Fernandes I meant to say sorry yes I meant to
[1:13:48] Speaker 6: say how do you have Cherokee Fernandes Anderson and Bouadi
[1:13:50] Speaker 6: yeah doesn't quite work so one of those near 100
[1:13:53] Speaker 6: million pounds basically 100 million pound midfielders is going to
[1:13:55] Speaker 6: have to be on the bench it's going to be
[1:13:57] Speaker 6: Bouadi it's probably going to be Bouadi which to be
[1:13:58] Speaker 6: fair as an 18 year old isn't the worst thing
[1:14:00] Speaker 6: in the world allowing him to adapt slowly I mean
[1:14:02] Speaker 6: they brought him.
[1:14:02] Speaker 5: On last weekend and he played 25 minutes and looked
[1:14:07] Speaker 5: he's a very good player he looked fine he looked
[1:14:08] Speaker 5: very good player he didn't.
[1:14:09] Speaker 1: Look out of place at all.
[1:14:10] Speaker 6: I just feel like the Fernandes and Anderson duo kind
[1:14:14] Speaker 6: of Can we call them the Fernandeson, please? The Fernandeson
[1:14:17] Speaker 6: partnership kind of limits a lot of their best capabilities
[1:14:22] Speaker 6: in time. So you're asking Anderson to do a lot
[1:14:26] Speaker 6: of the off-the-ball work that Fernandes isn't as good at,
[1:14:30] Speaker 6: which kind of takes away a lot of what he
[1:14:32] Speaker 6: was really good at at Nottingham Forest when he was
[1:14:34] Speaker 6: partnered alongside like a Sangare and he could kind of
[1:14:36] Speaker 6: be a bridge in between Sangare and Gibbs White and
[1:14:38] Speaker 6: it kind of worked pretty well for him. I, you know,
[1:14:41] Speaker 6: initially when Anderson came in and this is very, right
[1:14:43] Speaker 6: at the start of the summer, I don't think City
[1:14:44] Speaker 6: were planning to sell Rodri at that time. And the
[1:14:47] Speaker 6: idea of Rodri and Anderson as a midfield duo to
[1:14:48] Speaker 6: me made perfect sense. Anderson and Bouadi makes perfect sense
[1:14:52] Speaker 6: to me as well. I think if you have Anderson
[1:14:55] Speaker 6: and Fernandes, you kind of.
[1:14:56] Speaker 1: Fernandes. Fernandes, sorry.
[1:14:59] Speaker 6: Anderson's not quite as good at progressing the ball as
[1:15:01] Speaker 6: a Bouadi or Rodri in the past. And I think
[1:15:04] Speaker 6: Fernandes in a two at Chelsea never really convinced me.
[1:15:07] Speaker 6: And I don't think he ever really necessarily convinced me
[1:15:09] Speaker 6: that much in a three. But because of Chirky we've outlined,
[1:15:12] Speaker 6: he can't really play in a three. So I've got
[1:15:14] Speaker 6: some questions about how it works and the balance of
[1:15:16] Speaker 6: it all. And for me, Fernandes, I felt like they
[1:15:20] Speaker 6: had it perfect with Brady, Anderson and Chirky. I think
[1:15:22] Speaker 6: that's a brilliant midfield. Fernandes coming in. With the level
[1:15:26] Speaker 6: of status of 125 million and, you know, joint British
[1:15:29] Speaker 6: record fee transfer.
[1:15:30] Speaker 1: And he's going to play because Maresca loves him, right?
[1:15:32] Speaker 6: Exactly that. But it kind of, for me, feels like
[1:15:34] Speaker 6: it's a bit indulgent almost and it's kind of messed
[1:15:38] Speaker 6: up the perfect mix they had in midfield a little bit. But,
[1:15:41] Speaker 6: you know, he does have strengths and like the box
[1:15:43] Speaker 6: crashing thing will work quite well for City because of
[1:15:45] Speaker 6: the way they generate chances and that kind of stuff.
[1:15:47] Speaker 1: Make that noise again. There it is. That's the end
[1:15:50] Speaker 1: of the show. JPB, thank you very much. Thanks for
[1:15:52] Speaker 1: having me. John McKenzie, thank you.
[1:15:54] Speaker 2: Cheers.
[1:15:54] Speaker 1: Kaya. There it is.
[1:15:57] Speaker 2: Look, we've found a new thing.
[1:15:58] Speaker 1: It's just you going, Steve Hankey, thank you. Steve Hankey,
[1:16:03] Speaker 1: thank you, I should say. And we will be back. Well,
[1:16:05] Speaker 1: we've got Ring for Analysis on Saturday. As a reminder,
[1:16:08] Speaker 1: that's not on YouTube. It's just you can find it
[1:16:11] Speaker 1: on Spotify or Apple, wherever you get your audio podcasts.
[1:16:14] Speaker 1: We will be live streaming with Jack Collins and John
[1:16:17] Speaker 1: McKenzie on Sunday after the Arsenal-Chelsea game. What a big one.
[1:16:20] Speaker 1: That will be very exciting. And of course, we'll be
[1:16:22] Speaker 1: back on Tuesday, the normal time next week as well.
[1:16:25] Speaker 1: But until then, ta-ra, farewell, goodbye, adieu.

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