# Xabi Alonso_s Chelsea _ Premier League Tactical Chaos(M4A_128K)

An episode of [Footbal Beyond the Pitch](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6821032841), 20 Oct 2026, 1 h 07 min.

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## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Beginning again as though none of this ever happened. Here
[0:02] Speaker 1: we go. Hello and welcome to the TIFO Football Podcast.
[0:09] Speaker 1: I'm Joe Devine and we're coming to you live from
[0:12] Speaker 1: the Athletics offices in London on a Sunday evening after
[0:16] Speaker 1: an afternoon of lovely football. Now, Chelsea beat Brighton 4-3
[0:21] Speaker 1: today with three goals before half-time to give new manager
[0:24] Speaker 1: Xabi Alonso a victory in his first official match at
[0:27] Speaker 1: Stamford Bridge. But they did so with, according to Daniel's
[0:31] Speaker 1: story on Twitter, they did so with the lowest possession
[0:34] Speaker 1: they've had at Stamford Bridge in 15 years, which is
[0:37] Speaker 1: pretty shocking and fits a theme that we've been discussing
[0:40] Speaker 1: here on Tifa Football Podcasts for the last few weeks.
[0:44] Speaker 1: Have we entered a new tactical era? Well, that's what
[0:46] Speaker 1: we are talking about today. And to do that, I'm
[0:49] Speaker 1: joined by John McKenzie.
[0:50] Speaker 2: Hello.
[0:51] Speaker 1: And Kaya Kynak.
[0:51] Speaker 2: Hey, Joe.
[0:52] Speaker 1: All right. Incidentally, it's worth saying on tomorrow or Tuesday
[0:56] Speaker 1: morning's podcast, I'll be joined by Tom Harris, Colin Miller,
[0:58] Speaker 1: Ruben Pender. We're going to talk about Man United's 5-2
[1:00] Speaker 1: victory over Ipswich and other results from the weekend as well.
[1:03] Speaker 1: But today we'll be dedicated to Chelsea and talking about
[1:07] Speaker 1: the new tactical era. Did I miss anything? No, I
[1:13] Speaker 1: don't think so.
[1:13] Speaker 2: Don't think so.
[1:14] Speaker 1: All right. This is where I'll add music later.
[1:18] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:20] Speaker 1: Okay, let's begin. Now, as I said in the intro there, John,
[1:23] Speaker 1: Chelsea had 26% possession today at Stamford Bridge against Brighton,
[1:29] Speaker 1: which I think in any other season would be sort
[1:31] Speaker 1: of shocking. Although it's not really in this one. Here's
[1:35] Speaker 1: the first question. Is the broad consensus that Pep Guardiola's domination, possession,
[1:40] Speaker 1: domination style of football, you know, is the way that
[1:43] Speaker 1: elite teams should play? Is that broad consensus now broken
[1:47] Speaker 1: in this new era?
[1:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of nuance to this question, I think,
[1:50] Speaker 3: because on the one hand, Pep Guardiola is no longer
[1:53] Speaker 3: the manager of Manchester City. And you could probably make
[1:57] Speaker 3: the argument that he was the guy who persuaded everyone
[2:01] Speaker 3: that they should try and get high possession in order
[2:05] Speaker 3: to dominate games in that way. And he's not there anymore.
[2:08] Speaker 3: So was anyone else actually doing that outside of him?
[2:11] Speaker 3: Is that really going to be there? But I do
[2:13] Speaker 3: think there's a few interesting things that we can talk
[2:15] Speaker 3: about here. One of the things is something that I
[2:17] Speaker 3: noticed at the end of last season, and it's a
[2:19] Speaker 3: trend that's been happening over number of seasons now two
[2:22] Speaker 3: seasons really you can see if you actually put the
[2:25] Speaker 3: spread of all the teams in the premier league per
[2:27] Speaker 3: possession share across all of their games into a sort
[2:30] Speaker 3: of scatter plot across a line to show the the
[2:33] Speaker 3: ones with the most possession at the top and the
[2:35] Speaker 3: ones with the least possession at the bottom you generally
[2:38] Speaker 3: end up over the last decade with the the best
[2:40] Speaker 3: teams having you know 70 60 to 70 percent possession
[2:44] Speaker 3: across all of their games on average yeah and the
[2:45] Speaker 3: relegation teams usually being the ones that have you know
[2:48] Speaker 3: 30 percent And what we've seen over the last couple
[2:50] Speaker 3: of seasons.
[2:50] Speaker 1: Which we think is largely true across all top five Europeans.
[2:53] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[2:54] Speaker 1: Maybe to a greater or lesser extent.
[2:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
[2:56] Speaker 1: But that was true of football at the elite level
[2:58] Speaker 1: as opposed to just specifically football.
[3:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
[3:01] Speaker 3: And what we've started to see over the last couple
[3:03] Speaker 3: of seasons is that narrowing down. So the teams at
[3:05] Speaker 3: the top having less possession, the teams at the bottom
[3:08] Speaker 3: having more. So the teams at the bottom finding a
[3:10] Speaker 3: way of... of actually breaking that possession dominance a little
[3:14] Speaker 3: bit and you know the way that the league is
[3:17] Speaker 3: headed this season suggests that that narrowing down will continue further.
[3:21] Speaker 3: The other thing to say is that when we're talking
[3:23] Speaker 3: about that Guardiola consensus which is actually if you can
[3:27] Speaker 3: possess the ball well enough you can control games well
[3:30] Speaker 3: enough to dominate them you know that's something that we're
[3:34] Speaker 3: just not seeing as much anymore there's very few teams.
[3:37] Speaker 2: Where where that's actually happening.
[3:38] Speaker 3: And, you know, people will point to maybe Man City
[3:42] Speaker 3: this season as an example of a team where they
[3:44] Speaker 3: are still getting high possession. But I was at the
[3:46] Speaker 3: game at Selhurst Park at the weekend. And what was
[3:50] Speaker 3: so interesting for me about that was that actually at
[3:52] Speaker 3: the beginning it felt as though, you know, City weren't
[3:56] Speaker 3: necessarily dominating possession in the way that you would expect,
[3:59] Speaker 3: which is territorial domination, like forcing the opponent really deep
[4:03] Speaker 3: into a low block, which they then broke down. The
[4:06] Speaker 3: game was sort of on a level of parity until...
[4:09] Speaker 3: Erling Haaland scored the first goal and then we got
[4:12] Speaker 3: Ryan Schurke scoring the second goal. Then it changed the,
[4:15] Speaker 3: once I got that two goal buffer, it started allowing
[4:18] Speaker 3: City to do something quite different to what Guardiola did,
[4:20] Speaker 3: which was possess the ball deeper in the field. So
[4:22] Speaker 3: they're still trying to possess the ball, but rather than
[4:25] Speaker 3: trying to possess it high up the pitch, they were
[4:26] Speaker 3: happier in part because Palace weren't pressing out to hold
[4:31] Speaker 3: it deeper in the field as well. So there's still
[4:33] Speaker 3: going to be some kind of, possession is still going
[4:35] Speaker 3: to be important to an extent, I think.
[4:37] Speaker 1: But it's about this idea also that you know tactical
[4:40] Speaker 1: diversity in terms of the different styles of approaches is
[4:42] Speaker 1: maybe you know the thing that will win the day
[4:44] Speaker 1: as opposed to this thing that guardiola did is now
[4:47] Speaker 1: is now entirely dead it's maybe more the thing that's
[4:50] Speaker 1: maybe dead is that this is the only way to.
[4:52] Speaker 3: Yeah absolutely so i have a section in my book
[4:54] Speaker 3: called the death that the death of dominance i've got
[4:56] Speaker 3: a book i've got a book and the yeah the
[4:58] Speaker 3: audio version is available we've not mentioned it yet but you.
[5:02] Speaker 1: Oh yeah it's read by ronald kerman.
[5:04] Speaker 2: That's right yeah It's not. It's read by Joe.
[5:07] Speaker 1: It's read by me. In a Dutch accent.
[5:08] Speaker 2: But it is now available on Spotify and... Audible. Audible. Audible.
[5:14] Speaker 1: And the internet.
[5:15] Speaker 2: And the internet, yeah. What were we saying? Oh, yeah.
[5:18] Speaker 3: There's a section in my book titled The Death of Dominance.
[5:21] Speaker 3: And the idea is that actually Guardiola had this sort
[5:23] Speaker 3: of one-size-fits-all way of playing, which he could force opponents
[5:27] Speaker 3: into and then control games in that way. That's probably
[5:30] Speaker 3: now gone. That doesn't mean to say it's not still
[5:32] Speaker 3: a useful way of playing. It just means that other
[5:34] Speaker 3: ways are... valuable yeah it's not the way of playing
[5:37] Speaker 3: and so what's really interesting about the premier league right
[5:40] Speaker 3: now is that we're starting to see that at the
[5:41] Speaker 3: elite sides so a good example arsenal in their community
[5:45] Speaker 3: shield a game they deservedly won they had 40 possession
[5:48] Speaker 3: which you know usually in a game between city and
[5:51] Speaker 3: arsenal if one of the teams had 40 you'd probably
[5:54] Speaker 3: be like oh they don't deserve to win this game
[5:55] Speaker 3: they've not really dominated so we're starting to see a
[5:58] Speaker 3: shift of of what that domination looks like it doesn't
[6:01] Speaker 3: have to look like possession domination it can be domination
[6:04] Speaker 3: of chances or creating chances in ways that don't require
[6:08] Speaker 3: a huge amount of possession on the ball and actually
[6:10] Speaker 3: I think all of this coincides with the fact that
[6:11] Speaker 3: the Premier League is now full of very very good
[6:14] Speaker 3: players to the extent that you can sort of just
[6:17] Speaker 3: you know, have an excursion into the opposition box or
[6:21] Speaker 3: the opposition half and create a chance and score it.
[6:23] Speaker 2: And that's enough.
[6:25] Speaker 3: And we're seeing, I think, game state as a result
[6:26] Speaker 3: becoming really quite important. A lot of teams, if they
[6:29] Speaker 3: can get into a positive game state, then that becomes
[6:31] Speaker 3: the point at which they can then start worrying a
[6:33] Speaker 3: bit more about possession or less about possession and defend
[6:36] Speaker 3: deeper potentially and not have to worry too much about
[6:39] Speaker 3: controlling the game in other ways as well. So, yeah,
[6:41] Speaker 3: I think we're in a really interesting juncture.
[6:44] Speaker 1: Right A fruitful juncture.
[6:46] Speaker 2: I think so. Could I just read one quote from
[6:48] Speaker 2: Arteta as well? This is from.
[6:49] Speaker 1: Mikel Arteta, who's the Arsenal manager. We should make sure
[6:52] Speaker 1: everyone knows who that is.
[6:53] Speaker 2: You can always read a quote from Mikel Arteta. Yeah,
[6:55] Speaker 2: that's good.
[6:56] Speaker 3: This is from Arturoche's piece recently, talking about how Arteta
[7:00] Speaker 3: has evolved through time.
[7:02] Speaker 1: We should have Kaya read the quote.
[7:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do that.
[7:04] Speaker 1: Because Arteta is closest to Kaya.
[7:07] Speaker 2: That's true.
[7:07] Speaker 1: And then you can.
[7:08] Speaker 2: Not in terms of height. I think I'm closer to
[7:10] Speaker 2: Arteta in height than Kaya.
[7:11] Speaker 1: What did he say, Kaya?
[7:12] Speaker 2: He said... I said... The game plan, the macro structure,
[7:16] Speaker 2: how we pass the ball or position ourselves no longer matters. Today,
[7:20] Speaker 2: you depend on that one player who can make a
[7:22] Speaker 2: game defining action. That's the difference. like in tennis, where
[7:26] Speaker 2: they play five sets for five hours, but it's decided
[7:29] Speaker 2: by three games. It's easy to read stuff out on
[7:32] Speaker 2: a page, I think. I thought that was very easy.
[7:35] Speaker 2: That was good, yeah.
[7:35] Speaker 1: You're giving Ronald Kerman a run for his money.
[7:38] Speaker 2: But what I love about this quote is that... What
[7:39] Speaker 2: does it mean, John?
[7:40] Speaker 3: Yeah, so he starts off by saying, you know, the
[7:42] Speaker 3: plan that used to be so important for a manager
[7:45] Speaker 3: like Guardiola, which is... How do we dominate using our
[7:48] Speaker 3: in and out of possession structures? When we have the ball,
[7:51] Speaker 3: we keep the ball. We generate chances. When we lose
[7:53] Speaker 3: the ball, we use our structure to win it back.
[7:55] Speaker 3: Everyone is doing that sort of stuff now, I think,
[7:58] Speaker 3: to a very high level. And so what you're ending
[8:00] Speaker 3: up with a lot of the time is stalemates, like
[8:02] Speaker 3: both teams kind of cancelling each other out. So what
[8:05] Speaker 3: is making the difference is those few games in five sets,
[8:08] Speaker 3: as he talks about tennis later on, where if you
[8:11] Speaker 3: manage to go ahead in a game, you can maybe
[8:13] Speaker 3: hold on and... and use the game conditions in order
[8:17] Speaker 3: to help yourself win. So maybe Manchester United versus Hull,
[8:19] Speaker 3: Hull score from a set piece and then that allows
[8:21] Speaker 3: them to just sit a bit deeper and absorb pressure,
[8:24] Speaker 3: get up the pitch, score another goal from a set piece.
[8:27] Speaker 3: Those kind of things are winning your sort of edge
[8:30] Speaker 3: case games in a set of tennis where actually you
[8:34] Speaker 3: hold the service game, hold the service game, hold the
[8:36] Speaker 3: service game and it's just that one game in the
[8:38] Speaker 3: set that changes the outcome.
[8:40] Speaker 1: With these also, it's worth saying before we go on
[8:41] Speaker 1: to talk about Chelsea specifically, that the changes that you're
[8:44] Speaker 1: talking about here are resulting in new trends in the
[8:48] Speaker 1: league that maybe we're starting to see already or that
[8:50] Speaker 1: we anticipated to see. So I heard Liam Tharm on
[8:52] Speaker 1: an episode of the Athletic FC podcast the other day.
[8:55] Speaker 1: He was asked, does he have any predictions for, you know,
[8:58] Speaker 1: trends of the upcoming season? And his was that we
[9:01] Speaker 1: might see more same sided wingers. So wingers playing on
[9:04] Speaker 1: the left that are left footed. In fact, we saw
[9:06] Speaker 1: Cody Gakpo playing on the right for Liverpool, potentially for
[9:09] Speaker 1: the last time. Let's see what happens before deadline day.
[9:12] Speaker 1: And he created maybe Liverpool's two best chances in that
[9:15] Speaker 1: game by crossing it in with his right foot, which
[9:18] Speaker 1: is something I feel like we haven't really seen for
[9:20] Speaker 1: 15 years. There's a few of these sorts of changes
[9:23] Speaker 1: that might result as a result of Pep Guardiola's style
[9:28] Speaker 1: of domination sort of falling by the wayside.
[9:30] Speaker 3: I think direct play is just going to become so
[9:31] Speaker 3: much more important. So one of the things I've been
[9:33] Speaker 3: talking about endlessly in the last couple of game weeks
[9:36] Speaker 3: in the Premier League is how many teams are sort
[9:38] Speaker 3: of trying to exploit space in behind, or at least
[9:41] Speaker 3: they're creating the conditions to do that. So Ryan Mason
[9:44] Speaker 3: on Sky Sports yesterday made a big point of of
[9:46] Speaker 3: how Newcastle were finding a way of getting Sandro Tonali
[9:51] Speaker 3: isolated against Anthony Alanga, I think it was. And then
[9:54] Speaker 3: in that sort of situation, you just want to play
[9:56] Speaker 3: the ball into the channel because you know that Alanga
[9:59] Speaker 3: with his pace, is going to be able to win
[10:01] Speaker 3: that foot race and then generate chances in that way.
[10:04] Speaker 3: And we saw also the, I guess, a couple of
[10:07] Speaker 3: Newcastle's best chances coming from a dead itch. They're right
[10:10] Speaker 3: back running into that space and then playing the ball
[10:12] Speaker 3: back across as well. What's been so interesting to me
[10:14] Speaker 3: is that, you know, there's teams who are not doing
[10:16] Speaker 3: it as well in the first half as they are
[10:18] Speaker 3: in the second half, when clearly the coaches are coming
[10:21] Speaker 3: out on being like, we're creating these great conditions. You've
[10:23] Speaker 3: just got to go direct in some of these scenarios,
[10:25] Speaker 3: because again, we're so used to this idea that we
[10:28] Speaker 3: need to keep possession at all costs, because if we
[10:30] Speaker 3: don't do that, we aren't able to dominate games. Actually
[10:33] Speaker 3: teams are finding ways of just going more direct and
[10:35] Speaker 3: it causing more problems in for opponents than when they
[10:37] Speaker 3: keep the ball for long periods.
[10:39] Speaker 1: Personally, I'm kind of happy about it because so far
[10:42] Speaker 1: it seems to have resulted in a couple of games
[10:44] Speaker 1: that have had many goals. I mean, Brighton have now
[10:46] Speaker 1: been involved in two themselves. So maybe it will result
[10:50] Speaker 1: in a higher scoring Premier League. We'll have to wait
[10:52] Speaker 1: and see. Let's apply this specifically to Chelsea, though. If
[10:56] Speaker 1: that's the new tactical era that we're stepping into, one
[10:59] Speaker 1: which maybe favours... tactical diversity, there's different approaches you can
[11:04] Speaker 1: take to the game to win as opposed to just
[11:06] Speaker 1: having to do it the way that Pep Guardiola does
[11:08] Speaker 1: with high possession. Then what specifically do we see from
[11:12] Speaker 1: Chelsea today that fits within that new context?
[11:16] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a weird game to watch this Chelsea-Brighton
[11:20] Speaker 2: game or to give it its full title, the Danny Welbeck,
[11:24] Speaker 2: Marco Correa, Moises Caicedo, Valentin Barco, Gerard Pedro, Facundo Buonannotte,
[11:30] Speaker 2: Levi Colwell, Billy Gilmore, Tarek Lamptey, Robert Sanchez, Graham Potter,
[11:34] Speaker 2: Wayne Bridge and Steve Sidwell-Darby. What about Bruno Salto? Bruno Salto, yeah,
[11:38] Speaker 2: Paul Wynn-Stanley. We could keep going. I'm sure there'll be
[11:41] Speaker 2: more that people can mention. But yeah, it was a
[11:43] Speaker 2: weird one because I felt Chelsea, obviously we're talking a
[11:46] Speaker 2: lot about how they had low possession, but it didn't
[11:48] Speaker 2: really feel like a typical game where we've seen loads
[11:51] Speaker 2: of games where... Man City games for example where they've
[11:54] Speaker 2: had 70 80 percent of the ball and the opposition
[11:56] Speaker 2: has had 20 and it's felt like they've never got
[11:58] Speaker 2: out and they've just been camped in their own box
[11:59] Speaker 2: for the entire match this wasn't that this wasn't that
[12:02] Speaker 2: at all because it felt like we were watching in
[12:04] Speaker 2: the office with some colleagues and they kept saying that
[12:06] Speaker 2: every time they looked up at the TV it felt
[12:08] Speaker 2: like Chelsea were coming forward because they adapted to the
[12:11] Speaker 2: game and Jabby Alonso quite interestingly was sort of asked
[12:13] Speaker 2: about it after the game and he said I don't
[12:15] Speaker 2: tell the team we need 60 or 20 percent possession
[12:18] Speaker 2: that's not the approach it's about preparing well and being
[12:21] Speaker 2: able to adapt and being competitive in different moments of
[12:23] Speaker 2: the game so finding solutions on the pitch to figure
[12:27] Speaker 2: out what works and I think Chelsea did that really
[12:29] Speaker 2: well where they realized that Brighton weren't really causing them
[12:32] Speaker 2: too many problems early doors with their holding loads of
[12:35] Speaker 2: possession they realized they didn't need the ball to win
[12:37] Speaker 2: the game there will be games probably across the course
[12:39] Speaker 2: of the season where Chelsea do need the ball a
[12:40] Speaker 2: bit more to win the game it's interesting because this
[12:44] Speaker 2: is kind of it felt like a blessing and a
[12:46] Speaker 2: curse for Chelsea within the same game because it's what
[12:48] Speaker 2: allowed them to race into a three goal lead within
[12:50] Speaker 2: the first half an hour of the match. But then
[12:53] Speaker 2: the reason the game became as hectic as it did
[12:55] Speaker 2: as we went on is because they didn't have control
[12:58] Speaker 2: of the ball. So they surrendered possession, which was great
[13:00] Speaker 2: for them, but also surrendering possession was terrible for them.
[13:02] Speaker 2: So it's going to be that yin and yang, that
[13:04] Speaker 2: balance between the two. And you mentioned my closeness to
[13:07] Speaker 2: Mikel Arteta there. And it's not because I follow him
[13:10] Speaker 2: around a lot, although I just moved house recently and
[13:14] Speaker 2: a friend of mine said that I live near a
[13:16] Speaker 2: cafe well, just above a cafe. And a friend of
[13:18] Speaker 2: mine spotted Mikel Arteta in that cafe not that long ago.
[13:21] Speaker 2: So that's quite exciting.
[13:22] Speaker 1: That's why he's gone.
[13:23] Speaker 2: Yeah. It's nothing to do with that. I promise, Mikel,
[13:26] Speaker 2: if you're planning on going back to that cafe. But
[13:29] Speaker 2: something he said, so in my old job, I used
[13:31] Speaker 2: to cover Arsenal and I used to go to his
[13:32] Speaker 2: press conferences and I remember a few years ago, there's
[13:35] Speaker 2: a press conference that sticks with me, and Arsenal beat
[13:37] Speaker 2: Watford 3-2. And they were 3-1 up in the game,
[13:41] Speaker 2: and they had about half an hour to go, and
[13:42] Speaker 2: they should have controlled it, and they were obviously the
[13:44] Speaker 2: way better team. But they didn't, and the game... Obviously, yeah.
[13:47] Speaker 2: And the game becomes... I thought I set that in.
[13:49] Speaker 2: The game became a lot more hectic, and Arteta said
[13:52] Speaker 2: in his post-match, when that happens, we need to control
[13:55] Speaker 2: the game with 100,000 passes. We need to pass them
[13:57] Speaker 2: into submission, essentially, and keep the ball so that they
[13:59] Speaker 2: can't do anything. what he's saying here and the quote
[14:02] Speaker 2: that I read out earlier as Mikel Arteta suggested that
[14:05] Speaker 2: has gone and Chelsea today suggests that is going or
[14:08] Speaker 2: gone even. And it's really interesting because it makes, as
[14:11] Speaker 2: you said, the game's a lot more hectic. It means
[14:13] Speaker 2: that there's no real sustained periods of possession. The game's
[14:16] Speaker 2: a lot more unpredictable and Bryson came back into it today.
[14:19] Speaker 2: And if they'd taken a few of their chances in
[14:20] Speaker 2: the first half, it could easily have been four all
[14:22] Speaker 2: or five, four. But then if Chelsea had taken some
[14:24] Speaker 2: more of their counterattacking chances, it could have been even more.
[14:26] Speaker 2: So it makes the game so much more exciting. They're
[14:29] Speaker 2: a lot more stretched. They're a lot more fun because
[14:32] Speaker 2: I think last season a lot of us felt maybe
[14:34] Speaker 2: they got a bit stale at times, whereas this season,
[14:36] Speaker 2: the early weeks at least, have been a lot more entertaining,
[14:39] Speaker 2: I think. So, yeah, it's interesting. They're different. They're not
[14:42] Speaker 2: the typical sort of you look at these stats and
[14:44] Speaker 2: you think the game was a certain way. There's so
[14:46] Speaker 2: much more to analyse from the first few weeks of
[14:49] Speaker 2: the Premier League, at least so far.
[14:50] Speaker 1: OK, let's have a quick break. And when we come back,
[14:52] Speaker 1: we will continue talking. Okay, there we are. We're back
[14:56] Speaker 1: from that break. I think it's very interesting what Kai
[14:59] Speaker 1: was saying there. The key point for me, John, is
[15:01] Speaker 1: this idea of control. And there have been various different
[15:04] Speaker 1: approaches to football over the years. I would say in
[15:08] Speaker 1: the era that we've just emerged from, the idea of
[15:11] Speaker 1: control is very synonymous with having the ball. Everyone believes
[15:15] Speaker 1: that in order to control a game, you have to
[15:16] Speaker 1: have the ball. There are outliers to that. There are
[15:19] Speaker 1: coaches like Jose Mourinho, for example, who's managed teams and said,
[15:22] Speaker 1: we can control the game without the ball. Jurgen Klopp,
[15:25] Speaker 1: to a certain extent, with his gegenpressing, has done the
[15:27] Speaker 1: same thing. So it's not a completely new concept to us.
[15:31] Speaker 1: But the flip side of the positive side of the coin...
[15:35] Speaker 1: as you might imagine, is the negative side of it.
[15:38] Speaker 1: Kaya just referred to it there. Perhaps the same thing
[15:40] Speaker 1: that allowed Chelsea all of this space in behind a
[15:43] Speaker 1: Brighton that were controlling the ball in order to score
[15:46] Speaker 1: three goals in 30 minutes was arguably the same thing
[15:49] Speaker 1: that then, you know, enabled Brighton to score three goals
[15:53] Speaker 1: in the very same game and create this... sort of,
[15:56] Speaker 1: you know, bizarre fixture that was quite difficult to analyse overall.
[15:59] Speaker 1: I guess this is just the downside of that style
[16:02] Speaker 1: of play, right? Maybe Chelsea need to learn to control
[16:05] Speaker 1: the game better without the ball.
[16:07] Speaker 3: Yeah, I like to describe this phenomenon as football being
[16:10] Speaker 3: a relative game, right? Which means that you're constantly in
[16:13] Speaker 3: one of two states right with you know if you
[16:16] Speaker 3: are outlier instances but you're either in possession of the
[16:18] Speaker 3: ball or you're out of possession of the ball and
[16:20] Speaker 3: if you're out of possession of the ball then the
[16:22] Speaker 3: opponent are necessarily in possession of the ball and and
[16:25] Speaker 3: so you have to sort of try and balance off
[16:27] Speaker 3: the pros and cons of those two approaches so As
[16:30] Speaker 3: Kaya said, for a team like Chelsea, where they've got
[16:32] Speaker 3: players who are going to be very good in transition moments, which,
[16:35] Speaker 3: you know, largely is true for all elite sides, right?
[16:37] Speaker 3: Like if you've got elite players, they're going to be
[16:39] Speaker 3: better if they've got space to transition into.
[16:42] Speaker 2: That's great.
[16:43] Speaker 3: But the problem is, is that for the most part,
[16:45] Speaker 3: if you are allowing the opponent to open out that space,
[16:48] Speaker 3: you're doing it by allowing them to have the ball, right?
[16:50] Speaker 3: So you're giving them the initiative with the ball. And
[16:53] Speaker 3: you then have to be very good defensively in order
[16:55] Speaker 3: to stop them from creating chances. And for the most part,
[16:58] Speaker 3: they will have more of the ball, therefore more chances.
[17:00] Speaker 3: Those chances may be lower than the ones that you create,
[17:02] Speaker 3: but you've got to get that balance right between, you know,
[17:05] Speaker 3: feeling as though you're getting the good attempts to counterattack
[17:09] Speaker 3: when they're arriving. And I think, you know, Chelsea would
[17:11] Speaker 3: argue today, we did that, right? If you look at
[17:13] Speaker 3: the XG run, they'll say, we got the higher chance quality.
[17:18] Speaker 3: So we're happy to live in that balance. I mean,
[17:20] Speaker 3: the game did end up being 4-3, so it's maybe
[17:22] Speaker 3: a bit close for comfort.
[17:24] Speaker 1: But João Pedro could have scored another goal, maybe two.
[17:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
[17:27] Speaker 3: And then obviously the flip side of that is that
[17:28] Speaker 3: if you possess the ball, then, and again, you can
[17:31] Speaker 3: make the argument that Brighton were on the negative side
[17:35] Speaker 3: in this sense, because if you're trying to break down
[17:37] Speaker 3: a bit of a lower block, you are leaving a
[17:39] Speaker 3: lot of space in behind you. It's hard to break
[17:41] Speaker 3: down the block. And if you lose the ball, which
[17:42] Speaker 3: they did on a few occasions, then Against a team
[17:45] Speaker 3: like Chelsea, they are going to find ways of causing
[17:47] Speaker 3: you problems there as well. So there's pros and cons
[17:50] Speaker 3: to both approaches. And I think what's so interesting about
[17:54] Speaker 3: this game is that, as we're saying, with a team
[17:57] Speaker 3: like Chelsea, they usually err on the side of we'll
[18:00] Speaker 3: possess the ball too much and make it harder for
[18:02] Speaker 3: ourselves in that way, make it harder to break down
[18:04] Speaker 3: the opponent and make it harder for us to defend
[18:07] Speaker 3: those transitions. And I guess the question that I'm interested
[18:10] Speaker 3: for us to talk about is, Here is how much
[18:12] Speaker 3: of that is is a conscious decision by shabby Alonso
[18:16] Speaker 3: on the basis of the players that he has available
[18:18] Speaker 3: to him Yeah, so on the one hand we're going
[18:20] Speaker 3: to talk about that front three of Whatever they call
[18:23] Speaker 3: it now JP Morgan as well Pedro Cole Palmer and
[18:27] Speaker 3: and JP Morgan JP Morgan. That's right Morgan Morgan Rogers
[18:31] Speaker 3: Morgan Morgan Rogers and chase. Yeah But then we can
[18:36] Speaker 3: talk about the back line as well, because I think
[18:38] Speaker 3: at times we've seen in the last few seasons, Chelsea
[18:41] Speaker 3: have really struggled to try and play in that more
[18:42] Speaker 3: elite way where they possess the ball high up the
[18:44] Speaker 3: pitch because they are getting caught out in transition. They
[18:46] Speaker 3: rely very heavily on Moises Caicedo, who came on today
[18:49] Speaker 3: late and then went straight off. So those are the
[18:52] Speaker 3: sorts of things that determine what your tactical approach should be.
[18:55] Speaker 3: the players at your disposal, because if you were going
[18:57] Speaker 3: to play, you know, high possession football, high up the
[19:00] Speaker 3: pitch and you're playing. So in the, in the game
[19:02] Speaker 3: against Fulham, they had, who did they have in midfield
[19:05] Speaker 3: in that game? Rhys James and Romeo Lavia. And then
[19:08] Speaker 3: in this game, they had Romeo Lavia and Mal Augusto.
[19:11] Speaker 3: Like neither of those two, those sets of players are,
[19:14] Speaker 3: Large space players.
[19:15] Speaker 1: It's worth saying also in the live chat, Aditya already
[19:18] Speaker 1: has said Chelsea were playing with a midfield of Lavia
[19:21] Speaker 1: and Gusto. This low possession might not be how they
[19:23] Speaker 1: play long term.
[19:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
[19:24] Speaker 3: And that's where I want this discussion to end up.
[19:27] Speaker 3: But I do think it's kind of interesting to talk
[19:29] Speaker 3: about what this version of Chelsea looks like because we've
[19:32] Speaker 3: seen it before.
[19:33] Speaker 2: We've seen it under.
[19:34] Speaker 3: Mauricio Pochettino we've seen it under Maresca as well so
[19:37] Speaker 3: with Pochettino he developed that direct style of play and
[19:41] Speaker 3: Cole Palmer had his best season for example under Mauricio
[19:44] Speaker 3: Pochettino at Chelsea where that was the season everyone was
[19:46] Speaker 3: excited about he then was replaced Pochettino by Maresca Maresca
[19:51] Speaker 3: played in that more direct style initially but then was
[19:54] Speaker 3: too worried I think about the problems that were created
[19:57] Speaker 3: going in the opposite direction so he started trying to
[20:00] Speaker 3: implement more of a possession control model And as a result,
[20:04] Speaker 3: Cole Palmer, everyone started being very negative about him because
[20:07] Speaker 3: it felt as though he wasn't performing to the same level.
[20:10] Speaker 3: I would suggest that that's because Cole Palmer is just
[20:12] Speaker 3: going to look much better against, you know, in transition
[20:16] Speaker 3: attacking moments. Again, I think it's very interesting that everyone
[20:20] Speaker 3: is super excited about Cole Palmer this season. And it's
[20:23] Speaker 3: been a season where they've played essentially low block and
[20:25] Speaker 3: counter football, which really suits his game style as well.
[20:28] Speaker 1: He's already scored and assisted in the first game. He
[20:31] Speaker 1: scored today. Maybe he assisted as well. I'm not sure.
[20:33] Speaker 1: They scored so many goals it's hard to know. But
[20:35] Speaker 1: it seems to be going well so far.
[20:36] Speaker 2: Right.
[20:37] Speaker 3: And it's very easy for us to then say... Well, obviously,
[20:41] Speaker 3: Alonso isn't going to want to play like this long term.
[20:43] Speaker 3: But you've got to get that balance right between how
[20:45] Speaker 3: do we get the most out of someone like Cole Palmer,
[20:48] Speaker 3: as well as how do we make it easier for
[20:50] Speaker 3: the defence to deal with the conditions that we create
[20:53] Speaker 3: for them as well.
[20:53] Speaker 1: Well, I mean, should we start with the defence then?
[20:56] Speaker 1: Because I think that you're saying like really what we
[20:59] Speaker 1: want to know here is how much is the decision
[21:01] Speaker 1: to play in this way, which you have to say
[21:03] Speaker 1: is purposeful, right? There's no way that Chelsea have their
[21:05] Speaker 1: lowest possession at Stamford Bridge for 15 years and it's
[21:08] Speaker 1: not deliberately dictated by... Obviously, I understand that there's a
[21:12] Speaker 1: certain extent to which the players are able to make
[21:14] Speaker 1: decisions on the pitch, but based on how Brighton actually
[21:20] Speaker 1: looked quite vulnerable, bizarrely, in their 4-0 victory over Villa
[21:23] Speaker 1: in the first weekend, it feels like it was a...
[21:26] Speaker 1: and obviously a deliberate ploy on the part of.
[21:28] Speaker 2: Well, we noticed in the first half that when Brighton
[21:31] Speaker 2: were just building up from the back that Chelsea didn't
[21:32] Speaker 2: even try and engage them in their opposition half, right?
[21:34] Speaker 2: They just said, here you go, come up to halfway
[21:37] Speaker 2: and then we'll figure it out from there.
[21:39] Speaker 1: Into their own half, right?
[21:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[21:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's very purposeful. Okay, so going backwards then,
[21:43] Speaker 1: in the case of defending deeper, that presumably is about
[21:48] Speaker 1: the fact that they've had struggles in defensive transition.
[21:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. In terms of.
[21:53] Speaker 3: So when you're wanting to do the Guardiola thing... of
[21:56] Speaker 3: possessing the ball high up the pitch, territorial advantage. Um,
[22:00] Speaker 3: and the idea behind that is that if you lose
[22:02] Speaker 3: the ball, you're a long way away from the goal. Um,
[22:05] Speaker 3: So it should be harder for the opponent to actually
[22:08] Speaker 3: get to your goal.
[22:08] Speaker 1: In theory, although the Premier League isn't really showing it.
[22:11] Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and that's part of the reason why I
[22:12] Speaker 3: think the Pep consensus has collapsed slightly. But what you
[22:16] Speaker 3: also have at your disposal is the concept of rest defence,
[22:18] Speaker 3: which is this idea that actually you can structure your
[22:22] Speaker 3: players who aren't attacking in such a way when you
[22:24] Speaker 3: have the ball, that if you do lose it, one,
[22:26] Speaker 3: they're well positioned to counter-press, to try and win the
[22:29] Speaker 3: ball back, and two, prevent a counter-attack from appearing but
[22:32] Speaker 3: even if that does happen you're then well positioned to
[22:35] Speaker 3: defend the players who are going to cause you problems
[22:37] Speaker 3: there and I think that was the area under Maresca
[22:39] Speaker 3: that they really struggled with Chelsea because they just didn't
[22:42] Speaker 3: have many players who were particularly good in those so
[22:45] Speaker 3: that their structures would always be really good but there
[22:48] Speaker 3: were certain players who just weren't very good at defending
[22:51] Speaker 3: those large spaces often one v one where you have
[22:54] Speaker 3: an opponent you have to deal with And so as
[22:56] Speaker 3: a result, there were times, I remember there was a
[22:59] Speaker 3: goal that Fulham scored at the beginning of last season
[23:01] Speaker 3: that ended up getting disallowed from Josh King. But there
[23:03] Speaker 3: was plenty of examples of certain players making poor decisions.
[23:08] Speaker 3: And then you could see the players around them. So
[23:10] Speaker 3: Moises Caicedo clearly feels like he has a lot of
[23:12] Speaker 3: responsibility to sort out problems here. because he's quite good
[23:15] Speaker 3: in those moments. So he's then covering for someone like
[23:18] Speaker 3: Tosin Adarabioyo, or you'd have Trevor Chalaba just jumping into
[23:22] Speaker 3: challenges because he knew if he didn't have it, it
[23:23] Speaker 3: was going to be Badia Shield who'd be doing the
[23:25] Speaker 3: covering as well. And I think that's something that Alonso
[23:29] Speaker 3: will have at the back of his mind, which is,
[23:30] Speaker 3: you know, we've not, yes, they've got Levi Caldwell back,
[23:33] Speaker 3: but they're still playing with a lot of the same players.
[23:36] Speaker 3: They've got Josh Achimpong as well, who I think is
[23:39] Speaker 3: a brilliant player as well. But I think he's just
[23:41] Speaker 3: got that in the back of his mind. we don't
[23:43] Speaker 3: want to start putting the players under that amount of
[23:44] Speaker 3: pressure this early in my tenure because those situations have
[23:48] Speaker 3: like a real quality of just looking very clown car
[23:50] Speaker 3: if you get them wrong. So by avoiding having high possession,
[23:54] Speaker 3: you're avoiding putting those players under that kind of pressure
[23:56] Speaker 3: and you're saying, okay, we'll do like block defending. There's
[23:59] Speaker 3: much less pressure on you because your teammates are much
[24:02] Speaker 3: closer to you and you're... you're sort of forcing the
[24:04] Speaker 3: opponent to have to move the ball around you more
[24:06] Speaker 3: than hit the space run and make sure you don't
[24:09] Speaker 3: make any mistakes.
[24:09] Speaker 1: Have you noticed John started saying clown car?
[24:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm enjoying it. What is it about us two
[24:15] Speaker 2: that makes you think about clown cars?
[24:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, what is it? What are you talking about?
[24:18] Speaker 2: I just mean, you know, when funny things happen. No,
[24:20] Speaker 2: I know what a clown car is.
[24:21] Speaker 3: You watched the Man United-Ipswich game.
[24:22] Speaker 2: You saw a few of those.
[24:25] Speaker 1: I know what it means. I'm just wondering where you've
[24:27] Speaker 1: picked it up. It's like, you know, sometimes I think
[24:29] Speaker 1: of you as sort of like a teenage son. You know,
[24:31] Speaker 1: you come home and one day after school, he just
[24:34] Speaker 1: started saying clown car.
[24:35] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[24:35] Speaker 1: I don't know. Is this what all the kids are
[24:37] Speaker 1: saying at school? Is this just something that you you've
[24:40] Speaker 1: read in a book from 60 years ago and you've
[24:42] Speaker 1: just where did you pick this up?
[24:43] Speaker 2: I don't know. That's a good question. Was it from
[24:45] Speaker 2: the Scorsese film you watched last night? That's right, yeah.
[24:47] Speaker 2: The silence that you watched last night.
[24:49] Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a few clown car moments in that one,
[24:51] Speaker 3: let me tell you. But I don't know. When you
[24:54] Speaker 3: talk about tactics a lot, I always just have go-to concepts,
[24:57] Speaker 3: which is sort of easy to throw in there. Maybe
[24:59] Speaker 3: I'm lazy in that respect.
[25:00] Speaker 1: No, no.
[25:01] Speaker 2: I'm sorry for offending you both.
[25:02] Speaker 1: You haven't offended us at all. I just like that.
[25:04] Speaker 1: You're a little magpie for tactics. John's got more Gen Z.
[25:09] Speaker 2: I don't think Clown Car I don't think Clown Car
[25:12] Speaker 2: is a Gen Z I think it's like my my
[25:14] Speaker 2: Dar's it's Boomer Keystone Cops kind of that kind of
[25:18] Speaker 2: similar lineage I wasn't sure.
[25:20] Speaker 1: If it had been taken up again you know like
[25:22] Speaker 1: how in the 90s people started saying wicked to mean good.
[25:24] Speaker 3: I'm a trendsetter Joe that's all I can say all
[25:27] Speaker 3: the kids will be saying Clown Car moment soon remember
[25:29] Speaker 3: Bozo moments i did that for a.
[25:31] Speaker 1: While yeah you're still saying bozo moment.
[25:33] Speaker 3: A bit yeah it's clown but i feel i don't
[25:35] Speaker 3: know i feel yeah i feel bad about saying bozo
[25:37] Speaker 3: moments because usually like an individual's made a mistake and
[25:39] Speaker 3: i you know i'm not really that interested in can.
[25:41] Speaker 2: You predict the next trend in terms of those negative
[25:43] Speaker 2: terminologies i'll think what's coming background well.
[25:47] Speaker 1: I guess you know he's he's taking individual elements of
[25:49] Speaker 1: a circus which we have you know is is a
[25:52] Speaker 1: football cliche true it's a circus though.
[25:54] Speaker 2: Yeah so uh juggling I don't think juggling has negative connotations.
[25:59] Speaker 1: Omar Little in the chat. Yes, I also noticed John
[26:01] Speaker 1: saying clown car last week.
[26:03] Speaker 2: Great, Omar Little.
[26:05] Speaker 1: Let's get in his head, guys. We're in his head. OK,
[26:07] Speaker 1: there we go. So it is possible, as we say,
[26:09] Speaker 1: that Xabi Alonso is doing this deliberately as a result
[26:11] Speaker 1: of his defensive personnel struggling in defensive transition. Kaya, at
[26:15] Speaker 1: the other end of the field, though, I mean, it's
[26:17] Speaker 1: much more obvious that it's working really well for that team.
[26:21] Speaker 1: triumvirate of JP Morgan.
[26:23] Speaker 2: Yeah. JP Morgan don't want to be breaking down low blocks.
[26:26] Speaker 2: They want to be having fun.
[26:27] Speaker 1: They want to get bailed out by the US government.
[26:30] Speaker 2: Exactly.
[26:32] Speaker 1: I'm sure they did get bailed out. I don't know
[26:33] Speaker 1: if they did.
[26:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't.
[26:34] Speaker 1: They did. Did they?
[26:35] Speaker 2: I can't remember. Are they a US bank?
[26:37] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
[26:38] Speaker 2: The big short about five times. I still don't quite
[26:40] Speaker 2: understand what happened in that film. I'll do some research.
[26:42] Speaker 1: I think Ryan Gosling was in it.
[26:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. He was. He was. So let's say
[26:47] Speaker 2: Cole Palmer is Ryan Gosling. Yeah. Jao Pedro is Steve Carell. Yeah.
[26:52] Speaker 1: And then name one more person.
[26:54] Speaker 2: From that film? Yeah, Christian Bale can be Morgan Rogers. Yeah,
[26:57] Speaker 2: that works.
[26:58] Speaker 1: There we go. I think Cole Palmer's clearly the Christian
[27:00] Speaker 1: Bale character.
[27:00] Speaker 2: That's true. He sees things that other people don't. Exactly.
[27:02] Speaker 2: He's ahead of the trend. He saw Clown Car before
[27:05] Speaker 2: it was cool.
[27:05] Speaker 3: JP Morgan received a $ 25 billion government bailout in October.
[27:09] Speaker 2: There you go. That's Javier Alonso's tactics in this metaphor.
[27:11] Speaker 1: Do you know what? As far as legal statements go,
[27:13] Speaker 1: it's pretty safe to say that a big bank has
[27:15] Speaker 1: been bailed out by the government at some point, isn't it?
[27:17] Speaker 1: At some point. Anyway, as we discovered on last Thursday's podcast...
[27:21] Speaker 1: We are the podcast that supports the big banks. There
[27:24] Speaker 1: you go.
[27:24] Speaker 2: That's true.
[27:25] Speaker 1: Apparently that's the case. Okay.
[27:26] Speaker 2: What were we saying? Something about them wanting to go
[27:28] Speaker 2: forward and have fun.
[27:29] Speaker 1: Steve Hankey is messaging me to say, he's not even here.
[27:31] Speaker 1: He's messaged me to say, stop talking about big banks.
[27:34] Speaker 2: Okay.
[27:35] Speaker 3: Actually, it may be only $ 12 billion bailout according.
[27:38] Speaker 2: To the New York Times.
[27:39] Speaker 1: Very important to get that right. Sorry.
[27:41] Speaker 2: Not my area of expertise. It's all a bit clown
[27:43] Speaker 2: car over. Sorry. Now, what are we talking about? Going
[27:46] Speaker 2: forward is fun. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You don't want to
[27:49] Speaker 2: be faced up against low blocks where everything is slow
[27:53] Speaker 2: and plodding and deliberate. And who better to tell us
[27:56] Speaker 2: about how miserable that is? Let me tell you all
[27:57] Speaker 2: about it. Sometimes it's not that fun. Sometimes it's fun
[27:59] Speaker 2: to just let rip and go forward. And yeah. do
[28:03] Speaker 2: it quickly and be off the cuff and get a
[28:05] Speaker 2: corner and score from the corner. Exactly. Well, just to
[28:08] Speaker 2: add to what you were saying before, actually about the,
[28:10] Speaker 2: the Brighton things, I'll go, I'll go back to my
[28:12] Speaker 2: offensive point, but in my, my defensive point, Chelsea will
[28:16] Speaker 2: feel that they're sitting back and defending a bit deeper
[28:19] Speaker 2: is actually kind of justified in the sense that Brighton's
[28:22] Speaker 2: three goals basically came from set pieces. Like the first
[28:24] Speaker 2: goal is a quick throw. Second goal is a corner,
[28:28] Speaker 2: second phase. And the third goal is a long throw
[28:30] Speaker 2: in the last minute of the game. So, I think
[28:32] Speaker 2: in terms of cutting out those defensive mistakes and the
[28:35] Speaker 2: clown car defending that Chelsea were bad at last season,
[28:38] Speaker 2: it's probably not a bad tactic to get the best
[28:40] Speaker 2: out of that part of the squad. And then allowing
[28:42] Speaker 2: the front part of the squad to go back to
[28:44] Speaker 2: the offensive bit, the extra space and the time to
[28:49] Speaker 2: run into is the best way, I think, to get
[28:51] Speaker 2: the best out of those players. Like John was saying,
[28:53] Speaker 2: Cole Palmer's best season at Chelsea still was his first
[28:56] Speaker 2: season under Mauricio Pochettino when they were a lot more
[28:58] Speaker 2: transitional players. And they're probably a lot more fun. I
[29:00] Speaker 2: think like Chelsea fans are singing Jabby Alonso's name today
[29:02] Speaker 2: in his first game in charge. I don't think they
[29:04] Speaker 2: ever did that with Enzo Maresca because the football was,
[29:07] Speaker 2: it was effective, but it was a little bit boring
[29:09] Speaker 2: a lot of the time. Whereas this is a lot
[29:11] Speaker 2: more fun, a lot more transitional, a lot more off
[29:13] Speaker 2: the cuff. And you're going to see them concede stupid goals,
[29:15] Speaker 2: but you're going to see them score a lot of
[29:16] Speaker 2: fun goals as well. And I think that's kind of
[29:19] Speaker 2: what fans want to see. Like if you're going to,
[29:20] Speaker 2: Be in the position where Chelsea are on the table.
[29:22] Speaker 2: You might as well just have a bit of fun
[29:24] Speaker 2: doing it. Especially when you have those players, too. I
[29:26] Speaker 2: think I understand why team like coaches want to have control,
[29:31] Speaker 2: because I think over a long period that works itself out.
[29:35] Speaker 1: Right.
[29:36] Speaker 3: Guardiola got 70% win ratio pretty much throughout his whole
[29:39] Speaker 3: career until towards the end. That's enough to win you
[29:42] Speaker 3: the league pretty much in any top European league. And
[29:47] Speaker 3: then you sort of take your chances in knockout tournaments.
[29:50] Speaker 3: I guess the problem is that when you get to
[29:52] Speaker 3: a point where everyone is so stacked with talent and
[29:54] Speaker 3: you feel as though that talent is being squeezed into
[29:58] Speaker 3: a more control approach, then there's always that frustration of like, well,
[30:02] Speaker 3: why can't we get Cole Palmer just running at opponents?
[30:06] Speaker 3: And it's not as simple as that, but I think
[30:07] Speaker 3: for fans, like the 90 minutes is largely what matters.
[30:11] Speaker 3: And it's very easy for us to come out of
[30:14] Speaker 3: a game and be like, yeah, that's how we should
[30:16] Speaker 3: do it all the time. And it's hard for you
[30:18] Speaker 3: to say, okay, well, what about over a 10 game
[30:20] Speaker 3: period where if you play with control, you're going to
[30:22] Speaker 3: win seven of your games and then maybe drop points
[30:24] Speaker 3: in the others.
[30:25] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[30:25] Speaker 3: That's what happened with Maresca, right? He decided that actually
[30:30] Speaker 3: playing direct was starting to harm them too much going
[30:32] Speaker 3: in the other direction. So it will be interesting to
[30:34] Speaker 3: see how that works itself out in the wash.
[30:37] Speaker 1: I think on that basis as well, the thing that's
[30:39] Speaker 1: the most interesting to me about Chelsea right now is
[30:43] Speaker 1: the same as the thing that's interesting to me about Newcastle,
[30:46] Speaker 1: who I think have also started the league season really well.
[30:49] Speaker 1: It's been fascinating to watch Matthias Jeisler's team so far Uh,
[30:53] Speaker 1: but they've, they've performed very well against Spurs firstly, uh, well, secondly,
[30:58] Speaker 1: I guess, away from home and against, uh, Liverpool.
[31:00] Speaker 2: Where they had 40% possession.
[31:02] Speaker 1: Where they had 40% possession. And they're okay. You say
[31:04] Speaker 1: what you want about Spurs being an elite team that
[31:06] Speaker 1: nearly got relegated, but when you go away to, you know,
[31:08] Speaker 1: Tottenham Hotspur stadium and they spent 400 million pounds, you
[31:11] Speaker 1: expect to play a team that wants to dominate the ball, uh,
[31:14] Speaker 1: or at least you would in the previous season and
[31:16] Speaker 1: a team that wants to try and take the initiative
[31:18] Speaker 1: and win the game. And Newcastle have looked fantastic in
[31:20] Speaker 1: both of those games. And I'm really excited about them
[31:23] Speaker 1: to see how they do this season. I'm very excited
[31:26] Speaker 1: to see them play a team that doesn't play in
[31:27] Speaker 1: that way. That's going to come pretty soon. I think
[31:29] Speaker 1: they play the relegated teams, a couple of them in
[31:32] Speaker 1: their first five or six games.
[31:33] Speaker 2: The newly promoted teams. It's a bit early to be
[31:35] Speaker 2: calling them the relegated teams.
[31:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, the newly promoted teams. They play them pretty soon.
[31:42] Speaker 1: So I'm really interested to see what Newcastle, Matthias Geisler's
[31:46] Speaker 1: Newcastle will look like when they play a team that
[31:48] Speaker 1: doesn't want the initiative, that does sit off more. To
[31:51] Speaker 1: the same extent, can we apply that to Chelsea? Because
[31:53] Speaker 1: their first two games, they played against Fulham, Arbeloa's Fulham,
[31:57] Speaker 1: who we don't really know what they are yet, but
[32:00] Speaker 1: they want the initiative. I think it's clear to say,
[32:02] Speaker 1: based on the transfers that they've made, that they're not
[32:04] Speaker 1: going to sit totally deep. And also Brighton, who, you know,
[32:08] Speaker 1: as we said, I think that 4-0 game against Villa
[32:12] Speaker 1: was the best game of the opening weekend. But the
[32:15] Speaker 1: scoreline did disguise some vulnerabilities in their very aggressive approach
[32:20] Speaker 1: as well. So I'm not sure that there are that
[32:22] Speaker 1: many more teams that are in that category. There are
[32:25] Speaker 1: other elite teams for whom it would be harder for
[32:27] Speaker 1: Chelsea to play against. But I'm not sure there's that
[32:31] Speaker 1: many other mid-tier teams or mid to upper tier teams
[32:35] Speaker 1: in the case of Brighton who do want to take
[32:37] Speaker 1: the initiative, perhaps dominate the ball, who are willing to
[32:40] Speaker 1: play into Chelsea's hands. in that way. So what do
[32:43] Speaker 1: you think on the basis of what we've seen so far,
[32:46] Speaker 1: we would be likely to see, were they to play
[32:49] Speaker 1: against Hull with what they did against Man United?
[32:52] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think you
[32:53] Speaker 3: can also use it the other direction as well. Like
[32:55] Speaker 3: what happens when they come up against a team like Arsenal? where,
[32:58] Speaker 3: you know, if you give Arsenal 75% possession, they probably
[33:02] Speaker 3: will beat you.
[33:03] Speaker 1: If you give them 75% possession, they'll beat you. If
[33:05] Speaker 1: you give them 70 million euros, you can take Gabriel Martinez.
[33:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. It's a great deal. And they're still
[33:11] Speaker 2: fleecing you. It's a great deal. They're still getting fleeced. No,
[33:13] Speaker 2: someone's getting fleeced. I can't remember.
[33:14] Speaker 3: But yeah, I think that's, for me, that's kind of
[33:17] Speaker 3: the interesting thing because maybe these two teams are in
[33:19] Speaker 3: their sweet spot, right?
[33:20] Speaker 2: You're going to give them a lot of possession.
[33:22] Speaker 3: They're going to take that possession, but they're not going to,
[33:25] Speaker 3: cause you too many problems with it. Whereas, you know,
[33:28] Speaker 3: if you come up against a Hull who were very
[33:30] Speaker 3: happy doing the same thing to Manchester United, where they
[33:32] Speaker 3: just sat deep off the ball and made themselves very
[33:35] Speaker 3: hard to break down and got their set-piece goals where
[33:38] Speaker 3: they needed them, that's going to be a very different
[33:41] Speaker 3: tactical approach that is required from Chelsea. And, you know,
[33:44] Speaker 3: I believe that Chelsea will be more than up to
[33:46] Speaker 3: the task of doing that. But then I believe that
[33:48] Speaker 3: Man United were more than up to the task of
[33:50] Speaker 3: doing that to Hull and they couldn't find that way through. So,
[33:53] Speaker 3: So yeah, that will be interesting. And then, yeah, for me,
[33:56] Speaker 3: those are the two, the extreme examples. What happens when
[33:59] Speaker 3: they come up against a City and you give City
[34:01] Speaker 3: that amount of space and time on the ball, you
[34:04] Speaker 3: allow them to progress the ball down the field, no problem.
[34:06] Speaker 3: And then suddenly they're just finding ways into the box
[34:09] Speaker 3: and eventually will break you down. Again, you can win
[34:12] Speaker 3: games in that way. We've seen it happen. Manchester United
[34:15] Speaker 3: did it a lot of times to teams in the
[34:17] Speaker 3: Big Six last season.
[34:19] Speaker 2: There's no reason why Chelsea couldn't do that. But I think.
[34:22] Speaker 3: you're then relying on your team having to have like
[34:25] Speaker 3: very sharp, neat moments when you have your forays into
[34:28] Speaker 3: the opposition half. And you're going to have to be
[34:31] Speaker 3: very good at defending in a block for a large
[34:34] Speaker 3: percentage of the game as well.
[34:35] Speaker 2: Okay. I was going to say, I think that um
[34:40] Speaker 2: there are going to be I actually think he's worth
[34:43] Speaker 2: more than that but um there's there are a lot
[34:47] Speaker 2: of teams I think actually who are going to play
[34:48] Speaker 2: the way Brighton played today and the way uh Fulham
[34:51] Speaker 2: played last week because I think the Premier League because
[34:53] Speaker 2: of the money that all the teams have now is
[34:55] Speaker 2: so much better in terms of quality that the the
[34:58] Speaker 2: type of challenge that Hull faced uh Hull sorry provided
[35:02] Speaker 2: Manchester United in the open day of the season. I
[35:05] Speaker 2: don't think you're going to get that too often anymore
[35:07] Speaker 2: in the Premier League. I don't think you're going to
[35:08] Speaker 2: get teams just coming and sitting deep and low blocking
[35:11] Speaker 2: for as much as they can. Ipswich didn't do that. Exactly.
[35:14] Speaker 2: Ipswich went for it. Coventry will probably go for it.
[35:16] Speaker 2: The next newly promoted team. Leeds will go for it.
[35:19] Speaker 2: I'm just going through the, looking at the Premier League
[35:21] Speaker 2: table now, like Newcastle, Brentford, they will go for it
[35:23] Speaker 2: a little bit. And, I think that there's very few
[35:26] Speaker 2: teams who will provide the kind of challenge that Chelsea
[35:30] Speaker 2: with the kind of low block football will come up against.
[35:32] Speaker 2: So I think... Certainly in the first half of the
[35:34] Speaker 2: season as well.
[35:34] Speaker 3: I think what ends up generally happening is their team
[35:37] Speaker 3: becomes so good at playing in that way that the
[35:40] Speaker 3: opponents are like, well, fine. Given you caused us so
[35:43] Speaker 3: many problems when we tried to have the possession, we'll
[35:45] Speaker 3: not give you as much.
[35:46] Speaker 1: Exactly.
[35:47] Speaker 2: And this is what Arteta and Alonso in his post-match
[35:50] Speaker 2: press conference are talking about in terms of needing that
[35:53] Speaker 2: diversity like you don't need um sledgehammers to win the
[35:55] Speaker 2: premier league anymore you need swiss army knives to kind
[35:57] Speaker 2: of break through the different challenges that you get provided.
[35:59] Speaker 1: Each time the clown car swiss army you.
[36:03] Speaker 2: Do every team every team if you want to win
[36:04] Speaker 2: the premier league needs a swiss army knife squad you
[36:07] Speaker 2: can't just have one single way of playing tactical diversity
[36:09] Speaker 2: exactly exactly and i'm trying to find a i'm finding
[36:12] Speaker 2: it hard to make a serious tactical point it's just
[36:14] Speaker 2: laughing in my face but Oh, welcome to my life.
[36:17] Speaker 2: It deserved really cool. It was just a little mouthful.
[36:21] Speaker 1: I'm laughing just because I popped a little poll in
[36:23] Speaker 1: the live chat. Is Gab Martinelli worth 7 million euros?
[36:27] Speaker 1: 26% of the audience. Oh, 27% of the audience.
[36:30] Speaker 2: The Arsenal fans.
[36:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, say yes.
[36:32] Speaker 2: You did that before I could vote.
[36:34] Speaker 1: Oh, it's flipping now. Could it go 70-30? No, it can't.
[36:38] Speaker 1: It's gone the other way. I'll end the poll there.
[36:39] Speaker 1: 70% of the chat doesn't know ball. That is the case.
[36:43] Speaker 1: There we go. Okay, fine. Listen, let's take a quick break.
[36:46] Speaker 1: And when we come back, we are going to talk
[36:49] Speaker 1: a little bit more about their squad. Chelsea and players
[36:52] Speaker 1: that they might need in order to play this more
[36:54] Speaker 1: transitional style because we know that they have some midfield issues,
[36:58] Speaker 1: let's call it that. We're also going to talk a
[37:00] Speaker 1: little bit about what Xabi Alonso did at Leverkusen to
[37:02] Speaker 1: see if there's anything we can learn from the past
[37:04] Speaker 1: about what might happen in the future. And then we've
[37:07] Speaker 1: got an incredibly hot, dripping wet take from Kaya. Well, listen,
[37:12] Speaker 1: you don't grimace, it's your take. It's my take, but
[37:15] Speaker 1: I want to disown it now after that. That'll be
[37:16] Speaker 1: framed around the question... Can Chelsea win the league? Can
[37:20] Speaker 1: Chelsea win the league? OK, we'll get there. We'll get there.
[37:22] Speaker 1: Have a break first, though. Okie dokie. Also, producer James,
[37:27] Speaker 1: can you just mark down the timing of this so
[37:30] Speaker 1: that I can easily grab the break later?
[37:33] Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks, buddy.
[37:35] Speaker 1: I've lost the live chat, too. Apologies.
[37:38] Speaker 2: I lost the live chat years ago. They hate me.
[37:40] Speaker 2: They lost you after that poll.
[37:41] Speaker 1: I'm back. I found it. OK, here we go.
[37:43] Speaker 2: Here we go. Here we go.
[37:46] Speaker 1: Yeah, we're back. What a delightful break that was. OK,
[37:50] Speaker 1: now we've talked about Chelsea's defence. We've talked about Chelsea's attack.
[37:53] Speaker 1: Let's talk about the middle of the field and the
[37:55] Speaker 1: sort of players that they might need in order to
[37:58] Speaker 1: continue playing this more transitional style or indeed develop their
[38:01] Speaker 1: tactical diversity. As we speak, it is Sunday, the 30th
[38:05] Speaker 1: of August. We have two remaining days, not including today,
[38:09] Speaker 1: of the transfer window before it slams shut. on Tuesday evening,
[38:15] Speaker 1: we're still hearing that it is possible that Enzo Fernandes
[38:19] Speaker 1: will leave before the window closes, despite that deadline that
[38:22] Speaker 1: was set by Chelsea, a very effective deadline set a
[38:25] Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. So I guess the question we
[38:29] Speaker 1: should be framed around, if Fernandes does leave, are they
[38:31] Speaker 1: short in midfield, given the players that they started with today,
[38:35] Speaker 1: and also given the fact that, sadly, Moises Caicedo did
[38:38] Speaker 1: come on today as a substitute today, but then went
[38:40] Speaker 1: off injured and went straight down the tunnel. We don't
[38:43] Speaker 1: have an update on what that is at the moment,
[38:45] Speaker 1: but it didn't look great.
[38:46] Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think if Xabi Alonso is willing to
[38:49] Speaker 3: start midfields that have Rhys James and Romero Lavia and
[38:53] Speaker 3: Romero Lavia and Malagusto in, then it's clear that he
[38:58] Speaker 3: doesn't trust the players who might be more suited to
[39:02] Speaker 3: large space coverage out of possession.
[39:04] Speaker 1: Who are?
[39:05] Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I'm trying to think now. Dario Asugo,
[39:08] Speaker 3: I guess, would be a player like that.
[39:10] Speaker 2: Well, so I'm on the Chelsea website, but their squad
[39:12] Speaker 2: list rather unhelpfully isn't split into midfielders, defenders and attackers.
[39:15] Speaker 2: So you kind of have to really pay attention. So
[39:17] Speaker 2: they've got Barco, Fernandes still, Jordan Henderson. No, he's not
[39:21] Speaker 2: a big space player, is he really? Fernandes, Jordan Henderson,
[39:25] Speaker 2: who we keep forgetting about, Dario Sugo, Moises Caicedo, Reggie Watson,
[39:30] Speaker 2: and then that's it, and Romeo Lavio. Giovanni Quenda? Giovanni
[39:32] Speaker 2: Quenda's a winger slash wingback.
[39:34] Speaker 1: I'm just reading someone who's in the midfield.
[39:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, it is confusing.
[39:38] Speaker 3: So, yeah, they don't really have anyone who is able
[39:41] Speaker 3: to do that. Again, this is a problem that we're
[39:45] Speaker 3: seeing across a lot of big six sides. I think
[39:48] Speaker 3: there's questions about Liverpool's midfield and whether or not they're
[39:50] Speaker 3: able to play the way that Iriola wants them to do.
[39:53] Speaker 3: We've had endless conversations about Manchester United or window about
[39:57] Speaker 3: whether or not they could go into the window without
[39:59] Speaker 3: a bigger space player until... carlos belabor turned up and
[40:03] Speaker 3: sort of solved that one for them um and so
[40:06] Speaker 3: and you know again if you're that this is what
[40:08] Speaker 3: we're talking about right if you are if you don't
[40:10] Speaker 3: have those players to cover large spaces you can't allow
[40:12] Speaker 3: those large spaces to open out so you're naturally going
[40:14] Speaker 3: to not commit as high high forward in the press
[40:17] Speaker 3: for example so uh yeah as things stand it looks
[40:20] Speaker 3: very much like if chelsea are going to want to
[40:23] Speaker 3: have a more aggressive high press uh where they try
[40:25] Speaker 3: and force opponents to to you know, give the ball
[40:28] Speaker 3: away more than they have been doing, then they're going
[40:31] Speaker 3: to have to have a different profile of player in there.
[40:33] Speaker 3: They have been, you know, there's lots of rumors like
[40:36] Speaker 3: flying around about players they could get.
[40:37] Speaker 1: Rumors?
[40:38] Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I don't know.
[40:39] Speaker 1: Filthy, dirty rumors.
[40:40] Speaker 3: I don't know if we've reported on them, but like,
[40:42] Speaker 3: you know, there's the, well, what we have reported on
[40:45] Speaker 3: our deal sheet was that If Fernandes goes, then it's
[40:48] Speaker 3: likely that Chelsea will go for a midfielder of a
[40:51] Speaker 3: different profile, is the phrase.
[40:52] Speaker 2: That was used.
[40:53] Speaker 1: Of a different profile to Fernandes.
[40:55] Speaker 2: To Fernandes, yeah.
[40:56] Speaker 3: So that would suggest that they would go for someone
[40:58] Speaker 3: a bit more in that large space covering profile.
[41:01] Speaker 1: Well, there are several mentions of Adam Wharton in the chat,
[41:05] Speaker 1: not linking him, but people saying, oh, do they need him?
[41:08] Speaker 1: Do they not? I'm sort of thinking I agree with King. No,
[41:12] Speaker 1: no way Palace sell Wharton at this late stage of
[41:14] Speaker 1: the window, particularly given how poorly their season has been.
[41:18] Speaker 3: Yeah and Wharton isn't going to solve that problem for
[41:20] Speaker 3: them I don't think again like you could play Wharton
[41:22] Speaker 3: he would be fantastic in that midfield if you've got
[41:25] Speaker 3: someone like Moises Caicedo next to him I wouldn't like
[41:28] Speaker 3: to go into another game with you know Rhys James
[41:30] Speaker 3: and Adam Wharton I think that would be would be
[41:32] Speaker 3: quite open.
[41:33] Speaker 1: A lot of people asking about Lamine Kamara.
[41:35] Speaker 3: Yeah he seems to be the one that everyone is
[41:37] Speaker 3: talking about I don't know if how official that approach
[41:40] Speaker 3: has been but yeah perfect example of a I think
[41:43] Speaker 3: a midfielder who has the ability to cover large spaces
[41:45] Speaker 3: but also has the requisite ability on the ball as well.
[41:49] Speaker 3: So someone like him would be fantastic. I think Alex
[41:51] Speaker 3: Scott is another one that people talk about a lot. Again,
[41:55] Speaker 3: he's in the sort of Wharton camp of it would
[41:57] Speaker 3: be unlikely that Bournemouth would let him go at this
[41:58] Speaker 3: point in the window. And they've said he's absolutely not going.
[42:02] Speaker 3: But again, he's got that balance of ability to cover space,
[42:07] Speaker 3: but also... a fantastic on-ball guy too.
[42:10] Speaker 1: Okay but it does seem like they probably would need
[42:13] Speaker 1: I mean particularly if Enzo Fernandes leaves but maybe even
[42:16] Speaker 1: if he doesn't it doesn't necessarily seem like they have
[42:18] Speaker 1: the perfect squad if you're a Chelsea fan you might
[42:21] Speaker 1: be thinking maybe we could dip back in before the
[42:23] Speaker 1: end of Tuesday?
[42:24] Speaker 2: Yeah yes and no because they're obviously a team without
[42:27] Speaker 2: European football right so they don't have as many games
[42:29] Speaker 2: as a lot of other teams so they can do
[42:31] Speaker 2: one a week and they can maybe manage players like
[42:33] Speaker 2: Rhys James who haven't been able to maintain fitness for
[42:36] Speaker 2: long periods and and see if they can get him
[42:39] Speaker 2: to play in central field because i don't think he
[42:41] Speaker 2: really i don't think you can play him at right
[42:42] Speaker 2: wing back in 2026 i don't think his hamstrings could
[42:45] Speaker 2: take that maybe right center back maybe right center back
[42:47] Speaker 2: but then i think for funders kind of start the
[42:49] Speaker 2: season okay there and they've got more options there so
[42:51] Speaker 2: if he's to play regularly in this team which obviously
[42:53] Speaker 2: he will because he's the captain central field is kind
[42:56] Speaker 2: of where i see him yeah in an ideal world
[42:58] Speaker 2: i think they probably could do with another one but
[43:01] Speaker 2: i think the squad's kind of it could survive once
[43:04] Speaker 2: you know I can't believe I'm saying this once Jordan
[43:06] Speaker 2: Henderson is back, their squad will be a bit more deep.
[43:10] Speaker 2: It's a weird sentence to say out loud. But yeah,
[43:12] Speaker 2: I don't know who that option is, that long-term solution is,
[43:15] Speaker 2: because Chelsea, particularly in that position, you'd expect them to
[43:17] Speaker 2: buy maybe a younger player, given the profile. I mean,
[43:20] Speaker 2: Caicedo's kind of peak age. Henderson's at the upper end
[43:22] Speaker 2: of the age spectrum. Yeah, I mean, that's what we're putting. Generously.
[43:27] Speaker 2: I'm also at the upper end of the age spectrum,
[43:29] Speaker 2: I think. Maybe they'll sign you, John. Maybe. Maybe you're
[43:31] Speaker 2: the solution. but uh yeah they could do with one
[43:34] Speaker 2: but i i wouldn't be i don't think it's catastrophic
[43:37] Speaker 2: if they get another one in i think they will be.
[43:38] Speaker 1: All right just to be self-indulgent for one one second
[43:42] Speaker 1: it's my birthday soon yes and i'm about to turn
[43:44] Speaker 1: 36 and i don't i've never had an age wobble
[43:48] Speaker 1: before how 36 is the one i'm having an age
[43:50] Speaker 1: wobble i.
[43:52] Speaker 3: Remember that i think yeah because you've You realize that
[43:54] Speaker 3: you're letting your 30s go.
[43:57] Speaker 1: I'm having existential crises. I'm like, what have I done
[44:01] Speaker 1: with my life?
[44:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
[44:02] Speaker 1: Well, I'm 36 years old.
[44:04] Speaker 2: Your 30s are great, right?
[44:05] Speaker 3: Because your 30s are your 20s, but you're like actually
[44:08] Speaker 3: able to enjoy them properly.
[44:09] Speaker 2: Yeah. And people think, oh, when you're 20, you're like, oh,
[44:11] Speaker 2: 30 is so old.
[44:12] Speaker 3: But actually, 20s is largely like whatever nightmare. But then
[44:15] Speaker 3: when you get to 30s, you do that again, but
[44:18] Speaker 3: with more understanding.
[44:19] Speaker 1: I hear confidently that people in their 40s also say
[44:23] Speaker 1: it's better than the 30s.
[44:25] Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. I don't think that's true.
[44:27] Speaker 1: That's because you like playing football, 11-a-side football.
[44:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's true.
[44:30] Speaker 3: That's largely torched any 11-a-side aspirations I have. But, like,
[44:35] Speaker 3: I don't know. I felt turning 40 was way better.
[44:38] Speaker 3: way worse than turning 30. And I think turning 36,
[44:41] Speaker 3: I also had that wobble where I was like, I'm
[44:44] Speaker 3: over the hill now of my 30s. I have to
[44:47] Speaker 3: suck the marrow out of life.
[44:50] Speaker 2: And I don't feel as though I did, Joe.
[44:53] Speaker 1: I don't feel as though I did. I watched a
[44:55] Speaker 1: lot of football. I think you've got plenty of marrow.
[44:58] Speaker 1: There's a lot of football-shaped marrow.
[45:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
[45:01] Speaker 1: I'll give you that.
[45:01] Speaker 2: It's the marrow of your bones, not like a marrow vegetable.
[45:04] Speaker 1: No, I understand. But you're lacking marrow in other areas
[45:06] Speaker 1: of life.
[45:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a bit one-dimensional.
[45:08] Speaker 1: You're feasting on a big football bow.
[45:10] Speaker 2: That's true.
[45:11] Speaker 1: Yeah, well done to you. Anyway, that's a different kind of.
[45:14] Speaker 2: Can I just mention the back line as well? Yeah, no,
[45:16] Speaker 2: please do.
[45:16] Speaker 3: Because I think there's been... Again, in terms of what
[45:19] Speaker 3: we were talking about before with not wanting to put
[45:20] Speaker 3: that back line... Expose that back line, but... obviously they
[45:24] Speaker 3: signed Maxence Lacroix and that means that he has to
[45:28] Speaker 3: play basically in the middle of that three if they're
[45:30] Speaker 3: playing a three and that forces Lever Colwell out wide
[45:34] Speaker 3: and I think in many respects it feels I think
[45:37] Speaker 3: we may mention this on one of the podcasts but
[45:39] Speaker 3: it feels like he naturally should be good on that
[45:41] Speaker 3: side of the pitch but I think I think you
[45:43] Speaker 3: end up with this scenario where you're actually moving him
[45:45] Speaker 3: out of what would be his better position which would
[45:47] Speaker 3: be in the middle of a back of a back
[45:49] Speaker 3: three and then maybe playing someone like Jor-El Hato as
[45:52] Speaker 3: the outside centre-back on the left-hand side. So there's certain
[45:55] Speaker 3: decisions that they made as well in the recruitment where
[45:59] Speaker 3: I sort of feel as though maybe they could bring
[46:02] Speaker 3: someone in as a centre-back that would really just shore
[46:04] Speaker 3: up that back line and give them a bit more
[46:06] Speaker 3: flexibility as well. Whether or not they do that, I
[46:08] Speaker 3: don't know, but I just thought it would be worth
[46:10] Speaker 3: mentioning given that we're talking about what things that might
[46:13] Speaker 3: cause them problems if they do try and play a
[46:15] Speaker 3: little bit more of a possession approach.
[46:17] Speaker 1: That's fair enough. Well, one thing to add from Dexter
[46:19] Speaker 1: in the chat, Joe Ronaldo's second United spell began at 36,
[46:22] Speaker 1: so it's not that old. Although that does make me
[46:24] Speaker 1: think I'm going to start to be a tactical problem
[46:26] Speaker 1: at work. A little bit concerned about that.
[46:28] Speaker 2: We do carry you at the best of times.
[46:30] Speaker 1: We do. OK, let's talk a little bit about Xabi
[46:33] Speaker 1: Alonso's Leverkusen, because I don't know loads about it, but
[46:36] Speaker 1: the thing I do know is that across the course of,
[46:40] Speaker 1: what was he there for? He was there at least
[46:41] Speaker 1: for two seasons, right?
[46:43] Speaker 2: Sort of three and most of another.
[46:45] Speaker 1: Three and some change.
[46:45] Speaker 2: He comes in after Gerrard.
[46:48] Speaker 3: Right, right.
[46:48] Speaker 1: But there are two distinct eras, right? And the first
[46:51] Speaker 1: era is the one where he solves their defensive problems
[46:54] Speaker 1: and gets them into, they become a solid team. And
[46:56] Speaker 1: the second era is where he then starts to evolve
[46:59] Speaker 1: them on from there. So I'm wondering, looking at this
[47:01] Speaker 1: Chelsea team, not having the ball, wondering, is this being mirrored?
[47:06] Speaker 1: Are we seeing him try to create something which is
[47:09] Speaker 1: defensively more stable, which would be interesting given how open
[47:12] Speaker 1: they are. I don't know. What do you think? Is
[47:13] Speaker 1: there anything we can learn from it?
[47:15] Speaker 3: I think it's a really interesting question, right? Because one
[47:17] Speaker 3: of the things we know about coaches coming in is
[47:19] Speaker 3: that if you don't come in and have like an
[47:21] Speaker 3: immediate impact in terms of wins and generally at a
[47:24] Speaker 3: big six club, then the fans immediately get on your back, right?
[47:29] Speaker 3: So we've seen that from Iriola, we've seen that from
[47:31] Speaker 3: Roberto de Zerbi. And, you know, the big question is,
[47:36] Speaker 3: are they going to be there long enough to actually
[47:38] Speaker 3: implement the changes that they want to implement? And so
[47:42] Speaker 3: what I think is really interesting about someone like Alonso
[47:45] Speaker 3: is that and we've seen this I think of both
[47:47] Speaker 3: of the big clubs he's worked with so far is
[47:49] Speaker 3: that he tries to put himself in a situation where
[47:51] Speaker 3: he's going to get the most out of those players
[47:52] Speaker 3: immediately to then afford himself the time to make the
[47:56] Speaker 3: the sort of tweaks that he needs to get the
[47:59] Speaker 3: team to the level that they're at so that first
[48:00] Speaker 3: season at Leverkusen they played a very different style of
[48:03] Speaker 3: football from what they ended up playing and you know
[48:04] Speaker 3: I watched a lot of that Leverkusen season and was
[48:06] Speaker 3: very much like you know largely unimpressed with it because
[48:09] Speaker 3: it just I think the phrase that I was chatting
[48:12] Speaker 3: to Seb Stafford-Bloor about this just before we came on
[48:16] Speaker 3: air and he was saying that, yeah, he's just well
[48:18] Speaker 3: known for like a lot of horseshoeing, so not giving
[48:20] Speaker 3: away too much and obviously like didn't have the benefits
[48:25] Speaker 3: of having, you know, the front three that he has
[48:27] Speaker 3: at Chelsea. And so maybe it didn't necessarily result in
[48:30] Speaker 3: like the most attractive football, but he came in when
[48:32] Speaker 3: Leverkusen were in danger of relegation and he carried them
[48:35] Speaker 3: up to sixth, seventh place sixth place in the table
[48:37] Speaker 3: I think it was at the end in that first
[48:38] Speaker 3: season and he did it by just being very solid
[48:40] Speaker 3: and getting the results that they needed and then in
[48:42] Speaker 3: the second season they had like a really really good
[48:44] Speaker 3: recruitment brought in sort of the players to play the
[48:46] Speaker 3: way that that famous Leverkusen team played which was incidentally
[48:50] Speaker 3: very similar structurally to what we've seen from from Chelsea
[48:54] Speaker 3: as well so does.
[48:56] Speaker 1: That then lead us to believe that we might not
[48:58] Speaker 1: either we just don't require that first step because Chelsea
[49:01] Speaker 1: aren't languishing near the bottom of the table and or
[49:03] Speaker 1: we maybe skipped it.
[49:05] Speaker 3: Yeah, and the player base that he has is just
[49:08] Speaker 3: much better.
[49:09] Speaker 2: I know we can complain all we.
[49:10] Speaker 3: Like about Chelsea's recruitment, but yeah, and it's still patchy squad.
[49:15] Speaker 3: But the players they have there, yeah like that front
[49:17] Speaker 3: three is just incredible it's probably the best front three
[49:20] Speaker 3: in the league probably I'm not really thought about that
[49:22] Speaker 3: but probably.
[49:23] Speaker 1: You've said it let's think about it now it's the
[49:24] Speaker 1: best front three in the league I think so okay
[49:27] Speaker 1: well it's so we're saying it's better than Mboma, Cunha,
[49:30] Speaker 1: Chesco whatever yeah I think so fine.
[49:34] Speaker 2: Harland, Semenyo, Gakpo in there as well now yeah potentially i.
[49:40] Speaker 3: Mean on a level i think harlan carries that that
[49:44] Speaker 3: that's slightly higher maybe than than but i'm a fan of.
[49:48] Speaker 1: What about uh barcala isaac and um.
[49:54] Speaker 3: Whoever they play in the other side now.
[49:57] Speaker 1: Can i throw in there as a sort of you
[49:59] Speaker 1: know yeah i mean.
[50:00] Speaker 3: You're just trying to you're just trying to generate i'm
[50:02] Speaker 3: trying to destroy the narrative yeah yeah I mean, I
[50:06] Speaker 3: still think.
[50:06] Speaker 2: Are we seriously not going to mention the Arsenal front-liner?
[50:08] Speaker 2: I know it's not them, but... I know it's not them,
[50:12] Speaker 2: but come on. Who cares about... Come on. Jokeres Saka. Saka. Yeah.
[50:17] Speaker 2: Washed Saka as well. Yeah, I mean, you probably should
[50:20] Speaker 2: have kept quiet, really. No.
[50:22] Speaker 3: No, I mean, I think, and certainly in terms of, like,
[50:26] Speaker 3: performances at the moment, they're probably up there with City.
[50:29] Speaker 2: It's probably a balance between them and City.
[50:30] Speaker 1: Okay. Look, he's actually upset. He's actually feeling.
[50:35] Speaker 2: Just disrespecting the champion.
[50:36] Speaker 3: Do you disagree with that? Would you put them in
[50:38] Speaker 3: that same... Would I put Arsenal in the same bracket?
[50:40] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[50:40] Speaker 1: Arsenal's front three.
[50:42] Speaker 2: And we're talking, like, incredible players here. So it's like,
[50:44] Speaker 2: it's very.
[50:44] Speaker 1: We're really saying, so at least, Havertz and Saka. That's
[50:47] Speaker 1: what we're saying.
[50:48] Speaker 2: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good to me. Yeah. No,
[50:53] Speaker 2: I mean. you were saying something about horses. It's a horse.
[50:57] Speaker 2: He was saying about horseshoes. That's it. Yeah. Horseshoes. Yeah. No,
[50:59] Speaker 2: it's a, it's a horses for courses question anyway. Right.
[51:02] Speaker 3: Because what Arsenal's front three do is very different from
[51:05] Speaker 3: what Chelsea is doing.
[51:07] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[51:07] Speaker 3: But also Chelsea, I think Chelsea are using their players in,
[51:10] Speaker 3: in sort of like, let's just give them the perfect
[51:12] Speaker 3: attacking conditions.
[51:13] Speaker 2: Right.
[51:14] Speaker 3: And the question is going to be if they ever
[51:15] Speaker 3: get to a point where they are like Arsenal and
[51:17] Speaker 3: they have ball control, how good will that front three
[51:19] Speaker 3: prove to be, which is a different question entirely.
[51:21] Speaker 2: And, You know, ranking things is stupid. All it does
[51:23] Speaker 2: is piss people off. Yeah, I agree.
[51:26] Speaker 3: Especially against me. But yeah, the point being, what was
[51:29] Speaker 3: the point? What were we talking about?
[51:31] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
[51:32] Speaker 3: He didn't have that at Leverkusen, right? So it does
[51:36] Speaker 3: sort of change the conditions. But I think what we
[51:37] Speaker 3: should be aware of with Xabi Alonso is that he
[51:40] Speaker 3: has evolved during his times at other clubs as well.
[51:43] Speaker 3: So we should expect that to happen here. I suspect
[51:46] Speaker 3: that regardless of what we say about the tactical landscape
[51:50] Speaker 3: as it is, 25% possession is not enough.
[51:54] Speaker 2: No.
[51:55] Speaker 3: And he'll know that and he'll think, yeah, we need
[51:58] Speaker 3: to change things. It is worth mentioning game state as
[52:01] Speaker 3: well because I think a lot of people bring up
[52:02] Speaker 3: game state in this sort of context because against Fulham,
[52:06] Speaker 3: they scored in like.
[52:07] Speaker 2: two, three minutes.
[52:08] Speaker 3: Seconds.
[52:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very quick.
[52:11] Speaker 3: And then against Brighton, they were scoring in what, like seventh,
[52:14] Speaker 3: eighth minute, was it around then?
[52:15] Speaker 2: Fourth minute, I think it was. Was it even? Yeah. Okay.
[52:17] Speaker 3: But either way, they scored quite early. Now, Fulham did
[52:19] Speaker 3: get back into the game, so that does sort of
[52:21] Speaker 3: change things a little bit. But it is worth addressing this,
[52:24] Speaker 3: I think, because again, in the past, Man City have
[52:28] Speaker 3: gone ahead in games very early and their attitude wouldn't be, oh,
[52:31] Speaker 3: we're going to sit back and defend now. We now
[52:35] Speaker 3: have the conditions to defend possess the ball better.
[52:37] Speaker 1: It should be easier for us this is the flip
[52:38] Speaker 1: side of the coin we were talking about.
[52:40] Speaker 3: Earlier right exactly so the fact that we're seeing teams
[52:42] Speaker 3: now getting into positive game states and then being a
[52:45] Speaker 3: little bit more conservative with what they're doing some of
[52:48] Speaker 3: them like for example Arsenal being quite happy to have
[52:50] Speaker 3: periods where they sit deeper and allow the opponent to
[52:53] Speaker 3: have the ball because they know they're so good out
[52:55] Speaker 3: of possession that they can almost rest in those situations
[52:58] Speaker 3: and they can sort of regenerate a bit of energy.
[53:01] Speaker 3: And in those scenarios, I think Arsenal are really good
[53:03] Speaker 3: at working out when things are dangerous and when they're not.
[53:06] Speaker 3: So they'll allow the opponent to have the ball. And
[53:08] Speaker 3: then if they feel as though they're getting into a
[53:10] Speaker 3: situation where it's too dangerous, they have ways of getting
[53:12] Speaker 3: out of that low block and causing them problems as well.
[53:15] Speaker 3: So this isn't just me saying, oh, you know, Arsenal
[53:17] Speaker 3: are low blocking country now. I think what we're talking
[53:19] Speaker 3: about is teams finding ways of using out of possession
[53:23] Speaker 3: as a way of sort of even just periodizing their
[53:26] Speaker 3: game so they're not running the whole time right because
[53:28] Speaker 3: that's one of the hardest things to to do when
[53:30] Speaker 3: you're in winning game states like how do you control
[53:32] Speaker 3: a game um because some teams are just better at
[53:35] Speaker 3: attacking and so you you kind of think well if we're,
[53:39] Speaker 3: if we're in a winning situation and we're best when
[53:41] Speaker 3: we're attacking, doesn't that just mean we should keep attacking?
[53:44] Speaker 3: I mean, this is the problem that Irola's Bournemouth had,
[53:46] Speaker 3: which was, you know, they were very aggressive and intense
[53:48] Speaker 3: when they were in drawing or losing game states. But
[53:51] Speaker 3: as soon as they got into winning game states, it
[53:53] Speaker 3: was kind of like, we're just going to knacker ourselves
[53:55] Speaker 3: if we just continue at the same intensity. So yeah,
[53:57] Speaker 3: you have to find ways of controlling your, your team's
[53:59] Speaker 3: like the physical aspects as well. So yeah, I think
[54:02] Speaker 3: it's going to be, it's going to be really interesting.
[54:04] Speaker 3: And I've forgotten where we started from, but yeah. Um,
[54:07] Speaker 3: Where did we start for this one?
[54:08] Speaker 1: Don't worry, he's got a lot to say. Sorry.
[54:10] Speaker 2: No, it's fine.
[54:11] Speaker 1: It's good. I like it. Now, we're going to move on, though.
[54:13] Speaker 1: We're just going to say there are some things to
[54:16] Speaker 1: learn from Leverkusen, and they were in what you said there. Okay. Yes, yes.
[54:21] Speaker 2: Somewhere in there.
[54:22] Speaker 1: Now, I'm excited about this part of the show because
[54:24] Speaker 1: this is the... No, don't make that face, Kaya.
[54:26] Speaker 2: Because the Kaya's dripping hot takes.
[54:28] Speaker 1: Kaya's sad now because we made fun of... Oh, it's.
[54:31] Speaker 2: Nice about Arsenal then, though.
[54:32] Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, no.
[54:34] Speaker 2: Although I still think a part of him... Arsenal fans
[54:36] Speaker 2: famously move on quickly. We don't hold on to things.
[54:38] Speaker 1: Listen, I'm not about to make fun of you, okay?
[54:40] Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to hearing this exciting take. You've got
[54:45] Speaker 1: a take. You had it earlier. You said to me,
[54:47] Speaker 1: what about this? And I said, oh, that's interesting. Now,
[54:50] Speaker 1: what is it, Kai? What is it?
[54:52] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, this has been built up in a way
[54:53] Speaker 2: that's going to make me... What's your massive, massive... What's
[54:56] Speaker 2: your most important idea to date? To date? No, it's this.
[55:01] Speaker 2: Just read it out.
[55:01] Speaker 3: Okay.
[55:02] Speaker 2: It's the idea that for years and years, Chelsea have
[55:05] Speaker 2: been building towards something, right? The whole project since... blue
[55:08] Speaker 2: coat took over and all the money that's been spent
[55:09] Speaker 2: transfer window after transfer and after transfer window they've been
[55:11] Speaker 2: among the top spenders net spend i know it's a
[55:13] Speaker 2: bit lower but they've been among the top spenders every
[55:15] Speaker 2: single time and lots of investment in a squad that
[55:18] Speaker 2: is building towards something and every single season we've kind
[55:22] Speaker 2: of given them a pass for not being in the
[55:26] Speaker 2: title conversation or not being uh higher up the league
[55:29] Speaker 2: than they probably should have been so like last season
[55:31] Speaker 2: it was um managerial turmoil and defensive issues and in
[55:37] Speaker 2: previous seasons, it's been, they didn't have a striker. And
[55:39] Speaker 2: I think it was Enzo Maresca's first season. And then
[55:41] Speaker 2: they fixed that. And then their midfield was a bit
[55:43] Speaker 2: of a problem because they had injuries all the time.
[55:46] Speaker 2: They didn't have a left back for a while when
[55:47] Speaker 2: Kukere was injured. And they didn't have a right back
[55:49] Speaker 2: when Rich James kept getting injured. And it feels like
[55:51] Speaker 2: they've now solved those. And the final piece of the
[55:53] Speaker 2: jigsaw probably was goalkeeper. And Robert Sanchez, as we saw
[55:57] Speaker 2: in the Fulham game, was a problem for them. And
[55:59] Speaker 2: they needed to upgrade on that. And now Emi Marquez
[56:01] Speaker 2: is a much better goalkeeper and should, in theory, fix
[56:04] Speaker 2: that problem for them. So I just start to think,
[56:07] Speaker 2: particularly with no Europe this season, What excuses are left
[56:11] Speaker 2: for Chelsea not to be involved in a title race?
[56:13] Speaker 2: The one that springs to mind, obviously, is it's Alonso's
[56:16] Speaker 2: first season. But beyond that, and we were talking about
[56:18] Speaker 2: him being a great manager, which I think he is,
[56:20] Speaker 2: and they're adapting to the tactical meta that's shifting and
[56:23] Speaker 2: they look really good and really exciting. But I think,
[56:26] Speaker 2: and this will sound harsh, but if Chelsea finished lower
[56:29] Speaker 2: than second place... I think there's an argument that that's
[56:32] Speaker 2: actually a bit of a disappointment for them this season.
[56:34] Speaker 1: Could you argue third? Because I mean, so far, Moresca's
[56:37] Speaker 1: Man City have looked.
[56:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, depends how given, but given the amount of transition
[56:41] Speaker 2: going on at Chelsea, sorry, at City and the issues
[56:43] Speaker 2: that are there in their squad where we don't quite
[56:45] Speaker 2: know what they're going to do going forward. Their midfield
[56:47] Speaker 2: is completely new. Chelsea don't really have that going on.
[56:51] Speaker 2: The kind of the big new position is goalkeeper. I
[56:53] Speaker 2: know Morgan Rogers has come in, but that's, sort of
[56:55] Speaker 2: cherry on the cake territory in there. He's not a
[56:57] Speaker 2: goalkeeper though, right? He isn't a goalkeeper. If they played
[56:59] Speaker 2: him in goal, that wouldn't have solved the solution. Do
[57:01] Speaker 2: you reckon.
[57:02] Speaker 1: There's some agreement in the chat that this is dripping wet,
[57:06] Speaker 1: by the way.
[57:07] Speaker 2: It's a hot, dripping wet chat.
[57:09] Speaker 3: I was going to go completely off-piste and say, for
[57:11] Speaker 3: a team, let's say Arsenal win the league, who do
[57:13] Speaker 3: you reckon is a player in their squad who they
[57:16] Speaker 3: could actually play in goal and still win the league?
[57:18] Speaker 2: Or do you think there's no one existing? Good question.
[57:21] Speaker 3: If you're both, all of your goalkeepers, I know they
[57:23] Speaker 3: have provisions to bring in new goalkeepers if you lose
[57:25] Speaker 3: too many of them.
[57:26] Speaker 1: Gabriel, surely.
[57:27] Speaker 2: I think stick Gabriel in goal. I mean, the harsh answer.
[57:30] Speaker 1: If you put him there, then you won't score any
[57:32] Speaker 1: goals from corners. That's the downside.
[57:33] Speaker 2: You send him up for corners, he'll be all right.
[57:35] Speaker 1: Just have another outfield player.
[57:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. He'd probably be better than Kepa, to be fair.
[57:39] Speaker 2: Not that stuff. So your take is we should expect
[57:49] Speaker 2: them to be in a title challenge. Yeah. Given where. Yeah.
[57:51] Speaker 2: And I think if they're not in the title conversation
[57:54] Speaker 2: at any point this season, then that is disappointing for Chelsea.
[57:57] Speaker 2: I think that's, that's not unreasonable. Given the amount of
[57:59] Speaker 2: money that's been spent on them and the lack of
[58:01] Speaker 2: problem areas in their squad now, I don't think it's
[58:03] Speaker 2: unfair to say we do have to start expecting something
[58:06] Speaker 2: at some point from this Chelsea team. They can't just
[58:08] Speaker 2: be in transition and building and building. Eventually, you have
[58:12] Speaker 2: to get to the final destination where you're trying to
[58:14] Speaker 2: get to. And I think now is kind of the
[58:16] Speaker 2: time where we can start to expect that. I'm not
[58:18] Speaker 2: saying they should or they will. I'm just thinking it's
[58:22] Speaker 2: kind of time for us to say Chelsea needs to
[58:24] Speaker 2: be in the start of conversation. And if they're not
[58:26] Speaker 2: at this point... particularly given they've had experience with their squad,
[58:29] Speaker 2: that's a disappointment.
[58:30] Speaker 1: I think that's fair. And I would also say there's
[58:33] Speaker 1: a couple of people in the live chat who are
[58:35] Speaker 1: challenging you and saying, isn't this just similar to the
[58:38] Speaker 1: idea of a billion dollar bottle job thing? But that's
[58:41] Speaker 1: not what you're saying. You're not saying that they won't
[58:44] Speaker 1: do it or they will do it. You're simply saying
[58:46] Speaker 1: that when you look at the squad as it stands
[58:48] Speaker 1: two days before deadline day, there is no reason.
[58:51] Speaker 3: And the condition that they have. very like they're playing
[58:54] Speaker 3: the premier league on easy mode as we said last
[58:56] Speaker 3: year for man united.
[58:57] Speaker 1: Because because there's no european there's no obvious like narrative
[59:01] Speaker 1: reason why they.
[59:02] Speaker 2: Apart from it being alonzo's first season yeah but honest
[59:04] Speaker 2: lot did it in his first season i know there's
[59:06] Speaker 2: different conditions there but i think the billionaire bottle jobs
[59:09] Speaker 2: or whatever the quote was, was that the, that was
[59:11] Speaker 2: Pochettino's season in the Liverpool Carabao Cup final, right? I
[59:14] Speaker 2: thought that was a reference to Arsenal. Ha ha.
[59:17] Speaker 3: They spent a billion and they won the league. They
[59:19] Speaker 3: bottled it a few times before that.
[59:21] Speaker 1: Gary Neville also regretted saying it because it stuck with
[59:25] Speaker 1: Pochettino for a long time. It was a bit soundbite.
[59:28] Speaker 2: You're right. You're right. And also that was a much
[59:29] Speaker 2: younger squad with a lot more obvious problem positions that
[59:32] Speaker 2: I don't think this Chelsea squad has. A lot of
[59:34] Speaker 2: that team has been at the club for two, three
[59:37] Speaker 2: seasons now. Yeah, I think it's time to start expecting
[59:39] Speaker 2: a little bit more from them. And I don't think
[59:42] Speaker 2: kind of. finishing in the top four. If they come fourth, 15,
[59:45] Speaker 2: 20 points off the title, I don't think that's good
[59:47] Speaker 2: enough for them.
[59:49] Speaker 1: I would say I don't agree with the billion dollar
[59:51] Speaker 1: bottle job people, but I do agree with Aisha Idiot,
[59:55] Speaker 1: who says intentionally putting pressure on Chelsea to get it
[59:57] Speaker 1: off Arsenal, which I think is Kaya's real ploy here.
[1:00:00] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think people are probably getting a bit carried
[1:00:03] Speaker 3: away with Chelsea at this point because they've won a
[1:00:05] Speaker 3: couple of games.
[1:00:06] Speaker 1: You think Kaya's getting carried away?
[1:00:08] Speaker 3: No, just that I think that this Chelsea team, I
[1:00:11] Speaker 3: don't think are going to be in a title challenge
[1:00:13] Speaker 3: necessarily they could be because i think part of the
[1:00:16] Speaker 3: tactical meta shift that we're talking about is that actually
[1:00:19] Speaker 3: the things that matter you know going back to the
[1:00:20] Speaker 3: michael arteta quote it's like you've got to win those
[1:00:23] Speaker 3: three games in your five sets to to get they
[1:00:25] Speaker 3: they have the ability to do that but will it
[1:00:28] Speaker 3: be a disappointment if they're not i don't think i
[1:00:30] Speaker 3: don't think so i also agree with kaya's octane well
[1:00:32] Speaker 3: i i think.
[1:00:33] Speaker 2: That Or in cold water on my hot tank.
[1:00:36] Speaker 3: I don't think that they are at a level right
[1:00:37] Speaker 3: now where they should be expecting to be in the
[1:00:40] Speaker 3: title challenge.
[1:00:41] Speaker 2: I don't think the performances they put in.
[1:00:42] Speaker 1: What's the story here?
[1:00:44] Speaker 3: I think control of some form. I think they're going
[1:00:47] Speaker 3: to come out on the wrong side of some of
[1:00:49] Speaker 3: these games where they are incredibly open. For example, in
[1:00:53] Speaker 3: the game today... They got into, I mean, let's do
[1:00:56] Speaker 3: both games. The Fulham game, they were ahead in however
[1:00:58] Speaker 3: many seconds because Fulham, you know, they split their centre-backs wide,
[1:01:03] Speaker 3: boomed the ball into the channel. Both centre midfielders evacuated
[1:01:06] Speaker 3: the space. Maxence Lacroix heads the ball, takes out eight players.
[1:01:09] Speaker 3: And then they're through. They're then 1-0 up and you're
[1:01:11] Speaker 3: into that scenario where you're in a positive game state
[1:01:14] Speaker 3: and you can control the conditions a.
[1:01:16] Speaker 2: Little bit more.
[1:01:16] Speaker 3: Same, I think, happened today with, like, what did they
[1:01:18] Speaker 3: do for the first goal? It was a corner that
[1:01:21] Speaker 3: was fumbled and the goalkeeper probably should have caught it.
[1:01:23] Speaker 3: If FIFA wasn't there, he might have done it. That's
[1:01:26] Speaker 3: not to say that they wouldn't have gone on and won.
[1:01:28] Speaker 3: It's just that we don't know at this point what
[1:01:30] Speaker 3: happens when they're in a scenario when... Actually, they don't
[1:01:33] Speaker 3: end up in a negative game state. And so I
[1:01:35] Speaker 3: just think we need to see way more from them
[1:01:37] Speaker 3: at this point to really know.
[1:01:38] Speaker 2: I mean, I know that's not the point.
[1:01:40] Speaker 3: You're not making a tactical point. You're saying the amount
[1:01:42] Speaker 3: of money they spend, they should be at a point
[1:01:44] Speaker 3: where they start actually producing something.
[1:01:47] Speaker 1: No, I think I think we're saying that there's no
[1:01:49] Speaker 1: obvious reason why they shouldn't. Whereas you're disagreeing and you're saying, no,
[1:01:52] Speaker 1: the obvious reason is the lack of control.
[1:01:54] Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that it could be the case
[1:01:56] Speaker 3: that they solve that in the course of the season.
[1:01:58] Speaker 1: Or it could be the case that it's not required
[1:02:00] Speaker 1: to win the Premier League this year because as we've
[1:02:03] Speaker 1: just spent the first 20 minutes talking about, control is
[1:02:05] Speaker 1: maybe a misnomer.
[1:02:06] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, of course.
[1:02:07] Speaker 3: But I do think that a level of control some way,
[1:02:09] Speaker 3: it doesn't have to necessarily be possession control. And that's
[1:02:12] Speaker 3: why I'm pushing back a little bit, because I don't
[1:02:15] Speaker 3: think that they've been defending particularly well or well enough
[1:02:18] Speaker 3: to then be like, well, it's fine that they have
[1:02:19] Speaker 3: low possession because they're very good out of possession. I
[1:02:22] Speaker 3: don't think that's the case. And yeah, does that mean
[1:02:25] Speaker 3: that I think they could win the league? Yeah, I
[1:02:27] Speaker 3: didn't think Liverpool could win the league and they did it.
[1:02:29] Speaker 3: All it takes is for a team like this now
[1:02:30] Speaker 3: to have a really good run for the first half
[1:02:32] Speaker 3: of the season, everything to go right, keep your players fit,
[1:02:35] Speaker 3: have things go in your favour, like refereeing decisions, VAR decisions.
[1:02:41] Speaker 3: Find ways of being able to keep your players in recovery,
[1:02:45] Speaker 3: like good recovery, which is going to be easier for
[1:02:46] Speaker 3: them because they've got no Europe. They could easily come
[1:02:50] Speaker 3: out top of the league and then, you know, random things.
[1:02:53] Speaker 3: I mean, so the issue is going to be, I
[1:02:56] Speaker 3: think people will say Man City and Arsenal. Like, how
[1:02:59] Speaker 3: are those two teams going to fail individually? fail enough
[1:03:02] Speaker 3: for Chelsea to get there. And I think, you know,
[1:03:05] Speaker 3: with City, they are trying to do the possession control thing.
[1:03:08] Speaker 3: Maybe it'll work. Maybe it'll be fine for them. But
[1:03:11] Speaker 3: I can see a world where they do have a
[1:03:13] Speaker 3: few games where they struggle. I mean, they struggled against
[1:03:14] Speaker 3: Bournemouth last weekend, right? They did manage to get back
[1:03:17] Speaker 3: into that game, but I could see them having a
[1:03:19] Speaker 3: few games where they aren't able to control the games
[1:03:20] Speaker 3: as well as they want to. And yeah, with Arsenal,
[1:03:23] Speaker 3: I don't know. It's hard to see Arsenal not winning
[1:03:26] Speaker 3: the league, but.
[1:03:27] Speaker 2: I guess my point is we're beyond the point now
[1:03:29] Speaker 2: with this Chelsea project where in my opinion at least,
[1:03:32] Speaker 2: where it's kind of okay to expect that other teams
[1:03:35] Speaker 2: need to fail for them to win. In terms of
[1:03:37] Speaker 2: money spent? Not just in terms of money spent, but
[1:03:40] Speaker 2: in terms of the squad itself and the way it's
[1:03:41] Speaker 2: built now. It's a really good squad, I think.
[1:03:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree.
[1:03:44] Speaker 2: And I think there's not excuses anymore for them to
[1:03:47] Speaker 2: be 10, 15 points off the top.
[1:03:48] Speaker 3: Would you put them in the same bracket as City
[1:03:50] Speaker 3: and Arsenal? Because that's what, for me, is just holding
[1:03:54] Speaker 3: me back.
[1:03:54] Speaker 1: And actually, it's worth saying also that Andy TC in
[1:03:58] Speaker 1: the chat is framing it in a slightly different way, saying,
[1:04:00] Speaker 1: is the difference here being better or worse than Man
[1:04:02] Speaker 1: United and Liverpool? Between City and Arsenal, Man United and Liverpool.
[1:04:06] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think they should definitely be expecting to
[1:04:08] Speaker 2: be way better than Manchester United this season. Sorry. Always
[1:04:12] Speaker 2: slips out. I always does. I'm very sorry. Manchester United
[1:04:15] Speaker 2: and Liverpool should be a long way behind Chelsea in
[1:04:17] Speaker 2: terms of the transitions they're going through, the flaws that
[1:04:20] Speaker 2: you guys will talk about in tomorrow's show or Tuesday's show, sorry.
[1:04:24] Speaker 2: I think Chelsea should be in that conversation with Arsenal
[1:04:27] Speaker 2: and City. And I don't think, given the circumstances around
[1:04:30] Speaker 2: them where they don't have European football this season... And
[1:04:32] Speaker 2: they have quite a lot of squad depth. Like for
[1:04:34] Speaker 2: a team who are going to potentially play just for, well,
[1:04:37] Speaker 2: 41 games this season, they've got a lot of players.
[1:04:40] Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, I think they should be in
[1:04:43] Speaker 2: the conversation in regards to, City and Arsenal, I think
[1:04:46] Speaker 2: City are going through a lot of transition that means
[1:04:48] Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised if they tail off a bit
[1:04:50] Speaker 2: this season. I think we said already, Joe and I
[1:04:51] Speaker 2: both said we had them around fourth in our predictions.
[1:04:54] Speaker 1: And the chat also asking, should City be in the
[1:04:56] Speaker 1: same bracket as Arsenal? I think that's fair.
[1:04:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a fair question. Yeah.
[1:04:59] Speaker 1: So, Kai, there you go. Kai has it. He's predicting
[1:05:01] Speaker 1: that Arsenal will win the Premier League. He's saying there's
[1:05:03] Speaker 1: no reason why they shouldn't or Chelsea. There we go.
[1:05:06] Speaker 1: We're sort of rounding up. I think I will say
[1:05:09] Speaker 1: we've learned a lot today, haven't we? We've learned a lot.
[1:05:11] Speaker 1: that Xabi Alonso will use different techniques in order to
[1:05:15] Speaker 1: win games of football. We've learned that the Premier League
[1:05:17] Speaker 1: could be won by anyone at this stage and that
[1:05:20] Speaker 1: possession means nothing. And we've learned that Gabriel Martinelli is
[1:05:23] Speaker 1: not worth 70 million euros. Kaya Kynak, thank you.
[1:05:27] Speaker 2: Disagree.
[1:05:29] Speaker 1: You disagree with a thank you, me too.
[1:05:30] Speaker 2: Both things.
[1:05:31] Speaker 1: And Joe McKenzie, thank you.
[1:05:32] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[1:05:33] Speaker 1: Producer James, thank you. There he goes. And we will
[1:05:36] Speaker 1: be back, as I said, on Tuesday. I've got Tom
[1:05:38] Speaker 1: and Connor and Ruben. We'll talk about Man United then.
[1:05:41] Speaker 1: We'll talk about Liverpool as well. We'll talk about Newcastle.
[1:05:44] Speaker 1: We'll talk about all the other teams. And then we're
[1:05:45] Speaker 1: back later in the week on Thursday. John, you're returning.
[1:05:48] Speaker 1: I think we've got JPB that day and we've got
[1:05:50] Speaker 1: JJ Bull as well. So there you go. Plenty to
[1:05:52] Speaker 1: look forward to. But until then, farewell, stay safe and
[1:05:57] Speaker 1: hoard food like the government is telling you to.

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