# Chelsea sack Rosenior_ why America fears relegation _ Bodø_Glimt Sporting Director interview_(M4A_128K)

An episode of [Footbal Beyond the Pitch](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6821032841), 20 Oct 2026, 1 h 21 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/75863283/utf_8_q_chelsea_sack_rosenior_5f_why_america_fears_relegation_5f_utf_8_q_bod_c3_b8_5fglimt_sporting_direct_utf_8_q_or_interview_5f_m4a_5f128k_m4a.mp3

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beyond-the-pitch--7446870/support.

## Transcript

[0:03] Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Tifo Football Podcast. I'm Joe
[0:07] Speaker 1: Devine and today I'm delighted to be joined by John McKenzie.
[0:11] Speaker 2: Hello.
[0:12] Speaker 1: Now, John, it's a special treat for listeners at the
[0:14] Speaker 1: very end of today's podcast, but we'll come to that.
[0:18] Speaker 2: It's not a soft launch. It's a hard launch.
[0:21] Speaker 1: No, no, I think it's the softest launch you could
[0:23] Speaker 1: possibly find. Yeah, it's like softer than the softest cheese.
[0:25] Speaker 3: Okay.
[0:26] Speaker 1: You know, there we go.
[0:27] Speaker 4: It was pretty hard.
[0:28] Speaker 1: We're jumping the gun here because a very special debutante. See,
[0:32] Speaker 1: I can use French words as well. On the TIFO
[0:36] Speaker 1: football podcast. Now, she's the economics editor of the Times
[0:38] Speaker 1: of London. I've got to say the Times of London
[0:41] Speaker 1: when we're in this building, you understand. But we can
[0:44] Speaker 1: highly recommend diving into the back catalogue of her podcast,
[0:46] Speaker 1: Heroes and Humans of Football. It's Maureen Khan. Bonjour. Hello.
[0:50] Speaker 3: Merci, merci.
[0:51] Speaker 1: And also, Maureen was just told by Steve to stop
[0:54] Speaker 1: gesticulating with her hands. So that's why when we clapped,
[0:57] Speaker 1: she didn't clap herself. I'm sitting on my hands. Now,
[0:59] Speaker 1: what did we talk about on today's podcast? Well, it's
[1:01] Speaker 1: been a sad sack for Liam Resania, hasn't it? And Chelsea, right, Steve,
[1:06] Speaker 1: we talk about him specifically to begin with and his
[1:08] Speaker 1: future in the game.
[1:09] Speaker 2: I also enjoyed how you pronounced his name about four
[1:12] Speaker 2: different ways in this episode.
[1:13] Speaker 1: Well, I like to be consistent, John. I'm nothing if
[1:15] Speaker 1: not consistent. I'm trying to stick to what he said,
[1:17] Speaker 1: which was Resenia.
[1:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, you said Resenia then.
[1:19] Speaker 1: Did I say Resenia?
[1:20] Speaker 2: You said Resenia as well at some point.
[1:22] Speaker 1: I've done a few Resenias. That's right. Good, I like it.
[1:24] Speaker 4: Resenia as well.
[1:25] Speaker 5: Hmm?
[1:27] Speaker 1: Here's a question we never got to this when we
[1:29] Speaker 1: talked about Liam Resenier but when we first when he
[1:32] Speaker 1: first appeared on the scene Chelsea I did a Leroy
[1:35] Speaker 1: Resenier a couple of times by accident because that's the
[1:37] Speaker 1: name that lives in my head but I don't think
[1:38] Speaker 1: that will ever happen again I think Liam Resenier is
[1:41] Speaker 1: now firmly firmly in my.
[1:42] Speaker 4: Head yeah a small dose of patricide a.
[1:44] Speaker 1: Tiny a little a tiny bit of patricide there we
[1:46] Speaker 1: go a soft launch patricide we end up on birds
[1:49] Speaker 1: again and we ask if seagulls can extinguish things and
[1:52] Speaker 1: are they where are they nesting are they nesting creatures
[1:54] Speaker 1: I assume they nest somewhere They do nest, according to
[1:57] Speaker 1: the RSPB. Amazing how quickly I was able to answer
[1:59] Speaker 1: my own question there. Thanks, Steve. They do nest, according
[2:02] Speaker 1: to the RSPB, but we're unsure on their extinguishing capabilities.
[2:06] Speaker 1: We'll have to call the RSPB specifically for that. Now,
[2:08] Speaker 1: both Maureen and John use the word... Now, use the
[2:11] Speaker 1: word epiphenomenal. Epiphenomenal?
[2:15] Speaker 4: It gets worse every time.
[2:17] Speaker 1: Epiphenomenal.
[2:18] Speaker 2: Epiphenomenal.
[2:19] Speaker 1: That's what I said, epiphenomenal. You said epiphenomenal. Oh, I'm
[2:21] Speaker 1: saying epiph. Because it reads like epiphany. Right, epiphenomenal. So
[2:26] Speaker 1: they both use the word epiphenomenal and they both fail
[2:29] Speaker 1: to explain what it means. I believe this is what
[2:31] Speaker 1: vexes me, but then I could be something else, something epiphenomenal. Steve,
[2:35] Speaker 1: I can't make these jokes because I don't know what
[2:37] Speaker 1: the word means. I've never felt so stupid on the
[2:40] Speaker 1: TV football podcast.
[2:41] Speaker 2: It basically means correlation does not imply causality. That's what
[2:43] Speaker 2: it means.
[2:44] Speaker 1: The problem is, John, when I failed to understand it
[2:46] Speaker 1: the first time and then the second time, I inserted
[2:48] Speaker 1: a mental block in my head, which meant I now
[2:51] Speaker 1: seek to never understand it. I never will learn. Now,
[2:54] Speaker 1: what else did we talk about? Yes, we then move
[2:56] Speaker 1: on to Chelsea's ownership and their continuing role in all
[2:58] Speaker 1: of this situation. They've definitely made an impact. Marine goes on.
[3:01] Speaker 1: What was it like? 25-minute rant? Most of the show, yeah.
[3:03] Speaker 3: Most of the show.
[3:05] Speaker 4: Deep financial analysis, actually.
[3:07] Speaker 1: It was good, to be fair. I kind of hope
[3:08] Speaker 1: when I watch it in the edit that this is
[3:10] Speaker 1: a slow zoom, getting closer and closer and closer to
[3:13] Speaker 1: her eyes. We briefly speak about Leicester City. And incidentally,
[3:17] Speaker 1: for anyone, Leicester fans now, we're going to dedicate Ring
[3:21] Speaker 1: for Analysis this week to Rob Tanner's Inside Article on
[3:23] Speaker 1: Leicester City. So if you're interested in what's happened there,
[3:26] Speaker 1: why they've been relegated, check out that one. John takes
[3:29] Speaker 1: a terrible swing at soft launching his book now that's
[3:33] Speaker 1: the nice secret that happens right at the end of
[3:34] Speaker 1: the show at the time we didn't have any idea
[3:37] Speaker 1: what it was called but then if you listen all
[3:39] Speaker 1: the way to the very end it becomes harder it
[3:42] Speaker 1: becomes the launch gets harder as you go John's publishing
[3:46] Speaker 1: a book in August you want to stick around and
[3:48] Speaker 1: hear what the title of that is and then what
[3:50] Speaker 1: my title of it is which I think is better
[3:53] Speaker 1: what else we entertain the idea that Arsenal can outscore
[3:55] Speaker 1: Man City in the rest of this Premier League season
[3:57] Speaker 1: there you go that was quite fun How do you
[3:59] Speaker 1: say the word envoy? Or is it envoy? Or is
[4:02] Speaker 1: it the French word that Marine then said to make
[4:04] Speaker 1: me feel small and intellectually stupid? We discuss this in
[4:07] Speaker 1: a section where we analyse the idea of Italy potentially
[4:10] Speaker 1: being parachuted into the World Cup at Iran's expense. An
[4:13] Speaker 1: idea that seems so insane. Although when you read the news,
[4:16] Speaker 1: it does not seem that insane anymore. And then we
[4:19] Speaker 1: end with an interview with Bodo Glimpse's sporting director. So
[4:22] Speaker 1: stick around to listen to that towards the end of
[4:23] Speaker 1: the show.
[4:24] Speaker 4: He's going to be getting a call from Tom Boley soon.
[4:26] Speaker 1: You think so? Yeah. He's in. We need six of Chelsea.
[4:29] Speaker 4: We've soft-launched him.
[4:30] Speaker 1: How about that? It got harder towards the end of
[4:32] Speaker 1: the episode as well. What can you do? On Saturday,
[4:35] Speaker 1: the Ring for Analysis podcast that I talked about before
[4:37] Speaker 1: with John and I will be published. And there is
[4:39] Speaker 1: no live stream on Sunday this week. It's an FA
[4:42] Speaker 1: Cup Sunday. But we will be back again, releasing a
[4:44] Speaker 1: podcast next Tuesday with Ruben Pinder, JJ Ball and Steph Stafford-Bloor. Maureen,
[4:48] Speaker 1: did you enjoy your debut?
[4:50] Speaker 4: It was like therapy.
[4:51] Speaker 1: Was it really? Oh, that's good. You're leaving feeling better
[4:54] Speaker 1: than you did when you arrived.
[4:55] Speaker 4: Marginally.
[4:56] Speaker 6: Terrific.
[4:56] Speaker 4: I want to come back already.
[4:58] Speaker 1: There we go. All right. Enjoy the show. Well, where
[5:02] Speaker 1: else to begin, of course, than with the sad sacking
[5:06] Speaker 1: of Liam Resenia from Chelsea. No sooner, right, Steve, did
[5:10] Speaker 1: we speak about the future of Chelsea and Liam Resenia
[5:12] Speaker 1: on Tuesday's episode that he was sacked by Chelsea just
[5:15] Speaker 1: three months into what was meant to be a contract
[5:17] Speaker 1: running until 2032. It was after a 3-0 away defeat
[5:21] Speaker 1: to Brighton, saw Chelsea's hope of Champions League football next season,
[5:24] Speaker 1: all but extinguished by the soaring seagulls.
[5:27] Speaker 2: I think you're mixing your metaphors there, Steve.
[5:29] Speaker 5: Would that be the first time or it won't be
[5:31] Speaker 5: the last.
[5:32] Speaker 2: For sure? Seagulls don't extinguish things, do they?
[5:34] Speaker 1: Well, have you ever seen a fire in a seagull's home?
[5:37] Speaker 2: I haven't, no.
[5:38] Speaker 1: Well, that's because they all burn down.
[5:40] Speaker 2: What do they live in, seagulls? Do they live in nests?
[5:42] Speaker 2: I guess they do.
[5:43] Speaker 4: Plastic bags.
[5:44] Speaker 2: Plastic bags.
[5:45] Speaker 1: It would be quite on brand for them to live
[5:47] Speaker 1: in plastic bags, wouldn't it? With chips. With chips. For
[5:49] Speaker 1: every meal, yeah. I think some of them live on
[5:51] Speaker 1: rocky cliff faces, though.
[5:52] Speaker 2: I think so. But would you describe that as a nest?
[5:54] Speaker 2: I guess they must have some kind of nesting material.
[5:57] Speaker 1: We can't start two episodes in a row talking about birds.
[6:00] Speaker 1: My wife was attacked by a crow.
[6:01] Speaker 4: That was the image in my head.
[6:03] Speaker 1: It was serious. And someone messaged me afterwards to say,
[6:07] Speaker 1: I can't remember the name. Oh, Michelle Wolfe. You know
[6:09] Speaker 1: the comedian Michelle Wolfe? Someone sent me a tweet saying,
[6:12] Speaker 1: is Michelle Wolfe your wife? And I saw she had
[6:14] Speaker 1: been attacked by a crow the very same day. Was
[6:16] Speaker 1: it the same crow? Could it have been the same crow?
[6:19] Speaker 1: Crows are on a rampage. People in London better watch
[6:20] Speaker 1: out for these crows.
[6:20] Speaker 2: Something needs to be done about the crows, Joe.
[6:22] Speaker 1: Something has to be done about the crows, Mr. Speaker.
[6:24] Speaker 3: Mr.
[6:25] Speaker 4: Speaker.
[6:25] Speaker 3: Mr.
[6:25] Speaker 1: Speaker. Now, what was I saying? Oh, yes. I wanted
[6:28] Speaker 1: to start with Liam Rosenier. I want to go to
[6:30] Speaker 1: the quotes that he gave after the Brighton game first.
[6:34] Speaker 1: These are kind of instructive, I think, and what one
[6:37] Speaker 1: of his players said afterwards. So here's what he said.
[6:40] Speaker 1: in the post-match interview, he said, the performance in terms
[6:42] Speaker 1: of professionalism wasn't there. He told Sky Sports this. It
[6:46] Speaker 1: was a really, really difficult night, the most difficult night,
[6:48] Speaker 1: not even here at this magnificent football club, but in
[6:50] Speaker 1: my career. Some of the things I witnessed today, I
[6:53] Speaker 1: don't want to ever see again. If you're playing at
[6:56] Speaker 1: this elite football club or any football club, to even
[6:58] Speaker 1: be accused of throwing in the towel is unacceptable. That's
[7:00] Speaker 1: all I'm going to say. I'm hurting. I'm feeling numb.
[7:03] Speaker 1: That doesn't represent me. That doesn't represent the football club
[7:05] Speaker 1: in any way. That has to change, starting with the
[7:07] Speaker 1: FA Cup semi-final on Sunday. The problem is, I think,
[7:11] Speaker 1: it might have been the next day, was it Trevor
[7:13] Speaker 1: Chaliver who came out and said... The same night. The
[7:15] Speaker 1: same night to the same broadcaster who then said, oh,
[7:18] Speaker 1: I've lost that quote.
[7:19] Speaker 2: Where did I put that?
[7:19] Speaker 4: We ran our socks off. We were running. We just
[7:22] Speaker 4: kept running.
[7:23] Speaker 1: Yes. Essentially, he said that effort wasn't the problem, which,
[7:27] Speaker 1: do you agree with that?
[7:28] Speaker 4: Trevor is proper Chels.
[7:31] Speaker 1: Sure.
[7:32] Speaker 4: I don't think I remember him doing a post-match interview.
[7:37] Speaker 4: So I think the fact that it came from someone
[7:38] Speaker 4: like him.
[7:39] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[7:40] Speaker 4: Was quite a jarring contrast between the... And then now
[7:43] Speaker 4: we are living in the post-Rosinia moment. There is a
[7:45] Speaker 4: lot of bloodletting about the fact that they never respected
[7:47] Speaker 4: him and they never liked him. This is the classic cycle,
[7:50] Speaker 4: which I go through every six months, about how the
[7:52] Speaker 4: manager's brilliant and actually, well, now he's a supply teacher
[7:55] Speaker 4: and all of the kind of memes are coming out.
[7:57] Speaker 4: But I think we can talk about... There was something
[8:00] Speaker 4: special about Rosinia because he was memed so early on.
[8:03] Speaker 1: Sure.
[8:04] Speaker 4: And that was always just part of the thing. And
[8:07] Speaker 4: I was thinking about the generational difference between managing younger
[8:10] Speaker 4: players and what it means to manage younger players who
[8:13] Speaker 4: are basically perennially online. So the memes are not just
[8:17] Speaker 4: sort of, they're not, epiphenomenal sure they're actually quite important
[8:21] Speaker 4: because I actually I think the way that she.
[8:22] Speaker 1: Said she was going to use that I've already explained
[8:24] Speaker 1: I don't know what that means Marie what does it
[8:26] Speaker 1: mean epi what did you say yeah.
[8:29] Speaker 4: Actually I think it has a deep philosophical meaning of
[8:31] Speaker 4: of the of something which is like form without substance
[8:34] Speaker 4: as it doesn't even know it basically doesn't really matter
[8:36] Speaker 4: right the point is that Rossini wasn't the point but
[8:39] Speaker 4: some of the things about Rossini I think were the
[8:41] Speaker 4: point and I think the fact that he was linked
[8:43] Speaker 4: in Liam and that he was always a kind of
[8:44] Speaker 4: joke on the internet the players just saw it all
[8:46] Speaker 4: the time I think the younger players just would have
[8:48] Speaker 4: just seen their algorithms always showing the.
[8:50] Speaker 1: Gaffer as a joke as opposed to in the past
[8:52] Speaker 1: when like you know players from the 90s might not
[8:54] Speaker 1: have seen these jokes about the manager maybe would only
[8:56] Speaker 1: heard them in the pub or whatever now it's like
[8:58] Speaker 1: a lot more prevalent yeah they would.
[8:59] Speaker 4: Have just the only time Liam would have been on
[9:02] Speaker 4: your Instagram feed or on your TikTok is someone taking
[9:04] Speaker 4: the mick out of him and now all of the
[9:07] Speaker 4: you know the bloodletting is happening and he's a supply
[9:09] Speaker 4: teacher and he was a joke and this awful I
[9:12] Speaker 4: think Miguel Delaney had a little quip in a report
[9:14] Speaker 4: about the fact that He took his glasses off once
[9:16] Speaker 4: at training and they were taking the mick out of him.
[9:19] Speaker 4: That touch, that awful touch he did against Arsenal when
[9:21] Speaker 4: he tried to bring the ball down.
[9:22] Speaker 1: Oh no, that was so bad.
[9:24] Speaker 4: When Estabal, when then he then revealed that Estabal asked him,
[9:27] Speaker 4: did you actually ever play football? I mean, all of
[9:31] Speaker 4: it sort of just sort of adds up. And I'm like,
[9:33] Speaker 4: these Gen Z, Gen Alpha sometimes players. I mean, Steve-O's 17,
[9:38] Speaker 4: 18 years old.
[9:39] Speaker 1: When does Gen Alpha start?
[9:40] Speaker 4: I think it started... I think it started.
[9:42] Speaker 1: Has it started? No, no, it started, but has it
[9:44] Speaker 1: started for adults?
[9:45] Speaker 4: Oh, have they matured? Yeah, Max Dahlman's definitely jumped.
[9:48] Speaker 3: 2010, apparently.
[9:49] Speaker 1: So they had to be born in 2010? Yeah, Max Dahlman, 16.
[9:52] Speaker 1: Oh my God, was he born in 2010? Yeah, he's 16.
[9:54] Speaker 1: That's disgusting.
[9:56] Speaker 4: And 2009 actually yeah wow.
[9:58] Speaker 1: Okay fine right so yeah some of the some of
[10:00] Speaker 1: them are yeah they.
[10:01] Speaker 4: Are truly the brain they are the brain generation yeah
[10:04] Speaker 4: and i think having a manager that's a meme is
[10:06] Speaker 4: actually quite problematic with a very young squad yeah.
[10:09] Speaker 2: Do you remember graham potter when he was was that
[10:11] Speaker 2: west ham when he was going towards the end there
[10:13] Speaker 2: and then people were just face-swapping him with random people.
[10:17] Speaker 4: It happened a little bit at Chelsea. He had a
[10:18] Speaker 4: little bit of a... And with Graham Potter, it mattered
[10:20] Speaker 4: because he had a sort of glow-up like two months in.
[10:23] Speaker 4: He suddenly got a little fade.
[10:24] Speaker 2: And he said f * * * ing at one point.
[10:25] Speaker 1: Yeah. A little puffer vest on.
[10:29] Speaker 4: And the lads were like, oh, look, manager's looking pretty,
[10:32] Speaker 4: you know, he's like a six now.
[10:33] Speaker 1: You guys can't wait for my glow-up. It's coming one day.
[10:35] Speaker 1: I swear to God.
[10:36] Speaker 4: I'm going to be responsible for it.
[10:37] Speaker 1: I hope so. I've been promising it for many years,
[10:40] Speaker 1: but actually it just keeps getting worse.
[10:41] Speaker 2: What form will this glow-up take?
[10:43] Speaker 1: It could be a blow-up. I think I've misunderstood. I'm
[10:48] Speaker 1: tacking on mass in the mornings. John, we never want
[10:51] Speaker 1: to say about players that they downed tools. We never
[10:55] Speaker 1: want to say that. But it does seem as though
[10:57] Speaker 1: they were quite shit for the last six or seven games.
[11:00] Speaker 1: I mean, there's this sort of common thing going around that,
[11:03] Speaker 1: you know, after Bradley Buckler scored in that PSG game
[11:07] Speaker 1: that Chelsea players kind of gave up for the rest
[11:09] Speaker 1: of the season. I mean, of their performances... I actually,
[11:12] Speaker 1: we got some pelters for it on Tuesday. I thought
[11:13] Speaker 1: they were pretty good against Man United. I think they
[11:15] Speaker 1: were a little, they were sloppy. They definitely by no
[11:18] Speaker 1: means had a great performance, but they were unlucky not
[11:20] Speaker 1: to get a result out of it. What do you
[11:22] Speaker 1: think about them?
[11:23] Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad we're talking about epiphenomena because I think
[11:26] Speaker 2: there's a lot of it.
[11:27] Speaker 1: There's two of them, Steve.
[11:28] Speaker 2: I know. There's a lot of it that goes on, right?
[11:31] Speaker 2: Essentially what happens is that when a big event like
[11:34] Speaker 2: this happens, we then grasp around for, like, evidence to
[11:38] Speaker 2: support whatever claims we want to make about things, right?
[11:41] Speaker 2: So whenever.
[11:41] Speaker 1: The truth changes.
[11:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned it before, like, when he
[11:45] Speaker 2: comes in, everyone's like, this is exciting. This is a
[11:48] Speaker 2: new young manager. A new young black manager, it's worth saying,
[11:50] Speaker 2: as well, which I think plays into that. Or at
[11:54] Speaker 2: least plays into the way that it's unfolded. And then,
[11:57] Speaker 2: you know, we're, what, three months later? And it's like, oh,
[11:59] Speaker 2: this is the worst decision that Chelsea have ever made.
[12:02] Speaker 2: The players, you know, he's lost the players. Everything's bad.
[12:04] Speaker 2: Nothing was good.
[12:06] Speaker 1: And.
[12:06] Speaker 2: The reality is always more complex than that. And a
[12:10] Speaker 2: lot of the things that we ascribe causality to often
[12:14] Speaker 2: aren't there, right? And it's very easy to talk about
[12:17] Speaker 2: downing tools. It's easy to talk about the players not
[12:19] Speaker 2: wanting it. But all we're basing that on a lot
[12:21] Speaker 2: of the time is, well, the results have been bad.
[12:23] Speaker 2: So there must be something that explains why that must
[12:25] Speaker 2: be the case.
[12:25] Speaker 1: And a little of the performances have looked.
[12:27] Speaker 2: Like Yeah, and I don't doubt that this stuff happens, right?
[12:32] Speaker 1: Maybe not consciously.
[12:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think at the point where we're speaking,
[12:38] Speaker 2: Chelsea had come off like a horrible run. Obviously, they'd
[12:42] Speaker 2: lost way more than they'd lost. I mean, it was 19-12,
[12:47] Speaker 2: the stat that was being bandied around. I don't even
[12:48] Speaker 2: know what the stat was.
[12:51] Speaker 4: The last time that we've gone this long without scoring
[12:53] Speaker 4: a goal was 19-12. My favourite stat is the last
[12:56] Speaker 4: time we scored a goal the Strait of Hormuz was
[12:58] Speaker 4: still open.
[12:59] Speaker 1: Good Lord.
[12:59] Speaker 4: Which in my world was a long time ago.
[13:01] Speaker 1: It feels like a long time ago.
[13:03] Speaker 4: I actually think, so I was at the PSG game.
[13:05] Speaker 4: I think the tipping point thing is quite real because
[13:08] Speaker 4: it was so humiliating to watch. I had a great seat.
[13:13] Speaker 4: I was sitting behind the dugout.
[13:14] Speaker 2: This is the second fixture, right?
[13:16] Speaker 1: This is the second leg.
[13:17] Speaker 4: You can see me behind Liam Rossini being performatively managerial.
[13:21] Speaker 1: Wait, you were being performatively managerial? No, he's being performatively managerial.
[13:24] Speaker 4: And then there's just me just like, on the verge of.
[13:27] Speaker 1: Tears being real managerial I looked.
[13:30] Speaker 4: Quite managerial it was so bad the level the chasm
[13:39] Speaker 4: between the two sides because in the first leg for
[13:42] Speaker 4: 60 minutes people were hyped about that game we competed
[13:44] Speaker 4: and then it was a bit like the second half
[13:46] Speaker 4: of PSG when the other team just decides that they're
[13:49] Speaker 4: just going to play to their level. Chelsea have nothing.
[13:53] Speaker 4: That was the game at half-time where droves of people
[13:55] Speaker 4: were leaving. And then we ended up assigning more causality
[14:00] Speaker 4: to it because that's when Enzo Fernanda comes out and
[14:02] Speaker 4: starts playing Real Madrid. That's when Cucurella makes his comments.
[14:04] Speaker 4: So I think that was quite a chastening, neuralgic moment
[14:09] Speaker 4: for the fans and for those players on the pitch
[14:11] Speaker 4: and definitely for Rossini as well. So I think there
[14:15] Speaker 4: was a slight momentum shift. Because between a first leg
[14:17] Speaker 4: and a second leg, it just shouldn't be that much
[14:19] Speaker 4: of a gap.
[14:20] Speaker 3: Do you think we've f * * * ed it
[14:21] Speaker 3: in football.
[14:21] Speaker 2: In the sense that I feel like in the past
[14:24] Speaker 2: you would be able to have a bad result or
[14:25] Speaker 2: like even just go through a... a bad moment, as
[14:28] Speaker 2: the managers say these days. I feel like at the
[14:30] Speaker 2: top level now, you hit that patch and that's it,
[14:33] Speaker 2: you're done. And it just seems.
[14:34] Speaker 1: I don't know if Liam Resenia is really the best
[14:36] Speaker 1: example of that, though, because it's felt like, and in fact,
[14:40] Speaker 1: Liam Toomey even, I think the headline of one of
[14:41] Speaker 1: Liam's pieces in The Athletic was like, he's been doomed
[14:44] Speaker 1: from the start, right? It felt very much like from
[14:46] Speaker 1: the beginning. We're going to come on to talk about
[14:48] Speaker 1: the Bluko element of this as well. And I think
[14:50] Speaker 1: it's worth emphasising at this point that we've started talking
[14:53] Speaker 1: about Liam Resenia, he is far from like the main
[14:56] Speaker 1: person at fault i think for for for this situation
[15:00] Speaker 1: but but i'm not certain that he's a great example
[15:02] Speaker 1: of this at.
[15:02] Speaker 2: The point that first psg game happens they've only lost
[15:06] Speaker 2: three games and they're all against arsenal sure and it's
[15:08] Speaker 2: like on the one hand sure right you expect you
[15:11] Speaker 2: want to compete in those games and the fans will
[15:13] Speaker 2: feel hard done by not doing better and yeah you
[15:16] Speaker 2: know it's a it's a it is a london derby
[15:18] Speaker 2: etc etc but at the same time like What expectations
[15:22] Speaker 2: are there for a coach?
[15:23] Speaker 1: Can you not invert what you were saying before, though,
[15:25] Speaker 1: that things can be very results biased, right? Can they
[15:27] Speaker 1: not be results biased in a positive way? Because it's
[15:29] Speaker 1: clear from reading all of these kind of inside Chelsea
[15:32] Speaker 1: pieces this morning that the players seem to lack a
[15:36] Speaker 1: level of respect for him or really see him as
[15:38] Speaker 1: a manager. We talked on Tuesday's podcast about the notion
[15:41] Speaker 1: that perhaps one of the reasons that he was doomed
[15:43] Speaker 1: from the start is because he was a company man
[15:45] Speaker 1: that came from Strasbourg that was Blueco's appointee at a
[15:49] Speaker 1: time where the players are, you know, seemingly some of
[15:52] Speaker 1: them are questioning the future of the business model. So,
[15:56] Speaker 1: I mean, could you not say that there were a
[15:58] Speaker 1: lot of underlying issues that as soon as we hit
[16:01] Speaker 1: a bump in the road with Chelsea, this was going
[16:04] Speaker 1: to happen?
[16:04] Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess the point I'm making more is just
[16:08] Speaker 2: maybe it's the players that have reached that point now
[16:10] Speaker 2: where the expectation is as soon as because there's there's
[16:13] Speaker 2: other examples I can think of where where this seemed
[16:16] Speaker 2: seemed to have happened where where coaches have been doing
[16:18] Speaker 2: very well but as soon as one like I think
[16:20] Speaker 2: Xabi Alonso at Real Madrid is one we've talked about
[16:22] Speaker 2: before right where actually the results were pretty good and
[16:25] Speaker 2: it almost got to a point where as soon as
[16:27] Speaker 2: one thing happened it was like the players had oh
[16:29] Speaker 2: well it's over now yeah or it was almost like
[16:31] Speaker 2: we don't like this guy so we're going to use
[16:33] Speaker 2: this as a we're now going to use this as
[16:35] Speaker 2: a as a sort of catalyst point for us to
[16:37] Speaker 2: then I mean.
[16:37] Speaker 4: Thomas Frank had a first two months, good two months,
[16:41] Speaker 4: in charge of Tottenham. I know all my Tottenham fans
[16:42] Speaker 4: were like, none of this is real.
[16:45] Speaker 1: They were right.
[16:47] Speaker 4: I like my idea that this was the first time
[16:49] Speaker 4: that memes have killed the manager off.
[16:51] Speaker 1: He's the first meme death manager.
[16:53] Speaker 4: Yeah, death by memes.
[16:55] Speaker 1: What were the Thomas Frank memes, though? Oh, he didn't
[16:58] Speaker 1: have any.
[16:59] Speaker 4: Rossini was the first manager to be killed off by memes.
[17:01] Speaker 4: I mean, the protecting of the ball, LinkedIn.
[17:03] Speaker 2: Liam, the in-betweeners, comparisons.
[17:05] Speaker 4: Manage was the one, wasn't it? Manage, yeah. Arteta is
[17:10] Speaker 4: getting there to the point of being mean to him.
[17:12] Speaker 2: The thing with Arteta is that he has results backing
[17:14] Speaker 2: him up. That's almost what I mean by epiphenomenon. It's
[17:17] Speaker 2: like if it works, it works. And if it doesn't,
[17:19] Speaker 2: it doesn't.
[17:19] Speaker 4: It's catching on.
[17:20] Speaker 1: It's a great phrase, right?
[17:22] Speaker 4: It's a great phrase.
[17:23] Speaker 2: Because I believe... I like our podcast to be accessible, guys.
[17:27] Speaker 2: I believe it's... I stand for the people. It's like
[17:29] Speaker 2: a psychology word, right? She thinks, he believes. No one
[17:34] Speaker 2: really knows what this word means. No, you experience phenomena, right?
[17:38] Speaker 2: They come in, you experience things. And then some things will...
[17:41] Speaker 2: attend those phenomena, which have got nothing to do with it.
[17:44] Speaker 4: He actually did more work into this. I just threw
[17:46] Speaker 4: it out there because this was a fun one.
[17:48] Speaker 2: I did a PhD in, like, human subjectivity, right? So
[17:51] Speaker 2: we would talk about this stuff all the time.
[17:52] Speaker 1: According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, epiphyllum phenomenal refers to a
[17:57] Speaker 1: secondary phenomenon by product or symptom that occurs alongside a
[18:01] Speaker 1: primary process but has no casual influence on it in philosophy.
[18:03] Speaker 1: It's not causal. I can't read, guys. Give me a
[18:07] Speaker 1: f * * * ing break. Describes mental states like
[18:09] Speaker 1: thoughts or pains. It's being caused by physical brain activity. Wow,
[18:12] Speaker 1: I've experienced this. I'm experiencing this now. While the mental
[18:16] Speaker 1: state themselves cause no physical actions, I still don't understand
[18:19] Speaker 1: what it means.
[18:20] Speaker 2: It's basically just saying sometimes you'll experience things in the
[18:22] Speaker 2: world in conjunction with an actual bodily process.
[18:25] Speaker 1: Can you put it in an example of my life? Byproduct.
[18:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's basically a byproduct. So there's no causal link
[18:31] Speaker 2: between you, I don't know, you... You feel mental anguish, right?
[18:36] Speaker 1: Yes.
[18:37] Speaker 2: And you think it's caused by a brain process.
[18:40] Speaker 1: I think it's caused by you.
[18:41] Speaker 2: But it's not actually caused by that brain process. It's
[18:43] Speaker 2: simply something that always occurs at the same time as
[18:45] Speaker 2: that brain process.
[18:46] Speaker 4: So it literally means what it means. Phenomena and then.
[18:49] Speaker 2: Epi, secondary. Epi means just secondary, yeah.
[18:50] Speaker 1: I don't know what they're talking about.
[18:52] Speaker 2: But the point is that there's so much stuff that
[18:54] Speaker 2: we're talking about here where it always happens in this way.
[18:57] Speaker 2: And it always seems to follow that these things are linked.
[19:00] Speaker 2: But there's no clear sense that they actually are linked.
[19:03] Speaker 2: And that's sort of what I'm interested in.
[19:05] Speaker 4: So your transition is, what's the real thing?
[19:08] Speaker 1: What's the real thing?
[19:09] Speaker 2: And the real thing is, yeah.
[19:10] Speaker 1: Well, no, but actually, I'm not ready to transition to
[19:13] Speaker 1: Blu-ray yet. Guys, one more thing on Virginia before, and
[19:18] Speaker 1: then I'll use your segue. I want to know about,
[19:21] Speaker 1: you know, we just mentioned that he's been kind of
[19:23] Speaker 1: memed to death here. What's the impact on his reputation?
[19:27] Speaker 1: What do you think his future will hold? I mean,
[19:28] Speaker 1: I've heard different opinions on this so far. Some people
[19:32] Speaker 1: think that this was a kind of good opportunity for
[19:34] Speaker 1: him and that it hasn't done too much damage to
[19:37] Speaker 1: his reputation because it's mainly Chelsea that come out of
[19:39] Speaker 1: the story badly. Others think, well, he's memed himself and
[19:43] Speaker 1: it's going to be hard for him to be taken seriously.
[19:45] Speaker 1: Owners might worry that their group of players won't respect him.
[19:49] Speaker 4: In the graveyard of ex-Chelsea managers doesn't look too badly
[19:52] Speaker 4: Tuchel Pochettino Maresca's out here on Instagram posting or farming
[19:56] Speaker 4: photos of himself in the Maldives or whatever it is.
[19:59] Speaker 1: So but none of them were treated as brutally as
[20:01] Speaker 1: he was no I would.
[20:02] Speaker 4: Actually I thought him being in France was probably good
[20:05] Speaker 4: for him he was kind of out of the spotlight
[20:07] Speaker 4: after Hull I would probably you know if there are
[20:09] Speaker 4: teams in Ligue 1 who would want someone who knows
[20:12] Speaker 4: the layout of the French League. I would think he'd
[20:16] Speaker 4: do well if he just left England for a while again.
[20:18] Speaker 1: I like that idea. I often think about that when
[20:20] Speaker 1: I go to the cinema to watch foreign movies.
[20:23] Speaker 4: The escapism.
[20:24] Speaker 1: The escapism, but also I think these actors could be shit.
[20:27] Speaker 1: If I was from the country where they were from
[20:29] Speaker 1: and I could understand their language... I might think, oh,
[20:32] Speaker 1: they're not very good. But because I don't, I'm like,
[20:33] Speaker 1: they're incredible. They're the best actors I've ever seen.
[20:35] Speaker 2: There's a fine line, isn't there, between acting and just
[20:37] Speaker 2: not being able to.
[20:38] Speaker 1: Speak the language. Just reading what they're saying.
[20:40] Speaker 2: It sounds great. It's fantastic. They're acting Finnish when they're
[20:43] Speaker 2: watching a Scandi noir drama.
[20:44] Speaker 1: Incredible.
[20:45] Speaker 4: It's got a French-ish name.
[20:46] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
[20:47] Speaker 4: Rosenieu.
[20:48] Speaker 1: Rosenieu, yeah.
[20:49] Speaker 7: Liamme.
[20:50] Speaker 1: What do you think? Where should he go? What should
[20:52] Speaker 1: he do?
[20:52] Speaker 6: I don't know.
[20:53] Speaker 2: We've just been talking about how essentially what he's been
[20:56] Speaker 2: done by is the memes, right?
[20:58] Speaker 1: Sure.
[20:59] Speaker 2: And how do you get away from that stuff and...
[21:01] Speaker 2: I think that's the tricky thing, right? He's probably not
[21:05] Speaker 2: going to be able to go to a big club.
[21:06] Speaker 1: He needs to level.
[21:07] Speaker 4: Up his memes as like some sophisticated, mysterious francophone dude
[21:11] Speaker 4: from the South.
[21:12] Speaker 1: Go through a second glove, maybe.
[21:14] Speaker 4: Yeah, just rejuvenate himself.
[21:15] Speaker 1: Could do it, yeah.
[21:16] Speaker 4: Henry Winter was talking this morning about the fact that
[21:18] Speaker 4: the FA should take him in because he's somebody that
[21:20] Speaker 4: is a good kind of, you know, as a young
[21:22] Speaker 4: black British manager, someone should be cultivated by the FA
[21:25] Speaker 4: and they should take him in. I don't think he
[21:27] Speaker 4: will suffer reputationally. I mean, weirdly enough, the Brighton fans
[21:30] Speaker 4: were singing. he's one of our own when the Chelsea
[21:33] Speaker 4: fans were saying something not so nice about Liam. So
[21:37] Speaker 4: I think there's actually much more goodwill. And if you
[21:40] Speaker 4: can embrace them, the thing is, you always embrace the meme.
[21:43] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[21:44] Speaker 4: Adopt it as part of your personality.
[21:46] Speaker 1: Wish someone would do a meme about me. That'd be nice.
[21:48] Speaker 4: Okay.
[21:50] Speaker 1: So what is real? Let's talk about Blue Coat now.
[21:54] Speaker 1: So this is from Liam Toomey, athletic Chelsea writer. This
[21:57] Speaker 1: is from one of his pieces this week. He said,
[21:59] Speaker 1: last week, Co-owner Beda Degbali said 18 months of seeing
[22:04] Speaker 1: Resenia up close at Strasbourg meant that Chelsea, quote, knew
[22:07] Speaker 1: what they were getting. How could the hierarchy not have
[22:10] Speaker 1: foreseen how this would play out? The notion that a
[22:13] Speaker 1: six-and-a-half-year contract could ever bestow him with the authority that
[22:16] Speaker 1: experience and achievement could not seemed unconvincing at the time
[22:19] Speaker 1: and appears utterly ridiculous now. How much of a mistake
[22:25] Speaker 1: do you think it was for them to appoint him
[22:27] Speaker 1: in the first place? Or do you think they put
[22:28] Speaker 1: him in a situation that was... Unturnable for him and
[22:31] Speaker 1: or how do you feel the ownership is doing right now?
[22:35] Speaker 1: I've got quite a lot of thoughts about this. Okay, go.
[22:38] Speaker 4: In a way, is it a mistake? No, because it's
[22:40] Speaker 4: completely consistent with what I think their philosophy is, which
[22:43] Speaker 4: has been on record by some of the owners, that managers,
[22:46] Speaker 4: coaches are not variables that are very important for performances
[22:50] Speaker 4: or outcomes. Philosophically, the role of a manager, head coach,
[22:55] Speaker 4: some technocrat that runs training, isn't the thing that's going
[22:57] Speaker 4: to determine the success of your football club. Because of
[23:00] Speaker 4: the way that our American owners think about what the
[23:03] Speaker 4: correlation is between management, coaching, and outcomes. I think Jose Feliciano,
[23:08] Speaker 4: who's like the number two of Eguali, he's the one
[23:11] Speaker 4: that's the other partner. And Clearlake has said, actually, we
[23:13] Speaker 4: just don't think that this is an important factor in
[23:17] Speaker 4: determining how well Chelsea are going to do on the pitch.
[23:19] Speaker 4: So they don't philosophically believe that managers are important. So,
[23:22] Speaker 4: of course, you're going to appoint someone like Rossini. It
[23:24] Speaker 4: is consistent with their philosophy.
[23:26] Speaker 1: Is that because, like, with American sports, you have the
[23:29] Speaker 1: coaches sort of, like, you know, underneath the.
[23:32] Speaker 4: General manager who's more important? Depending on which, let's say,
[23:35] Speaker 4: American football, my other football, you have general managers, you
[23:39] Speaker 4: have a head coach, but then you have an offensive coach,
[23:40] Speaker 4: you have a team of offensive coaches.
[23:41] Speaker 1: You have the whole front office.
[23:42] Speaker 4: You have a team of defensive coaches. Exactly. You've got
[23:44] Speaker 4: the whole... And what do we have at Chelsea? We
[23:47] Speaker 4: have five sporting directors.
[23:48] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[23:49] Speaker 4: And so traditionally the sporting director job or the CEO
[23:52] Speaker 4: job is probably the intermediary between the club's hierarchy and
[23:55] Speaker 4: the manager. I think most coaches in modern day football
[23:57] Speaker 4: can understand that there is a person, a point person
[24:00] Speaker 4: that's their link. Liam's got five. Maresca had five to
[24:04] Speaker 4: deal with. Pochettino did. Maresca and Pochettino both decided they
[24:07] Speaker 4: didn't want to deal with these five other dudes who
[24:09] Speaker 4: aren't going to lose their jobs, according to Liam Toomey's
[24:12] Speaker 4: reporting and everything else that we've been hearing this morning.
[24:14] Speaker 4: So the frustration, and I think, so I was at
[24:17] Speaker 4: the protest on Saturday at United.
[24:19] Speaker 1: Can you tell us what the protest was for as well?
[24:22] Speaker 4: The protest was, so we as a fan base, and
[24:25] Speaker 4: I've been a Chelsea fan for longer than I can admit,
[24:28] Speaker 4: we're not a protesting fan base. I think this might
[24:31] Speaker 4: just be something about big Premier League clubs with big
[24:33] Speaker 4: fan bases. We just don't protest. The idea that the
[24:35] Speaker 4: Chelsea fans brought down the Super League, it was basically
[24:37] Speaker 4: an inorganic movement of people that just happened to be
[24:40] Speaker 4: outside Stamford Bridge and it became a moment, but it
[24:42] Speaker 4: wasn't organised. This is the first time I can remember
[24:45] Speaker 4: as a fan that we've decided as a very fractured
[24:49] Speaker 4: fan base with lots of internecine fighting that Clearlake need
[24:52] Speaker 4: to be sent a message or Blueco need to be
[24:54] Speaker 4: sent a message. Clearlake is the private equity company that
[24:57] Speaker 4: is the main investors of the club. Todd Bowley is
[24:59] Speaker 4: part of something else, but he's the chairman. He took
[25:01] Speaker 4: their money. That's the consortium they call Blueco. And it
[25:04] Speaker 4: was just to send a message to these very aloof
[25:08] Speaker 4: owners of which never communicate with us. The only time
[25:11] Speaker 4: they communicated with us is actually in the statement the
[25:14] Speaker 4: club statement for a senior's sacking, which they say they're
[25:16] Speaker 4: going to take a point of reflection, about all of
[25:20] Speaker 4: these things, the philosophy, the financing, the management of the players,
[25:23] Speaker 4: the idea that you can build a squad of young
[25:26] Speaker 4: players and it will come good over time, the fact
[25:28] Speaker 4: that actually we're just going to flip players, we're going
[25:30] Speaker 4: to flip players from the academy, we're not going to
[25:32] Speaker 4: send them out on loan. What was really important, actually,
[25:35] Speaker 4: the thing I thought got Chelsea fans out the most
[25:38] Speaker 4: was that 40 or 50 Strasbourg fans flew over from France.
[25:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's cool, huh?
[25:42] Speaker 4: To lead the protest. Now, they're French, so they love protesting.
[25:44] Speaker 4: But they've been doing this for two years because they're
[25:46] Speaker 4: our feeder club. We've basically taken a very storied brand, Strasbourg,
[25:50] Speaker 4: proper place, proper city, proper team, and decided that we're
[25:53] Speaker 4: going to farm them out. So, Rossini was there. Now,
[25:55] Speaker 4: Gary O'Neill is there. We take their players when we
[25:58] Speaker 4: need them because we need them. You know, I think
[26:00] Speaker 4: the entire philosophy of how Americans see British football, European football,
[26:06] Speaker 4: From my experience, because my day job is talking to
[26:08] Speaker 4: people a lot in the finance world, it's just an
[26:10] Speaker 4: incredible degree of arrogance that Europeans have these brands which
[26:14] Speaker 4: are undervalued. They don't understand their business model and they
[26:17] Speaker 4: don't know how to get enough money out of them.
[26:18] Speaker 4: These are not football clubs. They are IP brands. They're
[26:20] Speaker 4: merchandising franchises. They're global brands. And we're going to talk
[26:25] Speaker 4: a little bit later about what really worries them about
[26:27] Speaker 4: the English business model relegation. But they just think that
[26:31] Speaker 4: everyone's been doing this really wrong for a long time.
[26:33] Speaker 4: So we're going to come in with our superior financial
[26:35] Speaker 4: brains and we're going to make so much money because
[26:37] Speaker 4: you guys, you Europeans, you just don't understand capitalism. You
[26:40] Speaker 4: definitely don't understand finance and you really don't understand sport either.
[26:43] Speaker 4: So my frustration is just the deep arrogance of these
[26:47] Speaker 4: dudes who've come along thinking we've been doing it wrong
[26:49] Speaker 4: for so long because look how much American football teams
[26:52] Speaker 4: are worth. Look how much baseball teams are worth. You
[26:54] Speaker 4: guys are undervalued. You're cheap. You're distressed assets. Chelsea was
[26:57] Speaker 4: a distressed asset because it was bought... from the government
[26:59] Speaker 4: after Abramovich's sanctioning. And we're going to show you how
[27:03] Speaker 4: it's done. And, you know, the other parallel I have
[27:05] Speaker 4: in my day job is I have to think about
[27:07] Speaker 4: governments a lot. It's a bit like Labour come in.
[27:09] Speaker 4: They thought the Tories were uniquely incompetent. All it's going
[27:12] Speaker 4: to take is some sensible people. And we're going to
[27:14] Speaker 4: do this really well. It's actually much harder than it looks.
[27:17] Speaker 4: It's much harder than it looks. And now we're four
[27:19] Speaker 4: years in and I still get the stuff from behind
[27:21] Speaker 4: the scenes. You know, we came in and we didn't
[27:23] Speaker 4: realise that a brand which was going to be sanctioned
[27:25] Speaker 4: and la la. I'm like, you did, because George Osborne
[27:27] Speaker 4: was part of your consortium. You lobbied the British government.
[27:30] Speaker 4: You were working with British banks. You knew the situation,
[27:32] Speaker 4: the idea that you came in and everyone got sanctioned
[27:34] Speaker 4: so there was no one left, so Todd had to
[27:36] Speaker 4: become the chairman. I'm sorry, you should have planned for this.
[27:38] Speaker 4: Bowley wanted to buy a Premier League team in 2019.
[27:40] Speaker 4: You've had three years to think about it. I think
[27:42] Speaker 4: the deep level of incompetence, unpreparedness, the fact that nobody
[27:46] Speaker 4: on the board is a football person, the fact that
[27:48] Speaker 4: football people don't even matter in their world. You don't
[27:51] Speaker 4: need to have any experience because everyone who's tainted with
[27:53] Speaker 4: European football is already doing it wrong in their mind.
[27:56] Speaker 4: That's why you bring in these other blokes who all
[27:58] Speaker 4: look and they all wear the same finance vests and
[28:00] Speaker 4: they all have their gilets on and they all have
[28:02] Speaker 4: got the skin fade. They all look the same. They
[28:03] Speaker 4: are identical people. And that is just... That is my deep,
[28:08] Speaker 4: deep frustration with what's happening. And it is a... It's
[28:11] Speaker 4: a bigger thing about what American presence in European football means.
[28:14] Speaker 4: And Chelsea have become, you know, the apex of this
[28:17] Speaker 4: terrible experiment, as far as I can see.
[28:19] Speaker 1: You could have just said you hadn't thought about it.
[28:20] Speaker 3: Yes.
[28:21] Speaker 1: That would have been fine.
[28:23] Speaker 2: I think that's a repeating problem with owners in football
[28:27] Speaker 2: now as well, that they are treating football clubs as,
[28:30] Speaker 2: as you say, distressed assets or at least opportunities to
[28:33] Speaker 2: like 10x the value because they're not being run properly.
[28:36] Speaker 2: But And I think it's really fascinating because they then
[28:39] Speaker 2: apply market logics to football and it doesn't appear to work, right?
[28:42] Speaker 2: It's like, for example, with Chelsea, it's kind of like,
[28:45] Speaker 2: as long as we invest money, those assets will mature. Well,
[28:50] Speaker 2: we know that that's not the case, right? Because in football,
[28:52] Speaker 2: young players only mature if they're playing well. And so
[28:56] Speaker 2: your assets are only going to accrue value if they're
[28:59] Speaker 2: playing well and they're not. And so now they have
[29:01] Speaker 2: a squad full of players who you're like, where are
[29:03] Speaker 2: they going to make any money back from what they're...
[29:07] Speaker 2: investing in they're not going to do that it just
[29:09] Speaker 2: seems like the cycle just continues with these these guys
[29:12] Speaker 2: coming in from elsewhere with no knowledge of the football
[29:14] Speaker 2: industry just being like if you apply pure market logics
[29:17] Speaker 2: to this as though when you're investing money it will
[29:20] Speaker 2: have a linear trajectory towards like increasing in value and Chelsea.
[29:25] Speaker 4: Has been the paradigmatic example of the two extremes yeah
[29:29] Speaker 4: we were the plate we were the play thing of
[29:30] Speaker 4: a billionaire yeah and now we've become the most extreme
[29:33] Speaker 4: example of how things like private credit, private equity, the
[29:36] Speaker 4: financial capitalism that sport has become. We've experienced both sides.
[29:40] Speaker 1: It's two things that really suck.
[29:42] Speaker 4: Yes, but from the fan's perspective, being the plaything of
[29:45] Speaker 4: a sovereign wealth fund or a billionaire ain't too bad
[29:48] Speaker 4: because they're using you to sports wash. They're using you
[29:50] Speaker 4: because you're a nice thing to have. they're hiring things like,
[29:53] Speaker 4: so what does Abramovich do? He goes and hires Peter Kenyon.
[29:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, you pass everything off to someone else, right?
[29:58] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[29:58] Speaker 2: And you just feed money in and it's quite great.
[30:00] Speaker 4: The interim managers that Roman Abramovich used to hire was
[30:02] Speaker 4: not Callum McFarlane. We had Gus Hiddink. I love that man.
[30:06] Speaker 4: I actually have a real deep love for that man.
[30:08] Speaker 4: He would come in every other year or so, stabilise
[30:11] Speaker 4: the ship. I absolutely love Gus Hiddink because.
[30:13] Speaker 1: He's a proper football person. I've never heard anyone say they.
[30:15] Speaker 6: Love Gus Hiddink.
[30:16] Speaker 4: I'm actually saying it because I feel like he's the
[30:18] Speaker 4: most underrated, unloved.
[30:20] Speaker 1: And I think he's Fingers crossed.
[30:23] Speaker 4: I hope he is.
[30:23] Speaker 1: I hope so as well.
[30:24] Speaker 4: I check in with Simon Coopers, who's like my Dutch
[30:27] Speaker 4: monitoring of who's still alive in this world of Dutch football,
[30:31] Speaker 4: like this patrician figure.
[30:32] Speaker 1: He's still alive. He's 79.
[30:33] Speaker 2: At the protest, they were presumably cheering for Abraham Rich.
[30:37] Speaker 2: I think I heard that. Was that correct? So I think.
[30:40] Speaker 4: That was.
[30:41] Speaker 1: Maureen in the middle. Bring him back.
[30:44] Speaker 2: She was cheering for Gus Hiddink.
[30:46] Speaker 1: Hiddink, Hiddink. Of course, Hiddink.
[30:50] Speaker 4: Let me, okay, I'm going to do an apology for
[30:53] Speaker 4: Chelsea fans. We get a lot of stick for the
[30:54] Speaker 4: Roman Abramovich chanting and I've been thinking a lot about
[30:56] Speaker 4: the chanting. Now, as football fans, we are not often
[30:59] Speaker 4: the most sophisticated with our messaging. What is the easiest,
[31:02] Speaker 4: clearest way to display your dissatisfaction with what's going on
[31:06] Speaker 4: is that you sing the previous guy's name. It doesn't
[31:09] Speaker 4: mean that you're anti, you're pro-Putin. It's not a geopolitical stance.
[31:14] Speaker 4: It's just the easiest way to say that we're unhappy.
[31:16] Speaker 4: And what's interesting is the match going, so I went
[31:18] Speaker 4: to the protest and then I went to the stadium
[31:19] Speaker 4: to watch the game. The sentiment of clear lake out
[31:23] Speaker 4: was not actually translated throughout the game. You saw it
[31:26] Speaker 4: in the second half. There was some blue co-out. Bedardek
[31:28] Speaker 4: Bali usually gets the worst of the chance. But there
[31:30] Speaker 4: isn't a direct, like 100% transposition of the anger outside
[31:34] Speaker 4: the stadium to in the stadium. The match going, thanks.
[31:36] Speaker 4: have been relatively calm until the Brighton point. I think
[31:39] Speaker 4: the Abramovich chant is kind of comforting for us. It
[31:41] Speaker 4: reminds us of a time we would get great. It's
[31:43] Speaker 4: what football fans do the most, nostalgia, attachment to people.
[31:47] Speaker 4: And it's not as political. And often, actually, you know,
[31:50] Speaker 4: it was also against the British government. It's a way
[31:51] Speaker 4: of saying that we were unhappy about how we've been
[31:53] Speaker 4: treated by this government. So it's quite loaded, but in
[31:56] Speaker 4: some ways it's also just really not that deep. Because
[32:00] Speaker 4: I know that we get a lot of stick for,
[32:01] Speaker 4: you know, chanting the name of a very, very bad man.
[32:05] Speaker 4: But in our head, and I will still say it,
[32:07] Speaker 4: the bad man gave you the best years of your life.
[32:09] Speaker 4: It's going to be very difficult to not think that
[32:11] Speaker 4: there was something.
[32:11] Speaker 2: Special about that moment. I brought that up not to
[32:13] Speaker 2: be like, this is terrible. What levels of hypocrisy are
[32:16] Speaker 2: going on here? But more to just point out that
[32:21] Speaker 2: fans want success, right? And that's basically it. And anything
[32:25] Speaker 2: underneath that is probably, it's going to be completely un-nuanced.
[32:28] Speaker 2: Anything that they say about owners is probably just going
[32:31] Speaker 2: to be based on this guy gave us good experiences
[32:33] Speaker 2: and good emotions and that's that. But do you think,
[32:36] Speaker 2: part of me.
[32:37] Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's go to an
[32:39] Speaker 1: advert break. Hey, we're back from an advert break. John,
[32:43] Speaker 1: what were you going to say?
[32:44] Speaker 2: I was just going to say that when I was
[32:45] Speaker 2: cycling in this morning, I was wondering, you know, if
[32:48] Speaker 2: Abramovich was still here... would Chelsea be better? Because I
[32:52] Speaker 2: feel as though, I do still feel as though.
[32:54] Speaker 1: I like the idea of you imagining that from atop
[32:56] Speaker 1: a bicycle.
[32:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I was cycling in and listening
[33:00] Speaker 2: to the Athletic FC podcast because I was doing some
[33:03] Speaker 2: due diligence for this podcast. But I was thinking, it
[33:08] Speaker 2: almost feels as though Abramovich kind of came in and
[33:11] Speaker 2: did like capitalism in football on easy mode because like
[33:16] Speaker 2: no one else was, no one else was really doing
[33:18] Speaker 2: that right at the time. to the same level that
[33:20] Speaker 2: he was yeah and so he could just pump money
[33:22] Speaker 2: in and they could buy better players and they could
[33:23] Speaker 2: constantly change the manager but i feel like by the
[33:26] Speaker 2: time we got to the end of the abramovich era
[33:28] Speaker 2: it was starting to decline that approach right it was
[33:31] Speaker 2: yes it wasn't quite so simple as if you as
[33:32] Speaker 2: long as you spend a lot of money you will
[33:34] Speaker 2: just win everyone was catching up exactly and i'm kind of.
[33:36] Speaker 1: Because of the financial regulations that have been brought in.
[33:38] Speaker 2: Yeah and i don't know what point i was trying
[33:40] Speaker 2: to make by this other than thinking is it almost
[33:43] Speaker 2: as though he just hit a sweet spot there and
[33:45] Speaker 2: And the fans are going to remember it with rose-tinted spectacles.
[33:48] Speaker 4: And he also leaves when we're Champions League winners. And
[33:51] Speaker 4: he also manages to pluck Tuchel out of nowhere. Tuchel
[33:54] Speaker 4: has now, I think, gone on to enhance his reputation.
[33:57] Speaker 4: So the idea that there is some degree of a
[33:58] Speaker 4: talent gap And the fact that, you know, other people
[34:03] Speaker 4: have now come out who worked under Roman. So Christian Purslow,
[34:05] Speaker 4: who's now got a podcast with Henry Winter. Christian worked
[34:08] Speaker 4: with Mourinho a second time around. And I think Conte,
[34:12] Speaker 4: he was there when Mourinho, Gran Skaia was there. These
[34:14] Speaker 4: are quite fearsome people with good reputations in the football world.
[34:18] Speaker 4: I think the problem is, is that every time I
[34:19] Speaker 4: hear Bedard or Feliciano or Bowley speak, I'm like, you
[34:24] Speaker 4: know absolutely nothing about football, which I think fans can tolerate,
[34:28] Speaker 4: the fact that you don't know who Ruud Gullit is
[34:31] Speaker 4: and that, as Tuchel said when he came in, one
[34:33] Speaker 4: of the owners was like, let's play 4-3-3. These things
[34:37] Speaker 4: we can swallow.
[34:38] Speaker 2: It's a good formation to be fair.
[34:39] Speaker 1: I think you're a winner, yeah. 4-3-3.
[34:40] Speaker 4: No, 4-3-3 is perfectly fine. It was 4-4-3, wasn't it?
[34:42] Speaker 4: Wasn't it an extra player on the pitch?
[34:44] Speaker 1: 1-1-1.
[34:49] Speaker 3: No, 4-4-3. 4-4-3, sorry, sorry.
[34:50] Speaker 1: 4-4-3 is a pretty good formation.
[34:52] Speaker 4: No, no, it was 4-4-3, sorry. See, even I can't
[34:54] Speaker 4: say it wrong because it sounds so stupid. You know,
[34:57] Speaker 4: so when one of the owners comes in and he
[34:59] Speaker 4: recommends to Tuchel that we should play 4-4-3.
[35:01] Speaker 1: Yes.
[35:02] Speaker 4: These are things that I think, these slights that fans
[35:04] Speaker 4: can tolerate.
[35:04] Speaker 1: You know that bit where we couldn't, that's staying in
[35:06] Speaker 1: the show. You picked up like a professional, but not
[35:10] Speaker 1: here ever again.
[35:10] Speaker 2: Only Joe gets cut.
[35:13] Speaker 1: I get cut, but not you.
[35:15] Speaker 4: But we all watch Ted Lasso. We don't expect Americans
[35:17] Speaker 4: to be like, you know, all in.
[35:19] Speaker 1: That's fine. But we expect them to have hearts.
[35:24] Speaker 4: Just have the modesty to understand that maybe not everyone
[35:28] Speaker 4: who's worked in European football for the last 30 years
[35:30] Speaker 4: is completely stupid.
[35:31] Speaker 1: The problem with success, though, is that it really makes
[35:34] Speaker 1: you confident in your own abilities.
[35:35] Speaker 4: Damn right.
[35:36] Speaker 1: And the more successful you get, the more you go,
[35:39] Speaker 1: I can do it. And all I'm missing is just
[35:42] Speaker 1: some information. And as soon as I have the information,
[35:44] Speaker 1: I already have all the skills. It's very tempting to
[35:46] Speaker 1: think that your skills are transferable. I mean, I don't
[35:48] Speaker 1: want to sit here and pretend that I don't think
[35:50] Speaker 1: I could run a football club. I think I could
[35:52] Speaker 1: run a football club. I'm sure I couldn't run a
[35:54] Speaker 1: football club, but I believe that I could. I don't
[35:57] Speaker 1: have any money. I don't know anyone with any money,
[36:01] Speaker 1: so I can't. But, you know, if I did have
[36:03] Speaker 1: those other things, I'd kind of go for it.
[36:06] Speaker 4: I don't know how many of the listeners really care
[36:08] Speaker 4: about the kind of, a short brief history of private equity,
[36:11] Speaker 4: but Clear Lake Capital in 2020 were shit hot. Like
[36:15] Speaker 4: people were throwing money at them. They were the hottest
[36:19] Speaker 4: daddies of all. They were generating returns for their investors
[36:22] Speaker 4: like you couldn't imagine. Every time they'd open a fund,
[36:25] Speaker 4: so they opened funds to get investors, people are literally
[36:27] Speaker 4: showering them with cash. So these guys come in in
[36:31] Speaker 4: 2022 as the hottest name on Wall Street, right? And
[36:34] Speaker 4: then they find this guy, Todd Boley, who's doing amazing
[36:37] Speaker 4: things with the Dodgers. And they're like, we're going to
[36:38] Speaker 4: back him because he knows sports. We're basically the hottest
[36:42] Speaker 4: thing on Wall Street. This is going to be a
[36:43] Speaker 4: marriage made in heaven. This is a distressed asset. It's undervalued.
[36:46] Speaker 4: We get to buy off a government. It's a managed,
[36:48] Speaker 4: controlled thing.
[36:49] Speaker 1: It's how they do deals everywhere else, right? It makes
[36:51] Speaker 1: sense in other industries.
[36:52] Speaker 4: And guess what? As you said, very few of these
[36:55] Speaker 4: things have been really transferable. And the thing that they're
[36:57] Speaker 4: supposed to be good at, which is the money stuff,
[36:59] Speaker 4: they're also bad at. We haven't had a real sponsor
[37:02] Speaker 4: for two or three years.
[37:03] Speaker 1: Well, I was going to ask you about that as
[37:04] Speaker 1: well because, I mean, the final thing here is just... No, no,
[37:06] Speaker 1: I like it. I like that you're shouting. It's nice.
[37:09] Speaker 1: The final thing here is just the impact of missing
[37:12] Speaker 1: out on the Champions League, which seems very likely at
[37:14] Speaker 1: this stage. It's not confirmed, but it's very likely. That's
[37:16] Speaker 1: pretty significant for Chelsea, right?
[37:18] Speaker 4: It is going to be significant just because we've made record... Sorry,
[37:22] Speaker 4: Chelsea have made record losses.
[37:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go.
[37:25] Speaker 4: CFC London, as some of the other parts of the
[37:28] Speaker 4: fan base refer to them, have made record losses. If
[37:32] Speaker 4: you read through the financial statements, we are probably going
[37:34] Speaker 4: to be a club that's now going to be sell
[37:35] Speaker 4: to buy. I don't think there's a looming financial disaster,
[37:41] Speaker 4: as in Clear Lakes investors are suddenly going to pull
[37:43] Speaker 4: their money out. These are things like pension funds. They
[37:45] Speaker 4: don't just pull their money out. But the financial model,
[37:48] Speaker 4: which was based on spending a lot of money very
[37:50] Speaker 4: early on, that money is basically dried up.
[37:53] Speaker 1: It's not worked either, right?
[37:54] Speaker 4: And the other thing that, so the Champions League, there's
[37:56] Speaker 4: also the thing of how they value the club. One
[37:59] Speaker 4: of the reasons we do not have a front of
[38:00] Speaker 4: shirt sponsorship is that every time a sponsor comes around,
[38:02] Speaker 4: and say, we want to give you 40 million. They're like,
[38:04] Speaker 4: it's not worth 40 million.
[38:04] Speaker 1: It's worth more.
[38:06] Speaker 4: Because in private equity and private credit, you can value
[38:08] Speaker 4: your thing, whatever you want to value it. No one
[38:10] Speaker 4: knows the value. Who knows what the value is? It's
[38:12] Speaker 4: a number that you pluck out of the air. So
[38:14] Speaker 4: we've basically fallen into every single trap.
[38:16] Speaker 1: I knew it, Steve. I knew that was how it worked.
[38:18] Speaker 1: I always suspected. Now it's confirmed to me.
[38:20] Speaker 4: I'm here basically whistleblowing on the financial world.
[38:21] Speaker 2: But that raises questions again against their valuation of the
[38:24] Speaker 2: club in general, right? If they're going to say, this
[38:26] Speaker 2: club should be worth 10 billion and we can buy
[38:28] Speaker 2: it for much less. And then at every stage, they're,
[38:32] Speaker 2: completely misunderstanding the value of every asset that they're engaging
[38:36] Speaker 2: with and it does raise questions about whether or not
[38:37] Speaker 2: the club will ever be worth that amount.
[38:39] Speaker 4: Because it's just not they're just not american franchises and
[38:41] Speaker 4: and the guy i mentioned before feliciano and if your
[38:44] Speaker 4: readers care about um your listeners care about baseball he's
[38:47] Speaker 4: just bought i think a 30 or 40 stake in
[38:49] Speaker 4: the in the padres for something with a valuation of
[38:51] Speaker 4: four billion which is the highest ever that any baseball
[38:53] Speaker 4: team has ever done so they are dealing with eye-watering
[38:56] Speaker 4: franchise valuations that stuff just does not translate into a
[38:59] Speaker 4: European frame because of the business model, which we can
[39:01] Speaker 4: talk about later. And they just don't understand why that
[39:03] Speaker 4: gap exists. And I just want to bash someone's head
[39:06] Speaker 4: in at this point because it's just not the same.
[39:08] Speaker 2: It's worth saying as well, though, that this does happen
[39:09] Speaker 2: with just rich men in Europe too. Because I think
[39:11] Speaker 2: Jim Ratcliffe fell into a lot of these traps. You
[39:14] Speaker 2: can argue that now at Manchester United, he started introducing
[39:17] Speaker 2: more proper football men or at least people who've worked
[39:20] Speaker 2: behind the scenes at other clubs and know how this works.
[39:22] Speaker 2: But definitely, I think what happened at Nice, that the
[39:24] Speaker 2: experience was that he put Dave Brailsford in charge and
[39:28] Speaker 2: it was just like, you know, you know how to
[39:30] Speaker 2: run things like this, so go out and run it.
[39:32] Speaker 4: John Texter is the most extreme example of how this
[39:34] Speaker 4: has gone catastrophically wrong.
[39:36] Speaker 1: He was at X Crystal Palace.
[39:37] Speaker 4: Yes, and was with Lyon and has a whole consortium
[39:42] Speaker 4: of other clubs and is basically getting his creditors and
[39:45] Speaker 4: now taking over his distressed asset because they just don't
[39:48] Speaker 4: they don't get the math ain't mathing that's an american
[39:51] Speaker 4: thing yeah math don't math do you.
[39:52] Speaker 1: Know do you know how uh john texter would uh
[39:55] Speaker 1: get get a response from his wife he would text
[39:58] Speaker 1: her hey anyway leicester city has been relegated what a
[40:01] Speaker 1: shame we're moving on now you ready to move on
[40:04] Speaker 1: ish yeah deep breath i'm gonna bring it back okay
[40:07] Speaker 1: it's gonna be we're gonna curve back around one way
[40:09] Speaker 1: or another Leicester City have been relegated, but not from the,
[40:13] Speaker 1: this is, people know this, they've been relegated from the
[40:14] Speaker 1: championship to League One there. Here, right, Steve, 10 years ago,
[40:18] Speaker 1: we were living in a dream world where any possibility
[40:22] Speaker 1: was open to us, right on our doorstep, right, Steve,
[40:24] Speaker 1: and then Brexit happened. Steve, you're making me political today, Steve.
[40:29] Speaker 5: I thought, because Marine's here, and such a distinguished guest,
[40:31] Speaker 5: I thought I'd bring in some satire.
[40:33] Speaker 1: Okay, lovely satire.
[40:34] Speaker 3: Thank you.
[40:35] Speaker 1: What also happened in that summer, I see what you've
[40:37] Speaker 1: done there, Steve. It was the summer of 2016, by
[40:41] Speaker 1: the way. Leicester City winning the Premier League title, one
[40:43] Speaker 1: of the greatest sporting upsets of any age. A decade later,
[40:46] Speaker 1: of course, with an FA Cup and some memorable European nights,
[40:49] Speaker 1: Leicester City have just been relegated to England's third tier
[40:52] Speaker 1: after suffering successive relegations and a points deduction. John, we're
[40:57] Speaker 1: going to talk about this on Ring for Analysis. Yeah,
[41:01] Speaker 1: we're waiting for Rob. I think Rob Tanner's piece might
[41:03] Speaker 1: have been published this morning. The big inside read on
[41:07] Speaker 1: all the things that happened at Leicester City We have
[41:09] Speaker 1: two minutes to talk about it, though, if either of
[41:11] Speaker 1: you have anything you'd like to say about Leicester City.
[41:13] Speaker 1: Marie nodded and looked at you, John.
[41:15] Speaker 4: I was going to hit my old drum about how
[41:17] Speaker 4: Leicester's fate.
[41:18] Speaker 1: How old's the drum?
[41:20] Speaker 4: Well, Leicester's fate is the nightmare scenario for Americans who
[41:23] Speaker 4: think about buying football clubs in Britain because relegation is
[41:25] Speaker 4: just not something they understand. It is the unexploded bomb
[41:29] Speaker 4: which is being exploded potentially in Tottenham.
[41:31] Speaker 2: I was going to ask you about that because you
[41:33] Speaker 2: mentioned it before. That's going to have a massive impact
[41:35] Speaker 2: on the value of big clubs, right?
[41:37] Speaker 4: And the fact that is more American money going to
[41:39] Speaker 4: be coming into European support when the nightmare scenario has
[41:42] Speaker 4: been realised so the thing with.
[41:43] Speaker 1: Chelsea fans let's do that section now then because we
[41:45] Speaker 1: were going to talk about this as it relates to
[41:47] Speaker 1: Spurs also who are potential relegation candidates still alongside Bernie
[41:51] Speaker 1: and Wolves confirming the relegation of the final loose thread
[41:54] Speaker 1: I'm trying to read Steve's sentence really quickly the final
[41:57] Speaker 1: loose thread swaying in the wind at the bottom of
[41:59] Speaker 1: the table is who will join so if Spurs are
[42:01] Speaker 1: also relegated this is as you say this is the
[42:05] Speaker 1: nightmare scenario for investors right.
[42:06] Speaker 4: For American investors.
[42:07] Speaker 1: For American investors.
[42:09] Speaker 4: Very particularly for American investors.
[42:10] Speaker 1: We're going hard on America in this episode. Get them,
[42:12] Speaker 1: get them, Marie.
[42:12] Speaker 4: So the concept of relegation is the, you know, has
[42:15] Speaker 4: been the unexploded bomb that American investors look at European
[42:18] Speaker 4: sport and think this is not a real business model.
[42:21] Speaker 4: How the hell can you have franchises that get relegated?
[42:23] Speaker 1: And it's because they have closed league systems, right? Where,
[42:26] Speaker 1: you know, you buy in as a franchise, you can
[42:27] Speaker 1: never get relegated. And in theory, that protects the valuation.
[42:30] Speaker 4: Not only that, you bomb, so you get better picks
[42:33] Speaker 4: in the draft, right? So my favourite joke going around
[42:35] Speaker 4: Chelsea fans is that we were very bad at Brighton
[42:37] Speaker 4: because now we're going to get the first round pick
[42:38] Speaker 4: in the summer for Kylian Mbappe or whoever's on the market.
[42:41] Speaker 1: That's not how it works. Incidentally, I should say that Kaya,
[42:44] Speaker 1: who's not here today, one of our colleagues... He's written
[42:47] Speaker 1: an illustrated script that will go out on TIFO in
[42:49] Speaker 1: a few weeks' time about whether or not there could
[42:51] Speaker 1: ever be a draft in European football. Short answer, no.
[42:56] Speaker 1: But you'll find out the exciting reasons why.
[42:58] Speaker 3: Please continue.
[42:59] Speaker 4: So with American money come American ideas, which is how
[43:01] Speaker 4: we got the Super League. But relegation has always been
[43:04] Speaker 4: the unexploded financial bomb.
[43:06] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[43:06] Speaker 4: And now it might be being realised with Tottenham and
[43:08] Speaker 4: with Leicester. It's already played out.
[43:10] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[43:11] Speaker 4: And so my question is, is more American money going
[43:13] Speaker 4: to be coming into European football?
[43:14] Speaker 1: Just to be clear, are you asking me this question?
[43:16] Speaker 4: Well, the question I put out into the air is
[43:19] Speaker 4: that now American owners are going to... As a Chelsea fan.
[43:21] Speaker 2: I think we should put this to Joe, to be honest.
[43:23] Speaker 1: Ask me the question. I'll give you the answer. Here
[43:26] Speaker 1: we go. What is it?
[43:26] Speaker 4: As a football fan, as a Chelsea fan in particular,
[43:29] Speaker 4: the only joy that I have in this season is
[43:31] Speaker 4: that we could potentially relegate on him.
[43:33] Speaker 1: That's fun.
[43:33] Speaker 4: That's also the thing that's going to make the owners
[43:35] Speaker 4: who are already sweating sitting up in the nice seats...
[43:39] Speaker 4: Sweat even harder and stay awake at night.
[43:40] Speaker 1: Don't pretend you don't sit in the nice seats. I've
[43:42] Speaker 1: never sat in the nice seats. That's absolute nonsense. You're
[43:45] Speaker 1: always in the nice seats.
[43:46] Speaker 2: I saw you the other day just behind Resenia, actually.
[43:50] Speaker 4: You can see me on Getty Images. Looking managerial. I
[43:53] Speaker 4: reckon I could do it. And so that situation is
[43:58] Speaker 4: now playing out, which for these moneyed men who are
[44:01] Speaker 4: buying up our clubs, my question to you, Joe, is
[44:04] Speaker 4: are they going to, keep buying British football clubs or
[44:07] Speaker 4: European football clubs if the relegation thing is becoming real.
[44:09] Speaker 4: And the other one is, which is more pertinent for
[44:11] Speaker 4: the Chelsea fan, is that we want clear leg out.
[44:13] Speaker 4: Who's going to buy us? Because the other part of
[44:15] Speaker 4: the story is that the other version of money was
[44:18] Speaker 4: from the sovereign wealth funds of Gulf countries, who now
[44:21] Speaker 4: financial situation is looking much tougher. So we can't just
[44:24] Speaker 4: flog players to Saudi and we can't expect sheikhs from
[44:27] Speaker 4: the GCC... to buy our clubs because they don't have
[44:29] Speaker 4: that kind of money to spend.
[44:29] Speaker 2: There's only 10 billion as well.
[44:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, nothing. You've always got Azerbaijan.
[44:34] Speaker 4: As live golf. Well, they're also part of the slightly
[44:37] Speaker 4: hairy part of the energy supply network.
[44:39] Speaker 1: I guess that's the problem when there's a globalized system
[44:41] Speaker 1: of energy and an economy that's all joined up.
[44:44] Speaker 4: The question is, Joe, where does the money come from?
[44:46] Speaker 4: Because I think Americans are becoming much more squeamish.
[44:48] Speaker 1: That's true.
[44:49] Speaker 4: And the Tottenham thing will happen.
[44:50] Speaker 1: Who's big in green renewables? Anyone?
[44:52] Speaker 4: Jim Radcliffe. Jim Radcliffe has a massive chemicals company.
[44:56] Speaker 2: Flamini.
[44:56] Speaker 3: I was going to say Matthew Flamini.
[44:58] Speaker 6: Oh, Matthew Flamini. He's got.
[44:59] Speaker 1: He's unlikely to buy Chelsea, I would say.
[45:02] Speaker 4: I think it's some AI.
[45:03] Speaker 1: AI people?
[45:04] Speaker 4: Oh, Peter Thiel's going to buy Chelsea.
[45:06] Speaker 1: Peter Thiel. But the problem is if... I can't do
[45:09] Speaker 1: this bit. Never mind. What were you saying? You were
[45:13] Speaker 1: saying something else.
[45:13] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
[45:14] Speaker 1: It's just a nightmare scenario, isn't it? I mean, in
[45:16] Speaker 1: a way... I can't imagine what the next tranche of
[45:19] Speaker 1: Premier League owners will be. It does feel as though
[45:21] Speaker 1: maybe we're in a bit of a stasis now.
[45:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, we've talked a lot about the finances, but I
[45:26] Speaker 2: think people undervalue the sort of tactical landscape. I mean,
[45:29] Speaker 2: I'm obviously going to say that.
[45:30] Speaker 4: Pun intended.
[45:31] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[45:33] Speaker 2: Having just written a book about this.
[45:34] Speaker 1: He's always talking about his book. Any opportunity. Hey, you've
[45:37] Speaker 1: got a book. Are you allowed to talk about it?
[45:39] Speaker 1: Not yet. Just talk about it. Who cares?
[45:41] Speaker 3: Two people who have a book they can't talk about.
[45:43] Speaker 1: Two people who have a book they can't talk about. Fine,
[45:45] Speaker 1: go on. Talk about your book, John.
[45:46] Speaker 2: But yeah, I do think that... Have you revealed the
[45:48] Speaker 2: title of your book yet? Not yet. It's coming out soon.
[45:50] Speaker 1: When's it being revealed?
[45:51] Speaker 2: My publisher did say that we could do a soft
[45:53] Speaker 2: launch on this episode.
[45:55] Speaker 1: Oh! Something got cut because we were so excited we
[45:59] Speaker 1: might have a soft launch of John's book. If you don't,
[46:01] Speaker 1: I can tell them what the title is, but you
[46:03] Speaker 1: know what'll happen if I do. I'm going to get
[46:05] Speaker 1: it wrong. Do you know what a soft launch.
[46:07] Speaker 4: Like, if you had a traditional soft launch... which is
[46:11] Speaker 4: basically that you've got a celebrity girlfriend slash boyfriend.
[46:14] Speaker 2: Well, that's also true.
[46:15] Speaker 4: What you do is you go on Instagram and you
[46:17] Speaker 4: post a picture of you sitting next to them at
[46:19] Speaker 4: the NBA game. That's a soft launch. So what you
[46:22] Speaker 4: need to do is just turn up with the book.
[46:24] Speaker 1: Sit behind Liam Rosetti.
[46:25] Speaker 4: Just put it on the desk. Put it on the
[46:27] Speaker 4: desk and don't say anything.
[46:29] Speaker 1: Yeah. What's it called?
[46:31] Speaker 2: I don't think we can do it. I think we've
[46:32] Speaker 2: got to wait for the hard launch.
[46:34] Speaker 5: What I will say, John, is that on Waterstones' website,
[46:37] Speaker 5: I'm sure other ones have it.
[46:38] Speaker 1: Is it already on there?
[46:39] Speaker 3: The title is on there.
[46:40] Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh.
[46:41] Speaker 6: Oh, it's done.
[46:42] Speaker 1: It's out there, John.
[46:43] Speaker 2: You can pre-order it right now.
[46:45] Speaker 3: If you want it.
[46:45] Speaker 2: I haven't done the hard launch.
[46:47] Speaker 3: Coming soon, awaiting publication.
[46:49] Speaker 2: I have an email from my publisher.
[46:51] Speaker 1: Read that email, and then that will be the soft launch.
[46:55] Speaker 4: Put the Waterstones link in the show notes. That's the
[46:57] Speaker 4: soft launch, and just don't mention it.
[46:59] Speaker 3: As well as other good bookstores.
[47:00] Speaker 2: So this is what the publisher said.
[47:02] Speaker 1: What's the name of the publisher? As in the person
[47:04] Speaker 1: who sent you the email?
[47:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not telling.
[47:06] Speaker 1: Let's call them Jim.
[47:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, Jim.
[47:08] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[47:09] Speaker 2: Hey, John.
[47:10] Speaker 1: Hey, John.
[47:11] Speaker 2: Just jumping in here to say a soft launch on
[47:13] Speaker 2: the podcast would be great.
[47:14] Speaker 1: Jumping in.
[47:15] Speaker 2: Hyphen. Interesting. Just mentioning it's coming at this stage would
[47:18] Speaker 2: be great. It's coming, guys.
[47:20] Speaker 1: Okay, the book is coming. And the book is called.
[47:24] Speaker 3: Is it coming like a shadow, John? Or a spectre?
[47:26] Speaker 2: It is arriving at some point. And I've done some
[47:30] Speaker 2: promo videos. And I think it'll be out in the
[47:32] Speaker 2: next week or so. So people won't have that long
[47:34] Speaker 2: to worry.
[47:35] Speaker 1: Not the book. The book will be out in the
[47:36] Speaker 1: next week or so.
[47:36] Speaker 2: But the book generally is about the tactical landscape.
[47:39] Speaker 1: That's why we brought it. Surprise.
[47:41] Speaker 2: But I think that one of the things that's been
[47:43] Speaker 2: so surprising about the way that football has evolved on
[47:46] Speaker 2: the field is that we are now, we've sort of regressed.
[47:49] Speaker 2: You can read the modern history of football as football
[47:52] Speaker 2: was relatively chaotic and the teams who had the better
[47:55] Speaker 2: players would generally win. That's still always roughly been the case.
[47:59] Speaker 2: But we then get a guy come along called Pep
[48:01] Speaker 2: Guardiola who finds ways of actually imposing control onto this
[48:04] Speaker 2: chaotic morass that is football. And he does so in
[48:07] Speaker 2: a way.
[48:07] Speaker 1: Guardiola and the chaotic morass. I think that's the name
[48:09] Speaker 1: of the book.
[48:12] Speaker 2: And he gets to a point where he can do
[48:14] Speaker 2: that well enough to be able to relatively dominate in
[48:16] Speaker 2: the sport. And a lot of people try and copy
[48:19] Speaker 2: him and don't do it quite so well. Some of
[48:22] Speaker 2: them do it quite well and he doesn't win everything,
[48:24] Speaker 2: but he's obviously won a lot over that period, over
[48:27] Speaker 2: the last 15 years. And then what starts happening is coaches, teams,
[48:32] Speaker 2: players realise, you know, if you can't beat him, no, wait,
[48:36] Speaker 2: this is the wrong idiom. If you can't beat him,
[48:40] Speaker 2: then don't join him. And start doing stuff that basically
[48:44] Speaker 2: f * * * it up is the technical term
[48:47] Speaker 2: for it.
[48:48] Speaker 1: That's the second time you've sworn on today's episode. It
[48:51] Speaker 1: was after a reference of Graham Potter using the F-bomb.
[48:55] Speaker 2: I feel I've just potted myself.
[48:56] Speaker 1: You've stretched a little.
[48:57] Speaker 2: But essentially, if Pep is trying to impose control, then
[49:02] Speaker 2: one way you can destabilize that is by rejecting control
[49:05] Speaker 2: and trying to play in a way that destabilizes and
[49:08] Speaker 2: that's why I think the Premier League has become so
[49:10] Speaker 2: physical so direct teams go man to man to stop
[49:14] Speaker 2: opponents being able to build up because if you allow
[49:16] Speaker 2: a team to build up then they are able to
[49:18] Speaker 2: control the game and as a result, what started happening
[49:21] Speaker 2: is we've sort of regressed back to that pre-Guardiola era
[49:24] Speaker 2: to an extent. It's much harder to impose those sort
[49:28] Speaker 2: of structural control elements, both in and out of possession
[49:31] Speaker 2: on the game. And I think the result of that
[49:33] Speaker 2: is that the big six teams have lost their edge
[49:36] Speaker 2: a little bit.
[49:36] Speaker 1: It's unpredictable.
[49:37] Speaker 2: Yeah. And what we've learned this season is that anyone
[49:41] Speaker 2: can beat anyone. And there's not the consistency that we
[49:44] Speaker 2: used to have in the past. And as a result,
[49:46] Speaker 2: that probably plays into what we're seeing, that the top
[49:50] Speaker 2: teams are becoming less of an investment opportunity, right? If
[49:53] Speaker 2: you aren't able to impose control and therefore dominance in
[49:56] Speaker 2: some respect as a top six side and consistently finish
[49:59] Speaker 2: in the top four spaces... then we're going to end
[50:01] Speaker 2: up in a world where it's much harder to justify
[50:03] Speaker 2: throwing a lot of money.
[50:05] Speaker 4: So Pep has basically destroyed financial capitalism in sport. I
[50:08] Speaker 4: knew he was a progressive kind of guy.
[50:09] Speaker 2: I guess he kind of was the, I would say,
[50:13] Speaker 2: the sort of proto-capitalist in that sense, right? He made
[50:15] Speaker 2: it much more viable for people to invest in these clubs.
[50:19] Speaker 2: And I think, yeah, you know, everyone's now found ways
[50:22] Speaker 2: of causing problems. And arguably, he's now shifting that way
[50:25] Speaker 2: as well. Like he's still trying to impose control, but
[50:27] Speaker 2: in a very different way. But Yeah, I think that
[50:30] Speaker 2: the reality is that the world of football is going
[50:32] Speaker 2: to be chaotic for the next few seasons.
[50:34] Speaker 4: Because it's hyper-competitive.
[50:36] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[50:36] Speaker 4: Apparently capitalism is supposed to be hyper-competitive.
[50:38] Speaker 2: That's true, but it never is. Maybe it's just monopolies.
[50:40] Speaker 3: It never is though, right?
[50:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
[50:42] Speaker 4: Philosophically, I quite like the idea that the world's hyper-capitalists
[50:46] Speaker 4: do not like football because it's too competitive for them
[50:48] Speaker 4: because what they actually prefer is monopolies.
[50:50] Speaker 2: Yes, yeah. I love that. I think that's the reality
[50:51] Speaker 2: of where we're at with the Premier League.
[50:53] Speaker 4: That's a great good news story. That's my next column.
[50:55] Speaker 1: Man City beat Burnley.
[50:58] Speaker 2: Speaking of good news, Colin.
[50:59] Speaker 1: Speaking of good news. Now, the reason that this was
[51:01] Speaker 1: good news is because they beat, I think they had
[51:03] Speaker 1: something like 17xG in the game, but they only scored
[51:06] Speaker 1: one goal, which, John, as you know, means that they're
[51:10] Speaker 1: now on exactly the same number of points as Arsenal
[51:12] Speaker 1: and on the same goal difference, I think, although they
[51:15] Speaker 1: have more goals scored. so there's Steve where did this
[51:19] Speaker 1: screenshot come from.
[51:19] Speaker 3: I saw this in the Premier League's official website so this.
[51:22] Speaker 1: Is the Premier League's official website rule C 17 of
[51:26] Speaker 1: the Premier League handbook states that the final table placings
[51:28] Speaker 1: are determined by the following criteria in this order so
[51:31] Speaker 1: goal difference is the first then goals scored where Manchester
[51:34] Speaker 1: City currently have more then points won in head to
[51:37] Speaker 1: head matches which essentially means that let's assume that Arsenal
[51:41] Speaker 1: and Man City were both to win all of their
[51:43] Speaker 1: remaining games which probably won't happen but if it did
[51:46] Speaker 1: It does mean that in order for Arsenal to win
[51:48] Speaker 1: the league at this stage, they need to outscore Man City,
[51:52] Speaker 1: which doesn't feel like it's going to happen.
[51:54] Speaker 2: Steve was quite positive about that this morning, which I
[51:56] Speaker 2: thought was interesting. He was like, yeah, all we need
[51:58] Speaker 2: to do is just outscore Man City.
[52:00] Speaker 1: I think we should have a playoff. You think? Yeah, playoffs.
[52:03] Speaker 1: You'd like a playoff? Do you mean that seriously or
[52:05] Speaker 1: are you doing a sarcastic American edition?
[52:07] Speaker 4: No, I'm doing my, the red thread of this episode
[52:09] Speaker 4: is my deep anti-Americanism.
[52:10] Speaker 2: I think a playoff would be great though.
[52:12] Speaker 4: It would be great.
[52:12] Speaker 1: But just penalties though. At what stage in the rules
[52:14] Speaker 1: would it come in though?
[52:14] Speaker 4: Just penalties.
[52:15] Speaker 1: It would only be if the goal difference was the same?
[52:17] Speaker 2: No, it's on the graphic show. If you finish on
[52:19] Speaker 2: the same.
[52:20] Speaker 1: Oh, there is a playoff.
[52:22] Speaker 5: But it's not possible because before it gets to that
[52:25] Speaker 5: stage City's.
[52:26] Speaker 1: Positive results I didn't realise there actually was a playoff
[52:28] Speaker 1: I didn't know that was a real thing okay so
[52:30] Speaker 1: after head-to-head matches away goals scored in head-to-head matches and
[52:33] Speaker 1: then a playoff match oh my god that would be
[52:36] Speaker 1: so exciting but you could just do it with points
[52:38] Speaker 1: right would you move that up the list yeah move
[52:40] Speaker 1: it up straight after points yeah.
[52:42] Speaker 2: Because you've got to win the league right you can't
[52:44] Speaker 2: just the post-season Goal difference.
[52:46] Speaker 1: It's like a post-season. I'm totally sold. I'd watch that game.
[52:49] Speaker 1: Although fixture congestion, you know, I don't know. I can't
[52:52] Speaker 1: play too many games. It might get in the way
[52:54] Speaker 1: of the Champions League final. What about top four?
[52:56] Speaker 6: Top four?
[52:56] Speaker 2: Semis.
[52:57] Speaker 8: Final no no i don't like that that's too now
[52:59] Speaker 8: you're getting crazy didn't they just add they added more
[53:02] Speaker 8: teams into the championship play yes now there's going to
[53:04] Speaker 8: be an extra two more i think my favorite is
[53:06] Speaker 8: baseball though right where you played like what 168 games
[53:09] Speaker 8: or something just to then have none of which matter
[53:10] Speaker 8: yeah exactly you end up with you playing an incredible
[53:13] Speaker 8: amount of games for like still 20 teams to potentially
[53:16] Speaker 8: win i.
[53:16] Speaker 1: Never understand that when i speak to some american colleagues
[53:19] Speaker 1: and friends and i don't understand american sport i say
[53:22] Speaker 1: oh it's what's going on in the nba they go
[53:23] Speaker 1: oh it's just the regular season i'm like It's the
[53:25] Speaker 1: regular season.
[53:26] Speaker 4: Regular season.
[53:27] Speaker 1: Regular season. Is that not good? No, you've got to
[53:30] Speaker 1: wait until you get to the playoffs.
[53:31] Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
[53:32] Speaker 1: So it seems as though it's completely fucking pointless. Right,
[53:35] Speaker 1: there we go. Anyway, good luck to Arsenal scoring more goals.
[53:38] Speaker 1: I think they better hope they win more games. I
[53:40] Speaker 1: think that would probably be easier.
[53:42] Speaker 2: City only beat Burnley 1-0, right? And Burnley are statistically
[53:46] Speaker 2: the worst team in the league, so... Lots of hope
[53:48] Speaker 2: to be had there for Arsenal fans.
[53:50] Speaker 1: I feel as though when you... I genuinely think they
[53:52] Speaker 1: did get close to 4xG in the game, though. Oh, yeah. So,
[53:55] Speaker 1: did you watch it?
[53:55] Speaker 2: It's a standard. I didn't watch it.
[53:56] Speaker 4: They had some great chances.
[53:58] Speaker 2: It's a standard Man City game, right, where they put
[54:00] Speaker 2: up tons and then give up, like, 0.5.
[54:02] Speaker 4: You can see Chirky just relishing the idea of scoring
[54:04] Speaker 4: 10 goals against every team. He's like, this is what
[54:06] Speaker 4: I live for.
[54:07] Speaker 1: So good. Oh, look, I'm sad Luminia Mars aren't going
[54:09] Speaker 1: to be in the World Cup. That's not the plan.
[54:11] Speaker 1: But I just remembered I'm sad about that. And I'm
[54:13] Speaker 1: sad that Esteban's not going to be in the World
[54:15] Speaker 1: Cup either. This is the only chance Joe has of
[54:17] Speaker 1: watching these people. I'm just guessing best on his injury,
[54:21] Speaker 1: but I'm not sure it's been confirmed. I'm just saying things.
[54:23] Speaker 2: It's mad these days, though, how quickly they come back.
[54:26] Speaker 2: It's almost like you're more likely to get back to
[54:27] Speaker 2: the World Cup now if you break your leg than
[54:31] Speaker 2: if you do your Achilles or you tear your hamstring.
[54:32] Speaker 4: We were all staring at Beckham's metatarsal one summer.
[54:35] Speaker 1: That was a good time.
[54:37] Speaker 3: Okay.
[54:38] Speaker 1: And last on our... Actually, not last. Oh, this is
[54:40] Speaker 1: a long episode, Steve.
[54:41] Speaker 3: Uh-huh.
[54:42] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[54:43] Speaker 1: There's a whole interview to come later. Not for us.
[54:46] Speaker 1: I did it already. But for Steve, he will have
[54:48] Speaker 1: to edit that in. So good luck, Steve. Before we
[54:50] Speaker 1: get there, though, there's a strange report. God, it's been
[54:54] Speaker 1: very American-focused today, hasn't it? There's a strange report from
[54:58] Speaker 1: America that perhaps plans have been suggested to replace Iran.
[55:02] Speaker 1: in the 2026 Men's World Cup with another country, Maureen.
[55:06] Speaker 1: What's going on?
[55:06] Speaker 4: Beginning with I.
[55:07] Speaker 1: Another I country. Is it Iraq? Iraq are already in it.
[55:10] Speaker 1: Iceland aren't in it, right?
[55:11] Speaker 4: Guess which country beginning with I.
[55:13] Speaker 1: Are there any other I countries? Indonesia?
[55:16] Speaker 2: India?
[55:17] Speaker 7: India.
[55:17] Speaker 2: India's never been in the World Cup, as we know
[55:20] Speaker 2: from our recording this week.
[55:21] Speaker 1: That's true. We spoke about that this week.
[55:23] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[55:23] Speaker 4: It's Italia. It's Italia. This is a report from one
[55:27] Speaker 4: of my former colleagues. James Fontanella-Card, no relation to me.
[55:31] Speaker 4: Story in the FT this morning.
[55:32] Speaker 1: Got it.
[55:33] Speaker 4: That it has been suggested by an envoy.
[55:37] Speaker 1: I like to say envoy.
[55:38] Speaker 4: Envoy.
[55:38] Speaker 1: Do you say envoy?
[55:39] Speaker 4: Envoy.
[55:39] Speaker 2: Envoy, I say.
[55:40] Speaker 1: You say envoy.
[55:41] Speaker 2: Envoy.
[55:42] Speaker 1: You say epiphenomenal envoy.
[55:44] Speaker 2: An epiphenomenal envoy.
[55:47] Speaker 1: So it was suggested by an envoy.
[55:49] Speaker 4: Yes, whose name is Paolo... Sorry, I keep forgetting his name.
[55:55] Speaker 1: It's starting to sound a little Italian, though.
[55:57] Speaker 4: Paolo Zampoli, who is a go-between between the government of Rome,
[56:01] Speaker 4: the government of Maloney, and the government of Trump. And
[56:03] Speaker 4: they've suggested this rapprochement between these two historic nations. That's
[56:09] Speaker 4: a French word, by the way. That's a French for you.
[56:13] Speaker 4: That Iran should not, which is qualified legitimately for the
[56:15] Speaker 4: World Cup, and as far as we know, they are
[56:17] Speaker 4: going to the World Cup, despite what's happening in the
[56:19] Speaker 4: Strait of Hormuz. It may or may not be happening.
[56:22] Speaker 4: that Italy should replace them because Italy as a country
[56:24] Speaker 4: with a lot of World Cup heritage need to be there.
[56:28] Speaker 4: And my bigger, deeper geopolitical reading is that there's obviously
[56:32] Speaker 4: been a great schism between the Pope of who's American
[56:36] Speaker 4: in Rome and Donald Trump. So one way to heal
[56:39] Speaker 4: this division is to get the Italians at the World
[56:43] Speaker 4: Cup in the USA and kick out the old enemy. Yeah.
[56:46] Speaker 1: The Iranians. What's the schism? I don't know about the
[56:48] Speaker 1: Pope and the Trump schism.
[56:49] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Pope Leo, who is a Chicago-based Pope.
[56:53] Speaker 1: He's American, right?
[56:54] Speaker 4: He's an American Pope who's been reasonably unflattering about Donald
[56:59] Speaker 4: Trump's foreign policy.
[57:00] Speaker 1: Ah, okay.
[57:01] Speaker 4: And it's caused a schism between the government of Maloney,
[57:03] Speaker 4: who is the Italian prime minister, who was supposed to
[57:05] Speaker 4: be Trump's great friend in Europe. So she was his girl, basically.
[57:09] Speaker 3: Right.
[57:09] Speaker 4: And then he turned on her and said, she's not
[57:10] Speaker 4: supporting me because the Italians are not sending enough weaponry
[57:13] Speaker 4: to help out what's happening in Iran.
[57:14] Speaker 1: Right.
[57:14] Speaker 4: So how do you heal? this big divide within the
[57:17] Speaker 4: Catholic slash Protestant community.
[57:18] Speaker 2: All of Trump's guys are Catholic as well, right?
[57:20] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. J.D.
[57:21] Speaker 2: Vance. And Marco, what's his name?
[57:23] Speaker 3: Marco Rubio.
[57:24] Speaker 1: Rubio.
[57:25] Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I think the best outcome here
[57:28] Speaker 2: is that we get a separate Pope, like what they
[57:31] Speaker 2: used to do in the.
[57:32] Speaker 1: Oh, a second Pope.
[57:33] Speaker 2: They had a period where there was a number of
[57:36] Speaker 2: different Popes.
[57:36] Speaker 1: At the same time.
[57:37] Speaker 4: Well, Trump thinks he's Jesus, so that means he's already
[57:39] Speaker 4: above the Pope.
[57:39] Speaker 1: Didn't they have one when, was it when Rome was split?
[57:42] Speaker 1: And there was a Byzantine Pope.
[57:43] Speaker 2: There was one in Avignon. There was one somewhere else.
[57:47] Speaker 1: Where should the second Pope be based?
[57:49] Speaker 2: That's a good question.
[57:50] Speaker 4: Mar-a-Lago.
[57:52] Speaker 1: Of course.
[57:53] Speaker 4: I mean, if they were going to do this properly,
[57:54] Speaker 4: you should but that's a whole other thing we're probably
[57:57] Speaker 4: not talking about.
[57:58] Speaker 2: Steve is definitely coming now.
[58:00] Speaker 1: Something got cut! And it was another....
[58:05] Speaker 3: Another thing got cut!
[58:07] Speaker 1: More things got cut!
[58:09] Speaker 4: You're not having me back, are you?
[58:10] Speaker 1: No, you're coming back, but you will keep getting cut. Now,
[58:14] Speaker 1: that was... I can't wait to see how that one develops.
[58:18] Speaker 1: But until then.
[58:18] Speaker 4: Also, this is going to be the most geopolitical World
[58:20] Speaker 4: Cup of all time.
[58:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, well.
[58:21] Speaker 4: Qatar and Russia.
[58:22] Speaker 1: I feel like every the next one.
[58:25] Speaker 1: You know, like where does it go beyond Saudi Arabia?
[58:28] Speaker 6: Mars.
[58:28] Speaker 4: Mars?
[58:29] Speaker 1: Yeah. Where else can you go? You could go to.
[58:30] Speaker 4: Peter Thiel's colonised... Greenland.
[58:32] Speaker 1: North Korea.
[58:33] Speaker 4: New colonised planet.
[58:34] Speaker 1: Greenland, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[58:36] Speaker 4: When the Silicon Valley brothers have got their own planet,
[58:37] Speaker 4: we'll have a work up there.
[58:38] Speaker 6: That's true.
[58:39] Speaker 1: Silicon country.
[58:40] Speaker 2: And it won't be played with humans. It'll either be
[58:42] Speaker 2: AI or it'll be robots.
[58:44] Speaker 1: But when it's robots or AI, there'll be no offside mistakes,
[58:48] Speaker 1: will there? There'll be no issues with the AI.
[58:50] Speaker 4: Valuations will be sky high.
[58:52] Speaker 2: We'll be digging up worms with stones at that point.
[58:54] Speaker 1: Delicious, juicy, fat worms. I can't wait. Now, speaking of delicious, juicy,
[59:00] Speaker 1: fat worms. Not at all, speaking of that. No, we'll
[59:03] Speaker 1: cut that bit out.
[59:06] Speaker 3: What do they eat in the Arctic Circle?
[59:08] Speaker 1: That's true.
[59:08] Speaker 2: Speaking of the Arctic Circle.
[59:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. do you know where there's no worms john
[59:11] Speaker 1: uh the arctic circle do you know what i wasn't
[59:14] Speaker 1: expecting you to get the correct answer but that is
[59:16] Speaker 1: the correct answer we've got something a little different for
[59:19] Speaker 1: listeners now very exciting uh so we've spoken on today's
[59:22] Speaker 1: episode about a few clubs and chelsea and tottenham who
[59:25] Speaker 1: it's fair to say and not making the most of
[59:27] Speaker 1: their significant resources, right, Steve? One club who's absolutely doing
[59:30] Speaker 1: that is Norwegian side, Budde Glimt. I'm learning how to
[59:34] Speaker 1: say Budde. Budde. Budde almost, isn't it?
[59:36] Speaker 2: I don't know, but it's got two different O's, so.
[59:39] Speaker 1: Budde.
[59:40] Speaker 5: Budde is how Arman Harvard said it.
[59:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, Budde Glimt. So the side that resides in the
[59:45] Speaker 1: Arctic Circle were relegated in 2016 to Norway's second tier,
[59:48] Speaker 1: but since 2020 have won four of the last six
[59:52] Speaker 1: Norwegian top flight titles. after becoming the first side from
[59:56] Speaker 1: northern Norway to win it. Now in Europe, they also
[59:58] Speaker 1: reached the Europa League semi-finals last year, losing to Spurs,
[1:00:01] Speaker 1: we all remember that. And I spoke to their sporting director,
[1:00:04] Speaker 1: Horvath Zachariasen, and more?
[1:00:08] Speaker 3: Why is that in there?
[1:00:08] Speaker 1: I don't know.
[1:00:09] Speaker 3: Hang on.
[1:00:09] Speaker 1: I'll just lose it. I'm still trying to find the
[1:00:12] Speaker 1: guy who did this. Yesterday I spoke to their sporting director,
[1:00:18] Speaker 1: Horvath Zachariasen, And, well, listen, before we begin, it turns out,
[1:00:23] Speaker 1: as Steve says, there are actually worms in the Arctic Circle.
[1:00:25] Speaker 1: So there you go. Our segue didn't really work.
[1:00:27] Speaker 2: Including native ice worms. They sound scary, don't they?
[1:00:30] Speaker 1: Are they real, Steve? Ice worms that live in glaciers?
[1:00:32] Speaker 3: According to an article in The Guardian, so yeah.
[1:00:35] Speaker 1: Marine worms in the sea ice and non-native earthworms that
[1:00:38] Speaker 1: have invaded the region. Imagine being invaded by earthworms. Ice worms.
[1:00:43] Speaker 1: That does sound like dune, yeah.
[1:00:45] Speaker 3: Earthworm gem as well.
[1:00:46] Speaker 1: Imagine being an earthworm and then thinking, I must go
[1:00:49] Speaker 1: to the glaciers. Seems like the wrong place for you.
[1:00:51] Speaker 1: There we go. Anyway, it was very interesting talking to Horvath.
[1:00:54] Speaker 1: You'll get to listen to this. He didn't like my
[1:00:56] Speaker 1: first question very much. I think he took it the
[1:00:59] Speaker 1: wrong way, potentially. I asked him, I meant this as
[1:01:02] Speaker 1: a broad question. I just wanted to see what he
[1:01:04] Speaker 1: would say. I asked him, you know, broadly, what does
[1:01:07] Speaker 1: he attribute their success in Europe to?
[1:01:09] Speaker 2: Which he said was a weird question.
[1:01:10] Speaker 1: But I think I pulled the interview back towards him.
[1:01:13] Speaker 3: It took time to warm up to you.
[1:01:15] Speaker 1: It took a little time. It's hard to tell, isn't it? Anyway, well,
[1:01:18] Speaker 1: you be the judge. Find out now. So, welcome, Horvath.
[1:01:23] Speaker 1: The first thing I want to say is congratulations on
[1:01:26] Speaker 1: the incredibly deep run in the Champions League last season.
[1:01:30] Speaker 1: This is a very broad question, but to what do
[1:01:32] Speaker 1: you attribute that success?
[1:01:35] Speaker 6: That's a weird question also.
[1:01:39] Speaker 7: We are a hundred and something people working in the
[1:01:42] Speaker 7: club and I think everyone tried to pull as hard
[1:01:45] Speaker 7: as they can in the right direction. And I am
[1:01:50] Speaker 7: one of the hundred and something in the club.
[1:01:52] Speaker 6: So, yeah, there you go.
[1:01:55] Speaker 1: Fair enough. Is that the way you see it, from
[1:01:57] Speaker 1: a club perspective, that it's maybe not necessarily democratic, but
[1:02:00] Speaker 1: it's a whole group of people, everyone pulling in the
[1:02:02] Speaker 1: same direction?
[1:02:03] Speaker 7: I think that's vital for especially a club like ours,
[1:02:07] Speaker 7: that everyone understands the direction that we want to go,
[1:02:13] Speaker 7: and everyone has to put their heart and soul into
[1:02:17] Speaker 7: actually pushing in that direction, and then you can achieve things.
[1:02:22] Speaker 1: And what do you mean when you say specifically for
[1:02:25] Speaker 1: a club like yours?
[1:02:27] Speaker 7: We are a small club if you compare us to
[1:02:32] Speaker 7: the teams that we are playing against in Europe. We
[1:02:35] Speaker 7: are really small. So it's vital for us to be.
[1:02:42] Speaker 6: A unit.
[1:02:43] Speaker 7: And that goes through the whole club from the player group,
[1:02:47] Speaker 7: the staff, also everyone who works in the club that
[1:02:51] Speaker 7: we understand what it takes.
[1:02:54] Speaker 6: And the demands of being in that unit.
[1:02:57] Speaker 1: And do you consider that sort of part of your
[1:03:00] Speaker 1: job as part of your leadership position to try to
[1:03:02] Speaker 1: make sure that everybody feels aligned?
[1:03:04] Speaker 7: Yeah, I feel a heavy responsibility for the culture in
[1:03:09] Speaker 7: the club. But I also hope that, you know, through
[1:03:13] Speaker 7: the work that we do, that everyone kind of policed
[1:03:16] Speaker 7: the culture.
[1:03:17] Speaker 6: Whatever you do here.
[1:03:18] Speaker 7: So because it's the force of everything that kind of
[1:03:23] Speaker 7: then it's possible for a club like Bodeglim to actually.
[1:03:26] Speaker 6: Have a run like that in Champions League.
[1:03:28] Speaker 1: What kind of things do you do to try to
[1:03:30] Speaker 1: set that culture?
[1:03:31] Speaker 7: If you go back to 2018-19, we started a work
[1:03:37] Speaker 7: in the club that was focusing on the culture. And,
[1:03:43] Speaker 7: you know, culture is how we act together as human beings.
[1:03:48] Speaker 6: It started with the A-team team.
[1:03:52] Speaker 7: Working with the group of players that was here with
[1:03:55] Speaker 7: the coaching staff in many ways and get everyone on
[1:04:05] Speaker 7: board in the same culture you know if you come
[1:04:08] Speaker 7: here and we are about maybe trying to release the
[1:04:12] Speaker 7: potential in us as individuals as us as a team
[1:04:18] Speaker 7: as Bodeglimt as a club and if you come into
[1:04:22] Speaker 7: that and and you agree to that that's maybe the
[1:04:26] Speaker 7: direction uh then it comes with uh uh certain standards
[1:04:31] Speaker 7: so so um you know to to agree on the
[1:04:35] Speaker 7: direction and to agree on the standards i think we
[1:04:38] Speaker 7: we have done a good job over the last uh
[1:04:41] Speaker 7: seven years but it's a job that we work on every.
[1:04:45] Speaker 6: Day still.
[1:04:48] Speaker 1: Yeah i think it's also something that lots of other
[1:04:50] Speaker 1: football clubs might be envious of. You know, that's the
[1:04:53] Speaker 1: thing that sporting directors, you know, directors of football and,
[1:04:56] Speaker 1: you know, even people in executive roles want to institute
[1:04:59] Speaker 1: those standards and that culture. So I imagine there are
[1:05:02] Speaker 1: a lot of other teams that look on with envy.
[1:05:04] Speaker 1: Another thing I wanted to ask you about is people
[1:05:07] Speaker 1: might not know that Norway's league runs March to November,
[1:05:10] Speaker 1: maybe for, you know, obvious reasons, but that does mean
[1:05:13] Speaker 1: that Buda played in the Champions League during your off-season?
[1:05:17] Speaker 1: So what are the specific challenges of that? Because I
[1:05:19] Speaker 1: imagine there's quite a few as it relates to the
[1:05:21] Speaker 1: players and the coaches, maybe even the staff.
[1:05:23] Speaker 7: Yeah, and there is some downside to it, but it's
[1:05:28] Speaker 7: also maybe somehow an upside to it because, you know,
[1:05:32] Speaker 7: we can be in perfect cycles between the games. We
[1:05:38] Speaker 7: don't have any games that interrupt the preparation. So that's...
[1:05:45] Speaker 7: good thing but you know it's when we played again
[1:05:50] Speaker 7: in December it was a long time since we had
[1:05:52] Speaker 7: the last game so that's that's a downside to it
[1:05:56] Speaker 7: it is the way it is and I we don't
[1:05:58] Speaker 7: focus on on these things at all we we just
[1:06:02] Speaker 7: try to do the best with the season that we
[1:06:05] Speaker 7: have and then there's probably pros and cons in in.
[1:06:09] Speaker 1: In that It also seems like a lot of the
[1:06:11] Speaker 1: team's success is due to the coach, Kjetil Knutsson. What
[1:06:16] Speaker 1: can you say about him? I've heard so many compliments
[1:06:19] Speaker 1: about the way that he approaches managing the team. What
[1:06:21] Speaker 1: do you think of him?
[1:06:24] Speaker 7: Oh, I think a lot about him because we have
[1:06:27] Speaker 7: worked together now for, I don't know, maybe eight, nine years.
[1:06:33] Speaker 6: We are a small club, so we are pretty close.
[1:06:38] Speaker 7: And the heart and passion that he has for this
[1:06:42] Speaker 7: project is really remarkable. Also, you know, for the project
[1:06:51] Speaker 7: and for Bodeglimt and the journey that we had, he's
[1:06:55] Speaker 7: the key player, no.
[1:06:58] Speaker 6: Doubt about that.
[1:06:59] Speaker 7: An impressive coach, good friend, and.
[1:07:06] Speaker 6: A guy with true.
[1:07:07] Speaker 7: Passion to actually try to do things that... to release
[1:07:13] Speaker 7: the potential within us and the players.
[1:07:19] Speaker 1: Most people listening to this won't work at football clubs,
[1:07:21] Speaker 1: but they will work at places where they've been colleagues
[1:07:24] Speaker 1: with people for maybe for eight, nine years. What tips
[1:07:27] Speaker 1: do you have for people listening to help people maintain
[1:07:31] Speaker 1: relationships for that period of time? Because I also imagine...
[1:07:34] Speaker 1: You work at an elite football team. You've already mentioned
[1:07:38] Speaker 1: the standards are really high. That probably means that there's
[1:07:41] Speaker 1: a lot of big characters working there. How do you
[1:07:44] Speaker 1: manage your relationships with these close colleagues?
[1:07:47] Speaker 7: We agree on the direction and we agree on the standards.
[1:07:52] Speaker 7: And that is maybe the baseline of everything.
[1:07:56] Speaker 6: We argue like.
[1:07:59] Speaker 6: Uh, everyone else, probably.
[1:08:00] Speaker 7: More sometimes, uh, it's, uh, heated, but you know, we
[1:08:04] Speaker 7: know that we do it for the right purpose all
[1:08:07] Speaker 7: the time because we, we, we know the direction we,
[1:08:10] Speaker 7: we know, uh, the standards. So, uh, I, and we, we, uh,
[1:08:15] Speaker 7: achieve a lot together. Uh, this journey that we had
[1:08:19] Speaker 7: over the last eight, nine years is, uh, quite, uh,
[1:08:23] Speaker 7: spectacular when it comes to, uh, all the things that we,
[1:08:28] Speaker 7: all the stadiums that we've been to, all the things
[1:08:30] Speaker 7: that we have achieved. So I think actually that ties
[1:08:36] Speaker 7: bonds between people that's really strong. And that comes with
[1:08:41] Speaker 7: actually everyone putting everything on the table for.
[1:08:47] Speaker 6: The journey, if you understand. There's not much to argue
[1:08:51] Speaker 6: about then.
[1:08:52] Speaker 7: Because if you argue, it's about how can we make
[1:08:56] Speaker 7: things even better.
[1:08:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. I've often thought with footballers as well,
[1:09:00] Speaker 1: that it's kind of a strange job. I mean, you
[1:09:02] Speaker 1: were a footballer yourself, but footballers come and go. They
[1:09:05] Speaker 1: move clubs pretty regularly. In fact, working with colleagues for
[1:09:08] Speaker 1: nine years is probably relatively rare. It seems an unusual
[1:09:14] Speaker 1: environment for me because I imagine that you forge very
[1:09:17] Speaker 1: intense bonds with... teammates when you're playing alongside them that
[1:09:22] Speaker 1: maybe then move a year later and maybe you keep
[1:09:24] Speaker 1: in touch with them maybe you don't right what what
[1:09:27] Speaker 1: do you think about that as a as a kind
[1:09:28] Speaker 1: of working culture because it's really different to how a
[1:09:31] Speaker 1: lot of other people in the world work.
[1:09:33] Speaker 7: Yeah and I think that's a good description of it
[1:09:36] Speaker 7: because when you are on a team it's a big
[1:09:40] Speaker 7: turnover in football and in teams and from my career
[1:09:43] Speaker 7: you know I changed a lot of the times uh
[1:09:49] Speaker 7: or went to a new team and and you get
[1:09:51] Speaker 7: really really close friends for a year or two and
[1:09:54] Speaker 7: uh and uh then uh it's gone so so but
[1:10:01] Speaker 7: you get really really close uh and you enjoy the
[1:10:04] Speaker 7: time and uh and um yeah it's it's a weird
[1:10:09] Speaker 7: thing but it's also a a great thing because you
[1:10:13] Speaker 7: meet a lot of people uh you fight for the
[1:10:16] Speaker 7: same thing and then it's over, but then you meet
[1:10:20] Speaker 7: new people.
[1:10:21] Speaker 1: Do you think it makes you as a person, do
[1:10:23] Speaker 1: you think it makes you better at meeting people and
[1:10:26] Speaker 1: then also maybe better at saying goodbye to people?
[1:10:29] Speaker 7: For me personally, I think it's a good life to
[1:10:33] Speaker 7: have lived because it's a lot of good experience in,
[1:10:38] Speaker 7: you know, meet or.
[1:10:42] Speaker 6: Yeah, the, the, They change everything. They change all the time.
[1:10:47] Speaker 7: It's a good environment to be in because you learn
[1:10:50] Speaker 7: a lot and it makes you robust in a good way.
[1:10:55] Speaker 1: Here's a question I'm always interested in asking people that
[1:10:58] Speaker 1: work for teams that come from smaller leagues or smaller
[1:11:02] Speaker 1: teams in these big competitions like the Champions League. I
[1:11:05] Speaker 1: think it can be clearly very difficult for successful clubs
[1:11:08] Speaker 1: from those smaller leagues to adopt a different playing style.
[1:11:12] Speaker 1: So when you play domestically in Norway, for example, you
[1:11:14] Speaker 1: might be expected to dominate the ball for longer periods
[1:11:18] Speaker 1: of time or to be the dominant team on the pitch.
[1:11:20] Speaker 1: Whereas when you play against Man City in the Champions League,
[1:11:23] Speaker 1: you might expect to not have the ball and to
[1:11:25] Speaker 1: play almost in a completely different way. We see this
[1:11:28] Speaker 1: from lots of clubs around Europe. I think it's a
[1:11:30] Speaker 1: specific challenge that the bigger, biggest elite teams don't necessarily have.
[1:11:35] Speaker 1: What do you think about that? What's Buda's approach to
[1:11:38] Speaker 1: trying to deal with that?
[1:11:40] Speaker 6: Uh, I think you have a good point.
[1:11:42] Speaker 7: Uh, you know, now we have been playing in Europe
[1:11:44] Speaker 7: for many months and then suddenly we started the Norwegian league, uh, uh,
[1:11:52] Speaker 7: some weeks ago. And, uh, you know, the, the, the it's, uh,
[1:11:57] Speaker 7: it feels like a long time since we, we met
[1:11:59] Speaker 7: teams that just sits back and that makes a totally
[1:12:04] Speaker 7: new challenge for us that we haven't practiced in, I
[1:12:07] Speaker 7: don't know, four months. So, you know, the games in
[1:12:14] Speaker 7: Europe is often more open because the other team, they
[1:12:20] Speaker 7: want to be easily dominated. And if you meet City,
[1:12:28] Speaker 7: they don't accept to be dominated. But if we meet
[1:12:33] Speaker 7: a team in Norway, they could just fall back in
[1:12:37] Speaker 7: a low block and that's the game.
[1:12:40] Speaker 6: So it gives a new challenge to it.
[1:12:44] Speaker 7: And kind of for the first two, three games in Norway,
[1:12:49] Speaker 7: it was kind of a new game again. But, you know,
[1:12:53] Speaker 7: it's just a challenge and you have to prepare for
[1:12:57] Speaker 7: it and accept it and just move because that's just
[1:13:03] Speaker 7: the way it is.
[1:13:04] Speaker 6: But it's different, yeah.
[1:13:06] Speaker 1: I think fans, you know, myself included, we have a
[1:13:10] Speaker 1: tendency to think about football and planning from a short
[1:13:13] Speaker 1: term perspective. You know, we think about when we're in
[1:13:16] Speaker 1: the middle of a transfer window, for example, we think
[1:13:18] Speaker 1: about the players that are coming in and leaving then
[1:13:20] Speaker 1: and there. Whereas as a sporting director, that is not
[1:13:23] Speaker 1: the case, right? So how far in advance are you
[1:13:26] Speaker 1: preparing and what sort of things can you prepare really
[1:13:30] Speaker 1: far advanced? Do you think about the calendar through transfer windows,
[1:13:34] Speaker 1: for example?
[1:13:35] Speaker 7: Yeah, I think we monitor everything, uh, uh, quite, uh,
[1:13:42] Speaker 7: in advance. Some of this is football and you never
[1:13:45] Speaker 7: know in football. Uh, but, uh, for us, it's important
[1:13:50] Speaker 7: that we, uh, are, I think, you know, when we
[1:13:52] Speaker 7: closed the window in Norway now, uh, 15 days ago,
[1:13:56] Speaker 7: we kind of opened the summer window, if you understand. So, so, uh,
[1:14:02] Speaker 7: for us, it's, it's really important that we We have
[1:14:06] Speaker 7: a plan that's, you know, and the plan is just
[1:14:09] Speaker 7: to make Bodeglimt stronger through every window.
[1:14:13] Speaker 6: That is the plan.
[1:14:15] Speaker 7: So that's, you have to prepare and you have to
[1:14:18] Speaker 7: be in front. And if you plan to maybe let,
[1:14:24] Speaker 7: or you feel that, you know, there's going to come
[1:14:27] Speaker 7: something on the player that it's going to be hard
[1:14:29] Speaker 7: to reject, then you have to, you do a good
[1:14:32] Speaker 7: job you you already had the guy you have the
[1:14:34] Speaker 7: guy in-house that is going to replace him because that's
[1:14:39] Speaker 7: uh otherwise it's going to be really hard and and
[1:14:43] Speaker 7: expensive to.
[1:14:46] Speaker 1: To get a replacement yeah that makes sense do you
[1:14:49] Speaker 1: do negotiating when you sign new players i do everything
[1:14:54] Speaker 1: do you like negotiating and how do you how do
[1:14:56] Speaker 1: you approach it you got any tips.
[1:14:58] Speaker 7: That's the fun part about my job is not negotiating
[1:15:02] Speaker 7: and stuff like this. It's working with the players. It's
[1:15:05] Speaker 7: creating the culture. It's actually building something. That gives me
[1:15:09] Speaker 7: a lot of joy. The negotiation can be.
[1:15:18] Speaker 6: Frustrating. You have to be patient.
[1:15:22] Speaker 7: But it's a part of the job and it's no problem,
[1:15:26] Speaker 7: but it's not the fun part of it.
[1:15:28] Speaker 1: When's your downtime during the year? Because the friends I
[1:15:31] Speaker 1: have that work at football clubs that also focus on transfers,
[1:15:35] Speaker 1: they just seem to be busy all the time. And
[1:15:36] Speaker 1: maybe the players get a bit of a break over
[1:15:38] Speaker 1: the summer, but that's when they really start to get busy.
[1:15:42] Speaker 6: Yeah, good question.
[1:15:49] Speaker 7: I feel like I'm working for Budeglimt every day of
[1:15:54] Speaker 7: the year. but of course there, there is, uh, and, uh,
[1:15:59] Speaker 7: you know, in, in, uh, there, there, there are some
[1:16:03] Speaker 7: periods that are calmer than others, but you kind of,
[1:16:06] Speaker 7: you have to put everything into this, uh, and that's
[1:16:09] Speaker 7: what we do here.
[1:16:10] Speaker 6: So, uh, this year, because of the world cup.
[1:16:14] Speaker 7: I'm actually able to go to, to, uh, Italy in
[1:16:18] Speaker 7: the start of June with my family. And that's maybe
[1:16:22] Speaker 7: the first time in, uh, Many, many years that we
[1:16:26] Speaker 7: have done that in the summer.
[1:16:27] Speaker 1: I just have two more quick questions. These are questions
[1:16:29] Speaker 1: I ask everybody. The first is, what's the most emotional
[1:16:35] Speaker 1: experience you've ever had in working in football, either as
[1:16:37] Speaker 1: a player or in your role now?
[1:16:40] Speaker 7: Oh, I find it harder and harder to watch our games.
[1:16:46] Speaker 7: So it's quite emotional sometimes. But the one that maybe
[1:16:50] Speaker 7: stands out it's actually maybe the first time I realized
[1:16:54] Speaker 7: that we're going to become the champions of Norway.
[1:16:57] Speaker 6: The feeling in that game was quite awesome.
[1:17:00] Speaker 3: That's amazing.
[1:17:01] Speaker 1: Okay, cool. And then the last question would be, if
[1:17:04] Speaker 1: you could ask any question to anyone else in football,
[1:17:08] Speaker 1: so maybe one of your heroes or someone you look
[1:17:10] Speaker 1: up to, who would you ask and what would the
[1:17:12] Speaker 1: question be?
[1:17:12] Speaker 7: I would love to ask a question to Eric Cantona
[1:17:16] Speaker 7: about something.
[1:17:18] Speaker 8: Yes.
[1:17:19] Speaker 1: Any question would be fine, Derek Cantona, I'm sure. That
[1:17:23] Speaker 1: would be great. Okay, do you think I've missed asking
[1:17:25] Speaker 1: you anything? No. How would you rate my interviewing skills
[1:17:29] Speaker 1: out of 10?
[1:17:33] Speaker 6: Seven.
[1:17:33] Speaker 1: Okay, there's room for improvement. That's not bad. That's not bad. Horvath,
[1:17:37] Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Really, really appreciate
[1:17:40] Speaker 1: your time.
[1:17:40] Speaker 6: Thank you.
[1:17:41] Speaker 2: There we go.
[1:17:43] Speaker 1: I think he warmed up. Seven out of 10 for
[1:17:45] Speaker 1: my interviewing technique. When you've had a glow up, you
[1:17:49] Speaker 1: Nine and a half out of ten, yeah. Although when
[1:17:50] Speaker 1: I've had a glow-up, I think my questions will get worse.
[1:17:53] Speaker 1: But you'll look better. You've got to balance that. Pretty privileged.
[1:17:55] Speaker 1: You'll look better, and then, yeah, people don't mind.
[1:17:57] Speaker 2: And you'll get lax. You'll just assume that you can.
[1:18:00] Speaker 1: I'm pretty lax already.
[1:18:01] Speaker 4: You'll have a skin fade.
[1:18:02] Speaker 1: I mean, what kind of person asks someone they're interviewing
[1:18:05] Speaker 1: to rate their interview?
[1:18:09] Speaker 3: One who's very secure in their own head.
[1:18:11] Speaker 1: Only a f * * * ing maniac does that.
[1:18:13] Speaker 2: I've just had an email from my publisher.
[1:18:16] Speaker 1: What did they say, John?
[1:18:16] Speaker 2: They said, do feel free to share the video when
[1:18:19] Speaker 2: you're ready to. So I think.
[1:18:21] Speaker 1: At the end of the hour, 40-minute long podcast?
[1:18:23] Speaker 4: I might save it for the next one, no?
[1:18:25] Speaker 2: Maybe.
[1:18:25] Speaker 1: Come on, no.
[1:18:26] Speaker 4: You've teased it.
[1:18:26] Speaker 1: This is a real soft launch. I could send Steve
[1:18:29] Speaker 1: the video. This is so soft, you could eat it
[1:18:30] Speaker 1: without teeth, John. Come on.
[1:18:32] Speaker 2: Do you want me to actually announce? Absolutely.
[1:18:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, I want you to. Look into your camera. Over here.
[1:18:38] Speaker 2: So the book is called The Spectre of Pep, How
[1:18:41] Speaker 2: Guardiola Haunts Modern Football Tactics. And it's out in August
[1:18:49] Speaker 2: the 20th, actually. Exactly, 2026. And it's available for pre-order now.
[1:18:53] Speaker 2: I'm going to put out a video in a little
[1:18:55] Speaker 2: while on my social, so no doubt you'll see it
[1:18:57] Speaker 2: there and there's links to order it from there.
[1:18:59] Speaker 6: Incredible.
[1:19:00] Speaker 1: And let me tell you, man, for the 6% of
[1:19:02] Speaker 1: people that made it all the way to the end
[1:19:03] Speaker 1: of this episode, they're going to love that. That's a
[1:19:06] Speaker 1: real exclusive right there.
[1:19:07] Speaker 4: They're the ride or die's.
[1:19:08] Speaker 1: So that's Pep Guardiola. No, that's the Pepter of Speck.
[1:19:14] Speaker 1: Or as I will be calling it for the remainder
[1:19:17] Speaker 1: of my life, Harry Potter and the Spectre of Pep.
[1:19:19] Speaker 1: I think that's going to be my joint name for it. Anyway, listen, John,
[1:19:22] Speaker 1: thank you very much.
[1:19:23] Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
[1:19:23] Speaker 1: Congratulations.
[1:19:24] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[1:19:25] Speaker 1: Maureen, when you're ready to soft launch your book, you
[1:19:27] Speaker 1: know exactly where to come at the end of an
[1:19:29] Speaker 1: hour and a 30 long episode. Did you enjoy yourself today?
[1:19:31] Speaker 4: I had a lot of fun.
[1:19:33] Speaker 1: Rate my questions out of 10?
[1:19:33] Speaker 4: The globe is going to happen soon.
[1:19:36] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:19:37] Speaker 4: I'm going to be responsible for it. Okay.
[1:19:39] Speaker 2: Okay.
[1:19:39] Speaker 1: Steve was here also. Hello. Thanks so much. And we
[1:19:43] Speaker 1: are back. Yes, we're back with Ring for Analysis, all
[1:19:45] Speaker 1: about Leicester. So if you're a Leicester City fan or
[1:19:47] Speaker 1: indeed not, and I hope not because I think there's
[1:19:50] Speaker 1: not that many of them listening. So either way, if
[1:19:53] Speaker 1: you are or not, please listen to that. And also
[1:19:56] Speaker 1: worth saying, there is no live stream. This is a
[1:19:58] Speaker 1: reminder because I will have said this in the intro.
[1:19:59] Speaker 1: There's no live stream on Sunday because of resourcing issues
[1:20:03] Speaker 1: and the straight of all moves.
[1:20:04] Speaker 2: And there's no football on Sunday.
[1:20:06] Speaker 1: We're playing on Sunday. There's a bunch of games. There's
[1:20:08] Speaker 1: Premier League and FA Cup. It really is just resourcing issues.
[1:20:11] Speaker 2: There's no Premier League on Sunday.
[1:20:12] Speaker 1: Yeah, there is.
[1:20:13] Speaker 3: No, there isn't.
[1:20:14] Speaker 1: No, there isn't.
[1:20:14] Speaker 3: No, FA Cup.
[1:20:16] Speaker 1: The episode's already ended, though. I think probably the episode's
[1:20:19] Speaker 1: already ended.
[1:20:20] Speaker 3: Do you know why John knows this, though?
[1:20:21] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:20:21] Speaker 3: He knows this, obviously, because he's his boys, his Yorkshire boys.
[1:20:24] Speaker 4: You're so unexcited, but I thought you'd be gassed.
[1:20:27] Speaker 1: He doesn't care.
[1:20:27] Speaker 8: He doesn't care.
[1:20:29] Speaker 1: He's a Bournemouth fan now. He's a trader. He's a trader.
[1:20:32] Speaker 2: I'm not even that anymore.
[1:20:33] Speaker 1: No, he's going to become an athletic club fan.
[1:20:35] Speaker 2: I'm a child of the universe now.
[1:20:38] Speaker 1: No, not really.
[1:20:39] Speaker 2: I do enjoy football.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.