# Episode 7: Donna

An episode of [The Poisoned Wife](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6802159331), 8 Oct 2026, 52 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/7e151776-f7a0-45fe-8666-b4a500480d35/32ae7e88-3c76-4887-9633-b4cf0055ea86/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=fe9d03b3-aa69-4a29-9315-b4a5004a32d9

Donna reveals she received a secret letter from Ray after Rosslyn's death. The then teenager tells Hedley and Karina that she didn't give it to police when they came to her home with a search warrant. Donna recalls how the letter "freaked her out" and regrets not handing it over. Donna asks herself whether things might have turned out differently if she and others had "not fought for Ray" had they known about his lies at the time. Back in Bendigo, Rex tells Hedley and Karina why the inscription on the headstone of Rosslyn's grave infuriates him. Subscribers hear new episodes of The Poisoned Wife first. Listen at thepoisonedwife.com, in The Australian’s app or search for The Poisoned Wife on Apple Podcasts to connect your subscription. Join the conversation and hear more from Hedley Thomas in The Poisoned Wife Podcast Official Discussion Group on Facebook Do you know more? Contact the team at thepoisonedwife@theaustralian.com.au See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast contains coarse language and
[0:04] Speaker 1: adult themes. The Poisoned Wife is a podcast investigation brought
[0:09] Speaker 1: to you by me, Hedley Thomas, and The Australian. Subscribers
[0:14] Speaker 1: to The Australian hear episodes first on The Australian's app
[0:18] Speaker 1: at thepoisonedwife.com and Apple Podcasts.
[0:35] Speaker 2: Every single piece of paper I got about this case,
[0:37] Speaker 2: you have now got.
[0:39] Speaker 3: He would have known that she would have died a
[0:41] Speaker 3: really painful death.
[0:43] Speaker 4: She always wanted to be a mother.
[0:46] Speaker 5: Always.
[0:47] Speaker 6: I didn't do it. I had nothing to do with
[0:50] Speaker 6: Rosalind's death.
[0:51] Speaker 3: I was a 16-year-old girl who had a crush on
[0:55] Speaker 3: an older married man.
[0:56] Speaker 6: I just think it's all so cruel.
[1:00] Speaker 1: How would you have been trying to protect him? Sometimes
[1:11] Speaker 1: the best laid plans in journalism can go awry and
[1:14] Speaker 1: you can question whether those plans were just wishful thinking
[1:18] Speaker 1: in the first place. On a chilly morning a month
[1:21] Speaker 1: before the first episode in this podcast series, Karina Berger
[1:26] Speaker 1: and I stood at the front door of Donna Manalik's home.
[1:30] Speaker 1: In a lengthy off-the-record conversation in this home the night before,
[1:35] Speaker 1: We had answered Donna's questions while explaining our commitment to
[1:39] Speaker 1: this long unsolved case. We told her about the research
[1:43] Speaker 1: that we had done already, the brief of evidence that
[1:46] Speaker 1: we had studied, the interviews we'd done, and how we
[1:50] Speaker 1: had spoken to her mother, Glenys, and stepfather, Alf, from
[1:54] Speaker 1: whom Donna has been estranged for many years. And at
[1:58] Speaker 1: the end of the night, Donna agreed to be interviewed
[2:00] Speaker 1: by us the next morning. She would talk about the
[2:04] Speaker 1: girl she was in 1986, about her friend Roslyn and
[2:08] Speaker 1: Roz's husband Ray McQueen, and a murder investigation in which
[2:12] Speaker 1: Donna became one of the suspects. Corrina and I knew
[2:16] Speaker 1: it would be a difficult morning. We came four-armed, with microphones, laptops,
[2:22] Speaker 1: a mental checklist of topics and questions, and cakes from
[2:26] Speaker 1: the local café. But nobody answered the front door. We
[2:34] Speaker 1: tried again, and nobody came. Had Donna changed her mind?
[2:39] Speaker 1: I was starting to fear the worst. Finally, her husband
[2:43] Speaker 1: Kevin opened the door. He looked happy to see us.
[2:47] Speaker 1: He and Donna hadn't heard the knocking. They'd lost track
[2:50] Speaker 1: of the time. They were at the back of their
[2:53] Speaker 1: property in their special place, feeding their pet ducks in
[2:57] Speaker 1: a beautiful garden with man-made ponds. They built all of
[3:01] Speaker 1: this as a memorial to their baby daughter. Tragically, she
[3:06] Speaker 1: had drowned in this home while in the bath with
[3:08] Speaker 1: her sister.
[3:11] Speaker 6: So the roots of a grass come down to about here.
[3:14] Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I see.
[3:15] Speaker 6: And it's just growing there.
[3:16] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's quite incredible.
[3:17] Speaker 7: It's amazing.
[3:17] Speaker 8: It's a little micro system, isn't it?
[3:20] Speaker 4: Yeah, a little succulent. That's nice. Well, your ducks are beautiful.
[3:27] Speaker 1: Donna and Kevin offered us refreshments and guided us to
[3:30] Speaker 1: the kitchen table. Testing one, two. So how's that going?
[3:35] Speaker 1: That's picking everything up.
[3:36] Speaker 6: This is going.
[3:37] Speaker 1: And Donna, just so you know, we haven't come with
[3:40] Speaker 1: a structured, prepared list of questions. We just want to
[3:44] Speaker 1: make it as relaxed as possible because we know you
[3:48] Speaker 1: are anxious about this. A small part of our interview
[3:52] Speaker 1: with Donna was published near the end of episode one.
[3:55] Speaker 1: There is a lot more. By 9.30am, our small talk
[4:00] Speaker 1: was over. First of all, I just wanted to thank
[4:02] Speaker 1: you for agreeing to see us at such short notice
[4:05] Speaker 1: and take this step because I know it's difficult. Out
[4:08] Speaker 1: of the blue, we've come to see you 40 years
[4:11] Speaker 1: after Roz died. Probably the last thing you were expecting.
[4:16] Speaker 1: We would record with Donna and Kevin for almost four hours.
[4:21] Speaker 1: When we had almost run out of questions about her
[4:24] Speaker 1: reflections on 1986... and Ros and Ray McQueen. Donna shared
[4:29] Speaker 1: something which stayed with us long after we had left
[4:32] Speaker 1: their place. Here's what she shared.
[4:36] Speaker 3: As time has gone on from that time, I have
[4:41] Speaker 3: slowly developed a kind of interest in karma, I guess,
[4:45] Speaker 3: and different things that have not been great that's happened
[4:50] Speaker 3: in our life I've felt could be a.
[4:53] Speaker 6: Karmic debt paid. because of I did this to her.
[4:58] Speaker 4: Oh, that's a terrible burden, Donna.
[5:00] Speaker 3: Our daughter was 14 months old when she died.
[5:08] Speaker 1: In her grief, Donna has attributed the loss of her
[5:11] Speaker 1: baby girl to Donna's teenage connection to Ray 40 years ago.
[5:15] Speaker 1: In Donna's mind, the universe has somehow punished her for
[5:20] Speaker 1: the death of Roz and Roz's unborn baby, Christopher.
[5:25] Speaker 6: And I felt that was a penance because she lost
[5:28] Speaker 6: her child.
[5:30] Speaker 1: Donna was momentarily distracted when their baby, Taylor, fell backwards
[5:35] Speaker 1: in the bath she was having with her toddler sister.
[5:39] Speaker 1: There was just 20 centimetres of water in the bath,
[5:42] Speaker 1: but that was all it took.
[5:45] Speaker 3: And that was my payment for my part in that,
[5:50] Speaker 3: was that I lose mine as well.
[5:54] Speaker 1: You need to stop blaming yourself.
[5:57] Speaker 6: I concur, Donny.
[5:59] Speaker 1: Donna rarely returns to Bendigo and the rural community of Lockwood.
[6:04] Speaker 1: She left those places behind more than 30 years ago.
[6:09] Speaker 1: Donna spoke of her shock after Ray was charged with
[6:12] Speaker 1: Roslyn's murder at a time when she believed in the
[6:16] Speaker 1: life insurance salesman who wanted her to come and live
[6:19] Speaker 1: with him. And Donna believed Ray's story that Ros had cancer.
[6:25] Speaker 1: Donna remembered the last serious conversation she had with Ray
[6:29] Speaker 1: when Ros was alive. It was at tennis on the
[6:32] Speaker 1: Monday evening and Donna had told Ray that Ros was
[6:36] Speaker 1: concerned about a divorce.
[6:39] Speaker 3: I said to her that I'd talk to him about it,
[6:42] Speaker 3: reassuring a married woman that I'll talk to her husband
[6:46] Speaker 3: about if he's going to leave her or not.
[6:49] Speaker 6: When you look back at it like that, that's really backwards.
[6:54] Speaker 1: The morning after those disclosures at tennis, Ros was dead.
[6:59] Speaker 3: And I knew I wanted to bring it up because
[7:01] Speaker 3: I knew she was really upset.
[7:03] Speaker 6: We were hitting the tennis.
[7:04] Speaker 3: Ball, back and forth, and I can remember saying, you
[7:10] Speaker 3: do know that Ros is worried about you leaving her.
[7:13] Speaker 6: And he just went, I couldn't afford it.
[7:18] Speaker 3: And then it was just left. It was I couldn't
[7:20] Speaker 3: afford it if I wanted to, even if I wanted to.
[7:24] Speaker 3: is what he said.
[7:26] Speaker 6: Just a very flippant comment.
[7:29] Speaker 8: After tennis, you'd asked Ray if you were going back
[7:33] Speaker 8: to their place to visit Roz?
[7:34] Speaker 6: That's right. And he said, no, she's unwell. She's too unwell.
[7:39] Speaker 4: Did he tell you what was wrong with her?
[7:41] Speaker 8: No.
[7:43] Speaker 3: Because it wasn't like she was going to divorce him.
[7:46] Speaker 3: She was scared that he was going to divorce her.
[7:50] Speaker 3: That would be a word I'd put to Roz.
[7:54] Speaker 6: He's vulnerable.
[7:55] Speaker 1: What about to yourself? No. You were vulnerable.
[7:59] Speaker 6: Yeah, but I didn't see myself as that.
[8:02] Speaker 1: Do you see yourself as that now?
[8:04] Speaker 6: I don't know.
[8:05] Speaker 3: There's always that grown-up in the back of your head saying,
[8:10] Speaker 3: you should have seen this. I didn't know what physical
[8:14] Speaker 3: love was, but the bond that we had, and I
[8:19] Speaker 3: will say.
[8:19] Speaker 6: Bond, that we had I felt was very, very strong.
[8:24] Speaker 3: And I took offence to people saying that I was
[8:28] Speaker 3: too young to know what real love was. And I
[8:32] Speaker 3: think back and think, how naive were you to think
[8:37] Speaker 3: that you could have this friendship with this person? And
[8:41] Speaker 3: to me, that's what it was, regardless of if I
[8:44] Speaker 3: secretly was attracted to him. I don't know if it's
[8:49] Speaker 3: anxieties passed on from one generation to another. But I
[8:53] Speaker 3: know I had it at a very young age. I
[8:56] Speaker 3: was a scared girl. I was always scared at school.
[9:01] Speaker 3: Nervous that somebody didn't like me or didn't want to
[9:04] Speaker 3: play with me because my clothes weren't as nice as
[9:06] Speaker 3: their clothes. Because I had a panic attack when I
[9:09] Speaker 3: was in grade four or five.
[9:10] Speaker 6: At school and couldn't breathe.
[9:15] Speaker 1: Nine years before Karina and I turned up at Donna's house,
[9:19] Speaker 1: she was visited there by Rex Bakes. He went in 2017.
[9:23] Speaker 1: I flew there expressly to see Donna. Donna wasn't forewarned
[9:30] Speaker 1: about that visit either. When we met Rex in Brisbane
[9:34] Speaker 1: while preparing for this podcast investigation, he told us more
[9:38] Speaker 1: about it. He'd made a diary note in 2017 and
[9:42] Speaker 1: it was in the suitcase.
[9:44] Speaker 2: She answered the door and I said, I've come to
[9:46] Speaker 2: see you about Rosalind. And so she started talking about
[9:50] Speaker 2: Rosalind XYZ. I said, no, Rosalind McQueen. So she was
[9:56] Speaker 2: quite taken aback. Did you go in for a cup
[9:58] Speaker 2: of tea? I was there for a long time. I
[10:03] Speaker 2: could see straight away that she was guarded and her
[10:08] Speaker 2: husband was there. And so if she was passing on
[10:12] Speaker 2: or canoodling with Ray McQueen, she wasn't perhaps very happy
[10:18] Speaker 2: for her husband to hear that. I knew I was doomed,
[10:22] Speaker 2: but I kept going. I sort of had to reassure
[10:25] Speaker 2: her that I was who I said I was.
[10:29] Speaker 1: What happened when you went back the next day?
[10:31] Speaker 2: Her husband recorded the proceedings. He didn't interfere. I suppose
[10:39] Speaker 2: he was wondering what's going to be said next. And
[10:44] Speaker 2: that's just a few jottings I made.
[10:47] Speaker 1: You are better at reading your handwriting than anyone else.
[10:51] Speaker 1: Can you read that sentence again?
[10:52] Speaker 2: Donna is now reflecting back on the events of 1986
[10:58] Speaker 2: and knew that eventually the death of Roz would resurface.
[11:04] Speaker 2: She feels that Ray was using his office to make
[11:08] Speaker 2: an alibi at the time.
[11:11] Speaker 1: Rex and Donna were on the same page there.
[11:15] Speaker 2: Ray doesn't want to be the first person to find
[11:19] Speaker 2: his deceased wife because immediately the thought's going to go
[11:26] Speaker 2: through the police's mind that you did it and there
[11:30] Speaker 2: was no one else involved. So he had the perfect
[11:33] Speaker 2: alibi and to reinforce that alibi he gets Vin McKenzie
[11:37] Speaker 2: to go down there so that Ray is nowhere near
[11:41] Speaker 2: the scene. There's no smoking gun anywhere. He's not the
[11:45] Speaker 2: first to find her. And it worked well to start
[11:48] Speaker 2: off with.
[11:50] Speaker 1: And you've written, Ray handed Donna a letter.
[11:54] Speaker 2: Ray proposed to Donna in writing. I said, where's the letter?
[12:00] Speaker 2: She said, I don't have it anymore.
[12:02] Speaker 1: Have you been back to see Donna since then? No way.
[12:05] Speaker 2: Well, I think it would be best to leave Sleeping
[12:10] Speaker 2: Dogs live. If we did go back, Donna should be
[12:14] Speaker 2: spoken to.
[12:15] Speaker 1: By a female.
[12:18] Speaker 4: What did you know about Ros having cancer?
[12:21] Speaker 3: I only knew that he'd told me that she had
[12:26] Speaker 3: been asked to go and see a doctor after an
[12:28] Speaker 3: examination and told that she'd had cervical cancer.
[12:32] Speaker 8: Did he ask you to keep that information close?
[12:35] Speaker 6: I think he did, but I'm not sure.
[12:39] Speaker 1: Did you form the impression that it was serious?
[12:41] Speaker 3: Yes, but I mean, I was 16. Cancer's death back then.
[12:48] Speaker 1: Donna recalled that Ray had told her about the purported
[12:52] Speaker 1: cancer in the privacy of a shed at the back
[12:55] Speaker 1: of the Manalik property. Ray and Roz had come over
[12:58] Speaker 1: for a visit, but Ray led Donna away from the
[13:01] Speaker 1: adults to the shed. It had a snooker table. Roz
[13:06] Speaker 1: was in the house with Alf and Glenis.
[13:09] Speaker 3: And then when he told me about the cancer, I
[13:13] Speaker 3: presume she must have been up there telling Mum and Dad,
[13:19] Speaker 3: and us being down the shed was to get me
[13:22] Speaker 3: away so Ros could have the private time with Mum
[13:25] Speaker 3: and Dad.
[13:25] Speaker 6: To tell them.
[13:28] Speaker 1: Was Ros friendly to you?
[13:30] Speaker 3: I think Ros was friendly to everybody. That was just
[13:33] Speaker 3: her nature. Idolised Jodie. Absolutely loved her. Snuggling, cuddling.
[13:41] Speaker 6: But then she was very good with his children as well.
[13:45] Speaker 1: And at this time you've got this 16-year-old girl's secret
[13:49] Speaker 1: crush on him which you haven't disclosed to him.
[13:53] Speaker 6: No.
[13:55] Speaker 3: Rosalind had rang my mum and asked if I could
[13:58] Speaker 3: not go there so often because it was causing issues
[14:03] Speaker 3: with her and Ray and their relationship. But then in
[14:07] Speaker 3: the following week she would ring my mum and ask
[14:10] Speaker 3: if it was okay if I come over. My mum
[14:14] Speaker 3: had said that when she rang, she said, yes, he's
[14:18] Speaker 3: in a bad mood and you're the only one that
[14:21] Speaker 3: can get him out of his bad moods. It sounds
[14:25] Speaker 3: like a fearful woman, like, oh, my God, I've done
[14:31] Speaker 3: something and I've stuffed it up and now I've got
[14:34] Speaker 3: to try and fix it because I'm in big trouble.
[14:38] Speaker 3: I didn't know anything of the background that was going
[14:40] Speaker 3: on in their relationship and the turbulence and things like that.
[14:44] Speaker 3: I'm only learning now about the impact of my presence
[14:49] Speaker 3: in that house and what a negative thing it was
[14:52] Speaker 3: for Roslyn. I don't think at that age I could
[14:58] Speaker 3: really believe that I would ever, as a 16-year-old girl,
[15:02] Speaker 3: have an impact on an adult's relationship.
[15:05] Speaker 8: To me, this is starting to sound like a huge
[15:08] Speaker 8: red flag for your parents.
[15:11] Speaker 3: All these things pop into your head and you try
[15:13] Speaker 3: and analyse. I was laying there last night wondering, why
[15:17] Speaker 3: did they not do more? Why did they not see
[15:20] Speaker 3: more of what he was doing?
[15:23] Speaker 5: And why you didn't pick things up and if you
[15:28] Speaker 5: did feel a little uncomfortable, why didn't you go the
[15:32] Speaker 5: other way rather than just.
[15:35] Speaker 6: Go with the flow.
[15:38] Speaker 1: Donna recalled her mother's shock while talking on the phone
[15:41] Speaker 1: on the evening of Tuesday, April 1, 1986.
[15:44] Speaker 3: I hadn't been home from work very long. Mum had
[15:50] Speaker 3: gotten a call and seemed quite distressed. She got off
[15:56] Speaker 3: the phone and said that Ros had died and I've just,
[16:01] Speaker 3: I think I've gone, oh my God, it must have
[16:03] Speaker 3: been the cancer and that's when Mum said, What? And
[16:07] Speaker 3: I said, it must have been the cancer. She said,
[16:08] Speaker 3: what cancer? I said, for us it's cervical cancer. They
[16:13] Speaker 3: didn't even know.
[16:14] Speaker 1: And now you know that there was no cancer.
[16:18] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[16:20] Speaker 1: I asked Donna about being a suspect in the early
[16:23] Speaker 1: stages of the homicide investigation.
[16:25] Speaker 3: They come knocking on the door and mum and dad
[16:28] Speaker 3: weren't home, so I was home by myself. And they
[16:32] Speaker 3: issued me a warrant. to search the premises and that
[16:38] Speaker 3: I was to be there when they did each room.
[16:43] Speaker 6: And they did my room.
[16:46] Speaker 3: They pulled all the drawers and underwear and clothes out
[16:50] Speaker 3: and chucked them on the floor and did a small
[16:53] Speaker 3: search of mum and dad's room, I think, and a
[16:56] Speaker 3: few of the cupboards under the sink.
[16:58] Speaker 6: And then they left.
[17:00] Speaker 1: Before Ray was charged, he had given Donna a private letter.
[17:05] Speaker 1: Karina asked Donna about this.
[17:08] Speaker 8: You had a letter from Ray in your bedroom at
[17:13] Speaker 8: this time and you were surprised that the police didn't
[17:16] Speaker 8: find it.
[17:17] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[17:18] Speaker 3: There was a letter he'd written to me and I've
[17:21] Speaker 3: read the letter and it was like four pages or something.
[17:26] Speaker 6: One thing that really struck me.
[17:28] Speaker 3: Was he was saying that it was almost like as
[17:32] Speaker 3: soon as he met me he knew that he had.
[17:34] Speaker 6: Feelings for me.
[17:36] Speaker 3: And straightaway I thought that was weird because I would
[17:40] Speaker 3: have been 14. I've felt this way for you for
[17:44] Speaker 3: the last two years or something like that. He wrote
[17:48] Speaker 3: that and that was his way of letting me know
[17:52] Speaker 3: how much.
[17:54] Speaker 6: He cared for me.
[17:55] Speaker 3: That part really creeped me out a bit. To put
[18:00] Speaker 3: in that he'd had feelings for me from such a
[18:04] Speaker 3: young age.
[18:07] Speaker 1: And the letter was given to you after Ros died.
[18:10] Speaker 2: Yep.
[18:11] Speaker 1: But before you understood that she'd died from strychnine, so
[18:14] Speaker 1: before the police investigated. Yeah, yeah.
[18:17] Speaker 3: I held onto it for a couple of years and
[18:19] Speaker 3: then I made a point of getting rid of it
[18:21] Speaker 3: because I needed to move forward instead of just dwelling
[18:26] Speaker 3: on this thing that had impacted all our lives so much.
[18:30] Speaker 1: Do you know why the police didn't find the letter? No.
[18:34] Speaker 1: Had you concealed it somewhere?
[18:37] Speaker 6: If I did, it was only from my parents.
[18:40] Speaker 3: It would have just been up the top of my
[18:42] Speaker 3: wardrobe under some clothes.
[18:45] Speaker 1: Do you remember now why you didn't say to the police, look,
[18:50] Speaker 1: you're probably looking for something like this? I got this
[18:53] Speaker 1: letter from him.
[18:54] Speaker 3: I think I would have wanted to protect him back
[18:57] Speaker 3: then and gone, oh, no, if they see this, they're
[19:00] Speaker 3: going to get the wrong idea.
[19:03] Speaker 1: Do you have any regrets now, Donna, that you didn't
[19:05] Speaker 1: produce that letter to the police? Yeah.
[19:09] Speaker 6: I wish I hadn't.
[19:09] Speaker 3: It would have shown the grooming process and how gross
[19:14] Speaker 3: and sick he was. Probably means more now, like, how
[19:21] Speaker 3: gross that was. But it certainly had a big impact
[19:25] Speaker 3: on me back then as well. Hindsight's a wonderful thing.
[19:31] Speaker 1: And.
[19:31] Speaker 3: The feelings I was feeling back then, I think I
[19:35] Speaker 3: must have been very confused. The police coming in, telling
[19:40] Speaker 3: me that they think he killed his wife so he
[19:44] Speaker 3: could then be with me. How stupid was I and gullible?
[19:51] Speaker 3: But when you live it, you don't see it. You're
[19:52] Speaker 3: just too close. I don't even think my parents seen
[19:56] Speaker 3: it till right till the end.
[20:00] Speaker 1: I asked Donna whether she had protected him in any
[20:03] Speaker 1: other way. Was there anything she'd withheld that might have
[20:07] Speaker 1: made a difference to the strength of the evidence if
[20:10] Speaker 1: she had disclosed it to the police?
[20:13] Speaker 3: I don't think so, because if there was, I wouldn't
[20:18] Speaker 3: have to think about it and I could have just
[20:20] Speaker 3: told you straight away. But I don't think so.
[20:24] Speaker 1: He never gave you any indication that he had murdered
[20:28] Speaker 1: his wife? No. He never suggested to you before Ros
[20:32] Speaker 1: died that he might try and do away with her?
[20:34] Speaker 3: No, because I would have told Mum and Dad straight
[20:36] Speaker 3: away and certainly wouldn't have gone back there.
[20:40] Speaker 1: The police were strongly of the view that Ray killed
[20:45] Speaker 1: his wife because he was infatuated with you.
[20:48] Speaker 3: I did have feelings for him beyond friendship back then
[20:54] Speaker 3: in a 16-year-old's head. So that day in the car
[20:59] Speaker 3: at Lake Maroona when he said to me that he wants...
[21:03] Speaker 3: A permanent relationship for me to go and live with
[21:05] Speaker 3: him just scared me.
[21:09] Speaker 8: It was interesting when we spoke to your mum, she
[21:12] Speaker 8: said he did not ask, he told us what was
[21:16] Speaker 8: going to happen.
[21:18] Speaker 3: I sat in the lounge room and did not want
[21:21] Speaker 3: to be a part of that conversation at all.
[21:24] Speaker 8: It wasn't so much a seeking of permission, but it
[21:27] Speaker 8: was him saying Donna is coming to live with me.
[21:30] Speaker 6: But in my head.
[21:32] Speaker 3: My 16-year-old head was like, he's my friend and I
[21:37] Speaker 3: will stand by him. And if this is what I've
[21:39] Speaker 3: got to do to stand by him, then this is
[21:41] Speaker 3: what I will do.
[21:43] Speaker 1: Early in the homicide investigation, Ray told Donna of his
[21:47] Speaker 1: concern that he appeared to be Detective Senior Sergeant Ron
[21:51] Speaker 1: Blackshaw's only target.
[21:54] Speaker 3: He'd come up to work and had asked me if
[21:58] Speaker 3: I could talk to him outside. We sat in his car.
[22:03] Speaker 3: And he said to me that they think he's killed
[22:07] Speaker 3: her for the insurance. And then he pulls out a
[22:11] Speaker 3: checkbook and gives it to me. He goes, look, look,
[22:14] Speaker 3: look through it. I go, what do I want this for? Look,
[22:18] Speaker 3: make sure. I haven't made any purchases or deposits on
[22:21] Speaker 3: a boat or anything like that.
[22:23] Speaker 6: He was panicked.
[22:25] Speaker 3: He told me that one of his friends had overheard
[22:31] Speaker 3: the police the day Roz was found, say to another copper,
[22:37] Speaker 3: I don't know if he's done it, but I'm going
[22:39] Speaker 3: to get this bastard for this.
[22:42] Speaker 4: Do you remember how you felt when he was charged?
[22:47] Speaker 6: I was absolutely gutted.
[22:48] Speaker 3: That they could possibly think this.
[22:53] Speaker 6: So sad inside.
[22:57] Speaker 3: Ray and I had met a couple of times, unbeknownst
[23:00] Speaker 3: to anyone else, and it was just conversations on, How
[23:05] Speaker 3: are you?
[23:05] Speaker 6: Are you doing okay?
[23:09] Speaker 1: But were you meeting him secretly?
[23:11] Speaker 8: Yeah.
[23:13] Speaker 3: I can remember thinking, this is my friend and he's
[23:16] Speaker 3: hurting now and I need to be there for him.
[23:20] Speaker 8: You had a really invasive medical examination, police interview statements,
[23:25] Speaker 8: giving evidence at an inquest.
[23:27] Speaker 4: These are not typical things for a 17-year-old girl.
[23:31] Speaker 1: How did you feel going through that as the 17-year-old
[23:35] Speaker 1: by then, the subject of lots of gossip and innuendo,
[23:40] Speaker 1: people suggesting that you've been having an affair with Ray
[23:42] Speaker 1: and that's why he's killed his wife, Roz?
[23:45] Speaker 3: As well as trying to write out police questioning and
[23:50] Speaker 3: then it was going to go to trial and I
[23:54] Speaker 3: was drowning.
[23:55] Speaker 4: Did Ray ever apologise to you?
[23:58] Speaker 6: No, because I can.
[24:00] Speaker 3: I remember thinking, I can't believe you put me through
[24:04] Speaker 3: all this and didn't even have the decency to say goodbye.
[24:08] Speaker 6: I was very.
[24:09] Speaker 3: Angry for a long time as well, probably.
[24:11] Speaker 6: For the reasons that he'd moved on and never even
[24:14] Speaker 6: bothered to say goodbye. Or I'm sorry.
[24:18] Speaker 1: Donna last saw Ray near Roslyn's grave. That was a
[24:23] Speaker 1: chance meeting a few years after Roslyn's poisoning.
[24:28] Speaker 3: And I'd said, how's Jodie? Is she getting the gifts
[24:32] Speaker 3: that I'd sent her at Christmas and a birthday present?
[24:35] Speaker 6: Yes, yes. That was when I'd come away that day.
[24:39] Speaker 3: Thinking, you didn't even say, I am so sorry for
[24:44] Speaker 3: what you went through. He'd leave flowers with a card
[24:49] Speaker 3: with his name on it, like he needed people to
[24:52] Speaker 3: know that it was him that placed the flowers there.
[24:55] Speaker 3: I thought, this is private. This is personal, your grief
[25:01] Speaker 3: for your wife. You don't need to verbalise it for
[25:05] Speaker 3: other people to read.
[25:08] Speaker 1: Kevin hoped the interview would help his wife.
[25:11] Speaker 7: And I thank you for taking this on and trying
[25:15] Speaker 7: to find justice for Ros.
[25:19] Speaker 8: Within an hour, she was at the mortuary and declared deceased.
[25:23] Speaker 8: There was no crime scene, no forensics for three.
[25:26] Speaker 4: Months, nothing.
[25:28] Speaker 1: They were uniformed police.
[25:29] Speaker 4: And the police didn't think that the circumstances were suspicious.
[25:33] Speaker 1: They were not detectives.
[25:36] Speaker 4: In an ideal world, new.
[25:37] Speaker 8: Evidence would come out and perhaps the police would recommence
[25:43] Speaker 8: an investigation. But podcasts are also powerful because they tell
[25:49] Speaker 8: a story and this story seems to have just been
[25:52] Speaker 8: lost and two people lost their lives here.
[25:55] Speaker 1: Mm-hm.
[25:57] Speaker 4: They shouldn't be forgotten and that story should be exposed.
[26:00] Speaker 7: I think it's valuable for Donna to be able to
[26:03] Speaker 7: talk about this. It could be things that Donna's held
[26:06] Speaker 7: inside her for a very long time and this is
[26:09] Speaker 7: an opportunity for her to release that and hopefully take
[26:13] Speaker 7: away some of her pain that she's been carrying around
[26:15] Speaker 7: for 40 years.
[26:16] Speaker 6: I don't think it'll ever go.
[26:19] Speaker 7: Well, it'll probably never go, but it'll help you on
[26:22] Speaker 7: your journey because we've been through so much in our lives.
[26:27] Speaker 7: if we can just make one little part of that better,
[26:29] Speaker 7: and particularly if you contribute to something as an outcome
[26:35] Speaker 7: to bring justice to a deceased person.
[26:38] Speaker 3: He's shown a history of manipulation, domestic abuse. If someone
[26:44] Speaker 3: comes out of the woodwork and gives us some evidence,
[26:48] Speaker 3: then I hope they nail him.
[26:50] Speaker 1: MUSIC PLAYS After four hours at Donna and Kevin's house,
[27:18] Speaker 1: we needed to make tracks and drive to the airport.
[27:22] Speaker 1: They were just so open.
[27:25] Speaker 4: And it's quite emotional because... She's so emotional.
[27:30] Speaker 1: She said, I was probably protecting it. I didn't give
[27:33] Speaker 1: the police that note.
[27:35] Speaker 4: Yeah, that note's interesting.
[27:37] Speaker 8: So that must be the document that Rex refers to
[27:40] Speaker 8: as the proposal in writing.
[27:42] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[27:43] Speaker 4: That she got rid of. You wonder what was.
[27:48] Speaker 1: In that. I'm glad we got that later flight. Yeah.
[27:54] Speaker 1: He's an incredibly supportive husband.
[27:57] Speaker 4: That's the sort of husband you want.
[27:58] Speaker 8: I would support her no matter her decision and he
[28:02] Speaker 8: was very caring towards her.
[28:04] Speaker 4: They looked like they had a really solid marriage.
[28:07] Speaker 8: She was a child.
[28:08] Speaker 4: And she's carried this terrible guilt.
[28:12] Speaker 8: My 14-month-old daughter drowned in the bath as payback for
[28:16] Speaker 8: me kind of interfering in this marriage.
[28:22] Speaker 1: We were back in Bendigo that night and talking to
[28:25] Speaker 1: witnesses the next day. and we tried to talk to Ray,
[28:28] Speaker 1: who lives in Melbourne. We hoped he would return our
[28:32] Speaker 1: calls and text messages. Back in the apartment on View Street,
[28:37] Speaker 1: dozens of pages of paper filled with handwriting are spread
[28:41] Speaker 1: across the table. These are all your letters to me, Rex.
[28:45] Speaker 2: I'll be more than that.
[28:47] Speaker 1: I've got every one. As Rex keeps telling us... The.
[28:51] Speaker 2: Shortest pencil is better than the longest memory.
[28:55] Speaker 1: Rex's mood changes when we talk about dropping by the
[28:59] Speaker 1: Kangaroo Flat Public Cemetery where Ros was buried.
[29:03] Speaker 2: I've been to the cemetery. It shows this bloke, even
[29:08] Speaker 2: on a headstone that's there forever, he sticks a boot
[29:11] Speaker 2: up it.
[29:12] Speaker 1: Can you just explain why the headstone inscription offends you? Yes, because... I've.
[29:20] Speaker 4: Got the inscription. This is from a note, actually, that
[29:23] Speaker 4: you made some time ago, Rex.
[29:25] Speaker 9: It says, in loving memory of my darling wife, Rosalind
[29:29] Speaker 9: Joy McQueen, 19 July 1955 to 1 April 1986, died suddenly,
[29:32] Speaker 9: aged 30, adored mother of Jodie, stepmother of lindy and
[29:41] Speaker 9: anthony may you find comfort and peace in the little
[29:45] Speaker 9: boy you carry love ray building his.
[29:48] Speaker 1: Apple by but you've taken that to mean you weren't
[29:52] Speaker 1: satisfied with your life with me and so now you've
[29:55] Speaker 1: got a life of your own with your unborn.
[29:58] Speaker 2: Child This bloke's an expectant father. He's lost his pregnant wife.
[30:04] Speaker 1: You look at that inscription, those words, and you think
[30:10] Speaker 1: that he's trying to convey a meaning that distances himself
[30:15] Speaker 1: from culpability. Yeah.
[30:17] Speaker 2: You had the audacity to take your life. I hope
[30:21] Speaker 2: you're happy now.
[30:23] Speaker 1: Couldn't it also just mean what it says, which is,
[30:26] Speaker 1: I hope you find peace with your unborn son?
[30:29] Speaker 4: And an acknowledgement of the baby as well.
[30:33] Speaker 2: It's a kick in the gut.
[30:35] Speaker 1: That inscription really triggers you and makes you very cross.
[30:40] Speaker 1: But if you were more open-minded... I am open-minded.
[30:45] Speaker 2: It just annoys me that someone would write that on
[30:49] Speaker 2: a headstone.
[30:52] Speaker 1: I know how you feel about Ray McQueen. You believe
[30:56] Speaker 1: he's a cold-blooded murderer.
[30:57] Speaker 2: Yes.
[30:58] Speaker 1: And that he directed those words because he wanted to
[31:05] Speaker 1: message in a certain way what he wanted people to believe,
[31:10] Speaker 1: which was that Ros took her own life. Yes. Whereas
[31:13] Speaker 1: you are certain she did not take her own life. Yes.
[31:17] Speaker 2: I think knowing more now than what I knew when
[31:21] Speaker 2: I got married in 1969, just how strong a woman's
[31:27] Speaker 2: urge is to have children. It's just the instinct to
[31:33] Speaker 2: keep the race going.
[31:35] Speaker 1: There are women, including pregnant women, who do kill themselves.
[31:41] Speaker 2: Yes. But if I had to put money on it,
[31:47] Speaker 2: I would back the fact that she didn't kill herself.
[31:53] Speaker 1: We set off in Rex's four-wheel drive. Rex took us
[31:57] Speaker 1: past the site of the old Kangaroo Flat bus lines.
[32:01] Speaker 2: And that's where Ray worked from. He got the sack
[32:05] Speaker 2: after many warnings that he should be wearing the company uniform.
[32:10] Speaker 2: I spoke to the then manager in the office and
[32:14] Speaker 2: he was the one that told me that McQueen had
[32:16] Speaker 2: an outburst when he was sacked and started smashing up
[32:19] Speaker 2: the boss's desk with a heavy weight that was an
[32:23] Speaker 2: ornament or something in the office.
[32:26] Speaker 1: Arriving at the cemetery, Rex knew exactly where to go next.
[32:31] Speaker 2: Rosalind's grave is the second row.
[32:34] Speaker 1: Do you remember the first time you came to this gravesite?
[32:38] Speaker 2: Yes. And every time I'm in Bendigo, I come and
[32:43] Speaker 2: see her and tell her that I'm still on the job.
[32:46] Speaker 1: Why do you come to this place?
[32:48] Speaker 2: It's the least I can do for her.
[32:51] Speaker 1: Why do you feel this connection?
[32:53] Speaker 2: Because... It's my duty to do something, and if I
[32:57] Speaker 2: don't do it, who's going to do it?
[33:00] Speaker 1: It's been 40 years since you died.
[33:01] Speaker 2: It doesn't matter, but it's part of my life. And
[33:07] Speaker 2: I'm retired, but it's my responsibility to see an end
[33:10] Speaker 2: to this project.
[33:12] Speaker 1: When you come here and you tell her that you're
[33:16] Speaker 1: still on the job... Yes... do you do that because...
[33:20] Speaker 1: You believe in the afterlife and you think that there's
[33:24] Speaker 1: a connection that she's hearing, or do you just say that?
[33:27] Speaker 2: I don't believe in religion or the afterlife. I merely
[33:31] Speaker 2: come here for her to hear that I'm still on
[33:34] Speaker 2: the job. It's ridiculous, isn't it? It's the least I
[33:38] Speaker 2: can do for her.
[33:41] Speaker 1: Rex revisited the message that's been on Roz's grave for
[33:44] Speaker 1: four decades.
[33:47] Speaker 2: An inscription on a headstone says, should be demonstrated by
[33:52] Speaker 2: one of love. It should be in fond memories of
[33:55] Speaker 2: a deceased person. This is the last remembrance to write
[34:00] Speaker 2: that thing there, which is going to be there forevermore, probably.
[34:04] Speaker 2: It's not really cricket.
[34:08] Speaker 1: Karina walked ahead, reading names on headstones and searching for
[34:12] Speaker 1: the inscription which triggers Rex.
[34:15] Speaker 2: Oh, here.
[34:16] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[34:18] Speaker 2: Fresh flowers to what I've seen before.
[34:19] Speaker 4: They do look quite new.
[34:22] Speaker 2: Here again, Ros. Come to see you. We're on the job.
[34:30] Speaker 4: I'm going to have to pull the weed out.
[34:31] Speaker 6: I'm sorry.
[34:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. What do you think of the last sentence?
[34:38] Speaker 8: I think it's the circumstances of the death that make
[34:42] Speaker 8: it seem a bit off.
[34:43] Speaker 4: She was carrying... An.
[34:45] Speaker 8: Unborn baby who was dearly wanted by her, everyone says.
[34:51] Speaker 8: And all of the other children, including the stepchildren, are acknowledged.
[34:58] Speaker 2: My view is he must make every effort to strengthen
[35:03] Speaker 2: his alibi. These are terrible bloody places, aren't they?
[35:08] Speaker 1: I think they're quite peaceful.
[35:09] Speaker 2: They've lowered the water table that much by digging all
[35:11] Speaker 2: these graves where the trees have died.
[35:15] Speaker 1: And that's what's happened.
[35:17] Speaker 4: That's a bit grim.
[35:20] Speaker 2: Such is life, we'll all finish up and boot ill
[35:22] Speaker 2: one day.
[35:24] Speaker 1: You've heard Rex express strong views about the messaging on
[35:28] Speaker 1: Roslyn's headstone in the cemetery. Alan Strawn wasn't privy to
[35:33] Speaker 1: our conversation, but he is familiar with the headstone and
[35:37] Speaker 1: he has his own views. You heard Alan in episode
[35:42] Speaker 1: six when he was describing how he helped Ray McQueen's
[35:45] Speaker 1: first wife, Jeanette, escape the property one day. We went
[35:50] Speaker 1: up to the grave before.
[35:52] Speaker 4: It's a very interesting headstone.
[35:55] Speaker 1: What does that headstone say to you?
[35:58] Speaker 8: Well, to me, it probably says that he's just trying
[36:01] Speaker 8: to tell the public that he had nothing to do
[36:03] Speaker 8: with it.
[36:03] Speaker 1: That she committed suicide?
[36:04] Speaker 8: Mm.
[36:06] Speaker 1: And that he's wiped his hands of it.
[36:08] Speaker 6: He had no involvement in it.
[36:11] Speaker 1: Donna's bravery in speaking to us despite the long-lasting impact
[36:15] Speaker 1: that Rosalind's death has had on her life was very obvious.
[36:21] Speaker 1: Donna had powerful motives too. She remains hopeful that there
[36:26] Speaker 1: will be a breakthrough in this case, and in breaking
[36:29] Speaker 1: her own silence, she might contribute to a breakthrough in
[36:33] Speaker 1: a very positive way. As you've heard, We covered a
[36:38] Speaker 1: lot of ground over several hours during our interviews with her.
[36:42] Speaker 1: But there was one thing we hadn't really broached. Call
[36:46] Speaker 1: it the elephant in the room. This hospital has changed
[36:50] Speaker 1: a lot since 1986 with modern extensions. Back then, Donna
[36:55] Speaker 1: Manalik was brought here and the circumstances were really unusual.
[37:01] Speaker 8: She was speaking with police and she was asked whether
[37:03] Speaker 8: she would be prepared to undergo what's called virginity testing
[37:08] Speaker 8: to try to ascertain whether or not she'd had sex
[37:11] Speaker 8: with Ray McQueen. She was taken into the casualty department
[37:15] Speaker 8: into emergency where an internal examination was performed by Dr Crossley.
[37:21] Speaker 1: There was a remarkable coincidence too. Dr Crossley, on April 1, 1986,
[37:26] Speaker 1: saw the body of Ros McQueen here, and he certified
[37:32] Speaker 1: her as dead. And then he was called upon by
[37:35] Speaker 1: police three months later to examine Donna Manalik to determine
[37:41] Speaker 1: whether she was a virgin. A really unusual thing to happen.
[37:46] Speaker 1: Of course, she'd only recently turned 17. Police must have
[37:51] Speaker 1: been deeply sceptical of her claims.
[37:55] Speaker 8: I think that they were considering that... Ray's relationship with
[38:00] Speaker 8: Donna must have been a sexual one.
[38:03] Speaker 1: She said, we've kissed, but there's been no sexual contact.
[38:08] Speaker 1: They wanted to test that.
[38:10] Speaker 8: They were thinking about the motive for Ray potentially having
[38:13] Speaker 8: murdered Ros and obviously an infatuation or a relationship with
[38:16] Speaker 8: Donna was a good motive for police to hold on to.
[38:22] Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine something like that happening now, isn't it?
[38:25] Speaker 4: It's pretty much inconceivable.
[38:29] Speaker 1: We had not questioned Donna about the so-called virginity testing
[38:34] Speaker 1: that she underwent during the homicide investigation in 1986. Karina
[38:40] Speaker 1: and I talked about it. We couldn't just ignore it.
[38:44] Speaker 1: And so she called Donna and explained the omission. They
[38:48] Speaker 1: agreed to a second interview the next day.
[38:50] Speaker 8: It's just recording now. You probably heard the little recording message. Yep.
[38:57] Speaker 8: What I was hoping to talk to you about today
[38:59] Speaker 8: is the medical examination that you had done at the
[39:03] Speaker 8: request of police.
[39:05] Speaker 4: How did that examination come about?
[39:08] Speaker 3: It was during an interview because I was at the
[39:11] Speaker 3: police station. I was asked the question if I had
[39:17] Speaker 3: had sex with Ray and said no. I was asked
[39:21] Speaker 3: if I would prove it by going and having a medical.
[39:26] Speaker 1: Exam After 40 years, Donna could not recall some of
[39:31] Speaker 1: the specific details such as the date and timing of
[39:35] Speaker 1: the internal examination, how she got to the Bendigo Base Hospital,
[39:39] Speaker 1: where it was done and who was there. But we've
[39:42] Speaker 1: been able to piece together some of these details from
[39:45] Speaker 1: the police brief of evidence. Donna's lengthy police statement made
[39:50] Speaker 1: while she was being questioned by Detective Sergeant Mick Furlong
[39:54] Speaker 1: has been well aired in this podcast series. That interview
[39:58] Speaker 1: was conducted on July 1, 1986. Donna's mother, Glenys Manalik,
[40:04] Speaker 1: also made a police statement that same day with a
[40:07] Speaker 1: different detective, Max MacDonald. Donna signed her statement at 6.40pm
[40:14] Speaker 1: at the Bendigo CIB's offices. She seems to have gone
[40:18] Speaker 1: straight from the police interview room to the Bendigo Base
[40:21] Speaker 1: Hospital for what was called virginity testing. Dr Peter Crossley
[40:27] Speaker 1: said in his police statement that he examined Donna at 7.15pm.
[40:32] Speaker 1: Karina was very keenly interested in the question of consent.
[40:38] Speaker 8: Did the police allow you to make that decision as
[40:41] Speaker 8: to whether or not you consented to the examinations?
[40:45] Speaker 3: Yes, I think so. They said, would you be willing to? Well,
[40:49] Speaker 3: it was the only way that I could prove that
[40:52] Speaker 3: I wasn't lying.
[40:54] Speaker 1: Donna told Karina her parents did not join her in
[40:57] Speaker 1: the police interview room.
[40:58] Speaker 6: I was alone with all the interviews.
[41:02] Speaker 4: And was that by choice?
[41:05] Speaker 7: No, they came to.
[41:06] Speaker 3: My work the first time and asked to speak to
[41:10] Speaker 3: me and asked me to accompany them to the station
[41:12] Speaker 3: for questioning.
[41:15] Speaker 8: And were you asked whether you wanted to phone a
[41:17] Speaker 8: parent or have a parent join you as a support person?
[41:22] Speaker 3: I can't remember any requests about having my parents there.
[41:25] Speaker 3: They may have, but not to my knowledge.
[41:29] Speaker 1: Donna disclosed that she was not told beforehand what the
[41:33] Speaker 1: examination would involve.
[41:35] Speaker 3: There was nothing said about the examination, like what I'd
[41:41] Speaker 3: have to do.
[41:41] Speaker 1: Had you had....
[41:44] Speaker 4: An examination like this before with a doctor?
[41:46] Speaker 1: No. In official documents obtained for this podcast investigation, there
[41:53] Speaker 1: is evidence that homicide detectives received Donna's consent for the
[41:57] Speaker 1: virginity testing examination in 1986. Donna has confirmed that this
[42:03] Speaker 1: is her recollection too, and the documents also suggest that
[42:08] Speaker 1: police asked Donna's parents about consent for the examinations. Donna's stepfather,
[42:15] Speaker 1: Alf Benellick, waited with police outside a room in the
[42:18] Speaker 1: casualty section at Bendigo Hospital during Donna's examination there, according
[42:24] Speaker 1: to sworn testimony. Retired Detective Senior Sergeant Ron Blackshaw has
[42:29] Speaker 1: told me that the examination would not have occurred if
[42:33] Speaker 1: Donna or her parents had not agreed to it, but
[42:36] Speaker 1: they both agreed. and detectives saw it as a way
[42:40] Speaker 1: to address the innuendo bound up in the evidence coming
[42:43] Speaker 1: from other witnesses who were claiming that Ray and Donna
[42:48] Speaker 1: appeared to be in a sexual relationship. Ron Blackshaw said
[42:53] Speaker 1: that the examination was not frowned upon as it is
[42:56] Speaker 1: by some now and that there was nothing unlawful about
[43:00] Speaker 1: it in 1986. I assume it.
[43:03] Speaker 3: Was very confronting and It was very embarrassing and very intrusive.
[43:10] Speaker 4: Why do you describe it that way?
[43:13] Speaker 3: Well, when you haven't been intimate with someone and you've
[43:17] Speaker 3: got to get up on a table with your lower
[43:19] Speaker 3: half naked and spread your legs and someone go inside
[43:24] Speaker 3: you to examine you, it's really embarrassing.
[43:28] Speaker 1: She couldn't remember being told the actual results. Karina shared
[43:33] Speaker 1: with her the short statement from Dr.
[43:35] Speaker 8: Crossley, the doctor's written that Donna claimed to be a
[43:40] Speaker 8: virgin and then his conclusion is no evidence to suggest
[43:44] Speaker 8: that Donna's claim was untrue.
[43:46] Speaker 1: Right.
[43:48] Speaker 8: Now you've had a lot of life experience and you're
[43:53] Speaker 8: a mother of daughters. How do you feel about the
[43:56] Speaker 8: fact that you had this procedure?
[43:59] Speaker 3: I don't think they should have been allowed to take me.
[44:04] Speaker 8: By being asked to undergo the examination, you felt that
[44:07] Speaker 8: your version of events was being tested?
[44:12] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, most definitely. A bit like a bullying technique,
[44:16] Speaker 3: I think. Well, okay, this is what you say.
[44:19] Speaker 6: Are you willing to prove it? Well, come on, let's go.
[44:24] Speaker 1: Karina spoke with Donna about how attitudes to virginity testing
[44:28] Speaker 1: have changed drastically since Donna had her examination in 1986.
[44:34] Speaker 8: Virginity testing is illegal in the United Kingdom. The Australian
[44:40] Speaker 8: government decided that historical virginity testing in institutional settings is
[44:46] Speaker 8: actually institutional child sexual abuse.
[44:48] Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
[44:51] Speaker 8: You went through an extraordinary experience. Did you tell Ray
[44:56] Speaker 8: that you'd had the examination?
[44:58] Speaker 6: I can't remember.
[45:00] Speaker 8: Yeah.
[45:01] Speaker 1: But Ray McQueen knew about Donna's examination and his solicitor
[45:06] Speaker 1: would have had Dr Crossley's report from the police brief
[45:10] Speaker 1: to the coroner for the inquest. Ray McQueen raised the
[45:14] Speaker 1: fact of the examination when he talked to our colleague
[45:17] Speaker 1: Liam Mendez just days before the first episode of this
[45:21] Speaker 1: series was launched. Liam had been asking Ray about his
[45:26] Speaker 1: connection with Donna and Ray was trying to distance himself
[45:30] Speaker 1: not even remembering whether he had kissed her.
[45:33] Speaker 8: Did she also say that the police blackmailed her into
[45:39] Speaker 8: having a virginity test?
[45:41] Speaker 1: And she tested virgin. After Karina and Donna stopped talking
[45:47] Speaker 1: about the examination, Donna was asked if she wanted to
[45:51] Speaker 1: add anything else. She paused and spoke again.
[45:55] Speaker 3: I've just been reeling from this since we last met.
[46:00] Speaker 3: spoke because I found out stuff that I didn't know
[46:05] Speaker 3: and just trying to deal with it, I guess.
[46:08] Speaker 8: It must be hard for you. I'm sorry, it's probably
[46:10] Speaker 8: brought up a lot of memories and they've now resurfaced.
[46:14] Speaker 3: Yes, a whole lot of not very nice feelings. You
[46:18] Speaker 3: feel that you've dealt with things from a long time
[46:22] Speaker 3: ago until it comes back up, but I think there
[46:25] Speaker 3: was so much more information that I learnt and You
[46:29] Speaker 3: go through a whole lot of emotions.
[46:32] Speaker 6: I've been pretty angry.
[46:34] Speaker 8: That's caused you to rethink things?
[46:38] Speaker 6: Yeah, it puts a whole new light on the situation.
[46:41] Speaker 3: All the lies that I found out about, that he
[46:44] Speaker 3: told people about the cancer and all that sort of stuff,
[46:49] Speaker 3: he played us all for fools.
[46:50] Speaker 8: So you don't remember the police ever telling you that
[46:54] Speaker 8: Rosalind didn't have cancer? No.
[46:56] Speaker 5: No.
[46:57] Speaker 4: Did you think.
[46:59] Speaker 8: That she died from the strychnine poisoning but had cancer
[47:04] Speaker 8: as well?
[47:05] Speaker 1: Yes.
[47:06] Speaker 3: We were under the impression that she passed away because
[47:10] Speaker 3: of the cancer until we were later notified of the
[47:16] Speaker 3: strychnine poisoning.
[47:18] Speaker 6: But we still thought she had cancer.
[47:21] Speaker 1: Donna had been piecing together some of the information we'd
[47:25] Speaker 1: shared with her casting her mind back to what she
[47:28] Speaker 1: was told at the time, what she believed she knew
[47:31] Speaker 1: at the time, and wondering if things might have turned
[47:34] Speaker 1: out differently if she had known more back in 1986.
[47:40] Speaker 3: If the police had told us that there was no cancer,
[47:43] Speaker 3: maybe we wouldn't have fought him. Our eyes would have
[47:47] Speaker 3: been open a bit more and we would have maybe
[47:49] Speaker 3: asked ourselves the questions, hang on a minute, if he's
[47:53] Speaker 3: lied about this. There could have been some things that
[47:56] Speaker 3: I may have known back then and just kind of
[47:59] Speaker 3: brushed off as nothing, which if we had have been
[48:04] Speaker 3: informed of her not actually having cancer, it might have
[48:07] Speaker 3: made me go back and think twice and go, oh,
[48:09] Speaker 3: hang on, maybe I do need to tell them this.
[48:12] Speaker 3: Or maybe I can talk to mum and dad about
[48:14] Speaker 3: this information and see whether they think I should tell
[48:18] Speaker 3: the police. I never told him about the letter he
[48:21] Speaker 3: gave me. That was the letter that said that he'd
[48:24] Speaker 3: had feelings for me since the first time we met
[48:26] Speaker 3: or something like that. And then that freaked me out
[48:30] Speaker 3: because I was only 14 when we met.
[48:33] Speaker 8: I imagine it's really hard for witnesses to judge what
[48:37] Speaker 8: is and isn't important information if you don't really know
[48:42] Speaker 8: much about the facts of the case at that time
[48:46] Speaker 8: or the police theories.
[48:48] Speaker 1: The grooming of Donna by a man more than twice
[48:51] Speaker 1: her age was causing her a lot of angst. She
[48:55] Speaker 1: was still questioning whether she was somehow responsible for this.
[49:00] Speaker 3: You feel stupid because of the realisation that you were groomed.
[49:06] Speaker 3: It's pretty humiliating in itself. Even though you're at such
[49:10] Speaker 3: a young age, it leaves me questioning what kind of
[49:16] Speaker 3: a person I was.
[49:19] Speaker 6: And did I send.
[49:19] Speaker 3: out signals? Was I a needy person? Was I a
[49:24] Speaker 3: flirtatious person? Because I got all this unwanted attention. You
[49:31] Speaker 3: ask the question as to whether you asked for it.
[49:36] Speaker 3: They're the things that have gone through my mind since
[49:39] Speaker 3: you and headley were here no.
[49:41] Speaker 8: It's not your fault you know you're a child when
[49:44] Speaker 8: all this is happening way back then in 1986 which
[49:47] Speaker 8: is just such a different time in.
[49:51] Speaker 1: The next episode of the poisoned wife.
[49:54] Speaker 3: If he is a murderer he's a bloody good one
[49:57] Speaker 3: isn't he i found that the most strangest thing and
[50:00] Speaker 3: has stuck in my head ever since.
[50:17] Speaker 1: The Poisoned Wife is investigated and written by me, Hedley Thomas,
[50:21] Speaker 1: and Carina Berger. Police statements and some other material have
[50:26] Speaker 1: been voice acted in the episodes in this podcast series.
[50:31] Speaker 1: Anyone with information about the death of Rosalind McQueen can
[50:34] Speaker 1: contact me confidentially at thepoisonedwife at theaustralian.com.au. Our editorial director
[50:44] Speaker 1: is Claire Harvey. Audio production for The Poisoned Wife is
[50:48] Speaker 1: by Wasabi Audio and Slade Gibson. Special thanks to Tom Williams,
[50:53] Speaker 1: Sean Callinan, Andy Taylor, Greg Brown, Rowan Williams, Brittany English
[50:58] Speaker 1: and the Content Division, Adelaide Kennedy, Tani Strohet, Sophie Renee,
[51:03] Speaker 1: Liam Mendes, Sarah Elks, Erica Rutledge, Lydia Lynch, Chloe Barr,
[51:08] Speaker 1: John Paul Cashin, Will Sightum, Liliana Molina, Lara Kaminos, Suze Rolf, And,
[51:16] Speaker 1: of course, to the Australian's Editor-in-Chief, Michelle Gunn, and the editor,
[51:22] Speaker 1: Kelvin Healy, for affording us the time and resources to
[51:25] Speaker 1: tackle these important stories.
[51:43] Speaker 2: Thank you.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.