# Episode 5: The Charge

An episode of [The Poisoned Wife](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6802159331), 24 Sep 2026, 59 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/7e151776-f7a0-45fe-8666-b4a500480d35/260a5155-f969-4e2a-95ec-b4c1004ebb72/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=fe9d03b3-aa69-4a29-9315-b4a5004a32d9

Donna drops a bombshell during her police interview. Two months after Rosslyn's sudden death, Ray asked Donna to live with him in a "husband and wife relationship". Her mother and stepfather are horrified. Ray tells his friend Evan Doherty that Donna had offered to live with him to repay him for his help to her. Evan doubts Ray's supposedly altruistic motives in relation to Donna. Donna endures an intrusive medical examination to test her claim to police that she has not had sex with Ray. After hours of questioning by homicide detectives, Ray is charged with murdering his wife. He maintains his innocence, telling detectives he loved Ros, was devoted to her and wouldn't do a thing to hurt her. Subscribers hear new episodes of The Poisoned Wife first. Listen at thepoisonedwife.com, in The Australian’s app or search for The Poisoned Wife on Apple Podcasts to connect your subscription. Join the conversation and hear more from Hedley Thomas in The Poisoned Wife Podcast Official Discussion Group on Facebook Do you know more? Contact the team at thepoisonedwife@theaustralian.com.au See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast contains coarse language and
[0:04] Speaker 1: adult themes. The Poisoned Wife is a podcast investigation brought
[0:09] Speaker 1: to you by me, Hedley Thomas, and The Australian. Subscribers
[0:14] Speaker 1: to The Australian hear episodes first on The Australian's app
[0:18] Speaker 1: at thepoisonedwife.com and Apple Podcasts.
[0:35] Speaker 2: Every single piece of paper I got about this case,
[0:37] Speaker 2: you have now got.
[0:39] Speaker 3: He would have known that she would have died a
[0:41] Speaker 3: really painful death.
[0:43] Speaker 4: She always wanted to be a mother.
[0:46] Speaker 1: Always.
[0:47] Speaker 5: I didn't do it. I had nothing to do with
[0:50] Speaker 5: Rosalind's death.
[0:51] Speaker 3: I was a 16-year-old girl who had a crush on
[0:55] Speaker 3: an older married man. I just think it's all so cruel.
[1:00] Speaker 6: How would you have been trying to protect him?
[1:11] Speaker 1: Studying the police brief of evidence has been like taking
[1:14] Speaker 1: a step back in time, a time when policing involved
[1:18] Speaker 1: a lot of manual, paper-based work. Word processing computers were
[1:22] Speaker 1: still not standard issue in Victoria's police stations in mid-1986,
[1:28] Speaker 1: but the basic way that the information was gathered and
[1:31] Speaker 1: presented didn't appear to affect the quality of the policing.
[1:36] Speaker 6: We've been able to bring this story to light.
[1:39] Speaker 1: And to share Ray McQueen's version through his signed police
[1:42] Speaker 1: statement and extensive handwritten police notes, we're able to tell
[1:47] Speaker 1: some of Roz's side of a tragic story, too, through
[1:50] Speaker 1: the evidence of her family and friends. But, of course,
[1:54] Speaker 1: there is another critical player in the unfolding narrative.
[1:58] Speaker 6: The teenager, Donna Manalik.
[2:02] Speaker 1: Donna would speak with police several times, and she gave
[2:05] Speaker 1: evidence at the subsequent inquest into Roz's death. Donna told
[2:10] Speaker 1: police that she found out Roz had died on the
[2:13] Speaker 1: same day, Tuesday, April 1. She said her mum told
[2:18] Speaker 1: her Roz had died, and that happened after one of
[2:22] Speaker 1: the bus drivers from Kangaroo Flat Bus.
[2:24] Speaker 6: Lines phoned the Manalik home. In her police.
[2:27] Speaker 1: Statements, Donna doesn't relate how she reacted. Perhaps she wasn't asked.
[2:34] Speaker 1: By contrast, her cousin, Sandra Manalik, told police, I was.
[2:39] Speaker 4: Shocked and saddened by the news. I wondered why it
[2:42] Speaker 4: had happened. I did not know why.
[2:45] Speaker 1: Sandra shared with police a conversation that she'd had with
[2:49] Speaker 1: Donna the day after Roz's death, when she went around
[2:52] Speaker 1: to visit.
[2:53] Speaker 4: Donna said that it was strange because she had a
[2:56] Speaker 4: dream a few nights before that Roz had died. In
[2:59] Speaker 4: her dream, after Roz had died, her and Ray got together.
[3:02] Speaker 4: I took that to mean they went together. She went
[3:05] Speaker 4: on to say, I mentioned to you ages ago that
[3:07] Speaker 4: Ros had cancer and I don't know if that is
[3:09] Speaker 4: why she died.
[3:11] Speaker 1: Exactly a week after Ros died, Ros's mother, Joy, minded
[3:16] Speaker 1: Jodie for the afternoon at a friend's home.
[3:20] Speaker 3: When Ray came to collect Jodie that evening, I was
[3:23] Speaker 3: absolutely stunned when Donna walked in with him and the
[3:26] Speaker 3: other children.
[3:27] Speaker 1: Ray said that they'd all been out for tea. On
[3:31] Speaker 1: June 3, Donna and her cousin Sandra went into Bendigo
[3:34] Speaker 1: for lunch at a new Chinese restaurant. It was handily
[3:38] Speaker 1: placed next door to Ray's office at National Mutual Insurance.
[3:43] Speaker 7: I had said to Ray at one of our prior
[3:45] Speaker 7: meetings that I would be in Bendigo this day. He
[3:48] Speaker 7: sat down and had lunch with the two of us
[3:50] Speaker 7: and my cousin and I paid the bill for the
[3:52] Speaker 7: three of us.
[3:53] Speaker 1: When lunch was over, Sandra left to do other things
[3:57] Speaker 1: and Donna and Ray were left alone.
[4:00] Speaker 7: I asked him if he wanted to talk to me
[4:01] Speaker 7: here or some other place. He suggested a drive. We
[4:06] Speaker 7: drove to the lake.
[4:08] Speaker 1: It's just a few minutes north of the city centre,
[4:11] Speaker 1: a place where locals and visitors go for walks and
[4:14] Speaker 1: bike rides, picnics and ice creams. Karina did some laps
[4:19] Speaker 1: around it during our stay there.
[4:21] Speaker 8: Lake Maroona is actually an old gold mining site and
[4:26] Speaker 8: back in the late 1800s, They decided to make this
[4:30] Speaker 8: a recreation park so that people could come and just
[4:33] Speaker 8: enjoy themselves in this beautiful space.
[4:36] Speaker 6: Well, I can see why.
[4:37] Speaker 1: There are people out on canoes, mums walking their babies.
[4:41] Speaker 6: It's a pretty area. The light's beautiful now.
[4:45] Speaker 1: But in 1986, it was the backdrop for an extraordinary conversation.
[4:51] Speaker 1: Sitting by the water, Ray made a proposal to Donna.
[4:56] Speaker 7: He began by asking me what I wanted to do
[4:58] Speaker 7: with my life. I said, I didn't know. He asked
[5:02] Speaker 7: me if I'd thought about it. I said, not a
[5:04] Speaker 7: great deal. He said there was no way he was
[5:07] Speaker 7: going to stay single. He was going to find someone else.
[5:12] Speaker 7: He thought he'd already found her and that it was me.
[5:15] Speaker 7: He would like me to go out and live with
[5:16] Speaker 7: him at his house. He just didn't want a housemaid
[5:20] Speaker 7: and someone to look after Jodie. Someone to share a
[5:23] Speaker 7: relationship with. Someone he could talk to and someone who
[5:28] Speaker 7: could help him.
[5:30] Speaker 1: Not quite a marriage proposal, but one that you would
[5:33] Speaker 1: not expect a grieving widower to make so soon after
[5:37] Speaker 1: the sudden death of his pregnant wife. Donna seemed caught
[5:42] Speaker 1: off guard. This is where he asked her to come
[5:47] Speaker 1: and live with him. He believed that they should be together.
[5:51] Speaker 8: Donna places the conversation in early June, so it's about
[5:54] Speaker 8: two months after Rozzy's death.
[5:57] Speaker 1: Very soon before homicide detectives from Melbourne converged on Bendigo
[6:02] Speaker 1: and began asking some very serious questions and circling Ray
[6:05] Speaker 1: McQueen as the key suspect. And this is how Donna
[6:09] Speaker 1: said in her statement to the police that the conversation
[6:13] Speaker 1: unfolded from there.
[6:15] Speaker 7: I said we'd have to talk it over with Mum
[6:17] Speaker 7: and Dad. A couple of weeks went past and I
[6:19] Speaker 7: was trying to pick the right moments He also wanted
[6:22] Speaker 7: to be there.
[6:24] Speaker 1: She knew her mother and stepfather wouldn't approve. She told
[6:28] Speaker 1: Ray she couldn't go anywhere until she was 18, and
[6:32] Speaker 1: that wouldn't be until May 1987, just shy of a
[6:36] Speaker 1: year away. It was a long time to wait for
[6:39] Speaker 1: a man who seemed in a big hurry. But Ray
[6:43] Speaker 1: didn't appear put off by that delay. A year's wait
[6:47] Speaker 1: didn't deter him. Donna and Ray made a decision. when
[6:51] Speaker 1: they agreed they should talk over with Donna's parents, Glenys
[6:55] Speaker 1: and Alf. When Ray knocked on their door that night,
[6:59] Speaker 1: he hadn't been interviewed by police. Police still didn't know
[7:03] Speaker 1: then the true cause of Roz's death. It was the
[7:07] Speaker 1: calm before the storm. Glenys would later tell Detective Sergeant
[7:12] Speaker 1: Max MacDonald from the Homicide Squad that she had a
[7:15] Speaker 1: feeling that Ray wanted to talk to them about something
[7:18] Speaker 1: important that night. she found that Ray was unusually quiet
[7:23] Speaker 1: for a while. Glenys had been struggling herself. As she
[7:28] Speaker 1: put it to Detective MacDonald, she had been suffering from
[7:32] Speaker 1: very bad nerves and had twice been treated.
[7:35] Speaker 6: By a doctor.
[7:36] Speaker 7: Ray asked Mum if he made her feel uncomfortable. Mum
[7:40] Speaker 7: said no. Then Ray put the subject to Mum and
[7:43] Speaker 7: Dad and they rejected my living with him, as in
[7:46] Speaker 7: husband and wife relationship.
[7:48] Speaker 6: As Glennis told Detective MacDonald.
[7:51] Speaker 9: He said he knew I'd been sick and he may
[7:53] Speaker 9: have been the cause of it. I said, yes, it
[7:55] Speaker 9: was because of him and Donna. I was getting sick
[7:57] Speaker 9: over it.
[7:59] Speaker 1: Ray apologised and he said that.
[8:02] Speaker 9: He and Donna had a talk about it and they'd
[8:04] Speaker 9: come to a decision, that Donna would go and live
[8:06] Speaker 9: at Ray's place. Donna said she would not go until
[8:09] Speaker 9: she was 18, but if we wanted her to go now.
[8:12] Speaker 5: She would.
[8:14] Speaker 1: There was no mistaking, as far as Glennis was concerned,
[8:17] Speaker 1: what Ray was suggesting. Alf agreed with his wife. They
[8:21] Speaker 1: were in no doubt about it when they related it
[8:24] Speaker 1: to police. Alf told police that Ray was proposing a
[8:28] Speaker 1: de facto husband-wife relationship.
[8:32] Speaker 6: Alf was not having any of it.
[8:35] Speaker 10: I made it quite clear to both of them that
[8:38] Speaker 10: I would not permit it. I felt shocked, betrayed and
[8:42] Speaker 10: could not understand them.
[8:44] Speaker 6: He had betrayed my friendship, my trust.
[8:48] Speaker 10: The other aspect I could not understand was his wife
[8:51] Speaker 10: had only been dead some 10 to 11 weeks.
[8:56] Speaker 7: It didn't matter what I said, my parents' attitude did
[8:58] Speaker 7: not change. The subject was dropped on that night and
[9:02] Speaker 7: Ray later told me to give them time.
[9:03] Speaker 1: Glenys told police that when Ray came over and spoke
[9:09] Speaker 1: about this idea, she was too upset to say or
[9:13] Speaker 1: do anything and so she sat there crying. None of
[9:17] Speaker 1: it can have been good for her already shattered nerves.
[9:21] Speaker 1: She was disgusted in the man she believed was their
[9:24] Speaker 1: long-time family friend. Glenys added that she couldn't bring herself
[9:29] Speaker 1: to talk to or even look at Ray. She concluded
[9:33] Speaker 1: that he had abused their friendship.
[9:37] Speaker 11: Saturday, June 28, 1986. Vin said that already 11 different
[9:41] Speaker 11: detectives had been investigating. Meanwhile, they were still trying to
[9:44] Speaker 11: find strychnine.
[9:46] Speaker 1: Yvonne Dixon was Ray and Rosalind's near neighbour in 1986.
[9:50] Speaker 1: Ray was at work, on and off, and in and
[9:51] Speaker 1: You heard her in episode two. She was a committed diarist.
[9:52] Speaker 1: out of his house like a yo-yo. Ray had dinner
[9:55] Speaker 1: with Evan Doherty and his wife Susan at their home.
[9:56] Speaker 1: These are her notes from those heady days when Bendy
[9:58] Speaker 1: It was Saturday, June 28th.
[10:18] Speaker 12: He said that Donna had offered to go and live
[10:19] Speaker 12: at the house. She wanted to give up her job
[10:22] Speaker 12: and go and look after Jodie. Ray projected this as
[10:25] Speaker 12: being an offer by Donna to repay him for his
[10:28] Speaker 12: help to her. There was no suggestion that Donna was
[10:31] Speaker 12: to live with Ray in any heterosexual relationship. Ray said
[10:35] Speaker 12: he could not allow her to give up her job,
[10:38] Speaker 12: so I was left with the impression that Ray was
[10:40] Speaker 12: not going to accept the offer.
[10:43] Speaker 6: Evan was a builder.
[10:44] Speaker 1: He'd known Ray for about 10 years. from back when
[10:48] Speaker 1: Ray and his first wife Jeanette were wheat farmers at Beulah.
[10:53] Speaker 1: Evan regarded Ray as a self-centred person who tended to
[10:58] Speaker 1: look after himself first and foremost. He noticed that Ray
[11:03] Speaker 1: placed Donna a firm second to himself, something.
[11:06] Speaker 6: He didn't do with anyone else.
[11:09] Speaker 1: Evan found this so out of character for Ray that
[11:12] Speaker 1: it made him question what Ray was saying about his
[11:15] Speaker 1: relationship with Donna Evan's wife, Susan, was Jeanette's cousin. After
[11:22] Speaker 1: Jeanette and Ray's separation, Evan and Susan started hanging out
[11:27] Speaker 1: with Ray and his new wife, Roz. They had been
[11:31] Speaker 1: the only friends to go to Roz and Ray's wedding.
[11:35] Speaker 1: Evan later told Detective Senior Sergeant Ron Blackshaw that he
[11:39] Speaker 1: formed a view that money was tight in the McQueen household.
[11:44] Speaker 1: Evan also noticed that Ray and Roz had sold a
[11:48] Speaker 1: late model van and they'd replaced it with a much
[11:51] Speaker 1: older vehicle.
[11:53] Speaker 12: She was not her usual happy-go-lucky self. She was obviously
[11:57] Speaker 12: upset about the financial side of things, especially with the
[12:00] Speaker 12: baby coming. It was obvious to me that there was
[12:03] Speaker 12: considerable stress on the McQueen marriage.
[12:07] Speaker 1: Evan told police that he did know Donna. He had
[12:11] Speaker 1: been introduced to her by Ray during the previous summer
[12:14] Speaker 1: when they went water skiing.
[12:16] Speaker 12: From this time on, I noticed that Donna was in
[12:19] Speaker 12: Ray's company quite a bit. Ray always said she never
[12:22] Speaker 12: got on with her parents, but she would relate to him.
[12:25] Speaker 12: He was especially attentive to Donna. For example, when she
[12:29] Speaker 12: got out of the car, he would wait so that
[12:31] Speaker 12: they could walk together. He had more patience with her
[12:35] Speaker 12: than he had with anyone else. I had my private
[12:38] Speaker 12: doubts about Ray's motives.
[12:40] Speaker 1: But the detectives were not under any illusion. Detective Sergeant
[12:45] Speaker 1: Furlong took the highly unusual investigative step of asking Donna
[12:50] Speaker 1: if she was prepared to have a medical examination. The
[12:54] Speaker 1: idea was to try to confirm whether she was, as
[12:58] Speaker 1: she had been insisting.
[13:00] Speaker 6: A virgin.
[13:01] Speaker 11: Donna removed from Kmart by two detectives. Detectives were interviewing
[13:06] Speaker 11: all people Ray had seen about insurance. another public appeal
[13:09] Speaker 11: on TV for help in locating contents of strychnine.
[13:13] Speaker 1: Yvonne Dixon had good sources in the small community of
[13:17] Speaker 1: Lockwood outside Bendigo. As her diary from that time shows,
[13:22] Speaker 1: Yvonne knew within hours that Donna had agreed to undergo
[13:25] Speaker 1: an internal examination.
[13:28] Speaker 11: Donna being examined by a police doctor for virginity or not.
[13:32] Speaker 1: The detectives drove her to the Bendigo Base Hospital. Donna
[13:37] Speaker 1: claimed Ray had given her only two kisses on the
[13:40] Speaker 1: lips and that things hadn't gone further. Ray had denied
[13:44] Speaker 1: that they'd even kissed before Roz's death, let alone done
[13:48] Speaker 1: anything else. He did admit to police that they'd kissed
[13:53] Speaker 1: passionately after Roz's death. The so-called virginity testing was undertaken
[14:00] Speaker 1: by Dr Peter Crossley from the Casualty Department. Dr Crossley
[14:05] Speaker 1: had examined Roz's body and certified her death three months
[14:09] Speaker 1: earlier to the day. There's a redaction or blacked out
[14:13] Speaker 1: section in.
[14:14] Speaker 6: Dr Crossley's short statement. We do know that Dr.
[14:18] Speaker 1: Crossley advised police that there was no evidence to suggest
[14:22] Speaker 1: that Donna's claim to be a virgin was untrue. Her
[14:26] Speaker 1: written statements don't mention the examination, an intimidating and harrowing
[14:32] Speaker 1: experience for her. You'll hear more about this so-called virginity
[14:37] Speaker 1: testing in another episode.
[14:41] Speaker 6: Donna sat down with police again.
[14:44] Speaker 1: She spoke openly about Ray, about how she felt and
[14:47] Speaker 1: about the hold that he still had over her. By then,
[14:51] Speaker 1: her world had been turned upside down. A homicide investigation
[14:56] Speaker 1: had consumed everyone around her. Most people would have run
[15:01] Speaker 1: from the chaos and the scrutiny, from him, But somehow,
[15:06] Speaker 1: none of it had broken the spell. Not Roz's death,
[15:09] Speaker 1: not the detectives, not the threat of spending the rest
[15:13] Speaker 1: of his life behind bars, hanging over Ray's head.
[15:17] Speaker 6: If anything, the spell seemed stronger.
[15:20] Speaker 1: To the detectives listening that day, one thing had become
[15:25] Speaker 1: unmistakably obvious. Donna was utterly, hopelessly devoted to Ray. As
[15:32] Speaker 1: you heard in episode one, Donna told police.
[15:37] Speaker 7: I realised I loved Ray from about 12 months ago.
[15:42] Speaker 7: That's the reason I spent so much time with him.
[15:44] Speaker 7: I wanted to be with him all the time. I
[15:48] Speaker 7: am still in love with him. And as soon as
[15:50] Speaker 7: I turn 18, I'll go away with him. Live with him.
[15:53] Speaker 7: Go anywhere he wants me to. The only reason why
[15:56] Speaker 7: I'm waiting till my 18th birthday is because of my
[15:59] Speaker 7: promise to my parents.
[16:02] Speaker 1: There are 40 typed pages comprising the interview between the
[16:06] Speaker 1: relentlessly thorough homicide detective, Ron Blackshaw, and the Bendigo widower,
[16:11] Speaker 1: Ray McQueen. They were prepared from notes handwritten by the
[16:16] Speaker 1: detective during the interview. So far, we've covered about half
[16:20] Speaker 1: of it. The police officer was a little older. They
[16:24] Speaker 1: were both the fathers of young children. But it is
[16:27] Speaker 1: difficult to imagine these two being friends. Reading the transcript
[16:32] Speaker 1: and some of their exchanges, I can almost hear the
[16:35] Speaker 1: disbelief and at times derision in the cop who has
[16:39] Speaker 1: to try to solve the probable murder of a dedicated
[16:42] Speaker 1: young mum who died in agony.
[16:45] Speaker 2: What happened when you got home from tennis that Monday night?
[16:49] Speaker 1: At the end of episode three, you heard Donna's evidence
[16:52] Speaker 1: about what she had told Ray McQueen at tennis on
[16:55] Speaker 1: that Monday evening. Donna spoke of Roz's concerns that Ray
[17:00] Speaker 1: was going to divorce her.
[17:02] Speaker 6: Here's a reminder.
[17:05] Speaker 7: I told him what Roz had said and that she
[17:07] Speaker 7: was upset. He was very shocked at what I'd told him.
[17:10] Speaker 7: He then asked who had told me. I told him
[17:13] Speaker 7: that I'd spoken to Roz. I then said he should
[17:17] Speaker 7: sit her down, talk to her about it and tell
[17:20] Speaker 7: her how much he loved her. He replied, yes, I
[17:23] Speaker 7: shall talk to her when I go home.
[17:26] Speaker 1: Ray's 30-year-old wife and the 16-year-old girl were friends, but
[17:32] Speaker 1: they were both in love with Ray. Roz believed that
[17:36] Speaker 1: Ray wanted to be with Donna. Roz did not appear
[17:41] Speaker 1: to show any ill will towards the teenager. It is
[17:45] Speaker 1: likely that Roz told Donna things at a time when
[17:48] Speaker 1: Roz didn't know that Donna had a heavy crush on Ray.
[17:52] Speaker 1: and we don't know whether Roz wanted Donna to pass
[17:55] Speaker 1: these things on to Ray. Perhaps communications between Roz and
[18:00] Speaker 1: Ray were so bad that Donna was being used as
[18:03] Speaker 1: a conduit. But Detective Senior Sergeant Ron Blackshaw suspected that
[18:08] Speaker 1: the conversation between Donna and Ray at tennis on the
[18:13] Speaker 1: Monday was the final straw. If Ray was the wife
[18:17] Speaker 1: killer that the police investigation would make him out to be,
[18:21] Speaker 1: was the decision to kill Roz triggered by that brief
[18:25] Speaker 1: conversation in which the teenager told Ray that his wife
[18:29] Speaker 1: was bracing for a divorce. Here's how Ray answered the
[18:34] Speaker 1: question about events after Monday's tennis.
[18:38] Speaker 5: It was about 5pm that I got home. Roz was
[18:41] Speaker 5: still asleep.
[18:44] Speaker 1: After multiple questions which got Ray talking about his first
[18:48] Speaker 1: wife Jeanette, the failure of their marriage, and raise anger
[18:52] Speaker 1: over what he regarded as an unfair property settlement. The
[18:55] Speaker 1: last 12 hours or so of the life of his
[18:58] Speaker 1: second wife, Roz, are now finally in focus. Ron Blackshaw
[19:04] Speaker 1: must have been all ears.
[19:07] Speaker 5: I did the outside chores, milked the goat, lit the fires,
[19:11] Speaker 5: and when I came inside, she was awake. Roz prepared
[19:15] Speaker 5: tea and we had tea together. I had arranged with
[19:19] Speaker 5: the guy that I work with to do some cold
[19:22] Speaker 5: calling on Easter Tuesday.
[19:24] Speaker 2: What's that?
[19:26] Speaker 5: Door knocking.
[19:28] Speaker 1: Ray worked for the National Mutual Insurance Company and he
[19:31] Speaker 1: explained that its district sales manager had passed on a tip.
[19:36] Speaker 5: He had told us it was a good idea to
[19:38] Speaker 5: do that on public holidays because people were receptive, in
[19:42] Speaker 5: a receptive mood, in a relaxed atmosphere.
[19:46] Speaker 6: And Ray had a new lead. Cameron Twining.
[19:50] Speaker 1: A potential purchaser of a life insurance policy. A young
[19:54] Speaker 1: man who lived in Maidengully, about a 20-minute drive from
[19:58] Speaker 1: the office. He had been away in Ballarat on a
[20:02] Speaker 1: training course for his employer, Telecom, but he would be
[20:05] Speaker 1: back in Bendigo for the Easter long weekend.
[20:08] Speaker 5: I made a phone call on the Monday night. I
[20:11] Speaker 5: got details of his age. I was talking to his mother.
[20:15] Speaker 5: I wrote all the details down on a pad beside
[20:17] Speaker 5: the phone. I did a bit of book work at home.
[20:22] Speaker 1: Ray said he went to bed sometime between 10 and
[20:25] Speaker 1: 10.30pm while Roz was still up watching TV.
[20:29] Speaker 2: What time did she come to bed?
[20:31] Speaker 5: I don't know.
[20:32] Speaker 2: Are you serious?
[20:33] Speaker 5: Yes. She came to bed after me and then was
[20:36] Speaker 5: up before me. I don't know.
[20:39] Speaker 2: Are you saying there's a possibility that she was up
[20:42] Speaker 2: all night and didn't come to bed?
[20:44] Speaker 5: There is a possibility. I don't know.
[20:48] Speaker 2: You said earlier that your wife had suffered dizzy spells
[20:50] Speaker 2: that day. Is that right?
[20:51] Speaker 5: Yes.
[20:52] Speaker 2: Weren't you concerned to make sure that your wife got
[20:54] Speaker 2: some rest?
[20:56] Speaker 5: Yes.
[20:57] Speaker 2: Well, did you ask her if she was all right
[20:59] Speaker 2: or over her dizzy spells or slept well?
[21:02] Speaker 5: Not really.
[21:04] Speaker 6: Ray and Roz were distant, emotionally and physically. The next morning,
[21:10] Speaker 6: Ray arose, as he told the detective, at 6am.
[21:14] Speaker 1: Ros was not in the marital bed. She wasn't there
[21:18] Speaker 1: when Ray went to sleep, and she wasn't in it
[21:21] Speaker 1: when Ray got up, he said.
[21:22] Speaker 5: I don't know how long she was up. I got up,
[21:26] Speaker 5: did my chores outside, put my old clothes on, came
[21:30] Speaker 5: back inside, got my breakfast.
[21:33] Speaker 2: Did you have breakfast with Roslyn?
[21:35] Speaker 5: No.
[21:36] Speaker 2: Do you normally have breakfast with your wife?
[21:38] Speaker 5: Very rarely ever have breakfast.
[21:42] Speaker 1: But on this fateful day, Ray confirmed that he did
[21:45] Speaker 1: have breakfast. The detective wanted to.
[21:48] Speaker 6: Know what Ray ate. It was a bowl of.
[21:50] Speaker 1: Cereal, he said, a couple of slices of toast and
[21:53] Speaker 1: a cup of tea.
[21:54] Speaker 2: What does Rosalind have?
[21:56] Speaker 1: She never has any set thing. Sometimes, he added, she
[22:00] Speaker 1: would have stewed fruits. Sometimes cereal. Sometimes a combination of
[22:06] Speaker 1: stewed fruit and cereal.
[22:08] Speaker 5: And sometimes she would just have a slice of toast.
[22:11] Speaker 2: Were there any remnants of her breakfast that Rosalind may
[22:14] Speaker 2: have eaten?
[22:15] Speaker 5: There was absolutely nothing on the table.
[22:19] Speaker 2: Was there anything on the sink or in the dishwasher
[22:21] Speaker 2: which would indicate to you that your wife had eaten breakfast?
[22:25] Speaker 5: There were dishes on the sink and dishes in the dishwasher.
[22:29] Speaker 2: Was that an indication to you that she had had breakfast?
[22:32] Speaker 6: No.
[22:34] Speaker 1: Ray said that when he came back inside the house
[22:36] Speaker 1: after having done his chores that morning, Roz was.
[22:40] Speaker 5: Just sitting at the table in a dressing gown.
[22:44] Speaker 2: And then what happened?
[22:45] Speaker 5: I had breakfast, had a shower, I picked up my
[22:49] Speaker 5: books and a little computer I always carry around with me.
[22:53] Speaker 5: Just like every morning, I put my arm around her
[22:56] Speaker 5: and kissed her goodbye. She was just sitting at the table.
[23:00] Speaker 5: It was only small talk in the morning. Breakfast time.
[23:04] Speaker 2: Was Rosalind alright when you left that morning?
[23:07] Speaker 7: Yes.
[23:09] Speaker 5: Well, she wasn't talking very much.
[23:12] Speaker 1: Ray said he assumed that Jodie was still asleep.
[23:16] Speaker 2: So don't you check on Jodie before you leave the house?
[23:19] Speaker 5: I sometimes go and check her. She sleeps lightly.
[23:23] Speaker 6: On this morning, however, Ray said he didn't check on
[23:26] Speaker 6: the toddler.
[23:27] Speaker 1: He told the detective that it would have been 8am
[23:30] Speaker 1: when he drove away from the house.
[23:33] Speaker 2: So you left your home and drove to work on
[23:35] Speaker 2: your own, did you?
[23:36] Speaker 5: Yes.
[23:37] Speaker 2: Is there anyone you saw on the way or you
[23:39] Speaker 2: spoke to at this time?
[23:41] Speaker 5: No, I went straight to work on my own.
[23:45] Speaker 1: Ray said he did some paperwork in the office where
[23:48] Speaker 1: he was the only one there until Graham Jenkin turned
[23:52] Speaker 1: up and they talked about the lead they were going
[23:54] Speaker 1: to pursue that day. And it was at that point
[23:57] Speaker 1: that Ray realised, he told the detective, that he was
[24:00] Speaker 1: missing something. Ray described it as the details for a
[24:04] Speaker 1: quote that he wanted to give the insurance prospect, Cameron Twining,
[24:10] Speaker 1: the young bloke west of town at Maiden Gully. Basic things,
[24:14] Speaker 1: including details of the young bloke's age. Ray did not
[24:18] Speaker 1: specifically say to Blackshaw that he intended to go and
[24:22] Speaker 1: knock on Twining's door that Easter Tuesday, but by the
[24:26] Speaker 1: same token, Ray did not say that he was not.
[24:30] Speaker 6: Going out there either.
[24:32] Speaker 1: Ray did insist that he needed the details that he
[24:36] Speaker 1: wrote down on the pad at home for what he
[24:38] Speaker 1: described as a computer form and computer quote.
[24:43] Speaker 5: On a number of occasions, I've left things on the
[24:46] Speaker 5: notepad beside the phone. I rang Roz to get the
[24:49] Speaker 5: details for me. There was no answer. I thought, well,
[24:55] Speaker 5: she's either outside or having a shower. So I just
[24:59] Speaker 5: left it for 15 minutes. I rang back. There was
[25:03] Speaker 5: no answer. I kept trying Roz. I couldn't get Roz.
[25:09] Speaker 5: And she had made no mention of coming to Bendigo
[25:12] Speaker 5: in the morning. If she had been in Bendigo, it
[25:15] Speaker 5: would have been earlier than she would normally come in anyway.
[25:20] Speaker 5: I rang Vin McKenzie, my neighbour, just to go down
[25:24] Speaker 5: and see if her car was still in the carport.
[25:27] Speaker 5: Vin went down and found the car in the carport.
[25:31] Speaker 1: Sometimes, while poring over the entrails of a cold case
[25:35] Speaker 1: and examining the transcript pages of the police interviews with
[25:38] Speaker 1: persons of interest, you can get a mental picture of
[25:42] Speaker 1: the room they're sitting in, and you inevitably form a
[25:45] Speaker 1: view about the experience and professionalism of the detective leading
[25:50] Speaker 1: the questioning.
[25:52] Speaker 6: As a questioner, Detective.
[25:53] Speaker 1: Senior Sergeant Ron Blackshaw presents as a confident pro He
[25:59] Speaker 1: was listening to Ray's answers and shaping new questions based
[26:03] Speaker 1: on what.
[26:03] Speaker 6: Came out of Ray's mouth. The cop left little out.
[26:08] Speaker 6: He was all over Ray McQueen like a dangerous rash.
[26:12] Speaker 2: Why did you get Vin to go down and see
[26:14] Speaker 2: if the car was in the carport?
[26:16] Speaker 5: Well, because if Rosalind's car wasn't there, I would know
[26:19] Speaker 5: she was out.
[26:21] Speaker 2: Assuming Rosalind's car is there, it still doesn't get the
[26:23] Speaker 2: documents for you, does it?
[26:25] Speaker 1: No.
[26:26] Speaker 2: How long do you think it would take Vin McKenzie
[26:28] Speaker 2: to get himself organised to go to your place, get
[26:30] Speaker 2: back and ring you?
[26:32] Speaker 5: About 10 to 15 minutes.
[26:34] Speaker 2: And then if the car was out, you still haven't
[26:36] Speaker 2: got your documents, have you?
[26:38] Speaker 7: No.
[26:39] Speaker 2: So the only way you're going to get your documents
[26:41] Speaker 2: is to go out to the house and get them,
[26:42] Speaker 2: isn't it?
[26:43] Speaker 5: Yes.
[26:45] Speaker 2: Why didn't you jump in the car and get your documents?
[26:47] Speaker 5: Well, the phone call was quicker than the car.
[26:50] Speaker 2: But Rosalind's not answering the phone. As far as you
[26:52] Speaker 2: were concerned, she's not there. Isn't that right?
[26:56] Speaker 5: What do you mean she's not there?
[26:57] Speaker 2: Well, if she was there, she would answer the phone,
[26:59] Speaker 2: wouldn't she?
[27:01] Speaker 13: Yeah.
[27:02] Speaker 2: Because she didn't answer the phone. Did you think she
[27:04] Speaker 2: wasn't there?
[27:05] Speaker 5: I just asked Vinnie to go down, and if the
[27:07] Speaker 5: car wasn't there, I was going to ring Mum, to
[27:10] Speaker 5: see if she was in at Mum's. That's where she
[27:13] Speaker 5: always heads to first, was to Mum's.
[27:17] Speaker 2: How's that going to get you documents, that you say
[27:19] Speaker 2: were next to the phone at Lockwood?
[27:21] Speaker 5: It's not. Not in any way.
[27:24] Speaker 2: But that's your object in ringing, isn't it?
[27:27] Speaker 5: Right.
[27:29] Speaker 6: The detective had a view of Ray McQueen.
[27:32] Speaker 1: He plainly suspected that Ray had killed Roz in a
[27:36] Speaker 1: case of premeditated murder and that the documents were not
[27:40] Speaker 1: forgotten but left behind deliberately so that Ray would have
[27:44] Speaker 1: some sort of justification to telephone Vin and have his
[27:48] Speaker 1: neighbour check on Roz. Ron Blackshaw believed that Ray knew
[27:53] Speaker 1: Roz was dead when Ray telephoned the house and then
[27:56] Speaker 1: called Vin to ask him about Roz. The theory the
[28:00] Speaker 1: detective had warmed to was that Ray would not have
[28:03] Speaker 1: wanted his daughter Jodie to be exposed to the macabre
[28:06] Speaker 1: scene for longer than was absolutely necessary. Ray definitely did
[28:11] Speaker 1: not want Jodie to be on her own in the
[28:14] Speaker 1: house all day with her mother's body slumped across a chair.
[28:18] Speaker 1: So he used Vin as the unknowing Good Samaritan to
[28:22] Speaker 1: discover the terrible scene. It's important to emphasise that.
[28:26] Speaker 6: This was and is the theory. The evidence was circumstantial.
[28:33] Speaker 1: Ron Blackshaw's questioning of Ray about his story of the
[28:36] Speaker 1: documents and Roz not picking up the phone and then
[28:40] Speaker 1: the contact with Vin was the detective stress testing the claims.
[28:45] Speaker 2: Mr McQueen, I put it to you that with all
[28:47] Speaker 2: the phone calls and the time it would take Vin
[28:49] Speaker 2: McKenzie to do what you asked him to do, it
[28:51] Speaker 2: would be quicker for you to get in your car,
[28:53] Speaker 2: go to Lockwood and get the documents.
[28:55] Speaker 5: No, that would be probably half an hour to go out,
[28:59] Speaker 5: get it and get back.
[29:02] Speaker 2: I put it to you that you wanted McKenzie to
[29:03] Speaker 2: go into your house that morning.
[29:05] Speaker 5: Why? I don't see what you're getting at. For what
[29:09] Speaker 5: reason would I want him to do that?
[29:11] Speaker 2: Simply because your child, Jodie, was in the house with
[29:13] Speaker 2: your wife's dead body. which had to be discovered.
[29:17] Speaker 5: I didn't know.
[29:17] Speaker 1: No?
[29:18] Speaker 5: You were accusing me or something?
[29:21] Speaker 2: Now, you were prepared to send Mackenzie down to find
[29:23] Speaker 2: your wife.
[29:24] Speaker 5: Not to find her like that. I had nothing to
[29:27] Speaker 5: do with the death of my wife.
[29:30] Speaker 2: Well, how were things between you and your wife in
[29:32] Speaker 2: the days and weeks leading to her death?
[29:35] Speaker 5: We were not talking like we normally could have talked.
[29:38] Speaker 2: Would you say things were bad? a bit bad between you?
[29:42] Speaker 5: Ros and I sat down and talked at length. There
[29:45] Speaker 5: was no suggestion of any move toward a marriage breakup.
[29:48] Speaker 1: MUSIC The detective asked Ray to elaborate further on the
[30:16] Speaker 1: last few weeks of his relationship, his marriage, with Roz.
[30:21] Speaker 6: Ray described it in two words. Very quiet.
[30:26] Speaker 2: I don't understand what you mean by quiet.
[30:29] Speaker 5: We hadn't been able to discuss things as we normally would.
[30:34] Speaker 2: Was there any talk of divorce?
[30:36] Speaker 5: No, I have never mentioned divorce. Ros may have told people.
[30:41] Speaker 2: Are you saying that you have not considered divorcing Roslyn?
[30:45] Speaker 5: Yes, I have never considered divorcing her.
[30:49] Speaker 1: Ron Blackshaw circled back to Ray's dealings with family law
[30:53] Speaker 1: after he had separated from his first wife, Jeanette. He
[30:57] Speaker 1: asked Ray to tell him about it again.
[31:01] Speaker 5: Yes, I don't think it is fair. The way they
[31:04] Speaker 5: settle property and things. I had to be prepared to
[31:07] Speaker 5: accept what the judge determined was fair. I know that
[31:10] Speaker 5: things had to be left in the home for the family.
[31:13] Speaker 5: I lost more than half of my property.
[31:16] Speaker 2: Do you think you could have gone through another property
[31:18] Speaker 2: settlement if your second marriage to Rosslyn ended in divorce?
[31:22] Speaker 5: There was no suggestion of that. There was no threat
[31:25] Speaker 5: at all to the marriage.
[31:27] Speaker 2: Well, the thing is that Rosslyn thought that there was
[31:29] Speaker 2: some chance of divorce.
[31:31] Speaker 5: I know she did.
[31:32] Speaker 2: And the worry of divorce was held by Rosalind for
[31:34] Speaker 2: about six months prior to her death, wasn't it?
[31:37] Speaker 5: She had talked to my mother about it, yes. I
[31:41] Speaker 5: had never said anything that would make her think I
[31:44] Speaker 5: would divorce her.
[31:46] Speaker 2: And I further put it to you that her concern
[31:48] Speaker 2: was that Donna Manalik was a threat to your marriage.
[31:51] Speaker 5: Yep, we talked about it.
[31:53] Speaker 2: As recently as Monday, the day before your wife's death,
[31:57] Speaker 2: we've been told of a conversation that took place between
[31:59] Speaker 2: you and Donna Manalik. So we have a period of
[32:01] Speaker 2: six months where Rosalind is considering the marriage as threatened.
[32:05] Speaker 2: It's also said that you became upset when told by
[32:07] Speaker 2: Donna that Rosalind had approached her with her fears.
[32:11] Speaker 5: I can't remember that conversation.
[32:13] Speaker 2: Do you remember becoming angry during any conversation with Donna
[32:16] Speaker 2: Manalik on the Monday prior to your wife's death?
[32:19] Speaker 8: No.
[32:19] Speaker 5: I didn't get angry at all.
[32:23] Speaker 2: May I read to you from a statement made by
[32:25] Speaker 2: Donna Manalik?
[32:26] Speaker 5: Yes. Go ahead.
[32:28] Speaker 1: The detective went to page 9 of the statement given
[32:31] Speaker 1: a few days earlier by Donna. She had very recently
[32:35] Speaker 1: turned 17.
[32:39] Speaker 7: About two weeks before Ros died, I went to a
[32:42] Speaker 7: barbecue at Ray's place with my mum and dad. While
[32:46] Speaker 7: I was there, Ros said to me, I don't know
[32:48] Speaker 7: what to do. I found it very hard to talk
[32:50] Speaker 7: to him and it seems like he doesn't want to listen.
[32:53] Speaker 7: I'm scared that he's going to want to divorce me.
[32:57] Speaker 7: I then said to her, Don't be stupid. You're the
[33:00] Speaker 7: only thing he's got and he loves you.
[33:04] Speaker 1: The third paragraph was Donna's account of what she had
[33:07] Speaker 1: told Ray about it at tennis on the Monday.
[33:10] Speaker 6: You heard it earlier.
[33:12] Speaker 2: Do you agree with that account of your conversation with
[33:14] Speaker 2: Donna Manalik at tennis on the Monday just prior to
[33:17] Speaker 2: your wife's death? That was the day before.
[33:19] Speaker 5: Yes, I do.
[33:21] Speaker 2: Did you take the matter up with your wife?
[33:23] Speaker 5: I don't know.
[33:25] Speaker 2: Did you speak to her about it when you got home?
[33:27] Speaker 6: Yes.
[33:28] Speaker 2: And what did you say to her?
[33:30] Speaker 5: We just discussed it like we had discussed it before.
[33:33] Speaker 5: That there was no need to worry about anything.
[33:36] Speaker 2: And what did your wife have to say?
[33:38] Speaker 5: Nothing really. She seemed to accept what I told her.
[33:42] Speaker 2: And what did you tell her?
[33:44] Speaker 5: Just that there was nothing at all between Donna and I.
[33:49] Speaker 2: Were you concerned that your wife had approached Donna Manalik
[33:51] Speaker 2: with her fears?
[33:53] Speaker 1: No.
[33:54] Speaker 5: She can talk to whoever she likes. and Donna was
[33:57] Speaker 5: a friend of Rosalind's.
[34:00] Speaker 2: Did your mother ever approach you and ask you about
[34:02] Speaker 2: your relationship with Donna Manali?
[34:04] Speaker 7: Yes.
[34:05] Speaker 2: What were the circumstances of this approach?
[34:08] Speaker 5: Rosalind had gone to my mother and said she was
[34:11] Speaker 5: worried that I was taking too much notice of Donna.
[34:15] Speaker 5: I said that I was just teaching her tennis and
[34:17] Speaker 5: helping her, and that was true.
[34:20] Speaker 2: But your mother was concerned?
[34:22] Speaker 5: Yes, but only because of what Rosalind had told her.
[34:27] Speaker 2: Do you know anything about strychnine poison?
[34:30] Speaker 6: It was a killer question.
[34:32] Speaker 1: Did Ray McQueen stare it down?
[34:35] Speaker 6: Or did he flinch?
[34:37] Speaker 1: His interview in the Bendigo CIB occurred a few years
[34:41] Speaker 1: before Victoria Police started video recording suspects in serious crimes.
[34:46] Speaker 1: In the absence of the technology, disagreements and legal challenges
[34:50] Speaker 1: about what had been purportedly said.
[34:53] Speaker 6: Or admitted in the interview room were routine.
[34:56] Speaker 1: But with the advent of the video camera, police, prosecutors,
[35:01] Speaker 1: defence lawyers and suspects could go back afterwards, play the tape.
[35:06] Speaker 6: And watch and hear everything.
[35:08] Speaker 1: The body language of suspects during questioning from seasoned detectives
[35:12] Speaker 1: such as Ron Blackshaw was studied too. Videotaped interviews became
[35:18] Speaker 1: the norm. The footage protected police from false smears. Suspects
[35:23] Speaker 1: were protected from false confessions. But in July 1986, we
[35:28] Speaker 1: know that there were no cameras inside the Bendigo CIB.
[35:33] Speaker 6: There is no videotape of Ray McQueen's interview.
[35:37] Speaker 1: The detectives took handwritten notes. How he looked when asked
[35:42] Speaker 1: the question about his personal knowledge, if any, of the
[35:45] Speaker 1: poison which had killed his wife remains a mystery.
[35:49] Speaker 6: McQueen replied, No.
[35:51] Speaker 5: I had no idea about it at all. As you
[35:54] Speaker 5: can understand, I've talked about it since. I've had nothing
[35:58] Speaker 5: to do with strychnine whatsoever.
[36:01] Speaker 2: Nothing whatsoever?
[36:03] Speaker 5: Right.
[36:04] Speaker 2: You come from the land, don't you?
[36:07] Speaker 6: Yes.
[36:08] Speaker 5: Does everybody that comes from the land know what strychnine does?
[36:12] Speaker 5: I know it was a deadly poison. That's all I
[36:15] Speaker 5: know about it.
[36:17] Speaker 1: Now we are going to take a brief break from
[36:20] Speaker 1: the homicide detective's questioning of Ray McQueen because with that
[36:25] Speaker 1: mention of strychnine, it's a good opportunity to share some
[36:29] Speaker 1: parts of my conversations with two very helpful women, both
[36:34] Speaker 1: of whom knew Ray. On my first visit to interview
[36:39] Speaker 1: Debbie Weegard about Ray and Donna's time together at the
[36:42] Speaker 1: tennis club, Debbie told me about her elderly friend with
[36:47] Speaker 1: deep ties to the McQueen family. Ties that went right
[36:51] Speaker 1: back to when Ray was a boy and then a
[36:53] Speaker 1: young man working on his parents' farm in Beulah.
[36:58] Speaker 6: And I'd played bowls with this lady.
[37:00] Speaker 3: She rang me and she said, my husband owned the
[37:03] Speaker 3: chemical place in Beulah. And the police interviewed her husband
[37:08] Speaker 3: at the time.
[37:10] Speaker 1: As Rex and I sat at her kitchen table, Debbie
[37:13] Speaker 1: made a call and then she left a message for
[37:16] Speaker 1: her friend. When she rang back, they started chatting.
[37:23] Speaker 5: Oh, I'm good. I'll tell you what I'm ringing about.
[37:28] Speaker 3: I've got two gentlemen here and they are doing a
[37:32] Speaker 3: bit of researching on Ray.
[37:37] Speaker 6: Ray McQueen.
[37:39] Speaker 3: And they were wondering whether they could come and have
[37:41] Speaker 3: a word with you. But they just really want to
[37:44] Speaker 3: just know more in the background of them. So can
[37:48] Speaker 3: they call around and see you?
[37:50] Speaker 6: Yes, where?
[37:52] Speaker 7: Now.
[37:53] Speaker 12: Oh, yes, yes.
[37:54] Speaker 6: You tell them.
[37:55] Speaker 1: I'm a real old girl?
[37:59] Speaker 3: I said that you're a very old lady, but your
[38:01] Speaker 3: mind's switched on.
[38:04] Speaker 5: Really switched on.
[38:06] Speaker 3: I'll send these guys on their merry way.
[38:10] Speaker 5: Okay, see ya.
[38:11] Speaker 2: What a good old stick.
[38:14] Speaker 1: Twenty minutes later, Rex and I were back in Kangaroo
[38:17] Speaker 1: Flat and talking to Debbie's friend, who is in her
[38:21] Speaker 1: 90th year. She still plays piano for a local church service.
[38:26] Speaker 1: She was happy to talk, but asked us to leave
[38:29] Speaker 1: her name out of the storytelling. Her voice would be fine,
[38:32] Speaker 1: just not her full name, so we are going to
[38:35] Speaker 1: call her Anne. Anne's home for half a century was Beulah,
[38:40] Speaker 1: the small southern Mallee town where the McQueens were once
[38:44] Speaker 1: deeply rooted. Tourism guides describe Beulah today as an oasis
[38:49] Speaker 1: in the heart of Victoria's Wheatbelt.
[38:53] Speaker 13: Of course, a lot of kids those days came home
[38:57] Speaker 13: on the farm and mum and dad went to town,
[39:00] Speaker 13: but today... None of them come home on the farm.
[39:04] Speaker 13: They get out and make a new life for themselves.
[39:08] Speaker 13: They don't seem to think there's enough in farming.
[39:12] Speaker 1: When Anne's husband started having health problems, they left too.
[39:17] Speaker 1: They retired to the big smoke of Bendigo, just over
[39:20] Speaker 1: 200 kilometres southeast of the town in which they'd run
[39:24] Speaker 1: their business and raised their family.
[39:27] Speaker 13: When you live in Beulah, you don't have a doctor.
[39:31] Speaker 1: But Beulah does have a place in Australian cinema, thanks
[39:35] Speaker 1: to the author Jane Harper and film director and writer
[39:38] Speaker 1: Robert Connolly. His hit movie, The Dry, starring Eric Banner
[39:44] Speaker 1: as a federal agent returning to his hometown. To try
[39:48] Speaker 1: to solve a murder mystery was filmed in and around Beulah.
[39:53] Speaker 1: It was a great movie with some killer lines.
[39:57] Speaker 6: You're convinced he did it?
[39:59] Speaker 9: What do you think?
[40:02] Speaker 12: Why would I lie?
[40:04] Speaker 4: When you've been lying about something for so long, it
[40:08] Speaker 4: becomes second nature.
[40:10] Speaker 6: Under the Milky Way.
[40:12] Speaker 1: Tonight Beulah's main street, buildings, cemetery and the unforgiving bush
[40:21] Speaker 1: landscape all around got global screen attention.
[40:25] Speaker 6: Good life when you were there?
[40:27] Speaker 12: Oh, loved it. Oh, yes.
[40:30] Speaker 13: Wonderful life. 49 and a half years I had in Beulah.
[40:35] Speaker 13: Wonderful life. Oh, I was there a fortnight ago. But
[40:40] Speaker 13: we don't go back very often. I went for a funeral.
[40:43] Speaker 13: They're the only things I go back for now.
[40:46] Speaker 2: But there's no pub or supermarket anymore.
[40:48] Speaker 13: No, that was sad. The pub closed down in COVID
[40:52] Speaker 13: and never reopened. Had a state bank, a chemist shop,
[40:57] Speaker 13: an estate agent, a news agent, a bank, a cafe,
[41:02] Speaker 13: all closed on that side. And this side had a bank.
[41:07] Speaker 13: It had a butcher. It had a florist shop. It
[41:12] Speaker 13: had a baker. It had a hairdresser. No, there's nothing
[41:16] Speaker 13: in the street. And the store burnt down.
[41:20] Speaker 1: Anne and her husband were good friends with Ray McQueen's father, Kevin,
[41:25] Speaker 1: and Ray's mother, Beryl.
[41:27] Speaker 13: Very good family. Good living family. Went to church every Sunday.
[41:32] Speaker 13: Very well regarded. They were a generational family of McQueen's.
[41:39] Speaker 13: The grandfather had the farm, split it up for the sons.
[41:44] Speaker 13: Ray's father, another one, Ron, and another one, Alan. I
[41:50] Speaker 13: don't know terribly much about what happened to Ray in Bendigo,
[41:54] Speaker 13: but we did still visit Beryl and Kevin. He was
[41:58] Speaker 13: in the lodge, the Masons. He was very, very keen
[42:03] Speaker 13: on the lodge, Kevin. And, well, I suppose you would
[42:08] Speaker 13: say a good friend of my husband's. My husband was...
[42:12] Speaker 13: In the grand Lodge team of Victoria in 1977, Beryl
[42:17] Speaker 13: and Kevin always came with us.
[42:22] Speaker 1: Anne is referring to Freemasonry, once a rigidly structured fraternal
[42:27] Speaker 1: network of members who looked out for each other. In
[42:30] Speaker 1: the 1970s in Victoria, it was a formal and influential
[42:35] Speaker 1: secretive society. Only men could become Masons. They practised symbolic rituals,
[42:42] Speaker 1: there were secret handshakes and they lived by foundational tenets
[42:47] Speaker 1: like loyalty and mutual protection. Anne told me that Ray's parents,
[42:52] Speaker 1: Kevin and Beryl McQueen, backed Ray to the hilt when
[42:56] Speaker 1: he was accused of having murdered Roz.
[42:59] Speaker 13: They stood by Ray, no worries about that. They thought
[43:03] Speaker 13: he was innocent is the word.
[43:07] Speaker 1: In 1986, the homicide squad's probe into Ros McQueen's murder
[43:12] Speaker 1: led to Anne's husband being questioned about sales of strychnine
[43:16] Speaker 1: at his rural supplies business.
[43:19] Speaker 13: He was approached at the time to go through his
[43:22] Speaker 13: poisons book to see if he'd sold McQueen's strychnine whenever.
[43:29] Speaker 13: He'd just write the people's names in what they bought.
[43:33] Speaker 5: It was just an exercise book.
[43:36] Speaker 13: He sold a lot of poisons because mice plagues.
[43:40] Speaker 1: So do you recall what the result was when your
[43:43] Speaker 1: husband was asked?
[43:45] Speaker 13: He couldn't find it.
[43:47] Speaker 6: Couldn't find what?
[43:48] Speaker 13: Where they'd bought it. It's a very interesting case for Bueller,
[43:53] Speaker 13: in case you don't realise.
[43:56] Speaker 6: Because of the McQueen connection?
[43:57] Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, yes.
[43:59] Speaker 13: It was hot news at the.
[44:02] Speaker 6: Time, yes. Lots of rumours.
[44:05] Speaker 13: Oh, yes, yes.
[44:06] Speaker 5: How could he do it?
[44:08] Speaker 13: How did he do it?
[44:09] Speaker 6: That suggests that there was an assumption that he had
[44:11] Speaker 6: done it.
[44:13] Speaker 13: An assumption of a query. Had he or hadn't he?
[44:18] Speaker 13: I don't comment on that, really, because it is just
[44:23] Speaker 13: so unbelievable. A shocking, shocking thing. But I'm quite sure
[44:30] Speaker 13: she was poisoned.
[44:31] Speaker 9: Yeah.
[44:32] Speaker 7: Yeah.
[44:33] Speaker 13: Just how it got into her, I can't.
[44:35] Speaker 5: Tell you that.
[44:37] Speaker 1: Now let's go back to Detective Senior Sergeant Ron Blackshaw's
[44:41] Speaker 1: interview in 1986 with the then-murder suspect, Ray McQueen.
[44:47] Speaker 2: What dealings have you had with poisons?
[44:50] Speaker 5: Weed killer, insecticides, spraying grain and spraying crops and rat sack.
[44:56] Speaker 2: What poisons have you dealt with since you moved to Bendigo?
[45:00] Speaker 5: Only rat sack and weed killer and insecticide for spraying
[45:03] Speaker 5: apple trees.
[45:05] Speaker 2: Have you ever seen any poisons around your property at Lockwood?
[45:08] Speaker 5: No poison apart from what I said.
[45:10] Speaker 2: Do you know of any person who has laid poison
[45:13] Speaker 2: in the Lockwood area?
[45:15] Speaker 5: No, not to my knowledge.
[45:18] Speaker 2: Have you seen any poisons in existence out at Lockwood
[45:20] Speaker 2: for any vermin or for any.
[45:22] Speaker 5: Other reason whatsoever? No, absolutely not.
[45:27] Speaker 2: Has poison ever been mentioned at Lockwood for any vermin
[45:29] Speaker 2: or for any other reason whatsoever?
[45:31] Speaker 5: There has been mention at Lockwood for any vermin. It
[45:36] Speaker 5: has been mentioned.
[45:38] Speaker 6: Finally, an opening. A chink in the wall.
[45:42] Speaker 1: The detective could guess what Ray was about to disclose.
[45:46] Speaker 1: Other witnesses had already shared with police what Ray had
[45:51] Speaker 1: told them about his older neighbour.
[45:54] Speaker 2: Would you tell me more?
[45:56] Speaker 5: It was mentioned by Vin McKenzie, by Peter Dixon.
[46:01] Speaker 2: What did Dixon say?
[46:03] Speaker 5: Dixon said that last year, well, he said that McKenzie
[46:07] Speaker 5: was very crook for two or three months. He wouldn't
[46:11] Speaker 5: go to the doctor or anything about his illness and
[46:15] Speaker 5: couldn't eat anything without throwing it up. I used to
[46:18] Speaker 5: borrow his slasher and rotary hoe, and Peter Dixon used
[46:23] Speaker 5: to borrow it. and Peter used it to slash between
[46:27] Speaker 5: his fruit trees and he wrecked the power shaft on it.
[46:31] Speaker 5: He took it back to Mackenzie and told him. Vin
[46:35] Speaker 5: was not happy about the damage and had a big
[46:38] Speaker 5: blue with Peter Dixon and his wife. He went crook
[46:42] Speaker 5: at the kids and everything. Peter came down and told
[46:45] Speaker 5: me that Vin Mackenzie had told them that he had
[46:49] Speaker 5: got enough strychnine up there to do a lot of damage.
[46:54] Speaker 2: Are you quite sure that was said?
[46:56] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[46:57] Speaker 5: And Peter Dixon followed that up by saying, I wouldn't
[47:00] Speaker 5: trust that old bugger.
[47:02] Speaker 2: So you have in your mind that Vin McKenzie has
[47:05] Speaker 2: possession or at least access to strychnine at his house.
[47:08] Speaker 2: Is that correct?
[47:09] Speaker 5: You could say that, yes.
[47:12] Speaker 2: Are you suggesting that Vin McKenzie could be a possible
[47:14] Speaker 2: source for the strychnine that killed your wife?
[47:17] Speaker 5: It could be. I wouldn't put it past him.
[47:21] Speaker 2: Has Mackenzie ever made a threat to any of your family?
[47:24] Speaker 13: No.
[47:26] Speaker 5: He's just a bit strange.
[47:28] Speaker 2: Let me point out to you the seriousness of what
[47:30] Speaker 2: you've just said. Are you actually telling me that you
[47:32] Speaker 2: suspect Mackenzie of being the source of the poison that
[47:35] Speaker 2: killed your wife?
[47:36] Speaker 13: No.
[47:38] Speaker 5: I'm saying that I wouldn't put it past him. That's all.
[47:42] Speaker 2: But can you tell me why you say that?
[47:44] Speaker 5: Just because I believe that he had it. That's why.
[47:48] Speaker 2: And did you have knowledge or belief that Mackenzie had
[47:50] Speaker 2: the poison and was Strange before your wife died?
[47:54] Speaker 5: Yes.
[47:54] Speaker 2: Why didn't you mention this before?
[47:57] Speaker 5: I didn't want to say anything before.
[47:59] Speaker 2: Mr McQueen, your wife was killed by the administration of
[48:02] Speaker 2: the poison strychnine. Surely you would realise the importance of
[48:05] Speaker 2: what you have just told me.
[48:07] Speaker 5: Yes, I do. It was something I just thought and
[48:11] Speaker 5: didn't say till now.
[48:13] Speaker 6: The homicide cop didn't believe him.
[48:16] Speaker 2: If you had the belief that Mackenzie was strange... Why
[48:19] Speaker 2: did you ask him to go down to your house
[48:21] Speaker 2: and check on your wife?
[48:23] Speaker 5: I just asked him to see if the car was there.
[48:25] Speaker 2: If you had those thoughts about Mackenzie, don't you think
[48:28] Speaker 2: you would be placing your wife in jeopardy by sending
[48:30] Speaker 2: Mackenzie to check on her?
[48:32] Speaker 5: I didn't ask him to go into the house.
[48:35] Speaker 2: Mr McQueen, you tell me that you believed Mackenzie had
[48:38] Speaker 2: the strychnine, is that correct?
[48:39] Speaker 5: Yes.
[48:40] Speaker 2: Mackenzie went to your house at your request, didn't he?
[48:44] Speaker 6: No.
[48:45] Speaker 2: Did you make a telephone call to him or not?
[48:47] Speaker 6: Yes.
[48:48] Speaker 2: Alright, well your wife died of strychnine poisoning.
[48:51] Speaker 6: Yes.
[48:51] Speaker 2: And Mackenzie's known to you to have possession of strychnine,
[48:54] Speaker 2: is that right?
[48:55] Speaker 5: Yes. That's what I was told anyway.
[48:59] Speaker 2: Now have you ever seen strychnine before?
[49:02] Speaker 5: I have never seen strychnine before.
[49:04] Speaker 2: But do you know what it looks like?
[49:06] Speaker 5: Yes, because I've asked people what it is. I didn't
[49:10] Speaker 5: know if it was a liquid or powder or tablet.
[49:14] Speaker 5: I have been told that it is a powder. A
[49:17] Speaker 5: fine powder.
[49:19] Speaker 2: Who told you that?
[49:20] Speaker 5: My father.
[49:22] Speaker 1: Ray McQueen said he had also been told by another
[49:25] Speaker 1: life insurance agent, Max Henderson, who had some experience with strychnine.
[49:31] Speaker 6: The detective changed gears.
[49:34] Speaker 2: There is another matter, your wife having cancer. Have you
[49:36] Speaker 2: told anyone else that your wife had cancer?
[49:39] Speaker 5: Roz told people herself.
[49:42] Speaker 2: I have information that you made issue with certain people
[49:44] Speaker 2: that your wife had cancer.
[49:47] Speaker 5: I had been told that she had a growth that
[49:49] Speaker 5: could turn cancerous.
[49:51] Speaker 2: Who told you that?
[49:52] Speaker 5: Dr. King told me.
[49:54] Speaker 2: What else were you told about this?
[49:56] Speaker 5: Nothing, really.
[49:58] Speaker 2: Nothing else at all?
[49:59] Speaker 5: I'd been told that cauterizing could cure it. There was
[50:03] Speaker 5: a 90% chance of a cure.
[50:06] Speaker 2: Did you ever suggest to anyone that your wife may
[50:08] Speaker 2: have died of cancer?
[50:10] Speaker 5: No, she had been to the doctor on the Thursday
[50:13] Speaker 5: before Good Friday. We told our friends at Redcliffs when
[50:18] Speaker 5: we were up there at Easter and we told people
[50:21] Speaker 5: after we got back on the Easter and Sunday and Monday.
[50:26] Speaker 5: I know there was no threat at all from cancer.
[50:31] Speaker 1: In the interview room at Bendigo Police Station, Detective Senior
[50:34] Speaker 1: Sergeant Ron Blackshaw asked Ray McQueen about financial motives.
[50:40] Speaker 2: Do you stand to gain financially from your wife's death?
[50:44] Speaker 5: Yes.
[50:46] Speaker 2: How much?
[50:46] Speaker 1: $ 15, 000.
[50:48] Speaker 5: To $ 17, 000. I've already received about $ 5, 000 on an interim
[50:54] Speaker 5: death certificate, so it would be about.
[50:57] Speaker 7: $ 10, 000.
[50:58] Speaker 5: To $ 12, 000 perhaps.
[51:01] Speaker 2: Was the insurance on Rosalind's life increased recently?
[51:05] Speaker 5: I didn't apply to update the insurance on her life.
[51:08] Speaker 2: What were the circumstances?
[51:11] Speaker 5: We had talked about it 18 months ago, before I
[51:14] Speaker 5: even started in life insurance. We talked about it off
[51:18] Speaker 5: and on.
[51:19] Speaker 2: But you actually upgraded the insurance on your wife's life recently,
[51:22] Speaker 2: didn't you?
[51:23] Speaker 5: Yeah, since I've started with National Mutual and that, since
[51:28] Speaker 5: August of last year. That was because I understand life
[51:32] Speaker 5: insurance a bit better.
[51:34] Speaker 1: It was a telling but also perplexing exchange. McQueen initially
[51:40] Speaker 1: said that he had not applied to update.
[51:43] Speaker 6: The insurance on Roz's life.
[51:45] Speaker 1: And then when the detective put to him that he
[51:48] Speaker 1: recently had upgraded the insurance on Roz's life, Ray confirmed
[51:53] Speaker 1: that was true.
[51:54] Speaker 6: He had.
[51:55] Speaker 1: So had the insurance salesman lied the first time and
[51:58] Speaker 1: then come clean when it was obvious the detective already
[52:02] Speaker 1: knew what had happened? The detective didn't press Ray.
[52:06] Speaker 6: Further on this.
[52:08] Speaker 1: In the 1980s in Victoria, there was a designation called
[52:13] Speaker 1: the police surgeon, and he or she was a doctor
[52:16] Speaker 1: with skills in clinical forensic medicine, employed by police.
[52:21] Speaker 6: Surgery was not part of the job.
[52:24] Speaker 1: The role included looking after vulnerable people who appeared traumatised.
[52:29] Speaker 1: It included examining certain victims of sensitive crimes, crimes such
[52:34] Speaker 1: as rape, Children who had been witnesses or victims of
[52:38] Speaker 1: violent crime were often assessed by the police surgeon.
[52:43] Speaker 2: Are you aware that I have requested that your daughter
[52:45] Speaker 2: Jodie be interviewed by the police surgeon to see if
[52:48] Speaker 2: she can throw any light on the events which occurred
[52:50] Speaker 2: at your home at Lockwood on April 1, 1986?
[52:54] Speaker 5: Yes, I discussed that with my mother and she didn't
[52:57] Speaker 5: think it was a good idea for Jodie to be
[52:59] Speaker 5: interrogated like that. She did not think it should be done.
[53:04] Speaker 2: Well, you were the child's father. Is there any reason
[53:07] Speaker 2: you do not want the child seen by the police surgeon?
[53:10] Speaker 5: She wouldn't be able to help. She's too young.
[53:13] Speaker 2: Well, have you asked your daughter what happened in the
[53:15] Speaker 2: house after you left for work on Tuesday, April 1, 1986?
[53:19] Speaker 5: No, I haven't.
[53:21] Speaker 2: Why not?
[53:23] Speaker 5: Why subject her to any more trauma?
[53:25] Speaker 2: Are you saying that you didn't even ask the child
[53:27] Speaker 2: what had happened? Or what her mother had said or
[53:30] Speaker 2: done just prior to her death?
[53:32] Speaker 5: Because I didn't. There is no reason why I didn't.
[53:37] Speaker 2: Mr McQueen, have you considered the circumstances surrounding your wife's
[53:40] Speaker 2: death in regards to the possibility of suicide?
[53:42] Speaker 5: I don't believe there is any possibility that she would
[53:46] Speaker 5: take her own life.
[53:48] Speaker 2: Well, have you got any ideas on the matter? Is
[53:50] Speaker 2: there anybody who you would suspect is being implicated in
[53:52] Speaker 2: causing the death of your wife?
[53:54] Speaker 5: I have no idea at all.
[53:57] Speaker 2: After reading reports of the position in which your wife's
[53:59] Speaker 2: body was found, It appears to me that her body
[54:02] Speaker 2: was lying on an armless kitchen chair with the buttocks
[54:05] Speaker 2: on the seat of the chair and the torso arched
[54:07] Speaker 2: backwards and the legs arched downwards. Do you consider it
[54:10] Speaker 2: strange that her body would come to rest in this position?
[54:14] Speaker 5: This is what I've been asking myself. I cannot understand
[54:18] Speaker 5: it at all. I can't understand how she would have
[54:21] Speaker 5: died an agonising death and been in that position. I
[54:26] Speaker 5: would have thought she would fall off the chair.
[54:28] Speaker 2: And when did you think this?
[54:30] Speaker 5: Since I found out she died from strychnine poison.
[54:34] Speaker 2: Have you mentioned this to anyone?
[54:36] Speaker 5: I mentioned it to my boss, John Ma. I've mentioned
[54:39] Speaker 5: it to my parents. I don't know. Friends that I've
[54:43] Speaker 5: talked to.
[54:44] Speaker 2: Well, it does seem strange that the body stayed on
[54:46] Speaker 2: the chair, doesn't it?
[54:48] Speaker 5: I can't understand why she wasn't found on the floor,
[54:51] Speaker 5: instead of being on the chair, where she was when
[54:54] Speaker 5: we walked in.
[54:55] Speaker 2: Was your wife dead when you left for work on
[54:57] Speaker 2: that day?
[54:58] Speaker 1: No.
[54:58] Speaker 5: She was alive and well when I left.
[55:02] Speaker 2: Did you kill your wife, Mr McQueen?
[55:04] Speaker 5: No way. No. I had nothing to do with the
[55:08] Speaker 5: death of my wife. I told you. I've seen a
[55:11] Speaker 5: solicitor and been given advice. I am prepared to assist you.
[55:16] Speaker 5: But I've told you all that I know. You seem
[55:20] Speaker 5: to have made up your mind that I killed Roslyn.
[55:23] Speaker 5: There is nothing more I can say that hasn't already
[55:25] Speaker 5: been said.
[55:27] Speaker 1: Ray said he did not want to be questioned further.
[55:31] Speaker 1: He refused to participate in a formal record of interview.
[55:35] Speaker 6: This would have.
[55:36] Speaker 1: Involved the detective Ron Blackshaw asking questions and typing all
[55:41] Speaker 1: the answers. Ray would have been asked to read through
[55:45] Speaker 1: the typed record, make any necessary corrections and then sign
[55:49] Speaker 1: it to confirm it was true and correct. The record
[55:52] Speaker 1: would have been admissible in a criminal trial.
[55:55] Speaker 2: In my opinion, the circumstances as I have put them
[55:58] Speaker 2: to you, surrounding the death of your wife Rosalind McQueen,
[56:01] Speaker 2: indicate that you were responsible for her death. You will
[56:03] Speaker 2: be charged with the common law offence of murder. You
[56:06] Speaker 2: are not obliged to say anything in answer to the
[56:08] Speaker 2: charge unless you wish to do so. Anything that you
[56:10] Speaker 2: do say will be written down by me and may
[56:12] Speaker 2: be given in evidence at a future court hearing. Do
[56:14] Speaker 2: you understand this?
[56:15] Speaker 5: Oh my God. I didn't do it. I had nothing
[56:18] Speaker 5: to do with Rosalind's death. I loved my wife. I
[56:22] Speaker 5: was devoted to her. I wouldn't do a thing to
[56:26] Speaker 5: hurt her. You think I killed Rosalind? I'm not going
[56:30] Speaker 5: to say that I did when I didn't. You've said
[56:34] Speaker 5: that I am to be charged. Charge me and that's that.
[56:38] Speaker 5: I want to make a phone call.
[56:40] Speaker 2: Very well. You may use the phone.
[56:44] Speaker 1: At 7.30pm on July 4, 1986, Raymond Kevin McQueen was
[56:50] Speaker 1: formally charged with the murder of Rosalind Joy McQueen. in
[56:55] Speaker 1: the next episode of The Poisoned Wife.
[56:59] Speaker 5: She was terrified, that woman, I can tell you right now.
[57:01] Speaker 5: She looked in fear of her life.
[57:03] Speaker 6: She did look really, really troubled.
[57:19] Speaker 1: The Poisoned Wife is investigated and written by me, Hedley Thomas,
[57:24] Speaker 1: and Carina Berger. Police statements and some other material have
[57:28] Speaker 1: been voice acted in the episodes in this podcast series.
[57:33] Speaker 1: Anyone with information about the death of Rosalind McQueen can
[57:37] Speaker 1: contact me confidentially at thepoisonedwife at theaustralian.com.au Our editorial director
[57:46] Speaker 1: is Claire Harvey. Audio production for The Poisoned Wife is
[57:50] Speaker 1: by Wasabi Audio and Slade Gibson. Special thanks to Tom Williams,
[57:55] Speaker 1: Sean Callinan, Andy Taylor, Greg Brown, Rowan Williams, Brittany English
[58:00] Speaker 1: and the Content Division, Adelaide Kennedy, Tani Strohet, Sophie Renee,
[58:06] Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sarah Elks, Erica Rutledge, Lydia Lynch, Chloe Barr,
[58:11] Speaker 1: John Paul Cashin, Will Seidem, Liliana Molina, Lara Kaminos, Suze Rolfe,
[58:17] Speaker 1: Chantelle Love, Patrick McKee, Byron Wilder, Stefania DiNicola, And, of course,
[58:34] Speaker 1: to the Australian's Editor-in-Chief, Michelle Gunn, and the editor, Kelvin Healy,
[58:39] Speaker 1: for affording us the time and resources to tackle these
[58:42] Speaker 1: important stories.
[58:46] Speaker 9: MUSIC

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