# Grace Out Loud | The Pastor Emeritus Returns! Episode 8

An episode of [🎙 Grace Out Loud](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6794405665), 9 Jun 2026, 25 min.

Audio: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/knw0e79c96iw38ru/yt_video_cwdxtpks2l0.mp4

Welcome back to Grace Out Loud, the podcast for honest conversations about faith that you don’t always hear on a Sunday morning. In Episode 8, Katie and Dom are joined by a very special guest—our Pastor Emeritus, Bryan Wilkerson! After stepping down from full-time ministry, Bryan shares his candid experience of visiting different churches as a regular attendee. He tackles the surprisingly common question: "Do we even want to go to church today?" If you've ever felt disconnected walking into a new church or wondered what makes a church community truly impactful, this episode provides incredible insight from a pastor who recently got to experience the "guest perspective" firsthand.

## Transcript

[0:03] \[music\]
[0:10] What's up everybody? Welcome to Grace
[0:13] Out Loud, a podcast for conversations
[0:15] about faith that you don't always hear
[0:17] on Sundays. I'm Katie Gau. He's Don
[0:19] Bronico. Today we are joined by a
[0:22] special guest, our pastor ameritus,
[0:25] Brian Wilkerson, our first guest here on
[0:29] the show. Thank you so much for joining
[0:30] us.
[0:31] >> Hey, thanks for asking. Always nice to
[0:33] connect.
[0:33] >> We're happy to have you here. Um, and we
[0:35] always like to start things off with a
[0:36] little bit of an icebreaker. So, we will
[0:38] let you kick it off because you are the
[0:41] expert on this one. Retired. So, what
[0:44] are the hobbies that we should be
[0:46] thinking about? What are the hobbies
[0:47] that you've gotten to start looking into
[0:49] or starting to do in your retirement?
[0:52] >> Well, I mean, the nice thing is you can
[0:54] do more of the same stuff. You just do
[0:55] it on your own time.
[0:56] >> Even better when you want, where you
[0:58] want. You avoid the crowds. But probably
[1:00] the biggest would be traveling. Yeah.
[1:02] >> Just the ability to be able to just take
[1:03] off and go, get a car, train, plane,
[1:05] whatever. Just go
[1:07] >> stay an extra day if you want. Yeah.
[1:09] >> You know, let's extend the trip. There's
[1:11] no one to rush back for. There's no one
[1:12] waiting for us. That's awesome. So,
[1:14] we're doing a lot. We're on the road a
[1:16] lot. I like it. Loving it.
[1:17] >> Your favorite place you've traveled to?
[1:19] >> I mean, I have to say our grandkids in
[1:21] case they're watching. So, going
[1:22] \[laughter\] going to see our kids and
[1:23] grandkids, but they live in great
[1:24] places. Denver, Florida, New York.
[1:27] >> So, they're fun places to go.
[1:28] >> Those are all good spots. Dom, what
[1:29] would you do if you retired tomorrow?
[1:31] >> If I retired tomorrow, I think I I think
[1:33] I would want to do more art. I've kind
[1:34] of fallen off that and I want to get
[1:36] back on it. Um,
[1:38] >> I don't know if I would say this when I
[1:40] am retiring, but play video games. Like
[1:42] I don't know if \[laughter\] that's still
[1:43] something I will desire.
[1:45] >> Will you like that when you're at the
[1:46] time you could retire?
[1:47] >> Maybe there'll be even like more
[1:49] advanced video games.
[1:49] >> Yeah. You're already getting all that
[1:51] virtual reality. Who knows what you
[1:52] could do. Um for me, I would probably
[1:54] say go back to what I loved uh growing
[1:58] up, which was working in animal rescue.
[1:59] >> Oh, yeah.
[2:00] >> And maybe start my own little like
[2:02] foster based nonprofit rescue group.
[2:04] Basically, just collecting all the dogs
[2:07] \[laughter\]
[2:07] >> would be cool.
[2:08] >> That would be something that I would do.
[2:10] I've always thought that'd be a nice
[2:11] little uh hobby, so to speak. But we're
[2:13] talking about you today, Brian. We're
[2:15] talking a little bit about the
[2:16] experience that you've got to have in
[2:18] this new season of your life. And you
[2:20] spoke to us and our staff, and we we
[2:22] were so moved by some of the things that
[2:23] you had to say. Um,
[2:25] >> and it all started with the conversation
[2:27] that you and your wife were having of
[2:29] >> where should we go to church?
[2:31] Transitioning into a thought that I
[2:33] think we've all had. Do we even want to
[2:36] go? It's something that maybe you feel
[2:38] guilty saying, you know, when you're a
[2:39] Christian, but everybody thinks that way
[2:41] at some point. Lives are busy. So, tell
[2:43] us a little bit about kind of the
[2:45] conversation, how that started and what
[2:47] that process was like for you guys.
[2:49] >> Sure. Yeah. Well, initially it's kind of
[2:50] a nice thought. Hey, we can go anywhere
[2:52] we want to church. We can visit all
[2:53] these pastors and churches we've heard
[2:55] about that we've never been able to see.
[2:57] And so, it's fun for a little while, but
[2:59] then it gets oldfast. You know, where do
[3:02] you want to go today? I don't know.
[3:04] Here, there. and
[3:05] >> you know, you don't know anybody and you
[3:07] walk in and you're a stranger and
[3:08] there's no continuity.
[3:10] >> But then,
[3:11] >> so that was the first thing to get used
[3:13] to. The second thing to get used to was
[3:14] after some of those less than satisfying
[3:16] experiences to say,
[3:18] >> do we even want to go today? Because we
[3:21] don't we don't have to. A, I don't get
[3:23] paid to go, but B, I can follow Jesus
[3:26] without going to church.
[3:27] >> Sure.
[3:28] >> So, do I really need to and want to um
[3:32] because some of the experiences haven't
[3:33] been satisfying? That was a surprising
[3:35] question, but the aha behind that was,
[3:38] "Oh, this is how just about everybody
[3:41] else feels.
[3:43] >> Do I want to go today?" And
[3:45] >> you got to as a pastor, you don't often
[3:47] think that way. You just assume
[3:49] everyone's going.
[3:50] >> Yeah. Exactly. And like you said, you're
[3:51] getting paid to do it. Obviously, you
[3:53] enjoy it, but it's part of the job. So
[3:55] when you have that option um and it
[3:57] brings up a more interesting point of if
[3:59] people are choosing not to go to church
[4:02] what are maybe the reasons behind it and
[4:05] you said that you started to get the
[4:06] opportunity to explore churches not just
[4:08] around here but but all over when you
[4:10] were visiting Florida. Can you tell us a
[4:12] little bit about what your exploration
[4:14] sort of led you to discover about some
[4:16] reasons why not going to church is a
[4:19] more common option than people think?
[4:21] >> Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And probably
[4:23] the big picture is
[4:26] when you're used to going to church and
[4:28] you walk into a church, you can pretty
[4:29] easily figure out what's going on.
[4:31] >> And but what I began to realize is that
[4:34] as a guest
[4:35] >> to not know what's going on, you can
[4:37] begin to feel like an outsider and it's
[4:40] not all that satisfying. I I I compare
[4:43] it to maybe me walking into a casino.
[4:45] >> Yeah. I I don't know casinos. I I don't
[4:47] know what to do. I don't know how to
[4:49] act. I don't know how they work. I watch
[4:51] people maybe they seem to be having fun,
[4:54] but it doesn't look that fun to me. And
[4:56] I say, "Well, that was interesting, but
[4:57] I don't want to go to casinos, right?"
[4:59] And I wonder how many people feel that
[5:01] way about church. You people are having
[5:02] a great time. It's obvious that you
[5:04] enjoy it, and it's been a nice
[5:05] experience being here, but
[5:07] >> I don't need this every week. Yeah,
[5:08] >> that was an aha experience for me.
[5:11] >> So, what is it that's they're really
[5:14] looking for that's going to get them to
[5:15] come back again?
[5:16] >> Yeah. Um, so one of the first things I
[5:19] thought of was people are looking for a
[5:22] connection.
[5:22] >> They want to make a human connection,
[5:26] >> another human being who
[5:29] >> they can get close to, who might know
[5:31] them, value them, a place where they
[5:32] feel like people care about them. You
[5:34] hear so much about our disconnected
[5:36] society and people are lonely and in
[5:39] spite of social media, we're
[5:40] disconnected.
[5:41] >> To walk into a place and feel like, oh,
[5:43] there's some human connections here. I
[5:44] think people are desperately looking for
[5:46] that. Yeah. Well, Dom, that's, you know,
[5:48] being the connections guy for as long as
[5:50] \[laughter\] you have, you know, all about
[5:52] that. When you were listening to Brian
[5:54] talk about this before and again,
[5:56] >> I was like, he's saying everything I've
[5:57] been saying.
[5:58] >> Yeah. Well, what stands out to you?
[6:00] Like, cuz you you've gotten to sort of
[6:02] see the deer in headlights folks that
[6:04] walk in each week.
[6:05] >> Um, well, from from your talk, which was
[6:07] just so great. Like, literally, I was
[6:09] texting a group of us just like, "He's
[6:10] saying everything I've I've been wanting
[6:12] to say." Um, people really do want
[6:15] connection and it's not as easy as uh,
[6:18] well, they just come and they get
[6:19] plugged right in, right? Um,
[6:21] >> just say hello and that's it.
[6:23] >> Yeah. Um, so I actually had a chance to
[6:24] visit a bunch of different churches on
[6:26] sbatical and they're all great churches.
[6:28] none of these churches are bad. But I
[6:30] had this interesting experience where I
[6:31] went into one and I was kind of like I
[6:34] hope I hope they don't try to try to say
[6:37] hi to me, try to welcome me, try to
[6:39] because I I kind of just wanted to like
[6:41] coast and leave.
[6:43] >> And I had this bizarre experience where
[6:44] nobody really said hi to me. The service
[6:46] let out and everyone got up and left and
[6:48] I was like nobody said hi to me.
[6:50] \[laughter\] Like and I and I realized
[6:52] like wait I didn't want that but now I
[6:54] feel like
[6:55] >> how did they not do that? And I think
[6:57] like everybody um wants to be reached
[7:02] out to and the busyiness and the
[7:04] hecticness of life uh and all the hurry
[7:07] that we have make it so that if there
[7:10] isn't a clear pathway and if a church
[7:12] isn't intentional about seeking out who
[7:16] isn't connected yet,
[7:17] >> people are just going to fall by the
[7:18] wayside. And it's not out of um uh
[7:22] intentional negligence or animosity,
[7:25] right? It's just that when we get
[7:28] comfortable and we get in our in our
[7:30] clicks and our communities, we talk to
[7:32] our friends. But it's a it's a good
[7:34] reminder for all of us to be thinking
[7:36] about who is the next person after me,
[7:38] right? At least that's what I took away
[7:40] from from
[7:41] >> that. Yeah. And that interesting inner
[7:43] conflict on the one hand, I want people
[7:44] to leave me alone. I just don't want to
[7:46] be bothered. And then walking out and
[7:47] saying, "No one said hi to me." What we
[7:49] want, we don't want to be sold
[7:50] something. We don't want to be hustled,
[7:53] >> but we would like a genuine connection.
[7:55] Yeah, that's good.
[7:55] >> So, you know, we visited this one great
[7:57] church in another part of the country,
[7:59] and it really is a good church, vibrant.
[8:01] We walked in, the place is full of
[8:03] people, young families. There's music.
[8:04] It's a cool uh venue there in
[8:08] >> everybody's talking and chatting. We're
[8:10] obviously brand new people. We're we're
[8:12] not dressed like Flityians, and we're
[8:14] older than most of the people there, so
[8:16] it's pretty obvious. And they did the
[8:18] right thing. Someone held the door for
[8:20] us. Hi, glad you're here.
[8:22] >> Right. But it never felt real. And no
[8:25] one said a word to us. Even when they
[8:28] did the turn and greet your neighbor,
[8:30] >> we were in the middle of the room,
[8:31] literally the middle of the room. And
[8:33] everyone turned and greeted their
[8:34] neighbors, no one said one word to us.
[8:37] And at one point, I went to the
[8:38] information table to get something. And
[8:40] there was a host there.
[8:42] >> And I literally had to interrupt the
[8:44] host from talking to their friend say,
[8:46] "Can I have one of those? And is this
[8:48] how it works?" Obviously,
[8:49] >> you were giving all the giving all the
[8:51] clothes and so they greeted us from the
[8:54] front, but it just never felt authentic
[8:57] and real like you care about me.
[9:00] >> In in other words, if the process is
[9:02] there, but the heart behind it isn't for
[9:05] genuine belonging and and and feeling
[9:09] known, then it's it's just going to be a
[9:12] process. It's just going to be a
[9:14] product. Um, but real community is not
[9:16] something that can be sold, like you
[9:17] said. Yeah, that's good.
[9:18] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[9:19] >> Well, it's also a challenge because
[9:21] again, you have different personalities
[9:23] that are all coming through the door,
[9:24] right? For myself, when I walk in
[9:25] somewhere, I'll seek out a connection
[9:27] because that's who I am, but there are a
[9:29] lot of people who are wanting to be left
[9:31] alone. So, when you have a group that
[9:34] kind of already feels like they're just
[9:35] checking the boxes of saying hello, how
[9:38] do you find the the right way to
[9:39] authentically meet someone who, you
[9:41] know, is apprehensive about being there?
[9:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I think you have to set
[9:46] aside your own plans, interest, agenda.
[9:49] Who do I want to see today?
[9:51] >> And even passing judgment on that
[9:53] particular person and just say, I have a
[9:55] genuine interest in this human being
[9:59] >> by the grace and providence of God, they
[10:01] showed up here today,
[10:02] >> and
[10:04] >> I'd love to find out who they are and
[10:06] just let them know I'm glad they're here
[10:08] just as they are. If you can get your
[10:10] heart in that place,
[10:11] >> that's rather than an agenda. Yeah.
[10:14] >> Or whatever.
[10:15] >> I know you mentioned there's a couple
[10:17] other pillars. You like the number
[10:18] three. So the second one was when people
[10:21] show up, they're looking for guidance.
[10:23] Can you talk a little bit more about So
[10:25] you you've made it through that first
[10:26] hurdle, right? Maybe you you made them
[10:28] feel connected. You've gotten through
[10:29] that first step. How do you provide the
[10:32] right guidance to bring something to the
[10:35] to the next level for someone who is
[10:37] experiencing a church?
[10:38] >> Yeah. I think people when they do come
[10:39] to church, whether they're already
[10:41] believers or not, they are they know
[10:43] they're going to get a sermon. That's
[10:44] pretty much the standard thing. They're
[10:46] going to get a talk,
[10:47] >> but they come anyway because they're
[10:49] hoping maybe they'll hear something. And
[10:52] I settled on that word guidance because
[10:54] to me, they're not looking for a
[10:56] lecture. They're not looking for
[10:57] information. They're maybe not even
[10:59] looking for knowledge.
[11:00] >> What they're looking for is guidance.
[11:02] And guidance to me is both personal like
[11:05] a guide comes alongside you and helps
[11:07] you in particular get where you want to
[11:08] go
[11:09] >> and guidance is practical.
[11:12] >> Go here, stop this, try that, how about
[11:14] that rather than being a lot of abstract
[11:16] theological kinds of stuff.
[11:19] >> And so I think the teaching that comes
[11:22] has to have that personal practical
[11:25] sense of relevance and guidance for
[11:27] people.
[11:28] >> Yeah. for you when you're crafting a
[11:30] message, what is the challenge to
[11:32] finding a way to to to meet the one but
[11:35] also cater to an entire group,
[11:37] >> right? Uh, a couple things I do. One, I
[11:40] always I had a preaching professor once
[11:42] say, "Imagine someone standing up every
[11:44] two minutes in your sermon and saying,
[11:46] "So what?
[11:48] >> Just so what? Why did you just spend
[11:50] three minutes talking about this thing?
[11:52] What difference does that make to me?"
[11:53] Mhm.
[11:54] >> And then I also used to try to imagine
[11:56] my neighbors being in church. I would
[11:58] just think the people on my block, if
[12:00] they were sitting here today, and most
[12:01] of them were not churchgoers in our
[12:03] sense of the word, if they were sitting
[12:05] there, would they care? Would this be
[12:07] helpful? Would it make sense to them?
[12:08] The church crowd may be loving what I
[12:10] say, but what about the one who's not
[12:13] used to being in church?
[12:13] >> It's kind of like when you like have
[12:15] people over your house and you think
[12:17] like, "Oh yeah, this is clean." and then
[12:18] someone walks in, you're like, "Oh my
[12:20] gosh, I can't believe I didn't sweep
[12:21] that area or or repair that a long time
[12:24] ago or repaint that wall, you know?"
[12:25] Yeah.
[12:26] >> Exactly.
[12:26] >> The other thing that I find could be a
[12:29] challenge and would at least be
[12:30] interesting is, and this is sort of
[12:31] similar to the conversation of
[12:33] connection, but not everyone is going to
[12:35] overtly, you know, ask for guidance the
[12:38] same way they wouldn't overtly ask for a
[12:40] connection or being invited into
[12:42] something. So, what are the ways that
[12:44] you can provide guidance or or or you
[12:47] know, sort of find a way to connect with
[12:49] people, giving them guidance when they
[12:51] aren't maybe aware of how to ask for it.
[12:54] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I think as a as a teacher
[12:57] or a leader, you're always trying to
[13:00] imagine
[13:02] life from that person's perspective. So,
[13:05] not what do I think they should know or
[13:07] hear, but what might be going on in
[13:10] their lives that I can connect this to.
[13:13] >> Hey, you know, maybe this is your first
[13:15] time in church in a long time, or you
[13:16] know, it could be you just got some
[13:17] tough news from the doctor this week, or
[13:20] >> just take the time to imagine how this
[13:24] truth is going to fall on the ears of
[13:26] real everyday people, and that will
[13:28] usually help you get there.
[13:29] >> Yeah. Well, the last comment you had was
[13:32] about transcendence, and this one is
[13:34] more unique. Can you explain what
[13:36] transcendence is, maybe, you know, a
[13:38] time that you as a guest were able to
[13:40] experience it?
[13:41] >> Yeah, I think transcendence is the idea
[13:44] that deep down people do want to be life
[13:48] can be tedious. It can be hard. It can
[13:52] get even monotonous. To be lifted out of
[13:55] that and say, "Oh, this is what life is
[13:58] all about. this is why I'm here. This is
[14:01] my purpose. There's a bigger story going
[14:03] on that my job, my parenting, my
[14:07] whatever is a part of, there's a bigger,
[14:09] better story going on. So, um I think
[14:13] when we paint that picture for people of
[14:16] of a God who loves them, is at work in
[14:18] the world and doing good things in the
[14:19] world, and they have a part to play in
[14:21] that story,
[14:22] >> man, that that just kind of lifts them.
[14:26] >> Yeah. Have you ever been at a service
[14:28] where you had a moment where you were
[14:29] like, "Wow, they they nailed that,
[14:31] right?" Like something that, you know,
[14:32] even in your retirement, you're like,
[14:34] you know, I feel like they were, you
[14:35] know, something you could have learned
[14:36] from, right?
[14:37] >> Yes. Yes. I would say um well just
[14:41] recently in fact I went went to a church
[14:42] and April's been kind of a tough month
[14:44] for us
[14:45] >> uh coming back from being
[14:46] \[clears throat\] away with our grandkids
[14:48] for a couple of months you know back to
[14:50] >> home and jobs and shore and you know
[14:53] rainy weather in New England and we had
[14:55] a car accident on the way home so that
[14:57] was complicated and we were sore
[14:58] >> and we went to church u a church I
[15:01] hadn't been to in a while good church
[15:02] and it wasn't a spectacular service but
[15:04] it was very centered on Jesus and the
[15:08] teaching, the worship, the songs, we did
[15:10] communion. And by the time I walked out
[15:13] of there, I felt centered. I felt, oh
[15:17] yeah, this is who I am. This is who God
[15:19] is. This is what's going on in the
[15:20] world.
[15:22] >> Let's, you know, we can handle this. And
[15:24] it was very grounding, centering
[15:26] experience for me.
[15:27] >> And I think people like are seeking that
[15:29] out. A while ago, Akos um who does our
[15:32] high school ministry in Lexington,
[15:34] >> uh he gave this presentation about how
[15:36] people like are people seek out
[15:37] transcendence and he talked about um you
[15:40] know the Nicole Kidman is it AMC
[15:45] >> and like how um she does this, you know,
[15:48] we come to this place to to experience
[15:50] something that takes us away from our
[15:53] daily lives and how so many people were
[15:56] like drawn to that commercial. Um, and
[15:59] it's just like a commercial for like a
[16:02] movie theaters essentially. Yeah.
[16:04] >> But there's something that all of us
[16:05] want that takes us up and above the
[16:10] monotonous daily grind that all of us
[16:12] experience. Um, and we seek it out in a
[16:15] ton of different ways, but I I think
[16:17] you're 100% right and hit the nail on
[16:18] the head that when we come to church, we
[16:21] want to be grounded in the person of
[16:24] Jesus. And we want to know that all the
[16:27] tasks that we do, all of the monotony,
[16:30] there is something bigger than us at
[16:32] play, right? I absolutely
[16:34] >> I think I hope I'm phrasing that right.
[16:36] >> Yeah. No, I agree. I think in hearing
[16:38] your reference with the the AMC
[16:40] commercial, it also makes me think of a
[16:42] little while ago, um there was a trend
[16:44] on social media where people were
[16:46] posting um like nostalgia was kind of
[16:49] the theme, right? It was an old Google
[16:51] Doll song and it was showing photos of
[16:53] what things used to look like back in
[16:55] the '9s, right?
[16:56] >> And so many people latched on to that
[17:00] and resonated with that because it is,
[17:02] you know, the song was better days,
[17:03] right? But when you think back to just
[17:05] times that were were meaningful to you
[17:07] and there's a reason why people are
[17:09] always loving to look back at old photos
[17:11] and loving to look back at old things
[17:12] and and clinging to nostalgia because
[17:14] again it it takes them to a place and it
[17:16] gives them a feeling right that they
[17:18] they don't maybe have right now but when
[17:20] you can provide that to someone you can
[17:21] give them that feeling when they come
[17:23] into a church or when they leave a
[17:24] service you're really doing something
[17:26] special.
[17:27] >> Yes. Yeah. I I was talking with a
[17:28] teenager recently uh who's been going to
[17:30] youth group at a church uh but her
[17:33] parents had not been going and didn't
[17:34] seem that interested. Um but at some
[17:36] point her father said, "Hey, I'm going
[17:37] to go with you this time." She said, you
[17:39] know, "Oh, why?" And he kind of said,
[17:41] >> "There's so much darkness and gloom in
[17:44] the world. I
[17:45] >> I'd like to see if there's something
[17:47] more positive out there and I'd like
[17:49] some hope."
[17:50] >> Now, he wasn't saying, "I want Jesus or
[17:52] the Bible."
[17:53] simply saying, "I want a bigger, better
[17:56] picture and story." And that was enough.
[17:58] I think people are looking for that. I
[18:00] often say what
[18:03] >> church ought to be offering people
[18:05] something they can't find anywhere else.
[18:07] You can find a lot of stuff a lot of
[18:09] places. You can find content and beauty
[18:11] and music and laughter and
[18:12] entertainment. You can find all of that,
[18:15] >> but what does church offer something
[18:17] they can't find anywhere else?
[18:18] >> That's good.
[18:19] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[18:19] >> Well, it's kind of like this, you know,
[18:21] recent movement of young people really
[18:24] seeking religion. Yes. And and when you
[18:27] know that that is going on, right, if if
[18:29] you're in the position of having the
[18:31] opportunity to try to to find those
[18:33] people, to bring those people in, what
[18:35] are the things that you have to think
[18:36] about, when you've got a group that's
[18:38] curious, how do you capitalize on that
[18:41] curiosity in the right way?
[18:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
[18:44] >> Yeah. All right. Well, let's talk a
[18:45] little bit about the practical
[18:46] application of this, right? because we
[18:48] are obviously members of a church. We
[18:50] are working here. We're supported by
[18:52] pastors. We're supported by volunteers.
[18:54] >> So all the things that you just talked
[18:56] about,
[18:56] >> what are things that a church staff can
[18:59] stop and say, "Okay, these are things
[19:00] that we should be focusing on. These are
[19:02] the things that we want to ensure we are
[19:05] doing for newcomers, for members of our
[19:07] church."
[19:07] >> Yeah. I think for for staff members and
[19:09] volunteer leaders, it's being very
[19:12] thoughtful and intentional
[19:14] >> about how you design a service or an
[19:17] event, the words and language that you
[19:20] use, the tone and posture you have when
[19:22] you're in front of a group of people.
[19:25] >> Bringing some creativity to what they
[19:27] do. So, it's not just same old same old
[19:29] what church always does or what
[19:32] >> I I like to surprise people. Oh, I I
[19:36] didn't know church could be fun or
[19:38] relevant or friendly or
[19:41] >> any I I know you could laugh at church,
[19:43] right?
[19:44] >> You want to surprise people. So, just
[19:45] that thoughtfulness, that creativity,
[19:47] that intentionality rather than just
[19:50] automatic pilot.
[19:51] >> Yeah. Um and I think just to piggyback
[19:53] off that, something that is in what
[19:55] you're saying is authenticity. Yeah. I
[19:57] heard um I was listening to this podcast
[19:59] um and it talked about that spiritual
[20:01] curiosity young people feel
[20:03] >> and young people are curious about
[20:06] church but they are so quick to sniff
[20:09] out when there's like a play that's just
[20:12] being ran from somewhere else that is
[20:13] just plugged in.
[20:14] >> Yeah.
[20:15] >> And so if they feel like there's like
[20:17] something that they are being plugged
[20:19] into that is just repurposed, they're
[20:22] easy to sniff that out. Yeah. And
[20:23] >> so I think that churches need to
[20:25] practice authenticity of like
[20:28] >> of of doing the the practical things
[20:30] that help all of us get get plugged in,
[20:33] >> but separating our brains to be present
[20:36] with the person and being our fullest
[20:38] self, right? I think that's what you
[20:40] were you were saying too.
[20:41] >> You know, there's this that they always
[20:43] say that uh that horses can smell fear,
[20:45] you know, \[laughter\] and I know that's
[20:46] true because I'm terrified of horses and
[20:48] and they abuse me horribly, so I stay
[20:50] away. I think human beings can can smell
[20:54] sincerity. Yeah.
[20:55] >> They can tell if you really like them
[20:58] and are present with them and glad to be
[21:01] there
[21:01] >> or if you're just going through emotions
[21:03] or have an agenda. Yep.
[21:04] >> They can sniff out the difference. So, I
[21:07] think searching our own hearts and being
[21:09] sure we're bringing that sincerity.
[21:10] >> That's good.
[21:11] >> Yeah.
[21:12] >> Dom, when you you work with young
[21:14] adults, do you feel like there's even
[21:16] maybe a greater challenge to find things
[21:18] that are new or surprising? um because
[21:21] they are so kind of just in tune to
[21:23] everything that's going on in the world
[21:24] in a different way. Like what what
[21:26] challenges do you face when you're
[21:27] trying to reach that group?
[21:28] >> Well, I like ironically I'm like a huge
[21:30] like process nerd. Like I love seeing
[21:33] what other churches do that work, the
[21:34] other organizations do that work. So I
[21:36] am like so quick to be like, "Oh, this
[21:38] works here. We're going to take it and
[21:39] we're going to plug it in." Right?
[21:40] >> So I was like kind of listening to that
[21:42] podcast being like, "Dang it, that's
[21:43] what I \[laughter\]
[21:44] um
[21:45] >> oops." But I I as I as I talk to young
[21:48] adults, and I'm sure both of you can
[21:49] relate to this, um because one, you are
[21:51] a young adult and you you you work with
[21:53] young adults. Um I I really do see that
[21:56] that they they want authenticity
[21:59] >> and they want um they want honesty. Like
[22:03] there's so many young people who want
[22:05] people to be bold um and and talk about
[22:09] that transcendence, but they don't want
[22:12] you to beat around the bush. They want
[22:13] you to be honest. um which is like
[22:16] different from me because I I you know
[22:19] grew up kind of wanting to always be
[22:22] very nice and and help people with their
[22:23] feelings. And so this is a a different
[22:26] um approach than I'm used to.
[22:28] >> Yeah.
[22:29] >> And I think that honesty has to do not
[22:31] only with your persona and how you
[22:33] relate to people, but if you're a
[22:35] teacher, your content. Yes.
[22:37] >> That you're offering honest content
[22:41] >> that acknowledges problems.
[22:43] >> Yep. struggles, questions that are hard
[22:45] to answer. I'm afraid a lot of teaching
[22:48] I hear in churches, I'm afraid to say,
[22:50] is superficial, shallow. It avoids the
[22:53] hard questions. It gives cliches and pat
[22:56] answers that if you're a Christian, you
[22:58] nod your head and say, "Amen." But the
[23:00] average person's saying, "That's not how
[23:02] the world works. It doesn't help me. It
[23:03] doesn't help me." And so,
[23:06] >> being willing to ask hard questions and
[23:08] dig deep and leave a little bit of
[23:09] mystery and unresolved things,
[23:12] >> that's important.
[23:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. The last one that I'll ask,
[23:14] and I just think this is interesting. It
[23:16] kind of stuck out to me when you were
[23:17] talking about the church that you
[23:18] visited in Florida and how you guys were
[23:21] maybe older than most of the people that
[23:23] were there. What are the challenges when
[23:25] you are dealing with a congregation that
[23:28] has such a wide variety where you've got
[23:30] young people, young adults, young
[23:32] families, but then you have people who
[23:33] have been coming for a very long time
[23:35] who are older and you're dealing with so
[23:37] many different phases of life.
[23:38] >> Right. Right. Yeah. It is a challenge,
[23:41] but it's also one of the beauties of
[23:43] church. Yeah.
[23:44] >> And one of the things that maybe people
[23:46] can't find other places in their world.
[23:48] We tend to be with people in our own
[23:50] demographic. And a good healthy church
[23:52] brings people together
[23:53] intergenerationally
[23:55] and culturally and politically. So
[23:58] that's the beauty of church, but it does
[24:00] make it challenging.
[24:02] >> So I \[clears throat\] think part of the
[24:03] key is bringing your own sense of
[24:05] curiosity, right,
[24:07] >> and humility to the experiences. I'm not
[24:09] here just to get what I want and find my
[24:13] people. But I might be surprised today
[24:15] by somebody I meet, a conversation I
[24:18] have that I can't find anywhere else in
[24:20] my world.
[24:21] >> Yeah,
[24:21] >> that's good.
[24:22] >> So the thing is, right, ultimately
[24:24] coming to church, that's why it matters
[24:25] because you you don't know on any given
[24:28] Sunday exactly what you're going to get
[24:30] when you walk through that.
[24:31] >> Man, if you if a church can create that,
[24:32] gee, I wonder what's going to happen
[24:34] today, they'll show up every week.
[24:36] >> Yeah. Yep. That's good. Brian, thank you
[24:38] so much for joining us, for being here,
[24:40] for sharing your experiences as a
[24:42] pastor, as a retired pastor, as a
[24:45] Christian, as a person. This is so
[24:47] interesting. I know that we learned a
[24:48] lot the first time we heard you speak,
[24:50] and even more so hearing all of this
[24:52] today. So, we really want to thank you
[24:53] for being part of our podcast.
[24:54] >> I love being part of it. I've been
[24:56] enjoying the podcast. Glad you guys are
[24:57] doing it, and
[24:59] >> it's it's a wonderful season in our
[25:00] lives. We're super grateful for it and
[25:02] grateful to stay connected to Grace
[25:04] here. So,
[25:04] >> awesome. Well, you're going to have to
[25:05] come back. We'll bring you back. There's
[25:07] no question \[laughter\] you will make a
[25:08] second guest appearance. But that does
[25:10] it for this episode of Grace Out Loud.
[25:11] Thank you guys all for watching and we
[25:13] will see you all next time.
[25:17] >> \[music\]

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