# Why Rome Hated Carthage

An episode of [Human History ASMR](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6793196842), 6 Oct 2026, 53 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/75560588/why_rome_hated_carthage_human_voiced_no_ads.mp3

Journey into the ancient Mediterranean and discover why Rome and Carthage became bitter rivals whose struggle for power shaped the course of Western history. This episode explores the political ambitions, economic competition, military conflicts, cultural differences, and historical events that transformed two powerful civilizations into deadly enemies. Explore the origins of Carthage, the great Phoenician-founded city that grew into a wealthy maritime and commercial power across the western Mediterranean. Discover how Carthaginian trade networks, naval strength, colonies, and influence brought the city into increasing competition with the expanding Roman Republic. Follow the events that led to the Punic Wars, beginning with the struggle over Sicily. Examine how Rome and Carthage competed for territory, alliances, resources, and strategic influence, and how their rivalry eventually developed into some of the most destructive conflicts of the ancient world. Meet the commanders and statesmen who defined this struggle, including Hannibal Barca, whose invasion of Italy brought Rome to the edge of disaster. Explore his famous crossing of the Alps, the battles of Trebia, Lake Trasimene, and Cannae, and the remarkable Roman strategy that eventually turned the war against Carthage. But why did the conflict become so bitter? Examine Roman fears of Carthaginian power, memories of earlier wars, political rhetoric, economic interests, and the changing balance of power in the Mediterranean. Explore the famous Roman phrase associated with Cato the Elder and consider how political hostility toward Carthage developed in the final decades of the Republic. The story reaches its devastating conclusion with the Third Punic War and the destruction of Carthage in 146 BC. Explore the siege, the fall of the city, and the fate of its inhabitants while examining the political circumstances behind Rome's decision to eliminate its former rival. Drawing on ancient Roman and Carthaginian evidence, historical accounts, archaeology, inscriptions, and modern scholarship, this episode separates historical reality from later Roman narratives and examines whether Rome truly "hated" Carthage—or whether fear, ambition, competition, and political calculation better explain their centuries-long conflict. Narrated with a calm, human voice, this immersive journey is perfect for history enthusiasts, ancient history lovers, military history fans, Roman and Carthaginian history audiences, documentary listeners, relaxation, or listening before sleep. Enter the world of Rome and Carthage and discover the rivalry that transformed the ancient Mediterranean forever.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Carthago, Delenda, Est. Carthage must be destroyed. Those famous words
[0:08] Speaker 1: attributed to the Roman statesman Cato the Elder, they echo
[0:12] Speaker 1: the intensity of Rome's fear and hatred of their ancient
[0:16] Speaker 1: rival Carthage. According to one story, Cato would dramatically drop
[0:22] Speaker 1: a fresh fig in the Senate, one he claimed was
[0:26] Speaker 1: plucked in Carthage just days before, to illustrate how near
[0:31] Speaker 1: and prosperous their rival was. No matter the topic, he
[0:36] Speaker 1: ended every speech with that ominous refrain, Carthago delenda est.
[0:42] Speaker 1: So imagine the scene, a venerable senator, voice hardened by
[0:48] Speaker 1: the years, by the wars, urging all of his peers
[0:52] Speaker 1: that Rome would never be safe until Carthage lay in ashes.
[0:58] Speaker 1: How did it come to this? How did two great cities,
[1:03] Speaker 1: once distant trading partners, become such bitter enemies that one
[1:09] Speaker 1: demanded nothing less than the complete annihilation of the other? Today,
[1:16] Speaker 1: we'll find out. With that simple question, why did the
[1:21] Speaker 1: Romans hate Carthage so much? We'll go through the history
[1:28] Speaker 1: of the fierce rivalry, the brutal wars, and the personal vendettas,
[1:33] Speaker 1: but also the economic competition between a rising agrarian republic
[1:38] Speaker 1: and a wealthy mercantile empire, and the cultural differences, too,
[1:44] Speaker 1: from language to religion that ultimately bred distrust and disgust.
[1:51] Speaker 1: We'll see how the propaganda and legend on both sides
[1:55] Speaker 1: fueled fear from Roman tales of Carthaginian cruelty, to Carthaginian
[2:00] Speaker 1: tales of Roman perfidy. And along the way we're going
[2:05] Speaker 1: to hear some voices of the ancient observers, Roman historians
[2:09] Speaker 1: like Livy and Polybius, the stateman Cicero, the biographer Plutarch,
[2:15] Speaker 1: and even some echoes of Carthaginian perspectives, recorded or perhaps
[2:21] Speaker 1: imagined by these same Romans and Greeks. Well, our goal
[2:27] Speaker 1: is critical. It's a balanced analysis. Not to take Rome's
[2:33] Speaker 1: side or Carthage's side, but just to understand the deep
[2:36] Speaker 1: causes of this hatred. And by the end, we'll not
[2:40] Speaker 1: only grasp why Rome so vehemently hated Carthage, but we'll
[2:45] Speaker 1: also appreciate the tragic intensity of the rivalry that shaped
[2:50] Speaker 1: the ancient world. But first I better say hello. Welcome
[2:56] Speaker 1: to the channel to any newcomers. If you enjoy this
[3:00] Speaker 1: kind of content, give it a subscribe and like and
[3:03] Speaker 1: you'll get more of it. Tell me where you're listening
[3:06] Speaker 1: from in the comments and what time it is over there. Also,
[3:12] Speaker 1: thank you to the patrons and those who checked out
[3:14] Speaker 1: the merchandise store. Well, now let's get started. At the
[3:22] Speaker 1: heart of the Roman hate for Carthage was effectively a
[3:26] Speaker 1: military rivalry and the trauma of war The two powers
[3:30] Speaker 1: fought three Punic Wars, you see, as from 264 to
[3:34] Speaker 1: 146 BCE, the decided mastery of the Western Mediterranean. Especially
[3:41] Speaker 1: the Second Punic War, between 218 and 201, the epic
[3:45] Speaker 1: conflict where Hannibal personally led war elephants over the Alps
[3:51] Speaker 1: and terrorized Italy, left a nightmarish scar on Roman psyche
[3:57] Speaker 1: and their pride. No other war had ever so terrified
[4:01] Speaker 1: them at their own gates as the Punic Wars did,
[4:05] Speaker 1: writes historian Apian. He recounts how, after Carthage's final defeat,
[4:11] Speaker 1: Romans reminisced with awe and relief about the tragedy that
[4:16] Speaker 1: they had survived. You see, Hannibal, Rome had never faced
[4:21] Speaker 1: an enemy like him before. He ravaged Italy for sixteen years.
[4:27] Speaker 1: He destroyed four hundred towns. He killed 300,000 of their
[4:32] Speaker 1: men in battles alone, more than once marching up to
[4:37] Speaker 1: the city and putting it in extreme peril. This near-death
[4:42] Speaker 1: experience for the Roman Republic bred an abiding fear and resentment.
[4:47] Speaker 1: Generations later, Roman mothers still warned their misbehaving children with
[4:53] Speaker 1: the phrase, Hannibal ad portas, Hannibal is at the gates.
[4:59] Speaker 1: a boogeyman, to frighten them into good behaviour. The very
[5:04] Speaker 1: name Hannibal thus became synonymous with dread. But you see,
[5:12] Speaker 1: the rivalry had begun much earlier than that. In the
[5:18] Speaker 1: First Punic War, 264 to 44 BCE, Rome and Carthage
[5:23] Speaker 1: clashed over Sicily. A pivotal moment. as an upstart, Rome
[5:28] Speaker 1: built a navy from scratch to challenge Carthage's maritime supremacy. Carthage,
[5:34] Speaker 1: founded by Phoenician traders, had long dominated sea routes and
[5:39] Speaker 1: owned a wealthy empire of ports and colonies. Rome was
[5:44] Speaker 1: lagging a little bit behind. Don't always think of it
[5:47] Speaker 1: as an empire. We're even in Republic days now. It
[5:52] Speaker 1: is not the power that it would become at this time.
[5:58] Speaker 1: Rome's victory in the First Punic War sent a shockwave
[6:02] Speaker 1: through Carthage, and they imposed harsh terms. Carthage lost Sicily.
[6:08] Speaker 1: They had to pay hefty war indemnities, and soon after
[6:12] Speaker 1: were strong-armed into ceding Sardinia as well. Polybius, a Greek
[6:18] Speaker 1: historian close to Roman circles, notes that the seething anger
[6:23] Speaker 1: this bred on Carthage Hamilcar Barca, the leading Carthaginian general
[6:30] Speaker 1: and the father of Hannibal, by the way, according to Polybius,
[6:35] Speaker 1: felt the cession of Sicily had been made hastily in
[6:38] Speaker 1: despair and that Sardinia had been filched by the Romans
[6:43] Speaker 1: with an indemnity imposed as well. Smarting under what they
[6:49] Speaker 1: saw as Roman treachery and bullying, Hamilcar and his faction
[6:53] Speaker 1: prepared for their revenge Indeed, Polybius lists Rome's grab of
[6:59] Speaker 1: Sardinia as the second and principal cause of the next war,
[7:04] Speaker 1: adding that Hamilcar's old indignation was such that he immediately
[7:09] Speaker 1: set about building Carthaginian power in Spain for a war
[7:13] Speaker 1: against Rome again. Don't you think it's pretty telling that
[7:19] Speaker 1: Carthaginians themselves had grown to hate and distrust Rome by
[7:22] Speaker 1: this point, and they passed that hatred, the next generation.
[7:29] Speaker 1: Polybius preserves a pretty remarkable anecdote. Hannibal, as a nine-year-old boy,
[7:35] Speaker 1: had begged his father, Hamilcar, to take him along to
[7:38] Speaker 1: Spain on campaign. Well, it must have worked, because Hamilcar agreed,
[7:45] Speaker 1: but first took him by the hand, led him up
[7:48] Speaker 1: to the altar, and paid him lay his hand on
[7:51] Speaker 1: the sacrificial victim. and swear never to be the friend
[7:56] Speaker 1: of the Romans. From that young age, Hannibal swore eternal
[8:01] Speaker 1: hatred upon Rome. This legendary Hannibalic oath, whether or not
[8:08] Speaker 1: it truly happened, or perhaps it happened a little bit
[8:11] Speaker 1: different to as was told, is a powerful illustration of
[8:15] Speaker 1: the mutual hatred. Romans later loved to imagine that Hannibal
[8:21] Speaker 1: was driven by undying hatred, just as they themselves came
[8:24] Speaker 1: to hate him. In Livy's account, Hannibal indeed seems the
[8:30] Speaker 1: embodiment of all that Rome loathed. Livy describes the famous
[8:35] Speaker 1: general as a man of extreme contrasts. He was brilliant
[8:40] Speaker 1: in leadership, sure, yet, according to Livy, he was utterly immoral,
[8:47] Speaker 1: with the great merits matched by great vices, inhuman cruelty.
[8:53] Speaker 1: perfidity worse than punic, an utter absence of truthfulness and
[8:58] Speaker 1: respect for oaths. Now, this phrase, perfidity worse than punic,
[9:03] Speaker 1: is striking. Punic meaning Carthaginian. That treachery had become proverbial
[9:11] Speaker 1: to the Romans. For Livy, Hannibal's cunning and trickery in war,
[9:16] Speaker 1: like his ambushes and deceptive tactics, exemplified a stereotypical Carthaginian
[9:21] Speaker 1: lack of honour. Of course, it's completely fine when the
[9:24] Speaker 1: Romans do it, but the Romans aren't going to criticize themselves,
[9:28] Speaker 1: aren't they? We should not need to remind the listener
[9:33] Speaker 1: that as we go through some of the Roman sources,
[9:36] Speaker 1: they are certainly a little bit biased. So we have
[9:40] Speaker 1: to tread carefully not to take it as gospel that
[9:44] Speaker 1: Hannibal was indeed this cunning and treacherous person that the
[9:48] Speaker 1: Romans are describing. Take it all in our stride. I
[9:53] Speaker 1: won't remind you again. So from the Roman perspective, Hannibal
[9:58] Speaker 1: nearly destroyed them. And such an existential threat forged deep hatred.
[10:06] Speaker 1: Hannibal was a Carthaginian. Carthaginians almost destroyed us. Therefore, Carthaginians
[10:14] Speaker 1: are bad people. The devastation that he wrought, culminating in
[10:19] Speaker 1: the catastrophic Roman defeat at Cannae in 216 BC, where
[10:25] Speaker 1: some 50,000 to 70,000 Romans fell in a single day,
[10:29] Speaker 1: that was very hard to get out of Rome's memory.
[10:31] Speaker 1: They weren't forgetting that one for a while. So it
[10:35] Speaker 1: wasn't just a rivalry of states. It became a personal
[10:38] Speaker 1: and generational hatred, part of the identity of both cultures.
[10:46] Speaker 1: Roman leaders had scores to settle. Many aristocratic families had
[10:50] Speaker 1: lost sons at Cannae and other battles. Scipio Africanus, the
[10:55] Speaker 1: Roman general who ultimately defeated Hannibal at Zama in 202 BC,
[10:59] Speaker 1: had his own personal stake. You see, his father and
[11:04] Speaker 1: his uncle had died fighting Carthaginians in Spain. So you
[11:09] Speaker 1: can imagine the emotional weight behind Rome's resolve to never
[11:14] Speaker 1: allow such a threat again. Even long after Hannibal was gone,
[11:20] Speaker 1: the Romans remained intensely weary. Fifty years of peace followed
[11:25] Speaker 1: the Second Punic War, but Carthage, though politically humbled, economically
[11:31] Speaker 1: recovered quite impressively. By the mid-second century BC, Carthage was
[11:37] Speaker 1: a prosperous city once more. A little bit too prosperous,
[11:43] Speaker 1: if you ask Rome about it. When a Roman delegation
[11:47] Speaker 1: visited Carthage around 157 to arbitrate a dispute, they were shocked.
[11:56] Speaker 1: Abian relates, The envoy saw how diligently the land was
[12:00] Speaker 1: cultivated and what great estates Carthage possessed, noting that the
[12:06] Speaker 1: city had increased wealth and population since its defeat. They
[12:12] Speaker 1: were thinking they would show up to a somewhat repaired ruin,
[12:17] Speaker 1: filled with problems. The civilized Romans are walking in. They
[12:22] Speaker 1: thought maybe they'd clean the place up a little bit,
[12:24] Speaker 1: make it look somewhat respectable, but limitations would apply. Instead,
[12:30] Speaker 1: they saw something that was better than what they had
[12:33] Speaker 1: at home. And they can't have that, can't they? This
[12:38] Speaker 1: whole situation set off alarm bells. Senators returned home, reporting
[12:43] Speaker 1: that Garthage though no military threat at the moment, was
[12:47] Speaker 1: an object of apprehension rather than of jealousy, the city
[12:51] Speaker 1: being so ill-affected, so near and growing so rapidly. Cato
[12:57] Speaker 1: the Elder especially took this to heart. He was not
[13:00] Speaker 1: happy to hear this news. Apian reports that Cato warned
[13:05] Speaker 1: his fellow senators that Rome's very survival was at stake,
[13:09] Speaker 1: stating in the Senate,' The liberty of Rome will never
[13:13] Speaker 1: be secure,' until Carthage is destroyed. It was this fear,
[13:18] Speaker 1: given voice by Cato, that helped push Rome towards the
[13:23] Speaker 1: Third Punic War, which was essentially a war of extermination.
[13:30] Speaker 1: Decades of fierce military rival, marked by enormous losses and
[13:35] Speaker 1: close brushes with disaster, that's what made the Romans hate
[13:40] Speaker 1: Carthage in a way that they hated no other enemy.
[13:44] Speaker 1: not even the Gauls, not even the Germans. As Abian emphasizes,
[13:51] Speaker 1: the Roman people felt delivered from some great fear when
[13:55] Speaker 1: Carthage finally fell. They had fought other wars, mainly against Macedonians, Greeks,
[14:03] Speaker 1: and others, but no other war so threatened their city
[14:07] Speaker 1: as did the one of the Punic Wars. The Romans
[14:11] Speaker 1: are traditionally stern and stoic people, actually wept for joy
[14:15] Speaker 1: on the day that Carthage was destroyed, hardly believing that
[14:20] Speaker 1: the monster was gone and the nightmare was over. A
[14:24] Speaker 1: foe who inspires that level of terror will also inspire
[14:28] Speaker 1: enduring hatred. Economic Competition and Ambition Beyond the battlefields, Economic
[14:41] Speaker 1: and imperial competition fed all this animosity. You see, Carthage
[14:46] Speaker 1: was a wealthy maritime empire, and it had vast trading networks.
[14:52] Speaker 1: But Rome, initially a regional land power, hungered for expansion
[14:57] Speaker 1: and resources. They just didn't quite know where to start.
[15:03] Speaker 1: Their spheres eventually began to overlap, especially in places like Sicily,
[15:09] Speaker 1: Sardinia and Spain. bringing them into conflict, as each vied
[15:14] Speaker 1: for influence and wealth. Carthage's prosperity was something of legend.
[15:20] Speaker 1: Situated in North Africa with a superb harbour, Carthage controlled
[15:25] Speaker 1: trade in precious metals, agricultural goods, and luxury items across
[15:29] Speaker 1: the western Mediterranean. They had colonies in client cities from
[15:34] Speaker 1: North Africa to southern Spain, western Sicily to Sardinia and Corsica.
[15:40] Speaker 1: They were doing very well, and this inevitably collided with
[15:45] Speaker 1: Rome's expansionist goals. Sicily would end up being the flashpoint,
[15:51] Speaker 1: a wealthy granary and strategic naval crossroads. When Rome muscled
[15:56] Speaker 1: itself into Sicily during the First Punic War, it was
[15:59] Speaker 1: partly to prevent the Carthaginian dominance from hemming it in
[16:03] Speaker 1: the young Roman Republic. Economic motives intermingled with strategic ones.
[16:09] Speaker 1: It always comes down to money in one way or another.
[16:12] Speaker 1: Controlling Sicily meant grain supply. Controlling Sicily meant trade routes.
[16:19] Speaker 1: And neither power wanted the other one to monopolize any
[16:22] Speaker 1: of them. After Rome wrested Sicily and Sardinia away, Carthage
[16:27] Speaker 1: focused on expanding in Spain, at that time called Iberia.
[16:33] Speaker 1: This was hopefully going to compensate for some of the losses.
[16:38] Speaker 1: Spain offered silver mines and a little bit of manpower,
[16:42] Speaker 1: assets that Carthage could use to rebuild their power and
[16:47] Speaker 1: pay their war indemnities. The Romans watched wearily as Hamilcar
[16:53] Speaker 1: Barca and then his sons established a quasi-kingdom in Spain.
[16:59] Speaker 1: Tensions rose when Rome made a treaty setting the Ebro
[17:03] Speaker 1: River as the boundary of Carthaginian influence. But Hannibal's attack
[17:09] Speaker 1: on Saguntum, a Spanish city allied to Rome in 219,
[17:14] Speaker 1: shattered that arrangement, and the Second Punic War was well
[17:19] Speaker 1: and truly on. To the Romans, this all looked like
[17:24] Speaker 1: Carthage trying to dominate the Western Mediterranean economically, and breaking
[17:28] Speaker 1: the agreements to do so. Hannibal's campaign in Italy can
[17:34] Speaker 1: even be seen through a strictly economic lens. He aimed
[17:37] Speaker 1: to break Rome's network of Italian alliances, which was the
[17:41] Speaker 1: source of Roman manpower and grain. At one point, Hannibal
[17:45] Speaker 1: even tried to incite revolts among Rome's client states, effectively
[17:49] Speaker 1: attempting to undermine Rome's economy base in Italy. Conversely, to
[17:55] Speaker 1: the Carthaginians, Rome's actions felt aggressively expansionist. You see, Roman politicians...
[18:03] Speaker 1: were often quite blunt about wanting to eliminate Carthaginian competition,
[18:09] Speaker 1: often saying the quiet part out loud. Cato, his demonstration
[18:15] Speaker 1: with the fig in the Senate, was fundamentally an economic warning.
[18:19] Speaker 1: He had quoted,' See this splendid African fig. Such bounty
[18:27] Speaker 1: comes from Carthage's rich land, only three days from our shores.'
[18:32] Speaker 1: This implies that Carthage's wealth and proximity made it a
[18:36] Speaker 1: dangerous rival. Roman aristocrats coveted Carthage's territories too. After the
[18:43] Speaker 1: Second Punic War, Carthage had been forced to cede its
[18:46] Speaker 1: holdings in Spain to Rome, giving Rome access to fabulous
[18:50] Speaker 1: silver mines in Baetica, which is Andalusia in modern-day terms.
[18:56] Speaker 1: With Carthage subdued, Rome rapidly expanded its own trade and influence.
[19:02] Speaker 1: But when Carthage rebounded commercially by the mid-second century, Roman
[19:07] Speaker 1: merchants and senators began to grow a little anxious. The
[19:12] Speaker 1: Third Punic War was triggered by a Carthaginian breach of
[19:16] Speaker 1: the treaty, defending itself against Numidian aggression. But many modern
[19:22] Speaker 1: historians note underlying greed and fear of competition as motives,
[19:26] Speaker 1: and it seems pretty obvious that that was certainly part
[19:30] Speaker 1: of the make-up Carthage's lands were fertile, and its city
[19:35] Speaker 1: was rich, sure. When Carthage finally fell, the amount of
[19:39] Speaker 1: booty and valuable goods impressed even the conquerors. Scipio Aemilianus,
[19:45] Speaker 1: the Roman general in 146 BC, distributed plunder. and sent
[19:50] Speaker 1: tons of captured goods back to Rome. The Romans even
[19:54] Speaker 1: allowed other cities like Utica to seize former Carthaginian lands
[19:59] Speaker 1: as a reward. Clearly, destroying Carthage opened opportunities for Roman
[20:05] Speaker 1: economic gains, and that was a fact certainly not lost
[20:09] Speaker 1: on Roman decision-makers. So, commercial rivalry, that's what really fanned
[20:17] Speaker 1: the flames. Each side accused the other of bad faith
[20:22] Speaker 1: in treaties and trade, always a pointed finger. Polybius notes
[20:29] Speaker 1: that after the First Punic War, Rome's seizure of Sardinia,
[20:34] Speaker 1: taking advantage of Carthage's internal troubles, was seen by the
[20:38] Speaker 1: Carthaginians as an outright act of banditry. You see, they'd
[20:43] Speaker 1: already paid for peace. But by the time they'd paid,
[20:47] Speaker 1: Rome extorted them for more. The Carthaginians felt cheated. Romans
[20:54] Speaker 1: felt justified by a might-makes-right ideology and the need to
[20:59] Speaker 1: preempt a resurgent foe. This cycle of mutual distrust over
[21:05] Speaker 1: territory and resources ensured that even in peacetime the two
[21:09] Speaker 1: states viewed each other with the utmost suspicion. Carthage blocked
[21:14] Speaker 1: Roman expansion into Spain until war broke out. Rome blocked
[21:19] Speaker 1: Carthaginian expansion in Africa by allying with Numidian kings, who
[21:23] Speaker 1: nibbled away at Carthage's borders. By the time of the
[21:27] Speaker 1: Third Punic War, the Carthaginians, had reasons to believe that
[21:32] Speaker 1: Romans just wanted to eliminate them completely and steal all
[21:36] Speaker 1: of their wealth. And essentially, they were correct. The Romans
[21:42] Speaker 1: weren't even trying to hide it anymore. Meanwhile, the Romans
[21:46] Speaker 1: convinced themselves that any economic revival of Carthage would translate
[21:51] Speaker 1: into a military threat down the line. In short, the
[21:56] Speaker 1: conflict was as much about clashing interests and imperialism about
[22:00] Speaker 1: clashing swords. Later it was fuelled by competition for dominance
[22:05] Speaker 1: of the Mediterranean world. Propaganda and Cultural Clashes Differences in
[22:17] Speaker 1: culture and values between the Romans and Carthaginians also created
[22:21] Speaker 1: their share of animosity, which each side's propaganda equally amplified.
[22:30] Speaker 1: The Romans and their allies, like the Greeks, often painted
[22:33] Speaker 1: Carthage as an alien, barbaric society, wealthy and sophisticated in
[22:39] Speaker 1: some ways, but fundamentally untrustworthy and immoral by the Greco-Roman standard.
[22:46] Speaker 1: The Carthaginians, in turn, likely saw the Romans as upstart,
[22:50] Speaker 1: brutal conquerors, who didn't respect treaties or other cultures. One
[22:56] Speaker 1: major cultural difference lay in language and ethnicity. You see,
[23:00] Speaker 1: Rome was Latin-speaking, an Indo-European society with heavy Greek influence,
[23:07] Speaker 1: whereas Carthage was a Phoenician city-state speaking a Semitic language
[23:12] Speaker 1: and preserving Phoenician customs. To many Greeks and Romans, the
[23:17] Speaker 1: Carthaginians seemed almost Oriental or foreign. Their reputation for crafty
[23:23] Speaker 1: strategic trading led to stereotypes of greed and trickery. In fact,
[23:28] Speaker 1: we have a Latin phrase called punica fides, punic faith,
[23:33] Speaker 1: abiding oxymoron, meaning treachery. The idea was that Carthaginians could
[23:40] Speaker 1: not be trusted in any capacity to keep their word
[23:43] Speaker 1: about anything. This stereotype likely stemmed from incidents like broken treaties,
[23:49] Speaker 1: real or perceived. For example, when Hannibal attacked Secundum, Romans
[23:55] Speaker 1: saw it as perfidy against a treaty. reinforcing that belief
[24:00] Speaker 1: that Carthaginians would just say one thing and do another.
[24:04] Speaker 1: Livy's comment about Hannibal's utter absence of truthfulness and perfidity
[24:11] Speaker 1: worse than Punic exemplifies that hostile view. And then there
[24:17] Speaker 1: was religion, which, well, that always seems to cause some
[24:22] Speaker 1: deep divides. Carthage's religious practices frankly horrified the Greco-Roman world,
[24:29] Speaker 1: They worshipped deities like Balhamon, whom the Greeks and Romans
[24:33] Speaker 1: identified with Cronos or Saturn, and also Tanit. The ancient
[24:39] Speaker 1: sources accuse them of practising child sacrifice in times of crisis.
[24:45] Speaker 1: Whether this was routine or exaggerated propaganda is debated by
[24:49] Speaker 1: modern historians, but Roman and Greek writers leave little doubt
[24:54] Speaker 1: of what the people believed about Carthaginian religion. They'd made
[24:58] Speaker 1: up their minds. weren't going to change them. The Greek
[25:02] Speaker 1: historian Diodorus Sicilus, for instance, relates that during a dire
[25:06] Speaker 1: war in the 4th century BC, the Carthaginians sacrificed the
[25:11] Speaker 1: noblest of children to appease Cronos, placing infants onto the
[25:17] Speaker 1: outstretched arms of a bronze idol such that each of
[25:21] Speaker 1: the children, when placed thereon, rolled down and fell into
[25:24] Speaker 1: a sort of gaping pit filled with fire. These, frankly,
[25:31] Speaker 1: horrifying tales. Children tumbling down into the flames. Of course,
[25:36] Speaker 1: they circulated widely. False news travels fast. Well, that's if
[25:42] Speaker 1: the Romans were lying, but I'm sure that they were
[25:43] Speaker 1: exaggerating a little bit. But who knows? The ancient world
[25:48] Speaker 1: is a scary place. Diodorus says that this aroused even
[25:52] Speaker 1: the pity of the enemy, implying that Carthage's foes— in this case,
[25:57] Speaker 1: presumably Greeks or Romans— were shocked by the practice deeply.
[26:03] Speaker 1: Anavisor's Quintus Curtius notes that Carthaginians inherited this ritual from
[26:09] Speaker 1: their founders and are said to have continued the practice
[26:13] Speaker 1: right down to the time of their city's destruction. Roman
[26:17] Speaker 1: writers use such accounts as moral justifications for war. How
[26:21] Speaker 1: could a civilization that allegedly burned its own children be
[26:25] Speaker 1: allowed to survive? It's time for the Romans to take
[26:30] Speaker 1: out the trash. But whether or not all Carthaginians condoned
[26:35] Speaker 1: these sacrifices in fact Carthage did in fact ban the
[26:40] Speaker 1: practice at certain points according to some sources the image stuck.
[26:47] Speaker 1: Roman propaganda in the lead up to the Third Punic
[26:50] Speaker 1: War likely played on this theme of Carthaginian cruelty and
[26:54] Speaker 1: impiety by painting Carthage as a monstrous impious nation the
[26:59] Speaker 1: Roman leaders could rally popular support. We see a similar
[27:03] Speaker 1: dynamic with the story of Marcus Attilius Regulus, a Roman
[27:07] Speaker 1: general captured in the First Punic War. According to legend,
[27:12] Speaker 1: repeated by Roman authors as a tale of a virtuous martyrdom,
[27:18] Speaker 1: Regulus was sent to Rome by the Carthaginians to negotiate
[27:22] Speaker 1: a prisoner exchange and an oath to return if the
[27:26] Speaker 1: mission failed. When he reached Rome, Regulus advised the Senate
[27:31] Speaker 1: not to agree to the exchange, knowing it sealed his
[27:34] Speaker 1: own doom. And then, dutifully, he returned to Carthage to
[27:40] Speaker 1: face the consequences. The Carthaginians, so the story goes, tortured
[27:47] Speaker 1: him to death in hideous ways. Accounts speak of cutting
[27:51] Speaker 1: off his eyelids and forcing him into a barrel of
[27:55] Speaker 1: spikes or simply of enforced wakefulness. Cicero praises Regulus's honour
[28:02] Speaker 1: in the work De Officius, noting that Regulus, I quote,
[28:07] Speaker 1: was not ignorant of the fact that he was going
[28:10] Speaker 1: to a most cruel enemy and exquisite torture. Still, he
[28:15] Speaker 1: thought that his oath must be kept, and so he went,
[28:20] Speaker 1: and was like that, slowly but death. Now, did you
[28:25] Speaker 1: catch it? That phrase, most cruel enemy, is telling. The
[28:30] Speaker 1: Romans' brand at Carthage is exceptionally cruel and barbaric beyond
[28:35] Speaker 1: the norms of warfare. Whether the torture tale is true
[28:40] Speaker 1: or perhaps embellished, it became a part of the Roman
[28:43] Speaker 1: cultural memory. It taught Romans two things, the supreme virtue
[28:48] Speaker 1: of Roman honour and the extreme barbarity of the Carthaginians.
[28:54] Speaker 1: Who would barbarically torture such a noble captive? Only them,
[28:58] Speaker 1: of course. All these stories, told and retold, just fanned
[29:04] Speaker 1: the flames of that hatred. But from the Carthaginian side,
[29:09] Speaker 1: we unfortunately have fewer direct records, probably because the Romans
[29:13] Speaker 1: just burned the entire city. But we can infer some
[29:17] Speaker 1: perspectives through the accounts of Roman historians, believe it or not.
[29:23] Speaker 1: You see, Carthaginians often felt betrayed by Roman double-dealing. A
[29:29] Speaker 1: poignant example is the prelude to the Third Punic War. Carthage,
[29:33] Speaker 1: after fifty long years of obeying Roman's dictates, found itself
[29:39] Speaker 1: backed into a corner. In 149, when Rome prepared to attack,
[29:45] Speaker 1: Carthaginian envoys desperately tried to negotiate with them. Now the
[29:51] Speaker 1: Romans made extreme demands. First Carthage had to hand over
[29:54] Speaker 1: three hundred noble children as hostages, which they did. then
[29:59] Speaker 1: all of their weapons and armor, which they also did,
[30:03] Speaker 1: surrendering thousands of sets of arms. The Carthaginians likely hoped
[30:07] Speaker 1: that these concessions would satisfy Rome. But then the Romans
[30:12] Speaker 1: delivered another blow. They then told them, Oh, by the way,
[30:20] Speaker 1: you must destroy your entire city, and all of your
[30:24] Speaker 1: people must relocate inland away from the sea. Now come on,
[30:30] Speaker 1: that's just not cricket. This amounted to a death sentence
[30:35] Speaker 1: for the city, of course. And upon hearing this, the
[30:38] Speaker 1: Carthaginian senators and people in their delegation reacted with shock
[30:42] Speaker 1: and despair, as one might understand. Apian describes them lifting
[30:47] Speaker 1: their hands to heaven with loud cries, calling on the
[30:51] Speaker 1: gods as avengers of violated faith. They accused the Romans
[30:56] Speaker 1: of perfidy indeed. One of their leaders, Banno, reminded the
[31:00] Speaker 1: Romans that they had promised Carthage could remain free if
[31:04] Speaker 1: the hostages were given. Quoting, Your Senate sent us word
[31:09] Speaker 1: that if our hostages were delivered, Carthage should be left
[31:12] Speaker 1: free and autonomous. Now you demand Carthage itself be destroyed.
[31:17] Speaker 1: If it is right for you to destroy it, how
[31:20] Speaker 1: can you leave it free and autonomous as you said
[31:22] Speaker 1: you would? this impassioned plea. It was the Carthaginian view
[31:28] Speaker 1: that Rome had betrayed its own word. And yes, frankly,
[31:32] Speaker 1: they did. The Carthaginians felt they'd upheld the treaty. It
[31:37] Speaker 1: did everything that the Romans asked them to do. They'd
[31:41] Speaker 1: not violated the treaty, no ships, no elephants, and paid
[31:45] Speaker 1: their tribute dutifully. Yet Rome was unjustly and cynically plotting
[31:51] Speaker 1: their annihilation. The envoys' dramatic display, tearing their clothes, wailing
[31:57] Speaker 1: and even cursing Rome in front of the Roman consuls,
[32:00] Speaker 1: shows how cornered, wronged and panicked they felt. It's tragic, really.
[32:08] Speaker 1: Even the Roman consuls were moved to pity at the
[32:11] Speaker 1: sight of these proud men, utterly broken. But Roman policy
[32:18] Speaker 1: was not so sympathetic. Unmoved completely, a stark illustration that
[32:24] Speaker 1: by this point, hatred and fear had extinguished any chance
[32:29] Speaker 1: of mercy. Propaganda on the Roman side thus painted Carthage
[32:35] Speaker 1: as a menace that was treacherous, cruel, and even sacrilegious.
[32:40] Speaker 1: On the Carthaginian side, Rome appeared as a ruthless aggressor
[32:43] Speaker 1: that broke oaths and aimed at domination. Cultural misunderstandings only
[32:49] Speaker 1: worsened this. For instance, the Carthaginians practiced highly pragmatic diplomacy,
[32:55] Speaker 1: making and breaking alliances as needed in the mercantile empire,
[33:00] Speaker 1: which Romans interpreted, of course, as bad faith. Conversely, Romans'
[33:05] Speaker 1: absolutist approach to war, often demanding total surrender, struck the
[33:09] Speaker 1: Carthaginians as brutal. And each side had their patriots stoking
[33:14] Speaker 1: nationalists further, Just as Cato stirred Roman hatred, in Carthage
[33:20] Speaker 1: there were war hawks like Hannibal's family, and conversely moderates
[33:24] Speaker 1: on each side, etc., Hanno in Carthage, Scipio Nassica in Rome,
[33:30] Speaker 1: who just shouted down. Now we should note that not
[33:35] Speaker 1: all Romans were so blindly hateful. Some, like that mentioned,
[33:39] Speaker 1: Scipio Nassica argued that Carthage should be spared to serve
[33:43] Speaker 1: as a foiled to keep Rome's arrogance in check. Nazca
[33:49] Speaker 1: feared that without an external enemy, Rome's people would lose discipline. But,
[33:55] Speaker 1: of course, such voices lost out once the war drums
[33:58] Speaker 1: began to beat louder. Even in Roman literature and mythology,
[34:03] Speaker 1: we see the enmity elevated to cosmic significance. By the
[34:08] Speaker 1: time of the Roman Empire, the poet Virgil in the
[34:11] Speaker 1: Aeneid of the first century wove the legend of Dido,
[34:15] Speaker 1: the Carthaginian queen, and her tragic love affair with the
[34:19] Speaker 1: Trojan hero Aeneas, mythical ancestor of the Romans. In Virgil's tale,
[34:25] Speaker 1: when Aeneas abandons Dido, she curses him and his descendants,
[34:29] Speaker 1: declaring an eternal hatred between Carthage and Rome. Quote, Rise
[34:34] Speaker 1: up from my bones, avenging spirit. She cries, prophesying a
[34:39] Speaker 1: Carthaginian avenger who will haunt Rome. This is a clear
[34:42] Speaker 1: allusion to Hannibal, if you didn't catch it. Virgil thus
[34:46] Speaker 1: gives a divine fated dimension to the historical rivalry, suggesting
[34:51] Speaker 1: that the Punic Wars were the working of an ancient curse,
[34:55] Speaker 1: and that the hatred was simply part of destiny. While
[35:00] Speaker 1: this is myth-making, it certainly shows how the conflict resonated
[35:05] Speaker 1: in the Roman cultural memory. Romans of Virgil's time, long
[35:10] Speaker 1: after Carthage's fall, still felt something special, almost ordained, had
[35:16] Speaker 1: driven the intense hatred between the two peoples. So in sum,
[35:22] Speaker 1: cultural differences and propaganda created a kind of feedback loop.
[35:27] Speaker 1: Each atrocity or betrayal, real or alleged, was amplified by
[35:31] Speaker 1: the other side's proof of the enemy's depravity. Romans demonized
[35:37] Speaker 1: Carthage's cruel, child-sacrificing, double-crossing schemers. Carthaginians and some sympathetic Greeks
[35:44] Speaker 1: viewed the Romans as power-hungry, unscrupulous imperialists, willing to violate
[35:49] Speaker 1: faith and mercy to do anything to further their own end.
[35:54] Speaker 1: This mutual vilification helped justify the worst actions each took
[35:59] Speaker 1: against the other, and ensured that by the final war,
[36:03] Speaker 1: hatred eclipsed any common ground. The result was the extraordinary conclusion.
[36:12] Speaker 1: Carthago de Lenda Est. And they did destroy it. The
[36:22] Speaker 1: Point of No Return By the mid-second century BCE, all
[36:30] Speaker 1: these factors— economic rivalry, war, grudges, cultural venom, and the
[36:35] Speaker 1: propaganda— conversed towards their irreversible conclusion— The Roman cry, Carthage
[36:42] Speaker 1: must be destroyed, well, it wasn't just a catchy slogan.
[36:47] Speaker 1: It was a policy born of fear, greed, and a
[36:50] Speaker 1: kind of traumatic obsession. Each new incident only reinforced the mindset.
[36:57] Speaker 1: When Carthage, provoked beyond endurance by Numidian encroachments, finally fought back,
[37:05] Speaker 1: thus technically breaking the peace with Rome, It gave Rome
[37:09] Speaker 1: the pretext the Cassus Belli it was looking for. Senate
[37:14] Speaker 1: declared war, and Cato's long-held wish came true. And so
[37:21] Speaker 1: the Third Punic War, 149-146, in many ways was a
[37:26] Speaker 1: foregone conclusion. Not an outcome, of course. Carthage resisted fiercely,
[37:31] Speaker 1: but in its intent. Rome's objective was nothing short of
[37:36] Speaker 1: complete annihilation of a city. Carthage's desperate resistance during the siege,
[37:43] Speaker 1: despite having almost no weapons initially, since they'd surrendered all
[37:47] Speaker 1: of them, the citizens forged new swords, and even threw
[37:51] Speaker 1: household objects as missiles, actually earned grudging Roman admiration for
[37:56] Speaker 1: a time for doing theirs. But ultimately, Scipio Aemilianus breached
[38:02] Speaker 1: the walls in 146. The vengeful mood is captured by
[38:07] Speaker 1: Apian's description of what followed. the Romans went in with
[38:11] Speaker 1: orders to kill everyone they encountered, sparing none, a typical
[38:16] Speaker 1: command in storming a city. And so Carthage was systematically
[38:21] Speaker 1: burned and demolished. According to later traditions, the Romans ploughed
[38:27] Speaker 1: salt into the soil so nothing could grow, but that's
[38:30] Speaker 1: most likely a myth. Either way, it's a myth that
[38:34] Speaker 1: symbolizes the totality of the destruction. The Survivors perhaps 50,000
[38:41] Speaker 1: out of a population of a few hundred thousand, were
[38:44] Speaker 1: then sold into slavery. Carthage itself was wiped off the map. Later,
[38:52] Speaker 1: Romans even cursed the ground to forbid resettlement, though a
[38:56] Speaker 1: new Roman Carthage would eventually be built decades later. One
[39:01] Speaker 1: might think that when the dust settled, the Romans would
[39:04] Speaker 1: rejoice without remorse. Indeed, as mentioned, there were wild celebrations
[39:09] Speaker 1: in Rome, a sense of deliverance. Abian says that Rome's
[39:16] Speaker 1: felt confirmed in their worldwide supremacy, just now as assured
[39:21] Speaker 1: of the permanence of their own city. The holding fear
[39:25] Speaker 1: was gone. They truly believed Rome could never be threatened
[39:29] Speaker 1: in that way. way again. Yet, interestingly, there were also
[39:34] Speaker 1: notes of sobriety. Scipio Aemilianus, as he watched Carthage burn,
[39:40] Speaker 1: had famously wept at the sight of it. Witnesses, among
[39:44] Speaker 1: them the historian Polybius, heard Scipio softly reciting a line
[39:49] Speaker 1: from Homer, A day will come when sacred Troy shall perish,
[39:55] Speaker 1: reflecting on the fall of great cities. In Polybius' account,
[40:01] Speaker 1: Scipio then told him, This is a glorious moment, but
[40:06] Speaker 1: I have a dread foreboding that someday the same doom
[40:09] Speaker 1: will be pronounced on my own country. Yeah, foresight, huh?
[40:18] Speaker 1: It's a pretty extraordinary mark. It shows that at least
[40:21] Speaker 1: one Roman understood the tragic cycle of hatred and destruction. Scipio,
[40:27] Speaker 1: recalling how the Greeks once pitied the ruined city of Troy,
[40:31] Speaker 1: realized that in destroying Carthage utterly, Rome was not only
[40:35] Speaker 1: exacting vengeance, but also perhaps sowing the seeds of its
[40:39] Speaker 1: own moral caution. It's as if he recognized that hatred
[40:44] Speaker 1: had driven Rome to an extreme act. one that history
[40:47] Speaker 1: might judge harshly. And I'm judging it pretty harshly. No empire,
[40:54] Speaker 1: not even Rome, is immortal. So from a balanced perspective,
[41:01] Speaker 1: the Roman hatred of Carthage was so intense, but also instructive.
[41:07] Speaker 1: It teaches us how fear can turn into hatred, propaganda
[41:10] Speaker 1: can dehumanize any enemy, and how a republic can decide
[41:15] Speaker 1: on total war. shows the Carthaginian side how being cornered
[41:20] Speaker 1: and betrayed can lead to this desperate bravery. The last
[41:25] Speaker 1: stand of those people of Carthage, throwing out their kitchen
[41:29] Speaker 1: utensils and anything they had to try and knock some
[41:32] Speaker 1: Romans out. It's a last stand that's heroic in a
[41:36] Speaker 1: tragic way. There's even that anecdote during the final surrender.
[41:43] Speaker 1: The Carthaginian commander, Hasdrubal, who had cruelly resisted, begged Scipio
[41:49] Speaker 1: for mercy. His wife, seeing him grovel while the city burned,
[41:55] Speaker 1: denounced her husband's cowardice and leapt into the flames with
[41:59] Speaker 1: her children rather than being taken captive. In the end,
[42:06] Speaker 1: why did the Romans hate the Carthaginians so much? I
[42:10] Speaker 1: suppose it spans a century of conflict. They hated Carthage
[42:16] Speaker 1: because they feared its military genius and remembered their horrific losses.
[42:22] Speaker 1: They hated them because they envied their wealth and resented
[42:26] Speaker 1: the times where they had been humbled by them. They
[42:29] Speaker 1: hated Carthage because they were taught to hate Carthage by
[42:34] Speaker 1: those leaders who stoked cultural prejudices and propaganda depicting Carthaginians
[42:38] Speaker 1: as irredeemably cruel. And maybe they hated Carthage because in
[42:44] Speaker 1: it they saw a mirror of what imperial power could be,
[42:49] Speaker 1: something Rome was aspiring to with a similar relentlessness. Rome
[42:55] Speaker 1: couldn't tolerate an equal. Rome couldn't tolerate a rival. And thus,
[43:01] Speaker 1: Carthago delenda est. This hatred was not a one-way street.
[43:08] Speaker 1: Carthage had its own grievances. and their own reasons to
[43:11] Speaker 1: loathe Rome, which I'm sure were drummed up by the
[43:14] Speaker 1: same kinds of people. But Rome's hatred proved to be
[43:18] Speaker 1: more fateful, since Rome won decisively. But there is an
[43:24] Speaker 1: irony that once Carthage was gone, Rome had eliminated the
[43:28] Speaker 1: very foil that had kept it united and virtuous, just
[43:32] Speaker 1: as Scipio Nasca feared. Some decades later, Roman politics turned
[43:37] Speaker 1: inward and grew increasingly violent, Without an external enemy, Romans
[43:43] Speaker 1: found new enemies. Each other. In a sense, that ghost
[43:49] Speaker 1: of Carthage might have had the last laugh. Rome, triumphant
[43:54] Speaker 1: and unchallenged, eventually slid into civil wars and tyranny, perhaps
[43:58] Speaker 1: forgetting the harsh lessons that the Punic Wars had taught
[44:01] Speaker 1: about honour, resilience, and a little bit of respect for foes. Well,
[44:10] Speaker 1: we've seen how primary sources from the Roman side describe
[44:13] Speaker 1: all the hatred in vivid detail. From Cato's constant refrain
[44:17] Speaker 1: of Carthago de Linda Est, to Livy's scathing portrayal of
[44:22] Speaker 1: Hannibal's character, and Cicero's praise of a Roman who endured
[44:26] Speaker 1: Carthaginian cruelty to Polybius's recounting of the Barclay oath against Rome.
[44:32] Speaker 1: We also looked at the Carthaginian side as much as
[44:34] Speaker 1: we could, although it's through what the Romans can tell us.
[44:39] Speaker 1: Hanno's pleas for reason, Banno's protest of Rome's broken faith,
[44:45] Speaker 1: and the image of a proud nation ultimately driven to despair,
[44:49] Speaker 1: a mutual and escalating hatred, reaching a point where reconciliation
[44:54] Speaker 1: was impossible, a tragic trajectory that ended with Carthage in
[44:59] Speaker 1: ruins and Rome ascendant. But in the triumph lays a caution.
[45:06] Speaker 1: The last flames of Carthage reflected in Scipio's eyes reminded
[45:09] Speaker 1: him that no victory is without a moral cost. An
[45:13] Speaker 1: unchecked hatred can consume the hater as well as the hated.
[45:17] Speaker 1: In later years, Rome would remember Carthage as a great
[45:21] Speaker 1: enemy that ultimately justified Rome's own greatness in overcoming it.
[45:26] Speaker 1: The historian Sallust noted that after Carthage's removal, Rome lost
[45:31] Speaker 1: its unity and discipline, suggesting that the presence of Carthage
[45:36] Speaker 1: had in some way just been a healthy challenge for them.
[45:40] Speaker 1: Thus we can't look at this as a story of
[45:43] Speaker 1: good versus evil, but as just two powers locked in
[45:47] Speaker 1: a deadly dance. The hatred of Rome was extreme, but
[45:51] Speaker 1: in understanding it we uncover the fierce ideals and propaganda
[45:55] Speaker 1: that drove a republic to destroy a rival city. And
[45:59] Speaker 1: forever the course of history is altered. It's one of
[46:03] Speaker 1: antiquity's starkest examples. of how far a civilization will go
[46:09] Speaker 1: when it perceives an enemy as the embodiment of an
[46:12] Speaker 1: existential threat. And who knows, if history might have went
[46:17] Speaker 1: the other way, perhaps Roma delenda est. Well, on that note,
[46:25] Speaker 1: I am going to go to bed, because I'm tired.
[46:31] Speaker 1: That wasn't a very poetic sign-off, I do apologize. Well,
[46:35] Speaker 1: I'm going to thank, though, my top dear patrons and supporters. Dark, Kimberly, Christine, Sally, Amber, Susan, Cameron, Legitmus, Carrie, Charlene, Lynn, Therese, Katiana, Nicholas, Ulf, Edna, Alexander, Charles, Christine, Dr. Neuronerd, Aaron, Jayden, Jim, Jeffrey, Jessica, Madeline, Melissa,
[46:56] Speaker 1: Orthodox Review, Scott, Stark Factory, Cheryl, Wendy, Josie, Sarah, Videoman, Ryan, Thor, Cameron, Stefan, Kevin, HMSHH, Crystal,
[47:06] Speaker 1: and Talvary. Thank you all so much. And, as usual,
[47:14] Speaker 1: I will wish you all a good night, farewell, lots
[47:18] Speaker 1: of love to you all, and I will see you tomorrow.

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