# The Dark Night of the Soul - Bishop Barron's Daily Sermons

An episode of [Daily Sermons With Bishop Robert Barron](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6783446284), 21 Aug 2026, 41 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/73920857/the_dark_night_of_the_soul.mp3



## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: You know, dark night sounds like such a bad thing,
[0:02] Speaker 1: But think about this for a second. What happens on
[0:05] Speaker 1: a really dark night? Look up and suddenly there Look
[0:09] Speaker 1: at the stars. I didn't even know they were there.
[0:12] Speaker 1: Look at them. The stars now shine with a particular
[0:16] Speaker 1: brilliance because the other lights have been lowered. All right,
[0:21] Speaker 1: if I darken my ordinary way of perceiving, now that
[0:26] Speaker 1: which stands beyond this conditioned, finite world can begin to shine.
[0:39] Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Word on Fire show. I'm Brandon Vot,
[0:42] Speaker 2: the content director. Here at Word on Fire. Joining us
[0:45] Speaker 2: from Santa Barbara is Bishop Robert Baron. Bishop Baron, always
[0:50] Speaker 2: good to see you, Hey, Brandon.
[0:51] Speaker 1: Good to see you. How the kids doing in Orlando.
[0:54] Speaker 3: They are doing wonderful.
[0:56] Speaker 2: Schools winding down, summers getting nearer, so they're all of
[1:00] Speaker 2: seeing the light at the end of the tunnel of
[1:02] Speaker 2: the long school year with COVID and everything. Yeah, this
[1:06] Speaker 2: episode is going to be dropping in late March, which
[1:10] Speaker 2: will be after hopefully your recent discussion with doctor Jordan
[1:15] Speaker 2: Peterson has gone live.
[1:17] Speaker 3: I think it will already be published by then.
[1:19] Speaker 2: But you just had a conversation, gosh, what was it
[1:22] Speaker 2: a few days ago with doctor Peterson. This was the
[1:25] Speaker 2: second long dialogue that you've had with him. Tell us
[1:29] Speaker 2: about it.
[1:29] Speaker 3: How did it go? What were your immediate thoughts about it?
[1:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, real positive. I spoke to him for a solid
[1:35] Speaker 1: two hours, and he said, at one point you and
[1:39] Speaker 1: I both relike abstractions, don't we? And I said, yeah,
[1:41] Speaker 1: we do. You know, so we both love ideas, and
[1:44] Speaker 1: so we did a lot of oh, the Bible, morality, philosophy,
[1:48] Speaker 1: the present day culture, Nietzsche, jung you know, Dosteyevsky, Dante.
[1:54] Speaker 1: We covered all these things. He and I have a
[1:56] Speaker 1: lot in common in terms of our interests, and you know,
[1:59] Speaker 1: he was He was what you'd expect. I mean, he's
[2:02] Speaker 1: very smart, very sharp, very curious. We talked, of course,
[2:07] Speaker 1: a lot about religion, and I would say the relationship
[2:10] Speaker 1: between a more kind of Jungian archetypal approach to religious
[2:13] Speaker 1: texts and then a more call it properly evangelical approach
[2:18] Speaker 1: and Bible faith. All of that we talked about. So
[2:22] Speaker 1: it was a very stimulating conversation.
[2:25] Speaker 2: Maybe after it goes live, you and I can do
[2:28] Speaker 2: some sort of debriefing conversation where maybe we'll pick out
[2:31] Speaker 2: chunks from the interview and talk through them at a
[2:33] Speaker 2: little more depth.
[2:34] Speaker 3: But look forward to that.
[2:35] Speaker 2: I'm sure World on Fire will be sharing it whenever
[2:38] Speaker 2: it goes live, So if it hasn't come out yet,
[2:40] Speaker 2: it certainly will soon. Today, though, we are going to
[2:43] Speaker 2: be discussing the dark Night of the soul.
[2:46] Speaker 3: This is not a Batman film.
[2:48] Speaker 2: It's a religious concept that dates back hundreds of years
[2:51] Speaker 2: to one of the greatest doctors of the Church, namely
[2:54] Speaker 2: Saint John of the Cross. Now, before we get into
[2:57] Speaker 2: the concept itself, I was hoping, Bishop, maybe you can
[3:00] Speaker 2: just tell us a little bit about who Saint John
[3:02] Speaker 2: of the Cross was. What should we know about him?
[3:05] Speaker 1: Yeah? I love Saint John of the Cross, and one
[3:06] Speaker 1: reason is the parish I grew up in outside Chicago
[3:09] Speaker 1: was called Saint John of the Cross, so I knew
[3:12] Speaker 1: about him long before I read any of his great books.
[3:15] Speaker 1: John of the Cross would be the mystical version of
[3:18] Speaker 1: Thomas Aquinas, by which I mean the greatest of the
[3:21] Speaker 1: Church's doctors when it comes to the mystical life, as
[3:24] Speaker 1: Thomas is the greatest in the theological order. Johnathan Cross
[3:29] Speaker 1: lives in the second half of the sixteenth century, dies
[3:31] Speaker 1: in fifteen ninety one. I think born in fifteen forty two,
[3:35] Speaker 1: so he doesn't live a long life, only about forty
[3:38] Speaker 1: nine years. As a young man, he's well educated in
[3:41] Speaker 1: philosophy and theology, and there is indeed a great connection
[3:44] Speaker 1: between him and Thomas Aquinas. He knew aquinas well. You
[3:48] Speaker 1: want to know a contemporary commentator on this, read the
[3:52] Speaker 1: dissertation of the Young Carl Voytiwa. So young John Paul
[3:55] Speaker 1: the Second is in Rome under the direction of garygun Dagrange,
[3:59] Speaker 1: one of the great tome to the twentieth century. But
[4:01] Speaker 1: Voutiva writes not on Thomas directly, but on Juan de
[4:05] Speaker 1: la Cruz. Right, But Juanda la Cruz, John of the Cross,
[4:08] Speaker 1: was deeply indebted to Thomas Aquinas. So those two great doctors,
[4:12] Speaker 1: one more speculative, one mystical come together. John still as
[4:17] Speaker 1: a pretty young man, becomes associated with Teresa of Avila,
[4:21] Speaker 1: another one of his contemporaries, and they become leaders in
[4:25] Speaker 1: this reform movement within their carmelite order, and they become
[4:29] Speaker 1: the founders of the so called discalced Carmelite movement. It
[4:32] Speaker 1: just means without shoes, so it means a return to
[4:35] Speaker 1: greater simplicity and gospel radicalism. Well, As is often the case,
[4:41] Speaker 1: reformers are not super popular with those that are trying
[4:44] Speaker 1: to reform right. So John of Lacrosse suffers immensely at
[4:49] Speaker 1: the hands of his own brothers in the Carmelite order,
[4:52] Speaker 1: some of whom literally kidnapped him, arrested him, brought him
[4:56] Speaker 1: back to one of their houses, locked him in a closet,
[4:59] Speaker 1: essentially would bring him out to the dining area so
[5:04] Speaker 1: the monks who have a chance to beat him. So
[5:06] Speaker 1: he was actively persecuted by his own brothers while he
[5:10] Speaker 1: was under those conditions, and literally in that closet he composed.
[5:15] Speaker 1: He didn't have writing materials, they wouldn't give him that
[5:17] Speaker 1: he composed in his mind some of the masterpieces of
[5:21] Speaker 1: Spanish literature, and from these poems, including the nocea Scura
[5:25] Speaker 1: right the Dark Knight, he then develops these treatises on
[5:29] Speaker 1: the mystical and spiritual life. Eventually he escaped from that imprisonment.
[5:34] Speaker 1: But then you know, he dies, as I say, fairly young,
[5:37] Speaker 1: not well known in his lifetime, not a famous figure, died,
[5:43] Speaker 1: you know, not completely forgotten, but not as a prominent figure.
[5:47] Speaker 1: And then only after his death did the church come
[5:49] Speaker 1: to realize what a powerful witness he gave.
[5:54] Speaker 3: We'll spend a while on this dark night of the soul.
[5:56] Speaker 2: But what are some other key ideas and themes that
[5:59] Speaker 2: John contributed to the spiritual tradition?
[6:02] Speaker 1: Well, you know the different spiritual paths, So the ascent
[6:05] Speaker 1: of Mount Carmel. You know how we ascend toward union
[6:08] Speaker 1: with God, and we speak of the purgative way, the
[6:12] Speaker 1: illuminative way, and the unitive way. Those ideas go back
[6:15] Speaker 1: to our friend, the Pseudoynetius the Areopagite. Why he's called
[6:19] Speaker 1: pseudo and Areopagite we can talk about maybe in another program,
[6:23] Speaker 1: But he's a sixth century Syrian monk who writes some
[6:27] Speaker 1: massively influential texts. Thomas knew them very well, for example.
[6:32] Speaker 1: But he's the first one to give us these three
[6:34] Speaker 1: paths purgative, illuminative and unitive. But then that becomes a
[6:38] Speaker 1: standard of the mystical tradition. And John of the Cross
[6:41] Speaker 1: certainly employs that, but so would in their own way.
[6:45] Speaker 1: Catherine of Sienna, Bernard of Clairval think, you know, Brandon,
[6:50] Speaker 1: for those three ideas which are really fundamental, the purgative
[6:54] Speaker 1: way corresponds to what Bernard would call the kiss of
[6:58] Speaker 1: the feet. So someone is coming to Christ as a sinner,
[7:03] Speaker 1: really stuck in abject sin, what's the first move is
[7:06] Speaker 1: to kiss his feet in the attitude of a penitent, right,
[7:10] Speaker 1: So the purgative way to purge oneself of sin, the
[7:14] Speaker 1: illuminative way walking in the light. I've turned away from
[7:18] Speaker 1: the darkness of my attachments and addictions and sin, and
[7:21] Speaker 1: now I'm walking the path of discipleship. That's the kiss
[7:24] Speaker 1: of the hand, the way a disciple would kiss his
[7:27] Speaker 1: master's hand. Right when that process, if you want, is complete,
[7:33] Speaker 1: we're now ready for the unitive way. Bernard and Catherine
[7:39] Speaker 1: will compare that to the kiss of the mouth. So
[7:41] Speaker 1: there's the kiss of intimacy, the soul and Christ and
[7:45] Speaker 1: intimate union. John of the Cross will give us his
[7:48] Speaker 1: own version of those three mystical paths.
[7:53] Speaker 2: You mentioned that the young Carol boy T, when he's
[7:55] Speaker 2: studying at the Angelicum in Rome, was drawn to John
[7:58] Speaker 2: of the Cross.
[7:59] Speaker 3: Why do you think that is?
[8:00] Speaker 2: What about John of the Cross appealed to this future pope.
[8:04] Speaker 1: Well, because Voitiva was very influenced by the Carmelite tradition
[8:07] Speaker 1: through his friend Jan Turanowski, who was a layman from
[8:11] Speaker 1: his hometown and who gathered a lot of these young
[8:14] Speaker 1: people from the town into these they call them living
[8:17] Speaker 1: Rosary groups. But he taught them the church's mystical tradition,
[8:21] Speaker 1: including and especially John of the Cross and the Karmelite tradition.
[8:25] Speaker 1: You know, the Karmelite tradition includes Teresa of Avalo, whom
[8:28] Speaker 1: I mentioned, but also like in our own time, the
[8:30] Speaker 1: little flower is coming up out of the Karmelite tradition.
[8:33] Speaker 1: And one of my great heroes, Edith Stein right, who
[8:37] Speaker 1: becomes a Carmelite sister and whose final work left unfinished
[8:42] Speaker 1: on her desk literally when the Nazis took her to Auschwitz,
[8:46] Speaker 1: was a commentary on Saint John of the Cross called
[8:49] Speaker 1: the Science of the Cross. So that whole tradition intrigued
[8:55] Speaker 1: the young Karl voitiwa one reason why he moved to
[8:59] Speaker 1: Canadize Edish Stein. So I think that's why he was
[9:02] Speaker 1: drawn to John of Lacrosse.
[9:04] Speaker 2: You know, people like you and I which are who
[9:07] Speaker 2: are very drawn to the rationalistic side of the faith,
[9:10] Speaker 2: philosophic proofs and the tonistic disputatio with very logical steps
[9:16] Speaker 2: and counter arguments and all that stuff. But I found
[9:19] Speaker 2: that among my friends and family, people that aren't as
[9:23] Speaker 2: much drawn to that are more drawn to the style
[9:26] Speaker 2: and writings of John of the Cross, which tends to
[9:29] Speaker 2: be more poetic, more lyrical. Talk about these differing styles,
[9:34] Speaker 2: and I want to not con make them opposed to
[9:39] Speaker 2: each other. It's not like we got to choose one
[9:41] Speaker 2: or two, but talk about the style in which he wrote.
[9:44] Speaker 1: Yeah, and stay with those two examples of Thomas Aquinas
[9:47] Speaker 1: and Juando la Cruz, because they both have both. Right.
[9:51] Speaker 1: So Thomas, yes, high intellectualism and Aristotle and syllogistic reasoning
[9:56] Speaker 1: and scholastic method and yes, yet all that because he knew,
[10:00] Speaker 1: you know, that God does not despised the mind. He
[10:02] Speaker 1: knew that reason is not something opposed to revelations. So yes, yes, yes,
[10:07] Speaker 1: but a Quaintas both in his writings but more importantly
[10:11] Speaker 1: in his life, was deeply ordered to a mystical way
[10:16] Speaker 1: of knowing. So think of some of those extraordinary experiences
[10:19] Speaker 1: Thomas had in the course of his life, culminating in
[10:22] Speaker 1: the All I've written is straw. It's a very interesting
[10:25] Speaker 1: moment because that is not a despairing cry. It should
[10:28] Speaker 1: never be read that way. Rather, it's at the end
[10:32] Speaker 1: of his striving he said, something's been revealed to me,
[10:37] Speaker 1: compared to which everything I've written is such straw. That's
[10:41] Speaker 1: not a despairing voice, that's a that's a voice of exultation, right.
[10:48] Speaker 1: I mean, he knew he had sort of written theology
[10:51] Speaker 1: about as at high levels you can get, but compared
[10:56] Speaker 1: to the mystical union that he was granted, it's like
[10:59] Speaker 1: it's like nothing you know. Now do it the other
[11:03] Speaker 1: way John of the Cross, who is one of the
[11:06] Speaker 1: great articulators of the mystical path. But John of the
[11:09] Speaker 1: Cross deeply imbued in the scholastic method of Thomas Aquinas,
[11:13] Speaker 1: And when you read his writings, they don't sound like
[11:16] Speaker 1: you know, Oprah or something. I mean, they're they're very disciplined,
[11:20] Speaker 1: very intellectual, very much ordered to this sort of rational
[11:25] Speaker 1: substrate if you want so. My point is, though they've
[11:28] Speaker 1: got different sort of styles and emphasies, both Aquinas and
[11:32] Speaker 1: Juan de Lacruz saw the two together. You know, A
[11:36] Speaker 1: really good example, Brandon in the twentieth century is Jacques
[11:39] Speaker 1: Meritan's great book called The Degrees of Knowledge. Did because
[11:46] Speaker 1: Mary Tan talk about an aquinas man right, and love love, love,
[11:49] Speaker 1: the scholastic philosophical method. But then he realizes, beyond physics, mathematics, metaphysics,
[11:58] Speaker 1: you come to the mystical knowledge that's given only in
[12:03] Speaker 1: revelation and through grace. And whom does he put at
[12:06] Speaker 1: the top of that whole process, Juan de la Cruz,
[12:10] Speaker 1: you know, And so I really like your instinct to say,
[12:12] Speaker 1: don't drive a wedge between these things at all, because
[12:16] Speaker 1: a mysticism without a rational foundation can become kind of
[12:20] Speaker 1: airy fairy and kind of unanchored. You know, a philosophy
[12:25] Speaker 1: without the mystical can easily become rationalistic. Use our friend
[12:30] Speaker 1: of John Henry Newman, right. Newman saw the prophetic office
[12:33] Speaker 1: of the church that's very much geared to teaching and
[12:36] Speaker 1: order and understanding and theology. But then there's the priestly dimension, right,
[12:43] Speaker 1: and the priesting dimension that's now monasticism and liturgy and
[12:47] Speaker 1: prayer and mysticism. And what Newman saw is if you
[12:52] Speaker 1: got the priestly without the prophetic, it can become sort
[12:55] Speaker 1: of superstitious. You have the prophetic without the priestly, it
[12:59] Speaker 1: becomes rationalistic. What you need is a two together. Mind you,
[13:03] Speaker 1: under the aegis of the king, we office of the church.
[13:07] Speaker 1: So part of the job of the king is to
[13:10] Speaker 1: order these various keroisms. Don't let the prophets get too crazy,
[13:14] Speaker 1: don't let the mystics get too crazy. But keep the
[13:16] Speaker 1: mystics and the profits in conversation. And then you have
[13:20] Speaker 1: Thomas Aquinas and Juanda la Cruz are a very good
[13:23] Speaker 1: example of that.
[13:26] Speaker 2: Let's turn to what's probably the most famous and recognizable
[13:31] Speaker 2: idea of John of the Cross, which is this concept
[13:33] Speaker 2: of dark knight of the soul, and maybe we'll we'll
[13:36] Speaker 2: start where all good thinkers and philosophers start with this,
[13:39] Speaker 2: which is with a definition. So what do we mean
[13:41] Speaker 2: when we say dark knight of the soul?
[13:43] Speaker 3: What is that?
[13:45] Speaker 1: Let me start this way. Brandon by a really interesting instinct,
[13:49] Speaker 1: and we see it all the time. When people pray.
[13:52] Speaker 1: What's one of the physical things they most automatically do
[13:56] Speaker 1: They close their eyes? Right now? Why is that? Why
[14:01] Speaker 1: would people close their eyes when they pray? Well, for
[14:04] Speaker 1: really good reason. The eyes order me toward this world.
[14:09] Speaker 1: So right now I'm looking at picture of you on
[14:11] Speaker 1: this camera. There's lights around me, and I'm gonna get
[14:13] Speaker 1: my car later, and my eyes will be looking around
[14:15] Speaker 1: to see how to get home. And good, that's what
[14:18] Speaker 1: eyes are for. They order me to the conditioned things
[14:21] Speaker 1: of this world. Is God in that realm uh? Oh?
[14:25] Speaker 1: God is not one of the conditioned things in the world.
[14:27] Speaker 1: He made them. Yes they're good. Yes, we're not Puritans here,
[14:31] Speaker 1: we're not playing that game. So that's always a danger. Oh,
[14:35] Speaker 1: I guess you're closing your eyes because you don't like
[14:37] Speaker 1: the world. No, no, no, don't go down that path.
[14:41] Speaker 1: But God is not anything in the world. So if
[14:45] Speaker 1: I'm going to really come to communion with God to
[14:49] Speaker 1: some degree, I have to darken the senses. I have
[14:54] Speaker 1: to go through a dark night of the senses. John
[14:58] Speaker 1: of the Cross calls in it. Now take the next step.
[15:01] Speaker 1: I got my eyes and my ears and my hands
[15:03] Speaker 1: that order me to this world. What else does that? Well?
[15:06] Speaker 1: My mind, right, my mind which uses words and ideas
[15:10] Speaker 1: and concepts and arguments and syllogisms, And what's it doing.
[15:15] Speaker 1: It's making its way through this world. So you're a lawyer,
[15:19] Speaker 1: your doctor, you're a businessman, or whatever you are, you're
[15:22] Speaker 1: using your mind to make your way in a more
[15:24] Speaker 1: sophisticated manner through this world. So an animal can do
[15:27] Speaker 1: it using its senses, we do it with both senses
[15:30] Speaker 1: and our minds. Right, Okay, God doesn't despise any of that.
[15:36] Speaker 1: We're not anti intellectuals. But God is beyond anything that
[15:43] Speaker 1: words and concepts and ideas and syllogisms can give us. Therefore,
[15:49] Speaker 1: I close these eyes when I pray dark Knight of
[15:52] Speaker 1: the senses, and I have to close. If you want
[15:56] Speaker 1: the eyes of the mind too, they have to close
[16:00] Speaker 1: because God is beyond what the mind can manipulate control.
[16:05] Speaker 1: Understand right, The dark night of the soul and the
[16:10] Speaker 1: dark night of the senses are about this process of
[16:15] Speaker 1: quieting the body, quieting the soul so as to open
[16:24] Speaker 1: to a graced knowledge of that reality which transcends whatever
[16:29] Speaker 1: the senses and mind can grasp. So it's you know,
[16:34] Speaker 1: dark night sounds like such a bad thing, But think
[16:36] Speaker 1: about this for a second. What happens on a really
[16:39] Speaker 1: dark night? Look up and suddenly there look at the stars.
[16:44] Speaker 1: I didn't even know they were there. Look at them
[16:47] Speaker 1: that the stars now shine with a particular brilliance because
[16:51] Speaker 1: the other lights have been lowered. Right, if I darken
[16:56] Speaker 1: my ordinary way of perceiving, now that which stands beyond
[17:01] Speaker 1: this conditioned, finite world can begin to shine. That's what
[17:05] Speaker 1: he's talking about.
[17:08] Speaker 2: You've spoken often on Saint John's language of attachment and detachment.
[17:13] Speaker 2: How does that fit in with this dark Knight of
[17:15] Speaker 2: the soul?
[17:15] Speaker 1: Exactly at that point, Because again, the world is great,
[17:19] Speaker 1: and he knows that, he says that he's a Catholic,
[17:22] Speaker 1: he's not a Puritan or Platanist. But if I live
[17:27] Speaker 1: totally in the realm of the senses and what the
[17:29] Speaker 1: mind can control, it becomes very easy to get attached
[17:34] Speaker 1: to the things of the world. My life is all
[17:37] Speaker 1: about the things of the world. Now I'm recording these
[17:40] Speaker 1: words during Lent, so we have a version of the
[17:42] Speaker 1: Dark Knight of the Senses during Lent. Right is I say, well,
[17:45] Speaker 1: I'm going to abstain from certain things. I'm going to
[17:47] Speaker 1: give up certain things. I'm trying to detach myself from
[17:52] Speaker 1: an inordinate connection to the things of this world. So
[17:57] Speaker 1: that's where if I identify let's say, it's it's wealth,
[18:00] Speaker 1: it's power, it's a sensual pleasure, it's booze, it's food,
[18:05] Speaker 1: whatever it is is, I'm too involved with that well, yeah,
[18:09] Speaker 1: I've got a darken. I've got to darken that sensual
[18:12] Speaker 1: side of my life if I'm going to come to
[18:14] Speaker 1: knowledge of what goes beyond it.
[18:18] Speaker 2: I think it's pretty common in Catholic circles, and I'm
[18:21] Speaker 2: sure you've experienced this as a priest and a spiritual
[18:23] Speaker 2: director to hear people say, oh, I'm going through a
[18:25] Speaker 2: dark Knight of the soul.
[18:27] Speaker 3: I'm having a tough time, or you know, I'm.
[18:29] Speaker 2: Sad, I'm maybe borderline depressed, I'm confused, I'm anxious. How
[18:34] Speaker 2: do we distinguish this very specific concept of the dark
[18:39] Speaker 2: Knight of the Soul of John of the Cross from
[18:41] Speaker 2: just general sadness, depression, anxiety, confusion.
[18:44] Speaker 1: Right, they're different, They're not the same thing at all.
[18:48] Speaker 1: Now here's the point of contact. There was a point
[18:51] Speaker 1: where we could see a connection. Namely, if I am
[18:55] Speaker 1: attached through my senses and through my mind to the
[18:59] Speaker 1: things of this world and I want to get detached,
[19:01] Speaker 1: well that can be painful, right, It's not easy if
[19:05] Speaker 1: I'm so ordered to this world, so closing my eyes
[19:09] Speaker 1: and getting focused on a reality beyond, or saying I'm
[19:12] Speaker 1: going to get detached from sensual pleasure or from money
[19:15] Speaker 1: or power. Yeah, that's hard, it's a challenge, but that's
[19:20] Speaker 1: not the same as depression or psychological anxiety. Here's another distinction, Brandon,
[19:25] Speaker 1: which I think is really interesting. Wanda la Cruz talks
[19:28] Speaker 1: about the active night of the senses, the active night
[19:33] Speaker 1: of the soul, and the passive night of the senses
[19:37] Speaker 1: and of the soul. What's the difference. Well, in the
[19:39] Speaker 1: first one, I'm kind of in charge. I say, Okay,
[19:41] Speaker 1: I am to attach. So I'm now going to get
[19:43] Speaker 1: detached from whatever. I'm going to abstain. I'm going to fast,
[19:47] Speaker 1: I'm going to close my eyes. Good good, That's something
[19:51] Speaker 1: that I'm able to do. But he says, and I
[19:55] Speaker 1: think he's dead right about this. Anyone that's lived the
[19:57] Speaker 1: spiritual life knows that's never going to be enough because
[20:02] Speaker 1: we have such a tendency to stay within the confines
[20:06] Speaker 1: of our ordinary experience. So what does God have to do.
[20:09] Speaker 1: God's got to take the initiative now and take away
[20:13] Speaker 1: from us things that we do not want to be
[20:16] Speaker 1: separated from. Now they're suffering if you want, Yeah, absolutely,
[20:20] Speaker 1: So this is very to me, Brandon, really interesting. So
[20:24] Speaker 1: someone's going through their life and suddenly something that they
[20:28] Speaker 1: loved and it was good in itself and it's not sinful,
[20:32] Speaker 1: let's say, but something they loved was taken away from them,
[20:37] Speaker 1: some dream they had. Now I realized that's not going
[20:41] Speaker 1: to happen, some relationship and now it's been severed, and
[20:48] Speaker 1: I'm suffering from that. I hate it, I'm objecting to it.
[20:52] Speaker 1: But might I read it not just in worldly terms,
[20:55] Speaker 1: but now begin to read it theologically and spiritually. Maybe
[21:00] Speaker 1: God is taking this away from me? Why that I
[21:05] Speaker 1: might find a greater detachment that will enable me to
[21:09] Speaker 1: come to a higher and more intense relationship with him.
[21:12] Speaker 1: So like, if you're doing spiritual direction with someone and
[21:15] Speaker 1: they're going through a real struggle because they've lost something,
[21:20] Speaker 1: it might be a fair question to ask. Okay, remember
[21:23] Speaker 1: our friend Jean Pierre de Cosad, Right, whatever happens is
[21:26] Speaker 1: directly or indirectly God's will. Okay, how come it's God's
[21:30] Speaker 1: will right now in your life that this be taken
[21:32] Speaker 1: away from you? You know, maybe that's serving God's purpose
[21:37] Speaker 1: of drawing you closer to himself. Here's another thing that
[21:42] Speaker 1: John la Cross is really good at. Brandon. I used
[21:44] Speaker 1: to use it a lot in spiritual direction with people.
[21:47] Speaker 1: He said, typically when someone's being drawn into friendship with God,
[21:53] Speaker 1: God gives a lot of consolations. Now you know what
[21:56] Speaker 1: I think of I've shared some of this autobiography before,
[22:00] Speaker 1: but when I was a young guy and I discover
[22:02] Speaker 1: Thomas Aquinas and then I started reading The Seventh Story
[22:06] Speaker 1: Mountain of Thomas Merton, I remember that period of my
[22:09] Speaker 1: life with great joy and great exuberance because I was
[22:14] Speaker 1: experiencing tremendous consolation. It was exciting to me. I remember
[22:21] Speaker 1: the same time, I was listening to the Beatles a lot.
[22:23] Speaker 1: I was just kind of discovering them. I can hear
[22:26] Speaker 1: a Beatles song to this day and it reminds me
[22:29] Speaker 1: vividly of that moment. And God was giving me, I
[22:32] Speaker 1: would say, a lot of consolation to draw me into
[22:36] Speaker 1: friendship with him. Right, Well, John the Cross says, fine,
[22:39] Speaker 1: it often works that way, but almost invariably, what's God
[22:44] Speaker 1: going to do? He's going to withdraw the consolation? Why?
[22:47] Speaker 1: Because he's cruel? No, No, it's like weaning a child. Right,
[22:53] Speaker 1: You're not meant to fall in love with the consolation.
[22:56] Speaker 1: You're meant to fall in love with God and God's
[22:58] Speaker 1: will and that might not be very consoling. Sometimes it
[23:01] Speaker 1: might be really challenging. Maximilian Colbet, you know, offering his
[23:07] Speaker 1: life in exchange for this man, was that consoling to him?
[23:13] Speaker 1: On the contrary, because he learned long before not to
[23:17] Speaker 1: fall in love with consolations, but to fall in love
[23:19] Speaker 1: with God's will. And so John of the Cross will
[23:22] Speaker 1: say that God, now this is the passive night of
[23:25] Speaker 1: the senses, the passive night of the soul is he
[23:28] Speaker 1: might take things away from us that we're not willing
[23:31] Speaker 1: to let go of ourselves. Does that makes sense? So
[23:34] Speaker 1: it's not depression, not at all. But it can be
[23:37] Speaker 1: a struggle for sure.
[23:41] Speaker 2: I think it's hard for a lot of people experiencing
[23:44] Speaker 2: a legitimate dark knight of the soul to see it
[23:46] Speaker 2: as something positive, as a gift. But that's the sense
[23:49] Speaker 2: you get when you read John of the Cross that
[23:51] Speaker 2: if this is happening to you, this is a good thing.
[23:54] Speaker 2: This isn't a punishment, this isn't an arbitrary thing. It's
[23:57] Speaker 2: actually a gift that God is giving you. How do
[24:00] Speaker 2: we how do we see it as a positive thing
[24:02] Speaker 2: rather than as a negative one.
[24:04] Speaker 1: We have to become convinced that God is not a
[24:06] Speaker 1: distant object out there basically indifferent to us, and we're
[24:10] Speaker 1: trying to climb the Holy Mountain if we can figure
[24:13] Speaker 1: out how to do it. No, No, God is always
[24:18] Speaker 1: already after us, always wants a deeper relationship with us.
[24:24] Speaker 1: And so then start reading your life under that rubric. Oh,
[24:28] Speaker 1: I don't know why this happened to me, And I
[24:30] Speaker 1: don't know. It's just dumb suffering and it's just not fair,
[24:33] Speaker 1: and I'm mad and I'm frustrated. No. If God is
[24:36] Speaker 1: God and he's providential over all things, interested above all
[24:41] Speaker 1: in cultivating a friendship, Well, okay, the right question is
[24:46] Speaker 1: what's gone up to and how can I cooperate with that?
[24:50] Speaker 1: I think I said before Brandon, when I was doing
[24:52] Speaker 1: spiritual direction with people's that was always the basic question.
[24:56] Speaker 1: What were the graces that happened to you the last
[24:58] Speaker 1: two weeks? How did you operate with them? And so
[25:01] Speaker 1: to see, Okay, I this dream of mine, I guess
[25:05] Speaker 1: it's not going to happen all right? Why Why would
[25:09] Speaker 1: God have willed Ben? What grace is contained in God
[25:12] Speaker 1: taking that away from you? You know? Father Steve, my
[25:16] Speaker 1: my friend and colleague, loves John of the Cross always
[25:19] Speaker 1: tell the story one of John of Lacrosse's carmelite young
[25:23] Speaker 1: you know colleagues. She said, oh, Master, there's this crucifix
[25:28] Speaker 1: I have that I love it. I just love it.
[25:30] Speaker 1: I pray so well with it. And Johnacrosse give it
[25:32] Speaker 1: to me because he felt, all right, you're too attached
[25:36] Speaker 1: to it, you know, give it to me. And so
[25:39] Speaker 1: does God operate that way sometimes? Yeah? Yeah. If I'm saying, look,
[25:43] Speaker 1: I'm falling in love with consolations, he doesn't want that.
[25:46] Speaker 1: He wants you to fall in love with his will.
[25:49] Speaker 3: That reminded me.
[25:49] Speaker 2: Next time we're together, I'm not going to say, Bishop,
[25:51] Speaker 2: I love this book that I give it to meeting
[25:53] Speaker 2: it's so good, give.
[25:54] Speaker 1: It to me, ayase, I don't want to. I don't
[25:56] Speaker 1: want to generalize. John certainly would have known that, young man,
[25:59] Speaker 1: and or whatever particular reason, felt that was the right
[26:02] Speaker 1: move to make.
[26:02] Speaker 2: You know, how about for somebody who thinks they may
[26:06] Speaker 2: be experiencing something like this dark Knight of the Soul,
[26:09] Speaker 2: I think a good first move would need to read
[26:11] Speaker 2: John of the Cross and follow the way he describes
[26:14] Speaker 2: it and analyzes it. And then I think a second
[26:17] Speaker 2: good move, if available, is to find a good spiritual
[26:19] Speaker 2: director and talk with it, talk about it with them.
[26:22] Speaker 2: But what are your general tips for discerning whether we're
[26:27] Speaker 2: experiencing authentic dark Knight of the soul versus depression, sadness, confusion, anxiety.
[26:34] Speaker 2: How do we assess that in our own lives.
[26:36] Speaker 1: I kept to hear on my phone. I found the
[26:40] Speaker 1: great poem The Dark Knight, right by John of the Cross.
[26:43] Speaker 1: And here's a cool thing about John of the Cross.
[26:45] Speaker 1: I think he's unique in the literary tradition. John is
[26:49] Speaker 1: recognized as one of the masters of Spanish literature period.
[26:52] Speaker 1: And he's writing around the same time as Shakespeare. He's
[26:55] Speaker 1: writing in the fifteen eighties. Shakespeare's like around sixteen hundred, right, Spaniards.
[27:00] Speaker 1: I used to tell my students who are native Spanish
[27:03] Speaker 1: speakers and said, you got to read him, read him
[27:06] Speaker 1: in your own language because But then, here's why he's unique.
[27:10] Speaker 1: He writes a poem, beautiful, beautifully crafted, as you'll hear.
[27:14] Speaker 1: But then he writes a two hundred page treatise explaining
[27:18] Speaker 1: his poem. I don't know any other great figure that
[27:20] Speaker 1: does that. It's like if T. S. Eliott, you know,
[27:23] Speaker 1: writes the Wasteland and oh, by the way, here's a
[27:25] Speaker 1: five hundred page commentary on the wasteland. No one does
[27:28] Speaker 1: that except John on the Cross. So the treatises we
[27:31] Speaker 1: have are their elaborations of So here's by the way,
[27:36] Speaker 1: he doesn't use the phrase dark knight of the soul here,
[27:39] Speaker 1: it's simply enocha scura on a dark night. But see, listen,
[27:45] Speaker 1: this is a poem for lovers. It's not a poem
[27:48] Speaker 1: for depressed people. And that's why it's really married people
[27:53] Speaker 1: can best understand this. John of the Cross is standing
[27:56] Speaker 1: attrition that goes back through Bernard, for sure, but behind
[28:00] Speaker 1: Bernard all the way to Origin, behind Origin, to the
[28:05] Speaker 1: song of songs. Right, this book in the Bible that
[28:08] Speaker 1: never mentions God once. But it's a love poem. It's
[28:11] Speaker 1: between a young man and a young woman, and they're
[28:14] Speaker 1: in this sort of you know, playful, amorous relationship, and
[28:19] Speaker 1: it's the young man kind of calling out to the
[28:22] Speaker 1: young woman and so on. Well, the church saw that
[28:24] Speaker 1: as God calling out to the soul, which is always
[28:28] Speaker 1: conceived of as a woman. Right, So the bride bridegroom imagery, Well, listen,
[28:34] Speaker 1: Jonathan Cross, and you tell me if this is the
[28:36] Speaker 1: poem of a depressed person, right, or is about depression
[28:40] Speaker 1: in a nochez scura on a dark night colan cis
[28:44] Speaker 1: and a mooris inflammata, something like, you know, fired by
[28:47] Speaker 1: by love's longings. Young young people falling in love know
[28:52] Speaker 1: he's talking about, Oh the chosva, Oh what a blessed fortune,
[28:58] Speaker 1: you know, salih isando YadA. I went out right without
[29:06] Speaker 1: being noticed. Listen, my house now being all quieted. What's that?
[29:13] Speaker 1: The house of my body, the house of my senses,
[29:16] Speaker 1: They've been quieted. Close my eyes so now, and I'm
[29:20] Speaker 1: in love, but I'm going out from this world of
[29:24] Speaker 1: ordinary experience to meet my beloved.
[29:26] Speaker 4: Right.
[29:29] Speaker 1: And then in the second stanza again it ends with
[29:32] Speaker 1: istando ya casa sagada and the double thing here is
[29:35] Speaker 1: the dark Knight of the sense, is dark knight of
[29:37] Speaker 1: the soul. My house at the sensual level and at
[29:40] Speaker 1: the intellectual level all being so, sayada, it's all being quieted, right,
[29:45] Speaker 1: ens in this blessed night en secreto in secret, no
[29:51] Speaker 1: one seeing me, nijo miraba kosa. So neither am I
[29:56] Speaker 1: looking at anything see because I got my eyes closed.
[29:59] Speaker 1: I'm not looking king at the world, right slus iia
[30:04] Speaker 1: sino lake ada, without any light or guide except that
[30:10] Speaker 1: which burned in my own heart. So he's quiet at
[30:13] Speaker 1: his house. He's looking for his beloved. What's the light
[30:17] Speaker 1: his own ardent desire for the beloved. Depression depression, This
[30:22] Speaker 1: ain't depression. This is someone who's wildly in love, right,
[30:28] Speaker 1: and then his beloved waiting for him. And then this
[30:31] Speaker 1: lovely och k gyaste, the knight that guided amable mascula ala.
[30:38] Speaker 1: It's more lovely than the dawnch k juntaste, the knight
[30:43] Speaker 1: that brings together. Listen now amalo kona mada amada and
[30:49] Speaker 1: almado transfer mara, the beloved with the lover, the lover
[30:54] Speaker 1: with the beloved, the beloved in the lover transformed. What's
[30:57] Speaker 1: he talking about but sexual union. So it's the coming
[31:01] Speaker 1: together of the lover and the beloved. And even see
[31:04] Speaker 1: how the language, with all the doubling and all the
[31:07] Speaker 1: repetition and so on, is meant to suggest. Then and
[31:11] Speaker 1: then you know this this extraordinary and me patro florido.
[31:16] Speaker 1: So this is the soul speaking. So the soul is
[31:18] Speaker 1: a woman, The sole thing is a woman on my
[31:22] Speaker 1: flowering breast, and me patro florido cane, which has been
[31:28] Speaker 1: kept solely for him. These are two lovers, right, and
[31:32] Speaker 1: I exist totally for you. I Gromo. There he stayed
[31:38] Speaker 1: sleeping and with the fanning of the cedars made a breeze.
[31:43] Speaker 1: I mean, it's this very romantic image two people who
[31:47] Speaker 1: have found each other, fallen in love and have come together. Now,
[31:52] Speaker 1: what do you notice the house all quieted. That's the
[31:56] Speaker 1: purgative way, right, I'm going to purge myself of san
[32:00] Speaker 1: an attachment and all that, and then guided only by
[32:04] Speaker 1: the light of my own heart. What's that? That's the
[32:06] Speaker 1: illuminative way. That's the way of discipleship. And then finally
[32:10] Speaker 1: once this where they come together and now he's lying
[32:14] Speaker 1: on her breast, it's the unitive way. This is the
[32:17] Speaker 1: way now of complete you know, connection. Anyway, lovely married
[32:24] Speaker 1: people should read this poetry because it goes right back
[32:26] Speaker 1: to the song of songs and it's all about using
[32:30] Speaker 1: sexual union and romantic love as a metaphor for the
[32:35] Speaker 1: soul's relationship with God. Right, So can you read this
[32:40] Speaker 1: poem with all of it's it's romance and all of
[32:44] Speaker 1: it's lyricism and say, oh yeah, that's a depressed person
[32:47] Speaker 1: talking on the contrary, the dark Knight enables him to
[32:52] Speaker 1: go out with his heart on fire and find his beloved.
[32:55] Speaker 1: And that's the whole purpose of the dark Knight of
[32:58] Speaker 1: the senses and of the soul.
[33:02] Speaker 2: Let's close by looking at a recent saint who experience
[33:06] Speaker 2: this dark Knight of the soul in a profound way,
[33:08] Speaker 2: namely Mother Teresa. One of our mutual friends, Father Paul Murray,
[33:12] Speaker 2: wrote a whole book titled I Loved Jesus in the Night,
[33:17] Speaker 2: which was reflecting on the revelations Mother Teresa, the revelations
[33:22] Speaker 2: we had after Mother Teresa's death when her diaries were published,
[33:25] Speaker 2: and it became very clear that for not just months
[33:29] Speaker 2: or years, but for decades even she experienced this profound
[33:33] Speaker 2: dark Knight of the soul. Can you talk about how
[33:35] Speaker 2: that shaped her and what her experiences were like.
[33:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, at the beginning of her call, especially
[33:41] Speaker 1: to serve the poorest, the poor, she had a lot
[33:44] Speaker 1: of consolations. She heard and she said, quite literally the
[33:49] Speaker 1: voice of Jesus calling her, and she felt as extraordinary
[33:53] Speaker 1: intimacy and extraordinary sense of purpose. Well, she was given
[33:58] Speaker 1: all kinds of consolations. But then Christ took those away. Now,
[34:02] Speaker 1: why well, consult John of the Cross. You take them
[34:05] Speaker 1: away because God wants you. Christ wants you to fall
[34:08] Speaker 1: in love with his will, which she did. There's no
[34:10] Speaker 1: question about her. She fell in love with the will
[34:12] Speaker 1: of Christ, which was to serve the poorest of the poor.
[34:15] Speaker 1: Paul Murray talks about this, which I think is very
[34:17] Speaker 1: John of the Cross esque. Namely, it's the closeness of
[34:22] Speaker 1: God to us that can produce a darkening. Know why,
[34:26] Speaker 1: because it's the overpowering of the light. You know, erisy
[34:30] Speaker 1: I'll said that a long time ago, that we can
[34:31] Speaker 1: be blind through lack of light or excess of light.
[34:36] Speaker 1: So there's no light, I don't see what's going on.
[34:37] Speaker 1: But if you give me excess of light, I also
[34:39] Speaker 1: can't see what's going on. So the saints are those
[34:43] Speaker 1: who live very close to God's will and they experience
[34:47] Speaker 1: therefore a kind of excess of light. If you're living
[34:51] Speaker 1: in God, it's going to make you there certain awkwardness
[34:57] Speaker 1: now of your involvement with the world, because you've been decentered,
[35:02] Speaker 1: you've been displaced in a way, you've been placed in
[35:04] Speaker 1: a higher world, and so you're overwhelmed. There's too much light,
[35:11] Speaker 1: and that can feel like darkness, and I think there's
[35:15] Speaker 1: something of that in the Mother Teresa experience.
[35:26] Speaker 2: Well, it's time now for our question from one of
[35:29] Speaker 2: our listeners. If you have a question for Bishop Baron,
[35:31] Speaker 2: you can record it and send it in to us
[35:33] Speaker 2: by visiting the website Askbishop Baron dot com. Today we
[35:37] Speaker 2: have a question from Agnes in New York. She is
[35:39] Speaker 2: asking about God's murror or God's humor.
[35:43] Speaker 3: Here's her question.
[35:46] Speaker 4: Hi, Bishop Baron, this is Agnes from New York. Thank
[35:50] Speaker 4: you for all the work you do. I'm a big
[35:52] Speaker 4: fan of yours. I was wondering if you had any
[35:55] Speaker 4: thoughts as to whether God has a sense of humor,
[35:58] Speaker 4: and if he does, would his humor be objective so
[36:02] Speaker 4: that everyone should find it funny?
[36:04] Speaker 1: Thank you, that's good. I would say yes, in the
[36:09] Speaker 1: measure that humor is a function of intelligence, right, Humor
[36:12] Speaker 1: comes from the incongruous, and to grasp the incongruous as
[36:18] Speaker 1: incongruous is ipso facto. To appreciate it as funny. Now
[36:22] Speaker 1: there's a physiological reaction we call it laughter. So God
[36:26] Speaker 1: doesn't have a body, so God wouldn't have that, But
[36:29] Speaker 1: would he have humor. I'd say sure, in the measure
[36:31] Speaker 1: that He knows all things and therefore knows the incongruous
[36:35] Speaker 1: as the incongruous. And I think, I mean everyone witnesses
[36:38] Speaker 1: to that. How God plays like jokes on us in
[36:41] Speaker 1: a way. You know that he sort of playfully introduces
[36:45] Speaker 1: his will to us, but certainly that he appreciates incongruity,
[36:52] Speaker 1: and that's the essence of humor. Now would therefore everyone
[36:55] Speaker 1: get God's jokes? I don't know. I mean, you could
[36:58] Speaker 1: say it's objectively funny, but maybe we're not all subjectively
[37:03] Speaker 1: attuned adequately to it, just the way that you might say, well,
[37:06] Speaker 1: that's that thing's objectively beautiful, but not everyone could see
[37:09] Speaker 1: it as such. But no, I would say, sure God
[37:12] Speaker 1: has a sense of humor. I mean, whatever is good
[37:14] Speaker 1: and true and beautiful belongs pre eminently to God. So
[37:17] Speaker 1: if you recognize humor is a good thing, I don't
[37:19] Speaker 1: know who doesn't accept the most humorless people, then sure
[37:24] Speaker 1: God has a sense of humor.
[37:27] Speaker 2: Bishop that question reminds me of the last paragraph in GK.
[37:30] Speaker 2: Chestern's Orthodoxy, where he says, you know, you read the
[37:33] Speaker 2: four Gospels and you see Jesus displaying all sorts of emotions.
[37:37] Speaker 2: He's angry, he's sad, he's compassionate. Basically every human motion
[37:40] Speaker 2: is on display except humor. And people read that and
[37:44] Speaker 2: they think, oh, Jesus must be, you know, stern and dispassionate.
[37:48] Speaker 2: He says, no, his humor is so great that it's
[37:51] Speaker 2: been concealed. It's the one great part of God that
[37:55] Speaker 2: he thought was too good to reveal in the gospels
[37:59] Speaker 2: at least. But then I think of like our friend
[38:01] Speaker 2: Jonathan Rumy and the Chosen, and when you see a
[38:03] Speaker 2: depiction of Jesus displaying humor, there's something so attractive about that.
[38:08] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, No, I think that's absolutely right. That when
[38:11] Speaker 1: they say that Jesus ate and drank with people, I mean,
[38:13] Speaker 1: whoever eats and drinks with people without cracking a joke
[38:16] Speaker 1: and without appreciating We all just do that naturally. But also,
[38:19] Speaker 1: I would say Brandon maybe a bit pace chesterd in here.
[38:22] Speaker 1: I think the parables are filled with humor. We sort
[38:27] Speaker 1: to proclaim them in a very somber way at Mass,
[38:29] Speaker 1: But when you read those parables, they're usually based on
[38:32] Speaker 1: some little reversal or some funny juxtaposition or some unexpected turn.
[38:37] Speaker 1: I think a lot of them are very funny, and
[38:39] Speaker 1: that's of course part of the whole Jewish tradition that
[38:41] Speaker 1: Jesus came out of. So I don't know, I have
[38:43] Speaker 1: no quarrel saying that he must have been someone that laughed.
[38:49] Speaker 3: Well.
[38:49] Speaker 2: Before we wrap up here, I want to remind you
[38:51] Speaker 2: about a couple of new exciting initiatives at Word on Fire.
[38:55] Speaker 2: The first is the Rosary with Bishop Baron. We released
[38:58] Speaker 2: this about a month ago. We have produced audio and
[39:01] Speaker 2: video reflections of every mystery.
[39:04] Speaker 3: Of the Rosary.
[39:05] Speaker 2: You can pray all four sets of them with Bishop
[39:08] Speaker 2: Baron either on video through YouTube or on any podcasting service.
[39:13] Speaker 2: Just search the Rosary with Bishop Baron. You can download
[39:16] Speaker 2: them and listen to them whenever you'd like. Find out
[39:18] Speaker 2: more information at Wordonfire dot org slash Rosary. The second
[39:23] Speaker 2: is this brand new book that we are super excited about,
[39:26] Speaker 2: titled The Word on Fire Vatican two Collection. In many ways,
[39:30] Speaker 2: it's the culmination or the fruit of a lot of
[39:33] Speaker 2: what we've been discussing and focusing on the.
[39:34] Speaker 3: Past couple of years.
[39:36] Speaker 2: This revival and return to the great documents of Vatican
[39:40] Speaker 2: Two as sources of renewal in the Church. There's been
[39:44] Speaker 2: a lot of debate, a lot of discussion about Vatican Two,
[39:46] Speaker 2: but sadly, not a lot of people have actually read
[39:49] Speaker 2: the documents of Vatican Two, and we wanted to help
[39:51] Speaker 2: change that. So we've released this book which contains the
[39:54] Speaker 2: four major documents of Vatican Two, along with commentary from
[39:58] Speaker 2: Bishop Baron and.
[39:59] Speaker 3: The poet Conceal your Popes.
[40:01] Speaker 2: So you're getting to read these documents along with the
[40:05] Speaker 2: leaders of the church. So find out more at Wordonfire
[40:08] Speaker 2: dot org slash Vatican two, pick up your copy.
[40:12] Speaker 3: And start reading these great texts.
[40:14] Speaker 2: Well, thanks so much for listening and watching. We'll see
[40:16] Speaker 2: you next time on the Word on Fire Show.
[40:24] Speaker 1: Thanks so much for watching. If you enjoyed this video,
[40:27] Speaker 1: I invite you to share it and to subscribe to
[40:30] Speaker 1: my YouTube channel.

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