# Hearing the Voice of God - Bishop Barron's Daily Sermon

An episode of [Daily Sermons With Bishop Robert Barron](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6783446284), 12 Aug 2026, 32 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/72754553/hearing_the_voice_of_god.mp3



## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: The fish. Don't read it negatively. The fish is a
[0:02] Speaker 1: rescue operation. The fish rescues Jonah from drowning. So in
[0:06] Speaker 1: the midst of his crisis, God does what God typically
[0:10] Speaker 1: does in the Bible, is he sends rescue operations.
[0:20] Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Word on Fire Show. I'm Brandon Vatt,
[0:23] Speaker 2: the host and the senior publishing director at Word on Fire.
[0:27] Speaker 2: The Book of Jonah is one of the shortest books
[0:30] Speaker 2: in the Bible, yet it's packed with profound truths about
[0:34] Speaker 2: hearing and obeying the voice of God. We'll be discussing
[0:38] Speaker 2: that book today with Bishop Baron, who joins us from
[0:40] Speaker 2: our studio in Rochester, Minnesota. Bishop, good to see you.
[0:43] Speaker 1: Hey, Brandon, good to see you.
[0:46] Speaker 2: Lots of exciting things in your life recently. One of
[0:49] Speaker 2: them is the upcoming Catholic Schools Week, which I know
[0:52] Speaker 2: you really enjoy. Tell us I do what that's like
[0:55] Speaker 2: as a bishop, How do you celebrate Catholic Schools Week?
[0:58] Speaker 1: I go all of the nicies and I've got a
[1:00] Speaker 1: sprawling diocees. It goes from Wisconsin to South Dakota, all
[1:03] Speaker 1: across southern Minnesota, and I go to these very schools
[1:07] Speaker 1: all over the place. So next week is basically it's
[1:10] Speaker 1: like one big event every day, but it involved a
[1:12] Speaker 1: lot of driving. I'll drive maybe hour, hour and a
[1:15] Speaker 1: half and then there's a big mass with the kids,
[1:18] Speaker 1: usually followed by a lunch of some kind. But I
[1:20] Speaker 1: always get a kick out of it. Last year was
[1:23] Speaker 1: my first year here and I did I think four schools.
[1:26] Speaker 1: Maybe it's four or five this year. But every day
[1:28] Speaker 1: next week I'll be just in my car going out
[1:31] Speaker 1: to one of these places, but trying to get our
[1:33] Speaker 1: Catholic school kids fired up and focus them on the Lord.
[1:37] Speaker 1: I can't think of anything more important. So I did
[1:39] Speaker 1: a lot of office work last week. I had a
[1:41] Speaker 1: lot of meetings and all that, which are also very important,
[1:44] Speaker 1: But as a bishop, I can't think of anything more
[1:47] Speaker 1: important than reaching out to the Catholic school kids in
[1:50] Speaker 1: our diocese.
[1:52] Speaker 2: Another cool thing you recently did was another appearance on
[1:56] Speaker 2: our friend Jordan Peterson's podcast, You Guys had a long
[1:59] Speaker 2: two hour Rangey conversation. I'm not sure if that will
[2:03] Speaker 2: have aired by the time this episode does. If not,
[2:05] Speaker 2: we'll post it when it does. But tell us how
[2:07] Speaker 2: that conversation went.
[2:08] Speaker 1: Oh, it's always it's a joy. To talk to him,
[2:10] Speaker 1: and we talked mostly about the Bible and the spiritual life,
[2:13] Speaker 1: a little bit of philosophy. It's always a joy to
[2:17] Speaker 1: me with him. He reminds me in a way here
[2:19] Speaker 1: of Cardinal George. I used to say when I had
[2:21] Speaker 1: dinner with Cardinal George, it was like my doctoral defense.
[2:24] Speaker 1: You know, when you're talking to Jordan, you're operating at
[2:26] Speaker 1: a pretty high level intellectually, and he keeps you on
[2:30] Speaker 1: your toes. I mean, he's such a lively mind, as
[2:33] Speaker 1: thought about things so deeply and has such a rich
[2:36] Speaker 1: command of the intellectual tradition. So it's a joy. I
[2:40] Speaker 1: always get a kick out of talking to him. I'm
[2:42] Speaker 1: not sure when it's coming out. I don't think we
[2:44] Speaker 1: ever determined that, but probably sometime soon.
[2:48] Speaker 2: I just marvel at his stamina, even beyond his intellectual acumen.
[2:52] Speaker 2: Is he's got this upcoming tour. There's something like forty
[2:55] Speaker 2: or fifty events, and it's like two three hour lectures
[2:57] Speaker 2: at everyone. You told me for your conversation here. After
[3:01] Speaker 2: two hours you were pretty tired, but he's just ramping up,
[3:05] Speaker 2: ready to go for another couple hours.
[3:07] Speaker 1: Incredible energy. Incredible energy.
[3:11] Speaker 2: Well, i'd encourage listeners to also stick around to the
[3:15] Speaker 2: end of this episode. We have a special announcement about
[3:18] Speaker 2: the future of the Word on Fire Show, but we're
[3:20] Speaker 2: going to save that for the end of the episode.
[3:22] Speaker 2: For now, I want to turn to the Book of Jonah.
[3:25] Speaker 2: This is one of the most mysterious and interesting books
[3:28] Speaker 2: of the Old Testament. It's very short. It's only about
[3:31] Speaker 2: a thousand words. Most Bibles printed in about two or
[3:35] Speaker 2: three pages, so you can read it in one sitting,
[3:38] Speaker 2: but it's loaded with profound lessons. Bishop, first of all,
[3:42] Speaker 2: help us understand the background. What's the genre of the
[3:45] Speaker 2: Book of Jonah. What type of book is it?
[3:47] Speaker 1: Well, it's a prophetic book, so it's in the Jonah
[3:50] Speaker 1: is considered one of the minor profits in the Old Testament.
[3:53] Speaker 1: What's interesting about the Book of Jonah? So many things,
[3:55] Speaker 1: but one is unlike let's say, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel
[3:59] Speaker 1: and Zachariah and Hosea, it's not so much the sayings
[4:03] Speaker 1: of the prophet that matter. In fact, Jonah says very
[4:06] Speaker 1: very little in the story. It's about him. It's about
[4:11] Speaker 1: the prophet himself and his relationship to God. And so
[4:16] Speaker 1: it's a prophetic book, but of a particular nature. It's
[4:19] Speaker 1: the it's how we live out our spiritual lives and
[4:24] Speaker 1: how we respond to our own prophetic call. And mind you,
[4:28] Speaker 1: every baptized person's a prophet, So whenever you mentioned the prophets,
[4:34] Speaker 1: we should pay close attention because that's our identity. And
[4:37] Speaker 1: so we're meant to see in Jonah, all right, what
[4:40] Speaker 1: we're called to be and to do.
[4:42] Speaker 2: I thought we could just walk through the book and
[4:44] Speaker 2: get your insights on it. I know, as a bishop,
[4:47] Speaker 2: you've told me before this is one of the central
[4:49] Speaker 2: roles that you see bishops as having unpacking the word,
[4:53] Speaker 2: helping interpret it for God's people. So the story of
[4:57] Speaker 2: Jonah begins with the Lord speaking to Jonah. The Lord
[4:59] Speaker 2: says to him, set out for the great city of
[5:02] Speaker 2: Nineveh and preach against it, for their wickedness has come
[5:06] Speaker 2: to me. However, instead of going to Ninevah as the
[5:10] Speaker 2: Lord commanded, Jonah flees. He finds a ship going to Tarshis.
[5:14] Speaker 2: He pays the fare and goes down into it. As
[5:17] Speaker 2: the scripture says, away from the Lord, how should we
[5:21] Speaker 2: read these opening events?
[5:23] Speaker 1: Look how it begins. It's typical of the Bible. The
[5:26] Speaker 1: Bible never evalorizes our projects. I'm going to set out
[5:31] Speaker 1: and do something. Here is my plan, and think of
[5:34] Speaker 1: you know, the Greek philosophers and so many great heroic figures.
[5:37] Speaker 1: It's you know, my will, and look at our culture,
[5:40] Speaker 1: look at our culture. It's all me, me, mine, my
[5:43] Speaker 1: voice and my plan. And my Bible has no time
[5:47] Speaker 1: for that. It begins with a call that comes from outside, Jonah,
[5:53] Speaker 1: and and without preparation. It's not like, well, now, Jonah,
[5:58] Speaker 1: I'm going to be asking you eventually to do something,
[6:00] Speaker 1: and so let me give you a chance to respond.
[6:03] Speaker 1: None of that. It's God speaks, and that's the way
[6:07] Speaker 1: the Bible operates. I'm not in command here. My life
[6:11] Speaker 1: is not about me. It's not about my projects. It's
[6:15] Speaker 1: about what God wants to accomplish through me. Now that's
[6:19] Speaker 1: not oppressive or abusive. On the contrary, the more I
[6:23] Speaker 1: respond to what God wants me to be and to do,
[6:25] Speaker 1: the happier and more alive I'm going to be. But
[6:28] Speaker 1: we should attend to the very beginning of that. That's
[6:31] Speaker 1: how the voice of God comes, and we have to
[6:34] Speaker 1: obey it. And then you know, as you say that
[6:38] Speaker 1: the great truth is all right, Jonah go to Nineveh
[6:41] Speaker 1: and now ninev capital city of Israel's bitter enemy, Assyria.
[6:47] Speaker 1: So Jonah, get up and go a long way from home,
[6:51] Speaker 1: go into the capital, giant city of the enemy. People.
[6:56] Speaker 1: Don't go with anyone. As far as we can tell,
[6:58] Speaker 1: there's no one with him. And just go yourself into
[7:01] Speaker 1: this enemy city and begin proclaiming repentance. Attractive proposal, hardly,
[7:08] Speaker 1: it's extremely difficult proposal. Well, that's life in the NFL, right.
[7:16] Speaker 1: That's what the spiritual life is often like. Is God
[7:19] Speaker 1: is calling us to do something. Our conscience is summoning
[7:24] Speaker 1: us to do something that's difficult. And now everyone listening,
[7:28] Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about. There are certain moments
[7:31] Speaker 1: in your life when you hear the voice of God.
[7:34] Speaker 1: And I use conscience there on purpose because I'm with
[7:36] Speaker 1: John Henry Numan that that, for most of us, is
[7:39] Speaker 1: the most vivid experience of God's voice is the voice
[7:43] Speaker 1: of the conscience when it says, here's what you need
[7:46] Speaker 1: to do now? Is that typically easy? Know why? Because
[7:52] Speaker 1: we're sinners and we live in a sinful world, and
[7:54] Speaker 1: so what the conscience is telling us is often very
[7:58] Speaker 1: very challenge lenging. That's why I've always liked Merton's line.
[8:03] Speaker 1: You know, if you're facing several options, find the one
[8:06] Speaker 1: that's hardest. That's what God wants you to do most likely,
[8:09] Speaker 1: you know. So get up Jonah, go to on this
[8:13] Speaker 1: very difficult assignment. Of course, he goes the other way.
[8:17] Speaker 1: It's what most of us do. To be honest, most
[8:21] Speaker 1: of us sinners, when we feel and hear the voice
[8:23] Speaker 1: of conscience, we say, no, I'm going to take the
[8:27] Speaker 1: path of least resistance. I'm going to try to escape
[8:30] Speaker 1: from the summons of God. Because he stayed with conscience.
[8:33] Speaker 1: Brandon for a second, because I think it's illuminating here.
[8:36] Speaker 1: What's the one thing you can't escape from is the
[8:40] Speaker 1: voice of your conscience because it's in you. It's buried
[8:43] Speaker 1: deep inside of you. I can run away from your voice,
[8:46] Speaker 1: you know. I can run away from what you're asking
[8:48] Speaker 1: me to do. But I can't run away from the
[8:51] Speaker 1: voice of God, which is echoing within my own heart.
[8:54] Speaker 1: So he makes the mistake that we sinners all make.
[8:57] Speaker 1: We think we can avoid the press of God. The
[9:00] Speaker 1: point about the ship and Tarshish, I think is Nineveh
[9:05] Speaker 1: is east by land from where Jonah is. That's where
[9:08] Speaker 1: God wants him to go. Instead, he goes west by sea,
[9:11] Speaker 1: and he goes as far west by sea as you can.
[9:15] Speaker 1: Tarshish meant tim bucktoo, It meant I'm going to go
[9:18] Speaker 1: to the ends of the world. That's how far we
[9:22] Speaker 1: sinners try to run away from the press of God.
[9:26] Speaker 2: That last part about Jonah heading away from the Lord
[9:30] Speaker 2: in the opposite direction calls to mind Luke's gospel and
[9:33] Speaker 2: the story of the disciples on the road to Amaeis.
[9:36] Speaker 2: After Jesus's death, these disciples give up their crestfall in
[9:40] Speaker 2: they begin walking away from Jerusalem, but then they encounter
[9:43] Speaker 2: the Lord. They recognize him in the breaking of the bread,
[9:46] Speaker 2: and the Lord turns them around and has them moving
[9:49] Speaker 2: back toward Jerusalem in the correct direction. What are the
[9:52] Speaker 2: biblical authors, both of Jonah and Luke trying to teach us.
[9:55] Speaker 1: Here, Follow the Lord, not yourself. Follow the call of conscience.
[10:00] Speaker 1: It's not your own projects and plans. And when we
[10:04] Speaker 1: try to run away from God, it's kind of hopeless.
[10:07] Speaker 1: It's not going to work. Think of you know, Paul
[10:09] Speaker 1: Tillik read Palm of one point thirty nine. This way
[10:12] Speaker 1: I thought was very interesting, is you know I climb
[10:14] Speaker 1: to the heavens. You're there. I go to the sea's
[10:16] Speaker 1: furthest end. Even there, your right hand holds me up behind.
[10:19] Speaker 1: And before you besiege me, your hand ever laid upon me.
[10:21] Speaker 1: You know Lord, you search me, you know me. He
[10:25] Speaker 1: read it as like the sinner's lament. I'm trying to
[10:29] Speaker 1: get away from you. I go to the heavens, but
[10:30] Speaker 1: you're there. I go to the depth of the earth,
[10:33] Speaker 1: and even there you are. I go to the sea's
[10:35] Speaker 1: furthest end. Even there, your right hand holds me up
[10:38] Speaker 1: behind it before you besiege me. It's the sinner lamenting
[10:42] Speaker 1: that he can't escape from God. And the whole point is, well,
[10:46] Speaker 1: stop trying surrender to God, because it will make you
[10:50] Speaker 1: more fully alive. It's our sinful soul that dictates otherwise.
[10:56] Speaker 1: So those two stories in Mays and Jonah are making
[10:58] Speaker 1: a similar point.
[10:59] Speaker 2: There So Jonah turns away from God heads in the
[11:04] Speaker 2: wrong direction, and then we read God's response. It says
[11:07] Speaker 2: the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and
[11:11] Speaker 2: the storm was so great that the ship Jonah was
[11:13] Speaker 2: on was about to break up. Jonah goes down into
[11:17] Speaker 2: the hold of the ship to sleep, and as he rests.
[11:20] Speaker 2: The crew of the ship casts lots to discover on
[11:24] Speaker 2: whose account this evil has fallen upon, and the lot
[11:28] Speaker 2: falls on Jonah. He's responsible. And the men learn that
[11:32] Speaker 2: Jonah was fleeing from the Lord, and they say to him,
[11:35] Speaker 2: how could you do such a thing. How do we
[11:37] Speaker 2: read this turn of events? What are the storms signify here? Well?
[11:41] Speaker 1: Remember in the Bible, I've said this often, the Tohuvaboho,
[11:44] Speaker 1: the primal chaos at the beginning of creation, reasserts itself
[11:48] Speaker 1: throughout the Bible. Think of the flood of Noah, Think
[11:50] Speaker 1: of the red sea that has to be parted, Think
[11:53] Speaker 1: of Jesus walking on the tohu Aboho. Well, here's another
[11:57] Speaker 1: instance of it. Is the primal chaos re emerges. How
[12:02] Speaker 1: when we resist the call of God, so that the
[12:05] Speaker 1: Lord sent the storm, It's very important. How do we
[12:09] Speaker 1: read when bad things happen to us? You say, oh,
[12:12] Speaker 1: it's just dumb suffering, It's just this dumb thing that happened. Now,
[12:15] Speaker 1: I'm with John Paul the second. If people of faith
[12:17] Speaker 1: there are no coincidences, I mean everything. Jean Pierre de
[12:20] Speaker 1: Cosa said the same thing. Everything that is is either
[12:25] Speaker 1: directly or indirectly God's will, and so God sends the storm.
[12:30] Speaker 1: It's a kind of spiritual physics, isn't it. When you
[12:33] Speaker 1: resist God, storms will rise up within you and without you.
[12:40] Speaker 1: It will affect you adversely and lots of other people adversely.
[12:46] Speaker 1: You know, I just to say this. When I was
[12:47] Speaker 1: at the seminary, and these guys are discerning their vocation,
[12:51] Speaker 1: I would say, and partially with Joanah and mine. You
[12:54] Speaker 1: know you're discerning for yourself. That's true, like what if
[12:57] Speaker 1: the Lord want me to do? But your decision and
[13:00] Speaker 1: will have an enormous impact all around you. And if
[13:04] Speaker 1: you discern poorly, you resist what God wants you to do,
[13:09] Speaker 1: that's bad for you, and it's bad for all kinds
[13:13] Speaker 1: of people around you, right, because we're all interconnected. So
[13:16] Speaker 1: these innocent people aboard the ship, they didn't know as
[13:19] Speaker 1: Jonah was, but they're in danger too because he's resisting
[13:24] Speaker 1: the call of God. That's worth thinking about. I think
[13:27] Speaker 1: all of us sinners should think about. That is my
[13:29] Speaker 1: sin is never just my problem. In a way, it's
[13:33] Speaker 1: problem for everyone around me. And on the contrary, my goodness,
[13:38] Speaker 1: my virtue. When I do follow God's will and I
[13:41] Speaker 1: start radiating goodness around me. It's beneficial to others. Think
[13:47] Speaker 1: therey I mentioned Dante at the last broadcast Brandon, because
[13:52] Speaker 1: Dante has Satan buried in the ice, and he has
[13:55] Speaker 1: his two great wings right, and the wings are beating
[13:57] Speaker 1: because he's trying to fly, but he's stuck. But all
[14:00] Speaker 1: that does is it blows this awful cold air all
[14:04] Speaker 1: around hell. That's a great image. See what a sinner
[14:09] Speaker 1: is stuck in his own will and he's meant to fly,
[14:12] Speaker 1: that's where he has wings right. But all he since
[14:16] Speaker 1: he's in doing, is making the world around him colder.
[14:18] Speaker 1: He's affecting other people. Adversely, that's Jonah aboard the ship.
[14:24] Speaker 1: What's it like when you resist the voice of your conscience,
[14:27] Speaker 1: you don't do what your conscience tells you expect trouble.
[14:33] Speaker 2: Well, we get the trouble coming up next because the men,
[14:36] Speaker 2: as a result of Jonah being responsible for these storms,
[14:39] Speaker 2: throw him overboard. They hurl him into the sea and
[14:43] Speaker 2: a whale, although many biblical translations say a great fish,
[14:46] Speaker 2: great fish swallows Jonah and he's inside the whale's belly
[14:50] Speaker 2: for three days and three nights. What does this whole
[14:54] Speaker 2: thing mean? What does the whale represent First of.
[14:56] Speaker 1: All, I think it's the ubiquity of God. So Jonah
[14:59] Speaker 1: thinks I can scape from God. Well, of course you can't.
[15:01] Speaker 1: God commands the waves and commands the animals and the
[15:04] Speaker 1: fish and the sea and all that. So it's the
[15:07] Speaker 1: impossibility of escaping from God. But also the fish. Don't
[15:11] Speaker 1: read it negatively. The fish is a rescue operation. The
[15:13] Speaker 1: fish rescues Jonah from drowning. So in the midst of
[15:17] Speaker 1: his crisis, God does what God typically does in the Bible,
[15:21] Speaker 1: is he sends rescue operations. Think of the fish here
[15:23] Speaker 1: as a bit like Noah's ark. So there's the tohuva
[15:26] Speaker 1: Boh who comes back right the flood of Noah. And
[15:29] Speaker 1: God has Noah building arc So he sends the great
[15:32] Speaker 1: fish to rescue Jonah. Because what else is going on there?
[15:36] Speaker 1: Think of you know, it's it's impossible literally, but think
[15:39] Speaker 1: of it now and figuratively. Jonah inside of this fish
[15:43] Speaker 1: can't move, he has no control over his life. He's
[15:48] Speaker 1: utterly at the at the back and call the forces
[15:52] Speaker 1: beyond him. It's the it's the surrounding of the rebellious ego.
[15:59] Speaker 1: It's God's sends this constricting reality so that Jonah can't
[16:04] Speaker 1: go where he wants to go. He can't resist now
[16:08] Speaker 1: as he was experiencing that, it's hell. That's hell. And
[16:14] Speaker 1: I've dealt with lots of people in the course of
[16:16] Speaker 1: my ministry who are in a similar situation. They find
[16:18] Speaker 1: themselves in hell, that they're constricted, they're hemmed in, they're
[16:24] Speaker 1: out of control. How do you read that again, just
[16:28] Speaker 1: dumb suffering? Or do you read it as perhaps God's
[16:32] Speaker 1: way of limiting your own will and ego that he
[16:36] Speaker 1: might bring you where he wants you to go. Where's
[16:40] Speaker 1: the fish bring him to shore or he vomits him out,
[16:44] Speaker 1: and that's where God wants Jonah to be. So how
[16:48] Speaker 1: do you read your own depression, your own anxiety, your
[16:51] Speaker 1: own psychological crisis. Could it be a way of God
[16:56] Speaker 1: leading you where you don't want to go, but where
[16:58] Speaker 1: he wants you to go.
[17:01] Speaker 2: I want to stick with the whale for just another moment.
[17:05] Speaker 2: If you follow or interact with any of the contemporary atheist,
[17:09] Speaker 2: especially those in the New Atheist group, this is the
[17:12] Speaker 2: passage that they regularly regurgitate as showing how ridiculous religion is.
[17:16] Speaker 2: You actually believe that a man was inside of a
[17:19] Speaker 2: whale's belly for three days. Here's a quote from Bill Maher.
[17:23] Speaker 2: He's talked about the Jonah story so many times, countless times.
[17:26] Speaker 2: He says, if the Bible myth of Jonah in the
[17:29] Speaker 2: whale and the mother goose, myth of Jack and the
[17:31] Speaker 2: beanstock were switched at birth, so that Jack and the
[17:35] Speaker 2: beanstock were in the Bible, do you think any child
[17:38] Speaker 2: would notice? How do you respond to these kind of
[17:41] Speaker 2: mocking reactions to the story of Jonah.
[17:44] Speaker 1: Well, we shouldn't literalize the story of Jonah as though
[17:46] Speaker 1: it's a strict historical account, it's a theologically powerful tale.
[17:52] Speaker 1: The trouble I mentioned is with Peterson actually, because he's
[17:55] Speaker 1: been on with Bill Maher and they actually talked a
[17:56] Speaker 1: bit about Jonah, and I said, you know, Bill Maher
[17:59] Speaker 1: was raised as a cat, but it's a sign of
[18:00] Speaker 1: how poorly instructed he was and mars my generation. So
[18:04] Speaker 1: I get it. I mean, we were all poorly instructed
[18:06] Speaker 1: in the Bible. And what we've been talking about, Brandon,
[18:10] Speaker 1: is the whole point of that story. It's not to
[18:12] Speaker 1: get hung up on the literal truth of it. It's
[18:14] Speaker 1: to find these very powerful spiritual lessons in it. So no, no,
[18:20] Speaker 1: I'm not distracted by that, all right.
[18:24] Speaker 2: So, as you hinted, Jonah prays to the Lord asking
[18:27] Speaker 2: for deliverance, and then the whale spits him up on
[18:29] Speaker 2: the shore. And then God gives Jonah the same mission
[18:33] Speaker 2: that he had before, namely to go to Nineveh and
[18:35] Speaker 2: preach repentance. But this time Jonah obeys, and the people
[18:39] Speaker 2: of Ninevah turned to God. They proclaim a fast, They
[18:42] Speaker 2: put on sackcloth in a line that I know you
[18:45] Speaker 2: especially appreciate. The scriptures say that even the cattle and
[18:48] Speaker 2: the sheep fast and penitents. What's the takeaway from this
[18:51] Speaker 2: final turn of events.
[18:53] Speaker 1: Well, it's just a comic tale, all right. There's something
[18:55] Speaker 1: funny about this. Because Jonah resisted went the other way,
[18:58] Speaker 1: God brings them back. Jonah, you know, is reluctant throughout
[19:02] Speaker 1: this entire book. We'll get to the very end where
[19:05] Speaker 1: he's kind of difficult and reluctant the whole way through.
[19:08] Speaker 1: But God makes him the most successful preacher in the
[19:11] Speaker 1: history of the Bible. And I think I just read
[19:14] Speaker 1: this recently the Hebrew of the words he says to Ninevelle,
[19:18] Speaker 1: you know, a repent or in forty days you'll be destroyed.
[19:21] Speaker 1: It's some little like one line, and in Hebrew it's
[19:24] Speaker 1: like five words. That's all he says. That's all we
[19:27] Speaker 1: get out of him in terms of his prophetic proclamation.
[19:30] Speaker 1: But it has this completely overwhelming effect. Partially it's just
[19:35] Speaker 1: a it's a comic commentary, but it's it's also what
[19:39] Speaker 1: happens when you surrender to God's purposes. Watch life increasing
[19:46] Speaker 1: thirty sixteen, one hundredfold, you know, and watch us all
[19:49] Speaker 1: in the ministry of Jesus when he's calling people away
[19:53] Speaker 1: from their self preoccupation. When you turn your life to me,
[19:58] Speaker 1: look at in the stories of the multiplication of those
[20:00] Speaker 1: what do you have. I'll just this little nothing, give
[20:03] Speaker 1: it to me, and you'll find it multiplied. That's the
[20:06] Speaker 1: way it works in the spiritual order. So Jonah is
[20:09] Speaker 1: like despite himself, becomes the greatest prophetic preacher in the
[20:13] Speaker 1: history of the Bible. It's what happens when you surrender
[20:16] Speaker 1: properly to God.
[20:18] Speaker 2: I want to close with this. Notably, Jonah is the
[20:22] Speaker 2: only ancient prophet out of dozens and dozens with whom
[20:26] Speaker 2: Jesus identifies with in the Gospels. So in the Gospel
[20:30] Speaker 2: of Matthew. Jesus says, an evil and unfaithful generation seek
[20:34] Speaker 2: a sign, but no sign will be given it except
[20:36] Speaker 2: the sign of Jonah the Prophet. Just as Jonah was
[20:40] Speaker 2: in the belly of the whale three days and three nights,
[20:43] Speaker 2: so will the Son of Man be in the heart
[20:45] Speaker 2: of the earth three days and three nights. At the judgment.
[20:49] Speaker 2: The men of Nineveh will arise with this generation and
[20:52] Speaker 2: condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah.
[20:57] Speaker 2: And yet there is something greater than Jonah here. What
[21:00] Speaker 2: is Jesus getting at.
[21:02] Speaker 1: It's so powerful that we unpacked that over a week.
[21:06] Speaker 1: The only sign that we give is the sign of Jonah.
[21:09] Speaker 1: What did Jesus do he priest? Indeed healed, yes, indeed,
[21:14] Speaker 1: But what was his ultimate purpose? It was to go
[21:18] Speaker 1: into the very state of god forsakenness that we sinners
[21:22] Speaker 1: find ourselves in, not passing judgment from outside, but entering
[21:27] Speaker 1: into that condition. So Paul will say, on the cross,
[21:32] Speaker 1: Christ becomes sin. See, that's the sign of Jonah. It
[21:35] Speaker 1: seems to me, Jonah, the belly of the fish, is
[21:39] Speaker 1: in the state of rebellion against God. You know, he's
[21:43] Speaker 1: He's constricted, He's he's running away from God. That's where
[21:47] Speaker 1: Jesus goes. He goes to be with us in that condition,
[21:54] Speaker 1: Jonah being split up on the land, well, then is
[21:57] Speaker 1: compared to the resurrection. Jesus goes all the way down
[22:00] Speaker 1: and then he comes all the way up, bringing us
[22:03] Speaker 1: with him. So it's very powerful that the only sign
[22:07] Speaker 1: I'm going to give you, because I'm not here, he's saying,
[22:10] Speaker 1: to be like an earthly potentate, the sign of my
[22:15] Speaker 1: ministry is the sign of Jonah. I'm going deep down.
[22:19] Speaker 1: I'm going all the way down. I'm Frodo, going to Mordor.
[22:23] Speaker 1: I'm going to go all the way in to the
[22:26] Speaker 1: darkest country, because that's where the Father has sent me.
[22:29] Speaker 1: Right and as the people of Nineveh repented at the
[22:34] Speaker 1: preaching of Jonah, and he's implying the world we call
[22:38] Speaker 1: to repent at the preaching and the witness of Jesus,
[22:42] Speaker 1: who's Jonah in the full sense, you know. Yeah, it's
[22:46] Speaker 1: a very powerful remark of the Lord there.
[22:50] Speaker 2: Well, if you'd like to go even deeper on the
[22:53] Speaker 2: Book of Jonah, I encourage you to pick up this
[22:55] Speaker 2: book from Ward on Fire is one of the very
[22:57] Speaker 2: first ones we published. It's by Father Paul Murray and
[23:00] Speaker 2: it's titled A Journey with Jonah, A Spirituality of Bewilderment.
[23:04] Speaker 2: I think you can get it for just seven bucks.
[23:06] Speaker 2: I'll include a Lincoln the show notes. But Father Paul
[23:09] Speaker 2: unpacks this strange and beguiling story by drawing on literature,
[23:12] Speaker 2: art and commentators from across the Christian and Jewish traditions.
[23:17] Speaker 2: This book also includes a very rare two thousand and
[23:21] Speaker 2: three Lexio Divina by then Cardinal Joseph Ratsinger on the
[23:25] Speaker 2: Book of Jonah, published in English for the first time,
[23:28] Speaker 2: so you get reflections from Joseph Ratsinger an addition to
[23:31] Speaker 2: Father Paul Murray. So check out this book if you
[23:34] Speaker 2: want to go deeper on the Book of Jonah. Well,
[23:45] Speaker 2: it's time now for our question from one of our listeners.
[23:48] Speaker 2: Today we have one from Larry, who lives in Arkansas,
[23:51] Speaker 2: and he's asking about Jesus. Here's Larry's question.
[23:58] Speaker 3: Hi, Bishop Baron, my name is Larry from Bentonville, Arkansas.
[24:02] Speaker 3: My question is a two parter. First, why did Jesus
[24:05] Speaker 3: show up when he did roughly two thousand years ago
[24:08] Speaker 3: and not at a different point in time? And Secondly,
[24:12] Speaker 3: what would the world look like if he didn't show
[24:14] Speaker 3: up then, or if he showed up later or didn't
[24:17] Speaker 3: show up at all. Thank you and God bless.
[24:20] Speaker 1: Yeah the good questions. Here's a quick answer to the
[24:23] Speaker 1: first part. He came when the preparation was done. So
[24:30] Speaker 1: I think of the Old Testament as an elaborate preparation
[24:33] Speaker 1: for the incarnation. So God is preparing this ultimate rescue operation,
[24:38] Speaker 1: which is the incarnation, and he prepares for it over many,
[24:42] Speaker 1: many centuries, calling Abraham, and then the whole history of Israel,
[24:47] Speaker 1: involving covenant and Torah, prophecy, temple sacrifice, all of that
[24:54] Speaker 1: designed to prepare a people to receive his revelation. You
[25:00] Speaker 1: might say he came the minute he could, the minute
[25:04] Speaker 1: that preparation was complete. Think of the Virgin Mary here,
[25:08] Speaker 1: you know who acquiesces to the Angel. She's the embodiment
[25:11] Speaker 1: of Israel. She stands for all of Israel's great tradition
[25:16] Speaker 1: of longing and waiting. So he came when when they
[25:19] Speaker 1: were ready, when the human race was ready to receive him.
[25:24] Speaker 1: Can we imagine if the Lord had come when nobody
[25:27] Speaker 1: was really ready for him. There was no frame of reference,
[25:30] Speaker 1: There was no conceptual system, there was no history to
[25:35] Speaker 1: understand him. Well, maybe he it wouldn't have had an
[25:39] Speaker 1: impact because even with that long history, a lot of
[25:43] Speaker 1: people still didn't get him right. But you could say
[25:45] Speaker 1: he came when it was time, in the fullness of time.
[25:50] Speaker 1: You know what the world be like if he hadn't come. Well,
[25:53] Speaker 1: there was a long period, as I suggest, where the
[25:55] Speaker 1: Lord had not come, but God was preparing the human
[26:00] Speaker 1: Now that's up to God. I mean that he discerned,
[26:04] Speaker 1: all right, this is the moment when they're ready. But
[26:08] Speaker 1: if the Lord had not come, we wouldn't have found salvation.
[26:12] Speaker 1: But he has come, and so that's the word of
[26:14] Speaker 1: the church, is to declare of salvation to the nation.
[26:19] Speaker 2: Well, as we wrap up today's show, we have another
[26:21] Speaker 2: exciting book launching today. This one is from our imprint
[26:25] Speaker 2: of books for young kids. It's called Princesses of Heaven
[26:28] Speaker 2: by Fabiola Garza. This is a gorgeous picture book for
[26:32] Speaker 2: young girls ages three to eight, written and illustrated by
[26:36] Speaker 2: an incredibly talented Disney artist, Fabiola. This book shares the
[26:40] Speaker 2: stories of Saint Joan of Arc, Saint Josephine Bakita, Sant Katii,
[26:44] Speaker 2: Techa witha Saint, Terresulasiu and others, presenting each of these
[26:48] Speaker 2: women as princesses and Heaven with a shining crown. The
[26:52] Speaker 2: stories of faith, hope and love will inspire every girl
[26:56] Speaker 2: to become a saint. And I got to say I'll
[26:58] Speaker 2: include a link in the show notes on it and
[27:00] Speaker 2: view some of the artwork. This is one of the
[27:02] Speaker 2: most visually stunning books I think we've ever published, and
[27:07] Speaker 2: I think any young girl will enjoy it, so pick
[27:09] Speaker 2: it up. It's called Princesses of Heaven by Fabio La Garza. Finally,
[27:14] Speaker 2: as we close this episode, we have a bittersweet announcement
[27:18] Speaker 2: to make Bishop Baron and I started this podcast over
[27:22] Speaker 2: eight years ago. In fact, I remember the exact day.
[27:25] Speaker 2: It was September ninth, twenty fifteen, and I remember that
[27:28] Speaker 2: because it was the day after Bishop Baron was made
[27:31] Speaker 2: a bishop. So this podcast is as old as his episcopacy.
[27:35] Speaker 2: We've released four hundred and twenty seven episodes, so that's
[27:39] Speaker 2: over two hundred and fifty hours of fantastic conversation. I
[27:43] Speaker 2: still can't believe we've talked that much over the years,
[27:45] Speaker 2: and so many people have tuned in the podcast has
[27:48] Speaker 2: over thirty five million downloads and views. Now listen, We're
[27:52] Speaker 2: not ending the podcast, so don't worry about that. The
[27:55] Speaker 2: show will go on. But here's the bittersweet news. This
[27:58] Speaker 2: will be my final episode as host. Now, I'm not
[28:02] Speaker 2: leaving Word on Fire, but I'm stepping back from the
[28:05] Speaker 2: podcast so I can focus more exclusively on my role
[28:09] Speaker 2: leading Word on Fire's publishing department. Most of you know
[28:12] Speaker 2: how excited and deeply devoted I am to all the
[28:16] Speaker 2: books that we release, and we've got some very ambitious
[28:19] Speaker 2: projects coming down the pipeline, including thirty five new books
[28:23] Speaker 2: this year. We're about to release a new academic journal.
[28:26] Speaker 2: We've got conferences, we've got the completion of our Word
[28:29] Speaker 2: on Fire Bible series, and a whole lot more. So
[28:32] Speaker 2: I'm stepping back from the Word on Fire Show to
[28:34] Speaker 2: focus on all of that. However, I am very pleased
[28:38] Speaker 2: to announce that our new host for the Word on
[28:40] Speaker 2: Fire Show will be Matthew Patrusik. I know many of
[28:44] Speaker 2: you know him and already admire him. Matthew is the
[28:47] Speaker 2: senior director of the Word on Fire Institute. He's also
[28:50] Speaker 2: the professor of Catholic Ethics there Matthew's super bright, engaging,
[28:55] Speaker 2: culturally plugged in. He's authored a couple of great books
[28:58] Speaker 2: with Word on Fire, including Evangelization and Ideology and his
[29:02] Speaker 2: first book, Jordan Peterson, God and Christianity. He specializes in
[29:07] Speaker 2: moral philosophy, theology, politics, and the great Catholic intellectual tradition.
[29:12] Speaker 2: He'll be great and again I'm sure you'll love him
[29:14] Speaker 2: as the new host. But as I step down, I
[29:17] Speaker 2: want to thank all of you, all the listeners and
[29:19] Speaker 2: viewers for joining us over these many years. Your friendship,
[29:23] Speaker 2: your encouragement, your emails have all been deeply a source
[29:27] Speaker 2: of tremendous joy for me, especially those ones telling me
[29:30] Speaker 2: how this podcast has led me or a loved one
[29:33] Speaker 2: into the church. Nothing could mean more to us than that.
[29:36] Speaker 2: And Bishop, I want to thank you for being so
[29:39] Speaker 2: committed to this podcast over the years, for sharing so
[29:42] Speaker 2: many hundreds of hours of conversation with me. As you know,
[29:45] Speaker 2: I've enjoyed our discussions immensely, and I just wanted to
[29:49] Speaker 2: personally thank you and express my gratitude to you.
[29:51] Speaker 1: Oh we gosh, Brandon, I mean it's my gratitude to you.
[29:54] Speaker 1: This was your idea of this podcast. I remember when
[29:56] Speaker 1: you came to me and so let's have a podcast
[29:59] Speaker 1: kind of following up a things you've written. And I
[30:02] Speaker 1: thought right away it's a great idea. And I do
[30:03] Speaker 1: remember very vividly that first one, the day after I
[30:06] Speaker 1: was ordained a bishop. We recorded these in La recorded
[30:09] Speaker 1: these in Santa Barbara, now up here in Rochester. But
[30:13] Speaker 1: I mean, you have been such a marvelous presence, and
[30:17] Speaker 1: I don't think people they probably don't realize how much
[30:20] Speaker 1: work goes into preparing these. You're the one who bears
[30:23] Speaker 1: that great burden because you come up with the topics,
[30:26] Speaker 1: but then a whole series of questions observations based upon
[30:31] Speaker 1: reading and statistics and things you've found. And I'm always
[30:35] Speaker 1: amazed at how how much you accomplish. And as you suggested,
[30:40] Speaker 1: you know, thank god, you're not going anywhere. I mean,
[30:42] Speaker 1: you're such a pivotal player and horn on fire. But
[30:45] Speaker 1: it's because we ask you to do so many things,
[30:48] Speaker 1: and this podcast is a lot. And so I get
[30:51] Speaker 1: it that you know you want to say, look, I
[30:53] Speaker 1: want to focus really on the publishing side, but I've
[30:57] Speaker 1: enjoyed our conversations immensely, and I go all over the
[31:00] Speaker 1: world I hear about it, and they mentioned you more
[31:03] Speaker 1: than me. Typically, Oh they do, they do. They'll say,
[31:08] Speaker 1: I love listening to Brandon and you, you know, so
[31:12] Speaker 1: I'm grateful for all you've done and it's been a
[31:15] Speaker 1: marvelous contribution to the church. Man'll be great. I think
[31:18] Speaker 1: people will love his interaction. He'll be right here. That'll
[31:22] Speaker 1: be a difference because Matt is here in Rochester, so
[31:24] Speaker 1: we'll be able to film these kind of the two
[31:26] Speaker 1: of us talking in person. But you know, I've enjoyed
[31:30] Speaker 1: immensely our time together and just wish you well as
[31:33] Speaker 1: you continue helping the Word on Fire in a thousand ways.
[31:38] Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Bishop, and again thanks to everyone. I'm
[31:41] Speaker 2: not going anywhere, so you might see me popping up
[31:43] Speaker 2: here now on Word on Fire videos, but my time
[31:46] Speaker 2: of hosting has come to an end, and Matt will
[31:49] Speaker 2: capably step into those shoes well for the last time
[31:52] Speaker 2: for me. Thanks so much for watching and listening. We'll
[31:55] Speaker 2: see you next time on the Word on Fire Show.

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