# Bishop Barron – The Church Will Prevail: A Message of Faith and Hope

An episode of [Daily Sermons With Bishop Robert Barron](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6783446284), 7 Oct 2026, 14 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/74728401/the_church_prevails_bishop_barron_s_sunday_sermon.mp3



## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Peace be with you, friends, for this 21st Sunday of
[0:03] Speaker 1: Ordinary Time. The Church brings us once again with Jesus
[0:07] Speaker 1: and the disciples to Caesarea Philippi. And a famous question.
[0:13] Speaker 1: It's interesting to me, I've been preaching now for 40 years,
[0:15] Speaker 1: and how often this scene comes up liturgically. How often
[0:21] Speaker 1: the Church wants us to return to Caesarea Philippi and
[0:26] Speaker 1: to the question posed by Jesus. Now, the main characters
[0:29] Speaker 1: in this little scene would be Jesus and Peter. Whenever
[0:35] Speaker 1: the focus is on Peter, we're talking about ecclesiology. We're
[0:39] Speaker 1: talking about the study of the church. Peter is kind
[0:44] Speaker 1: of the symbol of the church. And so we're going
[0:47] Speaker 1: to learn something here very important about both Jesus and
[0:52] Speaker 1: the church. But we have to kind of unpack the
[0:55] Speaker 1: dynamics of this scene. endlessly fascinating. I find, like, now
[1:00] Speaker 1: over 2,000 years, the Church keeps returning to the scene
[1:03] Speaker 1: and drawing insight from it. So here's the first thing
[1:07] Speaker 1: to notice, everybody. Jesus turns to his disciples and says,
[1:12] Speaker 1: Who do people say that the Son of Man is?
[1:17] Speaker 1: I want you to see how peculiar that question is.
[1:22] Speaker 1: Think of any other religious figure or founder over the centuries.
[1:27] Speaker 1: The Buddha would never say to his followers, who do
[1:29] Speaker 1: people say that I am? No, he'd say, I've discovered
[1:33] Speaker 1: I'm enlightened under the Bodhi tree. I came to enlightenment.
[1:36] Speaker 1: I awakened from a kind of spiritual slumber, and I
[1:40] Speaker 1: have discerned a spiritual path that will help others toward enlightenment. Oh,
[1:45] Speaker 1: but who are you? Well, okay, I'm the Buddha. This
[1:47] Speaker 1: means I'm the one that's enlightened, that woke up. But
[1:50] Speaker 1: the focus is not on him personally. It's on his teaching, right? Moses,
[1:55] Speaker 1: can you imagine— Moses, you know, in front of his
[1:58] Speaker 1: people say, now, who do people say that I am?
[2:01] Speaker 1: What are you talking about? You're Moses, you're son of
[2:03] Speaker 1: the Hebrew parents, and you're raised in the Egyptian court,
[2:07] Speaker 1: and then you escaped, and now you've led your people
[2:09] Speaker 1: to freedom, and you're the giver of the law, and
[2:12] Speaker 1: you've been the leader of the people. Terrific. But the
[2:14] Speaker 1: focus isn't on you personally, on your nature. It's on
[2:18] Speaker 1: the Torah that came through you. It's through your leadership,
[2:21] Speaker 1: et cetera, right? Same of, you know, Confucius. Muhammad, you know, again,
[2:27] Speaker 1: you never say, what's the ontological makeup of Muhammad? Muslims
[2:32] Speaker 1: don't care about that. They care that he was given
[2:35] Speaker 1: this revelation, and he's the bearer of it and spokesman
[2:38] Speaker 1: for it, but they wouldn't look at his own being
[2:42] Speaker 1: as of great significance. Then there's Jesus. He doesn't say here,
[2:48] Speaker 1: what are they saying about my teaching? I gave the
[2:50] Speaker 1: Sermon on the Mount. What do they think? Good reaction?
[2:53] Speaker 1: How are the crowds taking it? Do they think I'm
[2:56] Speaker 1: saying true things? Those would be reasonable enough questions. I
[3:00] Speaker 1: could say to my audience, do you like these sermons
[3:04] Speaker 1: or the book I wrote? Did you appreciate that? But
[3:08] Speaker 1: what if I looked into this camera and I said
[3:12] Speaker 1: to all of you, who do you say that I am? Well,
[3:16] Speaker 1: you'd think I'd lost my mind, right? And you'd be right.
[3:19] Speaker 1: Then that's Jesus. Who do people say that the Son
[3:24] Speaker 1: of Man is? Notice something, too, that's interesting to me.
[3:27] Speaker 1: In the letters of Paul, so the earliest Christian literature
[3:31] Speaker 1: we have, the preaching and letters of Paul, there's hardly
[3:36] Speaker 1: a mention of Jesus' teaching. Occasional, little indirect references to it.
[3:41] Speaker 1: But there's an enormous interest in who he is. Look
[3:47] Speaker 1: at the early councils of the Church. They're not talking
[3:49] Speaker 1: about Jesus' teaching or his parables or the Sermon on
[3:52] Speaker 1: the Mount. But they're massively interested— in who he is.
[3:57] Speaker 1: All the talk about, you know, God from God, light
[3:59] Speaker 1: from light, true God from true God, nature, person, hypostasis,
[4:03] Speaker 1: all of this technical language to describe who he is. Because, everybody,
[4:10] Speaker 1: that's the heart of Christianity, and that's the focus of
[4:14] Speaker 1: the Church up and down the ages. Yes, Jesus' teaching,
[4:18] Speaker 1: of course we reverence it, but the fundamental question is,
[4:22] Speaker 1: who is he? The Church provides the answer to that
[4:29] Speaker 1: question up and down the ages. You want to know
[4:31] Speaker 1: the basic task of the Church? That's it. And it
[4:37] Speaker 1: comes from this peculiar question. Now, here's the next thing
[4:39] Speaker 1: we discern. Listen. Well, they replied, some say John the Baptist,
[4:44] Speaker 1: others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets. Well, now,
[4:47] Speaker 1: what are they doing? They're taking a public opinion poll.
[4:51] Speaker 1: And these disciples of Jesus would have been hearing from
[4:54] Speaker 1: the crowds, and I'm sure this is right. They would
[4:56] Speaker 1: have picked up these various theories. He's the reincarnation of
[5:01] Speaker 1: these great prophets. He's like John the Baptist come back
[5:04] Speaker 1: to life. All right. If today, in a more sophisticated way,
[5:09] Speaker 1: we took a public opinion poll and say, who is Jesus?
[5:12] Speaker 1: What do you say Jesus is? We get a lot
[5:15] Speaker 1: of Similar answers, a variety of other answers. Oh, he's
[5:18] Speaker 1: a religious founder. Oh, he's a moral teacher. Oh, he's
[5:21] Speaker 1: a mystic. Oh, he's a guru. Oh, he was a sage. Oh,
[5:24] Speaker 1: he was this poor guy killed by the Romans. Public
[5:27] Speaker 1: opinion would give you a range of impressions, right? So
[5:32] Speaker 1: then Jesus turns to the twelve. Okay. Yeah, that's what
[5:37] Speaker 1: the people are saying. Who do you say I am?
[5:41] Speaker 1: It's interesting now, isn't it, that no one speaks— He's
[5:45] Speaker 1: just turned to his inner circle, to the leaders of
[5:48] Speaker 1: his group, the elite. You might say the aristocrats following him.
[5:54] Speaker 1: They don't have an answer. Church is not a democracy
[5:58] Speaker 1: based upon public opinion, nor is it really an aristocracy
[6:02] Speaker 1: based upon the consensus of the elite. Who speaks up? Peter.
[6:10] Speaker 1: Peter speaks up. You are the Christ, the Son of
[6:14] Speaker 1: the living God. Peter knows who Jesus is, and that's
[6:23] Speaker 1: the most important thing to know. Peter speaks here now
[6:28] Speaker 1: with the authority of the church in knowing who Jesus is.
[6:35] Speaker 1: What's the job of the church, led by Peter and
[6:39] Speaker 1: his successors up and down the ages, to keep proclaiming
[6:43] Speaker 1: this truth? We know who he is. We know who
[6:48] Speaker 1: he is. We know who he is. Everything else follows
[6:52] Speaker 1: from that. I'm not saying that's the exclusive claim of
[6:54] Speaker 1: the Church, but it's the central claim of the Church.
[6:57] Speaker 1: It comes not from opinion, not even from the consensus
[7:01] Speaker 1: of the aristocracy. It comes mystically and by a special
[7:05] Speaker 1: charism to Peter and his successors. So listen to Jesus.
[7:12] Speaker 1: Jesus said, Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah, for
[7:17] Speaker 1: flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but
[7:21] Speaker 1: my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, Simon Bar-Jonah,
[7:28] Speaker 1: you are Peter. Kepha, he would have said in the Aramaic.
[7:33] Speaker 1: Kepha rendered Petros in Greek, Petrus in Latin, hence Peter
[7:40] Speaker 1: in English. Rock, rocky, right? And upon this rock, I
[7:46] Speaker 1: will build my church. What's the church built upon? Not
[7:51] Speaker 1: common consensus, not aristocratic consensus. It's based upon this mystical claim.
[7:58] Speaker 1: And it's Peter and his successors who are given the
[8:01] Speaker 1: prerogative of announcing this up and down the ages. That's
[8:06] Speaker 1: the rock. Now, you know, I think I told this
[8:10] Speaker 1: story before. It was when Pope Benedict XVI was elected,
[8:14] Speaker 1: and Cardinal George was there, my great mentor. And he
[8:20] Speaker 1: appears on the loggia of St. Peter's after the election,
[8:23] Speaker 1: and Benedict is there waving to the crowds. And he
[8:27] Speaker 1: has this weirdly pensive expression. And they asked him later
[8:30] Speaker 1: what it was. He said, well, I was thinking about
[8:33] Speaker 1: Rome and all the Roman emperors and where they lived
[8:36] Speaker 1: over on the Palatine Hill. And then I was wondering,
[8:40] Speaker 1: where are they? Where are the Roman emperors? emperors, where's
[8:44] Speaker 1: the successor of Julius Caesar or Augustus Caesar? And he said,
[8:48] Speaker 1: they're nowhere. That whole thing has turned to dust. But
[8:53] Speaker 1: the successor of Peter, mysteriously, he's right there, waving at
[8:58] Speaker 1: the crowd. What's Jesus saying? Upon this rock, I'll build
[9:04] Speaker 1: my church, and the gates of the netherworld will not
[9:07] Speaker 1: prevail against it. Look, everybody, every kingdom we can name
[9:15] Speaker 1: from the ancient world, you know, Greece and Rome and
[9:18] Speaker 1: Babylon and Egypt come up through the Middle Ages, come
[9:22] Speaker 1: into modern times, including, you know, Hitler's thousand-year Reich and
[9:27] Speaker 1: Stalin's communism. And where are they? Napoleon's empire. Where are they?
[9:33] Speaker 1: Where are they? They've all turned to dust. But weirdly—
[9:39] Speaker 1: We're still here. And I submit to you, everybody, that
[9:44] Speaker 1: is a weird proposition predicted here 2,000 years ago in
[9:51] Speaker 1: Caesarea Philippi. You were Peter, and upon this rock of
[9:55] Speaker 1: your confession of who I am, I will build the church.
[10:00] Speaker 1: that will prevail against even the power of hell. It's
[10:06] Speaker 1: not like I'm making something up. This is empirically verifiable. Now,
[10:12] Speaker 1: since Benedict, we've had two further popes. Now, Leo XIV, right,
[10:17] Speaker 1: gloriously reigning. the successor of Peter, who knows who Jesus is.
[10:23] Speaker 1: And upon that rock, the church rests. Now, here's just
[10:27] Speaker 1: the last thing. I got this from Fulton Sheen. I've
[10:31] Speaker 1: been reading a lot of him recently because we're about
[10:33] Speaker 1: to beatify him as I record these words. He talks
[10:37] Speaker 1: about the dual nature of this figure. Now, why? Well,
[10:41] Speaker 1: he's called Simon and Peter. even as Jesus addresses him,
[10:48] Speaker 1: blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, but I'm going
[10:52] Speaker 1: to give you a new name. Now, Kepha, Rocky, Petrus, Peter.
[10:57] Speaker 1: But throughout the New Testament, he's referred to by both names,
[11:00] Speaker 1: and sometimes both together, Simon, Peter. Well, Fulton Sheen's observation was,
[11:06] Speaker 1: it's a beautiful signal of, if you want, the dual
[11:09] Speaker 1: nature of the church, the Simon side of this man. unsure, unreliable, vacillating, impetuous.
[11:26] Speaker 1: At the moment of truth, someone who denies he even
[11:29] Speaker 1: knows Jesus, who, along with the other disciples, runs from him.
[11:36] Speaker 1: Think about that, everybody. Here's Jesus, right? The center of
[11:38] Speaker 1: their lives, their Lord and Messiah. But when the moment
[11:41] Speaker 1: of truth came, they all fled. Hmm. Simon, Simon. What's
[11:48] Speaker 1: that stand for? It stands for the fallen, flawed, imperfect, corrupt,
[11:54] Speaker 1: scandal-ridden side of the church. Try denying it. I mean,
[12:00] Speaker 1: open up any page of church history. What are you
[12:02] Speaker 1: going to find? Corruption in the church. Yes, even in
[12:05] Speaker 1: the top leadership. We had a great professor when I
[12:08] Speaker 1: was a kid at Mundelein Seminary, Father Charlie Meyer. And
[12:12] Speaker 1: Charlie had taught church history for the longest time. And
[12:15] Speaker 1: He kind of took a certain delight in sharing the
[12:17] Speaker 1: stories of the corrupt popes in the Middle Ages and
[12:21] Speaker 1: so on. Well, in a way, that was good because
[12:23] Speaker 1: it immunized me so that when, in my own lifetime,
[12:29] Speaker 1: great scandal broke out in the Church, I was like, well, yeah,
[12:33] Speaker 1: there's a Simon dimension to the Church. But Fulton Sheen
[12:38] Speaker 1: insists there's also this Petrine dimension, Peter, Petrus. Kepha, the rock.
[12:49] Speaker 1: In the measure that the Church, led by the successor
[12:52] Speaker 1: of Peter, knows who Jesus is and embodies that knowledge
[12:56] Speaker 1: in its sacramental life and the witness of its saints,
[13:00] Speaker 1: it remains the rock, permanent, absolute, resistant to any attempt
[13:09] Speaker 1: to undermine it. The Church has endured down to the ages.
[13:13] Speaker 1: against which the gates of hell will not prevail. Yep,
[13:17] Speaker 1: that church. Both Simon, yes, in his fallen nature, and Peter.
[13:25] Speaker 1: So go back, everybody, get out your Bibles, go back
[13:28] Speaker 1: to the scene, Matthew chapter 16. Visit with these disciples,
[13:33] Speaker 1: if you want, Caesarea Philippi. See the Lord Jesus right there,
[13:39] Speaker 1: turning toward you and saying, who do you say that
[13:43] Speaker 1: I am Everything depends upon the way you answer that question.
[13:47] Speaker 1: And thank God we have the guarantee of Peter and
[13:51] Speaker 1: his successors who know who Jesus is. And God bless you.

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