# How to Resist Anti-Christian Bigotry - Bishop Robert Barron Sermons

An episode of [Daily Sermons With Bishop Robert Barron](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6783446284), 28 Aug 2026, 33 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/73038754/how_to_resist_anti_christian_bigotry.mp3



## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Word on Fire Show.
[0:01] Speaker 2: I'm Matthew Patricsik, senior director of the Word on Fire
[0:04] Speaker 2: Institute and the host of the Word on Fire Show.
[0:06] Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us. How should we respond when
[0:09] Speaker 2: the culture becomes inhospitable, if not actively hostile to Christian values? Sadly,
[0:15] Speaker 2: biblical and natural law points of view on issues ranging
[0:19] Speaker 2: from the sanctity of human life in the womb to
[0:21] Speaker 2: the protection of children from gender ideologies, to the defense
[0:25] Speaker 2: of natural marriage, to the rejection of both IVF and euthanasia,
[0:29] Speaker 2: to religious freedom itself are now not welcome in many
[0:33] Speaker 2: of the institutions that constitute the economic, social, and cultural
[0:38] Speaker 2: core of our society, including corporations, public schools, higher education,
[0:42] Speaker 2: Silicon Valley, Hollywood, the legacy media, and even government entities themselves.
[0:49] Speaker 2: What can Christians do to resist being excluded from and
[0:52] Speaker 2: sometimes actively persecuted by these secular powerhouses. Just being a
[0:57] Speaker 2: follower of Christ require us to remain passive and rely
[1:00] Speaker 2: exclusively on prayer to hope for a better future. If,
[1:04] Speaker 2: on the other hand, push back against bigotry against Christianity
[1:08] Speaker 2: can in fact be morally justified, if not morally obligatory,
[1:11] Speaker 2: What forms of resistance are acceptable. What from a strategic
[1:16] Speaker 2: point of view will help Christians maintain our rightful place
[1:19] Speaker 2: within a pluralistic society. And how can we understand what
[1:23] Speaker 2: it means to resist those who undermine Christians in light
[1:26] Speaker 2: of Christ's command to love our enemies. Here to help
[1:29] Speaker 2: us think through these and related questions is Bishop Robert Barron. Oh, Bishop,
[1:44] Speaker 2: welcome back to the studio. It's good to see again.
[1:46] Speaker 3: Thanks, Matt. Always good to be with you.
[1:48] Speaker 2: So before we get into today's topic, which is on
[1:50] Speaker 2: how to resist anti Christian bigotry, I hear that you
[1:53] Speaker 2: found some time recently to see a movie.
[1:55] Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I.
[1:56] Speaker 4: Saw Matt Walsh's movie Am I Racist? And I thought
[2:00] Speaker 4: it was very funny, And I'll tell you I won't
[2:03] Speaker 4: give away too much, but something that I liked about
[2:05] Speaker 4: that movie is, you know, I've been outspoken opponent of
[2:07] Speaker 4: focism for a long time, and he goes after the
[2:10] Speaker 4: sort of dei establishment for the grifting that it does,
[2:13] Speaker 4: which is undoubtedly true. But what really struck me was,
[2:17] Speaker 4: here's a group of people who are emphasizing ideology that
[2:21] Speaker 4: locks white people into a permanent state of guilt and
[2:25] Speaker 4: people of color in a permanent state of victimization with
[2:28] Speaker 4: no real way forward. You know, it's a naming of
[2:31] Speaker 4: this of this problem, but in such a way that
[2:34] Speaker 4: it provides no constructive way out. So I thought these
[2:37] Speaker 4: were people that are, you know, certainly deserving of some skewering.
[2:42] Speaker 4: So I appreciated that in the movie.
[2:44] Speaker 2: Well, as we're recording this, the movie made it to
[2:46] Speaker 2: number five in the whole country.
[2:47] Speaker 1: Is really significant for a movie like that. Yeah, absolutely so.
[2:51] Speaker 2: Turning to today's topic, Bishop who recently wrote an article
[2:54] Speaker 2: in Newsweek on how Christians should actively resist those who
[2:59] Speaker 2: are se to undermine Christianity and what will turn to
[3:02] Speaker 2: that article and just a moment some of your arguments.
[3:05] Speaker 2: But first, as we usually do, let's get some definitions
[3:07] Speaker 2: down on the table. So, first, Bishop, what does it
[3:10] Speaker 2: mean to say that an individual or culture is bigoted
[3:13] Speaker 2: against Christianity or Christians?
[3:15] Speaker 1: For example?
[3:16] Speaker 2: How do we distinguish between skepticism of, or even a
[3:19] Speaker 2: disagreement with Christianity and bigotry itself?
[3:22] Speaker 4: Yeah, I suppose you could say bigotry is some kind
[3:24] Speaker 4: of you know, persistent and irrational prejudice against a person
[3:27] Speaker 4: or an institution, And that's always a bad thing. Whereas
[3:30] Speaker 4: you suggest correctly, I think have legitimate questions or concerns
[3:35] Speaker 4: about an ideology or a religion, fine, and to bring
[3:38] Speaker 4: that out into the public square for conversation.
[3:40] Speaker 3: I have zero problem with that.
[3:42] Speaker 4: My hero Thomas Aquinas did that all the time, you know,
[3:44] Speaker 4: he engaged that kind of question.
[3:46] Speaker 3: But bigotry's a different thing.
[3:48] Speaker 4: That's when you're dealing with this really irrational prejudice. And
[3:51] Speaker 4: I think, sadly a bit of anti religious bigoty is
[3:55] Speaker 4: on the rise in our country.
[3:56] Speaker 2: So connected to that, what would you say marks the
[3:58] Speaker 2: line between a culture that is in hospitable to Christians
[4:01] Speaker 2: and Christianity and one that has sort of crossed the
[4:04] Speaker 2: line and is active, actively persecuting Christians.
[4:07] Speaker 4: Yeah, I go back here to Cardinal George. You know,
[4:10] Speaker 4: my mentor that elements of our culture are inhospitable to Christianity,
[4:15] Speaker 4: I think is undeniable. In fact, a lot of the
[4:18] Speaker 4: high culture, the more elite culture, is at least that
[4:21] Speaker 4: inhospitable to it. Is there a line that's crossed into
[4:25] Speaker 4: sort of active persecution? And I think yes, is the
[4:28] Speaker 4: obvious answer to that. Is that happening here in some
[4:32] Speaker 4: of the legal moves that are being made or at
[4:34] Speaker 4: least proposed, I would say, yes, moving from you know,
[4:40] Speaker 4: mere inhospitability to attack, you know, and if the law
[4:45] Speaker 4: is being used as a means of aggression against Christian believers,
[4:49] Speaker 4: that we can't hold our beliefs in a public forum,
[4:53] Speaker 4: that they're being challenged legally, I think a certain line
[4:57] Speaker 4: there has been crossed. Now you want to keep going
[4:59] Speaker 4: on the spectrum, go to active persecution, which we've certainly
[5:02] Speaker 4: witnessed up and down the centuries and indeed in the
[5:05] Speaker 4: present day in different parts of the world. In our country, though,
[5:08] Speaker 4: I think you're right where maybe in some parts of
[5:11] Speaker 4: the culture on that line between the inhospitable and the
[5:15] Speaker 4: you know, a more direct attack.
[5:17] Speaker 1: What about the economic consequences.
[5:20] Speaker 2: There's many reports I know some people individually, for example,
[5:23] Speaker 2: who are have been fired or at least not promoted
[5:27] Speaker 2: in their places of work for holding really sort of
[5:29] Speaker 2: generic mainstream Christian beliefs. Is that something that you've been
[5:32] Speaker 2: aware of as well?
[5:33] Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's the religious liberty question, which you know,
[5:36] Speaker 4: I'm on the Committee of the Bishops for Religious Liberty
[5:39] Speaker 4: and we entertain those questions all the time, and remark
[5:43] Speaker 4: how they're being played out in the public sphere. It
[5:46] Speaker 4: was Richard John Neuhouse a long time ago, maybe twenty
[5:48] Speaker 4: five years ago, who said, you know, someday articulating basic
[5:52] Speaker 4: Christian moral convictions in the public arena will be seen
[5:55] Speaker 4: as hate speech. And when he said that twenty five
[5:57] Speaker 4: or so years ago, the general actually was, Oh, come on,
[6:01] Speaker 4: that's so exaggerated. No, No, that's never going to happen. Well,
[6:04] Speaker 4: of course that is happening. That is happening in many ways.
[6:06] Speaker 4: So that's a concern obviously. Now how do we engage that,
[6:11] Speaker 4: that's the wider question.
[6:12] Speaker 2: Before we move to your argument, let's just expand the
[6:15] Speaker 2: context just a little bit. Bishop, help us understand anti
[6:18] Speaker 2: Christian bigotry in a historical context. Have we ever as
[6:21] Speaker 2: a church lived in a time or place where we
[6:23] Speaker 2: haven't had to deal with some form of hostility?
[6:25] Speaker 1: Right?
[6:26] Speaker 4: I wasn't sure which direction your question was going, but
[6:27] Speaker 4: once it went that way, I think no, it's hard
[6:30] Speaker 4: to name a time when there wasn't some kind of
[6:32] Speaker 4: opposition to Christianity. Look from the very beginning, look in
[6:35] Speaker 4: the pages of the Acts of the Apostles, you can
[6:37] Speaker 4: see it. And the reason is Christianity is a public religion.
[6:41] Speaker 4: It's never been a matter of simply our private convictions.
[6:45] Speaker 4: It's not just like a hobby or a private conviction.
[6:48] Speaker 4: When you say Jesus Christ is Lord, which is the
[6:51] Speaker 4: basic evangelical proclamation, that's a public remark. You're saying, not Caesar,
[6:57] Speaker 4: but Jesus is Lord. Best to say, Jesus is the
[7:01] Speaker 4: one to whom your final allegiances do. Jesus is the
[7:04] Speaker 4: lord of your life in all aspects thereof. You can't
[7:09] Speaker 4: avoid that being a public assertion. Well, that means it
[7:14] Speaker 4: will be resisted in the public sphere. Look at when
[7:17] Speaker 4: Paul preaches, we hear in the next of the Apostles
[7:19] Speaker 4: there were often riots that broke out. Paul was imprisoned,
[7:23] Speaker 4: eventually killed. Almost all the first great Apostles and proclaimers
[7:27] Speaker 4: of the faith were killed. It's because Rome understood exactly
[7:32] Speaker 4: the implications of their preaching. They knew it was a
[7:34] Speaker 4: subversive message. Now move past the Apostolic age into the
[7:38] Speaker 4: first centuries, and you find not at every moment, but
[7:41] Speaker 4: you see waves of persecution in those first centuries, and
[7:45] Speaker 4: then you know you want to bring it up to
[7:47] Speaker 4: date the century with by far the most Christian martyrs
[7:51] Speaker 4: was the twentieth century, and we never think about that.
[7:54] Speaker 4: We think, oh, way back when there were martyrs. No, No, No,
[7:57] Speaker 4: twentieth century by far was the century of Christian martyrdom.
[8:02] Speaker 4: Does it continue in the twenty first century. Yes, absolutely
[8:07] Speaker 4: so to your question, I don't know if it's ever
[8:09] Speaker 4: been a time when we haven't met with some public opposition,
[8:12] Speaker 4: sometimes brutal.
[8:13] Speaker 1: But it can be better or worse.
[8:16] Speaker 3: Yeah. As I say, in the early.
[8:17] Speaker 4: Days, it went kind of in waves, and it depends
[8:21] Speaker 4: on the culture. Sometimes the culture is more agreeable to Christianity.
[8:24] Speaker 4: So maybe in the High Middle Ages, you know, when
[8:26] Speaker 4: the culture and the church were in much greater alignment. Okay,
[8:30] Speaker 4: those happen those moments, other moments when they fall out
[8:34] Speaker 4: of harmony, and then sometimes again Cardinal George, they become
[8:37] Speaker 4: so antipathetic to each other that we have martyrs.
[8:41] Speaker 3: So that's the spectrum that the Church is always on.
[8:43] Speaker 2: Let's now turn to your Newsweek article. So you originally
[8:46] Speaker 2: wrote it in response to the gross mockery of Christ
[8:49] Speaker 2: and the Last Supper that took place in the opening
[8:52] Speaker 2: ceremony to the twenty twenty four Olympics in Paris. But
[8:54] Speaker 2: your argument really is responding to a general resurgence of
[8:58] Speaker 2: anti Christian prejudice in the West. So let me read
[9:00] Speaker 2: one of the key passages in the article and then
[9:02] Speaker 2: ask you to expand on it. You write, Catholics affirm
[9:06] Speaker 2: the existence of God, which means we think there is
[9:08] Speaker 2: a transcendent purpose to human life. We affirm a stable
[9:13] Speaker 2: human nature, which means we don't think sex is a
[9:16] Speaker 2: social construct. And we hold to objective moral values, which
[9:19] Speaker 2: means we don't think living the good life is simply
[9:22] Speaker 2: a matter of personal choice. Chris, Critics of Christianity know this,
[9:26] Speaker 2: and that's why they deride us. They're telling us very
[9:29] Speaker 2: clearly who they are and whom they're against, and we
[9:32] Speaker 2: should believe them. So, Bishop, say more a little more
[9:35] Speaker 2: about why you emphasize there at the end we should
[9:38] Speaker 2: believe them. It's a heroine quality to those words. Why
[9:41] Speaker 2: did you choose them?
[9:42] Speaker 4: Well, that there really is a conflict at a fundamental
[9:46] Speaker 4: philosophical level. This is not a superficial conflict, but of
[9:50] Speaker 4: conflict of world views. What you find very often on
[9:53] Speaker 4: the stage today in the West is what I've called
[9:56] Speaker 4: the culture of self invention. For that to hold sway, well,
[9:59] Speaker 4: God has to be marginalized because God is the source
[10:02] Speaker 4: of transcendent value. Objective moral values have to be set
[10:05] Speaker 4: aside because if they're really objective, they condition my will.
[10:09] Speaker 4: I don't invent them. Religion is the great proponent of
[10:14] Speaker 4: these things which stand athwart the self invention culture. And they,
[10:19] Speaker 4: when I say they, I mean, let's say, the leaders
[10:21] Speaker 4: of the secular culture. They understand that they know that
[10:25] Speaker 4: many institutions that oppose them have fallen, but the Church,
[10:29] Speaker 4: in the measure that is true to itself, is still
[10:32] Speaker 4: their great opponent. And so on a regular basis, they
[10:34] Speaker 4: have to kind.
[10:35] Speaker 3: Of call us out.
[10:36] Speaker 4: They have to mock us, they have to belittle us,
[10:39] Speaker 4: they have to try through law to marginalize us. So
[10:43] Speaker 4: when I say we should believe them, they're announcing through
[10:46] Speaker 4: these actions and words that they know we stand to
[10:49] Speaker 4: thwart them.
[10:50] Speaker 3: Believe them.
[10:51] Speaker 4: They have correctly intuited that we're the most significant opponent. Okay,
[10:58] Speaker 4: you know, the Church, as we say, has long been
[11:01] Speaker 4: involved in these cultural struggles.
[11:03] Speaker 3: This is a version of it today.
[11:04] Speaker 2: And given what they say and how they act, these
[11:08] Speaker 2: leaders of secular culture anti who are against the Church,
[11:12] Speaker 2: what do you think their ultimate goal is with this
[11:14] Speaker 2: mockery and this marginalization, it's.
[11:16] Speaker 4: To eliminate the church. I mean, that is the ultimate goal.
[11:20] Speaker 4: First to kind of marginalize us, privatize us. That's been
[11:23] Speaker 4: a strategy for a long time, is to say sometimes
[11:27] Speaker 4: you know, cloaking themselves in the highuess language of the
[11:31] Speaker 4: Western democracies, like well, you know, we of course acknowledge
[11:34] Speaker 4: religious liberty, but that means you can whisper your convictions
[11:37] Speaker 4: among yourselves. So it's a marginalized, privatized version of Christianity.
[11:43] Speaker 4: But I would say the ultimate goal, yeah, of the
[11:45] Speaker 4: avatars of the self invention culture is to usher us
[11:48] Speaker 4: off the stage. And you know this well man, it's
[11:50] Speaker 4: a historian of philosophy is this is an old, old
[11:54] Speaker 4: conviction that goes back at least the beginning of the Enlightenment,
[11:57] Speaker 4: where there was this kind of secularist assumption that religion
[12:02] Speaker 4: will kind of naturally fade away. You see it in Soul,
[12:05] Speaker 4: and you see it in Mark certainly and many other
[12:08] Speaker 4: figures that you know what, will kind of slough off
[12:12] Speaker 4: the skin of religion as we move forward in our progress. Well,
[12:15] Speaker 4: that still haunts the minds of a lot of people
[12:17] Speaker 4: today religion will just fade away. Of course, the great
[12:21] Speaker 4: counter claim is, look, it hasn't happened, hasn't. They've been
[12:25] Speaker 4: saying this for hundreds of years now, Nietzsche the Death
[12:29] Speaker 4: of God, you know, sort and just line them up, Freud,
[12:33] Speaker 4: all confidently predicting the end of religion. And we haven't
[12:37] Speaker 4: gone away. So I mean, in a way, I'm not
[12:40] Speaker 4: so much concerned about that. That's an old, old hang
[12:42] Speaker 4: up of the secularist establishment, but it's proving itself false
[12:47] Speaker 4: all the time.
[12:48] Speaker 2: So the article ends by highlighting the surge of faithful
[12:51] Speaker 2: zeal at this past summer's National Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis.
[12:55] Speaker 2: And you conclude writing religious faith remains strong despite its
[12:59] Speaker 2: detracts in varied and sundry ways. They are trying to
[13:02] Speaker 2: mock and bully us into irrelevance. I say to my
[13:05] Speaker 2: fellow Christians, speak up, resist and get in their way. So, Bishop,
[13:10] Speaker 2: let's spend the rest of the conversation expanding on the
[13:13] Speaker 2: meaning and significance of your words. There, speak up, resist
[13:16] Speaker 2: and get in their way. So I'll turn to some
[13:19] Speaker 2: relevant biblical passages in a moment. First, Bishop, why do
[13:22] Speaker 2: you think the twenty twenty four Olympics represented a kind
[13:24] Speaker 2: of watershed moment for you, A line that sort of
[13:27] Speaker 2: let me to say that that triggered a broad response
[13:29] Speaker 2: to Christiana that originally prompted you writing this article.
[13:32] Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting, you know, because I didn't know about it.
[13:35] Speaker 4: I was out for dinner. It was a Friday night
[13:37] Speaker 4: and father Steve, you know, who's the CEO orfr He
[13:41] Speaker 4: and I are for dinner and he said, you see
[13:42] Speaker 4: what happened at the Olympics today, And I said, no,
[13:43] Speaker 4: I didn't hear about it. So he showed me the
[13:45] Speaker 4: video of the mockery the Last Supper and it just
[13:48] Speaker 4: kind of infuriated me. So I went home and just
[13:50] Speaker 4: did that kind of spontaneous, you know, off the top
[13:53] Speaker 4: of my head response, and then it got this enormous
[13:57] Speaker 4: I think six or seven million people you know, saw it.
[14:02] Speaker 3: So I didn't that moment think okay, this.
[14:04] Speaker 4: Is a watershed. But after I did that and I
[14:08] Speaker 4: saw the reaction to it, and then not because because
[14:10] Speaker 4: of my little video, but there was this worldwide outpouring,
[14:13] Speaker 4: I thought, yeah, maybe a line has been crossed, and
[14:16] Speaker 4: it might have been you know, the importance of the
[14:18] Speaker 4: Olympics in a city like Paris, this international stage where
[14:23] Speaker 4: this mockery of Christianity was taking place. It was a
[14:27] Speaker 4: prime example, let's say, of this general problem. But the
[14:30] Speaker 4: reaction to my little video, I think is telling. Obviously
[14:34] Speaker 4: I had critics and people that didn't like what I said,
[14:36] Speaker 4: but I'd say overwhelmingly people responded positively to it, and
[14:40] Speaker 4: what I heard most often was thank you for speaking up,
[14:43] Speaker 4: and I'm glad finally somebody spoke out against this stuff.
[14:47] Speaker 3: You know, I do think there has been.
[14:49] Speaker 4: A certain dereliction on the part of church leadership that
[14:52] Speaker 4: we haven't spoken out when we can and should when
[14:56] Speaker 4: the church is being mocked.
[14:58] Speaker 2: So what should we say up from to critics who
[15:01] Speaker 2: say that calling for resistance in the way that you
[15:04] Speaker 2: do in response to mackery is hyperbolic and disproportionate, and
[15:09] Speaker 2: that it's just sort of a self a self congratulatory,
[15:13] Speaker 2: self serving victimhood, I.
[15:15] Speaker 3: Don't think so.
[15:16] Speaker 4: You know, Gandhi is a long bit of hero of mine.
[15:20] Speaker 4: And go back to the famous film about Gandhi. How
[15:23] Speaker 4: forty years ago I heard her believe in the film,
[15:26] Speaker 4: someone comes up to Gandhi and says, I understand you
[15:28] Speaker 4: believe in passive resistance. And Gandhi said, I don't believe
[15:31] Speaker 4: in passive anything. And it's a very telling thing, is
[15:35] Speaker 4: Gandhi did not believe in passivity in the presence of evil.
[15:38] Speaker 4: On the contrary, what he proposed was a very active,
[15:42] Speaker 4: very provocative getting in the way of evil.
[15:47] Speaker 3: Now to do so non violently.
[15:50] Speaker 4: Indeed, indeed, and that was a revolutionary idea. Where'd he
[15:54] Speaker 4: learned it? He learned it from Matthew five, six and seven,
[15:58] Speaker 4: which young mohandas Gandhi when he came to London as
[16:01] Speaker 4: a law students, a very young man didn't know the
[16:03] Speaker 4: Christian Bible at all, read it and was he found
[16:07] Speaker 4: it breathtaking, the Sermon on the Mount. But it's not
[16:10] Speaker 4: passivity in the president of evil.
[16:12] Speaker 3: Uh huh.
[16:13] Speaker 4: Gandhi saw, and you know King followed him, King Martin Luther,
[16:18] Speaker 4: King who would have been raised on these texts as
[16:19] Speaker 4: a Christian. But Gandhi and they helped them to see,
[16:23] Speaker 4: Jesus is not advocating passivity in the present of evil. No,
[16:27] Speaker 4: it's a very provocative way to interrupt evil, but in
[16:32] Speaker 4: such a way as to draw the evil person back
[16:35] Speaker 4: into communion. With you is not to play with the
[16:38] Speaker 4: weapons of the world and just you deal with your
[16:40] Speaker 4: enemies aggressively, it's to draw them back into the beautiful community.
[16:45] Speaker 3: Preciselyly a kind of.
[16:47] Speaker 4: Shaming, a sort of mirroring back to the evil person
[16:50] Speaker 4: what he's doing. But Gandhi King, and I would say too,
[16:56] Speaker 4: another great hero of mind, John Paul the Second watch
[16:59] Speaker 4: him in Poland and nineteen seventy nine, didn't have one
[17:03] Speaker 4: weapon on him, used no weapon of the world whatsoever,
[17:06] Speaker 4: but in front of a million people, used language and
[17:10] Speaker 4: used ideas and use the provocative doctrines of Christianity to challenge,
[17:17] Speaker 4: to get in the face of an oppressive system. And
[17:21] Speaker 4: it so stirred the people that they chanted we want
[17:24] Speaker 4: God for fifteen minutes in the presence of the communist government.
[17:28] Speaker 3: Well, when that was happening.
[17:29] Speaker 4: We probably didn't quite get it, but you look in
[17:31] Speaker 4: retrospect that that was a revolution. Was he passive in
[17:36] Speaker 4: the face of communism? I mean, give me a break,
[17:39] Speaker 4: jump all the second he was. It was a provocative
[17:42] Speaker 4: act of nonviolence that was meant to call out and
[17:47] Speaker 4: get in the way of evil.
[17:50] Speaker 3: So that's what Christians are called to do. And we
[17:53] Speaker 3: could maybe do not have a show on this.
[17:54] Speaker 4: But when you unpack that language from Matthew, from the
[17:57] Speaker 4: Sermon on the Mount, you see this is not assivity.
[18:00] Speaker 4: It's a very very creative engagement of evil, and so
[18:06] Speaker 4: that's what Christians are called upon it.
[18:07] Speaker 2: Do let's stick into that in more detail at the
[18:09] Speaker 2: scriptural level as well, this distinction that resistance does not
[18:14] Speaker 2: mean passivity, but it also doesn't mean violence. So some
[18:17] Speaker 2: Christians may be heartening and inspired by your words and
[18:20] Speaker 2: yet still unclear on what resistance really means, especially in
[18:23] Speaker 2: response to this another biblical passage here, This is also
[18:26] Speaker 2: from Matthew.
[18:27] Speaker 1: This is Matthew five.
[18:28] Speaker 2: You have heard you know this well, Bishop, you have
[18:30] Speaker 2: heard that it was said an eye for an eye,
[18:32] Speaker 2: and a tooth for a tooth. But I say that
[18:33] Speaker 2: you offer no resistance to one who is evil. When
[18:37] Speaker 2: someone strikes you on your right cheek, you turned the
[18:39] Speaker 2: other one to him as well. So how do we
[18:41] Speaker 2: interpret what you've just said in light of our Lord's
[18:44] Speaker 2: words here?
[18:45] Speaker 4: Well, take the eye for an eye, So that's violence
[18:48] Speaker 4: is done to me. I do violence back, and he's saying,
[18:50] Speaker 4: that's not what I'm recommending. Don't resist in the worldly way,
[18:55] Speaker 4: don't resist the in the customary way. But look at
[18:58] Speaker 4: that's very interesting that passes about the turning cheek. In
[19:01] Speaker 4: Jesus' time, the left hand would have been considered unclean.
[19:04] Speaker 4: You never use it for any kind of social interaction.
[19:07] Speaker 4: So if you strike someone on the right cheek, that
[19:10] Speaker 4: means you striking them like this with the back of
[19:12] Speaker 4: your right hand. That was the gesture toward an inferior,
[19:16] Speaker 4: toward a slave or someone you considered an inferior. So
[19:19] Speaker 4: what's Jesus saying, someone strikes you on the right cheek,
[19:22] Speaker 4: what do you do?
[19:24] Speaker 3: Stand your ground and give them the other cheek?
[19:27] Speaker 4: In other words, what are you saying, I refuse to
[19:30] Speaker 4: cooperate with the world you're living in.
[19:33] Speaker 3: I refuse to live on these terms.
[19:35] Speaker 4: I'm not gonna I'm not going to punch you or
[19:38] Speaker 4: strike you back, but I'm not running away. I'm standing
[19:42] Speaker 4: my ground, and by turning the other cheek, I'm mirroring
[19:46] Speaker 4: back to you your own unjust aggression toward me. Now,
[19:51] Speaker 4: once you see that, now look at the method of Gandhi,
[19:53] Speaker 4: look at the method of King, look at the method
[19:55] Speaker 4: of John Paul the Second. It's exactly what they were doing.
[19:58] Speaker 4: An example I like to use with John is his
[20:01] Speaker 4: way back at the height of the fearful period when
[20:08] Speaker 4: there there was I remember it, very real fear that
[20:10] Speaker 4: the Russian troops are going to invade Poland and all that.
[20:12] Speaker 4: John Paul goes to Poland and General Yarlzelski maybe older
[20:16] Speaker 4: folks will remember him. He was a Polish general who
[20:20] Speaker 4: was running the government at the time, and he wore
[20:22] Speaker 4: these dark glasses, kind of a sinister looking figure, and
[20:26] Speaker 4: he welcomed John Paul at the airport when he arrived,
[20:28] Speaker 4: and he had his speech in his hand and it
[20:31] Speaker 4: was shaking as he read it to John Paul. He
[20:34] Speaker 4: was so nervous, and John Paul politely listened. And then
[20:38] Speaker 4: they say he took his own speech and he went
[20:41] Speaker 4: like this, He held it out to Yolzewski like I'm
[20:46] Speaker 4: not afraid of you. Wow, his speech wasn't And then
[20:48] Speaker 4: he calmly read his speech. Well, then watch what he
[20:51] Speaker 4: did in Poland. It was exactly this sort of King
[20:54] Speaker 4: Gandhi approach. Is it sight after sight? Even though they
[20:58] Speaker 4: were trying to block him, they were trying to dissuade people.
[21:01] Speaker 4: There's false informational but the people came out in huge numbers,
[21:04] Speaker 4: and he talked about God. He talked about human rights,
[21:07] Speaker 4: and he talked about human dignity. He talked about the
[21:09] Speaker 4: danger of tyranny, and he just on and on and on.
[21:12] Speaker 4: There's a say I heard about this actually from some
[21:14] Speaker 4: of the folks who were there. He's in Kraco, right
[21:18] Speaker 4: his great Archiepiscopal residence in Kroco, and he's leaning out
[21:22] Speaker 4: the window and of the residence and there's a huge
[21:26] Speaker 4: crowd out there, and he's speaking. He's speaking these provocative
[21:30] Speaker 4: things that were clearly anti Communists, were clearly you know,
[21:35] Speaker 4: and the Vatican officials were inside behind him, going doesn't
[21:40] Speaker 4: he know what he's doing?
[21:41] Speaker 3: Can someone stop him?
[21:43] Speaker 4: You know, because he wasn't playing the diplomatic game right well,
[21:46] Speaker 4: he knew exactly what he was doing, and by God,
[21:49] Speaker 4: it worked, you know. He so stirred the Polish people
[21:53] Speaker 4: non violently, not a shot was fired, you know, but
[21:57] Speaker 4: so stirred the Polish people, and the Solidarity movement immerged
[21:59] Speaker 4: out of that, which then kind of swept its way
[22:01] Speaker 4: across the Soviet block and eventually into the Soviet Union
[22:05] Speaker 4: itself and the Evil Empire. I remember when Ronald Reagan
[22:08] Speaker 4: called the evil Empire. It fell with barely a shot
[22:12] Speaker 4: being fired. So don't tell me that this kind of
[22:16] Speaker 4: resistance doesn't have real social effectiveness. I've seen it in
[22:20] Speaker 4: my own lifetime. So that's how Christians resist.
[22:24] Speaker 2: Sounds like one of the key elements here is a
[22:26] Speaker 2: very public display of courage.
[22:29] Speaker 1: Yeah, that we're not afraid of you.
[22:30] Speaker 2: Are you seeing any hope on the horizon that there
[22:33] Speaker 2: are resistance taking that form?
[22:35] Speaker 3: And what I am seeing, I don't know.
[22:38] Speaker 4: What I am seeing is a revival of interest in
[22:41] Speaker 4: religion that they tried. Go back now twenty five years roughly,
[22:45] Speaker 4: when the new atheists emerged, and there was just a
[22:48] Speaker 4: tempt I think it was all like a knockout punch.
[22:50] Speaker 3: Let's just give a knockout punch to religion. It didn't work.
[22:54] Speaker 3: It didn't work.
[22:55] Speaker 4: In fact, now I think in the popular culture you
[22:57] Speaker 4: see a lot of signs of deep interest in religion.
[23:02] Speaker 4: So no, no, and then so live it publicly, say it.
[23:06] Speaker 4: If someone's attacking the church.
[23:08] Speaker 3: Call it out. You know, now we have means.
[23:10] Speaker 4: God knows that social media has got a shadow side,
[23:12] Speaker 4: but you know we've got means now to publish something,
[23:15] Speaker 4: put something on X. You know, with this Paris Olympic thing,
[23:19] Speaker 4: people ask me. I said, write to the Olympic committee,
[23:21] Speaker 4: right to the French embassy.
[23:24] Speaker 3: Make your voice heard. Say we're not happy about this.
[23:26] Speaker 4: There are how many how many Christians around the world
[23:29] Speaker 4: and what like two billion or something. Well, we've got
[23:32] Speaker 4: a very powerful voice, and we learn how to use
[23:34] Speaker 4: it and we shouldn't acquiesce to these attempts to marginalize us.
[23:38] Speaker 2: So still at the within scripture, Matthew ends this chapter
[23:42] Speaker 2: of the Gospel with our Lord declaring, you've heard that
[23:44] Speaker 2: it was said you shall love your neighbor and hate
[23:46] Speaker 2: your enemy.
[23:47] Speaker 1: But I say to you, love your enemies.
[23:49] Speaker 2: And pray for those who persecute you, that you may
[23:51] Speaker 2: be children of your heavenly Father, For he makes his
[23:54] Speaker 2: son rise on the bad and the good, and causes
[23:56] Speaker 2: rain to fall on the just and unjust. So, Bishop,
[23:59] Speaker 2: in light of his passage, how can we interpret resistance
[24:02] Speaker 2: as being an act of love for the enemy.
[24:05] Speaker 4: No, and that's exactly what it is, because the way
[24:07] Speaker 4: we're describing it here, it's not. It was simply eye
[24:09] Speaker 4: for eye for tooth for truth. That's just like crude justice.
[24:12] Speaker 4: He might say, or if it's look, I am offended,
[24:15] Speaker 4: So I'm gonna get you back out of my anger
[24:17] Speaker 4: and I hate you. See that accomplish is nothing Gandhi's
[24:21] Speaker 4: famous line and I for an eye, yes, making the.
[24:23] Speaker 3: Whole world blind.
[24:26] Speaker 4: What we're describing is precisely an act of love. Love
[24:30] Speaker 4: means to will the good of the other. And so
[24:32] Speaker 4: what are you doing as you resist in this provocatively
[24:36] Speaker 4: nonviolent way. You're trying to draw the aggressive person back
[24:40] Speaker 4: into community. You're trying to help them see what they're
[24:46] Speaker 4: doing so as to move them to conversion. John Paul
[24:49] Speaker 4: the Second didn't hate General Yarlzelski. He was trying to
[24:52] Speaker 4: draw him back. King, you know, it's his great virtue.
[24:55] Speaker 4: King didn't hate the people who are persecuting black people
[25:00] Speaker 4: in the South. He was trying to He was trying
[25:02] Speaker 4: to love them back into community. So that's perfectly consistent
[25:06] Speaker 4: with Jesus sermon.
[25:08] Speaker 2: You know, we look out on the landscape and perhaps
[25:09] Speaker 2: we many of our audience have actually experienced this kind
[25:13] Speaker 2: of prejudices, kind of bigotry in director indirect ways, and
[25:16] Speaker 2: it can generate anger.
[25:18] Speaker 1: It can generate a very deep sense of anger. What
[25:21] Speaker 1: should we do with that anger.
[25:22] Speaker 2: Should we see anger as a problem or is anger
[25:25] Speaker 2: a sin?
[25:26] Speaker 1: Or is it something that can be channeled to a
[25:28] Speaker 1: productive end.
[25:29] Speaker 4: It's valuable in the measure that it's righteous, So righteous
[25:33] Speaker 4: or justified anger is something like outrage at injustice and
[25:37] Speaker 4: a desire to do something about it. So you know,
[25:41] Speaker 4: that's manifested a lot of the great saints. A quitness
[25:44] Speaker 4: will say the deadly sin of anger is a kind
[25:46] Speaker 4: of irrational overreaction. It's I think he puts, it's an
[25:50] Speaker 4: irrational desire for justice. So I've been hurt, but now
[25:55] Speaker 4: I'm going to destroy you. Since you hurt me, I'm
[25:58] Speaker 4: going to double hurt you. Well, that's anger is a
[26:01] Speaker 4: deadly sin, but we can I think. Look, John Paul,
[26:04] Speaker 4: Gandhi King were angry in the positive way. They were
[26:08] Speaker 4: angry at injustice. John Paul looking at what the communists
[26:12] Speaker 4: had done to his people. Of course he was angry.
[26:15] Speaker 4: But then there's a there's a positive called use of
[26:20] Speaker 4: that anger, you know, for good ends.
[26:23] Speaker 2: So you've already brought up the late Cardinal George several
[26:26] Speaker 2: times in Today's conversation, and one of his another one
[26:30] Speaker 2: of his great observations, he says the Church is expansive
[26:33] Speaker 2: enough to include both pacifists, that is, those who will
[26:36] Speaker 2: not resort to physical violence under any circumstances, and those
[26:39] Speaker 2: who believe physical force is morally justified in cases of
[26:42] Speaker 2: individual and communal self defense. So how Bishop, can we
[26:45] Speaker 2: coherently combine these two moral impulses into one coherent faith.
[26:49] Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's important distinction to make there.
[26:50] Speaker 4: So let's say, for example, this Paris Olympic, you know,
[26:53] Speaker 4: outrage terrible. It was a terrible thing, and I, in
[26:56] Speaker 4: my own little way, fought back and what I think
[26:58] Speaker 4: was an appropriate way. If I had organized some kind
[27:02] Speaker 4: of violent attack on the Paris Olympics and called in
[27:05] Speaker 4: an airstrike or something, well that's obviously ridiculous. So we
[27:09] Speaker 4: take a few more steps, though, to let's say a
[27:11] Speaker 4: nation state being invaded unjustly, or think if you'll put
[27:15] Speaker 4: it in a smaller context of a father of a
[27:18] Speaker 4: family and his kids are being attacked physically. He's not
[27:21] Speaker 4: going to stage a nonviolent social protest at that point,
[27:23] Speaker 4: he's going to take action. So the Church is always
[27:26] Speaker 4: recognized that in those extreme cases, yes, you can and
[27:30] Speaker 4: should defend your family, defend your country. That's why Carl
[27:34] Speaker 4: George said, you know, look, I'm glad not everyone's a passivist,
[27:37] Speaker 4: because I want there to be an army to defend
[27:39] Speaker 4: the country, I want there to be a police force
[27:41] Speaker 4: to defend the city, etc. But what's interesting to me
[27:46] Speaker 4: about his observation there is having said that it's also
[27:50] Speaker 4: good that there are some people in the church who
[27:52] Speaker 4: are pacifists, meaning those who are living even now, as
[27:57] Speaker 4: we will all live at the end of time, and
[27:59] Speaker 4: we will all live in the Esketon when perfect peace obtains.
[28:04] Speaker 4: And he compared pacifist to celibates, which I thought was
[28:09] Speaker 4: very interesting. He said, in the same way, I'm glad
[28:11] Speaker 4: there are celibates. Yeah, but I'm glad not everyone is
[28:14] Speaker 4: a celibate. We wouldn't get very far as a human race.
[28:17] Speaker 4: But that there are people like me and like him
[28:19] Speaker 4: who've taken a promise of celibacy. Our witnesses even now
[28:24] Speaker 4: of how we will all love in the Esketon. So
[28:27] Speaker 4: pacifists witness even now. And I think that's, to my mind,
[28:31] Speaker 4: the best way to deal with that issue. Celibacy. What
[28:34] Speaker 4: a terrible denial it no, no, no, it's an escatological sign.
[28:37] Speaker 3: How can there be any pacifists. Are they crazy? No,
[28:40] Speaker 3: They're an eschatological sign.
[28:42] Speaker 4: But I'm really glad that the vast majority of people
[28:44] Speaker 4: aren't celibate or pacifists.
[28:46] Speaker 3: And I think that's a fair.
[28:47] Speaker 1: Way to It's very fruitful and powerful enough.
[28:50] Speaker 3: Yeah, I've always found it that way.
[28:51] Speaker 1: So we moved towards a conclusion.
[28:53] Speaker 2: It was, as you know, the early Church theologian Tertullian
[28:56] Speaker 2: who said, the blood of the martyrs is the seed
[28:59] Speaker 2: of the Church. The question is is how should the
[29:02] Speaker 2: Church's long history of martyrs, those who gave and are
[29:05] Speaker 2: giving now their life for the faith, inform us on
[29:09] Speaker 2: what it means to defend the church from anti Christian bigotry.
[29:12] Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean Tertoalian was right, and it's been
[29:14] Speaker 4: proven right over the centuries. I said that when I
[29:17] Speaker 4: was filming in Na Mugungo, the site of the martyrm
[29:21] Speaker 4: of Charles Lawanga and his companions and this you know,
[29:24] Speaker 4: massive crowd descends upon that site every year, and the
[29:27] Speaker 4: scene was I looked at the camera and said, the
[29:29] Speaker 4: Tertalian said that the sea, the blood of martyrs the
[29:31] Speaker 4: seat of Christians.
[29:32] Speaker 3: Is that true?
[29:33] Speaker 4: Then I said, you tell me, and then the camera
[29:36] Speaker 4: panned back and there's this ocean of people.
[29:40] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's always been true.
[29:41] Speaker 4: And the martyrs, you know, are resisting non violently, but see,
[29:46] Speaker 4: by God they're resisting. It's important to see there's a
[29:49] Speaker 4: kind of imperialism in the martyrs, but it's not a
[29:52] Speaker 4: worldly imperialism, but it's a resistance to evil, and their
[29:56] Speaker 4: own death becomes the sign of the struggle, and it
[29:59] Speaker 4: mirror back to the aggressive or unjust person their aggression.
[30:04] Speaker 4: So that's always been true. That's the extreme case of it.
[30:06] Speaker 4: That's the extreme example of what we've been talking about.
[30:09] Speaker 2: And finally, Bishop, on the surface, it may seem like
[30:12] Speaker 2: the call to resist anti Christian forces in the culture
[30:16] Speaker 2: and the call to evangelize the culture are two different
[30:19] Speaker 2: tasks with two different, perhaps even opposing goals.
[30:21] Speaker 1: So how do we unite them coherently?
[30:24] Speaker 4: Yeah, No, to see the latter as a form of
[30:27] Speaker 4: the former, you know, that is a way of evangelizing.
[30:30] Speaker 4: So maybe go back to the Olympic thing, that little
[30:33] Speaker 4: video that was kind of a cret de curve on
[30:36] Speaker 4: my part.
[30:36] Speaker 3: It was just this, you know, I was angry.
[30:38] Speaker 4: I was, but that little video I think did have
[30:41] Speaker 4: evangelical power that it went out to so many people,
[30:44] Speaker 4: and it summoned Christians to a deeper I hope sense
[30:48] Speaker 4: of their.
[30:48] Speaker 3: Identity, maybe even reminded people.
[30:51] Speaker 4: I guess there are some of these Christians still around,
[30:54] Speaker 4: So I think that has very powerful evangelical import and
[30:57] Speaker 4: against under the rubric of love always we're loving the
[31:00] Speaker 4: culture again, Cardinal George, you can't evangelize a culture you
[31:04] Speaker 4: don't love. So we're loving the culture and we don't
[31:06] Speaker 4: want to condemn it. We want to draw it back
[31:09] Speaker 4: into a healthy stance.
[31:15] Speaker 1: Bishop, it's not time for our listener question.
[31:18] Speaker 3: Today.
[31:18] Speaker 2: We have Kira from Denver asking about how she can
[31:22] Speaker 2: share her faith in a family that does not practice
[31:25] Speaker 2: any religion at all.
[31:27] Speaker 5: Hello, Bishop Baron, my name is Kira. I'm from Denver
[31:31] Speaker 5: and i'm currently a catcha Cuman. My question is how
[31:35] Speaker 5: do I share my journey with my family and friends.
[31:38] Speaker 5: When I receive the Sacraments this spring, I will be
[31:41] Speaker 5: not only the only Catholic, but the only practicing Christian
[31:45] Speaker 5: in my life. Most of my family and friends are
[31:48] Speaker 5: against religion. I'll be grateful for your advice.
[31:52] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good question and a complicated one, but
[31:54] Speaker 4: you know, I would say here's my first instinct is
[31:57] Speaker 4: invite a lot of your family and friends to the
[32:00] Speaker 4: Easter vigil when you're received fully into the church, and
[32:03] Speaker 4: have him come. It's kind of a long ceremony, but
[32:07] Speaker 4: have him come to it, and then maybe elicit their
[32:10] Speaker 4: questions about the ceremony, what things meant. Maybe you could
[32:13] Speaker 4: explain a few of the finer points of the liturgy.
[32:17] Speaker 3: Use the liturgy itself.
[32:19] Speaker 4: As a route of access, as a way of maybe
[32:22] Speaker 4: opening a window or a door into the mystery of
[32:25] Speaker 4: the church.
[32:25] Speaker 3: But blessings on your journey.
[32:29] Speaker 2: Well, thank you Kira for reaching out to us. If
[32:31] Speaker 2: you would like to ask Bishop Baron a question for
[32:34] Speaker 2: a future Word on Fire show, please visit Askbishop Baron
[32:38] Speaker 2: dot com.
[32:39] Speaker 1: Let's ask Bishop Baron dot com and we'd love to
[32:42] Speaker 1: hear from you.
[32:43] Speaker 3: Bishop.
[32:43] Speaker 2: We've come to the end of another show. A fantastic
[32:46] Speaker 2: conversation is always.
[32:47] Speaker 3: Thank you, always a joy for me, Matt. Thanks that
[32:50] Speaker 3: does it.
[32:50] Speaker 1: For us today.
[32:51] Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us on the Word on Fire Show.
[32:53] Speaker 2: If you're interested in learning more about how Word on
[32:56] Speaker 2: Fire can help you grow closer to Christ, become a
[32:58] Speaker 2: better evangelist with and for others, and work for the
[33:01] Speaker 2: common Good. Consider joining the Word on Fire Institute. Check
[33:05] Speaker 2: us out at Institute dot Word on Fire dot org.
[33:08] Speaker 2: That's Institute dot Word on Fire dot org. We'll see
[33:12] Speaker 2: you next time.

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