# Bishop Barron – How the Virtues Can Help Us Navigate Today’s Toxic Online Culture

An episode of [Daily Sermons With Bishop Robert Barron](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6783446284), 11 Sep 2026, 37 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/74918837/how_the_virtues_help_us_respond_to_an_increasingly_vicious_online_culture.mp3



## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Welcome back to Word on Fire Show. I'm Matthew Petrusik,
[0:02] Speaker 1: Senior Director of the Word on Fire Institute and the
[0:04] Speaker 1: host of the Word on Fire Show. Thank you for
[0:06] Speaker 1: joining us. From Bishop Barron's very first social media post
[0:09] Speaker 1: close to 20 years ago, he and Word on Fire
[0:12] Speaker 1: as a whole have recognized that the online world is
[0:15] Speaker 1: a rough and tumble place. While most over the years
[0:19] Speaker 1: have interacted with our content with charity and respect, even
[0:22] Speaker 1: if they disagree, There's always been a gallery of trolls
[0:25] Speaker 1: who traffic in insults and profanity and are only interested
[0:28] Speaker 1: in taking potshots at the ministry rather than engaging in conversation.
[0:33] Speaker 1: And so it goes. That's just part of the price
[0:35] Speaker 1: of entry into the digital world, especially when evangelization is
[0:39] Speaker 1: your goal. The internet culture, however, seems to have taken
[0:42] Speaker 1: a dark turn recently. Whatever limited restraint people used to
[0:46] Speaker 1: show in their online interactions has seems to have evaporated
[0:49] Speaker 1: in a toxic cloud of mob-fueling and mob-fueled rage, replete
[0:54] Speaker 1: with distortions, deceptions, and sometimes even explicit calls for violence.
[1:00] Speaker 1: Exacerbated by the rise of the use of AI, bots,
[1:03] Speaker 1: and anonymous accounts often based in foreign countries, it is
[1:07] Speaker 1: increasingly difficult to know with whom you are engaging online
[1:10] Speaker 1: or what their motives are. And sadly, physical threats from
[1:14] Speaker 1: online sources are now also something we must take very seriously.
[1:19] Speaker 1: So how should we move forward from here? Is it
[1:22] Speaker 1: still possible to make evangelical headway in this increasingly noxious
[1:25] Speaker 1: online environment? If so, what principles should guide the way?
[1:30] Speaker 1: Here to discuss the challenges and possible solutions to the
[1:32] Speaker 1: current state of the online world is Bishop Robert Barron. Bishop,
[1:47] Speaker 1: welcome back to the studio.
[1:48] Speaker 2: Hey, Matt. Good to be with you again.
[1:49] Speaker 1: So today we're looking at the dark turn that internet
[1:53] Speaker 1: culture seems to have taken recently and what we can
[1:57] Speaker 1: do to constructively respond to it from a Catholic perspective.
[2:00] Speaker 1: Before we get into all that, what have you been
[2:01] Speaker 1: up to recently?
[2:03] Speaker 2: I'm not sure when this show will come out, but
[2:05] Speaker 2: as we record it, I'm getting ready for a little
[2:07] Speaker 2: celebration of my 40th anniversary as a priest. Kind of
[2:13] Speaker 2: snuck up on me. But some of the folks in
[2:15] Speaker 2: the Chancery are planning a cool trip up to St. Paul,
[2:21] Speaker 2: first to visit one of my favorite religious buildings in
[2:24] Speaker 2: the country, which is the Cathedral of St. Paul. And
[2:26] Speaker 2: we're going to visit there, have a tour, and then
[2:28] Speaker 2: I'm going to say Mass. And then we're getting on
[2:30] Speaker 2: the bus and we're going to the Twins game. So
[2:32] Speaker 2: the Twins are playing. I forget whom they're playing, but
[2:35] Speaker 2: I think it's like 1230 is a Twins game. So
[2:38] Speaker 2: a little liturgy and a little baseball game. in honor
[2:42] Speaker 2: of my 40th anniversary. So that's coming up as we
[2:44] Speaker 2: record these words.
[2:45] Speaker 1: That's beautiful. I remember you got to throw the first
[2:47] Speaker 1: pitch at a Twins game.
[2:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple years ago. That's great, yeah.
[2:50] Speaker 1: That's fantastic. And early congratulations to you, Bishop.
[2:53] Speaker 2: Well, thank you.
[2:54] Speaker 1: Well, let's now turn to a sad topic, a dark topic,
[2:58] Speaker 1: the viciousness of internet culture we're seeing in real time
[3:02] Speaker 1: sort of emerge. We're going to look at some of
[3:05] Speaker 1: the possible causes and then how we can respond to that.
[3:08] Speaker 1: But before we do, Bishop, take us back in time
[3:10] Speaker 1: to nearly 20 years ago when you just started posting online.
[3:16] Speaker 1: What was it like interacting with other people in the
[3:19] Speaker 1: online environment at that time?
[3:21] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it was confrontational, I suppose, would be
[3:24] Speaker 2: the right word. And I've told this story before when
[3:26] Speaker 2: I started with YouTube videos, and I knew nothing about them.
[3:30] Speaker 2: I just did these things. We put them up, and
[3:31] Speaker 2: I was happy when there were 200 people watching them.
[3:34] Speaker 2: And I discovered that you could comment. I didn't even
[3:37] Speaker 2: know you could do that. And the comments were typically
[3:40] Speaker 2: negative because people do come on to say, oh, how
[3:43] Speaker 2: wonderful that was, but not typically. They love to have
[3:46] Speaker 2: an argument. So at first, I was kind of put
[3:48] Speaker 2: off by it. I was surprised. But in those days,
[3:51] Speaker 2: I would engage people because they seemed like real people
[3:54] Speaker 2: who had a real concern or question. And I liked
[3:58] Speaker 2: the fact that I had a little traction. If they
[4:00] Speaker 2: raised a question, well, all right, I can respond to that.
[4:04] Speaker 2: If someone just hates religion, but they're off in the
[4:06] Speaker 2: corners of the culture, I never hear from them. I
[4:08] Speaker 2: have no traction. But hey, it gave me a little traction.
[4:12] Speaker 2: So I kind of enjoyed that. And I did a
[4:14] Speaker 2: lot of it in those days. And I do think
[4:16] Speaker 2: it's partially responsible for the success of Word on Fire. Absolutely.
[4:20] Speaker 2: That I was on there. We're putting new things up
[4:24] Speaker 2: a lot. And I was interacting with people. And I've
[4:26] Speaker 2: often said to them, colleagues who want to get in
[4:29] Speaker 2: that world, that's a good combination. You got to be
[4:31] Speaker 2: fresh and you got to be interactive.
[4:33] Speaker 1: Oh, it was totally innovative at the time. No one
[4:35] Speaker 1: else was there.
[4:35] Speaker 2: Right, right. So I think that was really a good thing.
[4:38] Speaker 2: And it was just less insane. You know, I think
[4:40] Speaker 2: there was, it was confrontational, but you didn't get the
[4:43] Speaker 2: sense you were dealing with insane people or with, or
[4:47] Speaker 2: I think we'll get to this with carefully orchestrated campaigns
[4:51] Speaker 2: of opposition. You didn't have that so much in the beginning.
[4:54] Speaker 2: So I didn't mind. I kind of, I kind of
[4:56] Speaker 2: enjoyed it actually getting into the, you know, it's the
[4:59] Speaker 2: French called the joie de combat, you know, the, the
[5:01] Speaker 2: joy of the, of the battle. And so I think
[5:04] Speaker 2: it was confrontational, but, but not insane.
[5:07] Speaker 1: What, what other platforms besides YouTube were you, were you
[5:09] Speaker 1: on when you first started?
[5:10] Speaker 2: The earliest days, YouTube's the one I remember.
[5:13] Speaker 1: Were you on Facebook?
[5:15] Speaker 2: Yeah, eventually, but that was a little while later. The
[5:18] Speaker 2: people at the Word on Fire staff would know better,
[5:20] Speaker 2: like the Instagram. You did Reddit. Yeah, I did Reddit.
[5:23] Speaker 2: That's right. That was fairly early. I've done three of
[5:26] Speaker 2: those maybe. Now, we could do another one. I don't
[5:29] Speaker 2: know if that's become dysfunctional. It probably has. But it
[5:32] Speaker 2: was fairly brutal. People don't know Reddit. They ask me anything.
[5:37] Speaker 2: You just go on there and I would field any question.
[5:42] Speaker 2: And then, of course, people could respond and You have
[5:44] Speaker 2: to wade through an awful lot of just obscenity and
[5:47] Speaker 2: stupidity and all that. But I still thought it was
[5:50] Speaker 2: a useful exercise, and I learned a lot. I did
[5:54] Speaker 2: some videos, I think, and articles about that, what I
[5:56] Speaker 2: learned from Reddit. I'm like, here– you could distill pretty
[5:59] Speaker 2: readily– here are the four or five major objections that
[6:03] Speaker 2: people have.
[6:05] Speaker 1: That was when the New Atheists were in there.
[6:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, right. And they had lots of devotees on the
[6:10] Speaker 2: ground in that space. So, no, I was willing to
[6:12] Speaker 2: do that. A lot of people said to me, why
[6:14] Speaker 2: are you wasting your time? And, you know, all this
[6:16] Speaker 2: is crazy people and it's so obscene and why. But
[6:19] Speaker 2: I just felt, you know, it was still a useful
[6:22] Speaker 2: exercise in those days.
[6:23] Speaker 1: It was the only place to reach those people.
[6:25] Speaker 2: Right. Yes. And I always felt that my model there
[6:29] Speaker 2: was my hero, Thomas Aquinas, who now admittedly a higher
[6:32] Speaker 2: level than Reddit, but I mean, would do what he
[6:35] Speaker 2: called quadlibital questions. Quadlibet means whatever you want, right? So
[6:40] Speaker 2: he would just open himself to whatever question you have.
[6:44] Speaker 2: And believe me, Aquinas did get irreverent questions and, you know,
[6:48] Speaker 2: kind of offbeat things and all that. He wasn't dealing,
[6:51] Speaker 2: I don't think, with the obscenity of Reddit, but I
[6:54] Speaker 2: took that as kind of my example of, all right,
[6:56] Speaker 2: you know, just ask me whatever you want.
[6:59] Speaker 1: Well, it's been close to 20 years since you started
[7:02] Speaker 1: doing that.
[7:02] Speaker 2: Of course. 2007 was the first YouTube video.
[7:05] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. That's right.
[7:06] Speaker 2: Yeah, so next year will be 20 years.
[7:08] Speaker 1: Many things have changed, including your schedule. You are exponentially
[7:12] Speaker 1: busier now with much less time to be able to
[7:14] Speaker 1: engage people online. But even to the extent that you
[7:16] Speaker 1: are able to engage in a limited way now, what
[7:19] Speaker 1: kinds of changes have have you seen over these close
[7:22] Speaker 1: to 20 years in internet culture?
[7:24] Speaker 2: One is just personally the nastiness level and the tendency
[7:28] Speaker 2: of these internet mobs to form. And that's been one
[7:31] Speaker 2: of the most disagreeable parts of it. You know, I've
[7:34] Speaker 2: talked a lot over the years about Rene Girard and
[7:37] Speaker 2: Girard's theory of scapegoating violence. And part of that is
[7:41] Speaker 2: this tendency of mobs to form. So when a scapegoat emerges,
[7:44] Speaker 2: there's tension within the community that one of the best
[7:47] Speaker 2: ways to create this ersatz culture sense of community is
[7:51] Speaker 2: we all come together in blaming, you know, this person
[7:55] Speaker 2: or that group. Well, mobs can happen easily enough in,
[7:59] Speaker 2: in the real world and the internet space, they can
[8:02] Speaker 2: happen like that because people are connected. And so there's,
[8:06] Speaker 2: you know, a video is emerged or someone said something
[8:09] Speaker 2: that we don't like. And then one person attacks and, oh, oh, oh,
[8:13] Speaker 2: I want to get on that. And all I have
[8:15] Speaker 2: to do is go, yeah, that's right. And boom. And
[8:18] Speaker 2: before you know it, these mobs on the internet can form,
[8:22] Speaker 2: which are really awful. And they participate in exactly the
[8:26] Speaker 2: Girardian dynamic. The people participating in the mobs get a
[8:31] Speaker 2: kind of sense of community, but it's so dysfunctional and
[8:34] Speaker 2: it'll fall apart like that. And it's mean spirited and
[8:37] Speaker 2: so on. But we so respond to scapegoating violence. We
[8:41] Speaker 2: love it. We love when a scapegoat emerges. And the internet,
[8:45] Speaker 2: you know, the devil loves that because it's perfect. It's
[8:49] Speaker 2: a perfect field, you know, for the Girardian dynamics to
[8:53] Speaker 2: play themselves out. So that's happened. But a second thing,
[8:57] Speaker 2: and I think in your opening remark, you made reference
[8:59] Speaker 2: to it, is the way These mobs are now kind
[9:03] Speaker 2: of orchestrated or even artificially created.
[9:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
[9:08] Speaker 2: So what can happen is maybe one person who's got
[9:12] Speaker 2: a little financial support, even support from high-level institutions, can
[9:18] Speaker 2: make a negative comment. Let's say there's a video of
[9:20] Speaker 2: mine that they don't like. Okay, negative comment. Now go
[9:23] Speaker 2: to your AI and say, make 1,000 comments. similar comments
[9:29] Speaker 2: to this. Well, AI, that's easy peasy. I mean, AI
[9:32] Speaker 2: can create a screenplay in about 10 seconds, right? So
[9:36] Speaker 2: make a thousand variations of this remark. And then through
[9:40] Speaker 2: bots and through burner accounts and these various things, suddenly, boom,
[9:44] Speaker 2: those thousand comments will appear. So the trouble is, people
[9:48] Speaker 2: will look at the video and then, oh, we all
[9:51] Speaker 2: love a car wreck, right? So, oh, what's going on
[9:53] Speaker 2: in there? Oh, there's negative comments. Oh, I see thousands.
[9:57] Speaker 2: But that could be one person who simply orchestrated these,
[10:00] Speaker 2: you know? That to me is so gross and dysfunctional.
[10:04] Speaker 2: And the end result, in my honest opinion, I wouldn't
[10:08] Speaker 2: have said this 20 years ago. 20 years ago, I
[10:09] Speaker 2: would have said, oh, comments, that's good. You know, get
[10:12] Speaker 2: in there and see what people are saying. And maybe
[10:13] Speaker 2: you can contribute. And, you know, if I were king
[10:17] Speaker 2: of the universe— One of my first moves would be
[10:20] Speaker 2: no more commenting on the internet. I think this has
[10:23] Speaker 2: just become fetid and dysfunctional. And it's so marked by
[10:32] Speaker 2: these artificially generated mobs that it just doesn't contribute. I
[10:38] Speaker 2: would say, look, watch a video. Fine, watch a video.
[10:41] Speaker 2: And then make up your own mind. Maybe don't pay
[10:45] Speaker 2: attention to all this nonsense in the comm boxes. I remember, man,
[10:49] Speaker 2: this is some years ago. I heard Joe Rogan say this,
[10:52] Speaker 2: like the most popular podcaster in the world, right? This
[10:55] Speaker 2: is some years ago. He said, oh, I never look
[10:57] Speaker 2: at comments. And I stopped reading comments years ago because
[11:01] Speaker 2: he was on to all these dynamics. Jordan Peterson, the
[11:03] Speaker 2: same thing. Oh, we never, never look at comments. It just,
[11:07] Speaker 2: you know, wears you down and it contributes nothing to
[11:10] Speaker 2: truth and goodness and So I'm in that position now, really.
[11:14] Speaker 2: I just think that's dysfunctional.
[11:15] Speaker 1: There's something really important for our audience to understand, and
[11:20] Speaker 1: it's happened to you, it's happening to you in real time,
[11:23] Speaker 1: is that on all social media platforms right now, it's
[11:26] Speaker 1: highly likely that That most of the comments are not
[11:30] Speaker 1: real people or one person working through all of these bots.
[11:33] Speaker 2: And I don't know if people know that. So maybe
[11:35] Speaker 2: this is too amortized a bit.
[11:36] Speaker 1: Awareness campaign.
[11:38] Speaker 2: That was a surprise to me when it was first
[11:40] Speaker 2: explained to me. And yeah, so be aware of that fact.
[11:44] Speaker 2: But I would say generally avoid comment boxes. Watch a video.
[11:50] Speaker 2: Listen to an argument. Make up your own mind about it.
[11:52] Speaker 2: And don't worry about these mobs. They're just following the
[11:56] Speaker 2: Girardian dynamic, which is nothing but bad.
[11:58] Speaker 1: And there's an additional element to the Girardian dynamic is
[12:01] Speaker 1: it's now monetized. So there's a financial incentive to get clicks,
[12:06] Speaker 1: to get eyeballs, and mobs do that well.
[12:09] Speaker 2: Which is terrible. When you think that I'm going to
[12:10] Speaker 2: artificially generate just all this negativity so that I can
[12:13] Speaker 2: make more money off of this thing. It's bad at
[12:16] Speaker 2: so many levels, right?
[12:17] Speaker 1: What about digging deeper into the anonymity of the internet
[12:21] Speaker 1: and social media? How do you see that affecting the
[12:24] Speaker 1: character of the online environment?
[12:26] Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's, you know, that's part of it. The
[12:28] Speaker 2: ease of making a negative comment. I've said this before,
[12:32] Speaker 2: but when I was a young guy, someone reads an article,
[12:36] Speaker 2: I don't like that article. I'm going to write a
[12:38] Speaker 2: letter to the editor. And so you got to sit
[12:40] Speaker 2: down at your, in those days, your typewriter and you
[12:42] Speaker 2: have to type out a letter. You got to find
[12:44] Speaker 2: an envelope and a stamp and, you know, what's the
[12:46] Speaker 2: address to that thing? And If you go through all
[12:48] Speaker 2: of that hassle and you send it successfully to the newspaper,
[12:52] Speaker 2: some editor or sub-editor will pick it up and, oh,
[12:55] Speaker 2: it's just a crazy rant and throw it away, right?
[12:57] Speaker 2: And maybe a handful of good articulate objections make their
[13:03] Speaker 2: way into a newspaper editorial page. Okay. That's fairly functional.
[13:08] Speaker 2: What's dysfunctional is, I don't like that. in my mom's
[13:13] Speaker 2: basement enter. And then, you know, 24, seven, three 65
[13:18] Speaker 2: all over the world. That comment is just there. Someone
[13:22] Speaker 2: else in his mom's basement sees it. You know, there's,
[13:26] Speaker 2: there's nothing that, that limits it. So that it might
[13:29] Speaker 2: even approach something like responsibility. Exactly. And then the anonymity
[13:34] Speaker 2: thing too. Well, I can just do this. And I,
[13:37] Speaker 2: there's with impunity, uh, At least with the letter of
[13:40] Speaker 2: the editor, you had to sign the darn thing so
[13:42] Speaker 2: they know who you are. So, no, that's contributed to
[13:46] Speaker 2: the dysfunction of it.
[13:48] Speaker 1: You know this figure well, the character of Thrasymachus in
[13:52] Speaker 1: Plato's Republic.
[13:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, in the Republic, right.
[13:54] Speaker 1: Who argues– and I think it's fair to say that
[13:57] Speaker 1: Socrates has some difficulty in encountering that. Look, the only
[14:01] Speaker 1: reason that people behave– is because they're scared of getting
[14:05] Speaker 1: caught and punished if they don't. What do you think
[14:08] Speaker 1: the state of the online world, especially as it's connected
[14:12] Speaker 1: to anonymity, says about Thrasymachus' argument? Is he actually right?
[14:16] Speaker 1: If people can get away with doing something malicious, they'll
[14:18] Speaker 1: do it?
[14:19] Speaker 2: Oh, no, I remember I read The Republic for the
[14:21] Speaker 2: first time in college, you know, and I always liked Thrasymachus,
[14:25] Speaker 2: meaning I don't agree with him, but he's like Machiavelli.
[14:32] Speaker 2: And is right about so much, meaning he was really
[14:35] Speaker 2: clear-eyed about how human beings actually behave. Now, he makes
[14:39] Speaker 2: the step to say, like, now, use that to get
[14:42] Speaker 2: what you— and all that. I don't approve of that, but,
[14:44] Speaker 2: I mean, a really clear-eyed assessor of the human condition. Well,
[14:48] Speaker 2: Thrasymachus is a bit like that, too. That, hey, come on,
[14:51] Speaker 2: don't give me all this justice nonsense and, you know,
[14:54] Speaker 2: doing the good. And here's how people actually behave, you know. And, sure,
[14:59] Speaker 2: I think he's largely right about that. And I'll speak
[15:01] Speaker 2: as a Christian. Plato didn't know about this, but we
[15:03] Speaker 2: know about original sin that has worked its way and
[15:07] Speaker 2: the effects of it has worked its way into our systems.
[15:10] Speaker 2: And so, yeah, a lot of us are like Thrasymachus.
[15:13] Speaker 2: You know, actually, go back to the ring of Gyges, right,
[15:16] Speaker 2: which comes in the— well, that's what Tolkien is playing with.
[15:19] Speaker 2: You know, if you had a ring, if this ring
[15:21] Speaker 2: of mine could render me invisible, what would I do?
[15:26] Speaker 2: What would I do? Would I do anything? I'll never
[15:28] Speaker 2: get caught. I'll murder, I'll rape, I'll steal, I'll do
[15:31] Speaker 2: anything because I'll never get caught. Would I do it?
[15:34] Speaker 2: And like Thrasymachus would say, well, yeah, of course you would.
[15:38] Speaker 2: Of course you would. Machiavelli, yeah, and you should. It
[15:41] Speaker 2: would give you a huge advantage. So is that the
[15:46] Speaker 2: anonymity of the internet? It's like we're in the ring
[15:48] Speaker 2: of Gyges. I can do all this stuff and well,
[15:50] Speaker 2: who even knows? Now, the internet world, God knows, you
[15:55] Speaker 2: can usually be found out in some ways, but at
[15:57] Speaker 2: least there's the illusion of anonymity that contributes to this negativity.
[16:03] Speaker 1: So again, maybe playing devil's advocate here, we could say, look,
[16:08] Speaker 1: I recognize that the dumpster fire is a popular term
[16:11] Speaker 1: that is the online world. It's full of misinformation. It's
[16:14] Speaker 1: full of disinformation lies. But the only way to counter
[16:17] Speaker 1: that is to be on the front lines and to
[16:21] Speaker 1: be commenting. And so if we were to shut down
[16:24] Speaker 1: the anonymity, if we were shut down the people's ability
[16:26] Speaker 1: to comment, then it would just get that much worse.
[16:28] Speaker 1: You see any merit to that argument?
[16:29] Speaker 2: Oh, maybe, you know, I, again, I think if I
[16:32] Speaker 2: were King of the universe, I would outlaw comments, but
[16:35] Speaker 2: I would say, I love having the forum that you
[16:38] Speaker 2: can put a video up. You can make an argument.
[16:41] Speaker 2: You can publicize your views pretty readily. That's all to
[16:45] Speaker 2: the good, you know? And if the comment thing could
[16:48] Speaker 2: be somehow controlled, now that's the trouble. It really can't be.
[16:51] Speaker 2: But no, and I want to emphasize too, Matt, people
[16:54] Speaker 2: might think I'm a hypocrite because I use social media
[16:57] Speaker 2: all the time. It is good. It is good. And heck,
[17:01] Speaker 2: I think we've used it for very good purposes. We're
[17:04] Speaker 2: on fire. And I also think this rise in affiliation
[17:10] Speaker 2: among young people You know, I think the internet outreach
[17:13] Speaker 2: of the churches has had a lot to do with that.
[17:15] Speaker 2: You know, that we've been able to reach younger people,
[17:18] Speaker 2: not just young, everyone now, in a way that we
[17:21] Speaker 2: couldn't otherwise. So, no, thank God for the internet, and
[17:24] Speaker 2: I've used it indeed. It's just that it's like anything.
[17:26] Speaker 2: You know, it's the devil. It's original sin. It's like
[17:30] Speaker 2: anything good can go bad, right? Everything good has a
[17:34] Speaker 2: shadow side, and it'll be used by the dark powers,
[17:37] Speaker 2: you know? So the same thing has happened to the
[17:39] Speaker 2: internet world. It's good— but it carries a shadow.
[17:42] Speaker 1: Well, let's now dig into the Catholic intellectual tradition and
[17:45] Speaker 1: moral tradition more deeply to look at some tools and
[17:48] Speaker 1: how we can move forward in this environment. So let's
[17:51] Speaker 1: look at the four cardinal virtues, temperance, fortitude, justice, and prudence. Bishop,
[17:56] Speaker 1: let's start with temperance. What is temperance and how might
[17:59] Speaker 1: we be able to apply it to the online world?
[18:02] Speaker 2: I would say it's a control of your passions so
[18:05] Speaker 2: that the achievement of justice can become possible. It holds
[18:09] Speaker 2: off internal threats to justice. So by justice here, I
[18:13] Speaker 2: mean kind of doing the right thing, like rendering to
[18:15] Speaker 2: each his due, right? But one of the obstacles to
[18:18] Speaker 2: that is my own interiority, my emotions and all that
[18:21] Speaker 2: are off kilter. And so my intemperance is preventing me
[18:27] Speaker 2: from doing the right thing. Think of, again, someone, I
[18:30] Speaker 2: know I shouldn't do this, but my passions are such
[18:34] Speaker 2: that I do it anyway. It's St. Paul, right? The
[18:37] Speaker 2: good that I would do. It's that that I don't do.
[18:39] Speaker 2: The evil that I would avoid. That's what I do.
[18:41] Speaker 2: Who will deliver me from this body of death? So
[18:43] Speaker 2: intemperance produces that problem. I think there's a lot of
[18:48] Speaker 2: intemperance on the Internet. You know the right thing. To
[18:53] Speaker 2: say something that's true and indeed loving— to someone versus
[18:57] Speaker 2: I'm so angry and I'm going to let that person know. Well,
[19:01] Speaker 2: that's an intemperate, you know, uh, frame of, of soul
[19:05] Speaker 2: that leads to trouble.
[19:07] Speaker 1: So we oftentimes also think about temperance with regard to,
[19:10] Speaker 1: you know, fasting from, from food or drink. Um, do
[19:13] Speaker 1: you think it's ever a good idea to completely fast
[19:15] Speaker 1: from going online?
[19:17] Speaker 2: Yes, I do. And, uh, You know, it's one of
[19:19] Speaker 2: the most interesting reforms in seminary education. This now goes
[19:23] Speaker 2: back about 20 years. It was Archbishop Chaput had a
[19:25] Speaker 2: lot to do with the reform of this whole thing
[19:28] Speaker 2: to have what we now call the propodutic year, right?
[19:30] Speaker 2: Before you even enter into seminary formation formally, there's a year,
[19:34] Speaker 2: and they often use the term of detox. You have
[19:37] Speaker 2: to detox a young person from this internet culture because
[19:42] Speaker 2: part of the propodutic, and I would say to a person,
[19:46] Speaker 2: because I talk to these young kids, what they remember
[19:49] Speaker 2: the most and appreciate the most about the propodutic year.
[19:52] Speaker 2: They study, they pray, and all this. But what they
[19:54] Speaker 2: remember most is they took my phone away and how
[19:58] Speaker 2: my whole life changed for the better. So yes, I
[20:01] Speaker 2: do think at times real abstention from it is a
[20:05] Speaker 2: good thing. to learn a more temperate approach to it.
[20:09] Speaker 2: So again, I'm not recommending just get rid of your
[20:11] Speaker 2: cell phone and let's go back to the, you know,
[20:13] Speaker 2: Luddite years of the 1970s. We got to find a
[20:16] Speaker 2: way to deal creatively and properly with these things. But yes,
[20:21] Speaker 2: something I've talked about during the last two lengths now, I've,
[20:25] Speaker 2: one of my resolutions is one day a week, put
[20:27] Speaker 2: the phone away. The whole day? Yeah. And I put
[20:29] Speaker 2: it in the Protocol with my assistant in case of
[20:33] Speaker 2: an emergency, how to reach me, you know. It could
[20:35] Speaker 2: be the Bishop of Diocese. You have to be in
[20:37] Speaker 2: touch with what's going on. But, yeah, I endeavored. I
[20:41] Speaker 2: didn't always work, but I endeavored one day a week.
[20:43] Speaker 2: Put the phone in a drawer. Just don't use it.
[20:45] Speaker 1: I think detox is the right word because it's now
[20:48] Speaker 1: been shown empirically that the devices and the content are addictive.
[20:53] Speaker 2: Absolutely. The machines are designed that way, and we know it.
[20:57] Speaker 2: We know it, and we all experience it. I'm addicted
[20:59] Speaker 2: to them. They're all designed to be that way. And
[21:03] Speaker 2: it's wickedly clever how that was done to us. And,
[21:08] Speaker 2: you know, I remember I didn't get my first cell
[21:10] Speaker 2: phone until I was 45. We all lived our lives
[21:15] Speaker 2: without them, and we all traveled. It's amazing to me now,
[21:18] Speaker 2: all the traveling I did, all these plane trips.
[21:20] Speaker 1: I don't know how I get lost all the time, right?
[21:21] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I relied on a pay phone, you know,
[21:25] Speaker 2: and finding a– My ride wasn't there. Well, I better
[21:28] Speaker 2: find a pay phone and call the number.
[21:32] Speaker 1: Or asking someone for directions.
[21:33] Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember vividly in the car and you have
[21:37] Speaker 2: a piece of paper like, okay, turn right at the
[21:39] Speaker 2: red light. And then when the big tree, is that
[21:41] Speaker 2: the big tree? You know? Yeah. Well, we all did it. Yeah. Well,
[21:44] Speaker 2: and also we were all better navigators in those days.
[21:47] Speaker 2: I was much better. Now I'm hopeless. I'm hopeless. In
[21:52] Speaker 2: my own diocese, like if I'm, this happens in my
[21:55] Speaker 2: diocese because it's, Much of it is rural. And I'll
[21:58] Speaker 2: be in a place sometimes that's so far away from
[21:59] Speaker 2: cell towers that I start to go home and it's
[22:02] Speaker 2: not working. I'm like, now what do I do? And
[22:06] Speaker 2: I start, where's the sun? Yeah, at east.
[22:09] Speaker 3: I am.
[22:10] Speaker 2: Or like, where's Orion? And so I'm hopeless at that.
[22:15] Speaker 2: I forget where I was going with that now. But
[22:18] Speaker 2: it's just living without them. I think is wise. I
[22:21] Speaker 2: think that is a temperate thing to do is have
[22:23] Speaker 2: some abstention from them.
[22:25] Speaker 1: How about then a fortitude? What is fortitude and how
[22:27] Speaker 1: might we be able to apply that virtue online?
[22:30] Speaker 2: Courage, you know, having the strength. And we'll see if
[22:32] Speaker 2: temperance holds off trouble coming from the inside, fortitude holds
[22:35] Speaker 2: off trouble from the outside. So I want to do
[22:37] Speaker 2: the right thing, but there's an external threat to me.
[22:40] Speaker 2: And what I need, therefore, is courage to face that down.
[22:44] Speaker 2: You know, are there threats coming from people online? Yeah.
[22:48] Speaker 2: You know, and I better fit in. And if I
[22:51] Speaker 2: say this, they'll get mad at me. And yeah, you
[22:54] Speaker 2: need courage. to say and do the right thing? Are
[22:57] Speaker 2: you always putting down what you really believe is true?
[22:59] Speaker 2: Or are you just contributing to a Girardian mob? Are
[23:04] Speaker 2: you responding in real love to someone? You're willing their good?
[23:09] Speaker 2: Or are you just acting out of, you know, your
[23:11] Speaker 2: own resentment? So, yeah, I know. And I think also
[23:14] Speaker 2: the courage to resist a mob. Mobs form. Well, we
[23:17] Speaker 2: love mobs. That's what Girardian understood in our fallen state.
[23:21] Speaker 2: We love mobs. It's like looking at a car wreck.
[23:23] Speaker 2: I mean, we're drawn to Some of these terrible things.
[23:27] Speaker 2: Mob is forming. I want to be part of that. Oh, yeah,
[23:29] Speaker 2: I read that too. Do I have the courage to
[23:33] Speaker 2: resist that? You know, and the story, by the way,
[23:36] Speaker 2: that Rene Girard loved was Jesus and the woman caught
[23:40] Speaker 2: in the act of adultery. It's a perfect example. The
[23:42] Speaker 2: mob is formed. And now, Lord, what's your judgment here?
[23:46] Speaker 2: How about the one among you without sin? What was
[23:49] Speaker 2: he doing there? He was breaking up the enthusiasm of
[23:52] Speaker 2: the mob, right? So do I have the courage to
[23:55] Speaker 2: resist that? That's where fortitude comes in.
[23:57] Speaker 1: What about the courage to post as yourself online? Do
[24:01] Speaker 1: you think that applies?
[24:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah. That would require fortitude, yeah.
[24:07] Speaker 1: How about then justice? You already briefly touched on justice,
[24:10] Speaker 1: but from a virtue perspective, what is justice and how
[24:12] Speaker 1: does that play out?
[24:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, to put it colloquially, I think doing the right thing.
[24:17] Speaker 2: I think that every moment of every day, you're faced
[24:21] Speaker 2: with that decision. Am I going to do the right
[24:23] Speaker 2: thing right now? What's the call of justice? And go
[24:26] Speaker 2: back to Plato, it's rendering to each his due, which means,
[24:29] Speaker 2: you know, I walk into a room and there's another
[24:31] Speaker 2: human being there and I'll say, good morning, how are you?
[24:33] Speaker 2: But what am I doing? It's an act of justice.
[24:35] Speaker 2: I'm rendering what's due, namely respect. If I walk in and,
[24:39] Speaker 2: you know, brush past somebody or they say hello to
[24:41] Speaker 2: me and I ignore them, that's an act of injustice.
[24:43] Speaker 2: That's very simple. You know, it's not world-changing, but it's
[24:46] Speaker 2: an act of injustice. Right now, we're both engaging in
[24:50] Speaker 2: an act of justice because we're we've committed to doing
[24:54] Speaker 2: this program, to record it. You've done requisite work. I've,
[24:59] Speaker 2: you know, done some preparation for it and we're now
[25:02] Speaker 2: executing that act. It's an act of justice. If I
[25:08] Speaker 2: were to say to you, no, I'm not going to
[25:09] Speaker 2: do it. I just don't feel like it. And I'm
[25:12] Speaker 2: not sick or anything. I just, I'm not going to
[25:13] Speaker 2: do it, you know, or you didn't prepare, you know,
[25:16] Speaker 2: you didn't prepare anything for this. Well, those would be
[25:18] Speaker 2: acts of injustice, right? So, I would put it that way.
[25:22] Speaker 2: It's rendering to each his due or doing the right thing. Now,
[25:25] Speaker 2: internet world, before you go send or enter, ask that question.
[25:33] Speaker 2: Am I doing the right thing here? Am I saying
[25:36] Speaker 2: what I think is true? Am I doing what I
[25:38] Speaker 2: think is right? Am I engaging here in an act
[25:41] Speaker 2: of love, which is willing to go to the other? Now,
[25:44] Speaker 2: it doesn't mean namby-pamby. If someone's saying something really stupid
[25:47] Speaker 2: and dangerous and you want to correct that, That's an
[25:50] Speaker 2: act of love. You're willing. They're good. But it's an
[25:54] Speaker 2: examination of conscience that's required. Am I really doing that?
[25:59] Speaker 2: I think it's a darn good question to ask before
[26:01] Speaker 2: you hit and maybe even have like a little sign
[26:04] Speaker 2: by your computer to remind you. I put justice or
[26:07] Speaker 2: love or something before I hit that button because we
[26:10] Speaker 2: do it so often out of the opposite of love
[26:13] Speaker 2: and justice, right? So I think that's a very relevant consideration.
[26:16] Speaker 1: Under this broad umbrella of justice, Bishop, can you speak
[26:19] Speaker 1: a little bit about the sins that particularly apply to
[26:21] Speaker 1: sins of speech?
[26:23] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[26:23] Speaker 1: A category I think is oftentimes completely elided. Can we
[26:27] Speaker 1: sin with what we say?
[26:28] Speaker 2: Of course. I mean, one, we talk about lying, telling
[26:30] Speaker 2: an untruth. But calumny is something that is defined in
[26:35] Speaker 2: the catechism of the Catholic Church. You know, when you
[26:38] Speaker 2: are— willingly, maliciously attacking someone's reputation, that you are trying
[26:43] Speaker 2: to destroy that person's reputation by telling a falsehood, that's calumny.
[26:48] Speaker 2: And that's a very serious sin. It's bearing false witness, right?
[26:52] Speaker 2: It's a violation of one of the Ten Commandments. And
[26:54] Speaker 2: it's a very serious sin. And it, you know, talking
[26:57] Speaker 2: about wounding, look at young people on the internet. So
[27:02] Speaker 2: we've been talking more about, you know, like people our age,
[27:05] Speaker 2: older people, but gosh, Young people, may I say, especially
[27:08] Speaker 2: young women, are deeply affected by what I call calumny,
[27:14] Speaker 2: which is the reputation destruction. And people love doing that.
[27:19] Speaker 2: And the internet provides a marvelous forum for that. You know,
[27:24] Speaker 2: I'm going to do everything I can to undermine you
[27:27] Speaker 2: and to wreck your reputation in the minds of others.
[27:32] Speaker 2: That's a really serious moral crime. And I think... Preachers
[27:37] Speaker 2: should preach about it. I think the church should talk
[27:39] Speaker 2: about it more. It's where a lot of sinning is
[27:42] Speaker 2: going on. And we can go to all the traditional
[27:44] Speaker 2: places we talk about sin. But here's a new one,
[27:47] Speaker 2: is the Internet has provided a terrible field for this
[27:52] Speaker 2: kind of moral dysfunction.
[27:54] Speaker 1: And it's not only just about what you say, but
[27:56] Speaker 1: also what you repost. I think that's oftentimes it because
[27:59] Speaker 1: it looks like an endorsement of what someone else has said.
[28:02] Speaker 2: Right. And if it's, I mean, it's always an examination
[28:04] Speaker 2: of conscience. Why am I doing this? I mean, can
[28:07] Speaker 2: you repost something you think, hey, that's really good. That's
[28:10] Speaker 2: insightful or that's interesting or that's helpful. And I want
[28:13] Speaker 2: more people to know about that. Great, great. But I'm
[28:16] Speaker 2: reposting that because I hate that person too. And I
[28:19] Speaker 2: want you to know what a jerk that person is.
[28:21] Speaker 2: And I'm doing everything I can to undermine his reputation.
[28:26] Speaker 2: That's serious moral business. And I don't think, I'll speak,
[28:30] Speaker 2: you know, accusing myself that we don't talk about that
[28:36] Speaker 2: sufficiently as moral leaders in the church.
[28:39] Speaker 1: What about, and this gets a little bit more nuanced,
[28:41] Speaker 1: then we'll move into prudence, but thinking something might be true,
[28:45] Speaker 1: but not necessarily knowing it's true and reposting it, or
[28:49] Speaker 1: knowing it's true, but not really having a good moral
[28:51] Speaker 1: reason to share it. Are those also potentially sins?
[28:55] Speaker 2: Right. Maybe it is true and you know it's true,
[28:57] Speaker 2: but why am I doing it? Am I doing it
[28:59] Speaker 2: out of love, willing the good of the other? Maybe
[29:03] Speaker 2: something is true and I want other people to know this.
[29:05] Speaker 2: It's an important thing. Okay, fine. But, okay, it's true,
[29:09] Speaker 2: but I'm going to repost it because I hate that
[29:11] Speaker 2: person and I want that truth about him or her
[29:14] Speaker 2: to be better known. You got to examine your conscience.
[29:18] Speaker 2: Why are you doing the things you're doing? Think of
[29:21] Speaker 2: the internet as a moral arena. I think that's important.
[29:24] Speaker 2: And Bishop, finally, prudence.
[29:26] Speaker 1: What is prudence and how does it apply to the
[29:28] Speaker 1: online world?
[29:29] Speaker 2: Well, if justice is kind of– I always think of
[29:31] Speaker 2: that as doing the right thing. Temperance protects you from
[29:33] Speaker 2: inner trouble, fortitude from outer trouble. Prudence is the virtue
[29:38] Speaker 2: that allows you practically to make justice a reality, to
[29:43] Speaker 2: make a more abstract principle into a reality. In this
[29:47] Speaker 2: particular situation, with this set of circumstances, what is the
[29:51] Speaker 2: right thing to do? So you could say, abstractly, justice
[29:54] Speaker 2: is doing the right thing, or rendered each is due,
[29:56] Speaker 2: or it's the mean between extremes, or whatever. Fine. But
[29:59] Speaker 2: all right, here and now, what is the right thing
[30:02] Speaker 2: to do? Prudence determines that. It's an intellectual virtue, Aquinas
[30:08] Speaker 2: will say, because it's based on memory. It's based on
[30:11] Speaker 2: how you've assessed similar situations. So it's a practical and
[30:17] Speaker 2: intellectual virtue. I would say the internet, it's, look, I've
[30:25] Speaker 2: been in these battles before. I've I've faced opposition before.
[30:31] Speaker 2: I've done kind of bad things before. So in this situation,
[30:37] Speaker 2: what's the right path? Maybe the right path, the prudential
[30:41] Speaker 2: thing is to say, delete. Maybe it's not enter, it's delete.
[30:49] Speaker 2: I know what I just wrote is so clever and
[30:52] Speaker 2: and it's so funny, and oh boy, oh boy. But
[30:56] Speaker 2: it's not the prudent thing for me to be doing
[30:58] Speaker 2: right now. It's not the path of justice that's open
[31:01] Speaker 2: for me right now. So no, I think that's, in
[31:06] Speaker 2: some ways, it's the queen of the virtues, because it's
[31:09] Speaker 2: where the rubber meets the road. It's where you concretize
[31:13] Speaker 2: your moral convictions. So again, I think the internet, it's
[31:18] Speaker 2: an arena, and the virtues... They're not obsolete. On the contrary,
[31:22] Speaker 2: those virtues are all at play in this.
[31:25] Speaker 1: And finally, Bishop, as the founder of Word on Fire,
[31:27] Speaker 1: and we do most of our work online, what's your
[31:30] Speaker 1: assessment of the future of the online world? Do we
[31:33] Speaker 1: have reason to hope, despair?
[31:35] Speaker 2: No, it's a good question. I don't know if I
[31:37] Speaker 2: can be that good at predicting. You know, look, you're
[31:40] Speaker 2: never going to put it back in the tube. I mean,
[31:43] Speaker 2: this world exists, and it'll always exist in some form. Yeah.
[31:47] Speaker 2: You know, my hope, maybe it's more of a hope
[31:49] Speaker 2: than a prediction, is that people will see just how
[31:53] Speaker 2: awful the negative side has become and they'll find a
[31:57] Speaker 2: way to push past it. Maybe through some disciplining and,
[32:02] Speaker 2: I don't know, not censoring, but maybe a self-censoring will
[32:06] Speaker 2: kick in when people realize how dysfunctional. You know, maybe
[32:11] Speaker 2: we can, in our own small way, contribute to it.
[32:14] Speaker 2: The more people know about these comment boxes and where
[32:18] Speaker 2: all that's coming from. Maybe they'll say like, oh yeah,
[32:21] Speaker 2: I'm not going to get in that world. I'm not
[32:23] Speaker 2: going to be part of that mob or I'm not
[32:24] Speaker 2: going to pay attention to that. If more people could
[32:27] Speaker 2: do the Joe Rogan thing or Jordan Peterson and just say,
[32:30] Speaker 2: I'm done with comments. I'm not playing that. Peterson used
[32:34] Speaker 2: a line. I've used it many times since. He said,
[32:37] Speaker 2: oh yeah, the chattering of demons. You go into those
[32:40] Speaker 2: comment boxes, it's the chattering of demons. don't be seduced
[32:45] Speaker 2: by them. Don't, don't be drawn into it because it's,
[32:48] Speaker 2: it's a very apt comparison because, you know, Oh my God,
[32:53] Speaker 2: what are they saying? What are they all like? Oh,
[32:56] Speaker 2: I got to respond to that.
[32:58] Speaker 1: I got to respond.
[32:59] Speaker 2: Yeah. Right. And so then you're part of the chattering
[33:02] Speaker 2: of demons. Ignore them. You know that I'm a big
[33:06] Speaker 2: Simpsons fan. Remember years ago, the episode when these great
[33:10] Speaker 2: advertising figures came to life in, in Springfield and they started,
[33:14] Speaker 2: And the answer was, don't look at them. Oh, my God. Oh, no.
[33:19] Speaker 2: And then they were terrifying. But then I think it
[33:21] Speaker 2: was Lisa, of course, breaks the code. He goes, don't
[33:24] Speaker 2: look at them. And the minute they did, they all
[33:26] Speaker 2: just fall over. Well, that's the internet in a way.
[33:29] Speaker 2: You know, there's the comm boxes. Don't look at them.
[33:33] Speaker 2: Don't read them. That's a complete waste. And it's more
[33:36] Speaker 2: than a waste of time. It's dangerous. then they'll go away.
[33:39] Speaker 2: Maybe that's my hope more than an expectation that they'll
[33:42] Speaker 2: go away if we learn to ignore them.
[33:44] Speaker 1: Well, if I could give a plug for the Word
[33:45] Speaker 1: on Fire Institute before we move to our listener question,
[33:49] Speaker 1: that's what we seek to do is to preserve the
[33:51] Speaker 1: original form of commenting on the Institute platform. We have
[33:53] Speaker 1: thousands of people active on the platform commenting under their
[33:57] Speaker 1: real names. It requires a lot of moderation and a
[34:00] Speaker 1: lot of engagement with the members. And we have to
[34:03] Speaker 1: have a clear goal. We like to think of it
[34:05] Speaker 1: as like a university classroom where you're going to allow
[34:07] Speaker 1: people Lots of different kinds of conversations, but you have
[34:10] Speaker 1: a specific goal in mind for those conversations. So as
[34:13] Speaker 1: long as you keep that goal in mind, that helps
[34:15] Speaker 1: keep the comments moderated and directed. So for anybody watching
[34:18] Speaker 1: who wants to comment, you can join the Word on
[34:20] Speaker 1: Fire Institute.
[34:21] Speaker 2: It won't be the chat room.
[34:22] Speaker 1: No, it will not.
[34:23] Speaker 2: It will not.
[34:24] Speaker 1: It's been exercise. All right. Well, it's now time for
[34:30] Speaker 1: our listener question. Today we have Taylor.
[34:32] Speaker 2: Taylor.
[34:33] Speaker 1: Asking for a concise definition of the meaning of respect
[34:36] Speaker 1: from the Catholic intellectual tradition.
[34:39] Speaker 2: Okay.
[34:42] Speaker 3: Hey, Bishop Barrett, would you please define respect? In our home,
[34:47] Speaker 3: we teach our children that every human being deserves two things,
[34:51] Speaker 3: love and respect. We taught them the definition of love
[34:54] Speaker 3: that we learned from you, willing the good of the other.
[34:58] Speaker 3: Could you please provide an equally succinct definition for respect?
[35:02] Speaker 2: Thank you. And God bless you. That's good. I don't
[35:06] Speaker 2: know if I can off the top of my head.
[35:08] Speaker 2: Something like the acknowledgement of the worth and value of
[35:12] Speaker 2: someone might be what respect means. So, right. Love is
[35:16] Speaker 2: to will the good of the other. Respect to acknowledge
[35:20] Speaker 2: the worth and value of someone. It's not as good
[35:25] Speaker 2: as Thomas Aquinas' definition of love, but that's, I guess,
[35:28] Speaker 2: how we'd see it. That's good, though. I like the
[35:30] Speaker 2: two things you're talking about, both love and respect. Because
[35:34] Speaker 2: respect doesn't mean, you know, that you can't correct someone.
[35:38] Speaker 2: You can respect. In fact, the more you respect someone,
[35:42] Speaker 2: the more you might want to get them back on
[35:44] Speaker 2: the right moral path. So it's not like this wokest
[35:48] Speaker 2: understanding of, you know, you got your opinion, I got
[35:51] Speaker 2: my opinion, and I'll never impose myself on you. No,
[35:54] Speaker 2: if you respect someone, you acknowledge their worth and value, well,
[35:58] Speaker 2: then you want them to be living a morally upright life.
[36:02] Speaker 2: So I kind of like that, the more I think
[36:03] Speaker 2: about it, acknowledging the value and worth of another.
[36:07] Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much, Taylor, for reaching out to us.
[36:09] Speaker 1: If you'd like to ask Bishop Barron a question for
[36:12] Speaker 1: a future Word on Fire show, please visit askbishopbarron.com. Again,
[36:16] Speaker 1: it's askbishopbarron.com. We do always love to hear from you. Well,
[36:21] Speaker 1: thanks again for another great conversation.
[36:23] Speaker 2: All right. Thanks, man. Always a joy.
[36:24] Speaker 1: Looking forward to the next one. That does it for
[36:26] Speaker 1: us today. Thanks for joining us on the Word on
[36:28] Speaker 1: Fire show. If you're interested in learning more about how
[36:30] Speaker 1: Word on Fire works, can help you grow closer to Christ,
[36:33] Speaker 1: become a better evangelist with and for others, and work
[36:36] Speaker 1: for the common good, consider joining the Word on Fire Institute.
[36:40] Speaker 1: Check us out at institute.wordonfire.org. That's institute.wordonfire.org. And we'll see
[36:46] Speaker 1: you next time.

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