# Whoever Is Not Against Us Is For Us - Bishop Barron's Daily Sermon

An episode of [Daily Sermons With Bishop Robert Barron](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/6783446284), 19 Jul 2026, 13 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/73038771/whoever_is_not_against_us_is_for_us_bishop_barron_s_sunday_sermon.mp3



## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Peace be with you friends. The first reading and third
[0:02] Speaker 1: meeting today are wonderful because I have to do well.
[0:05] Speaker 1: I think a basic problem in the church, which is
[0:09] Speaker 1: the church at war with itself. You know, mind you,
[0:13] Speaker 1: the devil is the scatterer, he's the divider, and one
[0:18] Speaker 1: of his favorite tricks is to take the church, which
[0:21] Speaker 1: is meant to be an instrument of the Gospel in
[0:23] Speaker 1: the world, and to turn us against one another, you know,
[0:27] Speaker 1: divide and conqueror It's a really good principle if you
[0:30] Speaker 1: want to undermine your enemy. Remember in the Old Tolkien
[0:34] Speaker 1: stories the Orcs. The Orcs are ferocious, you know, but
[0:38] Speaker 1: they always undermine themselves because they turn against one another.
[0:41] Speaker 1: They end up killing each other. Well, see, if you
[0:44] Speaker 1: can make your enemy do that, that's great. And so
[0:47] Speaker 1: the enemy of the Church, i think, loves to play
[0:50] Speaker 1: this game of dividing us against each other. A very
[0:56] Speaker 1: good example of this in the Old Testament is the
[0:58] Speaker 1: Saul David a conflict. Remember Saul and David, David Saul's protegee.
[1:03] Speaker 1: They're on the same team, they're fighting the same enemy.
[1:06] Speaker 1: But then that voice is heard, you know, hey, the
[1:11] Speaker 1: women saying Dave Saul slew his thousands, but David his
[1:15] Speaker 1: tens of thousands, and Saul is filled with murderous jealousy.
[1:20] Speaker 1: And this goes after David. And as you're reading that story,
[1:22] Speaker 1: you're thinking, no, no, no, no, no, you guys have
[1:26] Speaker 1: a common enemy here, and if you just stay together,
[1:30] Speaker 1: you can beat the Philistines. But instead David and Saul
[1:34] Speaker 1: turn against each other, and the purposes of God are
[1:37] Speaker 1: not realized. Well, perhaps somewhat less dramatic, but still very illuminating.
[1:44] Speaker 1: Example is in this Book of Numbers, our first reading.
[1:48] Speaker 1: Here's the setup for it is the Lord wants to
[1:51] Speaker 1: take some of the grace he gave to Moses and
[1:53] Speaker 1: spread it to seventy elders of the people so they
[1:57] Speaker 1: can help Moses in his governance of the nation. And
[2:02] Speaker 1: so they designate these seventy men, and they're like, there's
[2:06] Speaker 1: an official list of those who will receive the grace.
[2:09] Speaker 1: And so the moment comes and these these men receive
[2:13] Speaker 1: the grace. But two who were on the list, El
[2:16] Speaker 1: Dad and me Dad didn't show up, and so we
[2:20] Speaker 1: both thought, well, I guess you know, they're out of luck.
[2:22] Speaker 1: But it turns out that the two of them get
[2:25] Speaker 1: the grace anyway, and they begin to prophesy. So right
[2:30] Speaker 1: away a complaint is brought to Joshua and then to Moses. Hey, hey,
[2:34] Speaker 1: wait a minute. These two el Dad and me Dad,
[2:37] Speaker 1: they didn't show up for the ceremony, and so they
[2:40] Speaker 1: shouldn't be prophesying. You know, we showed up and we
[2:44] Speaker 1: did what God wanted, so we got a right to prophecy.
[2:47] Speaker 1: Those two guys, no, No, So Moses, you know, do
[2:51] Speaker 1: something about this. And first question, why are they trying
[2:57] Speaker 1: to stop? Them trying to stop? Aren't they all on
[3:01] Speaker 1: the same team that they're the people of God? And
[3:04] Speaker 1: if God wants to spread his grace among them and
[3:08] Speaker 1: elevate them to do great things, I mean, what's the problem.
[3:13] Speaker 1: Remember our sermon from last week. If you're preoccupied with
[3:16] Speaker 1: the ladder, who's up, who's down, who's in, who's out,
[3:20] Speaker 1: who's going up, who's going down, Well, then you are
[3:23] Speaker 1: going to worry about things like this. Hey, hey, I
[3:25] Speaker 1: took the time, you know, I followed the rules and
[3:27] Speaker 1: I was there. These two weren't there. Well what if
[3:31] Speaker 1: we say that stupid ladder, though, is just a waste
[3:33] Speaker 1: of time. Who cares about it? As long as we're
[3:36] Speaker 1: doing what God wants, which is exactly what Moses says.
[3:43] Speaker 1: Moses answered them, are you jealous? For my sake? Would
[3:48] Speaker 1: that all the people Lord were prophets? Would that the
[3:51] Speaker 1: Lord might bestow his spirit on them all? So Moses
[3:55] Speaker 1: beautifully here shows great spiritual common sense. They all want
[4:02] Speaker 1: to play the game of divisiveness and who's in, who's out,
[4:05] Speaker 1: Who followed the rules who didn't. Moses is like cust
[4:08] Speaker 1: to the chase. I don't have time for this. This
[4:11] Speaker 1: is this is a waste of everybody's time. I'd be
[4:15] Speaker 1: happy if God made everybody a prophet. I'm not jealous
[4:18] Speaker 1: because someone else has been given the prophetic gift. What
[4:23] Speaker 1: would happen everybody? If the whole church would feel that way?
[4:28] Speaker 1: What would happen if we just didn't care about who
[4:31] Speaker 1: is number one? Who got the that we're all fighting
[4:36] Speaker 1: the same fight? The church would do its job and
[4:40] Speaker 1: not be divided. Well, listen out in the Gospel, we've
[4:45] Speaker 1: got a version of this. At that time, John said
[4:49] Speaker 1: to Jesus, teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in
[4:54] Speaker 1: your name. We try to prevent him because he does
[4:57] Speaker 1: not follow us. Jesus repla, I do not prevent him.
[5:02] Speaker 1: There is no one who performs a mighty deed in
[5:05] Speaker 1: my name who can at the same time speak ill
[5:08] Speaker 1: of me. For whoever is not against us is for us.
[5:16] Speaker 1: Same issue. Right, So John, presumably speaking for the other disciples,
[5:21] Speaker 1: they're the inn group, they're the ones closest to the Lord.
[5:26] Speaker 1: They've been given prerogatives. Okay, they're the twelve Apostles, right,
[5:30] Speaker 1: they're at the top of the spiritual ladder. But wait
[5:34] Speaker 1: a minute, there's these people over there. They're not part
[5:36] Speaker 1: of our group. They're not close to you the way
[5:40] Speaker 1: we are, Lord, and they're driving out demons in your name.
[5:44] Speaker 1: Tell them to stop. They're not following all the right rubrics.
[5:51] Speaker 1: Jesus here, like Moses, cuts to the chase. Who cares?
[5:58] Speaker 1: Who cares if they're driving out demons. Think of someone
[6:01] Speaker 1: now who's in the grip of a demon, someone whose
[6:05] Speaker 1: life has been horribly compromised, someone who's been suffering, maybe
[6:11] Speaker 1: for years and years, and the demons driven out in
[6:16] Speaker 1: the name of Jesus. Isn't that just good? No, no, no, no,
[6:23] Speaker 1: I'm going to bracket that. What's bugging me is he
[6:27] Speaker 1: didn't follow the regulations. He's not part of our official group, Well,
[6:34] Speaker 1: who cares? Who cares? As long as the spiritual work
[6:38] Speaker 1: is being done. See what matters, everybody. What matters, I'll
[6:43] Speaker 1: put it this way, is the flow of grace. God
[6:47] Speaker 1: wants his grace to flow through us into the world,
[6:50] Speaker 1: to lift it up, to transform it. That's what God wants.
[6:53] Speaker 1: That's it, that's what he wants. Listen, now, whatever structures
[6:58] Speaker 1: there are in the church, in the way we organize
[7:03] Speaker 1: our spiritual alliance, whatever structures there are are in service
[7:07] Speaker 1: of that, not vice versa. Everything in the church is
[7:13] Speaker 1: meant to facilitate the flow of grace. So if grace
[7:17] Speaker 1: is flowing, don't get in its way, don't mistake forest
[7:24] Speaker 1: for trees, don't get mixed up on spiritual priorities. Now,
[7:29] Speaker 1: I say, okay, I guess this happened in ancient times
[7:33] Speaker 1: the Book of Numbers. Guess it happened in Jesus time
[7:35] Speaker 1: with his own disciples. But thank God, it never happens
[7:38] Speaker 1: in my world. Open your eyes. I mean, look, I've
[7:43] Speaker 1: been a churchman for a long time. I've been a
[7:45] Speaker 1: priest for thirty eight years, bishop for nine years. Look,
[7:50] Speaker 1: I love church people. I've been around in most of
[7:53] Speaker 1: my adult life. People that dedicate themselves to the work
[7:58] Speaker 1: of the Kingdom of God, and who are in the
[8:01] Speaker 1: structures and hierarchies and bureaucracies of the church. And I
[8:05] Speaker 1: love them and I love those structures too. By the way,
[8:10] Speaker 1: what are they meant to do? They're meant to facilitate
[8:13] Speaker 1: the flow of grace period period. Am I happy there's
[8:17] Speaker 1: good order in the church? Of course i am. Look,
[8:20] Speaker 1: I'm a bishop of a diocese. Part of my job
[8:23] Speaker 1: is to assure good order in the life of the church.
[8:25] Speaker 1: If there's just chaos at the liturgical level, the pastoral level,
[8:30] Speaker 1: well that's not going to help anybody. So I got
[8:32] Speaker 1: nothing against church office and Paris staffs and chancery offices
[8:39] Speaker 1: and all those good things. However, does it happen sometimes
[8:46] Speaker 1: that good people who are involved in these structures start
[8:50] Speaker 1: caring a lot more about the structure than about spiritual power. Yeah,
[8:57] Speaker 1: I think so are carrying much more about you know,
[9:02] Speaker 1: who's in charge, who follow the regulations, who's in or
[9:07] Speaker 1: who's out, who's expected to get this and not that.
[9:11] Speaker 1: Then they are with the real spiritual power that comes
[9:18] Speaker 1: from the flow of grace. Sometimes too, you know this
[9:24] Speaker 1: jealousy issue that go back to the el Dad and
[9:27] Speaker 1: media story. It is part of it. Hey, I'm on
[9:31] Speaker 1: the list and I cooperated, and these two guys didn't
[9:35] Speaker 1: even show up, and yet they're getting the same gift
[9:39] Speaker 1: I got. Don't seem right. I resent that I've seen
[9:45] Speaker 1: this happen, you know, frequently enough in my years in
[9:49] Speaker 1: the church. Is someone comes along with a really good idea.
[9:54] Speaker 1: Maybe it's a younger person, maybe someone new in the ministry,
[9:57] Speaker 1: new in the priesthood, and they've got to really good
[10:00] Speaker 1: idea and it's working, and everyone can see that it's
[10:04] Speaker 1: working and that the church would benefit from this. And
[10:07] Speaker 1: the idea is brought down to the chance to be
[10:09] Speaker 1: office or the peristaff or to the pastor or the
[10:12] Speaker 1: bishop or whatever, and it's you know, it dies the
[10:16] Speaker 1: death of a thousand cuts. It's critiqued, it's undermined, it's
[10:21] Speaker 1: put in the bureaucracy, it's shuffled around people quietly resisted.
[10:28] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'll take care of that. I'll talk to
[10:30] Speaker 1: the right person. Then that person has never talked to
[10:32] Speaker 1: you know what I mean? You know what I mean?
[10:34] Speaker 1: How we will, out of jealousy or resentment, kill even
[10:38] Speaker 1: a beautiful idea because it's not fitting into our sense
[10:43] Speaker 1: of the way things ought to go. I'm jealous of that.
[10:48] Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't my idea. So why would they
[10:51] Speaker 1: implement that guy's idea? And look, he's this young fellay
[10:55] Speaker 1: just joined us. I've been working here for thirty five years.
[10:58] Speaker 1: Why should they get all the credit? Saul slew his thousands,
[11:03] Speaker 1: David is tens of thousands. I've seen that too in
[11:06] Speaker 1: parishes where you know, father, young priest comes along and
[11:09] Speaker 1: he's a very charming and a great preacher, and everybody
[11:12] Speaker 1: loves him and they used, hey, you know father's own
[11:14] Speaker 1: So the pastor he's great, but all this new kid,
[11:17] Speaker 1: we really like him. Well, the old pastor can start
[11:22] Speaker 1: resenting that, and you know, how come he's getting all
[11:24] Speaker 1: this attention. A line I've seen attributed to Harry S. Truman,
[11:29] Speaker 1: the American President, There's no limit to what we could
[11:34] Speaker 1: accomplish if no one cared about who got credit for it.
[11:39] Speaker 1: That's a line that's very illuminating, I think, and I
[11:42] Speaker 1: think it applies at every level of life. Let that
[11:46] Speaker 1: sink in. There's no limit to what we could accomplish
[11:50] Speaker 1: as a parish, as a diocese, as a church, if
[11:54] Speaker 1: nobody cared who got credit. So let's say it's my
[11:59] Speaker 1: idea and I bring it to the table and then
[12:02] Speaker 1: it's adopted. But for whatever reason, someone else got credit
[12:05] Speaker 1: for it. Someone else is getting all the praise for it.
[12:10] Speaker 1: Never sent that, and I'm going to get in his
[12:13] Speaker 1: way next time. Whom does that serve but the devil?
[12:19] Speaker 1: Whom does that attitude serve but the devil? The dark power?
[12:23] Speaker 1: What if it's you know what, I don't care who
[12:26] Speaker 1: gets credit, because what I care about is the flow
[12:29] Speaker 1: of grays el Dad and me Dad, they didn't show up.
[12:33] Speaker 1: Who cares? Moses says, I don't care. I wish everybody
[12:36] Speaker 1: was a prophet. Hey, Lord Jesus, those guys are, they're
[12:40] Speaker 1: expelling demons in your name. Let them let them. If
[12:44] Speaker 1: they're not against us, there for us. And if people
[12:47] Speaker 1: are being liberated from the dark power, terrific. I don't
[12:50] Speaker 1: care who gets credit for it, or if they're the
[12:52] Speaker 1: in group or the outgroup. What if all of us
[12:56] Speaker 1: felt that way. There's no limit spiritually speaking to what
[13:02] Speaker 1: we might accomplish. And God bless you

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.