# Accountable: When "F!#K You" Isn't Fixing the Problem

An episode of [TheThinkingAtheist](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/412308695), 5 Aug 2025, 39 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/mgln.ai/e/711/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/67056480/podcast817_accountable.mp3

Joining us this week is Sarah Tulien, Executive Director of the Creator Accountability Network, to talk about conflict, offense, scandal, and potential paths forward. http://www.creatoraccountabilitynetwork.org Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/thethinkingatheist--3270347/support.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
[0:09] Speaker 1: an idea.
[0:10] Speaker 2: The population of atheists in this country is going through the.
[0:13] Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I
[0:19] Speaker 1: tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.
[0:22] Speaker 3: I put my hand on a book and made a.
[0:24] Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.
[0:29] Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking, feel so much more happiness.
[0:32] Speaker 2: Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way.
[0:35] Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
[0:43] Speaker 1: Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
[0:56] Speaker 2: I wanted to have a conversation with Sarah Tulane. She
[0:58] Speaker 2: is the executive director of the Creator Accountability Network. Now
[1:04] Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about what that is, what it does,
[1:07] Speaker 2: and why. Sarah. Welcome, Good to see you, Hi, Seth.
[1:12] Speaker 1: So.
[1:14] Speaker 2: Creator meaning content creator for what the secular movements? I mean,
[1:20] Speaker 2: frame the organization, give me the mission statement for lack
[1:23] Speaker 2: of a better word, if you would, sure.
[1:26] Speaker 3: The Creator Accountability Network is an organization that uses restorative
[1:30] Speaker 3: justice approach to helping content creators. That's where Creator comes from.
[1:35] Speaker 3: Community leaders and members of those communities prevent harmful behavior
[1:39] Speaker 3: and address it.
[1:40] Speaker 2: When it happens, all right, so let's let's just go there.
[1:45] Speaker 2: We in the secular movement have seen instances where there
[1:50] Speaker 2: have been inappropriate behaviors, even a few instances of predatory behaviors. Right,
[1:55] Speaker 2: we haven't been immune for many of the scandals or
[2:00] Speaker 2: or even just I don't know, just inappropriate stuff that
[2:03] Speaker 2: has been seen, whether it's within a free thought group
[2:07] Speaker 2: or at a convention or something. It's one of the
[2:09] Speaker 2: reasons that a few years ago we saw code of
[2:11] Speaker 2: conduct guidelines posted actually in the programs or near the
[2:16] Speaker 2: entrances of all these things, because we wanted to make
[2:19] Speaker 2: sure that all the bases were covered. Everybody knows what
[2:21] Speaker 2: the rules are. But is that sort of I don't know.
[2:25] Speaker 2: The genesis of all this was that the inspiration we
[2:28] Speaker 2: have seen shit go down, and now we want to
[2:31] Speaker 2: try to get in front of it.
[2:33] Speaker 3: Quite literally, we have seen shit go down, and we thought,
[2:38] Speaker 3: you know, there are every time something like this goes down,
[2:41] Speaker 3: you think to yourself, how could it have been prevented?
[2:44] Speaker 3: What could have stopped this from happening earlier on? I
[2:48] Speaker 3: see a lot of those conversations happen every time something
[2:51] Speaker 3: like this goes down. What was done to prevent it,
[2:54] Speaker 3: what was done to try to address it. Our organization
[2:57] Speaker 3: does both. We work to prevent harassment and abuse and
[3:01] Speaker 3: unethical behavior, and we work to address it and help
[3:06] Speaker 3: people work through it when it does happen.
[3:08] Speaker 2: Well, give me some situationals. I heard the word harassment,
[3:11] Speaker 2: and I heard the word unethical behavior. Give me some
[3:15] Speaker 2: examples of the stuff that sort of the radar is
[3:18] Speaker 2: out for. Okay, so.
[3:21] Speaker 3: There's not a lot of support to help with harassment
[3:24] Speaker 3: and abuse that doesn't actually, let's say, violate the law.
[3:29] Speaker 3: These things are spectrums of behavior where you can go
[3:32] Speaker 3: from just general discomfort, things that we recognize do push
[3:38] Speaker 3: people out of our communities and out of our movements,
[3:42] Speaker 3: all the way up to things that are egregious crimes.
[3:45] Speaker 3: Restorative justice addresses a broad spectrum of things, whether their
[3:50] Speaker 3: crimes or not, so we can address things that are
[3:54] Speaker 3: more minor or more major, things where people are hoping
[3:57] Speaker 3: to receive education to address and prevent future occurrences of
[4:03] Speaker 3: that behavior, and also to help repair harms that have
[4:07] Speaker 3: been caused, whether that's through statements of apology or sharing
[4:13] Speaker 3: education that someone has learned with other people.
[4:16] Speaker 2: All Right, So one of the I'm going to play
[4:18] Speaker 2: devil's advocate here and everybody go with me. Two words,
[4:21] Speaker 2: witch hunt. All right, find anybody, anybody who's got to
[4:26] Speaker 2: beef hunt with somebody. They're going to come to you
[4:28] Speaker 2: and they're going to be like, that person's terrible, and
[4:31] Speaker 2: then you're going to go and nuke them from orbit
[4:33] Speaker 2: and we're going to destroy their lives. This is probably
[4:36] Speaker 2: one of the first things that we're going to see
[4:38] Speaker 2: in common sections. Let's get in front of that. Is
[4:41] Speaker 2: this the case.
[4:44] Speaker 3: We actually help prevent witch hunts? We call it more
[4:50] Speaker 3: unsubstantiated accusations, So unsubstantiated does not mean untrue. It just
[4:57] Speaker 3: means we don't know what's going on yet, and accusation
[5:00] Speaker 3: is out there. A lot of times, the court of
[5:04] Speaker 3: public opinion is one of the worst places to litigate
[5:07] Speaker 3: something like this. Even when a harm has occurred. Victims
[5:12] Speaker 3: who try to come forward can find themselves in a
[5:15] Speaker 3: really scary position. A lot of times, if you're coming
[5:19] Speaker 3: forward in a public space, you're coming forward against somebody
[5:22] Speaker 3: who is a leader in the community, who has a
[5:25] Speaker 3: lot of support, and people have a lot of motivated reasoning,
[5:29] Speaker 3: even biases, so there's a lot of motivation to let's say,
[5:35] Speaker 3: go after the character of the person who's coming forward,
[5:38] Speaker 3: or to question what they did, what they said, why
[5:42] Speaker 3: did they say it? So a lot of victim blaming
[5:44] Speaker 3: happens there. And then on the other hand, people who
[5:47] Speaker 3: do want to address these issues and support it will
[5:50] Speaker 3: come out in support of the person making the allegations,
[5:53] Speaker 3: and they'll come after your content creator. Why don't you
[5:57] Speaker 3: understand how this is impacting our move Why don't you
[6:00] Speaker 3: understand how this is pushing people out? Why don't you
[6:03] Speaker 3: understand how this impacted this one person. A lot of
[6:06] Speaker 3: times your community fractures, and what you're left with is
[6:10] Speaker 3: the people who supported the you know, whatever the allegations were,
[6:14] Speaker 3: tend to leave or get really quiet. They don't feel
[6:16] Speaker 3: safe anymore. And the people who stay are the people
[6:19] Speaker 3: who more backed you, but might also have more biases
[6:22] Speaker 3: and might also, you know, be less willing to believe
[6:26] Speaker 3: or hear out somebody who says, hey, something that happened
[6:29] Speaker 3: to me.
[6:30] Speaker 2: Maybe witch hunt's the wrong word. I mean a lot
[6:32] Speaker 2: of people on a witch hunt weren't just out to
[6:36] Speaker 2: screw somebody over because they were being vindictive. They literally
[6:39] Speaker 2: believed in witches maybe that's a whole other I was
[6:42] Speaker 2: looking sort of groping. For god, I don't want to
[6:45] Speaker 2: use the word groping, let me use a different ter
[6:48] Speaker 2: forgive me, but we've seen you that's not better. That's
[6:51] Speaker 2: somebody goes to a convention and there's a we'll call
[6:56] Speaker 2: it a power dynamic because that's the phrase that is
[6:59] Speaker 2: often used when we've people who are speakers or influencers
[7:03] Speaker 2: who have then traded in on that influence to try
[7:06] Speaker 2: to gain access, even sexual access to an attendee. We
[7:11] Speaker 2: have to admit that this in the past has happened.
[7:15] Speaker 2: And you know, these people did not go to a
[7:17] Speaker 2: convention because they wanted to be hit on. They went
[7:21] Speaker 2: because they wanted to go to the convention and learn
[7:23] Speaker 2: things and have a good time, which brings us back
[7:27] Speaker 2: to the codes of conducts. But when we talk about
[7:31] Speaker 2: those types of inappropriate behaviors, you have seen examples of
[7:35] Speaker 2: the power dynamic and people who have sort of abused
[7:39] Speaker 2: their influence to try to I don't know, invite somebody, Hey,
[7:43] Speaker 2: come up to my room, honey, kind of thing. I mean,
[7:45] Speaker 2: we've seen that happen. Unfortunately, right we have.
[7:49] Speaker 3: Yeah, the Creator Accountability Network is an opt in model.
[7:55] Speaker 3: So content creators leaders join us, and when they do,
[8:01] Speaker 3: they receive trainings on harassment and abuse prevention and bystander intervention.
[8:06] Speaker 3: But we specifically put them through scenarios where we have
[8:11] Speaker 3: them think what would I do in the scenario, What
[8:14] Speaker 3: does the power dynamic do in this scenario? How does
[8:17] Speaker 3: it impact the person I'm talking to. It's not that
[8:21] Speaker 3: you can never interact with other people. It's not that
[8:23] Speaker 3: you can never forge relationships. It's that you have to
[8:28] Speaker 3: be mentally mindful and aware of your power dynamic within
[8:32] Speaker 3: these situations and what the other person might be there for,
[8:37] Speaker 3: making sure that you are incredibly easy to say no to,
[8:43] Speaker 3: and that you're always seeking positive, affirmative, enthusiastic consent for everything,
[8:52] Speaker 3: for a conversation, for you know, hanging out together at
[8:58] Speaker 3: the bar, for whatever you're doing, that you're welcome.
[9:01] Speaker 2: It's funny we're both managing our language carefully because the
[9:06] Speaker 2: other side of this coin is, and I've said this
[9:08] Speaker 2: since I have become an activist, you know, we are
[9:11] Speaker 2: all adults in the room and we are going to often,
[9:15] Speaker 2: let's say we are single, or we're looking for a
[9:18] Speaker 2: connection of any kind, we're probably going to find that
[9:22] Speaker 2: in whatever circle that we exist in. So if you
[9:25] Speaker 2: are a secular person, you're an atheist, you or whatever,
[9:29] Speaker 2: and you interact in those circles. A convention might be
[9:33] Speaker 2: part of that circle. You might meet someone and you
[9:36] Speaker 2: develop there's a spark there and before you know what,
[9:38] Speaker 2: you are having a drink and then you say, hey,
[9:40] Speaker 2: would you like to have dinner? And so a lot
[9:43] Speaker 2: of us who were like, well, you know, we talk
[9:45] Speaker 2: about being liberated and getting other people from getting into
[9:50] Speaker 2: our bedrooms and telling us what to do and how
[9:52] Speaker 2: to operate, and you know, it's none of your damn
[9:54] Speaker 2: business kind of thing, and it's this weird situational thing
[9:58] Speaker 2: where we're like, okay, are we adults in the room
[10:01] Speaker 2: and everybody's giving enthusiastic consent? Or is it sort of
[10:06] Speaker 2: lopsided in some way and manipulative in some way? And
[10:11] Speaker 2: your organization has a process to try to determine intent.
[10:15] Speaker 2: Would that be a way to say it.
[10:18] Speaker 3: Somewhat? So, people who are credentialed creators we do have,
[10:25] Speaker 3: you know, after all of the trainings that they've taken,
[10:27] Speaker 3: which is proactively trying to prevent harmful behaviors and helping
[10:32] Speaker 3: them navigate ethically complex situations. We have a reporting system
[10:39] Speaker 3: for people who feel that they have been harmed, and
[10:42] Speaker 3: that reporting system includes a hotline that they can call
[10:45] Speaker 3: that is staffed by victim advocates. It includes you can
[10:49] Speaker 3: also fill out a form on our website. We have
[10:51] Speaker 3: a team of professional investigators who will conduct interviews and
[10:57] Speaker 3: get all sides of the story, all the evidence that's available.
[11:01] Speaker 3: Our ethics panel will sit down and parse through it.
[11:05] Speaker 3: You know, did our content creator miss something? Is their
[11:09] Speaker 3: education that they clearly need. So they just need to
[11:12] Speaker 3: hear the perspective of this person so that they can
[11:14] Speaker 3: understand that this behavior in this situation caused this kind
[11:19] Speaker 3: of impact. And so then at the end, our mediations
[11:22] Speaker 3: team will sit down with them and talk with them
[11:25] Speaker 3: about whatever the situation happened to be, what was reported,
[11:29] Speaker 3: What did the person report was the impact on them?
[11:32] Speaker 3: Because clearly, if someone has called us, something has gone wrong,
[11:36] Speaker 3: and any of our credentialed creators don't like if you've
[11:41] Speaker 3: come to us to be credentialed, you don't want to
[11:43] Speaker 3: cause harm, even unintentionally. It may not have, you know,
[11:48] Speaker 3: been what you wanted, but you want to at least
[11:50] Speaker 3: make it right.
[11:52] Speaker 2: Sure, I get that even those who didn't intend to
[11:56] Speaker 2: blow it, you know, to overreach to make somebody else
[11:59] Speaker 2: feel from endus.
[12:00] Speaker 3: Leaps signs all the time. When we're interacting with people
[12:04] Speaker 3: that we like, that we have attractions to, we're very
[12:07] Speaker 3: motivated to hear what we want to hear, see what
[12:09] Speaker 3: we want to see. We help people be aware of
[12:14] Speaker 3: how to ethically, you know, navigate situations like that, stay
[12:18] Speaker 3: within their codes of conduct, make sure that they have
[12:21] Speaker 3: affirmative positive consent, and that people can opt out at
[12:24] Speaker 3: any point in time very easily. But you know, when
[12:28] Speaker 3: things go wrong, we're also there to help.
[12:30] Speaker 2: I like the model for a few reasons. First of all,
[12:33] Speaker 2: and I understand if someone feels that they have been
[12:37] Speaker 2: as someone's acted inappropriately to them or around them, and
[12:43] Speaker 2: they don't feel like anybody's really listening, their first instinct
[12:47] Speaker 2: might be to sound the alarm on the internet, to
[12:50] Speaker 2: go on social media and say, holy shit, this person
[12:52] Speaker 2: did this and this and this, and if you know them,
[12:54] Speaker 2: if your friends, you should, and everybody loses their mind
[12:56] Speaker 2: and then the other person rallies their people. The internet
[12:59] Speaker 2: is an arena for escalation and what you guys provide
[13:05] Speaker 2: is a listening year. You provide tools, and you're kind
[13:09] Speaker 2: of an honest broker. You know, you're you're not one
[13:12] Speaker 2: side or the other. You want to be on the
[13:14] Speaker 2: right side, but you're in many ways on the de
[13:18] Speaker 2: escalation front. And I like that. I really like that
[13:22] Speaker 2: vibe that you guys have.
[13:24] Speaker 3: De Escalation is like my keyword for the past three months.
[13:31] Speaker 2: I mean, you've seen what I'm talking about, right, I mean,
[13:33] Speaker 2: people just go online and before you know it, it's
[13:36] Speaker 2: all caps and fuck you and you're dead to me.
[13:38] Speaker 2: And I mean we just go from zero to the
[13:41] Speaker 2: red zone.
[13:42] Speaker 3: People forget that there's a human being on the other
[13:44] Speaker 3: side and they don't get to see the impact of
[13:47] Speaker 3: their words, which in those situations, if anybody has ever seen,
[13:52] Speaker 3: I feel like most of your listeners have seen at
[13:53] Speaker 3: least one or two instances of a drama exploding, Like
[13:57] Speaker 3: what's happening to those people, all the people involved. They
[14:00] Speaker 3: are being flooded with adrenaline and cortisol. They don't sleep,
[14:04] Speaker 3: they don't eat. It causes severe mental harm, physical harm
[14:09] Speaker 3: to all sides. And then you have thousands of strangers
[14:14] Speaker 3: turning their half formed opinions or their opinions that are
[14:17] Speaker 3: only informed by half truths, you know, turning that against you.
[14:22] Speaker 3: And it's a very stressful and challenging situation to be
[14:27] Speaker 3: in any time you're in it.
[14:29] Speaker 2: I want to continue with Sarah Tulin of the Creator
[14:32] Speaker 2: Accountability Network. I've got more questions about what to do
[14:36] Speaker 2: when somebody does wrong to us or vice versa. What
[14:41] Speaker 2: happens if we don't think it's fixable, What happens if
[14:43] Speaker 2: we think some people are irredeemable. I don't know. Let's
[14:46] Speaker 2: talk more after this. Are you a fan of true stories,
[14:50] Speaker 2: interesting history, celebrity trivia, true crime, weird news, and you're
[14:56] Speaker 2: going to love my podcast True Stories with Seth Andrews
[15:01] Speaker 2: and I'm your host, Seth Andrews, releasing five minute podcast
[15:05] Speaker 2: vignettes three times a week. Search True Stories with Seth
[15:09] Speaker 2: Andrews on Spreaker and all major podcast apps, or visit
[15:13] Speaker 2: the website True Stories podcast dot com. Thank you so
[15:25] Speaker 2: much for listening today, and thanks for your support on Patreon, Patreon,
[15:30] Speaker 2: dot com, slash. Seth Andrews continuing now with my special guest,
[15:36] Speaker 2: Sarah Toulein, executive director of the Creator Accountability Network. I
[15:42] Speaker 2: think two it's difficult to know, as we are not clairvoyant.
[15:46] Speaker 2: If i'm you know you and I are speaking to someone,
[15:49] Speaker 2: we don't know where they are in their lives. They
[15:51] Speaker 2: may have some extremely raw nerves based on a background
[15:54] Speaker 2: previous abuse, bad relationships, bad experience with another influencer, so
[16:00] Speaker 2: that may have already supercharged their perception of what's going
[16:03] Speaker 2: to happen next. And that's totally valid, but it's not
[16:06] Speaker 2: information that we can really into it because we cannot
[16:10] Speaker 2: read minds. And then if there was someone who did
[16:13] Speaker 2: something just stupid or or they didn't mean to harm,
[16:17] Speaker 2: it doesn't mean they're evil. It just means maybe there's
[16:20] Speaker 2: some education that needs to take place. Some people would
[16:24] Speaker 2: call that a sellout. You know, hey, someone acted inappropriately
[16:28] Speaker 2: to me, and now you're going to give them a pass.
[16:29] Speaker 2: You're going to let them take a workshop, and they're
[16:31] Speaker 2: going to get off the hook with the pad on
[16:33] Speaker 2: the wrist. You know, how dare you? What would you
[16:34] Speaker 2: say to them?
[16:36] Speaker 3: That's a common criticism of restorative justice is that it
[16:41] Speaker 3: is in some measure of fender centric, So its goal
[16:45] Speaker 3: is not to you know, cancel or get retribution. It's
[16:52] Speaker 3: not an eye for an eye. It is about recognizing,
[16:57] Speaker 3: you know, what laws we're in this person that we
[17:01] Speaker 3: can help them overcome, and how can we help them,
[17:06] Speaker 3: you know, recognize the behavior and its impact, and then
[17:10] Speaker 3: correct the behavior for the future so that they can
[17:12] Speaker 3: stay in the community and be safe and healthy people
[17:16] Speaker 3: to be around, while also looking at the person who
[17:20] Speaker 3: was harmed and helping address their needs. What does it
[17:23] Speaker 3: take for them to feel safe around this person? What
[17:26] Speaker 3: does it take to keep both people in the community
[17:28] Speaker 3: so that we're not having to choose one over the other.
[17:31] Speaker 3: It's not always possible.
[17:33] Speaker 2: But I mean, I was going to ask Sarah, is
[17:37] Speaker 2: there there's got to be a line? I mean, somebody's
[17:39] Speaker 2: just a douchebag, somebody just to acige horribly to work, somebody,
[17:43] Speaker 2: somebody endangered somebody else. I mean, there's a line.
[17:46] Speaker 3: I'm very I'm very fortunate and that running the Creator
[17:49] Speaker 3: Accountability Network, the people who come to us specifically to
[17:53] Speaker 3: sign up are asking for that feedback. They are saying, Hey,
[17:57] Speaker 3: if I've harmed somebody, I would like to know about it.
[18:00] Speaker 3: I would actually like to make it better.
[18:02] Speaker 2: So okay, well, I'm on. I totally get that. I mean,
[18:04] Speaker 2: but beyond our organization it's totally fair. In the past,
[18:08] Speaker 2: if we have seen somebody come forward and they're just
[18:13] Speaker 2: not somebody we want to be around, and we don't
[18:15] Speaker 2: want others to be around in that way because we've
[18:18] Speaker 2: seen a pattern of behaviors. I mean just generally, there's
[18:22] Speaker 2: a line right where you're like, ah, no, you.
[18:25] Speaker 3: Know, there has to be Those are called boundaries. You
[18:27] Speaker 3: have to set boundaries in any community. You have values,
[18:30] Speaker 3: you have Here's how we're allowed to treat people, Here's
[18:33] Speaker 3: how we're not allowed to treat people, and here are
[18:36] Speaker 3: the boundaries. If you want to be in our community,
[18:38] Speaker 3: you stay within them. And if you are going to
[18:40] Speaker 3: insist on behaving with outside of those boundaries, you are
[18:44] Speaker 3: not a part of the community any longer. The boundaries
[18:46] Speaker 3: are what create the community.
[18:48] Speaker 2: Talking here with Sarah Tulan, executive director of the Creator
[18:52] Speaker 2: Accountability Network, Well, Sarah, how do you vet the people
[18:57] Speaker 2: that are part of the network.
[19:00] Speaker 3: People come to us to be credentialed, So if you
[19:04] Speaker 3: are passionate about, you know, having a safe and ethical community,
[19:08] Speaker 3: you can come join. We do not sit down and
[19:13] Speaker 3: come through everybody's content for every last problematic thing they've
[19:17] Speaker 3: ever said or done, but we'll take a cursory look,
[19:19] Speaker 3: like what's the topic of the content, what are the
[19:23] Speaker 3: issues that are likely to arise. So if you've got
[19:27] Speaker 3: culture war issues, let's say, or social justice issues, you're
[19:31] Speaker 3: going to have certain topics and you're going to probably
[19:33] Speaker 3: encounter certain you know, criticisms or be wading into certain waters.
[19:41] Speaker 3: If you make content that's about cars, like, different issues
[19:46] Speaker 3: are at play there. So if you're passionate about what
[19:50] Speaker 3: we do, you can come join. We don't have any
[19:55] Speaker 3: restrictions on belief systems or any other identity.
[20:00] Speaker 2: Are you saying that anybody in any influencer doing content
[20:05] Speaker 2: on any subject anywhere could come to you or are
[20:08] Speaker 2: you more focused on the secular movement?
[20:11] Speaker 3: We came from the secular movement a lot of us,
[20:15] Speaker 3: like overwhelmingly just the communities that we were part of,
[20:19] Speaker 3: So naturally that's where people know us. That's where you know,
[20:22] Speaker 3: most of our creators come from. It's a network, so
[20:25] Speaker 3: it spreads the message further and further and further, and
[20:30] Speaker 3: so people who are not secular could absolutely come as
[20:33] Speaker 3: long as their content is still you know, ethical follows
[20:37] Speaker 3: what we would consider it to be like important values
[20:39] Speaker 3: of ours. We're not going to credential Alex Jones, for instance,
[20:44] Speaker 3: unless we sit down with him and go through, like,
[20:48] Speaker 3: you know, all the things that are wrong with his
[20:50] Speaker 3: content and he wants to fix it.
[20:52] Speaker 2: All that's tough for me, Sarah. That's time. I mean
[20:57] Speaker 2: Alex Jones is.
[20:58] Speaker 3: Yeah, because Jones came to us and we said, oh, well,
[21:02] Speaker 3: we can't credential you because your content is really, really
[21:05] Speaker 3: really unethical. You want to sit down and talk about
[21:08] Speaker 3: all the you know, things that are wrong with your content,
[21:11] Speaker 3: We can do that.
[21:12] Speaker 2: Okay, and we can fix Sarah, hang on, all right,
[21:15] Speaker 2: So Alex, let's let's do this. Let's say I love it.
[21:19] Speaker 3: Let's say credential Alex Jones.
[21:22] Speaker 2: What would it tay like if you and I I
[21:25] Speaker 2: think are along the same lines that we've all had
[21:27] Speaker 2: terrible ideas of some kind, some worse than others. And
[21:30] Speaker 2: the goal is to rescue people from brainwashing, from bigotrigue,
[21:35] Speaker 2: from hate, from bad behaviors, from from being you know,
[21:39] Speaker 2: problematic in so many The goal is not necessarily to
[21:43] Speaker 2: see everybody decimated, although I'm not convinced everybody can be reached,
[21:47] Speaker 2: we do want to see rescue, right, So I would
[21:51] Speaker 2: allow I got to be so careful because Alex Jones,
[21:54] Speaker 2: to me is just just causes the bile in my mouth.
[21:59] Speaker 2: Just the man is a monster, Okay. Alex Jones has
[22:04] Speaker 2: an epiphany, okay, and realizes how wrong he has been,
[22:10] Speaker 2: and there's a massive sea change in his heart and mind.
[22:15] Speaker 2: He throws himself down at the feet of society and says,
[22:20] Speaker 2: I have done massive amounts of harm. I will commit
[22:23] Speaker 2: the rest of my life to trying to fix some
[22:28] Speaker 2: of what I have broken. And if he was to
[22:33] Speaker 2: do that, help me.
[22:40] Speaker 3: Justice is hard.
[22:41] Speaker 2: Help me, Sarah, I mean, does does the does our
[22:45] Speaker 2: door crack open?
[22:47] Speaker 3: Let me put this in perspective. Let me put this
[22:49] Speaker 3: in perspective, rank you. Restarative justice approaches have been used
[22:54] Speaker 3: in apartheid areas, in places where the side has happened,
[23:01] Speaker 3: where people exist in the same villages and have to
[23:06] Speaker 3: you know, coexist and find ways to move forward together
[23:11] Speaker 3: as a community. It can be used to help people
[23:15] Speaker 3: work through sexual assault, murder of loved ones and family members.
[23:21] Speaker 3: So could we sit down with Alex Jones, And you know,
[23:26] Speaker 3: it's not saying that anyone owes him forgiveness or that
[23:29] Speaker 3: anyone owes him anything at all. It's about him recognizing
[23:35] Speaker 3: the impact that his stuff has had and then figuring out,
[23:39] Speaker 3: how on earth do I go about, you know, untangling
[23:43] Speaker 3: this web I have woven.
[23:44] Speaker 2: I get this. So there's not a requirement for other
[23:46] Speaker 2: people to say, Okay, well now it's all you know,
[23:50] Speaker 2: no harm, no foul, that it's really about him.
[23:53] Speaker 3: If you're going to take accountability, you've got to recognize
[23:57] Speaker 3: that that's an action you take. You don't expect anything
[24:01] Speaker 3: from anybody else. You may not get anything from anybody else,
[24:04] Speaker 3: and if you do, you're very lucky. But it's you saying,
[24:08] Speaker 3: regardless of the responses from everybody else, this is what's right,
[24:13] Speaker 3: and this is what I'm going to do to make
[24:15] Speaker 3: it right.
[24:16] Speaker 2: It's almost like I'd spoken about this a few years ago,
[24:19] Speaker 2: about these former Nazis, right, the white supremacist I forget
[24:23] Speaker 2: his name off the top of my head, Batiata swastika
[24:26] Speaker 2: actually tattooed to his face, and he was just filled
[24:29] Speaker 2: with venom, and in the course of his life realized
[24:33] Speaker 2: that he had been wrong, and he spent a year
[24:36] Speaker 2: and a half having those hate tattoos lasered off of
[24:40] Speaker 2: his body. It was just a horrifying process, but he
[24:43] Speaker 2: endured the whole thing and then committed the rest of
[24:45] Speaker 2: his life to countering the white supremacy and the bigotry
[24:50] Speaker 2: and speaking out against the Klan and doing all those
[24:53] Speaker 2: other things. The people that he had wronged when he
[24:55] Speaker 2: was a racist have no obligation to forgive him or
[24:59] Speaker 2: give him any quarter, but he is now working in
[25:02] Speaker 2: a restorative justice capacity to try to undo the damage
[25:06] Speaker 2: done and to try to speak to better values. Am
[25:10] Speaker 2: I on your page, Sarah?
[25:12] Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, and helping other people also leave those hate
[25:17] Speaker 3: filled spaces and do better.
[25:19] Speaker 2: Let's just talk philosophically here. I have heard it said,
[25:23] Speaker 2: and I don't think I agree. I understand where it
[25:26] Speaker 2: comes from. But some people say intention doesn't matter, it's
[25:29] Speaker 2: only the results. So if you harm somebody with the
[25:32] Speaker 2: best of intentions, the harm is still real. I think
[25:35] Speaker 2: that's true. Like my mother and father, fundy evangelical, hell
[25:39] Speaker 2: fire preacher type people. They were sincere. They had the
[25:43] Speaker 2: best of intentions to train up a child, but they
[25:46] Speaker 2: did some harm, real harm, and their good intentions don't
[25:50] Speaker 2: negate that. But I think you treat somebody acting with
[25:55] Speaker 2: an intent to help, even if they're wrong or brainwashed them.
[26:00] Speaker 2: I think differently than you would with someone who was
[26:03] Speaker 2: operating with malice. Intention does matter to me? Does it
[26:09] Speaker 2: matter to you?
[26:12] Speaker 3: I love this question. Intention can be very important to
[26:18] Speaker 3: communicate to the other side. It can help sometimes relieve
[26:26] Speaker 3: some of the pain that comes when somebody thinks that
[26:29] Speaker 3: that impact was actually intended to No, oh, it was
[26:32] Speaker 3: an accident. To some degree, it can help them at
[26:36] Speaker 3: least understand the perspective of the other person. And understanding
[26:39] Speaker 3: the perspective of the other person engaging some empathy, whether
[26:43] Speaker 3: you were the person who caused the harm or the
[26:47] Speaker 3: person who received the harm, just understanding where the other
[26:50] Speaker 3: person is coming from helps you, guys, get to more
[26:55] Speaker 3: of the same page, more of like here's the reality,
[26:58] Speaker 3: and it helps. I don't know how to describe it,
[27:04] Speaker 3: but it helps kind of like sometimes loosen some of
[27:06] Speaker 3: the the hold that that pain has on you. If
[27:13] Speaker 3: that helps. But you know, in terms of the impact,
[27:16] Speaker 3: if you've caused an impact to somebody, you know we
[27:21] Speaker 3: can help you find ways to restore to repair that harm.
[27:29] Speaker 3: Because you don't get out of that just by saying oh,
[27:32] Speaker 3: I didn't mean to You still have to take actions.
[27:35] Speaker 3: You still have to acknowledge and validate that you caused harm.
[27:39] Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's finish here by really defining what's going on,
[27:45] Speaker 2: so as I understand it and correct me. You got
[27:48] Speaker 2: to use small words with me when you speak, use
[27:50] Speaker 2: your hands, talk to me like you would a child, Sarah. Okay,
[27:54] Speaker 2: So if someone, if somebody just wants to get in
[27:58] Speaker 2: front of it and say whatever I do. I want
[27:59] Speaker 2: to be a good steward like I feel this. I
[28:02] Speaker 2: know so many people in the movement feel this. It's
[28:04] Speaker 2: an honor to do what we do. We know we
[28:06] Speaker 2: are in some ways influencers. We want to make sure
[28:08] Speaker 2: that we are really good stewards of that and remain
[28:11] Speaker 2: accountable because we are public figures setting an example blah
[28:14] Speaker 2: blah blah. And so someone like me comes to you
[28:17] Speaker 2: and I say, look, I will go through your program.
[28:21] Speaker 2: And then if somebody anywhere was to have an issue,
[28:25] Speaker 2: rather than I don't know, nuke me on Facebook or
[28:31] Speaker 2: maybe contact me directly and tell me what a piece
[28:33] Speaker 2: of shit I am or whatever, you would be a
[28:36] Speaker 2: resource where they could actually go through you, and then
[28:40] Speaker 2: you are able to see through the fog of war.
[28:43] Speaker 2: You're able to provide kind of guidelines, and the same
[28:46] Speaker 2: is true for other people if they want to go
[28:49] Speaker 2: through and sort of set themselves up with a tool
[28:52] Speaker 2: set for problem solving and getting in front of all
[28:56] Speaker 2: of this. Have I understood, Sarah?
[28:59] Speaker 3: Yes? And I want to really emphasize our position as
[29:03] Speaker 3: that neutral third party in between, because if somebody is upset,
[29:08] Speaker 3: sometimes they can come at you with a lot of heat.
[29:10] Speaker 3: They can bring that to us, and we can absorb
[29:12] Speaker 3: that impact instead and just hand the information to the
[29:16] Speaker 3: other person. It can really reduce the instinct to be defensive,
[29:22] Speaker 3: and it can reduce the I don't want to say
[29:26] Speaker 3: splash damage, but like the impact that you receive when
[29:29] Speaker 3: someone comes and calls you a bunch of names in
[29:31] Speaker 3: your inbox to be able to say, anybody who's got
[29:35] Speaker 3: an issue, please go, let can know. I actually want
[29:38] Speaker 3: you to please go. Let can know because they'll help
[29:40] Speaker 3: me parse through it and they'll help me make sure
[29:43] Speaker 3: that I do a good job and that I have
[29:44] Speaker 3: good information. Because I also feel like in this day
[29:47] Speaker 3: and age, people have a lot that matters to them,
[29:51] Speaker 3: and they might come to you with an issue that's
[29:54] Speaker 3: very important to them about your content, but that maybe
[29:59] Speaker 3: isn't quite to big ish to you, getting to connect
[30:03] Speaker 3: you with different you know, resources or education, or just
[30:07] Speaker 3: define where you want your content to bend for people
[30:11] Speaker 3: versus where you've got to say, you know, I do
[30:13] Speaker 3: understand that that's you know, like I've had people say
[30:18] Speaker 3: you shouldn't call anyone stupid. This is a word that
[30:21] Speaker 3: can be ablest, it can be impactful, but other people
[30:25] Speaker 3: are going to draw their lines in different places and say,
[30:27] Speaker 3: you know, it's part of my humor, it's part of
[30:29] Speaker 3: my like vibe, or I just want to be able
[30:32] Speaker 3: to say when I think something is stupid.
[30:37] Speaker 2: We're not Marjorie Taylor Green appears on my radar and
[30:41] Speaker 2: you will hear the word it's part of my lexicon.
[30:45] Speaker 3: We we are not micromanagers of these things. These are
[30:50] Speaker 3: things that are for the content creator to decide for themselves.
[30:54] Speaker 3: What kind of content do I.
[30:55] Speaker 2: Want to create?
[30:55] Speaker 3: You will naturally curate an audience who likes to listen
[30:59] Speaker 3: to you content, and together you guys figure out where
[31:04] Speaker 3: are our boundaries? What kind of content do we create?
[31:07] Speaker 3: The Creator Accountability Network is extremely supportive of all kinds
[31:11] Speaker 3: of transgressive art. Transgressive arts tiptoes right up to all
[31:16] Speaker 3: the boundaries onlines, and sometimes it crosses over, and we're
[31:19] Speaker 3: there to help people recognize when it's gone too far,
[31:21] Speaker 3: when it's crossed something, when they just didn't know something
[31:24] Speaker 3: and they misstepped.
[31:27] Speaker 2: Transgressive art is a term I've never heard before. I'm
[31:32] Speaker 2: got to chew on that one. Like I'm the mister
[31:35] Speaker 2: Rogers of the movement, right, Nobody worries about me. I mean,
[31:38] Speaker 2: there occasionally I'll get somebody who gets themselves in a wad,
[31:42] Speaker 2: but really, I'm not the guy that people go to
[31:46] Speaker 2: for controversial content. Doesn't make any sense, you know, just
[31:50] Speaker 2: this vanilla type dude.
[31:53] Speaker 3: But think of all the comedians that you know, Yeah,
[31:57] Speaker 3: like just being a comedian, a comedian in j general,
[32:01] Speaker 3: you are likely making some sort of transgressive art. You
[32:04] Speaker 3: are making some sort of jokes that are going to
[32:07] Speaker 3: bother somebody.
[32:09] Speaker 2: I mean, the envelope is there, and part of their
[32:11] Speaker 2: job is to push it and sometimes push through it
[32:13] Speaker 2: and push past it. And I think in a lot
[32:16] Speaker 2: of cases, good for them, right, And in some other cases,
[32:19] Speaker 2: especially when I think George Carlin is talking about, when
[32:22] Speaker 2: they're punching down toward marginalized groups and people under threat,
[32:26] Speaker 2: that's when I think we cross another one of those lines,
[32:30] Speaker 2: but it's situational. I know a lot of it is subjective.
[32:34] Speaker 2: One more short break and then I'm going to connect
[32:36] Speaker 2: you or Sarah will connect you to the Creator Accountability
[32:40] Speaker 2: Network if you want. You can sort of go through
[32:42] Speaker 2: the program either if you create content on YouTube, TikTok, etc.
[32:47] Speaker 2: Or you're on the other end of those streams. Stand
[32:51] Speaker 2: by talking here with Sarah tu Leans as the executive
[33:01] Speaker 2: director of the Creator Accountability Network. How do people participate?
[33:09] Speaker 2: If someone wanted to reach out, contact sign up begin
[33:12] Speaker 2: the process, how would they do so?
[33:16] Speaker 3: You can go to our website, Creator Accountabilitynetwork dot org.
[33:20] Speaker 3: We've got links all over the place. If you are
[33:22] Speaker 3: a content creator or a community leader, you can sign
[33:26] Speaker 3: up to start the credentialing process. If you are a
[33:31] Speaker 3: community member who's experienced harm, you can call our hotline.
[33:37] Speaker 3: If the person who caused the harm is a credentialed creator,
[33:41] Speaker 3: we can then work our program with our investigators, our
[33:44] Speaker 3: ethics panel, our mediators and help resolve that issue. If
[33:48] Speaker 3: they're not credentialed, you can still make a report. Our
[33:53] Speaker 3: victim advocates can still talk to you on the hotline
[33:55] Speaker 3: and maybe help you find any local resources if you
[33:58] Speaker 3: need so, if you need a crisis, if you need
[34:01] Speaker 3: medical care, if you just need, you know, to talk
[34:04] Speaker 3: through whatever happened. That report can still stay in our database.
[34:09] Speaker 3: We won't do anything with it, but if that person
[34:11] Speaker 3: gets credentialed later on, we can come back and address
[34:16] Speaker 3: that issue.
[34:16] Speaker 2: Then, last thought, I was just reading an article by
[34:21] Speaker 2: the editor of the Skeptic magazine, and there was somebody
[34:25] Speaker 2: on TikTok who was unfairly editing him or deep faking
[34:30] Speaker 2: him or something endorsing flat earth, and so he had
[34:34] Speaker 2: to publish an article saying this is not me. I
[34:38] Speaker 2: am not a flat earther. So another layer to this
[34:41] Speaker 2: onion is we are moving into the era when anybody
[34:46] Speaker 2: anywhere can be made to do and say anything, and
[34:49] Speaker 2: we've got to somehow navigate what happened and what is
[34:52] Speaker 2: real and who's hiding behind. Oh, I didn't really do it,
[34:56] Speaker 2: it's AI And then what if they didn't really do
[34:59] Speaker 2: it and it's a I mean, I don't know. It's
[35:01] Speaker 2: the wild West out there, Sarah. Do you guys ever
[35:03] Speaker 2: talking about that kind of stuff.
[35:06] Speaker 3: That's a very interesting question. I've never had to think.
[35:09] Speaker 3: I've never had to think, what if our content creator
[35:12] Speaker 3: did something bad and then claims that it was really
[35:16] Speaker 3: just AI and a deep fake and no I didn't.
[35:19] Speaker 2: I'm telling you. We saw I think Donald Trump did it.
[35:23] Speaker 2: Somebody had a video record of them saying or doing
[35:27] Speaker 2: something that was either ridiculous or offensive, and it was like, Ah,
[35:31] Speaker 2: that's just Ai. My enemies are going after me. And
[35:34] Speaker 2: it's this weird, strange new world where, you know, beyond
[35:39] Speaker 2: our eyes and ears, we have to be skeptics in
[35:42] Speaker 2: this whole deeper way. I do think it's possible to
[35:45] Speaker 2: determine what has and has not happened, but it's going
[35:48] Speaker 2: to take a lot of due diligence. Fortunately, it sounds
[35:51] Speaker 2: like you guys are really committed, and I love the
[35:54] Speaker 2: idea of the Creator Accountability Network. I'm in sign me up.
[35:58] Speaker 2: Let's you know, let me help. I don't know how
[36:00] Speaker 2: old the program is, but I'd like to be I'd
[36:02] Speaker 2: like to be a part of that. I think it's
[36:04] Speaker 2: pretty cool and I think it sends a message to everybody. Look,
[36:06] Speaker 2: we're all acting in good faith, we all want the
[36:08] Speaker 2: same thing. We're all human, and I think this is
[36:11] Speaker 2: our way of assuring you that that is very much
[36:15] Speaker 2: the case, any final thoughts on the program or the
[36:18] Speaker 2: group before we call it a night, Just.
[36:23] Speaker 3: To reiterate that the more people who join and sign up,
[36:29] Speaker 3: the more word of us spreads. So you joining, you
[36:34] Speaker 3: having me on, I'm very grateful because it helps other
[36:37] Speaker 3: people hear about us. If anybody who's listening is passionate
[36:42] Speaker 3: about this concept about keeping our community safe and wants
[36:46] Speaker 3: to volunteer with us, we have a lot of needs
[36:48] Speaker 3: for volunteers because we are expanding exponentially, we're growing a lot.
[36:54] Speaker 3: We pay for victim advocacy training for volunteers, So if
[36:59] Speaker 3: you are past about victim advocacy would like to become one,
[37:04] Speaker 3: we can help you become a victim advocate so we
[37:06] Speaker 3: help there be more victim advocates in the world. But
[37:10] Speaker 3: also if you have any skills and investigations, or are
[37:14] Speaker 3: interested in ethics or mediation, or just really good at
[37:18] Speaker 3: managing social media. If you're passionate about our mission at all,
[37:23] Speaker 3: we can find a space for you. You can come
[37:26] Speaker 3: volunteer with us. We've got a volunteer form on our website.
[37:30] Speaker 3: If you're passionate and don't have time to volunteer, but
[37:33] Speaker 3: you have extra money. We are a nonprofit and people
[37:38] Speaker 3: don't pay for our services. We do this work for
[37:41] Speaker 3: free for content creators. We give these trainings for free.
[37:44] Speaker 3: We credential people for free. We do all our investigations,
[37:49] Speaker 3: all our mediation, all our work for free for them.
[37:51] Speaker 3: So we are entirely supported by our community members. So
[37:55] Speaker 3: we need combinations of you know, small dons who donate
[38:01] Speaker 3: monthly on recurring donations or large donations. We just had
[38:05] Speaker 3: a fundraiser in April. We've got another one coming up
[38:08] Speaker 3: in either October or November. So if you want to
[38:12] Speaker 3: support us financially, we really need the help.
[38:16] Speaker 2: Sarah Tootline of the Creator Accountability Network Creator Accountabilitynetwork dot
[38:23] Speaker 2: org sounds like good stuff to me. Thanks for talking
[38:26] Speaker 2: to us and all my best with the project.
[38:29] Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Sah.
[38:30] Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a
[38:33] Speaker 1: complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and
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[38:45] Speaker 1: and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com

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