# Can State Laws Protect Us? (with Mickey Dollens)

An episode of [TheThinkingAtheist](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/412308695), 13 Feb 2026, 19 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/mgln.ai/e/711/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/70038454/podcast859_mickeydollens.mp3

Mickey Dollens is the Regional Government Affairs Manager for the Freedom From Religion Foundation. FFRF is on the front lines to protect state/church separation. https://ffrfaction.org/ KPOP ACT Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/thethinkingatheist--3270347/support.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: This is just a bonus broadcast this week runs about
[0:04] Speaker 1: twenty minutes with a very special guest from f fr
[0:08] Speaker 1: F and Joy.
[0:14] Speaker 2: The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
[0:18] Speaker 2: an idea.
[0:19] Speaker 3: The population of atheists this country is going through.
[0:22] Speaker 2: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If
[0:28] Speaker 2: I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not.
[0:31] Speaker 1: Because I put my hand on a book and made
[0:33] Speaker 1: a wish.
[0:34] Speaker 2: And working together for a more rational world.
[0:38] Speaker 1: Take the risk of thinking, feel so much more happiness.
[0:41] Speaker 1: Truth Fusian wisdom will come to you that way.
[0:44] Speaker 2: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
[0:52] Speaker 2: Thinking Atheist podcast, hosted by Seth Andrews.
[1:05] Speaker 1: Did you know that there are blasphemy laws on the
[1:08] Speaker 1: books in this country? Now? I always think about like
[1:12] Speaker 1: the blue laws. You know, you can't have an ice
[1:14] Speaker 1: cream cone in your pocket on a Sunday and stuff
[1:16] Speaker 1: like that, and you know, the more benign stuff that
[1:19] Speaker 1: doesn't really get noticed. But no, no, there are actual
[1:23] Speaker 1: blasphemy laws. This is not an Islamic state. This is
[1:27] Speaker 1: the United States. Wait a minute, I'm going to talk
[1:29] Speaker 1: about this and a whole lot more with a friend
[1:32] Speaker 1: of mine and somebody who is the regional government Affairs
[1:35] Speaker 1: manager at FFRAF, the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Hey, Mickey Dollins,
[1:41] Speaker 1: good to see you, Mickey.
[1:43] Speaker 3: Seth, great to be on the show.
[1:45] Speaker 1: Tell me what a regional government Affairs manager is and does,
[1:50] Speaker 1: would you?
[1:51] Speaker 4: Well, I'm sure many people are familiar with Freedom from
[1:53] Speaker 4: Religion Foundations work. We work to educate society on nontheistic issues.
[1:59] Speaker 4: We uphold the constitutional principle of the separation of state
[2:02] Speaker 4: and church. And on the C four side, the policy
[2:05] Speaker 4: team that I'm part of, we advocate for commis sence legislation.
[2:10] Speaker 4: We're actually on the offense of this year, and we
[2:12] Speaker 4: also fight a ton of bad legislation.
[2:15] Speaker 3: Seth.
[2:15] Speaker 4: I know, being from Oklahoma, you're very familiar with all
[2:19] Speaker 4: the bad theocratic legislation. But it's not just here, it's
[2:22] Speaker 4: across the entire nation.
[2:24] Speaker 1: Yea, my home state like Texas, Tennessee, Louisiana and others
[2:28] Speaker 1: are just constantly trying to ram the Ten Commandments into
[2:32] Speaker 1: public institutions. And so if they get defeated, then they
[2:36] Speaker 1: go back and they kind of rewrite the proposal or
[2:39] Speaker 1: bill and try again and try again.
[2:42] Speaker 3: Just will not go away.
[2:44] Speaker 1: I know FLFRAF has been involved in some of the
[2:46] Speaker 1: Ten Commandment stuff, right.
[2:48] Speaker 3: Oh, you're exactly right.
[2:50] Speaker 4: Ten Commandments is a popular one. Inserting school chaplains and
[2:54] Speaker 4: replacement of trained mental health professionals is a big one.
[2:57] Speaker 4: But what this ultimately gets at is chipping away long
[3:00] Speaker 4: established Supreme Court ruling centered around the Establishment Clause. And
[3:06] Speaker 4: so in a proactive way, we've taken an offensive approach
[3:11] Speaker 4: in codifying those long standing Supreme Court precedents centered around
[3:16] Speaker 4: the Establishment Clause, and we've written a piece of legislation
[3:21] Speaker 4: that would codify those into state law.
[3:24] Speaker 1: The establishment clause. Congress shall make no law respecting the
[3:28] Speaker 1: establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise.
[3:32] Speaker 3: There.
[3:32] Speaker 1: I have a lot of Christian nationalists like to grab
[3:35] Speaker 1: the free exercise. Well, we're free then to have a
[3:39] Speaker 1: Christian nation. It's a weird bending. I know Andrew Seidel,
[3:42] Speaker 1: constitutional attorney, has done a lot of writing about this
[3:46] Speaker 1: kind of thing. You've probably heard that as well, Like
[3:49] Speaker 1: the free exercise means, hey, if all of our politicians
[3:53] Speaker 1: or most of them profess Christianity, then we're Christian.
[3:57] Speaker 3: Right.
[3:58] Speaker 4: Yeah, that seems to be the talking points going around,
[4:02] Speaker 4: especially a lot of red states. For example, there's a
[4:05] Speaker 4: handful of states that have resolutions that declare their state
[4:08] Speaker 4: is under the kingship of Jesus Christ, that they derive
[4:12] Speaker 4: their moralities from the New Testament. Unfortunately, this is exclusionary
[4:18] Speaker 4: to not just people with minority religions, but those who
[4:21] Speaker 4: have no faith at all, who do not practice a religion,
[4:24] Speaker 4: who are non religious, which is about one third of
[4:27] Speaker 4: the total population of America. And so we know that
[4:30] Speaker 4: the best way to protect people's religious freedoms is to
[4:33] Speaker 4: keep government out of religion and religion out of government.
[4:36] Speaker 4: And we have an incredibly talented staff across the board
[4:40] Speaker 4: at FFRF who help uphold those constitutional principles.
[4:45] Speaker 1: It's always fun to talk about the Ten Commandments in
[4:48] Speaker 1: this Christian nationalist notion that they belong in our public institutions.
[4:52] Speaker 1: And so are you like, fine, okay, well off the cough.
[4:54] Speaker 1: Can you name them? And statistically most believers can't name
[4:59] Speaker 1: even so I think it's mostly about marketing territory. Tell
[5:04] Speaker 1: me about k pop. What in the world is k pop?
[5:08] Speaker 1: What's that about?
[5:09] Speaker 4: We created k pop, which is an acronym for keep
[5:12] Speaker 4: proselytizing out of public schools. And this is really unique
[5:17] Speaker 4: in that we're taking an offensive approach, and this is
[5:19] Speaker 4: a collaborative effort with the American Atheist and the American
[5:23] Speaker 4: Humanists Association, and we wanted to be able to present
[5:27] Speaker 4: lawmakers an opportunity to uphold Supreme Court precedent centered around
[5:32] Speaker 4: the Establishment Clause to protect religious neutrality in government, especially
[5:37] Speaker 4: in public schools.
[5:39] Speaker 1: Some of these attempts are pretty sneaky. I'm a big
[5:42] Speaker 1: fan of Katherine Stewart, journalist and author, and she wrote
[5:45] Speaker 1: about the Good News clubs that were around years and
[5:48] Speaker 1: years ago, and where they kind of sneak in and say, hey, kids,
[5:52] Speaker 1: we've got some fun stuff going on after school, and
[5:56] Speaker 1: the parents had no idea that beneath all the fun
[5:59] Speaker 1: and activity and coloring books and snacks and everything else,
[6:02] Speaker 1: there was a Christian nationalist agenda. I'm guessing you I
[6:06] Speaker 1: know FFRF has, but I'm speaking to you personally. You've
[6:09] Speaker 1: seen some of these I'll call them shady. I mean,
[6:12] Speaker 1: they're not exactly fourth right. In some cases, they're just
[6:15] Speaker 1: kind of sneaking and saying, hey, this will be great
[6:17] Speaker 1: for the kids.
[6:18] Speaker 3: Right. Yeah.
[6:19] Speaker 4: Every year, there are hundreds of theocratic bills that are
[6:22] Speaker 4: introduced in states around the country, and I'd say about
[6:25] Speaker 4: seventy percent of those are focused at the elementary and
[6:28] Speaker 4: school aged level. The reason being because children are young, impressionable,
[6:32] Speaker 4: and they have vulnerable minds, and they assume that if
[6:35] Speaker 4: they can indoctrinate them at a young age, then they
[6:38] Speaker 4: can force upon them a very narrow religious perspective that's
[6:44] Speaker 4: rooted in Christian nationalism.
[6:47] Speaker 1: Do you probably saw the recent headlines about the National
[6:51] Speaker 1: Prayer Breakfast, which why is our government hosting? You know,
[6:55] Speaker 1: why for decades has the United States had a National
[7:00] Speaker 1: Prayer Breakfast? And of course they're not doing Islamic prayers
[7:03] Speaker 1: or Hindu prayers. It's always, you know, Christian prayers. And
[7:05] Speaker 1: then Trump weaponizes it to essentially go after his political enemies.
[7:11] Speaker 1: I mean a lot of I mean a lot of
[7:13] Speaker 1: people say, can you talk religion instead of politics? But
[7:16] Speaker 1: the two you cannot extricate them. Right, if you're talking
[7:20] Speaker 1: about religion, certainly Christian nationalism, you're talking politics, right.
[7:24] Speaker 3: That's true.
[7:25] Speaker 4: And Mark dan is FFRF's federal policy director, and he
[7:30] Speaker 4: did an incredible job of leading faith coalitions and non
[7:34] Speaker 4: religious coalitions into signing on to a letter that really
[7:38] Speaker 4: laid out what the National Prayer Breakfast has become, which
[7:41] Speaker 4: is a platform for maga Christianity to basically give Trump
[7:47] Speaker 4: an additional platform to talk just about everything except the
[7:52] Speaker 4: fundamentals of Christianity.
[7:54] Speaker 3: We heard some remarks in.
[7:55] Speaker 4: That he said he quote couldn't see how anyone could
[7:58] Speaker 4: call themselves a democrat and be a Christian and YadA YadA,
[8:02] Speaker 4: And so we were very successful in getting a lot
[8:05] Speaker 4: of congressional members to not attend the Prayer Breakfast. We
[8:09] Speaker 4: worked close with Congressman Jared Huffman, who did a great
[8:13] Speaker 4: job in explaining why this isn't a traditional faith based initiative,
[8:18] Speaker 4: but more so of a political ideology that's been weaponized
[8:22] Speaker 4: to amplify megapolitics.
[8:24] Speaker 3: And so we are.
[8:25] Speaker 4: Seeing the we're seeing the enrollment and the attendance for
[8:30] Speaker 4: that drop off because people.
[8:32] Speaker 3: Are becoming aware of what it really is. And we
[8:35] Speaker 3: were happy to see that maybe one day it.
[8:37] Speaker 1: Will be like the Milania movie and be a few
[8:40] Speaker 1: people who go and.
[8:42] Speaker 4: Or people are on Craigslist pay others fifty dollars to
[8:44] Speaker 4: attend the National Prayer Breakfast.
[8:46] Speaker 1: Fail at the box. Let the Prayer Breakfast fail at
[8:49] Speaker 1: the box. Office. That's all. That's all I'm saying. I
[8:51] Speaker 1: want to get into trying to protect children from anti science,
[8:57] Speaker 1: anti vax you know, the anti medice and initiatives that
[9:02] Speaker 1: are going on. Can you. I mean, tell me about
[9:06] Speaker 1: some of the politicians at whatever level, local, state, federal,
[9:13] Speaker 1: who are on the front lines for secular activism. I'm
[9:16] Speaker 1: always seeing Jamie Raskin out there, but I mean, are
[9:19] Speaker 1: there some people out there who have impressed you?
[9:22] Speaker 3: Oh?
[9:22] Speaker 4: There are so many secular lawmakers are becoming more and
[9:26] Speaker 4: more outspoken. At the congressional level, we have the Freethought
[9:30] Speaker 4: Caucus that continues to grow, and they're elevating their platform
[9:35] Speaker 4: to raise serious concerns. Many states still have religious exemptions
[9:39] Speaker 4: for child protection laws, and we believe that religious beliefs
[9:43] Speaker 4: does not override a child's right to safety and health.
[9:46] Speaker 4: And that's why we've authored the CHARM Act. It stands
[9:49] Speaker 4: for Children Have a Right to Medicine Act, and this
[9:52] Speaker 4: bill would repeal those religious exemptions for parents who don't
[9:56] Speaker 4: get the necessary medical treatment for their children when they're sick.
[10:00] Speaker 4: For example, there was a case innic Wisconsin in two
[10:04] Speaker 4: thousand and.
[10:04] Speaker 3: Eight where a child had diabetes.
[10:07] Speaker 4: The family refused to get medical treatment because their congregation
[10:11] Speaker 4: at their church was praying the diabetes away, and unfortunately,
[10:16] Speaker 4: that little girl passed away. And that's just one of many,
[10:19] Speaker 4: many examples that we have, these just terrible tragedies where
[10:25] Speaker 4: children aren't getting the right to medicine, they're not getting
[10:27] Speaker 4: the treatment they need because of because of religious beliefs,
[10:32] Speaker 4: and the parents who fail to get their children the
[10:34] Speaker 4: treatment are exempted from any type of penalty or law
[10:39] Speaker 4: because of the religious exemptions.
[10:41] Speaker 3: And we want to repeal that.
[10:42] Speaker 4: We want to make sure that first and foremost children
[10:45] Speaker 4: have access to health and that they can stay safe
[10:49] Speaker 4: even in religious environments.
[10:53] Speaker 1: I'll continue with Mickey Dollins, the Regional Government Affairs manager
[10:57] Speaker 1: for the Freedom from Religion Foundation. To second, I appreciate
[11:08] Speaker 1: you listening so very much. I continue speaking here with
[11:11] Speaker 1: Mickey Dollands is the regional Government Affairs manager for the
[11:16] Speaker 1: Freedom From Religion Foundation. I mentioned at the beginning of
[11:20] Speaker 1: the conversation blasphemy laws, so we should talk about that now.
[11:25] Speaker 1: I used to think this was just blue law stuff
[11:28] Speaker 1: tucked away ignored.
[11:30] Speaker 4: No, Mickey, well, first, so everyone's aware of blasphemy is
[11:35] Speaker 4: when someone is critical or disrespectful of one's religion or
[11:40] Speaker 4: someone's deity, and in other countries this is punishable by death.
[11:45] Speaker 4: We've been working with the ex Muslims of North America
[11:49] Speaker 4: to get lawmakers to repeal the five remaining blasphemy laws
[11:53] Speaker 4: on the books in the United States of America. You
[11:55] Speaker 4: may wonder, like, why are these still around? Well, I
[11:58] Speaker 4: think Salem, Massachusetts back during the witch trials. Back then,
[12:02] Speaker 4: blasphemy was punishable by a hot iron rod stuck straight
[12:06] Speaker 4: through the tongue. At one point, it was punishable by drowning,
[12:09] Speaker 4: of course, and so while it's unenforceable today, it is
[12:14] Speaker 4: still symbolic, especially for people who are members of ex
[12:18] Speaker 4: Muslims of North America, who let many who have escaped
[12:22] Speaker 4: countries where they could be punished by death for being blasphemous.
[12:27] Speaker 4: You look at this state of politics now and you say, hey,
[12:30] Speaker 4: we still have blasphemy laws on the books in five states.
[12:34] Speaker 4: We don't want to go down that road. So it's
[12:36] Speaker 4: best it's just to get them repealed right off the books.
[12:39] Speaker 1: I'm reminded of the license plate controversies. Wasn't all that
[12:43] Speaker 1: long ago somebody wanted to put atheist or godless or
[12:46] Speaker 1: something on a license plate, and they were rejected, and
[12:50] Speaker 1: it became like this big, big thing you're talking about blasphemy,
[12:54] Speaker 1: you know, with Trump's memorandum saying that they were going
[12:58] Speaker 1: to go after anybody in anything that was anti Christian,
[13:03] Speaker 1: anti American, anti capitalists. So I guess Jesus is a
[13:07] Speaker 1: free market capitalist. But I'm like, okay, well, what's anti
[13:11] Speaker 1: Christian mean? Doesn't mean anybody critical of Christianity because that
[13:14] Speaker 1: includes moderate progressive Christians going after Christian nationalism. Right, So
[13:19] Speaker 1: this I don't know if it's legally enforceable, but it
[13:22] Speaker 1: certainly sets the tone anti American, anti capitalist, anti Christian.
[13:27] Speaker 3: Could be me right exactly. An ambiguity is the point.
[13:32] Speaker 4: The idea is to chill free speech, to make people
[13:37] Speaker 4: less braverable to be outspoken. And you do that by
[13:41] Speaker 4: putting out these ambiguous executive orders that no one can
[13:46] Speaker 4: really pin down, but they could use them in any
[13:48] Speaker 4: way they want if the circumstance.
[13:50] Speaker 1: Arise, Anything else on your plate before I direct everybody,
[13:54] Speaker 1: because I want them to support FFRF and these initiatives
[13:57] Speaker 1: as well, But anything else that we need to know about,
[14:00] Speaker 1: at least here on the front.
[14:02] Speaker 4: Well, the Great thing about the k Pop Act or
[14:05] Speaker 4: the Student Cycler Bill of Rights and the CHARM Act
[14:08] Speaker 4: Children have a Right to Medicine is that this is
[14:11] Speaker 4: model legislation. And for anyone who's listening to this, you
[14:14] Speaker 4: have a state senator, you have a state representative, reach
[14:17] Speaker 4: out to us at f frfaction dot org. We can
[14:21] Speaker 4: connect you with the model language. We can give you
[14:24] Speaker 4: our toolkits that will assist your lawmakers in introducing this language.
[14:28] Speaker 4: And we will be better off by having these Supreme
[14:33] Speaker 4: Court precedents codified in the state law. So unfortunately, in
[14:39] Speaker 4: the kind of likely event that they are overturned or
[14:42] Speaker 4: continue to be chopped away at you will in your
[14:46] Speaker 4: state retain those religious freedoms and protections at the state level.
[14:52] Speaker 4: So reach out to us at f frfaction dot org.
[14:55] Speaker 4: We'd love to give you the toolkits and assist your
[14:58] Speaker 4: lawmakers in introducing this legislation.
[15:00] Speaker 1: I read an article recently about how autocrats and oligarchs
[15:05] Speaker 1: and even tyrants will sometimes provide a way for people
[15:10] Speaker 1: to rant and be exasperated social media. I guess, but
[15:16] Speaker 1: they lock off their opportunities to actually affect change.
[15:21] Speaker 3: Right.
[15:21] Speaker 1: Oh, let them whine and that'll keep them busy and
[15:24] Speaker 1: then will actually lock off any opportunities for them to
[15:28] Speaker 1: affect positive change, to resist. And yet FFRF is providing
[15:33] Speaker 1: an avenue for that. So instead of just sitting around
[15:36] Speaker 1: cursing the darkness, wondering how bad it's going to get,
[15:39] Speaker 1: we have to get in the game. We have to
[15:41] Speaker 1: reach out, We have to engage our elected officials. So
[15:45] Speaker 1: I know some people who are even running for office.
[15:47] Speaker 1: This has motivated them. You've probably seen that as well.
[15:50] Speaker 1: You've seen a lot of folks who've been watching the
[15:51] Speaker 1: news and they decided, screw this, I'm going.
[15:54] Speaker 4: To get in the game right absolutely, and I would
[15:57] Speaker 4: encourage many secular people to also run for office.
[16:00] Speaker 3: In states like Oklahoma and Texas.
[16:03] Speaker 4: Many may assume just because they're non religious, they're automatically
[16:06] Speaker 4: disqualified from being a competitor for public office. That's absolutely
[16:10] Speaker 4: not true. Your constituents are going to care more about
[16:13] Speaker 4: how hard you work for them during the week than
[16:15] Speaker 4: what you do on Sunday morning. And so if you
[16:18] Speaker 4: want to run for office, you definitely should. If you
[16:21] Speaker 4: just want to advocate, keep calling, keep emailing. You've seen
[16:24] Speaker 4: how this is making a difference, so continue speaking up.
[16:27] Speaker 4: If you live near a capital, you can attend committee hearings,
[16:30] Speaker 4: you can testify, live in some states. There's so many
[16:34] Speaker 4: opportunities for you to use your voice. And that's why
[16:37] Speaker 4: we wanted to empower you with these model legislations that
[16:41] Speaker 4: you can take to your state elected's and ask them
[16:43] Speaker 4: to pass, and we will be right there to help
[16:45] Speaker 4: you every step of the way.
[16:48] Speaker 1: Hey, I know we're supposed to be done, but I
[16:50] Speaker 1: got to ask this cynical question. Does it make a
[16:53] Speaker 1: difference now if I write a letter or make a
[16:55] Speaker 1: phone call? Don't they have some menion and they're like, okay,
[16:59] Speaker 1: thanks for all and click and then they just go
[17:01] Speaker 1: do whatever they want to do anyway.
[17:05] Speaker 4: You know a lot of people think that, and there
[17:08] Speaker 4: are some lawmakers who are going to ignore it. But
[17:10] Speaker 4: I have people that I have talked to in the
[17:14] Speaker 4: past who have just been very consistent and reaching out
[17:17] Speaker 4: to those lawmakers, having in person meetings, calling and hey,
[17:21] Speaker 4: if ultimately you continue to get a brick wall, you
[17:25] Speaker 4: may be the one to run against them. So and
[17:28] Speaker 4: also I would differentiate between the federal level and the
[17:32] Speaker 4: state level. There's so many bad things happening at the
[17:35] Speaker 4: federal level. And yes, you can should continue to call
[17:37] Speaker 4: your congress person and you're us senator, but do not
[17:41] Speaker 4: neglect what's happening at your own state level, in your
[17:44] Speaker 4: own local municipality, at your own school board, because that's
[17:48] Speaker 4: a great place not only to start if you're going
[17:51] Speaker 4: to run for office, but also in a great place
[17:54] Speaker 4: to start when reaching out to those who are elected,
[17:56] Speaker 4: to amplify your voice, to be your voice in the
[18:00] Speaker 4: decision making process. And at the state level, it's much
[18:03] Speaker 4: more easy to get in person meetings, meet at a diner,
[18:07] Speaker 4: you can meet at a coffee shop, or even at
[18:09] Speaker 4: their office. But don't give up. We've got a lot
[18:12] Speaker 4: of resources at f frf Action dot org that can
[18:16] Speaker 4: help you and assist you in being effective when it
[18:19] Speaker 4: comes to reaching out to your lawmakers.
[18:21] Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the school boards. There's a
[18:23] Speaker 1: concentrated effort to actually stack the school boards with Christian nationalists.
[18:29] Speaker 1: They are well funded organizations doing that. So becoming a
[18:33] Speaker 1: member of a school board, I mean that's fantastic. Mickey
[18:37] Speaker 1: Dolland's regional government Affairs manager for fr F and the
[18:41] Speaker 1: f FRF Action Fund f fr Faction dot Org. I'd
[18:49] Speaker 1: say you're doing the Lord's work. But I don't think
[18:52] Speaker 1: that's how I want to phrase that, Mickey. But it's
[18:54] Speaker 1: been a joy to speak to you and I appreciate
[18:56] Speaker 1: you being out there fighting the good fight.
[18:57] Speaker 3: Man, you too, Seth. Thank you.
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