# Wrapped in the Flag: The Perversion of Patriotism in MAGA America

An episode of [TheThinkingAtheist](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/412308695), 28 Oct 2025, 45 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/mgln.ai/e/711/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/68241417/podcast837_wrappedinflag.mp3

These days, the American flag just "hits different." At the recent California Freethought Day in Sacramento, Seth Andrews spoke about how the stars and stripes have been weaponized against free citizens. SPEECH VIDEO Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/thethinkingatheist--3270347/support.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
[0:09] Speaker 1: an idea.
[0:10] Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through the.
[0:13] Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I
[0:19] Speaker 1: tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.
[0:22] Speaker 2: I put my hand on a book and made a.
[0:24] Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.
[0:29] Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.
[0:32] Speaker 2: Truth Fusian wisdom will come to you that way.
[0:35] Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
[0:43] Speaker 1: Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
[0:56] Speaker 2: When I retire a speech from the road and I
[1:00] Speaker 2: post it to YouTube, it sounds kind of pretentious, doesn't it,
[1:02] Speaker 2: Like when I retire a presentation from my touring museum.
[1:08] Speaker 2: But whenever I'm done doing it on the road, I
[1:10] Speaker 2: like to put it out on YouTube, and then I
[1:12] Speaker 2: get to release the audio of it on the podcast.
[1:15] Speaker 2: And the beauty of this audio format is that we
[1:17] Speaker 2: get to elaborate a little bit more. The presentation itself
[1:20] Speaker 2: runs about a half hour, and I think it's I
[1:24] Speaker 2: don't know, I just feel like maybe you can relate
[1:27] Speaker 2: to the fact that the American flag feels poisonous. I know,
[1:34] Speaker 2: I'm already being called a terrorist. I'm already an insurgent,
[1:39] Speaker 2: a dissident, a traitor to my nation. I'm already being
[1:43] Speaker 2: called that by an entire demographic in this country. And
[1:47] Speaker 2: all they would have to hear is for me to say,
[1:49] Speaker 2: you know, the flag just ain't doing it for me anymore,
[1:53] Speaker 2: and it kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
[1:56] Speaker 2: That's all they would have to hear. They'd probably come
[1:58] Speaker 2: after me with zip ties I go to throw me
[2:00] Speaker 2: in a van. But I wanted to explore that in
[2:04] Speaker 2: the presentation, And since we have a little extra time,
[2:08] Speaker 2: I wanted to get into an article that I just read.
[2:10] Speaker 2: It released last year, but it was posted by doctor
[2:13] Speaker 2: Joshua Holzer. He is an associate professor of political science
[2:18] Speaker 2: at Westminster College. Did five years in the army, so
[2:23] Speaker 2: he has served his country and he has done a
[2:25] Speaker 2: lot of researching and writing about the culture. And he
[2:29] Speaker 2: had this article about the difference between nationalism and patriotism,
[2:34] Speaker 2: and I've gotten weary of both of those words. Patriotism
[2:39] Speaker 2: to me is just it's so cheap, like it's so
[2:43] Speaker 2: cheaply bought, at least on the surface when someone puts
[2:47] Speaker 2: an American flag pin on their lapel. Oh wow, great,
[2:51] Speaker 2: you love country? That and five bucks will get you
[2:54] Speaker 2: a cup of coffee at Starbucks, Right, I mean, that's
[2:56] Speaker 2: really what it's where you wear the Eagle T shirt,
[2:59] Speaker 2: you're flying the flag on your truck antenna. What have
[3:02] Speaker 2: you accomplished besides virtue signaling? And when I see those flags,
[3:07] Speaker 2: are you a patriot or are you a nationalist? Well
[3:11] Speaker 2: that was the point of the article, doctor Joshua Holzer
[3:14] Speaker 2: wrote July seventh, twenty twenty four. During his presidency, Donald
[3:18] Speaker 2: Trump said we are putting America first. We are taking
[3:22] Speaker 2: care of ourselves for a change, and then declared I'm
[3:26] Speaker 2: a nationalist. In another speech, he stated that under his watch,
[3:31] Speaker 2: the US had embraced the doctrine of patriotism. Trump is
[3:36] Speaker 2: now running for president again, and of course this was
[3:39] Speaker 2: pre election. When he announced his candidacy, he stated that
[3:43] Speaker 2: he needs every patriot on board because this is not
[3:47] Speaker 2: just a campaign, this is a quest to save our country.
[3:51] Speaker 2: One week later, he dined in Mara a Lago with
[3:54] Speaker 2: Nick Fuentes, a self described nationalist who's been banned from Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube,
[4:01] Speaker 2: and other platforms. For using racist and anti Semitic language. Afterward,
[4:06] Speaker 2: Trump confirmed that meeting but did not denounce Fuentes, despite
[4:11] Speaker 2: calls for him to do so. The words nationalism and
[4:15] Speaker 2: patriotism are sometimes used as synonyms, such as when Trump
[4:19] Speaker 2: and his supporters describe his America First agenda, but many
[4:23] Speaker 2: political scientists, including me, don't typically see those two terms
[4:28] Speaker 2: as equivalent or even compatible. There is a difference, and
[4:32] Speaker 2: it's important not just to scholars, but to regular citizens
[4:37] Speaker 2: as well. And he posted this image from a nineteen
[4:40] Speaker 2: fifty Superman comic. He is surrounded by people and it
[4:45] Speaker 2: says this, and remember, boys and girls, your school, like
[4:48] Speaker 2: our country, is made up of Americans of many different races, religions,
[4:53] Speaker 2: and national origins. So if you hear anybody talk against
[4:57] Speaker 2: a schoolmate or anyone else because of his religion, race,
[5:00] Speaker 2: or national origin, don't wait. Tell him that kind of
[5:04] Speaker 2: talk is an American. Help keep your school all American.
[5:10] Speaker 2: And again, that was a Superman comic that came out
[5:12] Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty, Superman The Ultimate Immigrant. Right back to
[5:17] Speaker 2: the article to understand what nationalism is, it's useful to
[5:21] Speaker 2: understand what a nation is and isn't. A nation is
[5:25] Speaker 2: a group of people who share a history, culture, language, religion,
[5:29] Speaker 2: or some combination thereof. A country, which is sometimes called
[5:34] Speaker 2: a state in political science terminology, is an area of
[5:38] Speaker 2: land that has its own government. A nation state is
[5:42] Speaker 2: a homogeneous political entity mostly comprising a single nation. Nation
[5:48] Speaker 2: states are rare because nearly every country is home to
[5:52] Speaker 2: more than one national group. One example of a nation
[5:55] Speaker 2: state would be North Korea, where almost all residents are Koreans.
[6:01] Speaker 2: The United States is neither a nation nor a nation state. Rather,
[6:07] Speaker 2: it is a country of many different groups of people
[6:10] Speaker 2: who have a variety of shared histories, cultures, languages, and religions.
[6:15] Speaker 2: Some of these groups are formally recognized by the federal government,
[6:19] Speaker 2: such as the Navajo Nation and the Cherokee Nation. Similarly,
[6:24] Speaker 2: in Canada, the French speaking quebe Qua are recognized. I
[6:28] Speaker 2: Hope I said that right as being a distinct nation
[6:32] Speaker 2: within a United Canada, nationalism is per one Dictionary definition,
[6:38] Speaker 2: loyalty and devotion to a nation. It is a person
[6:41] Speaker 2: strong affinity for those who share the same history, culture, language,
[6:45] Speaker 2: or religion. Scholars understand nationalism as exclusive, boosting one identity
[6:52] Speaker 2: group over and at times in direct opposition to others.
[6:57] Speaker 2: The Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, ten of whom were
[7:00] Speaker 2: convicted of seditious conspiracy for their role in the January
[7:05] Speaker 2: sixth attack on the US Capitol, are both examples of
[7:08] Speaker 2: white nationalist groups which believe that immigrants and people of
[7:12] Speaker 2: color are a threat to their ideals of civilization. Trump
[7:18] Speaker 2: has described the events that took place on January sixth,
[7:21] Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, as having occurred peacefully and patriotically. He
[7:27] Speaker 2: has described those who have been imprisoned as great patriots
[7:31] Speaker 2: and has said that he would pardon a large portion
[7:34] Speaker 2: of them if elected in twenty twenty four. And holy shit,
[7:38] Speaker 2: didn't that turn out to be true. There are many
[7:41] Speaker 2: other nationalisms beyond white nationalism. The Nation of Islam, for instance,
[7:46] Speaker 2: is an example of a black nationalist group. The Anti
[7:50] Speaker 2: Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center of both
[7:54] Speaker 2: characterized it as a black supremacist hate group for its
[7:58] Speaker 2: anti white predjunct is and FYI to be clear, and
[8:02] Speaker 2: this is me talking. He's talking about the group the
[8:04] Speaker 2: Nation of Islam, not Islamic nations in general. Okay. Doctor
[8:10] Speaker 2: Holzer says, in addition to white and black racial nationalisms,
[8:15] Speaker 2: there are also ethnic and linguistic nationalisms, which typically seek
[8:19] Speaker 2: greater autonomy for and the eventual independence of certain national groups.
[8:26] Speaker 2: Examples include the Block Quebecqua, the Scottish National Party and
[8:31] Speaker 2: Oh my God played seemaru Oh I'm going to get
[8:35] Speaker 2: crucified for that. The Party of Wales, which are nationalist
[8:39] Speaker 2: political parties that respectively advocate for the quebquah of Quebec.
[8:44] Speaker 2: Have I even saying quebec quah correctly, the Scots of
[8:48] Speaker 2: Scotland and the Welsh of Wales. I totally butchered that paragraph.
[8:51] Speaker 2: But I'm just a man and I need your patients.
[8:56] Speaker 2: In contrast to nationalism's loyalty for or devotion to one's nation,
[9:01] Speaker 2: patriotism is per the same dictionary love for or devotion
[9:06] Speaker 2: to one's country. It comes from the word patriot, which
[9:10] Speaker 2: itself can be traced back to the Greek word patrios,
[9:14] Speaker 2: which means of one's father. In other words, patriotism has
[9:19] Speaker 2: historically meant a love for and devotion to one's fatherland
[9:24] Speaker 2: or country of origin. Patriotism encompasses devotion to the country
[9:29] Speaker 2: as a whole, including all the people who live within it.
[9:33] Speaker 2: Nationalism refers to devotion to only one group of people
[9:37] Speaker 2: over all others. An example of patriotism would be Martin
[9:42] Speaker 2: Luther King Junior's I Have a Dream speech, in which
[9:45] Speaker 2: he recites the first verse of the patriotic song America,
[9:50] Speaker 2: My Country, TI is of the In his Letter from
[9:53] Speaker 2: Birmingham Jail, King describes the nationalist groups as being quote
[9:58] Speaker 2: made up of people who have larfed lost faith in America.
[10:02] Speaker 2: George Orwell, the author of Animal Farm in nineteen eighty four,
[10:05] Speaker 2: describes patriotism as devotion to a particular place and a
[10:10] Speaker 2: particular way of life. He contrasted that with nationalism, which
[10:15] Speaker 2: he describes as the habit of identifying oneself with a
[10:19] Speaker 2: single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil,
[10:23] Speaker 2: and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests.
[10:30] Speaker 2: Adolf Hitler's rise in Germany was accompanied by perverting patriotism
[10:34] Speaker 2: and embracing nationalism. According to Charles de Gaull, who led
[10:39] Speaker 2: Free France against Nazi Germany during World War II and
[10:42] Speaker 2: later became President of France, patriotism is when love of
[10:46] Speaker 2: your own people comes first. Nationalism when hate for people
[10:51] Speaker 2: other than your own comes first. The tragedy of the
[10:54] Speaker 2: Holocaust was rooted in the nationalistic belief that certain groups
[10:58] Speaker 2: of people were inferior. While Hitler is a particularly extreme example.
[11:03] Speaker 2: In my own research as a human rights scholar, I
[11:06] Speaker 2: found that even in contemporary times, countries with nationalist leaders
[11:11] Speaker 2: are more likely to have bad human rights records. After
[11:15] Speaker 2: World War II, President Harry Truman signed the Marshall Plan,
[11:19] Speaker 2: which would provide post war aid to Europe. The intent
[11:23] Speaker 2: of the program was to help European countries break away
[11:27] Speaker 2: from the self defeating actions of narrow nationalism. For Truman,
[11:31] Speaker 2: putting America first did not mean exiting the global stage
[11:35] Speaker 2: and sowing division at home with nationalist actions and rhetoric. Rather,
[11:40] Speaker 2: he viewed the quote principal concern of the people of
[11:44] Speaker 2: the United States to be the creation of conditions of
[11:47] Speaker 2: enduring peace throughout the world. For him, patriotically putting the
[11:53] Speaker 2: interest of his country first meant fighting against nationalism. This
[11:58] Speaker 2: view is in line with that a friend President Emmanuel Macron,
[12:01] Speaker 2: who has stated that patriotism is the exact opposite of nationalism. Nationalism,
[12:08] Speaker 2: he says, is a betrayal of patriotism. Anyway. That's the
[12:12] Speaker 2: article which brings the question where do you fall? Do
[12:17] Speaker 2: you find yourself, loving your country. I referenced the No
[12:21] Speaker 2: Kings protest, which hadn't yet happened. In my speech. I
[12:24] Speaker 2: was talking about how we went out and we were
[12:26] Speaker 2: protesting because we love our country. I sometimes liken it too.
[12:31] Speaker 2: If you have a loved one in your life, a child,
[12:34] Speaker 2: a spouse, a brother, sister, neighbors, somebody you know, somebody
[12:37] Speaker 2: you care about, and they've gone off the rails. They're
[12:41] Speaker 2: acting in anti social ways, destructive ways, whether it's self
[12:45] Speaker 2: destructive or they're hurting other people, and you stand up
[12:48] Speaker 2: and you condemn that, and there are consequences, but you
[12:52] Speaker 2: don't stop loving that person. Usually your desire is to
[12:57] Speaker 2: see that person recover, reset, heal themselves, and then have
[13:01] Speaker 2: restoration to help heal those that they have harmed. You
[13:05] Speaker 2: want to see a happy ending to the story. You
[13:08] Speaker 2: care because you care about that person. And that's how
[13:12] Speaker 2: I frame the United States when I say love of country.
[13:15] Speaker 2: But I sure have gone far beyond the whole handover heart,
[13:19] Speaker 2: misty eyed America, the beautiful bullshit that was drilled into
[13:23] Speaker 2: my brain for decades of my life. Anyway, I'm going
[13:29] Speaker 2: to play for you the presentation and then tell me
[13:33] Speaker 2: what you think in the comments section. Before I do that,
[13:38] Speaker 2: let me take a real short break and I'll be
[13:40] Speaker 2: right back. This is the audio of a speech that
[13:48] Speaker 2: I gave on the twelfth of October in Sacramento on
[13:52] Speaker 2: the California State Capitol Steps or California Free Thought Day.
[13:57] Speaker 2: The video is linked in the description box. Do you
[14:00] Speaker 2: want to watch it with the slides? The speech itself
[14:02] Speaker 2: is titled Wrapped in the Flag the Perversion of Patriotism
[14:07] Speaker 2: in Maga America. You know, I want to take a
[14:16] Speaker 2: journey if we can, and this will occasionally, I think,
[14:19] Speaker 2: drop into some dark places. But I have a better destination.
[14:24] Speaker 2: So just bear with me. I know that at an
[14:27] Speaker 2: event like this in this culture, we hear a lot
[14:30] Speaker 2: of hey, Christian nationalism is dangerous and things kind of suck,
[14:35] Speaker 2: and so you know, I come on the heels of
[14:37] Speaker 2: a lot of that. But I've been thinking about a
[14:42] Speaker 2: statement that Christopher Hitchins once made. He said, how dismal
[14:47] Speaker 2: it is to see present day Americans yearning for the
[14:51] Speaker 2: very Orthodoxy that their country was founded to escape. Hashtag
[14:57] Speaker 2: irony run orthodox right belief accepted creeds, a movement that
[15:04] Speaker 2: claims glory and condemns heresy, and I have been thinking
[15:09] Speaker 2: about the symbols and rituals that orthodoxies have long used.
[15:15] Speaker 2: Now I'm going to ask a rhetorical question, but I
[15:18] Speaker 2: have a feeling that many of you have been thinking
[15:20] Speaker 2: and feeling what I have been thinking and feeling. I
[15:23] Speaker 2: went to a basketball game with Dad in nineteen ninety.
[15:26] Speaker 2: This was right after the Gulf War to liberate Kuwait
[15:30] Speaker 2: had started, and so Americans at that time were really
[15:35] Speaker 2: throwing the word freedom around. Freedom, Freedom, Free America. We're
[15:41] Speaker 2: going to free Kuwait. Let freedom ring, and the stars
[15:45] Speaker 2: and stripes were waving, and there was all kinds of
[15:48] Speaker 2: America talk about how we were going to liberate the world.
[15:53] Speaker 2: So before the game started, it was time for the
[15:55] Speaker 2: presentation of the flag and the pledge of allegiance and
[15:59] Speaker 2: the singing of the national anthem and all that right.
[16:02] Speaker 2: And I will never forget the zeal that I heard
[16:04] Speaker 2: and the passion coming out of that packed stadium right
[16:08] Speaker 2: hand over heart. We filled that place with our voices,
[16:12] Speaker 2: and the rockets, red glare, the bombs bursting in air
[16:17] Speaker 2: gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
[16:21] Speaker 2: And for a kid like me, somebody who was raised
[16:24] Speaker 2: on God bless the USA. You know, it was kind
[16:29] Speaker 2: of a religious experience. I was baptized in feeling and conviction,
[16:36] Speaker 2: and all the necessary ingredients were there in that moment. Right,
[16:42] Speaker 2: we had an Oklahoma crowd, We had the anthem, the reverence,
[16:45] Speaker 2: the God speak, the national pride, the liberation mission, and
[16:50] Speaker 2: punctuating everything, where the stars and stripes the big flag
[16:54] Speaker 2: that was hanging down from the ceiling of the auditorium. Now,
[16:57] Speaker 2: I was a young man. I did not really under
[17:00] Speaker 2: stand the politics of the Middle East. I mean I
[17:03] Speaker 2: understood invasion, I understood oppression. I get the basics. And
[17:09] Speaker 2: I did and still do, see so many good people
[17:11] Speaker 2: who were kicked in the teeth by dictators and oppressors
[17:16] Speaker 2: and invaders and kings and want to be kings, to
[17:20] Speaker 2: be free. I mean, that's a worthy ideal, I think,
[17:22] Speaker 2: for ourselves and for all of us. But what has changed,
[17:27] Speaker 2: and this is what I'm wondering if you're feeling what
[17:30] Speaker 2: has changed is the emotional kick. I get the feeling
[17:34] Speaker 2: that hits me whenever I see the American flag today
[17:38] Speaker 2: as opposed to say, twenty years ago, it just hits different.
[17:45] Speaker 2: I used to see a flag that waved on somebody's
[17:48] Speaker 2: front porch, or I'm driving down the highway and it's
[17:52] Speaker 2: flying on a highway fence or something. I see the
[17:55] Speaker 2: stars and stripes on somebody's car truck, and I would say,
[17:59] Speaker 2: oh yeah, huh. They loved their country. And yet we
[18:05] Speaker 2: have seen the same symbol co opted by some of
[18:08] Speaker 2: the worst people in the country right doing the worst stuff.
[18:15] Speaker 2: In February of twenty twenty, Donald Trump, he was taken
[18:19] Speaker 2: the stage at the Conservative Political Action Committee events Seapack,
[18:25] Speaker 2: and he went over and he hugged and kissed the flag.
[18:28] Speaker 2: You guys have seen the photo. The Seapack crowd went crazy.
[18:34] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, love of country, literal love of country. In
[18:39] Speaker 2: the footage January sixth, the Capitol rioters paytriots quote unquote
[18:45] Speaker 2: patriots carried the flag as they smashed in Pete. Hegsett
[18:51] Speaker 2: Defense secretary just gave that big, bombastic speech in front
[18:55] Speaker 2: of all the admirals and generals. Did you see his
[18:57] Speaker 2: backdrop right out of the old Georgey sk movie Patent
[19:01] Speaker 2: the American flag behind him. I mean that's theater. It
[19:04] Speaker 2: was messaging how many white supremacist groups lead with the
[19:10] Speaker 2: American flag. And so when I see that emblem. I
[19:14] Speaker 2: see the car flag, I see it flying on a
[19:17] Speaker 2: pole in somebody's yard. Whatever I will admit, I am guilty.
[19:21] Speaker 2: I will start assuming stuff about the person flying the flag.
[19:26] Speaker 2: Am I the only one who's going through this right
[19:31] Speaker 2: or wrong? My brain starts ticking boxes. Right wing, white
[19:36] Speaker 2: skin fox news er, probably pro ar fifteen, probably evolution denier, Okay,
[19:46] Speaker 2: election denier, COVID denier, LGBT rights denier, climate change denier,
[19:53] Speaker 2: and very possibly, for whatever reason, somebody who has decided
[19:57] Speaker 2: that American needs somebody as president and who can simply
[20:01] Speaker 2: smash everything down, this perverted system that has been taken
[20:05] Speaker 2: over by the woke, lived, demonic whoever we're supposed to be,
[20:09] Speaker 2: and a new nation that resembles the old nation can
[20:14] Speaker 2: be rebuilt in the image of our founding fathers. We
[20:17] Speaker 2: will be great again, a Christian nation. The Bible and
[20:20] Speaker 2: prayer in school ten Commandments, plaques in our public institutions,
[20:24] Speaker 2: presidential prayers to the Christian God. And it's all happening
[20:28] Speaker 2: under that big waving flag that's supposed to represent all
[20:32] Speaker 2: of us. When I was a goden country Christian, I
[20:34] Speaker 2: used to gravitate to this stuff, and there were things
[20:38] Speaker 2: that I really felt were sacred. I mean, I've used
[20:41] Speaker 2: the word and the flag was sacred to me. I
[20:46] Speaker 2: might I wouldn't have fallen for Trump, I know that
[20:49] Speaker 2: much when I was a believer, but I might have
[20:52] Speaker 2: leaned into the whole. Anybody burning the flag should go
[20:58] Speaker 2: to jail. Thing I might have gone. They're be panalized
[21:01] Speaker 2: in some way because the flag is secret. You're an American.
[21:04] Speaker 2: That's the American flag. And since that time, I've come
[21:09] Speaker 2: to challenge a lot of that stuff. A lot of
[21:12] Speaker 2: the objects and ideas that were called sacred, they were
[21:15] Speaker 2: called off limits. You can't touch them, can't do anything
[21:18] Speaker 2: with them. Right they are over here. You shall not pass.
[21:24] Speaker 2: Don't doubt or desecrated. Don't doubt or desecrate the Bible.
[21:27] Speaker 2: It's sacred. Don't protest your country, especially in public. That's sacred.
[21:33] Speaker 2: Don't offend the flag. It's not just the standard for America.
[21:36] Speaker 2: In some ways, it is America. Love it or leave it.
[21:39] Speaker 2: You guys have all heard that one, love it or
[21:41] Speaker 2: leave it. But the flag hits different. I don't see
[21:49] Speaker 2: the stars and the stripes, you know, the stripes representing
[21:52] Speaker 2: the thirteen original colonies, and the stars representing the states
[21:56] Speaker 2: of the Union. I see something that's been turned into
[21:59] Speaker 2: a how many kings and tyrants have wrapped themselves in
[22:05] Speaker 2: those types of symbols, the sacred symbols, the colors of
[22:09] Speaker 2: the Kingdom. North Carolina Army veteran Jan Carey served in
[22:14] Speaker 2: Iraq and Afghanistan. He recently in La Fayette Park set
[22:19] Speaker 2: fire to the American flag because he believes, as a veteran,
[22:25] Speaker 2: if you're not free to burn the flag, you're not free.
[22:31] Speaker 2: And I think I agree criticize the Act. You can
[22:37] Speaker 2: hate the Act, protest the Act, but a truly free
[22:40] Speaker 2: country doesn't jail people because they burn a piece of fabric,
[22:45] Speaker 2: no matter what the pattern is. That's the stuff of
[22:48] Speaker 2: North Korea, Afghanistan, Russia. Today's American message seems to be
[22:53] Speaker 2: you're free if it's okay with me. Elementary school and
[22:59] Speaker 2: I went to a Christian right So every day we
[23:01] Speaker 2: had a ritual and we pledged our allegiance to three
[23:05] Speaker 2: sacred things. Right, we had the flag, the flag of
[23:07] Speaker 2: the United States of America, to the Republic, for which
[23:10] Speaker 2: it stands, One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and
[23:14] Speaker 2: justice for all. Now, I was a kid hed. You
[23:17] Speaker 2: taken me in fourth grade and said, hey, can you
[23:19] Speaker 2: define for me what an allegiance is? I had no
[23:24] Speaker 2: idea what you're talking about, right, I pledge allegiance to
[23:27] Speaker 2: the flag. I didn't know what it meant. What's a republic?
[23:33] Speaker 2: No idea. I'm in fourth grade. I don't know what
[23:35] Speaker 2: a republic is. But I just pledged allegiance to it
[23:38] Speaker 2: because that's the right thing to do. You know, where
[23:40] Speaker 2: in the Constitution is God mentioned? I have no idea. Did.
[23:46] Speaker 2: I haven't read the Constitution. Where are the founding fathers
[23:49] Speaker 2: all Christians? Ah? Huh, yes, of course they were right.
[23:54] Speaker 2: How did I know that? Well, a Christian parent, Guardian,
[23:58] Speaker 2: pastor teacher, somebody told me. So. There is also the
[24:04] Speaker 2: irony in this one little fact that is often unknown
[24:08] Speaker 2: by God and country pledge and flag zealots. Beyond the
[24:11] Speaker 2: fact that the Pledge of Allegiance was not written to
[24:14] Speaker 2: be a national oath. It started actually to be printed
[24:17] Speaker 2: in a youth magazine. Its author, Francis Bellamy, was a socialist. Oh,
[24:24] Speaker 2: the irony is awesome. Francis Bellamy, he was a Christian socialist.
[24:30] Speaker 2: He believed in Jesus, but he thought Jesus would be
[24:33] Speaker 2: offended by class systems. You want a capitalist, he was
[24:37] Speaker 2: a socialist. Right, broadcast that little detail on Newsmax and
[24:41] Speaker 2: see how it goes over tomorrow. Right. If I had
[24:44] Speaker 2: told myself that I would start to question this ritual,
[24:49] Speaker 2: this wrote national Allegiance oath, I would have called you
[24:53] Speaker 2: crazy many years ago. Not pledging my allegiance would be disloyal.
[24:57] Speaker 2: It would be insulting to every veteran who fought and
[25:00] Speaker 2: died for my freedom. It might even be traitorous. But
[25:06] Speaker 2: the pledge, like the flag, seems to have become a weapon.
[25:12] Speaker 2: Americans are taking the pledge a lot like Catholics take
[25:16] Speaker 2: the sacraments. Have you noticed it's sacred? It requires participation
[25:23] Speaker 2: if you are going to be a true patriot. Back
[25:25] Speaker 2: when Pete Hegseth was a Fox News host, he did
[25:30] Speaker 2: this segment back in twenty eighteen where he staged a
[25:32] Speaker 2: bunch of school children in front of their desks, right
[25:36] Speaker 2: hands over their hearts, left hands holding a tiny American flag,
[25:42] Speaker 2: and he had them all recite the Pledge of Allegiance,
[25:46] Speaker 2: and then Hegseth tweeted that parents and teachers should quote
[25:50] Speaker 2: demand patriotism in our classrooms. Ah, nothing says personal freedoms
[25:58] Speaker 2: like forced loyal and anybody who freely opts out, how
[26:03] Speaker 2: are they treated in this country? Colin Kaepernick, NFL quarterback,
[26:08] Speaker 2: of course, is probably the most famous example twenty sixteen.
[26:11] Speaker 2: Right he took the knee to protest systemic racism in
[26:14] Speaker 2: this country. How is he treated? He became judas. Three
[26:21] Speaker 2: years after that, Michigan Grand Valley State University, a student
[26:25] Speaker 2: group it was meeting once a week, decided to remove
[26:29] Speaker 2: the pledge from their meeting. They're not going to start
[26:31] Speaker 2: the meeting with the pledge. They thought, well, we don't
[26:33] Speaker 2: want to other anybody, and we don't really need it.
[26:36] Speaker 2: You know, there are plenty of pledges out there. So
[26:38] Speaker 2: they removed the pledge from the meeting, and what happened.
[26:43] Speaker 2: They got roasted in the media, received so much pressure.
[26:46] Speaker 2: They immediately put it back in and said, whoops, sorry
[26:49] Speaker 2: about that. That same year, twenty nineteen, there was a
[26:53] Speaker 2: first year student at Manchester High School in Akron, Ohio.
[26:56] Speaker 2: She was banished to the principal's office for not recis
[27:00] Speaker 2: the Pledge of Allegiance and the principle of Manhattan Beach,
[27:04] Speaker 2: California's Mira Costa High School actually patrolled the hallways of
[27:09] Speaker 2: his school, looking in the windows, opening doors to make
[27:12] Speaker 2: sure no one opted out of the pledge. It was mandated,
[27:16] Speaker 2: it was required, it was sacred. Eleven years ago, the
[27:19] Speaker 2: American Humanist Association launched this controversial campaign. It was called
[27:24] Speaker 2: Boycott the Pledge, and the tagline was sit for the Pledge,
[27:28] Speaker 2: stand for the Constitution, and the AHA quoted United States
[27:34] Speaker 2: Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, and he famously said these words.
[27:38] Speaker 2: He said, quote, if there is any fixed star in
[27:41] Speaker 2: our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or
[27:46] Speaker 2: petty can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion,
[27:53] Speaker 2: or other matters of opinion, or forced citizens to confess
[27:58] Speaker 2: by word or act their faith. Therein. That quote was
[28:03] Speaker 2: part of a famous nineteen forty four Supreme Court ruling
[28:06] Speaker 2: on a required flag salute in our public schools in
[28:10] Speaker 2: this country. And yet, in our free country, let's say
[28:13] Speaker 2: we want to recite the pledge, but leave out under God,
[28:18] Speaker 2: because the original language from Francis Bellamy did not have
[28:22] Speaker 2: under God. Uh. Oh. If you skip over that part,
[28:26] Speaker 2: you are anti Christian. If you are anti Christian, you
[28:29] Speaker 2: are anti American Omitting God from the pledge is almost
[28:33] Speaker 2: worse than just staying seated outright. Now. I'm not telling
[28:36] Speaker 2: you anything new. When I explained that in God we
[28:40] Speaker 2: Trust did not get printed on the coins in this
[28:43] Speaker 2: country until around the time of the Civil War. It
[28:46] Speaker 2: didn't appear on our paper money until the nineteen fifties.
[28:50] Speaker 2: Eisenhower added under God to the pledge in nineteen fifty four.
[28:54] Speaker 2: The original motto for this country was not in God
[28:57] Speaker 2: we Trust. It was as unum out of many one.
[29:04] Speaker 2: The Declaration of Independence refers to a creator, but the
[29:08] Speaker 2: word God appears nowhere in our Constitution, the governing document
[29:12] Speaker 2: of the United States, and the only reference to religion
[29:16] Speaker 2: is the Establishment Clause separating religion and government. Many of
[29:20] Speaker 2: the founding fathers did believe in God, many followed the
[29:24] Speaker 2: teachings of Jesus, but they did not ever intend a
[29:28] Speaker 2: Christian nation. And I have receipts to back up this claim. Now,
[29:34] Speaker 2: the founders are often called sacred. Have you noticed the
[29:39] Speaker 2: way God and country patriotism approaches our founders. It's like
[29:43] Speaker 2: they've been sainted. Yeah. They dumped the tea, and they
[29:47] Speaker 2: rebelled against the king, and they engineered the revolution with
[29:50] Speaker 2: a nobility and a wisdom that did become the stuff
[29:54] Speaker 2: of history in many ways. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams,
[29:59] Speaker 2: Tom Pain, Benjamin Franklin. They were remarkable people, and the
[30:05] Speaker 2: American experiment remains, in concept any way, a remarkable idea.
[30:11] Speaker 2: But there weren't saints. Yeah, they began a nation for
[30:16] Speaker 2: we the people, and became these sort of pristine oil
[30:22] Speaker 2: paintings in our minds as well as in our government halls.
[30:25] Speaker 2: But they were also problematic people. I mean, how many
[30:28] Speaker 2: of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were slave owners,
[30:34] Speaker 2: They banned women from leadership. They were not, as we say,
[30:38] Speaker 2: part of the knowledge economy. The Second Amendment was brought
[30:43] Speaker 2: into our laws around the time when a well regulated
[30:47] Speaker 2: militia made sense in a new nation, and the primitive
[30:50] Speaker 2: weapons fired maybe two or three manually loaded shots a
[30:54] Speaker 2: minute with an effective range of maybe three hundred yards.
[30:58] Speaker 2: The idea of an abare fifteen firing sixty rounds a
[31:03] Speaker 2: minute at thirty two hundred feet a second would not
[31:05] Speaker 2: have even occurred to them when they wrote the Second Amendment.
[31:09] Speaker 2: And yet the Second Amendment is considered sacred and untouchable.
[31:13] Speaker 2: You can't modify it, you can't do anything with it.
[31:15] Speaker 2: That's what the founders intended. In the late eighteenth century
[31:19] Speaker 2: state of Connecticut, the Danbury Baptist Association was not happy.
[31:27] Speaker 2: Connecticut was different than a lot of other states at
[31:29] Speaker 2: that time because they actually kind of had a state
[31:31] Speaker 2: church and it was controlled by the Congregationalists, and the
[31:35] Speaker 2: Congregationalists were supported in some ways by taxpayer money. Right,
[31:39] Speaker 2: So those who were not Congregationalists in Connecticut were worried
[31:44] Speaker 2: that they were going to start being treated like second
[31:45] Speaker 2: class citizens. Hey wait a minute, you got one religious
[31:49] Speaker 2: party in control. We're afraid that they're going to sit
[31:51] Speaker 2: at the head of the table and we're going to
[31:52] Speaker 2: get the scraps right. This bothers us. So in seventeen ninety,
[32:00] Speaker 2: to this looming shadow of a state theism favoring one faith,
[32:05] Speaker 2: the Congregationalists, the Danbury Baptist Association was formed, and they
[32:10] Speaker 2: organized to dissent and push back on majority rule, and
[32:14] Speaker 2: they wrote this official letter to Thomas Jefferson December of
[32:19] Speaker 2: eighteen oh one. That letter included these words, and I quote,
[32:23] Speaker 2: our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty,
[32:27] Speaker 2: that religion is, at all times and places a matter
[32:30] Speaker 2: between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer
[32:33] Speaker 2: in name, person or effects on account of his religious opinions,
[32:38] Speaker 2: and that the legitimate power of civil government extends no
[32:43] Speaker 2: further than to punish the man who works ill to
[32:46] Speaker 2: his neighbor. So the message that they had essentially was, Hey,
[32:49] Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson, congratulations on your election to the presidency. Religion
[32:54] Speaker 2: is a private thing, not a state thing. And we're
[32:56] Speaker 2: nervous that the Congregationalists are going to be running the
[32:59] Speaker 2: show and we're going to become second class citizens. We
[33:03] Speaker 2: know Connecticut is not supposed to be a church. That's
[33:05] Speaker 2: what they were saying in the letter. Right January first,
[33:09] Speaker 2: eighteen oh two, Thomas Jefferson wrote a reply, and he
[33:13] Speaker 2: said this quote, believing with you that religion is a
[33:18] Speaker 2: matter which lies solely between man and his God, that
[33:23] Speaker 2: he owes account to none other for his faith or
[33:26] Speaker 2: his worship, That the legitimate powers of government reach actions
[33:31] Speaker 2: only and not opinions. I contemplate with sovereign reverence that
[33:35] Speaker 2: act of the whole American people which declared that their
[33:39] Speaker 2: legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion
[33:45] Speaker 2: or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall
[33:50] Speaker 2: of separation between church and states. Liars pseudo historians like
[33:58] Speaker 2: David Barton say that Thomas Jefferson and the other founders
[34:02] Speaker 2: wanted a Christian nation. Those are the receipts and there
[34:07] Speaker 2: are many others. Did Thomas Jefferson adhere to some of
[34:10] Speaker 2: Jesus's philosophies? Yeah, sure looks like it. But the apologists
[34:15] Speaker 2: who say that he was a Bible literalist about Christian
[34:18] Speaker 2: have to explain why Thomas Jefferson took a knife and
[34:21] Speaker 2: he sliced out all the supernatural stuff that Jesus did
[34:25] Speaker 2: and the gospels. He cut out the miracles and left
[34:30] Speaker 2: just the philosophies. And that Jefferson Bible is currently on
[34:35] Speaker 2: display at the Smithsonian. Historians believe Thomas Jefferson was more
[34:42] Speaker 2: a deist not a theist. Back in seventeen seventy six,
[34:46] Speaker 2: this is just a few months after the writing of
[34:48] Speaker 2: the Declaration of Independence. Jefferson borrowed from the English philosopher
[34:53] Speaker 2: John Locke when he wrote in his notes these words quote,
[34:56] Speaker 2: neither Pagan, nor Muslim nor Jew ought to be excluded
[35:01] Speaker 2: from the civil rights of the Commonwealth because of his religion.
[35:06] Speaker 2: Some of Thomas Jefferson's contemporaries were scandalized because he owned
[35:12] Speaker 2: a Quran that sounds pretty inclusive, refreshingly American. In his
[35:22] Speaker 2: book The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine said he believed
[35:24] Speaker 2: in God, but quote, all national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian,
[35:31] Speaker 2: or Turkish, appear to me no other than human invention,
[35:35] Speaker 2: set up to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power
[35:40] Speaker 2: and profit. George Washington's personal religious beliefs continue to be debated,
[35:46] Speaker 2: but even in his speech to a Hebrew congregation, and
[35:50] Speaker 2: this was in August of seventeen ninety, he said this quote,
[35:53] Speaker 2: all possess a like liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship.
[36:02] Speaker 2: All not Christians. All. Benjamin Franklin was a Deist. How
[36:10] Speaker 2: do we know? He told us he was raised strict Calvinists.
[36:17] Speaker 2: He'd become skeptical of the church. He would invoke God
[36:20] Speaker 2: or a supreme being in his adult life in sometimes
[36:23] Speaker 2: confusing ways, but he saw ethical behavior beyond any single faith.
[36:28] Speaker 2: He once advised that people should do this and I
[36:31] Speaker 2: quote imitate Jesus and Socrates seventeen ninety six. The US
[36:38] Speaker 2: wanted to secure commercial shipping rights and protect our ships
[36:43] Speaker 2: in the Mediterranean Sea connected to Tripoli modern day Libya,
[36:48] Speaker 2: and those waters had been plagued for like three hundred
[36:51] Speaker 2: years by privateers and pirates who were operating out of
[36:54] Speaker 2: North Africa. We wanted, we needed guarantees of rights and
[36:59] Speaker 2: protections our ships on the seas, so as a guarantee
[37:04] Speaker 2: to Tripoli that we would not become Christian colonizers. If
[37:10] Speaker 2: you allow our ships protected access to those waters, we
[37:13] Speaker 2: promise we will not become Christian colonizers in your Muslim lands.
[37:19] Speaker 2: The famous Treaty of Tripoli was drawn up signed by
[37:22] Speaker 2: John Adams, and it includes these words, the government of
[37:27] Speaker 2: the United States of America is not in any sense
[37:31] Speaker 2: founded on the Christian religion. Could the man be any
[37:36] Speaker 2: more clear? John Adams was a Unitarian. He didn't believe
[37:41] Speaker 2: in the Trinity. How scandalous is that he liked a
[37:44] Speaker 2: lot about Christianity. But in a seventeen ninety nine letter
[37:48] Speaker 2: he wrote to his own wife, he said that his
[37:50] Speaker 2: belief quote excludes superstition. So how would the founders feel
[37:58] Speaker 2: if we teleport them right here, right now. What might
[38:03] Speaker 2: they say about the White House posting online portraits of
[38:09] Speaker 2: President Donald Trump wearing a crown like King George the Third.
[38:16] Speaker 2: Would they be proud to see the flag drag through
[38:19] Speaker 2: the tear gas and broken windows of our Capitol building?
[38:22] Speaker 2: Would they want citizens to be forced into little cookie
[38:25] Speaker 2: cutters that happen to be shaped like American flags, like
[38:28] Speaker 2: our borders? Would they, as immigrants, celebrate or grieve how
[38:35] Speaker 2: we treat immigrants today? Might they stand with us here
[38:40] Speaker 2: on the California State Capitol steps to lament the divided
[38:44] Speaker 2: states of America divided on almost everything, opinions, gender, religion, color, culture, philosophies, values, opinions,
[38:58] Speaker 2: and positions. This to getting somebody excluded, accused, deleted, arrested, threatened,
[39:05] Speaker 2: or worse. How might Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Pain, and Franklin
[39:12] Speaker 2: thought about a president who likes to waive a Bible
[39:15] Speaker 2: he does not read, grifting and abusing within a secular nation,
[39:19] Speaker 2: he does not represent, shoving Project twenty twenty five down
[39:24] Speaker 2: the throats of people who don't want it. And that's
[39:26] Speaker 2: the majority of people forcing allegiance, forcing allegiance to the
[39:31] Speaker 2: state instead of an allegiance to something that's much larger
[39:34] Speaker 2: and more important, a personal oath to protect democracy, equality, humanity.
[39:42] Speaker 2: You know what is right, you know what is wrong,
[39:46] Speaker 2: And when your own tribe, your own nation is engaged
[39:48] Speaker 2: and wrong, you know your patriotic duty, your true love
[39:53] Speaker 2: of country. True allegiance means resistance, protest, disc an argument
[40:01] Speaker 2: about uncomfortable subjects, when warranted, dissent, and pushback. You remember
[40:06] Speaker 2: the words of doctor Martin Luther King Junior from the
[40:09] Speaker 2: Civil Rights movement. He said, I criticize America because I
[40:14] Speaker 2: love her. I want her to stand as a moral
[40:17] Speaker 2: example to the world. Patriotism in this country has so
[40:22] Speaker 2: often required dissent and even discussed. Strong protest has so
[40:31] Speaker 2: often pushed us out of some very dark ideas and
[40:34] Speaker 2: bad places. Those opposing the slavery of the Antebellum South
[40:39] Speaker 2: were called un American. Women of the suffrage movement were
[40:43] Speaker 2: called un American. Thousands who marched from Selma to Montgomery
[40:48] Speaker 2: for Rachel equality were called un American. Veterans and others
[40:52] Speaker 2: who protested the Vietnam War were called un American. Yet
[40:56] Speaker 2: what could be more American than freely speaking of and
[41:00] Speaker 2: standing up for what's right there are thousands of protests
[41:04] Speaker 2: that are being organized for Saturday the eighteenth, a few
[41:07] Speaker 2: days away, the No King's protest. Right now, it looks
[41:11] Speaker 2: like there's around twenty five hundred separate protests, and that
[41:15] Speaker 2: number is growing. We're going to see millions of people
[41:18] Speaker 2: rising up all around this country and all around the world,
[41:21] Speaker 2: taking a stand as we're doing here today, because who
[41:24] Speaker 2: else is going to do it. We're the ones who must,
[41:29] Speaker 2: and for that we might be accused of betrayal. We're
[41:37] Speaker 2: not patriotic, We're bad Americans. We're on American even domestic terrorist.
[41:44] Speaker 2: You guys heard that term getting floated lately. Ah, we
[41:50] Speaker 2: are all Antifa today. Apparently. I told Nick on the
[41:55] Speaker 2: way up today, I said, I wish I'd had time
[41:58] Speaker 2: to go by and purchase a frog cost like the
[42:01] Speaker 2: ones they're wearing in Portland right now, because apparently that's
[42:04] Speaker 2: a symbol of the rebellion for what Why are you
[42:10] Speaker 2: and I domestic terrorists? Why are we seditious? Why is
[42:14] Speaker 2: this heresy? Why should we be kicked out? Love it
[42:18] Speaker 2: or leave it? Why? What's the scandalous position that we
[42:21] Speaker 2: are taking that the moment America becomes the Christian nation,
[42:26] Speaker 2: it will cease to be America. For demanding fair and
[42:31] Speaker 2: humane treatment for everybody, for wanting our courts to be
[42:36] Speaker 2: about law, not ideology. For daring to challenge the boy
[42:40] Speaker 2: king who has weaponized house, our house, the White House,
[42:45] Speaker 2: to enrich himself while dismantling American democracy and decency. Eleanor
[42:51] Speaker 2: Roosevelt famously said this. She said, true patriotism springs from
[42:56] Speaker 2: a belief in the dignity of the individual freedom, an
[43:00] Speaker 2: equality not only for Americans, but for all people on earth.
[43:05] Speaker 2: Henry David Thureau wrote once, disobedience is the true foundation
[43:11] Speaker 2: of liberty. The obedience must be slaves. One day, I
[43:18] Speaker 2: hope to not have that feeling in my gut when
[43:21] Speaker 2: I see somebody waving an American flag. I really do
[43:25] Speaker 2: desire it with all my heart to see the symbols
[43:28] Speaker 2: of our nation restored to their true integrity. I myself
[43:34] Speaker 2: am beyond taking national pledges. I'm not doing loyalty oaths
[43:38] Speaker 2: to anything other than the truth than goodness. But I
[43:42] Speaker 2: do wonder if the American flag might might survive today's
[43:47] Speaker 2: jingoism and truly freely one day fly again a national banner,
[43:55] Speaker 2: not a national blasphemy law huntry that isn't a cage
[44:02] Speaker 2: signifying borders that aren't dividers. It is a desire, it
[44:06] Speaker 2: is a dream, but until it is a true freedom,
[44:11] Speaker 2: we will sit when we are commanded to stand, will
[44:15] Speaker 2: be silent when we are told to talk, and we're
[44:17] Speaker 2: gonna speak out when told to shut up. We're going
[44:21] Speaker 2: to read and share band books. We're going to march
[44:25] Speaker 2: when they tell us to stay home. We're going to
[44:27] Speaker 2: resist when commanded to submit. We're going to love when
[44:30] Speaker 2: we're told to hate. We will be men and women
[44:33] Speaker 2: of open arms instead of closed fists, and we will
[44:37] Speaker 2: do what true patriots have done throughout human history. We
[44:42] Speaker 2: will speak and behave like those who are actually free.
[44:48] Speaker 2: And I thank you so much for having me up today.
[44:56] Speaker 1: Follow the Thinking Atheists on Facebook and Twitter for a
[45:00] Speaker 1: complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and
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[45:11] Speaker 1: and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.

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