# The Bible EXPLODED! (part two)

An episode of [TheThinkingAtheist](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/412308695), 30 Jan 2026, 1 h 00 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/mgln.ai/e/711/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/69601257/podcast856_biblestudyjustindz_pt2.mp3

Former pastor and exvangelical Justin DZ of "Deconstruction Zone" joins us in a Bible study that just might blow your mind. PART ONE of this podcast VIDEO of this conversation Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/thethinkingatheist--3270347/support.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
[0:09] Speaker 1: an idea.
[0:10] Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through.
[0:13] Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If
[0:18] Speaker 1: I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth,
[0:22] Speaker 1: not because.
[0:22] Speaker 3: I put my hand on a book and made a wish.
[0:25] Speaker 1: And working together for a more rational world.
[0:29] Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth,
[0:32] Speaker 2: Usian wisdom will come to you that way.
[0:35] Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
[0:43] Speaker 1: Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
[0:56] Speaker 2: This is part two of my conversation, a deep dive
[0:59] Speaker 2: by study with Justin de Z of Deconstruction Zone. Justin,
[1:04] Speaker 2: like me, was once a true blue Believer. He is
[1:08] Speaker 2: now a former Christian, but he was a pastor as
[1:12] Speaker 2: a Master's in Divinity and now spends a lot of
[1:15] Speaker 2: time talking about this stuff we're going to talk about today.
[1:19] Speaker 2: The Bible Part one is linked in the description box,
[1:22] Speaker 2: so is Justin's link tree, and a video of the
[1:26] Speaker 2: whole conversation. All of that is in the description box.
[1:30] Speaker 2: So here we go with Part two. Lots of talk
[1:37] Speaker 2: about other uncanonized books I'm thinking of the Book of Enoch.
[1:44] Speaker 2: I'm doing it off the top of the Gospel of Judas,
[1:46] Speaker 2: the Gospel of Thomas, etc. I guess the question is
[1:50] Speaker 2: who canonized the books. They're voted into approval of some kind.
[1:55] Speaker 2: How was that decision made and who made it. That's
[1:58] Speaker 2: a tough one. So the period of canonization is messy.
[2:04] Speaker 2: What I can tell you is that the Hebrew Bible
[2:07] Speaker 2: wasn't canonized until after Jesus's death and the formation of
[2:10] Speaker 2: the Early Christian Church. Some people point towards what they're
[2:15] Speaker 2: going to say is like a council of Jamnia. It's
[2:19] Speaker 2: not really a council.
[2:20] Speaker 3: There was a like a Hebrew school or Jewish school
[2:24] Speaker 3: at Jamnia, and most people believe that out of that
[2:27] Speaker 3: school they finally said, okay, we need to nail down
[2:32] Speaker 3: what is our canon. So, I mean, we don't have
[2:36] Speaker 3: a lot of documentation from it. We don't really know
[2:38] Speaker 3: about the whole process, who was involved, or how it
[2:41] Speaker 3: came about. We just know that that seems to be
[2:43] Speaker 3: where it happened and when it happened. Now, the early Christians,
[2:47] Speaker 3: interestingly enough, had a very different canon. In fact, if
[2:51] Speaker 3: you read through the early letters from the Church, Fathers
[2:55] Speaker 3: and read through the council notes from the Christians they
[2:59] Speaker 3: treated the Apa, and a lot of them also enoch
[3:02] Speaker 3: as though these are all scripture. I did a documentation
[3:06] Speaker 3: once of the first four hundred years of the Church.
[3:09] Speaker 3: Every single time somebody mentioned one of the Apocrypha, or
[3:13] Speaker 3: quoted from the Apocrypha, or it talked about the Apocrypha.
[3:18] Speaker 3: And what I found was every single one of them
[3:21] Speaker 3: up until the time of Jerome, believed that the Apocrypha
[3:24] Speaker 3: was scripture. They believed that it was given by God,
[3:26] Speaker 3: they believed that it was prophetic, and they believed that
[3:28] Speaker 3: it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. And even Justin
[3:30] Speaker 3: Martyr argued that the Jews took the Apocrypha out of
[3:35] Speaker 3: the canon because it spoke so clearly about Jesus. And
[3:39] Speaker 3: so the early Church had this canon up until Jerome,
[3:44] Speaker 3: where the Apocrypha was a core piece of it. It
[3:48] Speaker 3: wasn't until way way later that people were like, Hey,
[3:50] Speaker 3: maybe I don't know this apocrypha business. And one of
[3:53] Speaker 3: the reasons why that happened was Jerome was tasked to
[3:58] Speaker 3: organize the Old Life in manuscripts, so everyone knows joem
[4:02] Speaker 3: did the Latin Vulgate, but prior to the Vulgate, they
[4:05] Speaker 3: had Latin texts. They were a direct translation of the
[4:09] Speaker 3: Greek septuagen for the Old Testament, and they were a
[4:11] Speaker 3: translation of the Greek New Testament, but they were kind
[4:14] Speaker 3: of a mess. They needed someone to go in and
[4:18] Speaker 3: organize them and collate them and make it like an
[4:20] Speaker 3: official copy. And that's what Jerome did. But in doing so,
[4:23] Speaker 3: he already knew Greek. But he's like, listen, if I'm
[4:25] Speaker 3: going to do this, I really should go back to
[4:28] Speaker 3: the Hebrew manuscripts, not the Greek Old Testament. I should
[4:31] Speaker 3: see what's in the Hebrew. And so what he did
[4:34] Speaker 3: was he went down and learned Hebrew with the Jews
[4:38] Speaker 3: that were still alive that haven't been forcefully baptized yet.
[4:43] Speaker 3: And he was able to ascertain while he was down there,
[4:48] Speaker 3: not just the knowledge of the language, but also he's like, hey, listen,
[4:51] Speaker 3: there's this really weird thing. The Jews don't treat these
[4:54] Speaker 3: apocryphal books as being holy, like they don't include them.
[4:58] Speaker 3: So he was the first one that was like, hey, listen,
[5:00] Speaker 3: if these aren't sacred scriptures to the Jews, maybe they
[5:04] Speaker 3: shouldn't be sacred scripture to us. And that's where we
[5:07] Speaker 3: start to get a little bit of dialogue of like, hey,
[5:09] Speaker 3: are these really part of the Old Testament canon? And
[5:13] Speaker 3: then the early ecumenical councils had to deal with that.
[5:19] Speaker 2: I don't want to get too far into the weeds,
[5:21] Speaker 2: but I do want to address the Council of Nicia, right,
[5:23] Speaker 2: the nice and Creed. A lot of people say that
[5:25] Speaker 2: this was when many of the books of the Bible
[5:28] Speaker 2: were chosen. Correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand it,
[5:30] Speaker 2: it was actually more an argument about canonical law and
[5:34] Speaker 2: trying to determine other, I don't know, other important parts
[5:38] Speaker 2: of Christianity. But it wasn't the selection of the books
[5:41] Speaker 2: at Nicia. Do I have that right?
[5:43] Speaker 3: That seems to be the case. In fact, we've got
[5:46] Speaker 3: some councils that do deal with the with the selection
[5:52] Speaker 3: of the books. I'd have to get you a list
[5:56] Speaker 3: of the councils. The Council of Nicea was really more
[6:00] Speaker 3: about They talked about the nature of Jesus, divinity and
[6:03] Speaker 3: the Trinity and things like that. And while they certainly
[6:06] Speaker 3: did kind of talk about the canon, it wasn't it
[6:12] Speaker 3: wasn't made official. And in fact, if you give me
[6:14] Speaker 3: just a second, I'll pull up the councils that you want.
[6:17] Speaker 2: Well, while you're pulling that up, I mean we're talking
[6:19] Speaker 2: what third century, So this is after the Bible was
[6:26] Speaker 2: or at least some canons were selected. Like do we
[6:29] Speaker 2: know when the first incarnations of the books came together?
[6:33] Speaker 2: We don't have the original manuscripts, but some of the translations.
[6:36] Speaker 2: Do we know when somebody first said, okay, this is it?
[6:40] Speaker 3: So I think the earliest we could point to as
[6:44] Speaker 3: like something we would classify as like a unified text
[6:47] Speaker 3: are the early manuscripts like the Sinaticus Vaticanis. These are
[6:53] Speaker 3: like really early texts of the Old Testament and the
[6:56] Speaker 3: New Testament in Greek. And if we agree that the
[7:00] Speaker 3: books that were in those documents are officially part of
[7:05] Speaker 3: the Christian canon, but it would include quite a few
[7:08] Speaker 3: books that today we don't think should be in the canon. Now.
[7:12] Speaker 3: Some of the early councils that dealt with this was
[7:17] Speaker 3: the Council of Leadicia. They wanted to include baruk as canonized,
[7:22] Speaker 3: and also the Epistle of Jeremiah. And then we've got
[7:27] Speaker 3: a decree from Pope Damascus in three twenty eight that
[7:32] Speaker 3: likewise wanted to canonize the Book of Wisdom, the Book
[7:35] Speaker 3: of Sirac, the Book of Judas, the Book of Tobit,
[7:38] Speaker 3: and the Maccabees. And then there's the Council of Hippo
[7:42] Speaker 3: in three ninety three that wanted to canonize basically all
[7:47] Speaker 3: of the apocrypha, and then the Council of Carthage in
[7:53] Speaker 3: three ninety seven specifically because there was multiples, they also
[7:58] Speaker 3: wanted to canoni Maccabees and whatnot. So we have these
[8:03] Speaker 3: these early affirmations in the in a lot of the
[8:07] Speaker 3: ecamenical councils, like the the Third Council of Carthage in
[8:11] Speaker 3: four nineteen as well, they give an official list of
[8:16] Speaker 3: canonized books, like they said, okay, these are the official
[8:19] Speaker 3: canon and it includes Tobit, Judas, Ezra, the the additional
[8:26] Speaker 3: Ezra's as well, and also Maccabees and also some some
[8:32] Speaker 3: additional works of Solomon like Wisdom. So like we do
[8:36] Speaker 3: get early councils where they're like, hey, listen, these these
[8:40] Speaker 3: are these are official. But that didn't mean that dialogue
[8:44] Speaker 3: over what was official and did they debated it for
[8:49] Speaker 3: another one thousand years.
[8:51] Speaker 2: I would have read the Book of Wisdom just to
[8:53] Speaker 2: see what it said, like, let's turn to the Book
[8:56] Speaker 2: of Wisdom. It sounds you know, that's just me. I'm
[9:00] Speaker 2: speaking here with Justin Deezey of Deconstruction Zone Shameless Plug.
[9:06] Speaker 2: I narrated doctor Joshua Bowen's book Did the Old Testament
[9:10] Speaker 2: endorse slavery? I remember I was talking about this and
[9:13] Speaker 2: somebody's like, oh, yeah, well, what makes him think he
[9:16] Speaker 2: knows what he's talking about? And I'm like, oh, I mean,
[9:19] Speaker 2: he's an a seriologist who speaks and teaches Hebrew and
[9:24] Speaker 2: an Old Testament scholar, but beyond that, he's totally unqualified.
[9:28] Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about this argument by the
[9:30] Speaker 2: apologist that it wasn't slavery, it was merely indentured servitude.
[9:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is actually this is one of my
[9:38] Speaker 3: favorite topics. And we talked about this enough before I
[9:41] Speaker 3: dive into that. I would add one more note on
[9:45] Speaker 3: the canonization. Sure, I've forgot about it till just now.
[9:49] Speaker 3: We've got a direct quote in the Bible of the Apocrypha.
[9:53] Speaker 3: So the Book of Enoch is directly quoted in Jude
[9:57] Speaker 3: chapter one, verse fourteen. He quotes from First Enoch chapter
[10:01] Speaker 3: nine and calls them a prophet it says it was
[10:03] Speaker 3: about these that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying, see,
[10:09] Speaker 3: the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy
[10:11] Speaker 3: ones to execute judgment on all, to convict all the ungodly.
[10:15] Speaker 3: He's saying that this book of Enoch is prophetic from God,
[10:19] Speaker 3: which means if your New Testament says it, you should
[10:23] Speaker 3: believe what the New Testament says. Enoch needs to be
[10:26] Speaker 3: in your cannon. Sorry for the rabbit trail though.
[10:29] Speaker 2: No, not at all. I'm glad you went there, so
[10:31] Speaker 2: you know, I guess I can add to my slavery question.
[10:35] Speaker 2: Some people say indentured servitude. It was voluntary, they were
[10:38] Speaker 2: paying off debts, it was a work contract. And other
[10:40] Speaker 2: people say, well, God had to condescend to the societies
[10:45] Speaker 2: of the time which incorporated slavery. So you know, it's
[10:48] Speaker 2: either servitude or hey, they had slaves and God was
[10:52] Speaker 2: kind of working with the system that they had. How
[10:54] Speaker 2: would you address either of those?
[10:57] Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of a trick of which past passages
[11:00] Speaker 3: you want to read. If you ignore a bunch of
[11:03] Speaker 3: passages and only read certain passages, you can get to
[11:06] Speaker 3: this idea that they were just in tcherturbance. It certainly
[11:09] Speaker 3: isn't the case. Though.
[11:10] Speaker 2: Well, if I may, let's start over at Exodus twenty one,
[11:12] Speaker 2: twenty and twenty one, right about beating your slave. You
[11:15] Speaker 2: can beat your slave and if he regains consciousness within
[11:18] Speaker 2: forty eight hours, Hey, no problem, we'll just start there absolutely.
[11:22] Speaker 3: So what we find in Exos twenty one, verse twenty
[11:25] Speaker 3: and twenty one is an interesting like we're we're not
[11:28] Speaker 3: going to call it a prohibition, We're just gonna call
[11:30] Speaker 3: it a regulation of like, hey, here's what happens if
[11:34] Speaker 3: you do this, And it says when a slave owner
[11:36] Speaker 3: strikes a male or female slave with a rod and
[11:38] Speaker 3: the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished.
[11:41] Speaker 2: Oh.
[11:41] Speaker 3: Interesting. Well, first of all, the thing to note is
[11:44] Speaker 3: that this is most likely just a Hebrew slave. The
[11:46] Speaker 3: entire chapter is dealing with Hebrew slaves. It doesn't say
[11:50] Speaker 3: anthing about foreign slaves here, so we're not sure if
[11:52] Speaker 3: this applied to foreign slaves or not, but it's not critical.
[11:56] Speaker 3: The next verse is really interesting. So the reason why
[12:00] Speaker 3: in verse twenty the man is going to be avenged,
[12:04] Speaker 3: most likely is because he's Hebrew, Like, you wouldn't avenge
[12:06] Speaker 3: the killing of a foreigner. You would avenge the killing
[12:09] Speaker 3: of a Hebrew because he's one of your own kin.
[12:11] Speaker 3: And if you beat him so severely that it literally
[12:13] Speaker 3: says in the Hebrew, if he dies under your hand,
[12:16] Speaker 3: meaning while you're beating them. If you beat him so
[12:19] Speaker 3: severely that they die while you're beating them, then you're
[12:21] Speaker 3: in trouble. You just committed murder. But if the slave
[12:25] Speaker 3: survives a day or two, there's no punishment, for the
[12:28] Speaker 3: slave is the owner's property. And this is really important.
[12:30] Speaker 3: The hebertext uses the verb a mod which literally means
[12:34] Speaker 3: to stand or survive. Some older translations used to say
[12:39] Speaker 3: if they if they are revived after a day or two,
[12:45] Speaker 3: but that's not really what it says. What both these
[12:48] Speaker 3: passages talking about a slave that dies say says if
[12:52] Speaker 3: they survive for a day or two, which means they
[12:55] Speaker 3: don't live they die after a day or two, It
[12:58] Speaker 3: says there's no punishment because he is the owner's property.
[13:01] Speaker 3: So what that means is there's a presumption of innocence
[13:05] Speaker 3: where you can't tie the death of this slave to
[13:08] Speaker 3: the beating that it received because it was a couple
[13:11] Speaker 3: days later. And so this is even if you think
[13:16] Speaker 3: that the Bible is only doing indentured serviantude. The idea
[13:20] Speaker 3: that you can beat a slave so severely that if
[13:25] Speaker 3: it dies in a couple of days, you won't be
[13:27] Speaker 3: punished for it as horrific even if you only think
[13:31] Speaker 3: it's temporary. Now, as you pointed out in Exus twenty one,
[13:34] Speaker 3: it's not temporary. In fact, there are two different slaves
[13:38] Speaker 3: that we find in Excess twenty one that are one
[13:41] Speaker 3: Hebrew and two permanent. In verse two, we learn about
[13:46] Speaker 3: a temporary male Hebrew slave because when you buy a
[13:49] Speaker 3: male Hebrew slave, he shall serve you for six years,
[13:51] Speaker 3: but in the seventh year he shall go out a
[13:53] Speaker 3: free person without debt. Awesome. That's an indentured servant says.
[13:57] Speaker 3: If he comes in single, he shall go out single.
[14:00] Speaker 3: If he comes and married, then his wife shall go
[14:02] Speaker 3: out with him. Interesting sounds like more indentured servitude. Verse
[14:06] Speaker 3: four is where you get the fun stuff. If his
[14:09] Speaker 3: master gives him a wife, which is in his ability
[14:12] Speaker 3: to do, the woman doesn't have to consent. She's property.
[14:15] Speaker 3: If his master gives them a wife and she bears
[14:17] Speaker 3: them sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall
[14:20] Speaker 3: be her masters and he shall go out alone.
[14:22] Speaker 1: Oh.
[14:23] Speaker 3: Interesting, So an owner can choose to breed the women
[14:29] Speaker 3: in his household the slaves like livestock, and if they
[14:34] Speaker 3: produce children, that woman and her children remain property of
[14:37] Speaker 3: the master. They don't get to go free. Even if
[14:40] Speaker 3: they get married to this guy and have children, they
[14:43] Speaker 3: don't get to go when that guy goes free. They're
[14:45] Speaker 3: still permanent property. So God one commands permanent property in
[14:51] Speaker 3: verse four. And then he tricks you. If you're like,
[14:54] Speaker 3: if you get this woman, and you're like, listen, I
[14:56] Speaker 3: don't want to leave my family, well then you can
[14:59] Speaker 3: play to be a permanent slave to this master. What
[15:02] Speaker 3: a horrific solution like that. He could have done ten
[15:06] Speaker 3: other things. He could have said, well, let him go free.
[15:08] Speaker 3: He could have said, well, I don't know, make them
[15:09] Speaker 3: work another seven years. He didn't do any of that.
[15:11] Speaker 3: He said, nope, if you want to be with your
[15:13] Speaker 3: wife and your children, you have to be permanent slaves.
[15:16] Speaker 3: So there's a second instance of saying do permanent slavery.
[15:19] Speaker 3: Verse seven we get another instance. This says, when a
[15:22] Speaker 3: man sells his daughter as a slave, which you could do.
[15:25] Speaker 3: You can just sell your daughter as a slave or
[15:27] Speaker 3: your son as a slave does, he shall serve. She
[15:30] Speaker 3: shall not go out as the male slaves do. So
[15:33] Speaker 3: when the woman goes and gets sold into servitude, he
[15:36] Speaker 3: serves perpetually. She doesn't get to go free. Well why
[15:40] Speaker 3: would that be the case, Well, it's clear because in
[15:43] Speaker 3: the passage she becomes somebody's concubine. In the ancient Near East,
[15:47] Speaker 3: when you sold somebody as a slave, her her body
[15:51] Speaker 3: was yours, her sexual reproduction was yours. She didn't have autonomy.
[15:55] Speaker 3: But it says if she does not please her master,
[15:58] Speaker 3: who designated her for himself, then he shall let her
[16:02] Speaker 3: be redeemed. So he can just buy a slave and
[16:06] Speaker 3: then decide to you know, to go into her. This
[16:10] Speaker 3: wasn't what she didn't ask for this, And we find
[16:13] Speaker 3: other passages. There's a passage in Leviticus where if you
[16:17] Speaker 3: sleep with another man's slave, you have to pay him
[16:19] Speaker 3: restitution if you took her virginity. Interesting, if you take
[16:22] Speaker 3: the virginity of somebody else's slave, whether it's forced or not,
[16:26] Speaker 3: you have to pay the fine for a property crime.
[16:30] Speaker 3: Because that woman that you purchased, most of her value,
[16:34] Speaker 3: a lot of her value is in her virginity, not
[16:37] Speaker 3: just in her ability to work, but also in her virginity.
[16:39] Speaker 3: And this was common in the Encienteer East. If you
[16:41] Speaker 3: read a lot of the engineers during slave contracts, we
[16:43] Speaker 3: got a bunch from the ancient city of Mari that
[16:47] Speaker 3: talk about women being both adopted and purchased so that
[16:52] Speaker 3: they can become wives of somebody else. So you could
[16:55] Speaker 3: literally adopt a baby girl with the intention of one
[17:00] Speaker 3: day this girl will marry so and so. Like, we
[17:03] Speaker 3: need a wife for so and so, there's not one
[17:05] Speaker 3: in the family, so we're going to go adopt this
[17:08] Speaker 3: child and raise it so it will be the wife
[17:10] Speaker 3: of so and so. And they did the same thing
[17:12] Speaker 3: with slaves. If there was we had a young man
[17:14] Speaker 3: that needed a wife and there was no near kin
[17:17] Speaker 3: or no one suitable for them, because you wanted to
[17:20] Speaker 3: keep it within the family so that you didn't cause divisions.
[17:23] Speaker 3: Well what do you do. Will you go buy a
[17:25] Speaker 3: slave girl who has no other option, and you make
[17:27] Speaker 3: her marry this young man. Women were just bought and
[17:31] Speaker 3: sold like property. So when you see concubines in the
[17:34] Speaker 3: Hebrew Bible, they're not that much different than sex slaves.
[17:39] Speaker 2: Is there a tribal distinction, then I mean the difference
[17:43] Speaker 2: between chattel and debt slaves. Did that usually come down
[17:46] Speaker 2: to whether they were Israeliance or whether they were foreigners.
[17:50] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the biggest distinction. So what we find in
[17:54] Speaker 3: the Hebrew Bible is that there's a whole different set
[17:56] Speaker 3: of laws for foreigners and non foreigners. So, for example,
[18:00] Speaker 3: you can't charge interest on a loan to an Israelite.
[18:02] Speaker 3: You can charge interest on a loan to a foreigner.
[18:05] Speaker 3: If you are owed money by an Israelite, you can't
[18:09] Speaker 3: at any point just walk up and say today, I
[18:12] Speaker 3: need all my money back. You're like, you can't just
[18:13] Speaker 3: go in exact the money because you want it. But
[18:16] Speaker 3: if a foreigner owes you money, you can decide on
[18:19] Speaker 3: your own when you want when you go and exact
[18:22] Speaker 3: that money, and if they don't have your money, you
[18:24] Speaker 3: do the Bob Moss treatment to them. But we find
[18:27] Speaker 3: also in Leviticus twenty five a very clear instance of
[18:31] Speaker 3: God saying, listen, your fellow Israelites, don't don't enslave them.
[18:35] Speaker 3: It's literally talking about men, which we'll touch on, but
[18:38] Speaker 3: he's like, don't enslave your fellow Israelite brethren. Enslave these
[18:42] Speaker 3: foreigners instead. And why is that the case? Ah, Because
[18:46] Speaker 3: the Israelites they're my slaves, They're God's slaves. Right. So
[18:50] Speaker 3: in verse thirty nine does if any who are dependent
[18:53] Speaker 3: on you become so impoverished that they sell themselves to you,
[18:56] Speaker 3: you shall not make them service slaves. Gotcha?
[18:58] Speaker 2: Okay?
[18:59] Speaker 3: They shall re The main with you is hired or
[19:01] Speaker 3: bound laborers a Hebrew like a shakir in Hebrew is
[19:04] Speaker 3: somebody who works for money. But they still they still
[19:10] Speaker 3: are bound to you, even though they're getting paid. Says
[19:13] Speaker 3: they shall remain with you as hired or bound laborers.
[19:15] Speaker 3: Say They'll serve with you until the year of Jubilee.
[19:18] Speaker 3: Then then their children shall go free out from your authority.
[19:21] Speaker 3: They shall go back to their own family and return
[19:23] Speaker 3: to their ancestral property. For they are my slaves who
[19:27] Speaker 3: I brought out of Egypt. And they shall not be
[19:30] Speaker 3: sold as slaves are sold. But you shall not rule
[19:32] Speaker 3: over them with harshness, and you shall fear your God.
[19:35] Speaker 3: As for the male and female slaves whom you will have. Now,
[19:40] Speaker 3: some translations say may which is interesting. The literal Hebrew
[19:44] Speaker 3: text doesn't say may have. It says of the ones
[19:48] Speaker 3: that will be to you. That's the direct literal translation
[19:52] Speaker 3: of the slaves that will be to you, meaning the
[19:55] Speaker 3: slaves that you will have. It says you may acquire
[19:58] Speaker 3: them from among the aliens residing with you, and from
[20:01] Speaker 3: their families who are with you, who have been born
[20:03] Speaker 3: in your land. They may be your property Hebrew ahuza.
[20:07] Speaker 3: Here it refers to actual movable property, like property that
[20:11] Speaker 3: you own as a possession. It is yours. It's not temporary.
[20:15] Speaker 3: It says you may keep them as a possession for
[20:17] Speaker 3: your children after you, for them to inherit as property forever.
[20:21] Speaker 3: So it says that they become your property Alam forever.
[20:25] Speaker 3: And so what this means is that there's just a
[20:27] Speaker 3: different classification for foreigners. You don't have to treat foreigners
[20:32] Speaker 3: with the same level of kindness that you treat your
[20:35] Speaker 3: own brethren, which is why it says in the same verse,
[20:38] Speaker 3: verse forty six says, but as for your fellow Israelites,
[20:42] Speaker 3: no one shall rule over the other with harshness. So
[20:46] Speaker 3: what we're learning here then is that, listen, you can't
[20:49] Speaker 3: be harsh to your fellow brethren. But it doesn't say
[20:53] Speaker 3: anything about the foreigners. If you want to be harsh
[20:56] Speaker 3: towards the foreigners. You know, be my guest, you can
[20:59] Speaker 3: do that. And God doesn't seem to care that much
[21:03] Speaker 3: about the foreigners being slaves, because even in the Messianic promise,
[21:09] Speaker 3: So if you go to Treteau Isaiah third Isaiah, we
[21:13] Speaker 3: find in chapter sixty this really interesting restoration promise. For
[21:18] Speaker 3: like the New Age does the nation and kingdom that
[21:22] Speaker 3: shall not serve you shall perish. Those nations shall be
[21:27] Speaker 3: utterly laid waste. So God's holy vision is for eventually
[21:32] Speaker 3: all the nations to serve the nation of Israel. This
[21:36] Speaker 3: is not a God that cares if people are enslaved.
[21:40] Speaker 2: More with Justin d Z. Next, I want to continue
[21:43] Speaker 2: with women in the Bible. I don't know how many
[21:45] Speaker 2: times I've heard people say that God says you must
[21:47] Speaker 2: honor women, and I'm like, have you read the Old
[21:50] Speaker 2: and New Testament. We're going to get into more of
[21:52] Speaker 2: than next. Your support on paidreon makes such a big difference.
[22:02] Speaker 2: You get the show early in commercial free. Thank you
[22:05] Speaker 2: so much for signing up as a patron at paytreon
[22:09] Speaker 2: dot com. Slash Seth Andrew's continuing our Bible study now
[22:14] Speaker 2: with Justin d Z of deconstruction zone. Speaking again to
[22:21] Speaker 2: women as property in the Old Testament, reminded of numbers.
[22:25] Speaker 2: It's Moses's army, and I'm going after the Midianites and
[22:29] Speaker 2: the virgins taken as plunder right. And then I think
[22:34] Speaker 2: Moses got pissed off because not everyone was slaughtered. I'm
[22:37] Speaker 2: doing this from memory. You want to take me there justin.
[22:41] Speaker 3: Yeah, So God wants to do vengeance against the midi
[22:44] Speaker 3: Nites for what happened at Pure So basically, some women
[22:49] Speaker 3: induced the Israelite men to fornicate and to worship foreign gods,
[22:55] Speaker 3: and God's like, listen, we need to avenge. What he
[23:00] Speaker 3: means by avenge is we gotta go wipe them out.
[23:02] Speaker 3: And this is typically this follows what we find in Deuteronomy.
[23:06] Speaker 3: And Deuteronomy God says, if somebody from another neighboring town
[23:10] Speaker 3: induces you to worship their deities, and you prostitute yourself
[23:15] Speaker 3: to their deities, well you go and you genocide the
[23:18] Speaker 3: entire town. You wipe them all out. So we find
[23:21] Speaker 3: that happening in number thirty one. Now what is interesting
[23:24] Speaker 3: is it looks like the Israelite warriors were like, I
[23:27] Speaker 3: don't know, maybe we don't have to do a complete genocide.
[23:31] Speaker 3: Maybe we can save the women and children, which is
[23:34] Speaker 3: what you're allowed to do according to Deuteronomy chapter twenty
[23:36] Speaker 3: In Deuteronomy chapter twenty one, so they're like, I don't know,
[23:39] Speaker 3: maybe we preserve some of these women or some of
[23:44] Speaker 3: the children too. And Moses says, nope, he is mad.
[23:47] Speaker 3: In verse thirteen, it says Moses eliers or the priests,
[23:51] Speaker 3: and all the leaders of the congregation went to meet
[23:53] Speaker 3: them outside of the camp. And Moses became angry at
[23:56] Speaker 3: the officers of the army. Well, why is he angry?
[23:59] Speaker 3: Does the verse sixteen, and these women here on Balem's
[24:02] Speaker 3: advice made the Israelites act treacherously against the Lord in
[24:05] Speaker 3: the affair of pure so that the plague came among
[24:09] Speaker 3: the congregation of the Lord. Now, therefore, kill every male
[24:13] Speaker 3: among the little ones, and kill every woman who is
[24:16] Speaker 3: known a man by sleeping with them. So what we
[24:19] Speaker 3: find it doesn't say women the and the ones being
[24:23] Speaker 3: killed are children. They're referred to in Hebrew as hataf,
[24:28] Speaker 3: that means the children. Verse eighteen says, but among the
[24:32] Speaker 3: young girls, these are children, girls, child girls. In fact,
[24:37] Speaker 3: I believe in the nuke in the King James, it says,
[24:39] Speaker 3: children girls says, but the young girls who have not
[24:43] Speaker 3: known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourself.
[24:46] Speaker 3: So he say, okay, we're gonna save these girls, well
[24:50] Speaker 3: for the like the warriors and the people of Israel.
[24:52] Speaker 3: And I mean, what do you think that they're gonna
[24:55] Speaker 3: they're gonna do with them? Right, Well, you might. There's
[24:58] Speaker 3: two problems that the apologist is gonna out. They're going
[25:00] Speaker 3: to say, well, Moses said to do this, not God.
[25:03] Speaker 3: Well that's wrong if you keep reading. They're also going
[25:05] Speaker 3: to say, well, they weren't used as war brides. Well,
[25:09] Speaker 3: that's also preposterous because their virginity wouldn't be in question.
[25:12] Speaker 3: If they just wanted slaves, they would have kept the
[25:15] Speaker 3: little boys alive and they wouldn't care about their virginity.
[25:18] Speaker 3: And also we're going to touch on Judges twenty one,
[25:21] Speaker 3: which will fix this up. But also God in verse
[25:24] Speaker 3: thirty two chimes in right, says, then Moses and aliars
[25:30] Speaker 3: are the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses, and
[25:33] Speaker 3: then we get the command that Lord gave them, says
[25:36] Speaker 3: the plunder remaining from the spoils that the troops had
[25:38] Speaker 3: taken totaled six hundred and seventy five thousand sheep, seventy
[25:42] Speaker 3: two thousand oxen, sixty one thousand donkeys, and thirty two
[25:47] Speaker 3: thousand persons, in all women who have not known a
[25:50] Speaker 3: man by sleeping with him. So now we learn that
[25:53] Speaker 3: the plunder that God commanded them to take includes the
[25:56] Speaker 3: women who didn't know a man. And then what happens.
[26:00] Speaker 3: They get divided up. They're given to the soldiers, and
[26:05] Speaker 3: it tells you that some of them, unfortunately, it appears
[26:09] Speaker 3: they may actually have gotten sacrificed as well. There's some
[26:13] Speaker 3: debate as to whether or not they actually got sacrificed,
[26:16] Speaker 3: but it says they also separated the portion as God
[26:19] Speaker 3: commanded for the troops in verse forty two. So if
[26:23] Speaker 3: God is saying, listen, take these little virgin girls and
[26:26] Speaker 3: hand them out to the troops, what do you think
[26:30] Speaker 3: they're doing with them? What do you think these young,
[26:33] Speaker 3: bloodthirsty warrior men are doing with these little virgin children girls? Well,
[26:40] Speaker 3: we don't have to guess. Judges twenty one describes exactly
[26:45] Speaker 3: what we would expect. In Judges twenty one, they're dealing
[26:49] Speaker 3: with the fact that the Benjaminites don't have any women
[26:52] Speaker 3: to marry because the rest of the Israelites made a
[26:55] Speaker 3: pledge not to give daughters to them because of what
[26:57] Speaker 3: happened to the Levites concubine the bench. Knightes, there's a
[27:02] Speaker 3: whole story starting in chapter nineteen about the Levi andis concubine,
[27:07] Speaker 3: but it results in this pledge that might mean that
[27:11] Speaker 3: Benjamin's going to get wiped out from the land of
[27:14] Speaker 3: Israel because they don't have any girls to intermarry with.
[27:17] Speaker 3: So they devise a plan. How do we fix this problem?
[27:20] Speaker 3: Says now, the Israelites sworn at Mizpod no one shall
[27:24] Speaker 3: give his daughter to marriage to Benjamin. And the people
[27:26] Speaker 3: came to Bethel and sat there until evening before God.
[27:30] Speaker 3: They lived up their voices and wept bitterly. So now
[27:32] Speaker 3: they're pleading before God. God, give us an answer with
[27:35] Speaker 3: this Benjamin situation. And they said, Oh, Lord, God of Israel,
[27:38] Speaker 3: why does it come to pass that today we should
[27:40] Speaker 3: be one tribe lacking in Israel. On the next day,
[27:43] Speaker 3: the people got up early and built an altar there
[27:46] Speaker 3: and offered burnt offerings and sacrifices as well. Being Then
[27:48] Speaker 3: the Israelites said, who out of all the tribes of
[27:51] Speaker 3: Israel did not come up to the assembly of the Lord.
[27:54] Speaker 3: They're like, Okay, who didn't actually go to battle with us?
[27:57] Speaker 3: Is there a tribe that didn't go to battle with
[27:58] Speaker 3: us that we can hate? And he says that one
[28:01] Speaker 3: shall be put to death? So they're like, Ah, if
[28:04] Speaker 3: there's a tribe that didn't actually go to war with us,
[28:06] Speaker 3: they're not really part of us. We're gonna put them
[28:08] Speaker 3: to death, says But the Israelites had compassion for Benjamin
[28:10] Speaker 3: and their cans and said, one tribe is cut off
[28:13] Speaker 3: from Israel today, what shall we do for the wives
[28:16] Speaker 3: of those who are left? Since we have sworn by
[28:19] Speaker 3: the Lord that we will not give any of them
[28:21] Speaker 3: our daughters in marriage. Then they said, is there anyone
[28:24] Speaker 3: from the tribes of Israel who did not come up
[28:26] Speaker 3: with the Lord to Mispa. It turned out that no
[28:29] Speaker 3: one from Jabesh Gilead had come up to the camp
[28:32] Speaker 3: to the assembly, So like, ah, gotcha, we found a
[28:35] Speaker 3: tribe that didn't go to war with us, So what
[28:38] Speaker 3: are we going to do about it? So they're like,
[28:40] Speaker 3: We're gonna go and massacre this tribe and take their women. Says,
[28:46] Speaker 3: this is what they shall do. Every male and every
[28:48] Speaker 3: woman who is laying with a male, you shall devote
[28:52] Speaker 3: to destruction. So anyone who's not a virgin, kill them,
[28:56] Speaker 3: wipe them out, says And they found among the inhabitants
[28:59] Speaker 3: of Jabesh four hundred young virgins who had never slept
[29:03] Speaker 3: with a man, and brought them to the camp at Shiloh,
[29:05] Speaker 3: which is in the land of Canaan. So here we
[29:08] Speaker 3: already know that the Israelites are out there looking for young,
[29:12] Speaker 3: little virgin girls that they can slaughter their families and
[29:16] Speaker 3: take as captive wives. This is a practice that they did.
[29:19] Speaker 3: It's a practice that everybody else in the ancient nearest
[29:22] Speaker 3: was doing. And that's why number thirty one. Almost all
[29:26] Speaker 3: scholars agree that these women would have been taken as
[29:30] Speaker 3: slaves and concubine, and Deuteronomy twenty one allows it. Deuteronomy
[29:35] Speaker 3: twenty one says, if you take a woman captive, and
[29:38] Speaker 3: you find among the captives a hotty toddy, and you
[29:40] Speaker 3: want to make your your wife, you can take her
[29:42] Speaker 3: into your house, clipper and nails, shave her head, letter,
[29:44] Speaker 3: mourn for thirty days for her dying or her dead
[29:46] Speaker 3: mother and father, and then you can go into her.
[29:49] Speaker 3: So this is just acceptable behavior for the Israelites.
[29:53] Speaker 2: It's also somebody in my community raised it's kind of
[29:56] Speaker 2: a graphic question. But how was it determined whether or
[29:59] Speaker 2: not the young girls were virgins? And my brain doesn't
[30:03] Speaker 2: even want to go there. Right, Interesting you mentioned Deuteronomy
[30:06] Speaker 2: twenty one because it says that if the soldier ends
[30:08] Speaker 2: up not being happy with the woman he just kidnapped
[30:11] Speaker 2: and totally altered her appearance, he can sort of release
[30:14] Speaker 2: her like a stray cat. Oh hey, thanks anyway, have
[30:17] Speaker 2: a nice life, right.
[30:18] Speaker 3: Yeah, And this really defeats the bad apologetic of well
[30:23] Speaker 3: this was saving the women. God was concerned about these
[30:26] Speaker 3: women and wanted to preserve them. Well that's not true.
[30:30] Speaker 3: If by preserving them he was like providing for them
[30:34] Speaker 3: through this war marriage, well then he wouldn't have said, hey,
[30:39] Speaker 3: if they don't please you, you can just send them away. Right.
[30:42] Speaker 3: If this was really about protecting the women, he could
[30:44] Speaker 3: have said, Okay, set up a fund, take a tax,
[30:48] Speaker 3: put a safety net together, and take care of these
[30:50] Speaker 3: women and children that came from the battle because they've
[30:53] Speaker 3: got nothing to depend on. But he doesn't do that.
[30:55] Speaker 3: He says, hey, if you see a hot one. By
[30:57] Speaker 3: the way, that's the category if you see a hot one.
[31:01] Speaker 3: He didn't say all the women. It's like, if you
[31:03] Speaker 3: see a hot one, Hayker, you can have her, but listen,
[31:06] Speaker 3: if she doesn't please you, you can let her go. Right,
[31:09] Speaker 3: So he certainly wasn't concerned with like helping the women out.
[31:14] Speaker 3: If they was concerned about that, then he wouldn't have
[31:16] Speaker 3: commanded them to murder all of their children.
[31:20] Speaker 2: Let's do some bullets real fast. I mean, let's just
[31:23] Speaker 2: skip through some other examples of why the Old and
[31:27] Speaker 2: or New Testament fall apart under scrutiny.
[31:31] Speaker 3: I think one of the most overlooked issues between the
[31:36] Speaker 3: Old Testament and the New Testament is like this idea
[31:40] Speaker 3: of the afterlife, heaven, hell, and how do we go
[31:43] Speaker 3: from one to the other. Right, So, in the Hebrew Bible,
[31:46] Speaker 3: we don't really have a hell. We've got shei old.
[31:48] Speaker 3: It's like the realm of the dead, where everybody goes,
[31:51] Speaker 3: there's no distinction. And there's this idea like there's going
[31:54] Speaker 3: to be a resurrection at some point. Possibly we find
[31:57] Speaker 3: this in the Book of Isaiah, find it in Daniel
[32:01] Speaker 3: chapter twelve. This idea that like the righteous the truly
[32:04] Speaker 3: righteous will be vindicated eventually and will rise. We even
[32:07] Speaker 3: find it in the Book of Job. So there is
[32:10] Speaker 3: this idea that some people will come out of sheiol
[32:13] Speaker 3: and possibly if Daniel's true, some others will come out
[32:16] Speaker 3: of Siole, but they'll be punished. But there's not this
[32:19] Speaker 3: idea that like, hey, listen, like if you follow this
[32:23] Speaker 3: law and you're you're not like you fail, like you're
[32:26] Speaker 3: not perfect, well, now God has to light you on
[32:29] Speaker 3: firefall of eternity. That's just not the case. In fact,
[32:32] Speaker 3: the ancient conception was that while righteousness was living according
[32:36] Speaker 3: to the law, the goal is that your righteousness needs
[32:39] Speaker 3: to exceed your unrighteousness. It's like putting your righteousness on
[32:44] Speaker 3: a scale and weighing it against your unrighteousness. As long
[32:48] Speaker 3: as your unrighteousness didn't outweigh your righteousness, like you were
[32:51] Speaker 3: going to have a positive afterlife. And so we find
[32:54] Speaker 3: this in you know, ancient neuristern texts, We find it
[32:57] Speaker 3: in Egyptian literature. It's a common thing, and so that's
[33:02] Speaker 3: kind of the Old Testament conception. In fact, even in
[33:05] Speaker 3: the in the Ecclesiastes Solomon, if you think Solomon wrote it,
[33:11] Speaker 3: is like, listen, the dead know nothing. Whoever is writing
[33:14] Speaker 3: Ecclesiastes doesn't know. He doesn't believe in an afterlife, that's
[33:18] Speaker 3: for sure. That's why everything is vanity. So that's like
[33:22] Speaker 3: a huge problem because the New Testament is built on
[33:25] Speaker 3: this idea that there's a hell. If you're not perfect,
[33:29] Speaker 3: you're going there. God's got a torture for all eternity.
[33:32] Speaker 3: But it doesn't matter if you're righteous, doesn't matter if
[33:35] Speaker 3: you're a good person. If you don't want to go
[33:38] Speaker 3: to hell, you have to believe in this sky carcass
[33:41] Speaker 3: and the nonsense that he preached. You'll never find anything
[33:44] Speaker 3: like that in the Hebrew Bible.
[33:46] Speaker 2: It is a great point, right, It's only was it
[33:48] Speaker 2: Christopher Hitchins who said it wasn't until gentle Jesus, meek
[33:51] Speaker 2: and mild that we saw this threat of eternal torture.
[33:55] Speaker 2: The apologists like to go back and forth on whether
[33:58] Speaker 2: or not it's a literal hell, but I always good
[34:00] Speaker 2: back to Matthew twenty five, Right, depart, you who are
[34:03] Speaker 2: cursed into a lake of everlasting fire, prepared for the
[34:06] Speaker 2: devil and his angels. How do apologist try to get
[34:08] Speaker 2: around that? It's a tough one.
[34:11] Speaker 3: So you've pointed out one of the contradictions in the
[34:14] Speaker 3: New Testament. So Paul and Jesus are both guilty of
[34:18] Speaker 3: this where they're like, they say, listen, unless you believe
[34:21] Speaker 3: in me, right, you're going to hell. But then Paul's
[34:26] Speaker 3: on this whole trick of like, well, it's by belief alone,
[34:30] Speaker 3: it's by faith alone, right, But then he goes on
[34:33] Speaker 3: and he's like, also in one Corinthian sixty nine, if
[34:36] Speaker 3: you commit all these sins, you're going to hell. Also
[34:38] Speaker 3: in Revelation twenty one Versus seven and eight, if you
[34:41] Speaker 3: commit these sins, you're going to hell. And Jesus himself
[34:44] Speaker 3: talked about various sins. If you commit these sins like
[34:47] Speaker 3: the unforgivable sin, you know you're going to hell. And
[34:50] Speaker 3: some of the most famous passages, like in Matthew five,
[34:52] Speaker 3: he says like, hey, listen, if your eye causes you
[34:55] Speaker 3: to lust, pluck it out. If your arm causes you
[34:57] Speaker 3: to sin, cut it off, because it's better to to
[35:00] Speaker 3: go into the kingdom missing one, he remembers, and to
[35:05] Speaker 3: have your whole body thrown into hell. So if that's
[35:08] Speaker 3: the case, like if if committing sins means that you're
[35:12] Speaker 3: you could go to hell. Then, like this whole like
[35:15] Speaker 3: salvation by faith alone, just it doesn't check out. If
[35:18] Speaker 3: it's by faith alone, it doesn't matter what sin you commit.
[35:22] Speaker 3: You can commit any sin other than the unforgivable sin
[35:25] Speaker 3: and can still go to heaven. But though that contradicts
[35:28] Speaker 3: directly Jesus is his own words, like you said in
[35:30] Speaker 3: Matthew twenty five, is a depart from me. You workers
[35:33] Speaker 3: of iniquity? Well, I mean, if you're a worker of iniquity,
[35:36] Speaker 3: who isn't everybody's a worker of iniquity? Right? So it's
[35:40] Speaker 3: an interesting it's an interesting new Destmer problem. How could
[35:43] Speaker 3: be by faith alone? But also if you're a worker
[35:46] Speaker 3: of iniquity, which we all are. Romans three twenty three
[35:49] Speaker 3: says everyone has fallen short of glory of God, Well,
[35:51] Speaker 3: then nobody goes to happen apparently.
[35:53] Speaker 2: Well, it's another doctrinal debate, right James. Chapter two says
[35:57] Speaker 2: faith without works is dead. So wait a minute. I
[36:00] Speaker 2: might say by faith, but if I don't have works,
[36:02] Speaker 2: then my faith is nullified. And then what about the
[36:05] Speaker 2: people who have a deathbed conversion and didn't have time
[36:08] Speaker 2: to do good works? Is that faith nullified. Right the
[36:11] Speaker 2: apologist squabble over that one as well.
[36:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, and it goes back to this whole nonsense of
[36:18] Speaker 3: like faith verse works. You know, James famously said that
[36:21] Speaker 3: faith of that works is dead. I think James is
[36:23] Speaker 3: writing and responding to Pauline doctrine. And I don't think
[36:28] Speaker 3: Paul really knew what Jesus taught most of the time,
[36:30] Speaker 3: maybe some of it, which is why he had this
[36:33] Speaker 3: faith by works or of faith, not by works. But
[36:36] Speaker 3: Jesus would have contradicted it if Jesus lived after Paul. Jesus
[36:39] Speaker 3: would have thought Paul was an idiot. Jesus himself, in
[36:43] Speaker 3: Matthew five, literally says the exact opposite of Paul. Paul
[36:48] Speaker 3: says in Pheesians, chapter two, verse fourteen fifteen that Jesus
[36:51] Speaker 3: abolished the law in all of its commandments. But that
[36:54] Speaker 3: certainly couldn't be the case because it's a direct contradiction
[36:57] Speaker 3: of Matthew five seventeen through nineteen, where Jesus. I don't
[37:01] Speaker 3: think Jesus made the following the law like the only
[37:05] Speaker 3: thing you have to do to obtain salvation. He obviously
[37:08] Speaker 3: thinks that you have to believe in him he says,
[37:10] Speaker 3: no man comes to the Father except through me. But
[37:13] Speaker 3: Jesus did not abolish the law word for word, bar
[37:16] Speaker 3: for bar. He contradicts Ephesian chapter two and says, I've
[37:20] Speaker 3: come not to abolish, but to fulfill. Well, fulfill doesn't
[37:23] Speaker 3: mean abolish, doesn't mean it goes away. If you think
[37:25] Speaker 3: fulfilled says that the law goes away, then that just
[37:29] Speaker 3: means abolish. And he said I didn't come to abolish,
[37:33] Speaker 3: That means fulfilled must mean like, actually bring it to completion,
[37:37] Speaker 3: but not make it go away. Now, most scholars will
[37:40] Speaker 3: tell you that when Jesus says fulfill, what he really
[37:43] Speaker 3: means is, I'm bringing the law to a more complete form.
[37:49] Speaker 3: Like I'm giving you like the law is basic, right,
[37:52] Speaker 3: I'm giving you the dressed up version. I'm giving you
[37:56] Speaker 3: the hard stuff. Right, I'm taking the law of Moses
[37:59] Speaker 3: that I'm I'm making it full. That's why if you
[38:02] Speaker 3: look at how he changed it in the same chapter,
[38:04] Speaker 3: he doesn't say not to follow the law. He makes
[38:07] Speaker 3: it harder. He adds to the law, which is a
[38:11] Speaker 3: violation of Deuteronomy four Versus one and two. But that's
[38:13] Speaker 3: neither here nor there. That's why Jesus goes on to say,
[38:16] Speaker 3: for truly, I tell you, until heaven and earth passed away,
[38:18] Speaker 3: not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will
[38:20] Speaker 3: pass away from the law until all is accomplished. And
[38:23] Speaker 3: some Christians will quit reading there, But they need to
[38:26] Speaker 3: read the next verse. Therefore, whoever that's anybody whoever breaks
[38:30] Speaker 3: one of the least of these commandments and teaches others
[38:32] Speaker 3: to do the same, will be called least in the
[38:34] Speaker 3: Kingdom of heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them
[38:37] Speaker 3: will be called great in the kingom of Heaven. So,
[38:38] Speaker 3: according to Jesus, if you want to be great in
[38:41] Speaker 3: the Kingdom of Heaven, you got to follow the law.
[38:43] Speaker 3: That's why, when the ritual ruler comes to him and says,
[38:45] Speaker 3: what must I do to inherit eternal life, he says,
[38:48] Speaker 3: follow the commandments. When he heals the leper, he says,
[38:52] Speaker 3: go present yourself at the temple according to the law
[38:54] Speaker 3: of Moses. Jesus in the Gospels say a single word
[38:59] Speaker 3: about the law going away, and he ends Matthew twenty
[39:02] Speaker 3: eight by telling the disciples, go and teach people all
[39:05] Speaker 3: that I have commanded you. Well, he commanded you to
[39:07] Speaker 3: follow the law which means Jesus's telling you to go
[39:11] Speaker 3: teach people to follow the law.
[39:13] Speaker 2: It's also interesting to watch the New Covenant believers who
[39:16] Speaker 2: have essentially written off the entire Old Testament ten commandments.
[39:21] Speaker 2: They want the ten Commandments hung through about our culture
[39:24] Speaker 2: and the du well, hang on. If the New Covenant
[39:26] Speaker 2: trumped the Old and the Old is now obsolete because
[39:29] Speaker 2: it was a different time blah blah blah, then how
[39:31] Speaker 2: much of the Old Testament have you just written off?
[39:33] Speaker 2: And how would God feel about that? Right?
[39:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the double edged sword that the Christian has
[39:40] Speaker 3: to deal with. If you want to say that the
[39:41] Speaker 3: law was done away with, then that means all of
[39:44] Speaker 3: the law. If you're going to use Jesus's words to
[39:47] Speaker 3: get rid of the law, then you can't subdivide it
[39:50] Speaker 3: and say, well except for these ones, these ones that
[39:52] Speaker 3: I like, even though the tenth Commandment they hate because
[39:55] Speaker 3: it includes slavery. Like, there's nothing in the Bible that
[39:59] Speaker 3: secctions off the law into different categories. In the Hebrew Bible.
[40:05] Speaker 3: The best you'll get is there's a mention in the
[40:08] Speaker 3: Hebrew Bible of the decalogue as like the ten these
[40:10] Speaker 3: ten commandments are a little bit unique. But the New
[40:13] Speaker 3: Testament doesn't do that. The New Testament never says that
[40:16] Speaker 3: you should follow the ten commandments, only you'll never find
[40:20] Speaker 3: it there. In fact, even the two most important commands
[40:22] Speaker 3: from Matthew twenty two, Jesus says to love the Lord
[40:25] Speaker 3: you got with all your mineheart and soul. That's Deuteronomy six'.
[40:28] Speaker 3: Five then he, says love your neighbor as yourself As
[40:31] Speaker 3: leviticus nineteen. Eighteen neither one of them part of the Ten.
[40:34] Speaker 3: Commandments so to be, clear the two most important commandments
[40:38] Speaker 3: are not part of the, ten which means you can't
[40:41] Speaker 3: then go and, say, Well jesus wants you to follow
[40:44] Speaker 3: only the ten. Commandments, well that can't be. True the
[40:46] Speaker 3: two most important ones don't even come from the. Ten
[40:49] Speaker 3: and if you look at the rich young, ruler the
[40:51] Speaker 3: last thing he tells the rich young ruler is to
[40:55] Speaker 3: follow a commandment that's not part of the ten. Commandments
[40:58] Speaker 3: so just following the ten. Amendments it's not a rubric
[41:02] Speaker 3: That jesus lays. Out this is something That christians have
[41:06] Speaker 3: to invent because they're, like oh, gosh if we get
[41:08] Speaker 3: rid of all the, LAWS i guess we don't have
[41:10] Speaker 3: any moral.
[41:11] Speaker 2: Structure you've been so generous with your. TIME i want
[41:14] Speaker 2: to get back, to like maybe one or two more
[41:16] Speaker 2: of your greatest. HITS i do want to address. Something
[41:18] Speaker 2: there is a fallacious argument THAT i hear some atheists,
[41:21] Speaker 2: make and some believers get into. THIS i know some
[41:25] Speaker 2: more progressive pastors say That jesus never condemned. Homosexuals of
[41:30] Speaker 2: course we get into, well if you're right off The Old,
[41:32] Speaker 2: covenant then That's leviticus and its condemnation of gay, people.
[41:35] Speaker 2: Etc but The New testament never does. That that's not.
[41:39] Speaker 2: Accurate you get Into. ROMANS i think it's In, Carinthians. Firs.
[41:43] Speaker 2: Timothy there's a lot there are. Scriptures Not jesus didn't
[41:47] Speaker 2: say the, words but there are scriptures against abominations quote
[41:51] Speaker 2: unquote unnatural, acts men lying with, men women lying with.
[41:55] Speaker 2: Women so The New testament does condemn. HOMOSEXUALITY i think
[42:00] Speaker 2: it's important to draw that distinction and, say you, know
[42:03] Speaker 2: you can't say it's ONLY O t And jesus was
[42:05] Speaker 2: all light and. Love that's, fair isn't? It justin it's
[42:09] Speaker 2: totally as.
[42:09] Speaker 3: Fair let's imagine for a second that you're A christian
[42:13] Speaker 3: and you believe That leviticus does condemn, homosexuality and that
[42:16] Speaker 3: the destruction Of, soadakamorra Despite ezekiel saying that it was about,
[42:21] Speaker 3: hospitality that you, know homosexuality was part of the, problem
[42:24] Speaker 3: WHICH i actually agree with. THAT i think part of
[42:26] Speaker 3: the description of The sodomites and also those From gibbea
[42:33] Speaker 3: during The levites concubine. Story the reason why they describe
[42:36] Speaker 3: them specifically as wanting to sexualize the men is because
[42:40] Speaker 3: they believe that that was an indicator of. Evil, so
[42:44] Speaker 3: but imagine for a second that that's just now part
[42:46] Speaker 3: of The Old testament. Law, well if you Believe jesus's, words,
[42:50] Speaker 3: Well jesus says to follow The Old testament, law as
[42:52] Speaker 3: we just, discussed which means you can't just throw the
[42:55] Speaker 3: law away and, say well that's, old we don't care
[42:57] Speaker 3: about that, anymore because he's said to follow. It. Now
[43:01] Speaker 3: the other problem you have Is. Paul paul literally says
[43:04] Speaker 3: In First corinthians chapter six that the male better is
[43:10] Speaker 3: going to not inherit the, kingdom meaning a man who
[43:14] Speaker 3: shares a bed with another. Man that seems to be,
[43:16] Speaker 3: problematic and we get a similar situation In romans chapter,
[43:20] Speaker 3: one where he talks about homosexuality engaging in unnatural, lusts
[43:26] Speaker 3: and he, says even the. Women, now it was common
[43:30] Speaker 3: for men sometimes In Roman Greco roman culture to engage
[43:35] Speaker 3: in sexual acts with other, men but women, less so
[43:40] Speaker 3: it was seen as like a special form of, debauchery
[43:46] Speaker 3: like because it was more. Rare and So paul that's
[43:50] Speaker 3: like his. Capstone he's, like even the women exchange natural
[43:54] Speaker 3: relations with men for other. Women So paul's, like, nah,
[43:58] Speaker 3: man this is not. Good SO i know there's a
[44:01] Speaker 3: big effort in the church and with liberal scholars to
[44:05] Speaker 3: make homosexually homosexual stuff go. Away they, say, well it's
[44:10] Speaker 3: not exactly the way it is. Today they're not really
[44:12] Speaker 3: talking about consensual loving, relationships or they're just talking about the.
[44:17] Speaker 3: Act there's so many things you can do to make
[44:20] Speaker 3: it go. Away to, me this is a. COPE i get.
[44:23] Speaker 3: IT i read the scholar. LITERATURE i know there's an
[44:25] Speaker 3: argument to be made. HERE i know there, Is but
[44:29] Speaker 3: from an atheist, Standpoint i'm reading this book from WHAT
[44:32] Speaker 3: i know about the ancient. Culture i'm, saying, listen they
[44:35] Speaker 3: thought homosexuality was a. Sin that's why it's demonized in The.
[44:38] Speaker 3: Bible rather than trying to make it go. Away just
[44:42] Speaker 3: throw The bible, out get rid of. It you don't
[44:45] Speaker 3: need it's not helping. You rather than trying to say
[44:48] Speaker 3: words don't mean. Words just get rid of the. Book
[44:51] Speaker 3: you don't need.
[44:51] Speaker 2: It you Mentioned. SODOM i go back To genesis. Nineteen,
[44:55] Speaker 2: Right lot one of the heroes of The Old, testament
[44:58] Speaker 2: and he's got the two male angels in his house
[45:02] Speaker 2: as his, guests and the man Of sodom rise up
[45:05] Speaker 2: because they want to have homosexual relations with the male.
[45:09] Speaker 2: Angels and what Does lot. Do he's, like, ah, crap, no, no,
[45:12] Speaker 2: no we don't want. That let me protect my guests,
[45:15] Speaker 2: HERE i have two virgin. Daughters let me throw them
[45:18] Speaker 2: out the door to, you and then you can do
[45:20] Speaker 2: whatever you want with. Him and Yet lot still remained
[45:24] Speaker 2: a biblical hero of the. Story right.
[45:27] Speaker 3: Yeah in, fact if you Read jude And Tewod, Peter
[45:32] Speaker 3: lot is lauded as like a righteous. Man if you
[45:36] Speaker 3: go To Second, peter chapter, TWO i believe it talks About. Lot.
[45:40] Speaker 3: Yeah down in verse six seven and, eight it, says
[45:45] Speaker 3: if he Rescued, lot a righteous man really distressed by
[45:50] Speaker 3: the debauchery of. Lawlessness, wait what a righteous. MAN i
[45:54] Speaker 3: mean you. Can you can offer your virgin daughters as
[45:57] Speaker 3: playtoys to these barbarians and you're a righteous. Man that's.
[46:02] Speaker 3: Crazy the funniest thing about that, story, too which people,
[46:05] Speaker 3: forget is remember how the story. Resolves the angels strike
[46:09] Speaker 3: the men outside of the house, blind which Means lot
[46:13] Speaker 3: could have just asked the angels to do something for
[46:16] Speaker 3: him like HE i THINK i personally think That lot
[46:19] Speaker 3: knew that they weren't just, men even though it refers
[46:21] Speaker 3: to him as. MEN i think A lot probably knew
[46:25] Speaker 3: they were, special knew they were, angels and so like
[46:27] Speaker 3: A lot could have been, like, Hey, god is there
[46:30] Speaker 3: anything we could do about? This but that's not what he.
[46:32] Speaker 3: Did he, Did i'm going to offer my. Daughters the
[46:34] Speaker 3: other problem is the. Angels they knew that they were,
[46:37] Speaker 3: angels they knew that they had special. Power they could
[46:40] Speaker 3: have stepped in Before lot offered his, daughters and, like
[46:44] Speaker 3: we got, it A lot just Killed just sit over, here.
[46:46] Speaker 3: Right so the whole story is.
[46:48] Speaker 2: Bananas you've Got god watching the whole thing go, down
[46:52] Speaker 2: so beyond the power of the, Angels god could have, said,
[46:55] Speaker 2: hey none of this, right none of these Shenanigans i'm
[46:58] Speaker 2: going to stop the whole, thing and our last, SEGMENT
[47:02] Speaker 2: i Asked justin if there's anything else he wants to
[47:05] Speaker 2: talk about some of the stuff that's in his wheelhouse
[47:07] Speaker 2: and on his mind in regard to The bible that's.
[47:10] Speaker 2: Coming i'm just. Second lots of free thought events on
[47:18] Speaker 2: the conference calendar already for twenty twenty, six and more
[47:21] Speaker 2: are coming in all the. Time so, far it's Me
[47:24] Speaker 2: Forrest valkei And Gutzig Gibbon march seventh And, tulsa The
[47:28] Speaker 2: Western Canadian Reason conference In calgary first weekend In. May
[47:33] Speaker 2: coming Up august twenty first through the twenty, third It's
[47:36] Speaker 2: Baja khan In, Sarnia, ontario and Then Rocket City reason In, Huntsville,
[47:41] Speaker 2: alabama third weekend In. October details on all of this
[47:45] Speaker 2: with links and everything at The thinkingatheist dot com slash.
[47:50] Speaker 2: Events Our bible study continues now with my special Guest
[47:55] Speaker 2: justin de Z. Any final example thoughts before we put
[48:01] Speaker 2: a punctuation mark on, It BEFORE i let you, Go, Justin.
[48:04] Speaker 3: I've got a lot of hours of debate footage and
[48:07] Speaker 3: videos of me talking about How jesus fulfilled exactly zero messianic.
[48:12] Speaker 3: Prophecies So i'm not going to go over that. Today
[48:15] Speaker 3: there's dozens of videos of me on the internet doing.
[48:18] Speaker 3: That BUT i do want to go over one of
[48:21] Speaker 3: my favorite topics in The bible THAT i don't think
[48:23] Speaker 3: it's enough, love, namely like the cosmology of The bible
[48:27] Speaker 3: is absolute. Bananas they have no idea what the real
[48:33] Speaker 3: cosmos is, like and they depict a cosmos that is, small.
[48:39] Speaker 3: Localized there's a flat Disc earth with a dome over
[48:42] Speaker 3: top of, it And god lives on the dome and
[48:45] Speaker 3: that's part of the. Sky some of the newer translations
[48:48] Speaker 3: just say. It it just says, dome like The nabre THE,
[48:52] Speaker 3: NASRV nrsv, Says god, said let there be a dome
[48:57] Speaker 3: in the midst of the, water and let it separate
[49:00] Speaker 3: water from. Waters So god made a dome and it
[49:02] Speaker 3: separated the waters that were under the dome and the
[49:05] Speaker 3: waters that were above the. Dome And god called the dome.
[49:08] Speaker 3: Sky how Sham iam In hebrew and The hebrews, understood
[49:11] Speaker 3: according to The, bible That god lived at the top
[49:14] Speaker 3: of the, dome like he walked on top of the.
[49:17] Speaker 3: Dome and we've got passages Describing god walking on the,
[49:21] Speaker 3: dome and they described it as being. Hard In, job
[49:25] Speaker 3: he says it's hard like a cast metal. Mirror That's
[49:29] Speaker 3: job thirty, Seven verse eighteen says it's hard as a molten. Mirror,
[49:35] Speaker 3: Okay so we got this hard dome And god lives
[49:38] Speaker 3: up there according To psalm one fifty verse one and
[49:42] Speaker 3: says also In job verse twenty two, fourteen thick clouds
[49:46] Speaker 3: in wrap. Him So god's in the clouds so that
[49:50] Speaker 3: he does not see and he walks on the dome Of.
[49:53] Speaker 3: Heaven what you can walk on The dome Of? Heaven, well,
[49:57] Speaker 3: yeah because it's a, hard lean, dome which is why
[50:01] Speaker 3: when A zehiel goes up to visit the, dome he,
[50:04] Speaker 3: says like it's it looks like. Sapphire and we get
[50:07] Speaker 3: something as well In access twenty four when the elders
[50:10] Speaker 3: go up on the mountain and they Visit, god they
[50:13] Speaker 3: see like something like sapphire under his. Feet so we
[50:17] Speaker 3: just we have all these references to this idea that
[50:21] Speaker 3: there's a dome over the, earth and it says that
[50:24] Speaker 3: the stars are up in. There If genesis one Says
[50:28] Speaker 3: god set them in the dome of the sky and
[50:31] Speaker 3: gave light upon The, earth referring to like the celestial.
[50:33] Speaker 3: Bodies so according to The, bible the celestial bodies are
[50:38] Speaker 3: like up at the bottom of the, Dome it, says
[50:41] Speaker 3: the birds fly across the face of the. Dome god
[50:45] Speaker 3: lives on top of the dome and walks on the
[50:47] Speaker 3: top of the. Dome and the only problem they have
[50:50] Speaker 3: to solve is, like, well how does how Does god
[50:53] Speaker 3: live on top of the dome the dome if there's
[50:54] Speaker 3: water up? There, well the rabbis tell you in The,
[50:57] Speaker 3: tulmud there's a, gap there's an air gap created By god's,
[51:02] Speaker 3: spirit and the water is above the air, gap And
[51:04] Speaker 3: god lives in that air gap between the water and
[51:07] Speaker 3: between the, dome and that was their.
[51:10] Speaker 2: Cosmology doesn't the dome also play into the genesis flood? Myth,
[51:15] Speaker 2: right because there was water somehow above the dome in,
[51:19] Speaker 2: space and then apparently the water On earth and the
[51:22] Speaker 2: water from above the firmament combined to flood The. EARTH
[51:26] Speaker 2: i Think i'm remembering that.
[51:27] Speaker 3: Correctly, so, yeah the windows Of, heaven you, know open
[51:32] Speaker 3: up this idea that the dome had like windows or
[51:37] Speaker 3: doors in it that could let like atmospheric stuff, down
[51:41] Speaker 3: like rain or snow that was definitely up in. There
[51:44] Speaker 3: and if you're in the ancient world and you look,
[51:46] Speaker 3: up you're, like, well why is the sky? Blue, well
[51:48] Speaker 3: because there's water up, there that's why the sky is.
[51:50] Speaker 3: Blue and there's a. Dome if you just stand on
[51:52] Speaker 3: a high hill and turn, around it's obviously a dome.
[51:55] Speaker 3: Shape and that's what they. Believe and we get in
[51:58] Speaker 3: some later, literature like in The book Of, enoch we
[52:00] Speaker 3: get like a really good description of what we find
[52:03] Speaker 3: in the. Dome in, Fact i've GOT i have a
[52:06] Speaker 3: whiteboard with. ME i don't know IF i have my
[52:08] Speaker 3: whiteboard up. Here but so Basically enoch is, like, listen the.
[52:13] Speaker 3: Sun the sun travels around the, earth, right how is that?
[52:17] Speaker 3: Gonna how's that? Happening? Right so he's, like, listen we've
[52:20] Speaker 3: got this dome and the dome at the at the
[52:23] Speaker 3: base of, it where it meets the, earth well there's.
[52:26] Speaker 3: Windows so he's he's, like, listen the sun goes like,
[52:30] Speaker 3: This it goes across the bottom of the dome out
[52:33] Speaker 3: the window below the, earth back in another window in
[52:37] Speaker 3: the cross the face of the dome. Again and so
[52:39] Speaker 3: that's How enoch is trying to figure out how does
[52:42] Speaker 3: The sun go around The earth if The earth is
[52:44] Speaker 3: encased in a dome like obviously there's windows in, it
[52:48] Speaker 3: and so ancient cosmology is just.
[52:50] Speaker 2: Wild all, right final, Question i'm going to send everybody
[52:54] Speaker 2: to your page because we could go on or, not
[52:56] Speaker 2: and let me ask a final question that would take
[52:58] Speaker 2: three weeks to properly, answer Because i'm kind of an asshole.
[53:02] Speaker 2: Justin but one of the things that we talk about
[53:06] Speaker 2: is how much Of yahweh as a, god how many
[53:09] Speaker 2: of the stories of The Old testament are borrowed from earlier,
[53:13] Speaker 2: cultures perhaps earlier, religions other gods and. Mythologies AND i
[53:18] Speaker 2: know many don't call it plagiarism because there were sort
[53:21] Speaker 2: of genre, gods there were genre flood, stories. Etc so
[53:25] Speaker 2: many religions were expected to have certain types of tales
[53:29] Speaker 2: in their. Scriptures but do you get in at all
[53:31] Speaker 2: too how much of this stuff is not?
[53:33] Speaker 3: Original SO i used TO i personally don't find that
[53:41] Speaker 3: it's helpful in the deconstruction, work Although i've written a
[53:46] Speaker 3: lot of articles on my website over the years about,
[53:48] Speaker 3: this and the first eleven chapters are typically referred to
[53:52] Speaker 3: as a primeval history and what you'll find in the
[53:55] Speaker 3: first eleven chapters Of genesis is almost every story in,
[53:59] Speaker 3: there almost everyone has A babylonian Or sumerian. Counterpart even The,
[54:03] Speaker 3: tower there's A sumerian story about people coming together to
[54:08] Speaker 3: build a mound and they all spoke the same, language
[54:11] Speaker 3: and then the gods looked. Down it was, like, nope
[54:14] Speaker 3: not going to have, that and they they impeded the
[54:17] Speaker 3: work of building the, mound and then they scattered the
[54:20] Speaker 3: people in their. Language like everything, there everything's copied from babylon,
[54:24] Speaker 3: mythology even the creation Of adam And. Eve in babylon,
[54:27] Speaker 3: mythology they took the clay of the earth and molded
[54:30] Speaker 3: into a, human and Then god put his breath into
[54:32] Speaker 3: it and also blood into. It so there's two divine
[54:37] Speaker 3: things inside of every. Human one is. Blood that's Why
[54:40] Speaker 3: leviticus says that the life is in the, blood and
[54:42] Speaker 3: two is the, spirit the wind Of. God that's why
[54:45] Speaker 3: when we, die you, know the spirit leaves. Us we're
[54:48] Speaker 3: no longer not breathing. Anymore so it's like we're basically
[54:52] Speaker 3: just like dirt, bags and we're being animated by, life
[54:57] Speaker 3: and that life comes from The. Gods that means part
[55:00] Speaker 3: of the gods are living in, us and that's what
[55:02] Speaker 3: animates our, dirt, bags the blood and the wind Of.
[55:05] Speaker 3: God and you'll find that in The babylonian, literature and
[55:09] Speaker 3: so like just, everything like this idea that entities came
[55:13] Speaker 3: down and made it with humans and created. Giants it's
[55:16] Speaker 3: in The babylonian. Literature this idea of like a sacred
[55:21] Speaker 3: tree in the garden and snakes robbing the humanity of.
[55:25] Speaker 3: Immortality that's the epic Of gilgamesh and the epic Of.
[55:28] Speaker 3: Gogomesh he goes like basically the edge of known existence
[55:31] Speaker 3: to Find utnapishtam to figure out how he can become,
[55:34] Speaker 3: immortal and in doing so he discovers as a plant
[55:38] Speaker 3: at the bottom of the sea Of. Death he dives
[55:40] Speaker 3: down into, it gets the plant and is on the
[55:42] Speaker 3: shore of the of the water when a snake comes
[55:46] Speaker 3: and snags the plant of immortality away from, him and
[55:51] Speaker 3: then he never gets to be.
[55:52] Speaker 2: Immortal gilgamesh, too and then like the flood, story, right
[55:55] Speaker 2: the gods become irritated with humankind and decide to flood
[55:58] Speaker 2: the whole damn planet to.
[56:00] Speaker 3: Do, yeah we've got four different editions of the flood
[56:04] Speaker 3: narrative at least prior to the biblical, version and so
[56:09] Speaker 3: were they, Copying, yeah obviously they're obviously. Copying the other thing,
[56:14] Speaker 3: too is like the idea of the. Boat that's super.
[56:18] Speaker 3: Common every flood narrative has like somebody with a boat
[56:23] Speaker 3: that is like being preserved via the. Boat why The
[56:27] Speaker 3: god sent the flood, changes that's one thing that. Changes
[56:31] Speaker 3: and the creation of humankind and the relationship To god
[56:34] Speaker 3: is a little bit. Different like the gods in The
[56:38] Speaker 3: babylonian narratives are like annoyed by the humans because they're
[56:40] Speaker 3: making too much noise down, Here, like, hey we created
[56:43] Speaker 3: these humans to do our work for, us but they're
[56:45] Speaker 3: actually making a whole bunch of, noise and so maybe
[56:47] Speaker 3: we should just wipe them. Out that's a little bit
[56:49] Speaker 3: different in the. Story one thing that's not different, though
[56:52] Speaker 3: is that humans were created to do the work Of.
[56:54] Speaker 3: God so like even In genesis it says That adam
[56:58] Speaker 3: was placed in the, garden like typical translation will say
[57:01] Speaker 3: something like to work the garden or to tend to the,
[57:05] Speaker 3: garden but actually used as the same root word for,
[57:08] Speaker 3: slave so it is an evid so Like adam is
[57:13] Speaker 3: a slave in the, garden which matches the biblical narrative
[57:16] Speaker 3: where humans are created to kind of Do god's.
[57:19] Speaker 2: Work we can talk all, night we can talk to
[57:22] Speaker 2: sundown and probably to. Sunrise this is my. Jam where
[57:26] Speaker 2: do people find you and your? WORK i want to
[57:28] Speaker 2: make sure they have a chance to see some of
[57:30] Speaker 2: your long form productions. There, yeah thanks for.
[57:33] Speaker 3: Asking So i've got a TikTok channel in two YouTube,
[57:37] Speaker 3: channels And i'll explain WHY i have two YouTube. Channels
[57:40] Speaker 3: i've got one that is dedicated to just. Debates it's
[57:43] Speaker 3: CALLED Dz, debates where it's literally just old, school you,
[57:47] Speaker 3: know horizontal, format just me doing. Debates i've also got another,
[57:51] Speaker 3: channel my main, channel which is Called Deconstruction, zone and
[57:54] Speaker 3: it's got my, debates most of them in vertical, format
[57:58] Speaker 3: and also got all kinds of other. Stuff i've got
[58:00] Speaker 3: educational content. There i've got interviews over. There i'm doing
[58:04] Speaker 3: some interviews right now with people who are like Ex
[58:06] Speaker 3: mormon and getting into The mormon. Lore AND i even
[58:09] Speaker 3: got some shorts THAT i post. There SOMETIMES i have
[58:12] Speaker 3: a short THAT i put on Like instagram or on
[58:16] Speaker 3: TikTok THAT i really like That i'll throw up on
[58:19] Speaker 3: that channel as, well so it's kind of my catch all.
[58:21] Speaker 3: Channel then on TikTok it's deconstruction Dot, zone which is
[58:25] Speaker 3: kind of WHERE i got my. START i have started
[58:28] Speaker 3: A facebook and An instagram for people who don't do
[58:31] Speaker 3: YouTube and. TikTok you can find me at basically the
[58:34] Speaker 3: same handles at Deconstruction, zone AND i do have a link.
[58:38] Speaker 3: Tree if you go to my YouTube page or my TikTok,
[58:40] Speaker 3: Page i'll have a link. Tree it's all my. Links
[58:42] Speaker 3: you can find me in whatever social media you're interested.
[58:46] Speaker 2: In i'll throw the link tree in the description box
[58:49] Speaker 2: for ease. Debates it's. Funny this is just an ASSIGN
[58:55] Speaker 2: i had an email from somebody In Kent hoven's camp
[59:00] Speaker 2: otherwise known as inmates zero six four or five threeho one,
[59:03] Speaker 2: seven and they Said kenthoven is interested in having you
[59:09] Speaker 2: Debate god on his. Channel AND i looked at the
[59:12] Speaker 2: email AND i clicked, reply AND i, said thank you
[59:16] Speaker 2: so much for the. INVITATION i would rather put a
[59:19] Speaker 2: campfire out with my face yours In Christ Seth, andrews
[59:24] Speaker 2: AND i clicked send AND i have not heard. Back so,
[59:28] Speaker 2: anyway the apologist who wanted to Debate, god you. Know
[59:32] Speaker 2: sometimes it's, fun sometimes it's. Not i'm sure you've seen.
[59:35] Speaker 2: Both justin thank you so much for a compelling. Conversation
[59:40] Speaker 2: we got to do this, again So i'll have my
[59:42] Speaker 2: people call your people or vice.
[59:44] Speaker 3: Versa, okay, well thanks for having. ME i really appreciate
[59:47] Speaker 3: it and looking forward to more. Conversations let's do.
[59:51] Speaker 1: It Follow The Thanking atheist On facebook And twitter for
[59:55] Speaker 1: a complete archive of podcasts and, videos products like muggs
[59:59] Speaker 1: and t shirts featuring The Thinking atheist, logo links to
[1:00:02] Speaker 1: atheist pages and, resources and details on upcoming free thought
[1:00:06] Speaker 1: events and. Conventions log onto our, Website The thinkingatheist dot.
[1:00:11] Speaker 1: Com

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