# The Insurrection Act: Martial Law in the United States

An episode of [TheThinkingAtheist](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/412308695), 11 Apr 2025, 41 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/mgln.ai/e/711/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/65528522/podcast798_insurrectionact.mp3

The vaguely-defined Insurrection Act of 1807 is being invoked against "enemies" of the United States. Is martial law on the table? CAMERA FUND DONATION: https://www.thethinkingatheist.com/support ARTICLE: https://wagingnonviolence.org/2025/04/what-to-do-if-the-insurrection-act-is-invoked/ The HandsOff2025 protest video: https://youtu.be/Q1mhNlttG28?si=fU9fTAGxQEbuTESH Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/thethinkingatheist--3270347/support.

## Transcript

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[2:11] Speaker 2: There was an article that was posted on a blog
[2:15] Speaker 2: page called Waging Nonviolence People Powered News and Analysis by
[2:22] Speaker 2: a guy named Daniel Hunter. He is founder of the
[2:25] Speaker 2: organization Choose Democracy and he has done work all around
[2:30] Speaker 2: the world and he has written several books, including one
[2:33] Speaker 2: called what will You Do If Trump Wins? And Building
[2:38] Speaker 2: a Movement to End the New Jim Crow And of
[2:42] Speaker 2: course Jim Crow refers to the system of racial segregation
[2:47] Speaker 2: and discrimination against African Americans in the Southern States here
[2:52] Speaker 2: in the US in the mid twentieth century, and that's
[2:56] Speaker 2: a whole other conversation anyway. This guy is a human
[2:58] Speaker 2: rights activist and published an article a few days ago
[3:02] Speaker 2: called what to do if the Insurrection Act is inoked.
[3:07] Speaker 2: Wait a minute, what's the Insurrection Act? And I'm embarrassed
[3:12] Speaker 2: that I'm not fully aware of what that is or
[3:15] Speaker 2: what's going on. But as we head toward the middle
[3:18] Speaker 2: to the end of April, it is more and more
[3:21] Speaker 2: on everybody's mind. It's being posted about in major news outlets.
[3:25] Speaker 2: The Insurrection Act. Holy cow, this sounds important. So I
[3:28] Speaker 2: did some homework. I'm going to read Daniel Hunter's words
[3:32] Speaker 2: to you from April fourth of this year. I will
[3:36] Speaker 2: include a link to this article in the show notes.
[3:38] Speaker 2: He said, with President Trump constantly flooding the zone, there's
[3:44] Speaker 2: a chance to think ahead about the possible implementation of
[3:47] Speaker 2: the Insurrection Act. One of Trump's presidential actions calls for
[3:52] Speaker 2: the Secretary of Defense and Homeland Security to submit a
[3:56] Speaker 2: joint report by April twentieth. The report will quote any
[4:01] Speaker 2: recommendations regarding additional actions that may be necessary to obtain
[4:07] Speaker 2: complete operational control of the southern border, including whether to
[4:13] Speaker 2: invoke the Insurrection Act of eighteen oh seven. President Trump
[4:18] Speaker 2: loves direct control and so it strikes me that invoking
[4:23] Speaker 2: the Insurrection Act is very likely. This occasionally used provision
[4:28] Speaker 2: empowers the president with few legal limitations to deploy US
[4:34] Speaker 2: military and federalized National Guard troops inside the country. Part
[4:40] Speaker 2: of Trump's power resigns and constantly growing the myth he
[4:44] Speaker 2: can get away with anything, even when he loses or retreats.
[4:48] Speaker 2: He buries the news cycle with the goal of leaving
[4:51] Speaker 2: people feeling more fear than awe. So when we first
[4:55] Speaker 2: hear about the Insurrection Act, it may trigger our alarmism,
[4:59] Speaker 2: but better to face it now before it comes, then
[5:02] Speaker 2: learn about it on the fly. With that in mind,
[5:05] Speaker 2: I'm going to walk through some mechanisms of the Insurrection Act,
[5:09] Speaker 2: then offer lessons from previously held strategy sessions I took
[5:14] Speaker 2: part in that played out various scenarios. I will also
[5:17] Speaker 2: offer a few suggestions for activists about what to do
[5:22] Speaker 2: about it. Daniel Hunter writes, what is the Insurrection Act?
[5:28] Speaker 2: The Insurrection Act is a dusty law that has gone
[5:32] Speaker 2: without updates for two hundred years. The original text states
[5:38] Speaker 2: that in all cases of insurrection or obstruction to the laws,
[5:42] Speaker 2: the President of the United States can call forth the
[5:46] Speaker 2: militia or armed forces for the purpose of suppressing such insurrection. Technically,
[5:53] Speaker 2: it is now not just one law, but a series
[5:56] Speaker 2: of statutes in titled ten of the US Code. One
[6:00] Speaker 2: might wonder what the law defines as an insurrection, and
[6:04] Speaker 2: it's woefully undefined. Updated modern language merely calls it quote
[6:11] Speaker 2: unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellions. While the Supreme
[6:18] Speaker 2: Court has upheld that the President alone can decide the
[6:22] Speaker 2: meaning of these words, it reserved for itself a chance
[6:25] Speaker 2: to review the constitutionality of the military's actions, but the
[6:30] Speaker 2: courts would have to enforce that provision. Notably, the Posse
[6:35] Speaker 2: Comitatis Act, which blocks the military from being involved in
[6:39] Speaker 2: civilian law enforcement, is suspended under the Insurrection Act. The
[6:45] Speaker 2: role of the military is to quote assist civilian authorities,
[6:49] Speaker 2: but not replace them, so this is not technically martial law.
[6:54] Speaker 2: In theory, Trump could order the Army to go door
[6:57] Speaker 2: to door searching for undocked documented residents. The Coastguard could
[7:02] Speaker 2: aggressively patrol the border. Marines could be asked to shut
[7:06] Speaker 2: down legal protests. Then the actions would be subject to
[7:11] Speaker 2: federal court review on their constitutionality. The Insurrection Act has
[7:16] Speaker 2: been used a lot. President Lincoln in the Civil War,
[7:19] Speaker 2: President Grant against the Ku Klux Klan, President Johnson to
[7:24] Speaker 2: win school segregation, and most recently, President Bush invokeed during
[7:29] Speaker 2: the La riots. As legal experts have said, the door
[7:34] Speaker 2: is wide open for abuse. Almost ten months ago, I
[7:39] Speaker 2: joined at table thomp scenario run by the advocacy group
[7:43] Speaker 2: Brennan Center for Justice. One scenario was Donald Trump invoking
[7:48] Speaker 2: the Insurrection Act to secure the border and supplement ICE's
[7:53] Speaker 2: ability to make arrests of undocumented immigrants across the country.
[7:58] Speaker 2: We had political operations an ex military in the room
[8:02] Speaker 2: who proceeded step by step about how orders would unfold.
[8:06] Speaker 2: It was sheer chaos with some key lessons in our scenario.
[8:12] Speaker 2: When Trump ordered door to door raids, the military bulk
[8:16] Speaker 2: its leaders were unhappy having their personnel emerging from war
[8:21] Speaker 2: zones in Afghanistan and Iraq, who don't know constitutional rights
[8:26] Speaker 2: interact with civilians. Ranking military knew it was a dangerous cocktail.
[8:33] Speaker 2: As I recall, Northcom, the Combatant Command responsible for homeland defense,
[8:38] Speaker 2: took the order, sent it to lawyers over at the
[8:41] Speaker 2: Judge Advocate generals as a delay tactic, but jag unhealthfully
[8:47] Speaker 2: approved it right away, so Northcom came back with insufficient
[8:52] Speaker 2: plans for the full scale operation Trump envisioned. They willingly
[8:57] Speaker 2: send troops to the border, an easy success for Trump
[9:00] Speaker 2: to show, but kept their troops away from interactions with civilians.
[9:06] Speaker 2: This was not good enough for Trump in our simulation. Frustrated,
[9:11] Speaker 2: he tried to rearrange the military so he could give
[9:13] Speaker 2: direct orders to activate National Guard troops and parts of
[9:17] Speaker 2: the army now reordered under his Department of Defense. Sorting
[9:22] Speaker 2: out a new team took some time that was slowed
[9:26] Speaker 2: down by a few mid tier military officials, largely through
[9:31] Speaker 2: extensive debates about how to pay for the unfunded and
[9:34] Speaker 2: expensive operation. They were eventually fired. In our scenario, the
[9:40] Speaker 2: troops were duly ordered to work in coordination with ICE,
[9:44] Speaker 2: but as an accommodation, their orders were largely related to surveillance,
[9:49] Speaker 2: and they did so somewhat ineffectively. Frustrated, Trump deputized right
[9:56] Speaker 2: wing militias to help on the Borderitary contractors have a real,
[10:02] Speaker 2: leaked twenty five billion dollar proposal to do this. Here,
[10:07] Speaker 2: it got dangerous fast. Private militia swarmed the border. In
[10:12] Speaker 2: our scenario, the militia got too aggressive and ended up
[10:16] Speaker 2: shooting eight people who were crossing. A video of it leaked.
[10:20] Speaker 2: This created public outrage. The court suddenly kicked into gear,
[10:25] Speaker 2: and in our scenario, Trump fired the militia, quietly declaring
[10:30] Speaker 2: them a massive success, and turned back to the trained military.
[10:36] Speaker 2: Here were some of the broad takeaways from our exercise.
[10:40] Speaker 2: The courts were fully ineffective at slowing things down early
[10:44] Speaker 2: and could only win cases after constitutional violation. Trump, as
[10:50] Speaker 2: usual would claim massive powers to act with impunity and
[10:54] Speaker 2: shock his opposition, but his actual ability was moderately restrained
[11:00] Speaker 2: a reluctant military and public outrage. Our scenario did not
[11:05] Speaker 2: play out beyond this point. Almost a year ago, I
[11:10] Speaker 2: published Scenarios of a Trump presidency and an interactive guide
[11:14] Speaker 2: what if Trump wins. One scenario explored Trump ordering the
[11:19] Speaker 2: Insurrection Act on day one of his presidency, so I'm
[11:23] Speaker 2: surprised he has waited this long. If Trump's regime was
[11:28] Speaker 2: stacked with brilliant but ruthless tacticians, use of the Insurrection
[11:32] Speaker 2: Act would be merely a prelude to a greater restriction
[11:37] Speaker 2: of freedoms beyond the border, culminating in the use of
[11:40] Speaker 2: the military against protesters in Blue State cities. While Project
[11:45] Speaker 2: twenty twenty five is a roadmap, I'm less convinced of
[11:49] Speaker 2: their ability to plan long term signal gates and self
[11:53] Speaker 2: defeating tariffs VI. A quote instinct should avail us of that,
[11:58] Speaker 2: And crucially, the fans at the top do not have
[12:01] Speaker 2: the trust or knowledge of their institutions. Secretary of Defense
[12:06] Speaker 2: Pete Hagsath can give orders, but his ignorance limits his
[12:10] Speaker 2: ability to move things through the bureaucracy. Perhaps the delay
[12:15] Speaker 2: in invoking the Insurrection Act has been to make sure
[12:18] Speaker 2: Trump's people are in place more than anything. They are
[12:22] Speaker 2: winging it. Move fast, break things, don't apologize, keep breaking things.
[12:29] Speaker 2: One should note the narrowness of Trump's proclamation that could
[12:33] Speaker 2: lead to the Insurrection Act being invoked. It's framed as
[12:37] Speaker 2: being used for operational control of the southern border, not
[12:43] Speaker 2: broader mass deportation or what some of us feared, targeting
[12:47] Speaker 2: nearly all anti Trump political activity. This means the Insurrection
[12:53] Speaker 2: Act may be initially more focused. Folks on the border
[12:57] Speaker 2: will bear the brunt of further militarization, spite and already
[13:01] Speaker 2: heavily militarized border where crossings have dropped dramatically. Trump's desire
[13:07] Speaker 2: to criminalize protest against him is obvious. ICE is effectively
[13:12] Speaker 2: kidnapping Green card holders who have only exercised their freedom
[13:16] Speaker 2: of speech, such as Mohammed Khali and Rumiyesa Osterk. One
[13:22] Speaker 2: executive order attempts to criminalize protesting in Washington, DC, and
[13:28] Speaker 2: the FBI is on a McCarthy like venture looking for quote,
[13:32] Speaker 2: domestic terrorism among anti Tesla protests. It therefore appears that
[13:38] Speaker 2: Trump would relish the opportunity to use the Insurrection Act
[13:42] Speaker 2: more broadly against opponents. If the first move is somewhat
[13:46] Speaker 2: limited in scope the border and ICE enforcement, then he
[13:50] Speaker 2: will look for a violent spark that he can claim
[13:54] Speaker 2: as pretext to expand the scope more widely. Violence of
[13:58] Speaker 2: protests could be the quickketest way for him to get there.
[14:02] Speaker 2: This could take the form of protesters engaging in disciplined
[14:06] Speaker 2: acts of property destruction, but better for Trump if there
[14:10] Speaker 2: were scenes of bloody street fights. If his opponents don't
[14:14] Speaker 2: hand it to him, prepare for him to egg on
[14:17] Speaker 2: already twitchy counter protesters or use agent provocateurs. Violence in
[14:23] Speaker 2: the streets feeds Trump's strongman image. This is consistent with
[14:29] Speaker 2: the authoritarian playbook authoritarians love some violence in the street.
[14:35] Speaker 2: It allows them to swoop in with crackdowns they claim
[14:38] Speaker 2: will protect the population from criminals. In fact, ordinary scared
[14:43] Speaker 2: people may even call for crackdowns to quote restore peace.
[14:49] Speaker 2: To make these moves backfire, we can actively project calm
[14:53] Speaker 2: and communicate a commitment to order, kindness and nonviolence. We
[14:59] Speaker 2: can use positive messaging and calmly explain the likelihood of
[15:03] Speaker 2: future repression in a way that reduces fear. We can
[15:07] Speaker 2: behave in ways that inspire, like mass dancing in the
[15:11] Speaker 2: street or standing clearly for values like Sunrise movements protests
[15:16] Speaker 2: with school desks outside the threatened Department of Education. If
[15:21] Speaker 2: they can't bait the movement into violence, then they'll almost
[15:24] Speaker 2: certainly instigate it. In nineteen ninety Serbia, Slobodon Melosovich called
[15:30] Speaker 2: upon the paramilitary to show up at the same date
[15:33] Speaker 2: and location of planned opposition protests. When inevitable violence happened,
[15:39] Speaker 2: he'd order the military to crack down severely on protesters.
[15:44] Speaker 2: This seems like a playbook Trump would know how to follow.
[15:48] Speaker 2: Once a pretext is declared, our fight cannot be internally
[15:53] Speaker 2: about how we got there, Whether there's violence by agent provocateurs,
[15:58] Speaker 2: or frustrated folks from our side. We have to seek
[16:01] Speaker 2: unity amongst the broadest coalition. Our response has to be
[16:06] Speaker 2: swift and unified. We need to loudly condemn all state
[16:10] Speaker 2: sanctioned violence, including physical attacks, threats, and inequality, that have
[16:15] Speaker 2: pushed us to this moment, saying the gross acts of
[16:19] Speaker 2: violence are on one side, the kidnapping of protesters, the
[16:22] Speaker 2: bombing of civilians around the globe, and the assaults to
[16:26] Speaker 2: the constitution. We decry all violence and Trump's attempts to
[16:31] Speaker 2: divide us. We are a peaceful people who want freedom.
[16:37] Speaker 2: If Trump uses the Insurrection Act, the ways to constrain
[16:41] Speaker 2: him are largely by public pressure, a reluctance military in
[16:45] Speaker 2: courts after gross violations. Political strategists are not Shinkar Osario
[16:52] Speaker 2: has defined three strategies for public pressure in these times, refusal, resistance,
[16:59] Speaker 2: and ridicule. Number one refusal. Few of us are situated
[17:05] Speaker 2: to encourage the military's refusal to obey on ethical orders.
[17:10] Speaker 2: It's the most top down institution in our society. Still,
[17:15] Speaker 2: while many of the top military and its lawyers may
[17:18] Speaker 2: now be toothless loyalists, officers are positioned to gum up orders.
[17:24] Speaker 2: Some of This is happening already as veterans and others
[17:28] Speaker 2: are talking to folks in the military. More of that
[17:31] Speaker 2: will be needed by those in a position to influence
[17:34] Speaker 2: the military. Another method of refusal comes from our scenario
[17:38] Speaker 2: planning sessions. It's based on the technicality that the National
[17:43] Speaker 2: Guard cannot be activated twice, so governors can activate their
[17:48] Speaker 2: national Guard and then the federal government can't repurpose them.
[17:53] Speaker 2: Among border states, one could conceive of democratic governors in California,
[17:58] Speaker 2: New Mexico, and Arizona, but not Ruby read Texas calling
[18:03] Speaker 2: up the National Guard by mid April before the Insurrection
[18:08] Speaker 2: Act is invoked. Number two resistance. To date, Americans have
[18:14] Speaker 2: engaged in an awful lot of resistance. Our protests have
[18:18] Speaker 2: been far more numerous and frequent than in twenty seventeen,
[18:22] Speaker 2: with over two times more protest in twenty twenty five
[18:26] Speaker 2: than twenty seventeen. Resistance should start with updating know your
[18:31] Speaker 2: rights trainings when interacting with military, reaffirming protest laws and jurisdiction,
[18:38] Speaker 2: and remembering that military officers and rank and file know
[18:42] Speaker 2: little about constitutional rights to protest. Because of that, we
[18:47] Speaker 2: should learn to document, document, document, videotape everything for your protection,
[18:53] Speaker 2: the inevitable court cases, and for stoking public outrage. A
[18:58] Speaker 2: reminder of how extreme this can gat comes from Portland,
[19:02] Speaker 2: where Trump ordered terrible crackdowns on protests by federal troops.
[19:06] Speaker 2: In twenty twenty, Unidentified federal forces scooped up protesters and
[19:11] Speaker 2: threw them into vans. National outrage was dimmed by the
[19:16] Speaker 2: narrative that protests in Portland were violent. This is a
[19:20] Speaker 2: further reminder of how petty violence is the spark the
[19:24] Speaker 2: administration wants, and how we need a simple message we
[19:28] Speaker 2: are not violent Trump is. Governors can now assist by
[19:34] Speaker 2: placing the frame back on the real crisis people are
[19:37] Speaker 2: living through. They can activate their national guards to address
[19:40] Speaker 2: housing and affordability crises, assist with the depleted efforts of
[19:45] Speaker 2: FEMA and CDC from DOJ's cuts. This is both tactical
[19:50] Speaker 2: and reframes the issue. Should those of us concerned about
[19:55] Speaker 2: Trump's actions organize a mass protest right after an insurrection disordered?
[20:01] Speaker 2: My current thinking is no rushing to the streets with
[20:05] Speaker 2: future fears, especially if his order is somewhat targeted, will
[20:09] Speaker 2: likely backfire. The vast majority of Americans see border security
[20:14] Speaker 2: as a legitimate issue, shouting fire isn't the only way
[20:19] Speaker 2: to get people out of the building, and number three ridicule.
[20:24] Speaker 2: Thankfully we have yet another option in the face of
[20:28] Speaker 2: the overwhelming terror. This is something we've seen less of.
[20:32] Speaker 2: There have been ads mocking Musk Tesla now with white
[20:36] Speaker 2: power steering, or Tesla goes from zero to nineteen thirty
[20:41] Speaker 2: nine in three seconds, the swastikar. There's the hack into
[20:46] Speaker 2: government offices with an AI video of Trump kissing Musk's feet,
[20:51] Speaker 2: or the TikTokers hunting Tesla's with anti Musk messages, the
[20:57] Speaker 2: most recalled truck in twenty eight, twenty four. But there's
[21:02] Speaker 2: so much more ridicule that can be done. I'm raising
[21:05] Speaker 2: options here hoping we can open this box more. It's
[21:10] Speaker 2: important because folks are going to tune out if nearly
[21:13] Speaker 2: all of our moves are decried. Decry decry. Humor is
[21:18] Speaker 2: important for our psychees and to take fascists down a notch.
[21:24] Speaker 2: Beautiful Trouble reports on the clandestine insurgent rebel clown army
[21:30] Speaker 2: trained by professional clowns who quote filled their pockets with
[21:34] Speaker 2: so much strange junk that it took hours and lots
[21:38] Speaker 2: of paperwork when stop and searches occurred, a favorite tactic
[21:42] Speaker 2: was to walk into army recruitment agencies and in a
[21:46] Speaker 2: clownish way, try to join up, thus causing so much
[21:49] Speaker 2: chaos that the agencies had to close down for the day,
[21:52] Speaker 2: and then the clowns would set up their shabby recruitment
[21:56] Speaker 2: stall outside. Humor is key for or morale and exposing
[22:01] Speaker 2: the vulnerability of the strongman image. When Russia effectively banned
[22:07] Speaker 2: protest activists in the Siberian city of Barnall organized a
[22:12] Speaker 2: toy protest lego characters and tiny figurines took to the streets.
[22:20] Speaker 2: The humor only grew as the police clumsily arrested all
[22:24] Speaker 2: the figurines, and the word arrested here is in quotations,
[22:28] Speaker 2: so it was all apparently theater. After Melosovich accused the
[22:32] Speaker 2: nonviolent movement atpur of terrorism, they organized terrorist fashion shows
[22:40] Speaker 2: where regular folks stood up in their casual every day
[22:43] Speaker 2: where clearly a terrorist look at his glasses, he must
[22:47] Speaker 2: be a reader. Or After their offices were raided, they
[22:51] Speaker 2: made a very public re entry into their building with
[22:55] Speaker 2: a moving van full of boxes. Media trailed them as expected,
[23:00] Speaker 2: did police stop the van and took the boxes. This
[23:03] Speaker 2: turned to humiliation as police lifted the boxes and found
[23:08] Speaker 2: them all empty, leaving optur the opportunity to say they
[23:13] Speaker 2: are fearful of everything. I'm hoping some ideas may be
[23:19] Speaker 2: brewing for you. What about Tesla test drives with disorderly clowns,
[23:25] Speaker 2: toy protests along the border. What if we appear with
[23:28] Speaker 2: empty boxes after the Insurrection Act is invoked, with insurrection
[23:32] Speaker 2: scrawled on the outside. Or we could go in a
[23:36] Speaker 2: totally different direction and have people applaud the move. A
[23:39] Speaker 2: bunch of us simultaneously come out with press releases saying
[23:44] Speaker 2: we're so glad Donald Trump is finally going after insurrectionists.
[23:48] Speaker 2: We assume he's going to declare his pardons of January
[23:52] Speaker 2: sixth insurrectionist null and void and then remarkably turn himself in.
[23:58] Speaker 2: This brings the frame back to his is lawlessness, and
[24:01] Speaker 2: it brings up one of his most unpopular acts to date,
[24:05] Speaker 2: pardoning January sixth insurrectionists. Folks could amplify this call with
[24:12] Speaker 2: street theater with pictures of Trump and the January sixth
[24:16] Speaker 2: insurrection and signs saying where with Trump get the insurrectionists.
[24:21] Speaker 2: Some could go to the border and hand maps to
[24:24] Speaker 2: military officers with the location of the insurrectionists Washington, DC,
[24:31] Speaker 2: and be utterly confused about why undocumented folks are getting targeted.
[24:37] Speaker 2: The image we want to raise is one that contrasts
[24:40] Speaker 2: law abiding, undocumented folks woven into our community versus the
[24:45] Speaker 2: lawless cabal of mostly white men that Trump lifts up
[24:49] Speaker 2: as heroes. This is the contrast that helps build public outrage. Admittedly,
[24:56] Speaker 2: this won't stop bad things from happening at this stage.
[25:00] Speaker 2: There's no strategy that assures that. But setting ourselves up
[25:03] Speaker 2: with a storyline we keep telling helps us stoke public
[25:07] Speaker 2: outrage so that when awful things happen, we can move
[25:11] Speaker 2: people to action. All of this is bigger than just
[25:16] Speaker 2: decrying Trump's use of the Insurrection Act, which risks just
[25:20] Speaker 2: sounding shrill. We need to pitch the bigger story and
[25:25] Speaker 2: spark actions about more than just the potential risks of
[25:28] Speaker 2: the Insurrection Act. Yes, this is about law and respect
[25:33] Speaker 2: for each other. This is about the fear that Trump
[25:35] Speaker 2: and his lawless brothers in arm are trying to provoke.
[25:39] Speaker 2: By adding a little ridicule into our mix, we can
[25:44] Speaker 2: help shake up and shape that story. Okay, I have
[25:52] Speaker 2: a few thoughts on this article. Let me take a
[25:55] Speaker 2: short break and talk just a little bit more about
[25:57] Speaker 2: that and just a moment. Today, we're talking about the
[26:08] Speaker 2: Insurrection Act of eighteen oh seven, a rarely used law
[26:14] Speaker 2: that would allow the president to use federal military troops
[26:19] Speaker 2: or federalized National Guard troops to suppress our protests or
[26:24] Speaker 2: other civil disturbances conveniently subjectively and vaguely defined. Of course,
[26:33] Speaker 2: given Trump's history, what we're talking about is you and
[26:35] Speaker 2: me going into the streets and protesting publicly and saying no,
[26:39] Speaker 2: we are not a Christian nation and Project twenty twenty
[26:42] Speaker 2: five is bullshit, and due process is not happening with
[26:47] Speaker 2: people kidnapped by ice, and it's an atrocity. LGBT people
[26:52] Speaker 2: are people who deserve safety and equality. DOGE isn't a
[26:57] Speaker 2: legitimate entity and the use of DOGE is a violation
[27:01] Speaker 2: of security, American privacy, and our rights. We are a democracy,
[27:07] Speaker 2: not a monarchy. We are not a nation of kings.
[27:10] Speaker 2: Our founders came here to escape the king. That kind
[27:13] Speaker 2: of protest public demonstration messaging could be called a danger
[27:19] Speaker 2: brought by the enemy from within, and then Trump could
[27:23] Speaker 2: invoke the Insurrection Act to prosecute and punish you and me.
[27:28] Speaker 2: This is classic authoritarianism. Now. I like the idea of
[27:35] Speaker 2: beautiful trouble which was invoked. There was a phrase that
[27:38] Speaker 2: was in the article that I just read for you,
[27:40] Speaker 2: good trouble right, which means we need to go out
[27:45] Speaker 2: and make resistance our duty. What is that line? When
[27:49] Speaker 2: injustice becomes law, resistance is our duty. This article was
[27:55] Speaker 2: released right before the Hands Off twenty twenty five protests,
[27:59] Speaker 2: which took place in one thousand and five hundred cities
[28:03] Speaker 2: all around the United States and across the ocean as
[28:07] Speaker 2: well the whole world seeing protests rising up as people say,
[28:11] Speaker 2: hands off our social security, hands off our civil servants
[28:15] Speaker 2: and their jobs. Hands off our decision to participate or
[28:20] Speaker 2: not participate in a faith tradition, to have or not have,
[28:24] Speaker 2: express or not express a religious belief in a secular democracy.
[28:30] Speaker 2: Hands off our judges, the ones that you have been
[28:34] Speaker 2: threatening when they don't rule in a way that you want.
[28:37] Speaker 2: Hands off the United States Constitution and free citizens who
[28:42] Speaker 2: will fight to be free. And as I talked about
[28:46] Speaker 2: in a video that I published a few days ago
[28:48] Speaker 2: that you can find on the Thinking Atheist channel, I
[28:50] Speaker 2: participated in one of those protests in Tulsa, Oklahoma, wondering
[28:55] Speaker 2: what are going to be like here? Like, well, actually
[29:00] Speaker 2: show up in Jesus Town, Oklahoma, I mean Strawberry Red, Oklahoma.
[29:05] Speaker 2: What's going to happen? And then for those of us
[29:08] Speaker 2: that are out there, are people going to be hurling
[29:10] Speaker 2: bricks at us from their car windows? I mean a
[29:13] Speaker 2: lot of us were weird. I was talking to a
[29:14] Speaker 2: couple of protesters. There's a woman who said that her
[29:18] Speaker 2: husband didn't want her to come out. She's like, he's
[29:20] Speaker 2: worried that I'm going to get hurt. She refused to
[29:23] Speaker 2: stay home. She came out anyway. There was another person
[29:26] Speaker 2: they lived more than a mile away. They didn't even
[29:28] Speaker 2: get in the car. They just walked all the way
[29:30] Speaker 2: down and joined us with their sign. We're holding the
[29:33] Speaker 2: sign for a mile by herself. It was awesome. I
[29:38] Speaker 2: ran into a couple of retired school teachers, well informed,
[29:42] Speaker 2: well motivated, and very concerned about the state of the
[29:46] Speaker 2: United States. And we all bonded right there on the
[29:48] Speaker 2: street corner. And as I said in the video, as
[29:51] Speaker 2: we kind of waved our placards expecting the worst, we
[29:55] Speaker 2: saw overwhelming support in Tulsa, Tulsa, Oklahoma. Okay. A few
[30:05] Speaker 2: people drove by windows down, flipping us off. One guy
[30:09] Speaker 2: had a cell phone case and I couldn't read the
[30:12] Speaker 2: small There was some small print, but there were two
[30:14] Speaker 2: big words top and bottom. Trump Jesus. That's all I
[30:17] Speaker 2: saw was Trump Jesus. So I'm guessing Jesus is my savior,
[30:20] Speaker 2: Trump is my president or something like that. There was
[30:23] Speaker 2: one woman who is the exact person you would expect
[30:28] Speaker 2: to be a Trump voter, you know, about thirty blonde hair.
[30:32] Speaker 2: She looks like every press secretary that Donald Trump has
[30:35] Speaker 2: ever hired, and she's like trub we love Trump, you know,
[30:40] Speaker 2: and then she scoots down as if she's actually done something.
[30:43] Speaker 2: There was one other woman. She was wrapped in a flag.
[30:47] Speaker 2: She actually wrapped herself in a flag with the word
[30:50] Speaker 2: Trump on it, and she had a bullhorn screaming we
[30:53] Speaker 2: love Trump. There was one guy who had the Sons
[30:58] Speaker 2: of Trump tea shirt on and he was going down
[31:02] Speaker 2: and taking selfies with the protesters. I'm guessing he's got
[31:06] Speaker 2: his own channel somewhere, so he was going back to
[31:08] Speaker 2: do commentary. Okay, fine, we saw some of that, but
[31:14] Speaker 2: not very much. Seven eight nine examples of this kind
[31:19] Speaker 2: of thing in three hours. Are you shitting me? We
[31:24] Speaker 2: saw people who were honking their horns, waving their hands,
[31:28] Speaker 2: rolling down the windows, smiling, cheering. One car had people
[31:31] Speaker 2: they were pouring out of the sun roof, half their
[31:33] Speaker 2: bodies up and they were like, yeah, go get them solidarity.
[31:37] Speaker 2: It was wild in this state. People are pissed. Something
[31:42] Speaker 2: is going on. There is actually a shift in the
[31:47] Speaker 2: thinking of a lot of these Red Staters who naively
[31:51] Speaker 2: thought a vote for Trump meant cheaper eggs. Now they're
[31:55] Speaker 2: looking around going, hey, wait a minute, I don't give
[31:58] Speaker 2: a shit about grain, and I don't want to annex Canada.
[32:03] Speaker 2: What the hell is what's going on? I don't want
[32:06] Speaker 2: to pay twice as much for something because everybody got
[32:10] Speaker 2: tariffed except for Putin. You know, Trump's tariffing the penguins
[32:15] Speaker 2: on uninhabited islands. I did not want that. This is
[32:19] Speaker 2: not what I voted for. And they are actually waking up.
[32:22] Speaker 2: I'm not saying I have a whole lot of sympathy
[32:24] Speaker 2: for them, but I am saying that there is a
[32:27] Speaker 2: shift that is taking place. I wanted to talk about
[32:30] Speaker 2: the signs at the protest because this speaks to ridicule.
[32:34] Speaker 2: And we talk about how you got to knock the
[32:36] Speaker 2: Kings down a few runs, they take themselves. So seriously,
[32:39] Speaker 2: what's the best antidote for that? You ridicule the hell
[32:44] Speaker 2: out of them? Ridicule them and so many of the
[32:49] Speaker 2: signs that people handmade and brought out were signs of
[32:53] Speaker 2: mockery and defiance. One guy had a cardboard sign with
[32:58] Speaker 2: a quote from The Big Lebowski and it said this
[33:00] Speaker 2: aggression will not stand man. Cities across the United States
[33:06] Speaker 2: saw people bringing their pets to the protest. There was
[33:09] Speaker 2: one Golden retriever who had a sign on his back
[33:12] Speaker 2: and it said bad doge. Another sign said they're eating
[33:17] Speaker 2: the checks, They're eating the balances. One of my favorites
[33:23] Speaker 2: had a picture of Donald Trump with the caption, imagine
[33:26] Speaker 2: this car filled with bees. I don't know what city
[33:32] Speaker 2: this took place in, but it's gold. A protester showed
[33:36] Speaker 2: up wearing a costume. The costume was a bag of Cheetos,
[33:42] Speaker 2: holding the sign that said when he goes to Hell,
[33:44] Speaker 2: does this mean he is a flaming hot Cheeto style?
[33:49] Speaker 2: Points for that. Another sign it was the fuck around
[33:53] Speaker 2: this stuff times. It was the find outest of times
[33:58] Speaker 2: one colorful plan, ackard said, But it was the Gulf
[34:02] Speaker 2: of Mexico at birth. Here's a gem, complete with emojis
[34:10] Speaker 2: on a handwritten sign. It said, honk if you never
[34:14] Speaker 2: texted secret war plans. And you know, people were honking
[34:18] Speaker 2: their horns driving by all day. It's just awesome. And
[34:22] Speaker 2: there were the emojis, the fist and the upside down
[34:25] Speaker 2: flag and the fire so bad. Even the introverts are
[34:31] Speaker 2: here in Tulsa. I had a listener named Jake come out.
[34:36] Speaker 2: He found me out on the line. His sign was gold.
[34:39] Speaker 2: He said, make idiocracy fiction again. A tall poster had
[34:45] Speaker 2: side by side Donald Trump and Jim Jones of Jonestown,
[34:50] Speaker 2: the cult leader that convinced nine hundred followers to drink
[34:54] Speaker 2: poison and kill themselves for God. The caption said, the
[34:58] Speaker 2: difference between Trump and Jim Jones is that Trump would
[35:01] Speaker 2: charge you for the kool aid. Here's one that said
[35:05] Speaker 2: no your parasites, and it had photographs and everything ticks
[35:11] Speaker 2: worms and billionaires. Here's a gem It says, Maga America,
[35:19] Speaker 2: Come for the measles, stay for the secret kidnapping to
[35:23] Speaker 2: a foreign prison camp. All in all, You're just another
[35:29] Speaker 2: prick with no wall. There was one woman, I'm guessing
[35:34] Speaker 2: an educator. She had a sign that said science keeps
[35:37] Speaker 2: your dumbass alive. There was a woman wearing an American
[35:42] Speaker 2: flag around her neck. She had a sign that said
[35:44] Speaker 2: Wisconsin hates Elon so much it could be one of
[35:49] Speaker 2: his kids. I think that kind of stuff is critical.
[35:53] Speaker 2: It's not just fun. We must ridicule the ridiculous, and
[35:58] Speaker 2: those who say you will take us seriously, we look
[36:02] Speaker 2: them in the face and say we absolutely will not.
[36:08] Speaker 2: And I think the evidence shows, and I'm going to
[36:10] Speaker 2: call it evidence, even though it's a bit subjective and
[36:14] Speaker 2: not all that scientific, but I'm gonna call it evidence
[36:16] Speaker 2: that the maga culture is selling a savior more than
[36:22] Speaker 2: a message. It's like Janine Piro on Fox News, what
[36:26] Speaker 2: did she say when her four to oh one k tanked.
[36:28] Speaker 2: I think she said something like, I trust this man,
[36:31] Speaker 2: trust in Trump. That is what they're selling. When people
[36:35] Speaker 2: came by, they were just shouting a name, Trump, Trump,
[36:38] Speaker 2: We love Trump Trump. It was very much a cult
[36:41] Speaker 2: of personality, tathering themselves to one person. While we in
[36:46] Speaker 2: the resistance, beyond the mockery, we had a message We're
[36:51] Speaker 2: a democracy, not a monarchy. What is happening is not normal.
[36:57] Speaker 2: No King's equality for all. My own sign had a
[37:03] Speaker 2: picture of Donald Trump, as the White House social media
[37:07] Speaker 2: account had posted that image of him wearing a crown
[37:10] Speaker 2: over the caption long Live the King, and I quoted
[37:13] Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson. I was much an enemy to monarchy before
[37:18] Speaker 2: I came to Europe. I am ten thousand times more
[37:22] Speaker 2: so since I have seen what they are messaging. Not
[37:27] Speaker 2: a man, big difference. The next hands off demonstration, I believe,
[37:33] Speaker 2: is coming up on the nineteenth of this month. I'm
[37:36] Speaker 2: going to be at the American Atheist National Convention, so
[37:38] Speaker 2: I won't be able to demonstrate, but I'm curious to
[37:41] Speaker 2: see if we top the five plus million number that
[37:44] Speaker 2: we saw on the fifth of April. It feels like
[37:48] Speaker 2: outrage is rising, and of course, the day after April
[37:53] Speaker 2: nineteenth is the day that it is possible Donald Trump
[37:57] Speaker 2: will implement the Insurrection Act. What is going to happen?
[38:02] Speaker 2: I do not know. I welcome your comments about how
[38:05] Speaker 2: to proceed, how to properly protest, what we can and
[38:09] Speaker 2: should be doing, but I wanted to bring you what
[38:13] Speaker 2: the Insurrection Act is. What the implications might be, and
[38:17] Speaker 2: what's coming here in the last half of the month
[38:21] Speaker 2: of April. I'll finish with the thought that I had
[38:25] Speaker 2: in a discussion with a friend who was saying, you know,
[38:28] Speaker 2: protest really isn't my thing. You know, it's not for me.
[38:33] Speaker 2: And I was thinking about what he said, and I said,
[38:34] Speaker 2: you know, the First Amendment of the United States Constitution
[38:38] Speaker 2: specifically protects peaceful protest as a form of expression. The
[38:43] Speaker 2: language references freedom of speech, the press, the right of
[38:47] Speaker 2: the people peacefully to assemble and to petition the government
[38:51] Speaker 2: for a redress of grievances. Women were not allowed to
[38:57] Speaker 2: vote before nineteen twenty, only after the Women's Suffrage protests
[39:03] Speaker 2: that they were given that right, or actually they took
[39:06] Speaker 2: that right for themselves. Black Americans were only given protections
[39:11] Speaker 2: after the civil rights protests of the nineteen sixties. Unjust
[39:16] Speaker 2: wars like Vietnam were protested, even by Vietnam veterans, and
[39:22] Speaker 2: they considered their public protest a duty, a patriotic duty.
[39:28] Speaker 2: What are the protections that we still have for LGBT
[39:32] Speaker 2: people if not the result of strong, fierce protests. Protest
[39:38] Speaker 2: is a critical, necessary form of expression that communicates to
[39:42] Speaker 2: those in power the opinions of the people. It also
[39:46] Speaker 2: sends a message to those in public office, and it
[39:50] Speaker 2: serves as a physical representation of how free speech operates
[39:55] Speaker 2: outside of a police state. I'm reminded of that graphic
[39:59] Speaker 2: that sh the plank that leads out over the cliff,
[40:02] Speaker 2: and there's one powerful person on the end of the plank,
[40:05] Speaker 2: and there's like fifty people over here on the other
[40:08] Speaker 2: And all we have to do is decide we're not
[40:10] Speaker 2: going to hold up the authoritarian anymore. Resistance movements have
[40:17] Speaker 2: been necessary throughout our history, and we must resist this
[40:21] Speaker 2: idea that you and I are the insurrectionists, when truthfully
[40:25] Speaker 2: we are the ones who are trying to defend a
[40:28] Speaker 2: secular government, democracy, and decency. We watch the headlines and
[40:33] Speaker 2: we press on. Thank you so much for listening.
[40:37] Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a
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