# Israel, Palestine, Liberty, and the Left (with Jasmin Faulk)

An episode of [TheThinkingAtheist](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/412308695), 30 Sep 2025, 54 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/mgln.ai/e/711/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/67853434/podcast829_jasminefaulk.mp3

Jasmin Faulk is an ex-Muslim human rights activist with an insider's perspective on Islam, the war on women, and the often awkward perspectives of the West. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/thethinkingatheist--3270347/support.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: We understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's
[0:08] Speaker 1: a symbol, an idea.
[0:10] Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through.
[0:13] Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If
[0:18] Speaker 1: I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth,
[0:22] Speaker 1: not because.
[0:22] Speaker 3: I put my hand on a book and made a.
[0:24] Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.
[0:29] Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.
[0:32] Speaker 4: Truth, Fusian wisdom will come to you that way.
[0:35] Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
[0:43] Speaker 1: Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
[0:56] Speaker 4: Jasmine Folk is a human rights activist. I'm not trying
[1:01] Speaker 4: to like oversell it you are. You're a human rights
[1:04] Speaker 4: activist focusing mostly on what women's.
[1:08] Speaker 3: Rights, primarily as specifically women's rights in the.
[1:11] Speaker 2: Middle East, because you were a product.
[1:14] Speaker 3: Of the Middle Eastern upbringing under Islamic rule in the
[1:19] Speaker 3: nineteen seventies, eighties, and nineties, as a woman growing up
[1:22] Speaker 3: in Saudi Arabia under the most fundamental and extremist form
[1:25] Speaker 3: of Islam.
[1:26] Speaker 2: So are you're multi lingual, then I am.
[1:28] Speaker 3: I'm trilingual. To be precise, excuse me, I liked I'd
[1:35] Speaker 3: like to say multi lingual, because I do speak three
[1:36] Speaker 3: languages fluently, Italian, which is my mother's native tongue, Arabic,
[1:40] Speaker 3: my father's English obviously, as you can hear me right now.
[1:43] Speaker 3: And I'd like to say I can manage in Spanish,
[1:46] Speaker 3: but my Spanish always turns into Italian.
[1:48] Speaker 4: But you spent twenty five years in Saudi Arabia, I did.
[1:52] Speaker 4: So what's that look like you in the veil?
[1:56] Speaker 3: Pretty much? Yeah, you can imagine from the age of
[1:59] Speaker 3: ten eleven twelve. I'd say between ten and eleven was
[2:03] Speaker 3: when I was officially veiled, because that's when I hit.
[2:06] Speaker 2: Puberty become a woman, think.
[2:08] Speaker 3: Came a woman officially, correct, And so at that point,
[2:13] Speaker 3: you know, you cover up, you're out in society, and
[2:15] Speaker 3: you are treated like an adult woman. Not that adult
[2:17] Speaker 3: women are treated well under those circumstances, but essentially, even
[2:21] Speaker 3: as a child, you are expected to uphold the same
[2:23] Speaker 3: exact expectations and rules and regulations and behaviors and conduct
[2:28] Speaker 3: that an adult woman would, which is essentially covering from
[2:31] Speaker 3: head to toe. And this was during the time when
[2:33] Speaker 3: women were literally covered like face cover, the abayah or
[2:37] Speaker 3: the black cape on the shoulders or the head, covering
[2:41] Speaker 3: any sign of your physical body, your shape, sometimes even
[2:46] Speaker 3: your skin. Some women even wore gloves where you couldn't
[2:48] Speaker 3: even see the complexion. And then when you're out in public,
[2:51] Speaker 3: your silence, your voice needs to be hush, hush.
[2:53] Speaker 4: So you the job is covering the hair, and is
[2:57] Speaker 4: it the nikab that covers the face that which one
[3:00] Speaker 4: makes you look like a bee keeper?
[3:01] Speaker 3: Good question? Okay, all right, thank you. I love talking
[3:03] Speaker 3: about this. So the hy job is essentially what a
[3:05] Speaker 3: woman wears around her hair so you can only see
[3:09] Speaker 3: her face. That's a hit job. And the hey job
[3:11] Speaker 3: is essentially a devotional Islamic garb. So a woman that
[3:16] Speaker 3: wears a hyjob, she has devoted herself to the religion
[3:19] Speaker 3: and to the faith, and she will always wear the
[3:21] Speaker 3: hey job, whether in public in private. If it's just
[3:24] Speaker 3: her male guardians like her husband's sons, brothers, or father,
[3:27] Speaker 3: she doesn't need to wear it. But around any other man, cousins, friends, relatives, whatever,
[3:32] Speaker 3: she wears the heyjob and around non Muslim women, so
[3:35] Speaker 3: that's a choice. It's almost like a nun that's her
[3:37] Speaker 3: garb with the nikab and the burka. You probably hear
[3:41] Speaker 3: the borga as well, which is the boga. Okay, So
[3:44] Speaker 3: the burgha is essentially the Bedouin kind of traditional clothing.
[3:48] Speaker 3: It's the face cover but leaves the eyes open, but
[3:51] Speaker 3: it leaves the eyes open fairly wide, and there's a
[3:54] Speaker 3: line almost like a thread that comes down on the nose,
[3:57] Speaker 3: on the bridge of the nose between the eyes, and
[3:59] Speaker 3: some there's embroidery or beads. So it's a traditional face cover.
[4:04] Speaker 3: And that's the boga. That's a Bedouin traditional face cover.
[4:07] Speaker 3: The nikob, which we also hear about, is not what
[4:10] Speaker 3: you see Afghani women wearing. I don't know why that's
[4:13] Speaker 3: been called nikob, but the nikob traditionally in the Middle
[4:16] Speaker 3: East where it was born, because it's an Arabic word,
[4:19] Speaker 3: is more maybe not the bee keeper, that's what they
[4:22] Speaker 3: call nikov That is a very Afghany thing. Air women
[4:26] Speaker 3: don't wear that, So that is an Afghany thing. That
[4:28] Speaker 3: is a totally different thing, different language, different people's everything.
[4:32] Speaker 3: But the nicob officially where I was growing up and
[4:35] Speaker 3: where it was very much in use, and I've also
[4:37] Speaker 3: had to wear it is essentially it's a very very
[4:40] Speaker 3: thin slit in front of the eyes and it's just
[4:42] Speaker 3: like this tiny little opening in front of the eyes
[4:44] Speaker 3: and the rest is all covered. So it's similar to
[4:46] Speaker 3: the original Bedouin Burga, but it's thinner. The opening is
[4:49] Speaker 3: much tighter and you can barely like see through.
[4:53] Speaker 2: What I was interested in.
[4:54] Speaker 4: When I spoke to another ex Muslim female, she was like,
[4:57] Speaker 4: it actually has the opposite effects supposed to do. Is
[5:00] Speaker 4: it's supposed to de sexualize you, right, it dehumanizes really,
[5:05] Speaker 4: But she's like, it actually produced the opposite, sort of
[5:08] Speaker 4: a forbidden fruit effect, right, because the more you were covered,
[5:12] Speaker 4: the more you were actually sexualized us.
[5:15] Speaker 3: And especially if your eyes only were visually available, it
[5:19] Speaker 3: could do a lot of things with the eyes.
[5:21] Speaker 4: I saw some of those slits in the head covering
[5:24] Speaker 4: where they were wearing eye makeup.
[5:26] Speaker 3: That a thing technically they're not supposed to. So if
[5:29] Speaker 3: a religious police, a member of the religious police, see that,
[5:32] Speaker 3: they will completely harass you and they'll tell you to
[5:34] Speaker 3: cover completely, like just throw the whole veil on your face,
[5:37] Speaker 3: which has happened many times. I've experienced that. But usually
[5:41] Speaker 3: when girls are doing that, one of two things are happening.
[5:43] Speaker 3: Either it's because they just happen to be made up
[5:45] Speaker 3: underneath and they're you know, that's just maybe they're not
[5:48] Speaker 3: that concerned about having their eyes made up, or they're
[5:50] Speaker 3: intentionally doing that because they want some sense of femininity
[5:55] Speaker 3: and maybe attract attention in some way power, but also
[5:57] Speaker 3: just a little bit of attention. Because that's that was
[5:59] Speaker 3: a co between young girls and young boys. Is just
[6:02] Speaker 3: kind of this is what I have to offer you,
[6:04] Speaker 3: and you know, it was an interesting exchange.
[6:06] Speaker 2: I think it was true.
[6:07] Speaker 4: And Iran, tell me if this was the case in
[6:09] Speaker 4: Saudi Arabia that in a court of law you had
[6:12] Speaker 4: to have two females witnesses for everyone male.
[6:16] Speaker 2: Is that close?
[6:17] Speaker 3: Thank you for asking that question, because I tend to
[6:20] Speaker 3: bring up the conversation around the fact that in the
[6:23] Speaker 3: Islamic law, the woman is half the value of the man,
[6:27] Speaker 3: and anytime Muslims hear me say this, they get very
[6:30] Speaker 3: offended and they say, I did not understand the interpretation
[6:33] Speaker 3: of the Koran or of the scripture. Fair enough, perhaps
[6:36] Speaker 3: I didn't. I will tell you what that law means,
[6:38] Speaker 3: and then you tell me if you think that that
[6:40] Speaker 3: is translated into the woman is half the value of
[6:42] Speaker 3: a man. So in an inheritance, the woman gets half
[6:46] Speaker 3: of what her male relatives get. So if a father dies,
[6:50] Speaker 3: the sisters get half of what the brothers get. The
[6:52] Speaker 3: mother gets half of what her son gets. So that
[6:55] Speaker 3: is one way. The other way is if there is
[6:58] Speaker 3: a crime that is committed, you do need, as you mentioned,
[7:01] Speaker 3: two female witnesses to one. If you have one female witness,
[7:04] Speaker 3: it's not enough. If you have a male witness, that's enough.
[7:06] Speaker 2: In public, did you always have to have a male escort?
[7:10] Speaker 3: Ideally yes, so if the religious police was around you,
[7:12] Speaker 3: they would definitely give you a hard time about the
[7:14] Speaker 3: fact that you are in public without a male guardian,
[7:16] Speaker 3: and that is a problem. The government at the time
[7:20] Speaker 3: did not necessarily enforce it through this kind of a
[7:22] Speaker 3: generic rule because they expected women would have to go
[7:25] Speaker 3: shopping sometimes alone. The man is not always available to
[7:28] Speaker 3: the women, and so there were times when but it
[7:31] Speaker 3: depended on why the women were out in public. If
[7:33] Speaker 3: you were shopping, you were doing something reasonable, well, sure
[7:36] Speaker 3: of course we'll justify it. But to just be out
[7:39] Speaker 3: to have fun, of course not.
[7:40] Speaker 4: I have to come back to this term I've heard
[7:42] Speaker 4: you use at least twice religious police. Yes, let's not
[7:46] Speaker 4: even look like so.
[7:48] Speaker 3: The religious police were a very prominent, visually visible entity
[7:53] Speaker 3: in Saudi Arabia in the nineteen primarily eighties and nineties.
[7:57] Speaker 3: They're known as the Mattawa. If anybody's hearing this, and
[7:59] Speaker 3: they've spent any time in Saudi Arabia, including foreigners, everybody
[8:03] Speaker 3: knows who the Mabawa were at the moment from what
[8:05] Speaker 3: I hear based on the changes that are happening in
[8:08] Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia and the kind of the progressive movement that's
[8:10] Speaker 3: happened since twenty eighteen, Supposedly they are no longer in power.
[8:15] Speaker 3: I think the establishment still exists, but they don't hold
[8:18] Speaker 3: power anymore because the current defacto king and the Crown
[8:20] Speaker 3: Prince has taken that power away from them. But at
[8:23] Speaker 3: the time, basically they were law enforcement. So you would
[8:27] Speaker 3: visually see police officers on the sides of a potentially
[8:32] Speaker 3: one or two men in the middle who are dressed
[8:35] Speaker 3: in traditional clothes. If anyone remembers what Osama bin laden
[8:39] Speaker 3: look like, that's what they look like. The long beard,
[8:41] Speaker 3: the headdress, the thob, which is the long male dress
[8:46] Speaker 3: usually short at the ankle because that's a symbol of
[8:49] Speaker 3: devout religious humility, and then the big cape, and they
[8:53] Speaker 3: would walk around with a cane and if they saw
[8:55] Speaker 3: women who were not behaving according to their standard, they
[8:59] Speaker 3: could beat the woman. They could grab the women, throw
[9:02] Speaker 3: them in a suburban GMC truck and take them to
[9:06] Speaker 3: a prison.
[9:07] Speaker 4: I love these stories out of Iran with the Iran Revolution,
[9:10] Speaker 4: these extremely brave women who are like they're ripping the
[9:13] Speaker 4: head coverings off of the clerics and running down the street,
[9:16] Speaker 4: and they are burning their own coverings, and you know
[9:20] Speaker 4: they're standing in the street saying we are people, and
[9:22] Speaker 4: many of those folks are paying with their very lives.
[9:26] Speaker 4: Anything like that going on in Saudi Arabia, Well, at
[9:28] Speaker 4: the moment, there's no need for that, because a lot
[9:31] Speaker 4: of changes have happened.
[9:32] Speaker 3: I have not been back to Saudi Arabia since nineteen
[9:34] Speaker 3: ninety nine, but I hear obviously through the grapevine and
[9:36] Speaker 3: obviously everything we see in here in social media and
[9:39] Speaker 3: the news. So at the moment, I don't think those
[9:41] Speaker 3: are practices that are necessarily needing to take place. But
[9:46] Speaker 3: when I was growing up, certainly women have tried that
[9:48] Speaker 3: and gotten in a lot of trouble.
[9:49] Speaker 4: So right now it seems like Saudi Arabia is kind
[9:51] Speaker 4: of running for office. I mean, how do I say this?
[9:55] Speaker 4: I feel like there's a massive pr campaign to westernize it,
[10:01] Speaker 4: to make our doors open, and we're like, wow, you know,
[10:05] Speaker 4: they become much more progressive.
[10:06] Speaker 2: Look now women can drive.
[10:10] Speaker 4: As if you know, we're supposed to say welcome to
[10:13] Speaker 4: you know that welcome to this century.
[10:15] Speaker 3: Right. It's like when they say, look at that dad,
[10:17] Speaker 3: he's so good. He's babysitting as kids. So you don't babysit.
[10:20] Speaker 3: Your kids are your kids, that's your job. You should
[10:22] Speaker 3: have done that all along. You're doing good things for women. Great.
[10:25] Speaker 3: Do we need to just applaud it as all of
[10:27] Speaker 3: a sudden it's the greatest thing. Sure, I mean, we
[10:29] Speaker 3: can celebrate it. My concern is we can celebrate it,
[10:33] Speaker 3: but we can't forget and deny what has happened in
[10:35] Speaker 3: the past. So we don't just gloss over, you know,
[10:38] Speaker 3: the three four or five decades of oppression that women
[10:42] Speaker 3: experienced and not address it, because perpetually this will repeat
[10:46] Speaker 3: itself if we don't address it and recognize that it
[10:50] Speaker 3: was a problem.
[10:50] Speaker 4: More concern, we're in bed with Saudi Arabia, they're in
[10:53] Speaker 4: bed with us What the hell's that about?
[10:55] Speaker 2: Is it all? Is it just money?
[10:57] Speaker 3: Sure? I mean it started in the nineteen fifties when
[10:59] Speaker 3: oil was discuss a great convenience relationship, which you know,
[11:03] Speaker 3: I try not to be a political analyst in the
[11:07] Speaker 3: sense that I want to necessarily analyze, because every government
[11:11] Speaker 3: on this planet is or at some point has been corrupt.
[11:14] Speaker 3: So I can appreciate that that has become the global
[11:18] Speaker 3: style of communication. That's all fine. What I find a
[11:21] Speaker 3: problem with is when we allow our interests to completely
[11:25] Speaker 3: bypass human rights. And this is what's happening between the
[11:27] Speaker 3: West and countries like Saudi Arabia.
[11:30] Speaker 4: We just look the other way. Holy, you're going to
[11:32] Speaker 4: execute journalists. You're going to be head people in the
[11:34] Speaker 4: streets without due processes. If I was a proponent of
[11:37] Speaker 4: beheading anyway. The documentary Dissident just put a chill through
[11:41] Speaker 4: my spine at the power. Obviously they're extremely well funded,
[11:46] Speaker 4: their influences major and now they're like high fiving all
[11:50] Speaker 4: of these Western powers.
[11:52] Speaker 3: It's terrifying, it is, and what terrified So I expect
[11:55] Speaker 3: that from you know, governments for the most part, to
[11:58] Speaker 3: behave that way. What concerns me more is the people
[12:01] Speaker 3: is the lack of understanding and information that people within
[12:06] Speaker 3: their societies have. For example, in the United States, we
[12:10] Speaker 3: hear a lot of call to action and activism for
[12:13] Speaker 3: what's happening in Palestine right now. Fantastic, that's great. What
[12:17] Speaker 3: I have concerns with is that the call to action
[12:20] Speaker 3: is completely out of place. So, yes, they're calling for
[12:25] Speaker 3: the horrors that are happening to the children and the
[12:28] Speaker 3: people who are being murdered, killed and starved and genocided
[12:31] Speaker 3: and all of that, But at the same time, there's
[12:34] Speaker 3: this equation of queer rights to the Palestinian rights. I
[12:37] Speaker 3: do not see the correlation. Not only is it completely
[12:40] Speaker 3: counter to what that culture believes, which is a very
[12:43] Speaker 3: homophobic and transphobic and LGBT phobic and all of that,
[12:46] Speaker 3: so it already has a stabilized approach anti these you know, ideologies.
[12:54] Speaker 3: And at the same time, I've never heard anyone say,
[12:57] Speaker 3: hang on a minute, what about the women that are
[12:59] Speaker 3: there that for century have been living under oppression. They
[13:02] Speaker 3: have forgotten what the purpose is, and so they walk
[13:05] Speaker 3: around wearing the Arab the male Arab garb in protest
[13:09] Speaker 3: or in solidarity, who walks around wearing the Westerners Americans.
[13:12] Speaker 4: Okay, So people who are here and perhaps for the
[13:15] Speaker 4: noblest of reasons, are making a blanket pro Palestine demonstration. Yes,
[13:19] Speaker 4: they're dressing in a covering, which is a male covering.
[13:22] Speaker 3: Correct, the kafia what they wear, which in Palestine it's
[13:26] Speaker 3: called kafia where I come from, it's a schamach or's
[13:29] Speaker 3: other names based on the color and the material. But
[13:31] Speaker 3: what they're wearing is the Palestinian one, and it is
[13:34] Speaker 3: a symbol of Yes, I understand, it's a symbol of Palestine.
[13:38] Speaker 3: And by the way, I want everyone to be pro
[13:41] Speaker 3: Palestine and calling out what's happening there. It's the lack
[13:44] Speaker 3: of awareness of how much they've bypassed and they've gotten
[13:48] Speaker 3: just to the cherry on top, which is what's happening
[13:50] Speaker 3: right now. They have bypassed all the years and decades
[13:53] Speaker 3: of oppression and suffering that has happened in the region,
[13:58] Speaker 3: not only in Palestine at the hand of the Jewish government,
[14:02] Speaker 3: but in the Middle East as a whole under the
[14:04] Speaker 3: fundamentalism of Islam. And so at no point do I
[14:07] Speaker 3: see that solidarity actually calling for or questioning or opposing
[14:13] Speaker 3: or boycotting these relationships between the governments because of human
[14:18] Speaker 3: rights or because of women's rights.
[14:22] Speaker 4: So much left to talk about, including the mess overseas
[14:26] Speaker 4: with Israel Palestine NET and Yahoo, Zionism, Hamas, and the
[14:31] Speaker 4: protest many student led protests pro Palestine protests that are
[14:37] Speaker 4: happening in the West for better and for worse. Wait
[14:41] Speaker 4: a minute, some of the protests are actually not helping.
[14:44] Speaker 4: We're going to talk to Jasmine fak and get her
[14:46] Speaker 4: perspective next. Thank you so much for listening and engaging.
[14:56] Speaker 4: Conversation continues with Jasmine fock At. It's Muslim and author
[15:01] Speaker 4: of the book The Last Sandstorm. So you open the
[15:07] Speaker 4: can of worms with Israel Palestine, So let's open it further. Sure,
[15:11] Speaker 4: So we look at a lot of religious people and
[15:14] Speaker 4: this was my background, Like my mother and father had
[15:17] Speaker 4: a pro Israel bumper sticker, Like they believe that Israel
[15:21] Speaker 4: is Zion, This is the end times. The Israeli state
[15:24] Speaker 4: must be protected at all costs. It's part of you know,
[15:27] Speaker 4: it's part of God's master plan before he returns and
[15:30] Speaker 4: all of that stuff happens heaven, et cetera. And so
[15:34] Speaker 4: what happened was they shut down any criticisms of what
[15:39] Speaker 4: Israel might have done culturally, politically, et cetera. Because Israel
[15:43] Speaker 4: must be supported, period. It just became a single sentence.
[15:46] Speaker 4: It was a bumper sticker. Today we'd call it a meme.
[15:49] Speaker 4: And I think what a lot of people, even on
[15:51] Speaker 4: the left, that I have seen, are missing, is that
[15:55] Speaker 4: nat and Yahoo may be guilty of genocide, but a
[15:59] Speaker 4: ton of Israel can't stand and disagree with Netan Yahoo.
[16:04] Speaker 3: Absolutely. That is another example where we are not differentiating
[16:08] Speaker 3: between the people and the government. So you can criticize
[16:12] Speaker 3: the Israeli government all day long. I'm thrilled to hear that,
[16:15] Speaker 3: and it's in Yahoo and the people, but there are
[16:18] Speaker 3: so many Jewish people who don't deserve what's happening to them,
[16:22] Speaker 3: and there are so many Jewish people who are speaking
[16:25] Speaker 3: up against their own government on behalf of the Palestinians. Now,
[16:29] Speaker 3: where I get frustrated with the left and the Western
[16:32] Speaker 3: approach and all of that is that not only are
[16:35] Speaker 3: they standing pro Palestine, they are definitely becoming so anti
[16:40] Speaker 3: Jewish that they are forgetting to differentiate between the people
[16:43] Speaker 3: and the government, all while they are defending Hamas. That
[16:47] Speaker 3: is a very horrifically fundamentally terrorist organization that perpetuates fundamentalist,
[16:55] Speaker 3: extremist Islam on the women of the region. So there's
[16:58] Speaker 3: nothing redeeming about Hamas. They are ter and they are
[17:00] Speaker 3: fundamentalist extremists. And I do not understand how the correlation
[17:04] Speaker 3: of standing by Palestine equates also defending radicals and then
[17:09] Speaker 3: perpetuating that hate against the innocent Jews.
[17:11] Speaker 4: Right, Jasman, help me understand this. Aren't the Palestinian people
[17:15] Speaker 4: under the boot of Hamas that were pressed by Hamas?
[17:18] Speaker 4: I mean the idea is by many that well, hey,
[17:21] Speaker 4: they could have revolted against Hamas. They must want an
[17:25] Speaker 4: Islamic state, they must want to overtake they must hate
[17:28] Speaker 4: Israelis all of them. Right, we're speaking in binaries again.
[17:31] Speaker 3: Of course.
[17:31] Speaker 4: So I mean, from your perspective, how do you deal
[17:34] Speaker 4: with the mess that is Goza, Palestine, etc.
[17:37] Speaker 3: So let's just disclose right away that not all Palestinians
[17:40] Speaker 3: are Muslim, and we tend to forget that there are
[17:42] Speaker 3: many Palestinians who are Christian, some also Jewish. So Hamas
[17:46] Speaker 3: is an Islamic organization. It's a political Islamic radical terrorist organization.
[17:52] Speaker 3: And yes, they do have a choke hold on the Palestinians.
[17:55] Speaker 3: But the Palestinians don't necessarily all subscribe to that ideology.
[18:00] Speaker 3: If there are some who support Hamas, it's probably because
[18:04] Speaker 3: they are the underdog and they have hope that someone
[18:07] Speaker 3: will come and rescue them.
[18:08] Speaker 2: I e.
[18:08] Speaker 3: Hamas could take over survival, absolutely, but it's really hard
[18:12] Speaker 3: to hold a very oppressed, essentially tortured people accountable for
[18:19] Speaker 3: what they have nothing of, and that is control.
[18:23] Speaker 4: So if someone said, hell, they could have overthrown this
[18:26] Speaker 4: they may want, you know, Islamic rule or Islamic extremism,
[18:30] Speaker 4: you would be much more charitable than say, these are
[18:32] Speaker 4: people who who may not have many choices.
[18:35] Speaker 3: They have no choices in fact, and not only that,
[18:38] Speaker 3: I can even appreciate that argument if those same people, who,
[18:42] Speaker 3: by the way, are usually also supporting if they are
[18:46] Speaker 3: supporting Palsin, they're also supporting Hamas because they don't differentiate
[18:50] Speaker 3: between the two. So essentially, if we're looking at the
[18:53] Speaker 3: people themselves, they are I mean the greatest victims in
[18:57] Speaker 3: this argument, it would the same argument then could be
[18:59] Speaker 3: said to the Jews of the Holocaust, I mean they
[19:02] Speaker 3: could have done something about it. You never look at
[19:05] Speaker 3: a victim and say, well, they could have revolted. They
[19:07] Speaker 3: could have said no, they could have overpowered all those
[19:10] Speaker 3: Nazi soldiers and taken over the concentration camps and broken free.
[19:16] Speaker 4: There's an odd perspective I've got because I'm an atheist
[19:20] Speaker 4: and I'm not a Zionist obviously, but I think Israel
[19:24] Speaker 4: has a right to exist and protect itself as a
[19:26] Speaker 4: sovereign state. I think the Jewish people should be able
[19:29] Speaker 4: to have a sovereign state.
[19:31] Speaker 2: And at the same time, I'm not a Zionist.
[19:34] Speaker 4: I don't think it's part of the end times, nor
[19:36] Speaker 4: do I think it has to be protected at all costs,
[19:37] Speaker 4: no matter what they do.
[19:39] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[19:39] Speaker 4: I'm throwing that out there, like Israel has a right
[19:43] Speaker 4: to be Israel.
[19:44] Speaker 2: I don't know. Am I wrong?
[19:45] Speaker 3: No, You're not wrong. I think that also many Arabs
[19:48] Speaker 3: would agree with that. At this point in time, where
[19:51] Speaker 3: we live and where we exist and how things are going,
[19:53] Speaker 3: there has to be an agreement that both of those
[19:55] Speaker 3: two things can exist mutually, respectfully and safely. I think
[20:00] Speaker 3: many Palestinians would be okay with living under those circumstances
[20:03] Speaker 3: and conditions, and I think many Jews would feel the
[20:06] Speaker 3: same way. I think the two state solution is a
[20:08] Speaker 3: very valid approach, but it has to be a two
[20:10] Speaker 3: state solution. It can't be one overpowering.
[20:13] Speaker 4: The other, colonizing, grabbing land, making sure it's disproportionate. We
[20:17] Speaker 4: have more than you, which is kind of the thing, right, Absolutely,
[20:20] Speaker 4: It's been that way for thousands of years.
[20:22] Speaker 3: For thousands of years, the back and forth, and even
[20:24] Speaker 3: though both can claim having the right to that land,
[20:27] Speaker 3: it is fair to say due to history, religion, anything
[20:32] Speaker 3: you want to throw in the mix, I think this
[20:33] Speaker 3: is an area that should be negotiable. And you know
[20:36] Speaker 3: it is like, historically there has been validity for both
[20:39] Speaker 3: and it's never going to be any different unless they
[20:42] Speaker 3: reach a consensus that they will agree. Okay, well, we'll
[20:45] Speaker 3: figure it out once and for all.
[20:46] Speaker 4: But how do you get around the Holy land aspect
[20:48] Speaker 4: of this. God gave us this land, it is our birthright.
[20:52] Speaker 4: Seems to be the calling card for many of the actions,
[20:55] Speaker 4: and I'm like, well, a lot of this is religiously motivated.
[20:59] Speaker 4: We see christian and Jews. I've seen a lot of
[21:02] Speaker 4: Evangelicals here in the United States, and they're like, it
[21:05] Speaker 4: all belongs to God, right, And then you do have
[21:08] Speaker 4: some people who they hate Israel and they think Israel
[21:12] Speaker 4: needs to be destroyed because they're the Infidel.
[21:14] Speaker 2: Is that accurate?
[21:15] Speaker 3: Oh, that's very accurate. That is a very powerful message.
[21:18] Speaker 3: I heard it my whole life growing up.
[21:19] Speaker 2: And absolutely we taught to hate Jews, Oh.
[21:23] Speaker 3: Absolutely, Oh yeah, oh very much so. I mean there
[21:25] Speaker 3: is a visceral hate between the two, and yet they
[21:27] Speaker 3: are essentially at the same time cousins and Semites and
[21:30] Speaker 3: supposed to live and co exist together. The stories in
[21:34] Speaker 3: the Islamic teachings have claimed to have Muslims and Jews
[21:39] Speaker 3: live side by side, and yet you know, this continues
[21:41] Speaker 3: and it's perpetuated today. What I will say to that, though,
[21:44] Speaker 3: is the fact that there is this part historically we're
[21:49] Speaker 3: in that area, and this is simplifying it very very much,
[21:52] Speaker 3: so reckon, But all religions have had some level of
[21:56] Speaker 3: presence in that little spot of the earth if we
[22:01] Speaker 3: like to believe in these, you know, stories, and some
[22:04] Speaker 3: may be slightly historically accurate, others or maybe fairy tales,
[22:07] Speaker 3: however we want to look at them. But there is
[22:09] Speaker 3: this claim that every religion has had a settlement in
[22:13] Speaker 3: that particular region, and so great make it a place
[22:17] Speaker 3: for all. You know, it does not have to be
[22:19] Speaker 3: like the Vatican only for Catholics or the Kaiba only
[22:21] Speaker 3: for Muslims. If it's true that all religions have cycled
[22:25] Speaker 3: through there, what a great way to create an ambassadorial
[22:29] Speaker 3: peace of the world where everyone can finally come together.
[22:32] Speaker 4: But if you hate the other, if you've dehumanized the other,
[22:36] Speaker 4: who cares what happens to them? So exactly how do
[22:39] Speaker 4: you fix that? Do you go after the ideology and
[22:42] Speaker 4: try to appeal to their humanity? I mean, how many
[22:44] Speaker 4: thousands of years does this conflict have to go on?
[22:47] Speaker 4: I guess what I'm asking, Jasmine is how do we
[22:49] Speaker 4: fix the world?
[22:51] Speaker 3: And that's why you and I are going to resolve today.
[22:52] Speaker 2: Let's make out we just put us in charge.
[22:55] Speaker 3: Right. It's unfortunate though, that the people who are in
[22:59] Speaker 3: charge have only one interest, and that's why these things
[23:03] Speaker 3: will never be solved, because they make us believe that
[23:06] Speaker 3: that's what it's about. But it really is about more
[23:08] Speaker 3: than that. Forgive the interruption.
[23:09] Speaker 2: I'm so sorry.
[23:10] Speaker 4: Please do you feel like that I know the answer,
[23:13] Speaker 4: you know the answer. I just want to hear you articulator,
[23:15] Speaker 4: because you're so good. People do what they want and
[23:19] Speaker 4: they say it's God's idea. You got to figure net
[23:22] Speaker 4: and Yaho is just doing what he wants to do,
[23:24] Speaker 4: and he's like, well, that's not my thing that I
[23:27] Speaker 4: was ordained by the almighty.
[23:28] Speaker 3: Right absolutely, And then George Bush say that at one
[23:30] Speaker 3: point George w that he had to pray for it
[23:33] Speaker 3: to know what the answer was. That's a really amazing
[23:37] Speaker 3: and convenient way out. And I think we are pre
[23:40] Speaker 3: programmed to accept that. And if we don't accept and
[23:44] Speaker 3: by the way, we're seeing this happen not only in
[23:46] Speaker 3: religious spaces, but even in sort of social ideological spaces.
[23:50] Speaker 3: It's extremely convenient to have a cop out when you're
[23:54] Speaker 3: not taking full responsibility, but you really have to put
[23:57] Speaker 3: it in the hands of something greater than you. And
[24:00] Speaker 3: so then everyone has to sort of succumbent accept that
[24:02] Speaker 3: this is sort of the rationale of anything.
[24:04] Speaker 4: So tell me, you just summarize your beef with how
[24:07] Speaker 4: Westerners have been doing pro Palestine protests. I don't know
[24:12] Speaker 4: what are you saying that causes you a moment of pause.
[24:16] Speaker 3: So when October seventh happened, it was horrible, It was awful.
[24:20] Speaker 3: It was terrible under every point of view. What came
[24:23] Speaker 3: after that, the aftermath of Israel's response was I'd like
[24:27] Speaker 3: to say, initially equally horrible and then just went the
[24:30] Speaker 3: next level horrible. And I can see how that angered
[24:34] Speaker 3: the global community. I mean, the entire world is not
[24:38] Speaker 3: standing by Israel now today after standing by them when
[24:42] Speaker 3: this all happened. Fantastic. We're all on the same page
[24:45] Speaker 3: for the most part. I know a lot of people
[24:46] Speaker 3: are not, but I'm just saying from my perspective, many
[24:49] Speaker 3: are standing on this page. When I look at how
[24:51] Speaker 3: the West reacted to post October seventh, my first initial
[24:58] Speaker 3: wish was that those who really wanted to commit to
[25:02] Speaker 3: finding their voice in this movement and expressing their voice,
[25:05] Speaker 3: first and foremost is educating themselves on what that whole
[25:08] Speaker 3: conflict is about. And I'm specifically talking to young people.
[25:12] Speaker 3: It is amazing to see the excitements, the enthusiasm, the
[25:15] Speaker 3: exuberance in youth when they want to call out on
[25:18] Speaker 3: fairness and injustice. But at the same time, it is
[25:23] Speaker 3: not only fruitless, it's actually damaging if you come to
[25:25] Speaker 3: it without any knowledge or any background or any education.
[25:28] Speaker 3: So first and foremost, educate yourself to really understand what
[25:31] Speaker 3: the historic context of this conflict on October seventh is
[25:35] Speaker 3: related to. It's related to something far longer than that. Okay, great,
[25:38] Speaker 3: so if we start there, that's awesome. If we don't
[25:40] Speaker 3: start there, and or if we do start there, but
[25:42] Speaker 3: then we perpetuate a message that is completely unproductive, ie
[25:48] Speaker 3: the protests. Now, I've been an activist, I consider myself
[25:51] Speaker 3: an advocate now because I think activism is like a
[25:54] Speaker 3: fire that burns really really hot, really really fast, and
[25:56] Speaker 3: then when it's gone, poof, you got nothing left. But
[25:59] Speaker 3: advocacy is the coals and the fire that stays warm
[26:04] Speaker 3: underneath that then actually gets things done, i e. Keeping warmth,
[26:07] Speaker 3: cooking whatever. Those two have to go hand in hand.
[26:10] Speaker 3: But the activists, unfortunately right now, they be heav in
[26:12] Speaker 3: a way that they don't want anyone else to be
[26:13] Speaker 3: involved in the conversation. They just want to burn and
[26:16] Speaker 3: that's it. But then what do you have to show
[26:18] Speaker 3: for it? For example, all the protests non voters during
[26:22] Speaker 3: the election, I'm not voting because of the Palestinian issue. Okay,
[26:26] Speaker 3: you do realize that that non vote is actually a
[26:30] Speaker 3: really damaging outcome and a completely dangerous, potential circumstantial outcome.
[26:36] Speaker 2: It became a de facto vote.
[26:37] Speaker 3: Right exactly, and we're living the consequences of that. G Thanks.
[26:41] Speaker 3: Do we think that Kamalai Harris would have done great
[26:43] Speaker 3: on this issue. Probably not, but definitely on many other
[26:46] Speaker 3: issues better than what we're dealing with right now.
[26:48] Speaker 2: There is a lesser evil, exactly.
[26:51] Speaker 3: So that's one of the examples. The other example is
[26:53] Speaker 3: shutting down roads, going on college campuses, all of those things.
[26:57] Speaker 3: It's like, for a minute there, I'm like, yeah, I'm
[26:59] Speaker 3: on board with showing protests, show solidarity, take the signs,
[27:02] Speaker 3: go down in the streets, to do all that. But
[27:03] Speaker 3: if you're doing it in a way that then harms
[27:06] Speaker 3: other people, you have no leg to stand on. Because
[27:10] Speaker 3: when you're blocking highways and people can't get to work,
[27:13] Speaker 3: many of those people getting to work are probably immigrants,
[27:16] Speaker 3: maybe some of them even Palestinian immigrants, you know. Some
[27:19] Speaker 3: of them are probably undocumented people that should not be
[27:22] Speaker 3: you know, dangerously in a location where they could be
[27:24] Speaker 3: found and caught. And we can talk about that, you know,
[27:26] Speaker 3: in a different vein. But all I'm saying is that
[27:28] Speaker 3: you are putting a lot of people in danger who
[27:30] Speaker 3: are potentially at risk, and you don't care because you
[27:34] Speaker 3: have a message and you want to deliver that message.
[27:36] Speaker 3: And again you're perpetuating a chant that is completely empty
[27:43] Speaker 3: because you're getting no results from that. It is performative.
[27:48] Speaker 3: It lacks any interest or desire to actually understand the region,
[27:51] Speaker 3: to understand the people, to understand the culture, to differentiate
[27:54] Speaker 3: between culture and religion. There's so many pieces to this
[27:59] Speaker 3: lovely salad if you will fruit salad that you know
[28:04] Speaker 3: they're just picking the fruits that they like and they
[28:06] Speaker 3: don't want to deal with the other things that they
[28:08] Speaker 3: don't care about.
[28:08] Speaker 4: You would agree, though, that there have been many times
[28:10] Speaker 4: where we need to be disruptors. Oh a hundred, disrupt
[28:15] Speaker 4: the system, one hundred, wrench in the work. Some would
[28:17] Speaker 4: argue that the end of the I don't know, raising
[28:20] Speaker 4: the shit storm at the college campuses and all that
[28:22] Speaker 4: stuff would qualify as good trouble.
[28:25] Speaker 3: No so, yes and no. So. The yes part is
[28:29] Speaker 3: if you're going to protest and you're going to do that,
[28:31] Speaker 3: that's awesome. I don't have a problem with that. What
[28:33] Speaker 3: I do have a problem with is when those protests
[28:36] Speaker 3: then are harming the people who are there to get
[28:39] Speaker 3: an education. For example, other students who are maybe not protesters,
[28:42] Speaker 3: and maybe it's not their calling, that's not what they do.
[28:46] Speaker 3: Maybe they even agree with the protesters, but they just
[28:48] Speaker 3: want to go to school, get to class, do what
[28:50] Speaker 3: they need to do. They were harassed, they were stopped,
[28:52] Speaker 3: they were attacked, they were accused for being, you know,
[28:55] Speaker 3: genocidal because they're silent, they're not participating. That is not okay.
[29:00] Speaker 3: That to me, you lose your mission At this point,
[29:03] Speaker 3: I'm reminded of I'm trying to think of his name.
[29:06] Speaker 4: It's been so many years, but it's along those same lines.
[29:09] Speaker 4: Everybody was the hero in their own story. A college
[29:12] Speaker 4: campus had a debate and there was like a human
[29:15] Speaker 4: rights advocate and a person who was considered very much
[29:18] Speaker 4: not and they were going to be on the debate
[29:20] Speaker 4: stage and engage each other, and the students shouted them
[29:27] Speaker 4: down and made it impossible for anybody to finish his sentence,
[29:31] Speaker 4: and before you know it, there were concerns for the
[29:33] Speaker 4: speaker's safety and they had to be escorted off the campus.
[29:37] Speaker 2: Blah blah blah.
[29:38] Speaker 4: So in theory, I think what they were thinking was
[29:42] Speaker 4: hate speech will not be allowed here. We are going
[29:44] Speaker 4: to take a stand for love by shouting down the
[29:48] Speaker 4: hate and not allowing this person to have a platform.
[29:52] Speaker 4: And it's one of those things. If you see it
[29:53] Speaker 4: on a bumper sticker, it sounds rather noble. I myself
[29:56] Speaker 4: would like to have seen the exchange, absolutely to a
[30:00] Speaker 4: exchanging even the best or worst of ideas in a
[30:03] Speaker 4: form where those can be assessed by everybody else. Everybody
[30:06] Speaker 4: was there under agreed terms, and yet there were people
[30:09] Speaker 4: acting really in destructive and counterproductive ways who felt like
[30:14] Speaker 4: they were the heroes in that story.
[30:15] Speaker 3: And that is what I'm most worried about at the moment.
[30:18] Speaker 3: What's happening on the left is this, Well, I know
[30:22] Speaker 3: people don't like hearing things like.
[30:23] Speaker 4: That, Damn centrist, you've sold out your liberal value.
[30:27] Speaker 3: Absolutely, I am now considered a conservative or a leaning
[30:30] Speaker 3: right in all of these accusations, and I keep saying, actually,
[30:34] Speaker 3: liberals haven't moved. Liberals are exactly where they've always been,
[30:37] Speaker 3: which is standing firm on the space of everyone has
[30:41] Speaker 3: the right and is entitled to live and let live
[30:44] Speaker 3: as long as you're not crossing obviously legal terms and harm.
[30:49] Speaker 3: If you're not doing any one of those things, I
[30:51] Speaker 3: don't care. You can all exist. I literally don't care.
[30:53] Speaker 3: But what's happened on the left is they've moved so
[30:56] Speaker 3: far that they have then, you know, left us anchored
[31:00] Speaker 3: liberals in a space where it's like, oh wait, this
[31:02] Speaker 3: is no longer on the left. This is truly somewhere
[31:05] Speaker 3: in the middle, I guess, or maybe in space. I
[31:07] Speaker 3: don't know, because I truly don't think we are anywhere
[31:10] Speaker 3: on the spectrum for real. But that left has leaned
[31:13] Speaker 3: so hard in the direction that to me, it's like
[31:15] Speaker 3: a swing when it goes over the bar. You have
[31:18] Speaker 3: literally now gone to the other side. Where we used
[31:20] Speaker 3: to accuse the right of being the ones who censor
[31:23] Speaker 3: who's silence. You can't say this, you can't say that.
[31:25] Speaker 3: That's happening on the left in my opinion now even
[31:27] Speaker 3: more than the right.
[31:27] Speaker 4: Now, what happens I mean to anybody, any tribe can
[31:30] Speaker 4: be dogmatic. We've talked to I think gave a speech
[31:32] Speaker 4: I guess a couple of years ago where we talked
[31:34] Speaker 4: about how a lot of times many of the overt
[31:38] Speaker 4: things people say and do in an in group are
[31:41] Speaker 4: signaling to the in group that they're still worthy of membership.
[31:44] Speaker 4: Right I sure don't want to get kicked out. I
[31:46] Speaker 4: don't want to be accused of blasphemy and then become
[31:49] Speaker 4: othered and then they're going to commit themselves to destroy me.
[31:52] Speaker 2: So here, look how worthy I am.
[31:54] Speaker 3: And they probably don't even care or even believe that,
[31:57] Speaker 3: but they say it because God forbid, you get can
[32:00] Speaker 3: sold or you get kicked out of your tribe.
[32:02] Speaker 4: Oh you're giving covered to the right wingers by saying that,
[32:04] Speaker 4: and I'm making a nuanced position.
[32:08] Speaker 3: Well see that's but see that's the problem. That is
[32:10] Speaker 3: the absolute problem is that right now we are so terrified,
[32:14] Speaker 3: and in my opinion, it's the collapse has already happened
[32:16] Speaker 3: from within if the left does not wake up and
[32:20] Speaker 3: actually find a way to unify with all their differences,
[32:23] Speaker 3: because the left is a far greater umbrella than the right.
[32:26] Speaker 3: The right is pretty one minded. It's got one mission
[32:29] Speaker 3: for the most part, one mind, one trajectory, you know, nationalism,
[32:33] Speaker 3: whatever you want to call it. They're headed in that
[32:34] Speaker 3: same direction altogether. Many conservatives unfortunately don't fall in that
[32:39] Speaker 3: line and have found themselves somewhat politically homeless. But the
[32:43] Speaker 3: left has always prided itself of being a large umbrella
[32:46] Speaker 3: that welcomes so many different perspectives and ways of life.
[32:50] Speaker 3: That is an amazing thing. But they're now playing the
[32:53] Speaker 3: hierarchy game there because some are more important than others,
[32:56] Speaker 3: some voices are more valued than others. And if you
[32:58] Speaker 3: happen to have this voice and this voice somehow contradicts
[33:02] Speaker 3: my voice, then we are going to class and I'm
[33:04] Speaker 3: going to get angry at you. I'm going to cancel you.
[33:06] Speaker 4: Okay, people are wondering what specifically are we referring to.
[33:11] Speaker 4: I'll throw this out. We'll give some red meat for
[33:13] Speaker 4: the conversation. Okay, So on the left, because we want
[33:17] Speaker 4: to make sure that we are not being bigoted or
[33:21] Speaker 4: discriminatory against people of color. A lot of people have
[33:26] Speaker 4: decided Muslims are a race. Islam is a race and
[33:29] Speaker 4: not an idea, not a truth claim, not a religion.
[33:32] Speaker 4: Muslims are I guess brown people.
[33:34] Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, it's that's the thinking, right.
[33:37] Speaker 4: So if you criticize Islam, then you are guilty of islamophobia.
[33:42] Speaker 4: If you insult the profit, etc. If you think the
[33:45] Speaker 4: hit job should not be on the cover of Cosmo,
[33:48] Speaker 4: you know, oh, you're so islamophobic then you get targeted
[33:52] Speaker 4: by people who, even again for the noblest of reasons,
[33:56] Speaker 4: who want to be there to support women who are
[33:58] Speaker 4: being oppressed. Essentially, they're giving couverty Islam. I mean I
[34:03] Speaker 4: think they are. I don't know, what do you think?
[34:06] Speaker 3: One hundred percent?
[34:08] Speaker 2: Okay?
[34:08] Speaker 3: Absolutely, I am allergic to the term Islamophobia.
[34:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's a bullshit term.
[34:13] Speaker 3: It's a bullshit term, and it is so harmful and damaging.
[34:16] Speaker 3: And you want to hear what's even more aggravating than
[34:20] Speaker 3: that that me, as an ex Muslim woman who lived
[34:24] Speaker 3: under that oppressive ideology for twenty five years. When I
[34:28] Speaker 3: say this, the left, the Westerners, the non Arabs, the
[34:31] Speaker 3: non Muslims have the nerve to tell me I'm Islamophobic
[34:34] Speaker 3: when I'm calling out the problems on the Islamic fundamentalists.
[34:38] Speaker 2: So you get it from two sides.
[34:39] Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you've got over here you have angered the profit,
[34:42] Speaker 4: you infidel, And over here they're like, you're an islamophobe,
[34:46] Speaker 4: you infidel.
[34:46] Speaker 3: Absolutely, And that's what really really gets me. It's like,
[34:49] Speaker 3: first of all, you don't know the first thing about
[34:52] Speaker 3: what you're even defending. I am not necessarily saying go
[34:55] Speaker 3: and hate on Muslims. Absolutely not, That's not what I'm saying.
[34:58] Speaker 3: I don't think you should hate on any human being,
[35:01] Speaker 3: regardless of what their ideology, belief system, or religious affiliation is.
[35:06] Speaker 3: That is, in my opinion, my true classic liberalism. Live
[35:09] Speaker 3: and let live. If the religion serves you, fantastic. If
[35:12] Speaker 3: the religion is going to infringe upon other people, that
[35:15] Speaker 3: is a problem. That is what you can question. But
[35:18] Speaker 3: Islam specifically, for some reason, and I'm not sure why
[35:22] Speaker 3: the West has bought into this, it stands and completely
[35:28] Speaker 3: is glorified above anything else and any other religion. It
[35:31] Speaker 3: is the only ideology that is not criticized. Religiously speaking.
[35:35] Speaker 3: There's other ideologies we don't criticize, but religiously speaking, Islam
[35:39] Speaker 3: is the only one that no one will touch and
[35:42] Speaker 3: there's a fear around it. So yeah, the propaganda of
[35:45] Speaker 3: Islamic fundamentalism is powerful because they managed to scare the
[35:49] Speaker 3: entire world from criticizing it, and they've the West, so
[35:54] Speaker 3: to speak, the left in the West have turned it
[35:56] Speaker 3: into either a race, ethnic or national origin ideology as
[36:00] Speaker 3: opposed to it is just a religion, like Christianity, like Judaism,
[36:04] Speaker 3: like any other religion that's worthy of criticism.
[36:06] Speaker 4: Sometimes I feel like if I just use the right words,
[36:08] Speaker 4: the problem is is the words require more than one's sentence.
[36:13] Speaker 4: No one should ever be told that they cannot wear
[36:15] Speaker 4: the veil right. The whole point is a woman should
[36:17] Speaker 4: have the right to wear what she wants. At the
[36:20] Speaker 4: same time, let's not celebrate the veil as long as
[36:23] Speaker 4: it is being used as a weapon to dehumanize and oppress.
[36:27] Speaker 4: Those two things can exist in the same space. I'm
[36:30] Speaker 4: not going to tell a woman what to wear, but
[36:32] Speaker 4: let's not put them on the cover of Cosmo and
[36:35] Speaker 4: make it all glam and sexy and look how progressive
[36:39] Speaker 4: we are, because that then gives cover to the people
[36:42] Speaker 4: who are dehumanizing people with the hijab.
[36:45] Speaker 3: When that action takes place, I know that they say, well,
[36:49] Speaker 3: we are letting other people see themselves. Nothing is more
[36:52] Speaker 3: powerful than representation. So Muslim women feel represented and they
[36:57] Speaker 3: feel seen. Well, what about all the women who are
[36:59] Speaker 3: victims of that ideology and that belief system. Has anyone
[37:02] Speaker 3: thought about them? Has anyone thought about how this impacts
[37:05] Speaker 3: the women who are under that repressive, oppressive ideology and
[37:09] Speaker 3: way of life. You can't have it both ways.
[37:13] Speaker 4: Final segments, Let's get into Islam. You know, the definition
[37:17] Speaker 4: of Islam is peace question mark. We're going to talk
[37:23] Speaker 4: to Jasmine Falk about the definition of the word Islam,
[37:27] Speaker 4: Muslim women who are risking their lives at this very moment,
[37:31] Speaker 4: and we're going to chat about the Jesus of Islam.
[37:34] Speaker 2: Next.
[37:39] Speaker 4: Here was the final segment of my conversation with Italian
[37:43] Speaker 4: Arab American ex Muslim author and activist Jasmine fuck Let
[37:50] Speaker 4: me ask you this question. Is there a difference in
[37:52] Speaker 4: your mind between Muslim and Islamist.
[37:56] Speaker 3: Oh? Wow, that's a good question. So Muslim is the
[37:59] Speaker 3: person as we know Islam is the religion. An Islamist
[38:03] Speaker 3: in my opinion, and this is a fairly new term.
[38:06] Speaker 3: This is not a term that is equated when you
[38:09] Speaker 3: are talking exclusively about the faith. So normally Islam is
[38:12] Speaker 3: the religion. A person who follows Islam is a Muslim,
[38:15] Speaker 3: and Islamist is someone who upholds the religion and its
[38:19] Speaker 3: ideological system somewhat in extremism. That's my interpretation when I
[38:26] Speaker 3: think of Islamist, that's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing of
[38:28] Speaker 3: someone that is putting the religion in a fundamentalist ideological
[38:34] Speaker 3: process first and foremost as opposed to a Muslim, which,
[38:37] Speaker 3: by the way, the word Muslim in Arabic comes from.
[38:40] Speaker 3: So the word Islam the religion means surrender. A Muslim
[38:43] Speaker 3: is someone who has surrendered. You have surrendered to God,
[38:47] Speaker 3: that you have devout and you've surrendered. But an Islamist
[38:51] Speaker 3: is someone that it's taking it to the next level.
[38:53] Speaker 4: Don't the clerics deny that, don't They say that Islam
[38:55] Speaker 4: is defined as something else. I don't know, they deny
[38:59] Speaker 4: that it means surrender to all. Uh, it's supposed to
[39:02] Speaker 4: be a term of empowermental.
[39:04] Speaker 3: Okay, fair. So the word surrender exactly an error because
[39:09] Speaker 3: it is the Slam that means surrender is the Slam.
[39:13] Speaker 3: Islam is probably a combination. And again, if people want
[39:19] Speaker 3: to correct me, that's fine. It's probably a combination of
[39:22] Speaker 3: both surrender and peace. So Salem is peace is the
[39:26] Speaker 3: Slum is surrender, and Islam, I believe, is probably a
[39:31] Speaker 3: combination of those two words.
[39:32] Speaker 4: We're still talking about surrender, which seems to be the
[39:35] Speaker 4: calling card for most fundamentalist cultures. You are surrendering your
[39:40] Speaker 4: identity for the identity of the group or the God.
[39:43] Speaker 2: I mean, would that be accurate?
[39:44] Speaker 3: That is accurate. And that's why it surprises me that
[39:46] Speaker 3: people are arguing that that statement, because if that is
[39:49] Speaker 3: your belief system, there's nothing more beautiful than the affirming
[39:53] Speaker 3: that you have surrendered to God.
[39:54] Speaker 4: Isn't it true though, that most Muslims just want to live.
[39:58] Speaker 4: They're peace. Love's the West in my Like, I'm in Oklahoma.
[40:02] Speaker 4: So if I go and I say, oh, we had
[40:05] Speaker 4: a Muslim family move in next door, I kid you not,
[40:08] Speaker 4: their first thought is probably going to be wow. I
[40:09] Speaker 4: hope they don't shut up with it with a dynamite
[40:12] Speaker 4: vest on, right. I mean they think Muslim nine to eleven,
[40:16] Speaker 4: you know, they think Muslim they're going to blow themselves
[40:19] Speaker 4: up and get the virgins and all that. It's this
[40:21] Speaker 4: extremely terrifyingly reductive look. But the vast majority of Muslims
[40:25] Speaker 4: are like I think most Christians. They practice a cultural faith.
[40:29] Speaker 4: They may pray five times a day, who knows, but
[40:32] Speaker 4: they don't want to harm anybody. I'm not giving. I'm
[40:35] Speaker 4: not excusing the religion.
[40:37] Speaker 2: I don't know. Jasmine, back me up here, tell me
[40:39] Speaker 2: what do you think?
[40:40] Speaker 3: Completely agree with you? The majority of Muslims are kind people.
[40:43] Speaker 3: Most of them are not extremists. The majority are not extremists.
[40:47] Speaker 3: So let me break it down this way. So and
[40:51] Speaker 3: this is again where the confusion comes. So Islam is
[40:54] Speaker 3: the religion, the faith within Islam. You have the Arabs,
[40:58] Speaker 3: you have the Southeast Asians, which are the fastest growing
[41:01] Speaker 3: Muslim populations in the world, which is why Islam is
[41:03] Speaker 3: so widespread because a lot of Southeast Asians are now Muslim.
[41:06] Speaker 3: And then you have you know, Islam's spread North Africa,
[41:09] Speaker 3: which of course are also Arab countries, and then you
[41:11] Speaker 3: have it spread sort of in Eastern Europe and now
[41:14] Speaker 3: also beyond. So when you look at it that way,
[41:17] Speaker 3: you can imagine that while they all share the religion,
[41:22] Speaker 3: they all have their own natural, cultural, traditional national practices,
[41:28] Speaker 3: so their religion is interpreted or lived in a very
[41:32] Speaker 3: different way from someone in the Middle East, story in
[41:34] Speaker 3: Southeast Asia, or you know, everyone is going to have
[41:37] Speaker 3: an approach to their religion based on their cultural influences
[41:40] Speaker 3: and their historic context. That is really important to differentiate
[41:44] Speaker 3: because for some it is not only their way of life,
[41:47] Speaker 3: it's also their language. So for Arabs, Islam is also
[41:50] Speaker 3: their language, but for Southeast Asians, it's not their language.
[41:53] Speaker 3: For Eastern Europeans, it's not their language. Now they can
[41:55] Speaker 3: learn Arabic. So the nuances of how you are affected
[42:01] Speaker 3: or impacted by religion is also tied to your cultural
[42:05] Speaker 3: and traditional practices. When I say all this, I say
[42:09] Speaker 3: it to reference the fact that the extremist and fundamentalist
[42:14] Speaker 3: ideologies of Islam are in pockets, in very small pockets
[42:18] Speaker 3: in the world that are not widespread in every Muslim
[42:21] Speaker 3: community and maybe even every Muslim country, but in small
[42:25] Speaker 3: pockets they have taken so much power. They have monopolized
[42:28] Speaker 3: the religion everywhere in the world, and they have absolutely
[42:32] Speaker 3: fearmongered anyone that has any association with Islam. So to conclude,
[42:37] Speaker 3: I will say this, Muslims who are anywhere in the
[42:40] Speaker 3: world are just people, like you said, wanting to live
[42:43] Speaker 3: their lives, to live calmly, to live peacefully. When I
[42:46] Speaker 3: say we have to critique fundamentalism and radicalism and extremism,
[42:50] Speaker 3: I'm talking about the ideologies and the implementation and permission
[42:54] Speaker 3: to implement those ideologies, whether it's in cultures, in governments,
[42:59] Speaker 3: or in societies.
[43:00] Speaker 4: The women in Iran part of the Iran Revolution, right women,
[43:04] Speaker 4: life freedom. They're putting their lives on the line for
[43:08] Speaker 4: equality and autonomy. And they're largely Muslims, right, Yeah, so.
[43:14] Speaker 3: They are, and many of them probably want to hold
[43:17] Speaker 3: on to that Muslim identity. From a cultural perspective, many
[43:20] Speaker 3: of them probably want nothing to do with the religion.
[43:22] Speaker 3: Many of them probably want to hold on to some
[43:26] Speaker 3: level of religion and spirituality and faith, but on their
[43:29] Speaker 3: own terms and maybe in a more progressive secular way.
[43:31] Speaker 3: I know those things don't sound like they'd go together,
[43:34] Speaker 3: secular and religion, but it can work, especially in Islam.
[43:37] Speaker 3: I mean, it hasn't been practiced very frequently.
[43:39] Speaker 4: Yeah, you're someone who probably uses the Muslim culture is
[43:45] Speaker 4: more of an esthetic exactly. It's the framework for the
[43:49] Speaker 4: human existence, but you don't necessarily hold it the dog.
[43:52] Speaker 2: Would that be a fair way to say totally?
[43:54] Speaker 3: And maybe you're following some rituals, for example, the month
[43:57] Speaker 3: of Ramadan. Maybe you'll fast the month of Ramadan because
[43:59] Speaker 3: that is both a kind of a tradition for most Muslims.
[44:02] Speaker 3: You'll fast the whole month, you'll do all the rituals
[44:04] Speaker 3: during that time, but maybe all year you're not going
[44:06] Speaker 3: to pray five times a day, for example. So you're
[44:08] Speaker 3: still ritualistically doing some Islamic practices, but you're not necessarily
[44:12] Speaker 3: doing every single expectation. So those Muslims do exist, They
[44:17] Speaker 3: absolutely exist. And those women in Irana are absolutely risking
[44:20] Speaker 3: their lives and I stand by them, and they do
[44:22] Speaker 3: want to just be members of the global society in
[44:25] Speaker 3: a way that does not put them either in that
[44:28] Speaker 3: oppressed and completely erased way, but also at the same
[44:33] Speaker 3: time without being a threat to the rest of the
[44:34] Speaker 3: world and being seen as you know, Islamic terrorists or
[44:39] Speaker 3: part of the problem.
[44:40] Speaker 4: There's a way to advocate for them without advocating for
[44:44] Speaker 4: those who oppress them. And that's when it gets messy,
[44:48] Speaker 4: you know. You talk about we talked about the aesthetic
[44:50] Speaker 4: of the religion. It's like the Jewish faith. The vast
[44:53] Speaker 4: majority I think of Jews are mostly secular, many or
[44:56] Speaker 4: non believers outright. But they like the clothing, they like
[44:59] Speaker 4: the music, they like the traditions and the customs and
[45:02] Speaker 4: the food, and for them it sort of colors the
[45:04] Speaker 4: human existence.
[45:05] Speaker 2: I'm down with that, ah.
[45:07] Speaker 3: But here's where the difference is. And this is where
[45:10] Speaker 3: the Jews are lucky. Because the Jews are both. It's
[45:13] Speaker 3: both their religion and their ethnic identity. It's also who
[45:16] Speaker 3: they are as a people. Islam is not an ethnic identity.
[45:20] Speaker 3: Anyone can be Muslim, but you have to be Jewish
[45:23] Speaker 3: to be a Jew.
[45:24] Speaker 4: Now, I can't decide I'm going to follow Judaism and
[45:27] Speaker 4: be Jewish based on.
[45:30] Speaker 3: My understanding, and I'm not going to speak on behalf
[45:32] Speaker 3: of the Jewish. Here's my understanding because I've asked some
[45:35] Speaker 3: Jewish friends. If you are Jewish by ethnicity, you are Jewish,
[45:41] Speaker 3: and usually it's you are born of a Jewish mother.
[45:43] Speaker 3: If you're born of a Jewish father, you're a technically
[45:46] Speaker 3: not as Jewish as I will probably be corrected if
[45:49] Speaker 3: I'm wrong. This is information I heard from actual Jewish
[45:53] Speaker 3: friends who have explained it to me. This way, you
[45:55] Speaker 3: can convert and become Jewish, especially if you marry into,
[45:58] Speaker 3: you know, a Jewish family. You can make that choice.
[46:01] Speaker 3: I believe Ivanka Trump did that, so I've heard. But
[46:06] Speaker 3: I think there are rituals you have to practice and
[46:08] Speaker 3: you have to sort of It's not as easy as any.
[46:11] Speaker 2: Other religion to assimilar.
[46:13] Speaker 3: You have to similar, and then you have to be
[46:14] Speaker 3: accepted and you have to acknowledge that you are Jewish,
[46:17] Speaker 3: probably by faith now and not by identity and ethnicity. Muslims,
[46:22] Speaker 3: on the other hand, all you have to do is say,
[46:24] Speaker 3: Ahammad and you're a Muslim, and that is I declare
[46:29] Speaker 3: that there's only one God and that God is a
[46:31] Speaker 3: lot and Rahammad is his messenger. All you need to
[46:34] Speaker 3: say is that, and you are a Muslim. Then after that,
[46:36] Speaker 3: of course you have to do all the practice and
[46:37] Speaker 3: the rituals, because if you don't, then now you are
[46:40] Speaker 3: not only not doing the faith based rituals, now you're
[46:45] Speaker 3: a really bad Muslim because you've become a Muslim and
[46:47] Speaker 3: you're not doing it.
[46:48] Speaker 4: Which brings me to the point of how much of
[46:50] Speaker 4: that as just being a parrot. Most of the times
[46:53] Speaker 4: I've heard in Islamic apologist, they seem to be just
[46:57] Speaker 4: throwing recitations at me, not understand standing. Do they teach
[47:02] Speaker 4: in Islam just to vomit out the text without meaning?
[47:08] Speaker 3: So it depends where you're asking this question. In some areas,
[47:12] Speaker 3: they teach Islam and they really want to understand it,
[47:14] Speaker 3: and they turn it into an actual academic, scholarly process.
[47:19] Speaker 3: Great countries like Egypt have done that. Countries like Syria,
[47:23] Speaker 3: and you know, I don't know if it's still the
[47:25] Speaker 3: norm and the practice. But in history we know that
[47:28] Speaker 3: they have been scholars and have been really good at
[47:30] Speaker 3: kind of understanding the historic context and the interpretive contexts.
[47:34] Speaker 3: But in other areas where it's a lot more fundamental Iran, Afghanistan,
[47:37] Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia, until recently or maybe until now, I'm not sure,
[47:41] Speaker 3: they teach you verbatim the religion and you just have
[47:44] Speaker 3: to take it as is now. One thing that I
[47:49] Speaker 3: tend to share is when I went to school, I
[47:51] Speaker 3: went to a private school. I went to school where
[47:53] Speaker 3: their royal family went to the school with me. So
[47:55] Speaker 3: it was a private school. We had again girls and
[47:57] Speaker 3: boys segregated. But out of all the subjects that we learned,
[48:00] Speaker 3: which included math and biology and physics and literature, Arabic
[48:04] Speaker 3: literature and grammar and all that, there were nine subjects
[48:07] Speaker 3: that were all tied to Islam. Nine subjects that were
[48:10] Speaker 3: only exclusively tied to Islam. Qoran, the reading of the Koran,
[48:13] Speaker 3: the memorization of the Koran, the learning of the pronunciation
[48:16] Speaker 3: of the Koran, the interpretation of the Koran. Then you
[48:19] Speaker 3: have the hadith, which are the prophet sayings. Then you
[48:21] Speaker 3: have fika, which is basically the rituals. Then you have faith,
[48:25] Speaker 3: and then you have what am I forgetting a couple
[48:28] Speaker 3: of more?
[48:29] Speaker 2: Oh you got seven? That's impressive, right.
[48:31] Speaker 3: And so those are the subjects that we're taught in school.
[48:36] Speaker 3: So there's not a lot of room to say I
[48:39] Speaker 3: didn't get enough information, Can I know more about this?
[48:42] Speaker 3: Or can I ask a question here? Because they are
[48:43] Speaker 3: feeding you all that information and according to the style
[48:47] Speaker 3: of teaching, we're giving you everything you need to know.
[48:49] Speaker 3: There's no questions to be asked. The answers are all there.
[48:52] Speaker 3: If you happen to ask a question, like my question
[48:55] Speaker 3: in school was, teacher, excuse me, if you're saying that
[48:58] Speaker 3: music is hat on it's a which is what fundamentals
[49:01] Speaker 3: Muslims believe, then why would God, who creates everything perfectly,
[49:05] Speaker 3: create Beethoven? Why did he create Beethoven with the genius
[49:08] Speaker 3: that he had musically? Why would he create him like
[49:10] Speaker 3: that to make him suffer? And my teacher's answer was,
[49:14] Speaker 3: those are the things we don't ask because only God
[49:16] Speaker 3: knows those answers. And the phrasing era because elmerib which
[49:19] Speaker 3: means it's in the knowing is in the unknown. In
[49:24] Speaker 3: other words, only God knows.
[49:25] Speaker 4: The mystery is part of the journey, and it's a
[49:27] Speaker 4: trust exercise.
[49:29] Speaker 3: Totally in allah surrender.
[49:31] Speaker 4: Or you know, Christians do that with God right. His
[49:34] Speaker 4: ways are not my ways. Who knows the mind of
[49:36] Speaker 4: God exactly.
[49:38] Speaker 3: And one thing I always like to share is the
[49:39] Speaker 3: fact that there are not many differences between Islam and
[49:43] Speaker 3: Christianity in terms of the stories that are told. And
[49:48] Speaker 3: you know the history of the different prophets and the tribes,
[49:54] Speaker 3: all of those, those are the same stories in the Koran.
[49:56] Speaker 3: The most fundamental difference between the two religions is the
[49:59] Speaker 3: fact that Muslims believe that there's only one God and
[50:02] Speaker 3: Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God.
[50:04] Speaker 2: Isn't Jesus part of Islam? He is.
[50:06] Speaker 3: He's a very revered and beloved prophet, not the son
[50:09] Speaker 3: of God of God, absolutely not. And his mother, the
[50:12] Speaker 3: Virgin Mary, is the most revered woman in Islam and
[50:16] Speaker 3: probably the only woman that's mentioned in the Koran.
[50:19] Speaker 4: You don't think of Mary and Islam media.
[50:22] Speaker 2: That's a whole other conversation, Joe.
[50:23] Speaker 3: There's a whole sura in the Qoran titled medium. It's
[50:26] Speaker 3: the only you know, place where a woman is acknowledged.
[50:30] Speaker 4: Makes you wonder if Mary showed up and walked the
[50:33] Speaker 4: streets of Saudi Arabia, if they would force her to
[50:35] Speaker 4: wear their bail you know.
[50:36] Speaker 2: Oh cover up, Mary, damn it.
[50:38] Speaker 4: Actly, you're going to need someone else to join you
[50:41] Speaker 4: in court. By the way, let's end up with a
[50:45] Speaker 4: message to forget. I don't know how has to say
[50:47] Speaker 4: it other than the West, but you know we're recording
[50:50] Speaker 4: this in Canada.
[50:52] Speaker 2: I'm from the United States.
[50:54] Speaker 4: We're not great at speaking about issues regarding to Islamism,
[50:58] Speaker 4: Islamist extremism, Muslim the Muslim faith, because it's really, in
[51:01] Speaker 4: many ways not our wheelhouse. We don't see it on
[51:03] Speaker 4: every corner, and tragically we're not really all that. We're
[51:08] Speaker 4: not as interested as we should be considering the influence
[51:12] Speaker 4: Islam and Islamist have in the world. What's your message
[51:16] Speaker 4: to anybody within your shot who lives on this side
[51:20] Speaker 4: of the planet.
[51:21] Speaker 3: So the first thing I'll say to that is Islam
[51:23] Speaker 3: is not a monolithic system at all. So this idea
[51:26] Speaker 3: that we have to approach Islam as a thing is
[51:29] Speaker 3: wrong to begin with and really needs to change. Islam
[51:32] Speaker 3: is a very complex religion with so many sects, with
[51:36] Speaker 3: so many lineages, with so many ideologies, and so many
[51:40] Speaker 3: belief systems, not only between the Sunnis and the Shiahites,
[51:43] Speaker 3: but even within the Sunisia have the Humbli, the Malki,
[51:46] Speaker 3: and it just goes on and on. The Shiahites have
[51:48] Speaker 3: the same and it continues to evolve as time goes.
[51:51] Speaker 3: So that's the first thing. Stop thinking of Islam as
[51:54] Speaker 3: a monolithic religion. Number one. Number two, If you are
[51:58] Speaker 3: interested in knowing more about the religion, read it from
[52:00] Speaker 3: a scholarly standpoint, but also read the Koran and the
[52:03] Speaker 3: interpretation of the Koran.
[52:04] Speaker 4: God, don't make me read the Koran. I started the
[52:07] Speaker 4: Koran and it was numbing.
[52:09] Speaker 2: What am I? Or is it just me?
[52:11] Speaker 3: So there's parts of it that I can see as numbing.
[52:13] Speaker 3: There's parts of it that are really disturbing, and there's
[52:15] Speaker 3: parts of it that are, oh, okay, this makes sense.
[52:18] Speaker 3: This is very sweet and lovely. So just like the Bible,
[52:21] Speaker 3: it has stories of horror, it has messages of absolute insanity,
[52:26] Speaker 3: and then it has moments where you're like, oh.
[52:28] Speaker 2: This is this is a good poetry. Kind of thing.
[52:30] Speaker 3: Yeah, this is good. This is a lovely story or
[52:32] Speaker 3: a fairy tale, or this is a beautiful message. So
[52:34] Speaker 3: it has a little bit of everything. So, if not
[52:36] Speaker 3: from the entertainment standpoint, maybe from the trying to understand upset.
[52:41] Speaker 4: Do your due diligence and know what's in the Koran, Okay,
[52:44] Speaker 4: and you don't have to.
[52:45] Speaker 3: But what I would to answer your question, I think
[52:47] Speaker 3: it's really important for people who want to show solidarity,
[52:51] Speaker 3: who want to stand by, especially diversity. I know that's
[52:57] Speaker 3: a word many are allergic to right now, But if
[52:59] Speaker 3: you really want to not be a xenophobe and you
[53:01] Speaker 3: want to be kind to other people, accept them from
[53:05] Speaker 3: who they are as human beings, and treat people as
[53:07] Speaker 3: they are, I'll answer your question by kind of giving
[53:10] Speaker 3: you the example of a question I get asked often.
[53:13] Speaker 3: How do I then answer when people are bringing up
[53:16] Speaker 3: Islam and I don't feel like as a Westerner I
[53:19] Speaker 3: can say, but Islam is bad because of all these things. No,
[53:21] Speaker 3: that's not what we need to do. What you need
[53:23] Speaker 3: to do is address the human rights violations and not
[53:26] Speaker 3: just an Islam in any part of the world. So
[53:29] Speaker 3: if you're going to say listen, I understand you are
[53:31] Speaker 3: talking about religion, but I really have a question around
[53:34] Speaker 3: women and the treatment of women, the oppression of women.
[53:37] Speaker 3: Talk about the human experience, and then that'll translate into
[53:41] Speaker 3: maybe this ideology needs to be addressed or changed or
[53:43] Speaker 3: maybe questioned. If you're not comfortable to go straight to
[53:47] Speaker 3: the source and question the source, start with the violations
[53:50] Speaker 3: of the source, and then eventually you'll get to the source.
[53:53] Speaker 4: Our shared humanity. That's right, Jasmin, You're amazing. Thanks for
[53:56] Speaker 4: talking to me.
[53:57] Speaker 3: It's an honor to be on your show. Set. Thank you.
[54:00] Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter. For a complete
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[54:15] Speaker 1: Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.

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