# Glenda Jordan: Hot and Unbothered

An episode of [TheThinkingAtheist](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/412308695), 21 Oct 2025, 35 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/mgln.ai/e/711/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/67348547/podcast825_glendajordan.mp3

Artist and activist Glenda Jordan broke free from Christian purity culture. Today she works with Recovering From Religion. Enjoy this conversation about her puritan past and poly present. VIDEO of this interview Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/thethinkingatheist--3270347/support.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
[0:09] Speaker 1: an idea.
[0:10] Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through.
[0:13] Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If
[0:18] Speaker 1: I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth,
[0:22] Speaker 1: not because.
[0:22] Speaker 2: I put my hand on a book and made a.
[0:24] Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.
[0:29] Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.
[0:32] Speaker 2: Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way.
[0:35] Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
[0:43] Speaker 1: Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
[0:56] Speaker 2: Blenda Jordan is trouble, and I mean that in the
[1:01] Speaker 2: best sense of the term. She's good to trouble. She's
[1:04] Speaker 2: been a long time friend of mine and I just
[1:06] Speaker 2: so admire her, especially for her work with recovering from
[1:11] Speaker 2: religion and recently I had the opportunity to get her
[1:14] Speaker 2: on camera to talk about her journey out of the
[1:17] Speaker 2: faith and some other stuff. There were two main reasons
[1:20] Speaker 2: that I wanted to have a conversation. The first was
[1:22] Speaker 2: the deconstruction story. I'm all about the ex vangelical What
[1:27] Speaker 2: did you believe? How did you bust out? What's your
[1:30] Speaker 2: opinion now, and she certainly tells that story in the
[1:34] Speaker 2: first half of our chat, and then we get into
[1:37] Speaker 2: her I'm not going to call it peculiar, but it
[1:42] Speaker 2: is for many people an unusual and maybe even a
[1:45] Speaker 2: scary model or repulsive model for relationships. And she's very
[1:52] Speaker 2: open about it, and I thought, okay, well, let's demystify
[1:56] Speaker 2: it and let's figure out what we're talking about. How's
[1:59] Speaker 2: that for it teaser? So anyway, it's a one two
[2:02] Speaker 2: punch with Glinda Jordan today. The YouTube link for this
[2:07] Speaker 2: is in the description box in case you want to
[2:09] Speaker 2: watch it. Talking here to my friend Glinda Jordan. And
[2:20] Speaker 2: it's hard to know how to describe you because you
[2:24] Speaker 2: do a lot of public speaking, you are involved in
[2:28] Speaker 2: the arts. You're kind of a renaissance woman. Is that fair? Yeah?
[2:33] Speaker 3: I would consider myself a jill of many trades for sure.
[2:35] Speaker 2: So I have to start here. You apparently flew here
[2:41] Speaker 2: from Riven Dell. As I look at your aesthetic, people
[2:45] Speaker 2: are going to wonder, what you know, what is this
[2:48] Speaker 2: expression that you have with your little Is that a
[2:51] Speaker 2: what do you call that a tiara?
[2:53] Speaker 3: Or what is it's just a circlet? I'm a fantasy girl.
[2:58] Speaker 3: I love it was one of my escapes growing up
[3:01] Speaker 3: where I grew up and love any fantasy clothing and LARPing,
[3:06] Speaker 3: and it just feels it's an aesthetic that I've curated
[3:09] Speaker 3: over time that feels truly myself.
[3:11] Speaker 2: I think it's amazing.
[3:12] Speaker 3: Thank you.
[3:13] Speaker 2: You ever do like the comic con type stuff, you know,
[3:15] Speaker 2: where you go full cosplay?
[3:17] Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I do more festivals than conventions where
[3:20] Speaker 3: I run around in a forest dressed up as a fairy. Yes,
[3:22] Speaker 3: I do that.
[3:23] Speaker 2: And you're a mermaid.
[3:25] Speaker 3: Yes, I have done that too, Yes, professionally, I've been
[3:27] Speaker 3: paid to do that. Yes.
[3:28] Speaker 2: Now, hang on before we get into the meat of
[3:32] Speaker 2: our discussion. I saw a documentary I don't recall the title,
[3:35] Speaker 2: about an entire culture of people who put on these
[3:39] Speaker 2: fins skirt thingies. Yes, and they go and perform shows
[3:46] Speaker 2: as mermaids. You know something about that.
[3:50] Speaker 3: I know them. I am not a professional mermaid in
[3:52] Speaker 3: that way. I just was hired to be a mermaid
[3:54] Speaker 3: at a one off gig.
[3:56] Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so you're not in the big fish
[3:58] Speaker 2: tank and vague is flying around.
[4:01] Speaker 3: No, you do have to be certified to do that
[4:03] Speaker 3: for safety reasons and I am not just.
[4:05] Speaker 2: An odd conversation like mermaids and whatnot, but I totally
[4:10] Speaker 2: and Glenda and I have known each other for a
[4:12] Speaker 2: long long time and this is the first time we
[4:14] Speaker 2: really had a chance to chat on camera. So your
[4:19] Speaker 2: mom is amazing.
[4:22] Speaker 3: Her gud name is Gail Jordan, and Gail Jordan is
[4:24] Speaker 3: the executive director of Recovering from Religion.
[4:27] Speaker 2: And your mom was a She was a shiny, happy
[4:31] Speaker 2: people Dougger family type mom.
[4:36] Speaker 3: Not quite Dugger family. We were not iblp but we
[4:39] Speaker 3: were dominionist evangelical Southern Baptists Christians.
[4:42] Speaker 2: Not long skirts and no makea not quite the level.
[4:47] Speaker 3: Where we were not allowed to wear pants. No, not
[4:49] Speaker 3: quite there. But as soon as the doors were open
[4:52] Speaker 3: in the church, we were in the pews and did
[4:55] Speaker 3: discipleship now and mission trip training. And that was our
[4:59] Speaker 3: lie for a long time. And she was the Susie homemaker,
[5:04] Speaker 3: Denham jumper wearing casserole dish making pt mom.
[5:09] Speaker 2: Mom. And you reflected that in your own personality or
[5:15] Speaker 2: were you always? I mean, I don't I have a
[5:17] Speaker 2: hard time seeing you. I have a hard time seeing you.
[5:21] Speaker 3: Well it caress bible drill. Yeah, I have a picture
[5:25] Speaker 3: of it. Yes, I did Bible Drill. I did Bible
[5:29] Speaker 3: Bible Drill Championship Explain Bible Drill. Bible Drill is a
[5:33] Speaker 3: competition where you are drilled on your knowledge of the Bible,
[5:37] Speaker 3: and you have a tournament edition Bible and you are
[5:40] Speaker 3: tested on your memorization of They'll say like Acts twenty
[5:45] Speaker 3: two to three or whatever, and you have to find
[5:47] Speaker 3: the verse as fast as you can, and if you're
[5:48] Speaker 3: the fastest person, you win, and or they'll tell you
[5:52] Speaker 3: a verse for example for the God soul of the world.
[5:54] Speaker 3: You know John three siste right, and you can win
[5:58] Speaker 3: them and I did.
[5:59] Speaker 2: I won. Did you get a trophy?
[6:01] Speaker 3: It did? I did? It was praying hands And I
[6:04] Speaker 3: am very sad that I don't have that trophy anymore.
[6:07] Speaker 3: It somehow has gotten lost over the years because I
[6:08] Speaker 3: would put that on my shelf I keep. I also
[6:11] Speaker 3: have my Purity Pledge card. I think that's very funny material.
[6:14] Speaker 2: You signed a purity pledge true love weights, I promise
[6:19] Speaker 2: I will not have sex until I get married. Yeah,
[6:22] Speaker 2: we're speaking in Tennessee. By the way, I don't know
[6:26] Speaker 2: how many crosses, how many churches, and how many freaking
[6:29] Speaker 2: maga flags. I drove by getting hands.
[6:31] Speaker 3: This is where I grew up.
[6:33] Speaker 2: I saw a flag yesterday, didn't just say maga. It
[6:35] Speaker 2: said ultra maga, which apparently is maga, and then more maga, then.
[6:41] Speaker 3: Some the cult's gold. Yeah, this was I was. I
[6:43] Speaker 3: grew up on a farm about an hour away.
[6:45] Speaker 2: From here now, so year out what fix and fans
[6:48] Speaker 2: and working cows.
[6:50] Speaker 3: Yeah, we had cattle. We had white charlet. We had
[6:54] Speaker 3: hogs at one point, horses, goats, donkeys, chickens. I got
[6:59] Speaker 3: about a hundreds. Yeah, that was what I grew up.
[7:02] Speaker 3: Bail and hay and muck and chicken pens.
[7:03] Speaker 2: And see you out there with a straw hat and
[7:06] Speaker 2: the hay coming out of your mouth, and you're just you.
[7:09] Speaker 3: Have a bear of overalls with me.
[7:10] Speaker 2: I do you brought over all?
[7:12] Speaker 3: Yes? I wear a mom's iron.
[7:13] Speaker 2: So when you were being raised, then, what was the
[7:16] Speaker 2: role of a woman? You say, your mom is was
[7:19] Speaker 2: like the you know, the helpmate? Were you trained to
[7:23] Speaker 2: be that?
[7:24] Speaker 3: See? It was? It was interesting because yes, mom was,
[7:27] Speaker 3: but she was always mom. She was always the charismatic, loud,
[7:34] Speaker 3: intoxicating person that she is now. And that clashed a
[7:38] Speaker 3: little with the church but we just did it anyway.
[7:41] Speaker 2: And I mean with the husband, the head of the house,
[7:44] Speaker 2: and she diverted it deferred to him.
[7:47] Speaker 3: It was my parents, I mean, they were unique in
[7:49] Speaker 3: their way. It was it felt like an equal partnership
[7:52] Speaker 3: in some ways in the house. Now, my mother was
[7:53] Speaker 3: a homemaker too, and true she was a housewife. That was,
[7:56] Speaker 3: she did all the cooking and cleaning and child really
[8:00] Speaker 3: because my father was a pilot and was gone for
[8:02] Speaker 3: long periods of time, and that was those were the roles.
[8:06] Speaker 3: But it didn't my parents did not sit me down.
[8:09] Speaker 3: My parents did not sit me down and say that
[8:12] Speaker 3: these are what you are supposed to do. The culture
[8:15] Speaker 3: at large said that. But my parents were a little
[8:18] Speaker 3: unique in the environment. I had wonderful parents.
[8:21] Speaker 2: All right. So here I am and I see bare shoulders,
[8:25] Speaker 2: and I'm thinking the glenda of old would you would
[8:29] Speaker 2: you have been chastised for showing any I was in church?
[8:34] Speaker 3: You know, growing up on the farm, it was a
[8:36] Speaker 3: lot of just dirty t shirts and overalls. It was
[8:38] Speaker 3: just working clothes.
[8:39] Speaker 2: I mean, did they measure the hen to the skirt
[8:41] Speaker 2: and all of that stuff in.
[8:43] Speaker 3: Church and schools? Yes, again we were I was allowed
[8:47] Speaker 3: to wear pants, which was very progressive.
[8:52] Speaker 2: Wow, aren't you edgy? You like the youth pastor with
[8:56] Speaker 2: the tattoos. That shows that he's seen some shit. Man,
[8:59] Speaker 2: he's been out in the world. Man.
[9:00] Speaker 3: Yeah, we were allowed to wear pants. It was radical.
[9:04] Speaker 3: I was allowed to read radical. It was I mean again, example,
[9:09] Speaker 3: I was allowed to read Harry Potter. My parents let
[9:11] Speaker 3: me read Harry Potter, and that was very radical. We
[9:14] Speaker 3: had to keep that on the d L in the church.
[9:16] Speaker 3: For sure.
[9:16] Speaker 2: I knew somebody who wouldn't let their kids watch Jumanji
[9:20] Speaker 2: because they said Jumanji was like a Ouiji board that
[9:23] Speaker 2: would open up. I don't know does that bring for you?
[9:27] Speaker 3: Like I'm trying to think of everything that I volunteer
[9:30] Speaker 3: with an incredible person, Kara Griffin, and they also volunteer
[9:34] Speaker 3: for recovering from religion and just everything under the sun
[9:37] Speaker 3: was demonic. Teletubbies and Pokemon and teenage mutant Ninja turtles
[9:43] Speaker 3: and anything was everything was demons and devils. But we
[9:46] Speaker 3: didn't do a lot of demonology in my church.
[9:48] Speaker 2: That was not it was more.
[9:51] Speaker 3: It was more my church was more like the Americana
[9:56] Speaker 3: of the Square Wall, you know, white Anglo Saxon Protestant,
[10:03] Speaker 3: very narrow. We didn't do a lot of the hysterical.
[10:07] Speaker 3: We were not a charismatic church. There was no speaking
[10:10] Speaker 3: in tongues at my church at all. We would have
[10:11] Speaker 3: looked down at that. I would have been way too expressive.
[10:14] Speaker 2: But this was an Assembly of God church, or this
[10:17] Speaker 2: was Southern Baptist. Oh, for some reason I thought you
[10:20] Speaker 2: were more like maybe it's your personality.
[10:22] Speaker 3: But I know, right, could you imagine if I had
[10:24] Speaker 3: grown up in a charismatic church, I would be unhinged.
[10:27] Speaker 2: No, you would have spontaneously combusted. You would literally be
[10:31] Speaker 2: ash on the ground with a high heel sticking out.
[10:33] Speaker 3: Probably I think I would have. I think if I
[10:35] Speaker 3: had grown up were in a church where I had
[10:37] Speaker 3: to make prophetic you know, you had to make prophecies
[10:40] Speaker 3: or speaking in tongues. I mean I was a theater kid,
[10:42] Speaker 3: so it's a show, I would have I would have
[10:47] Speaker 3: been unhinged with it.
[10:49] Speaker 2: I think, are you that person where you there's this
[10:51] Speaker 2: meme that shows the light switch and it says absolutely obsessed,
[10:56] Speaker 2: utterly uninterested. I tend to go there one thousand percent
[11:02] Speaker 2: or I've moved on.
[11:03] Speaker 3: Yeah kind of yeah, it kind of feels like that.
[11:06] Speaker 3: You know, my transition out of the faith felt pretty
[11:09] Speaker 3: quick in some ways, and I did fight it for
[11:12] Speaker 3: a while, but once, I mean, I was ready to
[11:14] Speaker 3: let go. There was so much fun on the other side.
[11:16] Speaker 3: I was ready to walk away.
[11:18] Speaker 2: How does that happen? I know your mom. I'm not
[11:21] Speaker 2: interviewing your mom, but Gail is family, and we have
[11:25] Speaker 2: videos of Gail Jordan from the archive. But you know,
[11:30] Speaker 2: she talked about her own journey out, a very difficult journey.
[11:33] Speaker 2: It was harder, lots of costs in her life for
[11:38] Speaker 2: leaving the faith, and a lot of that I think
[11:41] Speaker 2: informs why she cares so much about recovering from religion.
[11:46] Speaker 2: You didn't have to go through that gauntlet the way
[11:49] Speaker 2: she did. Not at all.
[11:50] Speaker 3: I won. I was I deconstructed when I was nineteen.
[11:53] Speaker 3: And she was doing it middle aged and with married
[11:57] Speaker 3: to a Christian man. So it meant her marriage was
[12:00] Speaker 3: falling apart, all of her kids were leaving for college,
[12:03] Speaker 3: her social circle was falling apart, and she was losing everything.
[12:06] Speaker 3: Whereas for me, I was going off to college. I
[12:08] Speaker 3: was so ready to get the hell out of my hometown,
[12:13] Speaker 3: where I was seen as just the weirdo freak and
[12:17] Speaker 3: you're different and you don't follow the rules.
[12:19] Speaker 2: Wait, why were you a weirdo freak?
[12:21] Speaker 3: I just didn't. I just went against the grain.
[12:24] Speaker 2: You are a little bigger than life I was. I
[12:27] Speaker 2: mean that in the best sense of the word.
[12:28] Speaker 3: I became a vegetarian while I was still Christian, and
[12:31] Speaker 3: that was a big moment.
[12:32] Speaker 2: What because recycling equals environmentalism, which equals live, which equals
[12:37] Speaker 2: democrat which equals progressive, which equals godless.
[12:41] Speaker 3: Yes, it's earth worship, and earth worship is pagan and.
[12:45] Speaker 2: The earth is our resource God. Put it in. We're
[12:48] Speaker 2: supposed to you shit up and leave our trash in
[12:50] Speaker 2: the corner because Jesus will be back tomorrow.
[12:53] Speaker 3: Roster's gonna happen anytime. We don't have to take care
[12:55] Speaker 3: of this place. It's fine. Yes, that's literally, Yes, that
[12:57] Speaker 3: was literally reason we were told Earth Day because I
[13:00] Speaker 3: was becoming an environmentalist. Remember, grew up on a farm.
[13:02] Speaker 3: I happen to like nature, so I think recycling and
[13:06] Speaker 3: being a steward of the land is a good thing.
[13:08] Speaker 3: And that was not met with enthusiasm.
[13:11] Speaker 2: What's that line that said, let's say climate change wasn't
[13:14] Speaker 2: real human cause climate change. What if we just acted
[13:18] Speaker 2: in more clean, efficient ways and made the better planet
[13:22] Speaker 2: for the hell of it, because it was the right
[13:24] Speaker 2: thing to do.
[13:25] Speaker 3: How dare you suggest, yeah, blasphemy?
[13:28] Speaker 2: Did you fully become a non believer in college?
[13:31] Speaker 1: Oh?
[13:31] Speaker 3: Yes? By the time, I mean I was also entering
[13:33] Speaker 3: art school. I was getting a BFA in painting, which
[13:36] Speaker 3: is as you know, damn dirty hippie liberal.
[13:40] Speaker 2: What do you mean, You're painting nude people? And hey,
[13:43] Speaker 2: there's the model.
[13:44] Speaker 3: And the arts have always been on the progressive sides.
[13:46] Speaker 3: It's always been the I mean, god, it sounds so
[13:48] Speaker 3: obnoxious right now, but you know, Bohemians have always been
[13:52] Speaker 3: progressive freethinkers going against the grain. You know. It was
[13:55] Speaker 3: one of the things during Third Reich Hitler targeted, if
[13:58] Speaker 3: you've ever heard of the degenerate art exhibit to the
[14:01] Speaker 3: state it's one of the most attended art exhibits that's
[14:03] Speaker 3: ever existed.
[14:04] Speaker 1: He made an.
[14:06] Speaker 3: Exhibit of artists, gay and feminists and transgender artists and
[14:11] Speaker 3: anyone who is not adhering to the tenets of the
[14:14] Speaker 3: Third Reich to show off this is what degenerate art is.
[14:17] Speaker 3: And at the end of that exhibit, they earned all
[14:19] Speaker 3: of that artwork. We lost a lot of very important pieces.
[14:22] Speaker 2: I have said that in the fight to change the culture,
[14:27] Speaker 2: it'll be the artists, I think who lead that charge.
[14:30] Speaker 2: I don't think we can't rely on the Congress to
[14:32] Speaker 2: do it. Maybe the local and the regional courts may
[14:36] Speaker 2: be certainly not the Supreme Court. I really do think
[14:40] Speaker 2: it's going to be the creators, those who can express
[14:45] Speaker 2: and who are You're right? I mean, you're a rebel, Glenda.
[14:49] Speaker 3: And I don't think I honestly didn't think I was
[14:52] Speaker 3: at the time, which was a very frustrating feeling. I
[14:55] Speaker 3: don't think recycling is that radical. I think y'all are
[14:59] Speaker 3: just weird.
[15:00] Speaker 2: Well I'm talking about beyond it. I mean just you know,
[15:05] Speaker 2: different sexual expressions.
[15:07] Speaker 3: And even that I didn't think that was weird. I
[15:10] Speaker 3: didn't think at the time, Like I didn't come out
[15:12] Speaker 3: as queer until way later. But it was meeting other
[15:16] Speaker 3: meeting other queer people, and meeting transgender people, and being
[15:20] Speaker 3: in college and and my hometown and you know, everyone
[15:24] Speaker 3: that I grew up with, like that's you freak. It's like,
[15:26] Speaker 3: I just we're kind of I don't see what's weird
[15:29] Speaker 3: about this. You know what I think is weird staying
[15:32] Speaker 3: in your hometown, never leaving and thinking of one off
[15:35] Speaker 3: trip to Panama City Beach where you'd all wear white
[15:38] Speaker 3: pillows and khakis as your exotic vacation of the year.
[15:41] Speaker 3: That's weird to me.
[15:43] Speaker 2: I mean, but a lot of people feel safe in
[15:45] Speaker 2: that very narrow space. That different frightens them.
[15:49] Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't relate. I always wanted I was seeking
[15:51] Speaker 3: adventure from and that distilled in me from my mother.
[15:54] Speaker 3: I mean, she she went off to backpack in Europe
[15:56] Speaker 3: when she was a teenager.
[15:58] Speaker 2: God, I didn't see the ocean to love is there?
[16:01] Speaker 2: I swear to you. I talk about sheltered like we
[16:04] Speaker 2: always vacationed up north at a relative's house and we
[16:07] Speaker 2: would just but I never.
[16:08] Speaker 3: Which ocean did you see?
[16:10] Speaker 2: I flew over the Pacific. We were flying actually on
[16:14] Speaker 2: a missions trip, and so I was on a plane.
[16:17] Speaker 2: We were doing one of those child welfare things where
[16:19] Speaker 2: you sponsored a child. It's like World Vision. It was
[16:23] Speaker 2: called Compassion International, and you know, for only eleven dollars
[16:26] Speaker 2: a month you can feed a child. And so they
[16:28] Speaker 2: sent me over with a bunch of other broadcasters to
[16:31] Speaker 2: like documents and call back about doing God's good work.
[16:35] Speaker 2: And it's not that they weren't feeding children, which is amazing.
[16:39] Speaker 3: Which is wonderful. Yes, it just comes with and also.
[16:42] Speaker 2: Bringing medicines and all that. But it was it was
[16:45] Speaker 2: kind of loaded, right because it was almost like Jesus
[16:48] Speaker 2: feeding the five thousand. He fed them physically so that
[16:51] Speaker 2: he could then feed them in the more important way,
[16:54] Speaker 2: which was spiritually. Yeah, and I've come to think now
[16:58] Speaker 2: that missionary work is really colonization.
[17:01] Speaker 3: Oh yes, yes, you know. I actually you know that
[17:04] Speaker 3: one kid who got killed by the Sentineleese tribe on
[17:08] Speaker 3: the island.
[17:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, he decided, for those who aren't familiar, this poor
[17:12] Speaker 2: and doctrinated kid, really young twenty something who graduated from
[17:16] Speaker 2: Oral Roberts University, decided it was his mission in life
[17:19] Speaker 2: to go to an uncontacted island of this tribe and
[17:24] Speaker 2: bring them Jesus.
[17:26] Speaker 3: And diseases, which is if you're isolated, no, literally, if
[17:28] Speaker 3: you're isolated. That was a huge risk. It's one of
[17:30] Speaker 3: the reasons why we don't have contact.
[17:32] Speaker 2: He was illegal for him to go.
[17:33] Speaker 3: Huh. He refused to take no for an answer. Do
[17:35] Speaker 3: you know I have a weird connection to him. My
[17:37] Speaker 3: brother in law knew him when they were doing They
[17:40] Speaker 3: were doing like philanthropists work in Central or South America,
[17:44] Speaker 3: and my brother in law was there, and that kid
[17:46] Speaker 3: did not evangelize to him one time. He was still
[17:49] Speaker 3: a radical. He was a Christian then, And I just
[17:51] Speaker 3: think that that's interesting to know that, oh, he could
[17:55] Speaker 3: be evangelizing here, but he's not. It's about the clout
[17:58] Speaker 3: of doing it in the way that he was doing.
[18:00] Speaker 2: I feel like some of that's performative. Even who knows
[18:05] Speaker 2: his heart, I think he was genuinely brainwashed. But some
[18:09] Speaker 2: of this stuff is just clo.
[18:12] Speaker 3: Internet. Internet. Yeah, it's just circulture. Look at me, it's
[18:15] Speaker 3: a show. Look at how amazing it.
[18:17] Speaker 2: Yes, we have come back from the foreign land after
[18:21] Speaker 2: bringing the Gospel to the unclean kind of thing. Sometimes
[18:25] Speaker 2: that's the vibe. Short break more with my guest Glenda Jordan,
[18:31] Speaker 2: who works with Recovering from Religion dot org. I'll be
[18:35] Speaker 2: right back. Thank you so much for being a supporter
[18:45] Speaker 2: of this show and of this host on Paytreon. If
[18:49] Speaker 2: you like what you hear and you want to help
[18:51] Speaker 2: make it happen every single week it matters, just go
[18:53] Speaker 2: to Patreon dot com. Slash Seth Andrews. This is the
[18:59] Speaker 2: second half of my on camera conversation with activist, artist
[19:04] Speaker 2: and advocate who has done great work with recovering from religion,
[19:09] Speaker 2: Glenda Jordan. So you opened the door to talk about sexuality,
[19:16] Speaker 2: and you knew this was coming, and this is not
[19:18] Speaker 2: an ambush, and this is part of what you're speaking
[19:21] Speaker 2: about at a convention we're attending, So everybody watching this
[19:27] Speaker 2: is the like we knew we were going here.
[19:29] Speaker 3: I'm consenting to these questions enthusiastically.
[19:32] Speaker 2: And some of these questions I'm going to phrase in
[19:34] Speaker 2: the way that commenters might phrase these questions as they come. Sure,
[19:38] Speaker 2: you've heard them before, so I'm going to play Devil's
[19:40] Speaker 2: advocate from time to time. But actually I find your
[19:43] Speaker 2: story really amazing and the liberation from sexual control. I
[19:49] Speaker 2: mean you came out of a uh were you shamed?
[19:53] Speaker 2: Like was it sex shaming for being a woman?
[19:55] Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, I so you know again, I enjoyed purity
[20:00] Speaker 3: culture and that dealt with a lot of guilt and shame.
[20:04] Speaker 3: The first time I was ever aroused as a teenager
[20:07] Speaker 3: just randomly because I like found a smut book in
[20:11] Speaker 3: a bookstore and read some and got it. I had
[20:13] Speaker 3: a it was traumatic. I panicked, it was I felt
[20:19] Speaker 3: it was awful. It was a horrible feeling. I felt
[20:21] Speaker 3: like I wasn't in control of my body. I felt
[20:23] Speaker 3: so bad.
[20:25] Speaker 2: Because a lot of people say that men are the
[20:27] Speaker 2: ones who were stimulated by visual things, you know, the porn,
[20:32] Speaker 2: mag etc.
[20:33] Speaker 3: To be clear, it was it was I'm an intellectual
[20:35] Speaker 3: and I prefer to read my smut, and this was so.
[20:43] Speaker 3: It was it was a written It was written for me.
[20:45] Speaker 2: You are so quotable in the most twisted of ways.
[20:50] Speaker 3: It's true, though, No, it's true. It was just reading
[20:52] Speaker 3: and it wasn't It wasn't a romance novel. It was
[20:55] Speaker 3: like a sexual tips and tricks because I was in
[20:57] Speaker 3: the clearance section of book store, and.
[21:01] Speaker 2: Well, I know, erotic fiction does have a huge female target.
[21:05] Speaker 3: Right, Women in general prefer to read. Yeah, again, we're
[21:08] Speaker 3: smarter than.
[21:08] Speaker 2: You, So it's it's something I will not contest. It's true. Men,
[21:13] Speaker 2: You know, men, we have a lot to apologize for.
[21:16] Speaker 2: It's I'm not man hating, but I'm saying that.
[21:19] Speaker 3: You're not the visual visual pornography. That's fine. If that's
[21:23] Speaker 3: what that's what does That's very great, but I just
[21:26] Speaker 3: prefer to read.
[21:27] Speaker 2: But you're you? Are you? That does sound a little superior.
[21:30] Speaker 2: I'm just saying just.
[21:34] Speaker 3: So.
[21:35] Speaker 2: When I came out of the faith, I and maybe
[21:39] Speaker 2: I still do. I'm very shy, you know. I. And
[21:43] Speaker 2: when I speak to people who have liberated themselves and sexually,
[21:47] Speaker 2: you know, and they're telling me their story, I find it.
[21:49] Speaker 2: There's an admiration. I think, Wow, what an amazing world
[21:52] Speaker 2: that they live in. But a lot of it is
[21:55] Speaker 2: like the foreign country to me. And so I ask
[21:59] Speaker 2: questions that might come off as naive and if I
[22:02] Speaker 2: do you okay, So you are poly?
[22:08] Speaker 3: Yes? Polyamorous? Yes?
[22:09] Speaker 2: What does that mean?
[22:11] Speaker 3: Polyamorous? Poly meaning many, amorous meaning loves, many loves. I've
[22:15] Speaker 3: been in a polyamorous relationship structure for over a decade.
[22:19] Speaker 3: I am engaged to my fiance live, we nest together,
[22:23] Speaker 3: we cohabitate. But I have other secure attachments that that
[22:26] Speaker 3: I date, and they are very important to me. And
[22:29] Speaker 3: it's one. It's honestly a big, happy family.
[22:33] Speaker 2: You know the Puritans. You've heard the Puritans. They're saying adulteress.
[22:38] Speaker 3: Sure, okay, harlot okay, slut sure. I have found that
[22:45] Speaker 3: especially men men call women's sluts for having any amount
[22:48] Speaker 3: of sex, any amount, whether it's minimal or not, any
[22:51] Speaker 3: amount of sex that doesn't include them personally.
[22:54] Speaker 2: Ohie, really, you think there's some men be going on.
[22:57] Speaker 2: Maybe there are. There's always been a double standard, right
[22:59] Speaker 2: when the guy go out and me has multiple conquests
[23:01] Speaker 2: and in that context conquest. Yeah, he's a player, he's
[23:06] Speaker 2: a player player, And when a woman does it, she's ruined,
[23:09] Speaker 2: she's a she's a slut, she's a whore.
[23:11] Speaker 3: Right, Okay, yeah, sure, you know. I fell into this
[23:17] Speaker 3: world pretty easily. It actually felt extremely natural for me.
[23:21] Speaker 3: It felt I don't know how else to describe it. It
[23:25] Speaker 3: was just easy. I started out my relationship with my fiance.
[23:28] Speaker 3: I was in two monogamous relationships, long term, dedicated before
[23:33] Speaker 3: I met my my current partners, and I was cheated
[23:37] Speaker 3: on in both of them. And it sucked. It was brutal.
[23:41] Speaker 3: My first boyfriend cheated on me of my best friend
[23:43] Speaker 3: for months. It was not a great time. I went
[23:47] Speaker 3: through a tense process of my self worth and my
[23:51] Speaker 3: value as a person. And then and then when I
[23:54] Speaker 3: got out of an abusive relationship, I decided that I
[23:57] Speaker 3: was living in Vegas. Still I still live. I was
[24:00] Speaker 3: twenty two, twenty three ish, I'm hot, I'm free, and
[24:05] Speaker 3: I wasn't gonna just live my life and have fun.
[24:08] Speaker 3: And that meant that I was not going to endure
[24:12] Speaker 3: adhering to anybody else's rules anymore at all. I was
[24:14] Speaker 3: just gonna do what I wanted. And that ended up
[24:17] Speaker 3: being open relationships with people. And it started out that way,
[24:20] Speaker 3: and it was the most incredible experience of my life.
[24:23] Speaker 3: And my partners are they are so magical. I cannot
[24:27] Speaker 3: I just I don't. I can't. I get caught up
[24:31] Speaker 3: with how amazing?
[24:32] Speaker 2: All right, Devil's Advocate question, is this not just to
[24:36] Speaker 2: fuck you to your former life?
[24:39] Speaker 3: I don't. I'm not motivated by wanting to do stuff
[24:44] Speaker 3: because I wasn't allowed to. If I want to do
[24:47] Speaker 3: what I do, if I don't want to do it,
[24:48] Speaker 3: I don't. But there is a sense of vengeful joy
[24:54] Speaker 3: in doing things that the church tried to take away
[24:57] Speaker 3: from me. I will fully admit, but I won't. I
[25:00] Speaker 3: don't do anything because someone told me not to.
[25:03] Speaker 2: It's like an ancillary benefit. It's a liberation exercise in
[25:06] Speaker 2: that way.
[25:07] Speaker 3: Yeah, it happens to fiss off the church in some Okay, cool, fine,
[25:11] Speaker 3: it makes you mad. Sure, I'm not doing it to
[25:13] Speaker 3: make all mad.
[25:14] Speaker 2: This is even in the atheist space, the humanist space.
[25:19] Speaker 2: I mean, this is foreign, scary, uncomfortable maybe is the
[25:23] Speaker 2: best word.
[25:24] Speaker 3: Territory threatening. It's very threatening to people.
[25:27] Speaker 2: What's that about? Like, you know, more than curiosity. There
[25:31] Speaker 2: seems to be an aversion or a repulsion.
[25:34] Speaker 3: Oh yeah, angered, a downright hostility. It's staggering. We as
[25:40] Speaker 3: a culture royal, we see love as a finite resource
[25:43] Speaker 3: that has to be controlled, and we can't allow anyone
[25:45] Speaker 3: else to tap into our supply because it's a threat
[25:48] Speaker 3: to ourselves. And when you recognize that people are not
[25:51] Speaker 3: property and that love is infinite and abundance, life kind
[25:55] Speaker 3: of opens up for you. And I'm not telling you
[25:56] Speaker 3: to be polyamorous. I hope you know that this is
[25:58] Speaker 3: not I can't.
[26:01] Speaker 2: People are wired and different like I Natalie and I are.
[26:05] Speaker 2: We are each other's people and that's that's what works
[26:07] Speaker 2: for us. Yeah, right. But for those who frame it differently,
[26:11] Speaker 2: or who are I don't know, fed or spoken to,
[26:14] Speaker 2: are fulfilled? Maybe it's the word in a different way.
[26:17] Speaker 2: It doesn't hurt anybody everybody's consenting. We're all adults, entodiastically consenting. Yes.
[26:22] Speaker 2: Whenever we talk about how we need to break away
[26:26] Speaker 2: from the church's constraints on sex, people are like, yeah,
[26:30] Speaker 2: but even in the liberal atheist, progressive humanist space, then
[26:34] Speaker 2: we'll see a type of sexual expression that freaks us
[26:37] Speaker 2: out and somehow we go back to being fundies.
[26:40] Speaker 3: This is too far. Stop doing that. This is wrong.
[26:42] Speaker 3: This is not how This is not how people are
[26:44] Speaker 3: supposed to be. This is not how relationships are supposed
[26:47] Speaker 3: to work. And to that, I say, who told you that?
[26:49] Speaker 3: Who told you that? Where does that come from? Maybe
[26:52] Speaker 3: reflect on those feelings.
[26:53] Speaker 2: Okay, you're still educating me, right, talk to me in
[26:57] Speaker 2: small words, use your hands, all right. I'm a babe
[27:00] Speaker 2: in the woods here. I'm gonna throw one word out,
[27:03] Speaker 2: all right. In a polyamorous context, there are multiple partners
[27:08] Speaker 2: and you're sharing lives, and you're in one bed and
[27:10] Speaker 2: another bed and blah blah blah. Jealousy, Like, how does
[27:16] Speaker 2: how does someone not think they're not with me, They're
[27:19] Speaker 2: not touching me, they're not holding me, they're not spending
[27:21] Speaker 2: time with me, They're with someone else. How does jealousy
[27:25] Speaker 2: not make those relationships explode or implode.
[27:28] Speaker 3: I you know, for some people it does. For some
[27:30] Speaker 3: people who go into polyamory, they find they can't manage
[27:34] Speaker 3: those feelings. And I have a very unsatisfying answer, which
[27:36] Speaker 3: is that I don't really experience jealousy like that. I
[27:41] Speaker 3: experience compersion, which is the opposite of jealousy. When Nick,
[27:45] Speaker 3: my fiance, when he's with somebody else, I'm ecstatic. I'm
[27:48] Speaker 3: so happy. It makes me happy to know that he's
[27:51] Speaker 3: happy with somebody else. I love the feeling when my
[27:55] Speaker 3: other partners are supported by other people. It makes me
[27:58] Speaker 3: feel comfortable and safe, knowing that she wouldn't.
[28:02] Speaker 2: Mind me saying that, Like if Natalie was with someone else,
[28:04] Speaker 2: I would be heartbroken. I'd be like, am I not enough?
[28:08] Speaker 2: Are you starving to death in your heart? Is there
[28:10] Speaker 2: another issue? Are you bored? You know? Is this a
[28:13] Speaker 2: referendum on who we are?
[28:14] Speaker 3: I remember feeling that way.
[28:16] Speaker 2: I would be traumatized because I want to be her person.
[28:19] Speaker 2: So I guess maybe that means I'm wired differently, like
[28:24] Speaker 2: what meets my needs would be different than someone who
[28:27] Speaker 2: was attracted to a poly environment.
[28:29] Speaker 3: And I felt that way when I was cheated on
[28:33] Speaker 3: it took me to the core of my being. I
[28:35] Speaker 3: questioned everything about my identity and my value and myself
[28:39] Speaker 3: and I didn't think I could ever recover. It was
[28:43] Speaker 3: one of the most traumatizing things I experienced when I
[28:46] Speaker 3: was cheated on the way I was, and it put
[28:48] Speaker 3: my health at risk because of course they weren't using
[28:50] Speaker 3: protection and then went and had sex with me without
[28:53] Speaker 3: telling me, like that's a health risk, not having a
[28:55] Speaker 3: conversation about STIs and barriers anyway, it was traumatizing. Was lying.
[29:00] Speaker 3: That was the worst part. It wasn't the love and
[29:03] Speaker 3: support or whatever it was the it was the deception
[29:06] Speaker 3: and lying and breaking of boundaries. I don't my boundaries
[29:11] Speaker 3: are respected in my relationships, and.
[29:15] Speaker 2: Like you established the framework and you operate within the framework.
[29:18] Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you can cheat in polyamorous relationships. You absolutely
[29:22] Speaker 3: can cheat in them. And if I found on any
[29:24] Speaker 3: of my partners broke any of the boundaries that I had,
[29:26] Speaker 3: that would be traumatizing and upsetting. But they don't. We're
[29:30] Speaker 3: all adults and there's no reason to We just have
[29:32] Speaker 3: conversations and speak to each other.
[29:35] Speaker 2: It's funny, I've given my personality. I feel like I'm
[29:38] Speaker 2: peering in your windows. Glenna's like, nah, here's the front door,
[29:42] Speaker 2: Come on in, Come on there. Are you just are
[29:44] Speaker 2: freaking an open book? Yes, I am so. One last
[29:48] Speaker 2: question that you know is coming. She knows it's coming.
[29:52] Speaker 2: All right, everybody, I'm not being that guy. She knows
[29:55] Speaker 2: it's coming, you said, fiance, Yes you're Polly. Why get married?
[30:02] Speaker 3: It's a great question. Uh one who doesn't love a
[30:05] Speaker 3: good party? Don't you love a good party? I love
[30:07] Speaker 3: a good party. Sure, I'm getting married for I technically
[30:12] Speaker 3: am legally married now. And we got legally married because
[30:15] Speaker 3: I needed surgery, and that means I needed health insurance
[30:19] Speaker 3: because we don't have universal health care. So Nick and
[30:22] Speaker 3: I we've been together for a decade, and however long
[30:27] Speaker 3: we continue to be together, we want to be able
[30:29] Speaker 3: to make medical decisions for each other, visit each other
[30:31] Speaker 3: in the hospital room, protect each other in that way.
[30:34] Speaker 3: And unfortunately, domestic partnerships don't cut it when it comes
[30:38] Speaker 3: to the legal recognition of partnerships.
[30:42] Speaker 2: So empathetic to live in a first World count, a
[30:45] Speaker 2: developed nation where we have to have these conversations about
[30:48] Speaker 2: whether or not someone should have health coverage.
[30:51] Speaker 3: Yes, and it's also I with my other partners. I
[30:54] Speaker 3: genuinely wish that I could have legal agreements with my
[30:57] Speaker 3: other partners where I could be in the hospit little
[31:00] Speaker 3: room with them. I have been with one of my
[31:04] Speaker 3: other partners for longer than I've been with my fiance,
[31:06] Speaker 3: and if something happened, I would want to be able
[31:08] Speaker 3: to be there. But I'm I can't legally be his
[31:10] Speaker 3: wife at his spouse. And if I, you know, start dating,
[31:15] Speaker 3: if I start dating a woman who knows what gay
[31:17] Speaker 3: marriage is going to be, if we're able to, it's
[31:19] Speaker 3: there's just a lot up in the air. But that's
[31:21] Speaker 3: just not how the system is structured.
[31:23] Speaker 2: I feel like I've just been given a tour of
[31:25] Speaker 2: another planet, Like it's so much of this is just
[31:28] Speaker 2: literally it's just a lot.
[31:30] Speaker 3: And you know, if we just had universal health care
[31:32] Speaker 3: and protections, this wouldn't necessarily be an issue, would it.
[31:35] Speaker 3: It would not be as much of an issue.
[31:37] Speaker 2: I do think though, if as I gaze at your earrings,
[31:39] Speaker 2: I do suspect they have healing powers, Like if I
[31:42] Speaker 2: was to look at them, they seem to be they
[31:44] Speaker 2: have an aura. Actually, when I was a believer, I
[31:46] Speaker 2: would have seen the sun thing and I would have
[31:48] Speaker 2: figured you were a Satanic New Age type person.
[31:51] Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I did. The pipeline from fundy faith
[31:57] Speaker 3: into paganism into atheism is very really, I absolutely dove,
[32:02] Speaker 3: I like skipped into that. Wicka life for.
[32:06] Speaker 2: Sunflower emblems may be a sign that you are worshiping
[32:10] Speaker 2: the false God is all one?
[32:12] Speaker 3: You know what it is For a lot of women,
[32:13] Speaker 3: it's real. It's finding a spirituality that is not patriarchal.
[32:17] Speaker 3: And that was as I was coasting out of the faith.
[32:20] Speaker 3: And again I was a fantasy nerd, right, So Wicka
[32:23] Speaker 3: is right there. Renaissance festivals, LARPing, that's all right there.
[32:26] Speaker 2: What's LARPing?
[32:27] Speaker 3: Live action role play?
[32:29] Speaker 2: Se okay, so live action role playing? Thank you for
[32:33] Speaker 2: that big nerd culture. So this is really an expression
[32:37] Speaker 2: of connecting with nature, connecting with humanity, beyond the fundamental
[32:43] Speaker 2: background they came out of.
[32:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, I would actually consider myself an athiopagan. If you've
[32:48] Speaker 3: ever heard of atheopaganism, it's kind of paganism without any
[32:51] Speaker 3: supernatural belief.
[32:53] Speaker 2: A hang on atho pai paganism down somewhere. Yeh, Glinda,
[32:59] Speaker 2: you're thank you for us speaking out. You actually are
[33:03] Speaker 2: helping a lot of people, not just through we're recovering
[33:05] Speaker 2: from religion, but I think in general who have been
[33:08] Speaker 2: scarred damage, maybe they still have open wounds from fundamentalist cultures.
[33:13] Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot to admire about who
[33:16] Speaker 2: you are and what you do. And I'm just glad
[33:19] Speaker 2: we're pals.
[33:20] Speaker 3: I o same and you're doing similar work. I do
[33:23] Speaker 3: have to give a little shout out. I can't help it.
[33:25] Speaker 3: I have to plug the org that I volunteer for.
[33:27] Speaker 3: If you find yourself struggling with issues of doubt, please
[33:31] Speaker 3: know that there is somebody standing by ready to listen
[33:34] Speaker 3: to you with a sympathetic ear at recovering from religion.
[33:38] Speaker 3: We have a hotline and a chat line. We have
[33:40] Speaker 3: so many resources. If you are struggling with recovering from
[33:43] Speaker 3: purity culture, from fear of hell, if you feel disconnected
[33:47] Speaker 3: from your friends and family who are still believers, come
[33:50] Speaker 3: on over, Come on in water's warm. We're ready to
[33:53] Speaker 3: save space for you to be here for you. We're
[33:55] Speaker 3: not a deconversion service, and I help volunteer. I do
[33:59] Speaker 3: a weekly We get together once a week and we
[34:01] Speaker 3: talk about different stuff and I help moderate this meeting.
[34:03] Speaker 2: And you've done this pitch before.
[34:06] Speaker 3: Yes, but I can't. I can't. I can't emphasize it enough.
[34:09] Speaker 3: I just uh, it's there's so much joy. There's so
[34:11] Speaker 3: much joy on this line.
[34:12] Speaker 2: Recovering from religion dot Org, Glenda Jordan, thanks for chatting.
[34:16] Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
[34:17] Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a
[34:21] Speaker 1: complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and
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[34:28] Speaker 1: pages and resources, and details on upcoming freethought events and conventions.
[34:33] Speaker 1: Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.

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