# The Drones Are Coming! (with Brian Dunning)

An episode of [TheThinkingAtheist](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/412308695), 19 Dec 2024, 20 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/mgln.ai/e/711/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/63378242/podcast778_drones.mp3

Writer/Producer and UFO investigator Brian Dunning joins us for a chat about the recent "drone sightings" in New Jersey and beyond. VIDEO of this conversation: https://youtu.be/X1H6Ns0eOFI BRIAN'S PAGE: https://www.briandunning.com/ Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/thethinkingatheist--3270347/support.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
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[0:43] Speaker 1: Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
[0:56] Speaker 3: Given that everybody's talking about this story, it was too
[0:59] Speaker 3: good and oppertunity to pass up, so I wanted to
[1:02] Speaker 3: spend about twenty minutes on the drone sightings. There is
[1:08] Speaker 3: video of this conversation. That link is in the description
[1:12] Speaker 3: box of this podcast. We've all been talking about this
[1:18] Speaker 3: flurry of reports around New Jersey and surrounding states. People
[1:23] Speaker 3: are reporting lights in the sky, suspicious drones are flying
[1:27] Speaker 3: over homes and businesses, communities, government offices. What's going on?
[1:33] Speaker 3: Is this some kind of conspiracy? And it's not just
[1:37] Speaker 3: the conspiracy theorists. Everyday people walking around coming up with
[1:41] Speaker 3: some sort of a paranoid speculation about what's happening. The
[1:45] Speaker 3: politicians have jumped on board. I noticed that the mayor
[1:49] Speaker 3: of Montvale, New Jersey, he said he saw some drones
[1:53] Speaker 3: that were flying in sync with each other and he
[1:56] Speaker 3: found it very alarming privacy and security concern. Our paramount
[2:01] Speaker 3: New York Senator Chuck Schumer came forward and he suggested
[2:06] Speaker 3: using high tech drone hunters to get to the bottom
[2:09] Speaker 3: of all of this, And of course Donald Trump had
[2:13] Speaker 3: to get a few words in about I mean it,
[2:16] Speaker 3: really it was a dig at the current administration about
[2:19] Speaker 3: this whole drone debacle.
[2:21] Speaker 1: And I think they'd be better of saying what it is.
[2:23] Speaker 1: Our military knows and our president knows, and for some
[2:27] Speaker 1: reason they want to keep people in suspense.
[2:30] Speaker 3: On top of that, we've got mental health experts saying
[2:33] Speaker 3: this is just another mass panic, which is something that
[2:36] Speaker 3: human beings love to do. Right. Brian Dunning, my special guest.
[2:41] Speaker 3: You are the producer of a documentary called The UFO
[2:46] Speaker 3: Movie They Don't Want You to See. You're also well
[2:48] Speaker 3: known as host of the Skeptoid podcasted. You've written a
[2:52] Speaker 3: book called Conspiracies Declassified. Do you get into like UFOs
[2:58] Speaker 3: in that book.
[2:59] Speaker 2: Not so much that one we do like the nine
[3:01] Speaker 2: to eleven conspiracy. The book came out just as the
[3:05] Speaker 2: whole UAP thing and the congressional hearings were just getting started,
[3:11] Speaker 2: So it wasn't the pop culture phenomenon yet that it
[3:14] Speaker 2: is now.
[3:14] Speaker 3: The Department of Defense thing right where everybody was like
[3:17] Speaker 3: their declassifying video footage and now the truth shall be known,
[3:22] Speaker 3: and the truth was what nothing?
[3:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's just been this relatively small group of
[3:32] Speaker 2: really obsessed, lifelong UFO believers and professionals and authors who
[3:37] Speaker 2: have been incredibly successful at getting the media to sort
[3:41] Speaker 2: of promote their narrative that UFOs are some sort of
[3:45] Speaker 2: interdimensional spiritual beings and it's all wrapped in with life
[3:50] Speaker 2: after death, and it's very strange beliefs that these people have,
[3:53] Speaker 2: but they've been very successful getting congress people on board
[3:56] Speaker 2: and getting these hearings to be run over and over again.
[4:00] Speaker 2: It's fascinating how much it's permeated pop culture in just
[4:03] Speaker 2: a few years.
[4:04] Speaker 3: This is just another iteration of that. I mean, I've
[4:08] Speaker 3: seen that the footage I see lights points in the sky.
[4:13] Speaker 3: These are the same point in the sky that were
[4:15] Speaker 3: there six months ago, right.
[4:18] Speaker 2: Yeah, But that's the way the social contagion works is
[4:22] Speaker 2: when you know, you can see ordinary things all day long.
[4:25] Speaker 2: You live near LaGuardia Airport, you see planes coming in
[4:28] Speaker 2: all day long, and so you don't pay attention to them.
[4:31] Speaker 2: And then suddenly when you hear that everyone is seeing, Hey,
[4:33] Speaker 2: there's drones over LaGuardia. Then you do look and you
[4:36] Speaker 2: do pay attention. You say, oh, there's like a whole long,
[4:38] Speaker 2: of long line of lights appearing to be in formation. Well, yeah,
[4:41] Speaker 2: that's the way that airplanes approach an airport. And suddenly
[4:45] Speaker 2: you have this social contagion. Everyone hears it and suddenly
[4:49] Speaker 2: they attribute everything they see to this new phenomenon.
[4:53] Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I'll play Devil's advocate. Why now, I
[4:57] Speaker 3: mean someone seeing something? Are there maybe pranksters who were
[5:01] Speaker 3: throwing some extra drones up there to try to stir
[5:04] Speaker 3: the pots and get it?
[5:06] Speaker 2: Not necessarily, possibly, but not necessarily. All it takes is
[5:10] Speaker 2: for one person to misinterpret anything, whether they correctly interpreted
[5:14] Speaker 2: a real drone. I mean there's you know, the toy
[5:17] Speaker 2: Dji drones are everywhere, so it's entirely possible, or it
[5:21] Speaker 2: could have just been someone seen an airplane. Just about
[5:24] Speaker 2: two weeks ago, I was on some Japanese TV show
[5:26] Speaker 2: that had a video somebody took very obviously of an
[5:31] Speaker 2: airplane on its final approach. You could see all of
[5:34] Speaker 2: its navigation lights and everything. And this had gone viral
[5:38] Speaker 2: in Japan that everyone was thinking this was some kind
[5:40] Speaker 2: of a UFO, and I had to go on and explain, no,
[5:43] Speaker 2: look here, we can tell it's an airplane because of this, this, this,
[5:46] Speaker 2: and this, so it doesn't have to be a drone
[5:49] Speaker 2: or anything unusual to get one of these rages started.
[5:52] Speaker 2: That's what happened in Japan. That's what's happening right now
[5:56] Speaker 2: in New Jersey.
[5:57] Speaker 3: There is one photograph and I was looking really closely
[6:01] Speaker 3: at it and I'm thinking this obviously helicopter. Everybody screaming drowned.
[6:07] Speaker 3: I think the caption on the news photo said suspected
[6:11] Speaker 3: drone unidentified flying object, and I'm looking at it, going,
[6:14] Speaker 3: that's a chopper. It's a freaking helicopter.
[6:16] Speaker 2: Who suspects that? One question the Japanese producer, who was
[6:21] Speaker 2: very much a believer that this was something mysterious. One
[6:24] Speaker 2: question he asked me was, how did you come to
[6:26] Speaker 2: the conclusion that it was an airplane. It's like, that's
[6:31] Speaker 2: the starting assumption. That's not the conclusion you eventually reach
[6:35] Speaker 2: when you see an airplane doing a normal airplane thing,
[6:38] Speaker 2: in a normal airplane approach pattern. It's an airplane. There's
[6:42] Speaker 2: no reason to think otherwise. And he couldn't get around.
[6:45] Speaker 2: Why didn't you first assume that this was an alien
[6:47] Speaker 2: spaceship or something else extraordinary. It's just this backwards thinking
[6:51] Speaker 2: process is like that.
[6:52] Speaker 3: Fox Mulder poster that says, I want to believe did
[6:56] Speaker 3: you share it or maybe I tagged you in it?
[6:59] Speaker 3: It was as a drone identification poster and it showed
[7:03] Speaker 3: every known aircraft, everything from a seven thirty seven, you know,
[7:07] Speaker 3: to a single engine Sesna and it just is drone drone.
[7:10] Speaker 3: Have you seen that thing?
[7:11] Speaker 2: Yeah? I did, like labeled Aircraft Identification Guide drone drun.
[7:17] Speaker 3: Okay, well, you know I've played the Trump clip about
[7:20] Speaker 3: him saying, well, this current administration has been awfully slow
[7:24] Speaker 3: in saying something about this, you know, So the implication
[7:29] Speaker 3: is they've dropped the ball. They're either incompetent or they're
[7:33] Speaker 3: hiding something. How would you respond to that?
[7:37] Speaker 2: It's very difficult to respond to just baseless conspiracy theories.
[7:41] Speaker 2: There's simply no evidence of that. First, we know there's
[7:45] Speaker 2: nothing extraordinary. Well, we don't know there's nothing extraordinary. We
[7:47] Speaker 2: have no evidence that there is anything extraordinary, So there's
[7:51] Speaker 2: nothing for anyone to be covering up. But I mean,
[7:54] Speaker 2: Roseanne Barr is saying this is part of a project Bluebeam.
[7:58] Speaker 2: Have you heard about this Project blue Bean? This is
[8:04] Speaker 2: a new thing that some of the conspiracy crowd is.
[8:07] Speaker 2: They believe that the government is flying drones over us
[8:12] Speaker 2: to acclimate us to the idea of having drones everywhere
[8:16] Speaker 2: so that we'll be softened up when they have their
[8:19] Speaker 2: final solution, when the Deep State rounds us all into
[8:23] Speaker 2: concentration camps for orderly extermination, or it's just the most
[8:28] Speaker 2: bizarre thing.
[8:28] Speaker 3: I knew the Deep State was going to play into
[8:31] Speaker 3: this sentier later.
[8:32] Speaker 2: And then Joe Rogan just I guess I just saw
[8:34] Speaker 2: this on Newsweek this morning. I didn't see it or anything,
[8:36] Speaker 2: but Joe Rogan apparently is suggesting the same thing that
[8:39] Speaker 2: these are government deployed drones to acclimate us to you know,
[8:44] Speaker 2: whatever the final solution is going to be, Biden, the
[8:47] Speaker 2: deep State's final solution for Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg
[8:51] Speaker 2: are going to round us into extermination camps.
[8:53] Speaker 3: Joe Rogan once a moon landing deniers, so he has
[8:57] Speaker 3: a long history of being very late to the Marjorie
[9:01] Speaker 3: Taylor Green, of course, she had turned this into a
[9:04] Speaker 3: referendum on freedom. She's like, well, you're not gonna, you know,
[9:07] Speaker 3: cause me to shelter in place, as if all of
[9:10] Speaker 3: a sudden the government's going to command us to run
[9:12] Speaker 3: into our houses under our roofs or something and put
[9:15] Speaker 3: tinfoil hands on it. But she's like, she's threatening to
[9:19] Speaker 3: point guns in the air. Brian and other people are
[9:22] Speaker 3: echoing that.
[9:23] Speaker 2: Holy yeh, Nike. The real danger is that there are
[9:26] Speaker 2: congress people and everyone else demanding that the National Guard
[9:29] Speaker 2: be sent out and start actively trying to shoot down
[9:33] Speaker 2: these airplanes. And there's been a number of reports, I
[9:38] Speaker 2: don't know if any of them are confirmed, that residents
[9:40] Speaker 2: are shooting at airplanes because they think they're drones because
[9:44] Speaker 2: of this whole nonsense going on. And then whenever they
[9:47] Speaker 2: do produce a picture of the drone they're shooting at,
[9:50] Speaker 2: it's very obviously an airplane. So this is I mean,
[9:53] Speaker 2: there's definitely a dark serious side to this.
[9:56] Speaker 3: There are guides that show the light can figures on
[10:00] Speaker 3: various aircraft, what the lights are, what they do, what
[10:04] Speaker 3: their function is, so that people who were interested in
[10:09] Speaker 3: what they were looking at, beyond the conspiracies, the paranoia,
[10:12] Speaker 3: the suspicions, the panic, could actually say, oh, look those
[10:16] Speaker 3: are landing lights, or those are navigation lights or those
[10:19] Speaker 3: you know, there is a method to this that we
[10:22] Speaker 3: can track down. Now we've got people pointing laser pointers
[10:27] Speaker 3: at planes. What's that about, Brian?
[10:30] Speaker 2: I that's you know, that's always been a problem. Usually
[10:35] Speaker 2: fortunately it's usually just a little red laser pointers that
[10:38] Speaker 2: don't do a lot of damage. But you know that
[10:41] Speaker 2: there are these green lasers that you can get. My
[10:43] Speaker 2: daughter is an astronomer and she gives star talks, and
[10:45] Speaker 2: she's got this green laser that is very dangerous.
[10:49] Speaker 3: And so the rule is how Brian and forgiving the interruption.
[10:53] Speaker 3: But when you say it can do some damage, what
[10:54] Speaker 3: are you talking about?
[10:56] Speaker 2: It can blind you the red a red laser pointer.
[10:59] Speaker 2: In fact, anything sold as a laser pointer is low
[11:03] Speaker 2: enough wattage, low enough power that it wouldn't blind you
[11:06] Speaker 2: unless you know you stuck it straight in your eye
[11:08] Speaker 2: for a moment, but you can shine it around at
[11:10] Speaker 2: people in an auditorium and it's you're not going to
[11:12] Speaker 2: blind anyone with that. But these green lasers that are
[11:16] Speaker 2: as much as one hundred times the wattage can be
[11:19] Speaker 2: very very dangerous, and if you shine that in a
[11:21] Speaker 2: plane and it got into a pilot's eye, he could
[11:24] Speaker 2: be immediately blinded. So the rule with the green laser
[11:27] Speaker 2: pointer that she has is nobody ever touches it except her,
[11:30] Speaker 2: no exceptions period, not her professor, nobody else. And that's
[11:34] Speaker 2: the kind of safety protocol you have to have around
[11:36] Speaker 2: these very dangerous lasers. But you can buy them on
[11:39] Speaker 2: the internet, so they're out there. So that's another thing
[11:42] Speaker 2: that we could have a very serious problem with. It
[11:45] Speaker 2: doesn't have to be a pilot. If you're shooting it
[11:47] Speaker 2: at an airline or going by you know, you got
[11:49] Speaker 2: one hundred windows down the side, it could blind any
[11:51] Speaker 2: of the passengers.
[11:52] Speaker 3: Are we just stupid? I mean, are we just sheet Brian?
[11:55] Speaker 3: You know? I mean, I hate you's word like stupid,
[11:58] Speaker 3: but I just feel like it. People in groups just
[12:02] Speaker 3: do stupid shit all the time. It doesn't All we
[12:05] Speaker 3: need is a bright shiny object to distract us and
[12:08] Speaker 3: send us off into some sort of a frothing panic.
[12:13] Speaker 3: I mean, have you gotten into the psychology of any
[12:16] Speaker 3: of this stuff?
[12:17] Speaker 2: Oh a lot. I mean every little urban legend or
[12:20] Speaker 2: whatever it is that I'm talking about on my show.
[12:22] Speaker 2: That's always the most fascinating component is how and why
[12:26] Speaker 2: did this belief come to be a thing? And why
[12:28] Speaker 2: do people believe that? You know, they say, as you note,
[12:31] Speaker 2: a person is smart. People are stupid. And it's not
[12:36] Speaker 2: that anyone's stupid. They're human, and we all have You
[12:39] Speaker 2: and I we both have the same fallibilities that the
[12:43] Speaker 2: craziest Marjorie Taylor Greens are falling susceptible to. And it's
[12:48] Speaker 2: that our brains try to misinterpret things in the way
[12:52] Speaker 2: that makes sense to them and what they expect to
[12:54] Speaker 2: see and what they want to see. And that's just
[12:57] Speaker 2: part of being human. And the more experienced you are
[13:01] Speaker 2: at understanding that, I think, the better tools you have
[13:04] Speaker 2: to learn to separate when your brain is doing the
[13:07] Speaker 2: wrong thing. But I certainly find myself being wrong about
[13:11] Speaker 2: things all the time. So it's hard to fault other
[13:14] Speaker 2: people for doing the same thing, you know, particularly when
[13:18] Speaker 2: you've got this. It's I don't want to get political here,
[13:23] Speaker 2: I seriously don't, but go ahead. All of the congress
[13:26] Speaker 2: people that I've heard calling for these to be shot
[13:28] Speaker 2: down have been Republicans. Why is that? I don't know
[13:32] Speaker 2: it is there actually, I mean, they're no stupider than
[13:36] Speaker 2: Democratic congress people. I think that's, you know, a requirement
[13:39] Speaker 2: to be in Congress at all. It's I think it's
[13:42] Speaker 2: just that some of them actually have a narrative that
[13:45] Speaker 2: the Biden administration is not doing anything about this threat.
[13:48] Speaker 2: I think they're just using it as a little bit
[13:50] Speaker 2: of a little bit of political ammunition here to make
[13:53] Speaker 2: Biden look bad.
[13:55] Speaker 3: Sometimes I wonder, though, if we're so easily distracted, right,
[13:59] Speaker 3: So if they over here pursuing the bright shiny object
[14:02] Speaker 3: and they can get away with shenanigans over there, that's
[14:05] Speaker 3: a whole other conspiracy theory.
[14:07] Speaker 2: Oh, they get away with shenanigans regardless of where anyone's looking.
[14:10] Speaker 3: I guess that's true. I'm familiar with things like the
[14:14] Speaker 3: Blooney detection kit. But just in a nutshell, if people
[14:18] Speaker 3: get into this and they start to freak out, and
[14:20] Speaker 3: the headlines make them worry, and they think, what are
[14:22] Speaker 3: these lights in the sky. Is there some things there
[14:24] Speaker 3: like a toolkit for people to sort of bs proof
[14:28] Speaker 3: themselves in this weird age of misinformation.
[14:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've done a lot of episodes about that,
[14:35] Speaker 2: and people have written about it in books and other
[14:38] Speaker 2: podcasts have all given the same kind of sets of things.
[14:41] Speaker 2: Here's the logical fallacies and the cognitive biases you can
[14:45] Speaker 2: look for. But I don't know how useful that isn't
[14:48] Speaker 2: in the real world in the middle of your day,
[14:50] Speaker 2: I think it's probably better to just go on one
[14:53] Speaker 2: of the more reliable fact checking websites. There's a new
[14:57] Speaker 2: one I like a lot called verify This. There's Snopes,
[15:01] Speaker 2: BBC has one. There's a whole list of these that
[15:04] Speaker 2: have been found to be unbiased and pretty much fruity
[15:09] Speaker 2: darn good sources to go to. And when you go
[15:12] Speaker 2: somewhere like the drone thing, you can quickly find out that, no,
[15:16] Speaker 2: there's no evidence that there's any drones, and yes, it's
[15:19] Speaker 2: true that this congress person or that congress person called
[15:22] Speaker 2: for these evident commercial airlines to be shot down. So
[15:26] Speaker 2: there are ways that people kind of can kind of
[15:29] Speaker 2: quickly find out what's really going on. That do fit
[15:32] Speaker 2: into the normal lives of modern humans, and that's not
[15:36] Speaker 2: so much going through a checklist of logical fallacies and
[15:40] Speaker 2: cognitive biases. I think it's more useful just to go
[15:42] Speaker 2: to one of these websites really quick and just check
[15:44] Speaker 2: it out.
[15:45] Speaker 3: You know, all these denials sound like someone who is
[15:48] Speaker 3: in on the cover up? Brian, Are you sound like
[15:51] Speaker 3: someone who's in on the conspiracy? The more you debunk it,
[15:54] Speaker 3: the more it must be true.
[15:56] Speaker 2: If I had a nickel for every time I got
[15:58] Speaker 2: called there's a The UFO movie is on YouTube, movies
[16:05] Speaker 2: and TVs so people can make comments on it, and
[16:08] Speaker 2: it's so says oh my god. Although it's like eighty
[16:12] Speaker 2: percent thumbs up and twenty percent thumbs down, the comments
[16:16] Speaker 2: are ninety nine percent negative. The people who really this
[16:21] Speaker 2: gut under their crop are the ones who are really
[16:23] Speaker 2: upset enough to leave a comment, and almost all of
[16:26] Speaker 2: them are saying, obviously, the CIA paid this guy to
[16:29] Speaker 2: make this movie.
[16:33] Speaker 3: Man, I hope you're getting paid for all of this
[16:35] Speaker 3: sort of cleandestine work, all these yops.
[16:38] Speaker 2: Having a nickel for every one of those comments would
[16:40] Speaker 2: be more than the CIA ever could have paid.
[16:42] Speaker 3: It's a lose lose because if it's true, it's true,
[16:47] Speaker 3: and if you debunk it, it's still true. It's maddening.
[16:50] Speaker 3: And of course we've seen this far beyond the drone conspiracies,
[16:53] Speaker 3: but the deep state. You mentioned the QAnon stuff on
[16:56] Speaker 3: dear religions. You know, it's the more they're debunked, the
[16:59] Speaker 3: more you are simply in league with the enemy. It
[17:03] Speaker 3: is frustrating, but it's tiresome. Yet just to put a
[17:06] Speaker 3: punctuation mark on it, no reason to freak out. There
[17:10] Speaker 3: is nothing there, There is no there. There is that
[17:13] Speaker 3: what you're saying, Brian.
[17:14] Speaker 2: Yes, and it's not just me. The Homeland Security and
[17:20] Speaker 2: FBI put out a joint statement that says, there's one
[17:26] Speaker 2: sentence of it, one concluding sentence. Upon review of available imagery,
[17:30] Speaker 2: it appears that many of the reported sightings are actually
[17:32] Speaker 2: manned aircraft operating lawfully. There are no reported or confirmed
[17:38] Speaker 2: drone sightings in any restricted airspace. So I mean it's official.
[17:45] Speaker 2: You've got it from all the people who analyze these
[17:47] Speaker 2: things professionally for a living online, people like you and
[17:51] Speaker 2: I and many others. And you've got it from Homeland
[17:54] Speaker 2: Security and the FBI. And if you want to stick
[17:58] Speaker 2: to the position that, hey, everyone is lying to me
[18:01] Speaker 2: that I don't know that there's there's much else that
[18:04] Speaker 2: we can do for you.
[18:05] Speaker 3: And I have a confession before I let you go.
[18:09] Speaker 3: I mean this is probably if I had a drone,
[18:13] Speaker 3: I would be tempted to throw some extra Christmas lights
[18:15] Speaker 3: on it and stick like an alien head on the top,
[18:18] Speaker 3: you know, with lowing eyes, and literally just flight around
[18:21] Speaker 3: the neighborhood, just because I know how easily led people are,
[18:25] Speaker 3: and I would amuse myself with that. So I do
[18:28] Speaker 3: have to wonder if there might be one or two
[18:30] Speaker 3: people out theres who are doing the same, But maybe I.
[18:33] Speaker 2: Can guarantee there are. Now this has been this has
[18:35] Speaker 2: been so gone, so big, and it's so easy because
[18:39] Speaker 2: so many people have these little commercial drones you can
[18:41] Speaker 2: just buy. You know, I've got one. I could go
[18:44] Speaker 2: do that myself. In fact, maybe I will. I don't
[18:47] Speaker 2: know what the As far as I know, there's nothing
[18:49] Speaker 2: illegal about hanging lights on your drone, as long as
[18:52] Speaker 2: we follow all the other rules, which I don't now.
[18:55] Speaker 3: In my brain I'm already doing like weight ratios And
[18:58] Speaker 3: how much would it be able to care and how
[19:00] Speaker 3: much does an alien headway at all those other things. Brian,
[19:03] Speaker 3: You're awesome. I'm going to link to your UFO documentary
[19:06] Speaker 3: in the comments because it is relevant here, but I
[19:09] Speaker 3: wanted to check in quickly and just make sure that
[19:11] Speaker 3: we weren't being invaded by aliens, surveilled by the government,
[19:15] Speaker 3: or it wasn't the end of the world. So you're
[19:17] Speaker 3: saying you think we're okay.
[19:19] Speaker 2: I think you're okay for now. But do keep that
[19:21] Speaker 2: tinfoil handy in case you need it.
[19:23] Speaker 3: Hian Dunning, thanks for talking to me.
[19:26] Speaker 2: Thank you, sir.
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