# Paul Murray Live | 21 October

An episode of [Paul Murray Live](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/376966263), 21 Oct 2026, 49 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/be3abd48-25e5-45a6-aede-ac2a00524a12/8d692c8f-028d-4a6a-a915-b4ea00c53a88/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=95971714-8fe6-4855-b1fe-ac2a00524a12

PM dodges questions about Helen Haines 'dirt file', hard choices await the RBA as inflation and employment worsen. Plus, Daniel Mulino concedes he knew of the ATO's credit card ban plans in July. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: This is Paul Murray Live. Thank you, Shari. Tonight we
[0:08] Speaker 1: are going to talk about the issue that is rarely
[0:11] Speaker 1: talked about in Australia and I think is necessary to
[0:14] Speaker 1: talk about when we are talking about the difficulties that
[0:19] Speaker 1: exist in our community. Of course, right now as a
[0:21] Speaker 1: result in and around the Helen Haynes situation, we've heard
[0:24] Speaker 1: about the need for security and the need for social
[0:26] Speaker 1: media and the need for everything else. Well, there's a
[0:28] Speaker 1: need for something even bigger than all of that. I
[0:30] Speaker 1: will talk about that. because it is a conversation that
[0:33] Speaker 1: adults can have and one that we must have. Sadly,
[0:38] Speaker 1: as you've heard by now, the news is that Helen
[0:40] Speaker 1: Haynes has lost her second leg. The first was amputated
[0:44] Speaker 1: upon her arrival very shortly after in Melbourne a couple
[0:48] Speaker 1: of nights ago. It was confirmed by her husband today.
[0:52] Speaker 1: And he spoke beautifully on her behalf, the family's behalf,
[0:56] Speaker 1: and I think everyone who is sending nothing but strength
[0:59] Speaker 1: and love to the member for Indi.
[1:01] Speaker 2: Helen's left leg was amputated on Monday. We had been
[1:06] Speaker 2: hoping that her right leg would be saved, but as
[1:09] Speaker 2: of this afternoon, this morning, the surgeons had to also
[1:12] Speaker 2: remove her right leg. But the good news in all
[1:18] Speaker 2: this is Helen is alive and she's stable.
[1:23] Speaker 1: I really liked when Phil was talking about her love
[1:25] Speaker 1: of the garden. Very normal stuff, right? Normal mum, normal grandparent,
[1:30] Speaker 1: all the rest of it, right? Because, of course, Their
[1:32] Speaker 1: situation is beyond politics and, of course, nothing but strength
[1:36] Speaker 1: and love. Now, some people have been sending flowers either
[1:38] Speaker 1: to the office or have been sending them to the
[1:41] Speaker 1: hospital that she's in. They have suggested that if you'd
[1:43] Speaker 1: like to give something in her name, if you want
[1:45] Speaker 1: to pay it forward in some way, Save the Children
[1:48] Speaker 1: is the foundation that she would like people to support.
[1:54] Speaker 1: But again, on a theory tonight that I'm not going
[1:56] Speaker 1: to hold back, not because I am.
[1:59] Speaker 1: Anything other than wanting to tell you the truth as
[2:01] Speaker 1: it actually is. And sometimes the hardest time to tell
[2:04] Speaker 1: the truth is at a time when some of the
[2:06] Speaker 1: most powerful people are trying to make you look the
[2:09] Speaker 1: other way. Yes, I'm talking about the Prime Minister. Yes,
[2:12] Speaker 1: I'm talking about the Prime Minister and specific choices that
[2:15] Speaker 1: he has made in the past couple of days. Now,
[2:18] Speaker 1: of course, after all of this took place on Monday,
[2:22] Speaker 1: we were all shocked together to learn what had happened
[2:25] Speaker 1: at 3.30 in the afternoon. The Prime Minister, of course,
[2:29] Speaker 1: was there giving a press conference as soon as he
[2:34] Speaker 1: possibly could. OK, fine, fair enough, as we expect. Information
[2:38] Speaker 1: of something as shocking as all of this, that comes
[2:40] Speaker 1: from the Prime Minister. Then there was the interview that
[2:42] Speaker 1: he immediately did following that press conference where he went
[2:44] Speaker 1: over to the ABC studio. OK, again, this was all
[2:49] Speaker 1: shocking news at the time. The Prime Minister then decided
[2:52] Speaker 1: to do the round of all of the breakfast television shows.
[2:57] Speaker 1: On Tuesday, he did Sunrise. He did the Today Show.
[3:02] Speaker 1: He did News 24. He also did the ABC Breakfast Show.
[3:07] Speaker 1: And again, all of this is about the information that
[3:10] Speaker 1: needs to be handed on. And again, he didn't choose
[3:13] Speaker 1: one media organisation. He did many. And then there was
[3:16] Speaker 1: this moment that I've got to say I didn't talk
[3:18] Speaker 1: about at the time, but I will mention now, which
[3:20] Speaker 1: was to me unnecessary. Why were cameras there when there
[3:24] Speaker 1: was a meeting of the Prime Minister and the Victorian Premier? Again,
[3:28] Speaker 1: we're not talking about a natural disaster situation that is unfolding.
[3:31] Speaker 1: We are talking about a situation that is of vital importance,
[3:36] Speaker 1: and yes, it is the now, I have to say,
[3:38] Speaker 1: alleged because of a 43-year-old man being charged, very much
[3:43] Speaker 1: a situation that even the AFP and the Victoria Police
[3:46] Speaker 1: were saying was a singular moment. Now, again, there is
[3:50] Speaker 1: a very fine line for politicians that if they hold back,
[3:55] Speaker 1: then people get accused, they get accused of not turning up.
[3:58] Speaker 1: But then you've got to be careful about how far
[4:00] Speaker 1: you lean in. And as you know, at any opportunity,
[4:05] Speaker 1: the Prime Minister has been trying to say that this
[4:08] Speaker 1: is a moment, this is a red line, this is
[4:10] Speaker 1: the opportunity for a reordering of our thoughts and a
[4:13] Speaker 1: reordering of our politics.
[4:16] Speaker 3: Helen Haynes is someone who is widely respected because she
[4:21] Speaker 3: is so respectful. She's very well regarded. across the board.
[4:26] Speaker 3: She treats people with respect. She's well regarded in the Parliament.
[4:29] Speaker 3: She's someone who is deeply embedded in her community there
[4:33] Speaker 3: in the northern part of Victoria.
[4:36] Speaker 1: Be compassionate.
[4:41] Speaker 3: Be the sort of person who she is.
[4:46] Speaker 1: But one interview too many. Why? Because the Prime Minister
[4:50] Speaker 1: was no longer in charge of... how the media would
[4:53] Speaker 1: react to his reaction to the events that have shocked
[4:57] Speaker 1: us all this week. It was an interview that he
[5:00] Speaker 1: did here on News 24. He did so in an
[5:02] Speaker 1: interview with my colleague and friend Kieran Gilbert. Now, there
[5:06] Speaker 1: is a story that has been floating for a couple
[5:08] Speaker 1: of days now. Others have mentioned it. I'm going to
[5:10] Speaker 1: give it a lot more detail here. And again, my
[5:13] Speaker 1: mate Peter Van Onselen writing in the Daily Mail, well,
[5:17] Speaker 1: he again did the most difficult thing, which is to
[5:21] Speaker 1: tell the truth... when the most powerful are trying to
[5:24] Speaker 1: say something else. The headline read, how Albanese's office shopped
[5:29] Speaker 1: around a baseless dirt sheet about Helen Haynes just weeks
[5:33] Speaker 1: ago before the Prime Minister praised her integrity and called
[5:36] Speaker 1: to lower the temperature in politics. Put simply, the Prime
[5:40] Speaker 1: Minister's words this week have not matched the actions of
[5:45] Speaker 1: his office. Let's give the Prime Minister a modicum of
[5:47] Speaker 1: credit here. He's not in charge of what press secretary
[5:51] Speaker 1: or his... Chief of Staff is doing, maybe that's giving
[5:54] Speaker 1: him too much credit, but you understand he has an
[5:58] Speaker 1: arm's length position here. And why was the Prime Minister's
[6:03] Speaker 1: office shopping around a dirt sheet as a way of
[6:06] Speaker 1: trying to muddy up the reputation of Helen Haynes? It's
[6:10] Speaker 1: because she was the front and centre politician who was
[6:14] Speaker 1: calling out the government in recent weeks, about a hundreds
[6:20] Speaker 1: of millions of dollars slush fund that made sports rorts
[6:25] Speaker 1: look like tiddlywinks. She raised it on the ABC, here
[6:31] Speaker 1: on News 24, on this program and in the parliament itself.
[6:36] Speaker 1: The report, may I remind you, was from the Centre
[6:39] Speaker 1: for Public Integrity. This was a group put together of
[6:42] Speaker 1: non-partisan people, including judges, lawyers, a whole bunch of people
[6:46] Speaker 1: who call out things like a rort. Why do we
[6:51] Speaker 1: say it's a rort? Because the Labor Party does not
[6:53] Speaker 1: have control of this amount of seats in the Parliament.
[6:58] Speaker 1: They have a majority, but they don't have all. This
[7:01] Speaker 1: was more than half a billion dollars that was put
[7:03] Speaker 1: aside by the government to pay for the things the
[7:06] Speaker 1: government invited people to apply for. So it wasn't... if
[7:12] Speaker 1: you've got a request, put your hand up and we'll
[7:14] Speaker 1: work out which one is the good one. No, they picked,
[7:17] Speaker 1: essentially they said, hey, look, I know you've got this thing.
[7:20] Speaker 1: Can you do us a favour? Can you send a
[7:21] Speaker 1: letter saying we need some money for our pool and
[7:24] Speaker 1: then we'll give it to you? They spent $ 409 million
[7:27] Speaker 1: in Labor seats or ones they thought they could win,
[7:30] Speaker 1: $ 126 million in coalition seats and $ 23 million everywhere else.
[7:36] Speaker 1: At the time, it was referred to by the Centre
[7:38] Speaker 1: for Public Integrity as essentially a misuse of public money,
[7:42] Speaker 1: pork barrelling at its very worst.
[7:44] Speaker 4: Why?
[7:45] Speaker 1: Because it was a bucket of cash that was not
[7:48] Speaker 1: open to all to apply for. Instead, you were, I repeat,
[7:53] Speaker 1: invited to apply for it. So the dirt sheet was
[7:57] Speaker 1: sent out because Helen Haynes was making points like this,
[8:02] Speaker 1: as she did here a few weeks ago.
[8:05] Speaker 5: I asked the minister responsible in question time that precise question,
[8:09] Speaker 5: how do you get an invitation? Quite clearly and proudly
[8:13] Speaker 5: he said, well, you know, this is fulfilling our election commitments,
[8:17] Speaker 5: which really in my mind, Paul, is a euphemism for
[8:21] Speaker 5: this is about us rolling out our pork barrel. Fundamentally,
[8:25] Speaker 5: we have to understand this money does not belong to
[8:28] Speaker 5: the political classes. It does not belong to a political party.
[8:33] Speaker 5: This is taxpayer money.
[8:35] Speaker 1: So because she used her standing, her access to the
[8:39] Speaker 1: media and her rare moment of time being able to
[8:43] Speaker 1: ask the Prime Minister the question the Prime Minister didn't
[8:45] Speaker 1: want to engage in, didn't want to talk about, said
[8:47] Speaker 1: was nothing to see here, they were running around with
[8:52] Speaker 1: a series of questions. for Helen Haynes to answer. All
[8:56] Speaker 1: of it was to try to muddy the waters so
[8:58] Speaker 1: either reporters stopped talking to her about this or they
[9:01] Speaker 1: would distract from her criticism about this.
[9:06] Speaker 6: Can I just say, I had sports clubs in my
[9:09] Speaker 6: electorate who lost money, had money that they had been
[9:12] Speaker 6: fairly awarded.
[9:13] Speaker 1: Through the sports.
[9:14] Speaker 6: Programs administered by the previous Liberal National Government, had that
[9:18] Speaker 6: money ripped away from them and given to clubs in
[9:21] Speaker 6: Liberal electorates.
[9:22] Speaker 3: That wasn't so much a question as a smear.
[9:25] Speaker 7: A pushback on all of this nonsense that somehow the
[9:28] Speaker 7: government has not.
[9:29] Speaker 1: Followed the rules and not followed the law, because we have.
[9:32] Speaker 8: We've restored integrity to grants administration.
[9:36] Speaker 1: Garbage. Now, when all of this was first made public,
[9:40] Speaker 1: was on the 7.30 program on the ABC... And a
[9:43] Speaker 1: clear example of, well, why would you fund one over
[9:46] Speaker 1: the other, was the Rutherglen Golf Club, which is in
[9:51] Speaker 1: the electorate of Indi in far northern Victoria. This is
[9:54] Speaker 1: a joint that apparently has an awful lot of asbestos,
[9:56] Speaker 1: and as soon as you start changing one wall, it's
[9:58] Speaker 1: going to expose a whole bunch of problems. They, of course,
[10:00] Speaker 1: got zero duck egg money because they weren't invited to
[10:04] Speaker 1: apply for the grant that the Labor Party would tick
[10:07] Speaker 1: off on. Instead, as you know, the Marrickville Golf Club
[10:10] Speaker 1: gets $ 6 million for its renovations. Now, remember... Bridget McKenzie,
[10:17] Speaker 1: she had to hand in a gun and badge. Why?
[10:19] Speaker 1: Because literally she had membership to a gun club that
[10:22] Speaker 1: ended up getting some of the money in the sports
[10:24] Speaker 1: wards program from a few years ago. The sheer numbers
[10:29] Speaker 1: involved in all of this, and I've been telling you
[10:30] Speaker 1: about it for weeks, are way bigger than anything that
[10:33] Speaker 1: was happening in the previous government. And remember, the Prime
[10:37] Speaker 1: Minister didn't declare that he had an honorary membership. Now,
[10:41] Speaker 1: he says, come on, it was only five bucks. It's
[10:43] Speaker 1: a small amount. It doesn't matter. Well, hang on. Integrity
[10:45] Speaker 1: matters or it doesn't. And this bloke was able to
[10:48] Speaker 1: come to office on a whole bunch of pointing at
[10:50] Speaker 1: the other people and demanding that everything had to change
[10:52] Speaker 1: and everything had to be more transparent and he was
[10:54] Speaker 1: going to be more transparent. Yeah, he also threw in
[10:56] Speaker 1: about the cost of living. Well, none of that's happened. Instead,
[10:58] Speaker 1: it was just raw, hard, brutal politics that was able
[11:04] Speaker 1: to unseat his political opponents and then he became the government.
[11:09] Speaker 1: This is a guy who will never admit a mistake
[11:11] Speaker 1: because if you admit one mistake, then it's the beginning
[11:14] Speaker 1: of the end because eventually... there'll be a mistake that
[11:17] Speaker 1: is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Now, again,
[11:20] Speaker 1: some may say this is inappropriate, this is too much.
[11:23] Speaker 1: Why now? Because the hardest time to make points like
[11:27] Speaker 1: this is when the most powerful are trying to say,
[11:30] Speaker 1: look over there. Hence why, later in this program, we're
[11:34] Speaker 1: going to talk about the biggest issue, I think, that
[11:37] Speaker 1: Australia is not dealing with that links so many major
[11:41] Speaker 1: news stories together.
[11:45] Speaker 9: Now.
[11:46] Speaker 1: The further reporting from Peter Van Onselen today was that
[11:49] Speaker 1: it wasn't just a rumour, he had the receipts. Now,
[11:53] Speaker 1: after the Prime Minister has spent the week talking up
[11:56] Speaker 1: Helen Haynes, now that she has been the victim of
[12:01] Speaker 1: this atrocity, the reality, though, is here is the dirt sheet.
[12:06] Speaker 1: Pages and pages and pages... put together by the Prime
[12:09] Speaker 1: Minister's office, that were all about questions to answer. So
[12:13] Speaker 1: that when Helen Haynes kept making the dead obvious point
[12:17] Speaker 1: about the rort, that reporters would either doubt what she
[12:21] Speaker 1: was saying or push back and force her back onto
[12:24] Speaker 1: the defensive. Three examples. Money that was given to the
[12:29] Speaker 1: Benalla Art Gallery. This is directly from the dirt sheet.
[12:34] Speaker 1: Given she has pushed for the funding of this project,
[12:36] Speaker 1: has the member for Indi ever visited it? been a
[12:39] Speaker 1: member of, donated to, or have any personal or professional
[12:42] Speaker 1: connection with any of the employees of the board of
[12:45] Speaker 1: the Benalla Art Gallery? Had these interests been declared before
[12:51] Speaker 1: she requested significant funding? Oh, questions to answer, questions to answer. Slurs. Slurs.
[12:58] Speaker 1: And you see this stuff, you see this stuff all
[13:00] Speaker 1: the time of the political opponents of the Prime Minister
[13:02] Speaker 1: and the Labor Party. As soon as the heat's on them,
[13:05] Speaker 1: they turn around and this is the game they play back.
[13:07] Speaker 1: Claim number two. 28,000, sorry, 28, yes, there was a
[13:12] Speaker 1: request for $ 28 million for the Mount Bulla Ski Resort. Well,
[13:17] Speaker 1: they found a smoking gun here. The corruption of Helen Haynes, apparently,
[13:21] Speaker 1: because she accepted a couple of lift passes to go
[13:25] Speaker 1: to the Mount Bulla Ski Resort. What has been declared
[13:29] Speaker 1: is that in July 2022, the member for Indi was
[13:32] Speaker 1: gifted lift passes at Mount Bulla Ski Resort for her
[13:35] Speaker 1: and her spouse. In 2025, the member has asked the
[13:38] Speaker 1: Treasurer to spend a combined $ 28. 5 million on two projects
[13:43] Speaker 1: to meet the needs of the growing visitor market in
[13:45] Speaker 1: the Victorian Business Alpine Resort. Oh, oh, see what's going
[13:49] Speaker 1: on here? Now, of course, the Prime Minister tells us
[13:54] Speaker 1: that when he has a membership to the golf club,
[13:56] Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. But somebody working for the Prime Minister
[13:59] Speaker 1: tried to say that because Helen Haynes had gone on
[14:01] Speaker 1: a lift pass, that somehow that was the smoking gun.
[14:06] Speaker 10: Hear.
[14:07] Speaker 1: We hear how often the transport minister essentially gets lifetime
[14:11] Speaker 1: status with Qantas. Oh, no, it's nothing to do. It
[14:14] Speaker 1: won't affect their decision-making. Well, hang on. If it's good
[14:17] Speaker 1: enough for the dirt unit, why not the accountability for you?
[14:19] Speaker 1: Third example. This was a $ 10 million request for the
[14:26] Speaker 1: Benalla Indoor Recreation Centre. Given she has pushed for funding
[14:31] Speaker 1: for this project, has the member for Indi ever visited,
[14:33] Speaker 1: been a member of, played with, trained with, watched games,
[14:36] Speaker 1: donated to, been beneficiaries of any club, jerseys or other equipment,
[14:42] Speaker 1: or has any other personal or professional connection with any
[14:46] Speaker 1: of the teams that use the Benalla Indoor Recreation Centre?
[14:49] Speaker 1: The All Blacks Football Club, the Bushrangers Cricket Club, the
[14:51] Speaker 1: Benalla Gymnastics Club, the Squash Club, the Lawn Tennis Association,
[14:55] Speaker 1: the badminton, the basketball. Please.
[14:57] Speaker 10: Please.
[14:58] Speaker 1: Please. My point is this. While the Prime Minister says, hey,
[15:03] Speaker 1: vote for me and we'll lower the temperature, they've.
[15:07] Speaker 8: Kept it as loud as ever.
[15:09] Speaker 1: Remember what they inferred about the previous government, that it
[15:12] Speaker 1: looked the other way when an alleged sexual assault had
[15:17] Speaker 1: taken place inside the Federal Parliament. Remember... If you don't
[15:23] Speaker 1: go to the COP international climate meetings, then you don't
[15:25] Speaker 1: care about climate change. He becomes a Prime Minister and
[15:28] Speaker 1: he misses half of the ones that have been held
[15:30] Speaker 1: since he's there. This mob, they will never answer a question.
[15:35] Speaker 1: This mob is at least a quarter worse, never answering
[15:38] Speaker 1: questions in the Senate, handing back pieces of paper that
[15:41] Speaker 1: have got black line, black line, black line. Worst of all,
[15:44] Speaker 1: in my view, vote for us because cost of living
[15:46] Speaker 1: will be better under a Labor government. All of it worse,
[15:49] Speaker 1: 16 interest rate rises. But I just have to draw
[15:54] Speaker 1: the line. I have to draw the line at the
[15:56] Speaker 1: man who has made many appearances in the media today, yes,
[16:01] Speaker 1: accurately as the leader of the country, dealing with a
[16:04] Speaker 1: shocking moment for the nation, but, frankly, laying it on
[16:08] Speaker 1: a little too thick with a trowel about how Helen Haynes'
[16:13] Speaker 1: integrity is above reproach, except his office, his office... was
[16:18] Speaker 1: trying to give her the metaphorical black eye because she
[16:21] Speaker 1: was effective at calling him out. Well done to KG
[16:26] Speaker 1: for the question.
[16:28] Speaker 9: On the tone of debate, were you aware or give
[16:30] Speaker 9: approval to your office to distribute to the press gallery
[16:33] Speaker 9: information about Helen Haynes, about grants that she'd sought after
[16:39] Speaker 9: she criticised you over the $ 6 million Marrickville grant?
[16:45] Speaker 1: Straight, right? Prime Minister, dodge.
[16:49] Speaker 3: Helen Haynes is a good local member. She put forward
[16:53] Speaker 3: applications like other members do for grants. And that's what
[16:58] Speaker 3: good local members do. And Helen Haynes is a very
[17:01] Speaker 3: strong advocate for her community.
[17:06] Speaker 1: Come on. Remember the examples, one, two, three? Has she ever?
[17:10] Speaker 1: Will she ever? Did she know someone? All inferences that
[17:12] Speaker 1: somebody was getting money for being a mate. While, of course,
[17:16] Speaker 1: the Prime Minister was able to say, no, there's no
[17:19] Speaker 1: money for my mates, even though I've got a membership,
[17:21] Speaker 1: but I haven't declared what the membership is. You talk
[17:24] Speaker 1: about faith in politics. People have had enough of one
[17:27] Speaker 1: rule for one, one rule for another. The standards that
[17:30] Speaker 1: were set in opposition are being ignored in government and
[17:33] Speaker 1: Australians cannot and will not cop it any longer. This
[17:38] Speaker 1: week has been difficult. This week has been hard. And
[17:41] Speaker 1: I know that there will be consequences for me saying
[17:43] Speaker 1: what I have said and the way that I have
[17:44] Speaker 1: said it at the time that I have said it.
[17:46] Speaker 1: But in my view, it is just too important to
[17:49] Speaker 1: not call them out. Well done to Peter Van Onselen
[17:50] Speaker 1: for not just the reporting, but showing the receipts. Well
[17:53] Speaker 1: done to Kieran Gilbert for asking the questions. And as
[17:55] Speaker 1: for the Prime Minister, you can be the judge. Now,
[18:01] Speaker 1: another thing I want to mention here, and again, I'm
[18:03] Speaker 1: in one of those moods and it's one of those nights, right,
[18:05] Speaker 1: where we're going to go there. There are moments where
[18:09] Speaker 1: you have to. Go there. And we're going to. As
[18:12] Speaker 1: you know, since what happened to Helen Haynes happened at
[18:15] Speaker 1: the start of the week, there has been a whole
[18:17] Speaker 1: bunch of people who have suggested what the potential problems
[18:20] Speaker 1: are in our society that can lead to moments like this. Now,
[18:24] Speaker 1: of course, none of this is proven. None of this
[18:25] Speaker 1: is known. Why? We're only very early in the process. Charges,
[18:29] Speaker 1: of course, in the past 24 hours. That process has
[18:31] Speaker 1: a very, very long way to go. But you've heard
[18:33] Speaker 1: everyone all week about what this moment should lead us
[18:37] Speaker 1: to do... for the temperature to be turned down.
[18:42] Speaker 11: When we see a woman like Helen Haynes target, I
[18:44] Speaker 11: think it speaks to a bigger issue of male violence
[18:46] Speaker 11: against women in Australia.
[18:47] Speaker 10: I hope this doesn't deter women from considering public life.
[18:51] Speaker 12: With the industrial scale of social media, potentially there are
[18:56] Speaker 12: more people being reached with very emotive, negative messages. We've
[19:00] Speaker 12: really got to ask the bigger question about what is
[19:03] Speaker 12: happening on social media platforms. at the moment and whether
[19:07] Speaker 12: or not that is actually compatible with a thriving democracy.
[19:10] Speaker 11: I will talk to people who are pulling crazy conspiracy
[19:14] Speaker 11: theories about me offline and then raising them with me
[19:17] Speaker 11: in public as fact.
[19:18] Speaker 13: A lot of our communities, and particularly post-COVID, when we
[19:20] Speaker 13: went into our own world, have a curated form of information.
[19:24] Speaker 13: Sometimes it's misinformation. Sometimes it's a deliberate disinformation. But we
[19:28] Speaker 13: can curate our news services and our source of what
[19:31] Speaker 13: we think is truth.
[19:34] Speaker 1: But let's be honest. There's one thing that we're not
[19:36] Speaker 1: talking about. Now, obviously, I can't speak specifically about this situation.
[19:40] Speaker 1: Matters are before the court. But there is a bigger issue,
[19:42] Speaker 1: and you can think about a whole bunch of big
[19:43] Speaker 1: stories over the past little while, that have injured people
[19:46] Speaker 1: and have taken life. It's mental health. We've got to
[19:50] Speaker 1: talk about it. It's difficult. It's uncomfortable. But did you
[19:54] Speaker 1: know that nearly half of all young Australians are experiencing
[19:58] Speaker 1: high levels of psychological distress? Now, again, not everyone who's
[20:01] Speaker 1: having any mental health issues or distress is going to
[20:04] Speaker 1: lead to violence. I'm not suggesting that. New data is
[20:09] Speaker 1: showing that more Australians are reaching out for help than
[20:11] Speaker 1: ever before. Severe mental disorders are surging amongst young people.
[20:18] Speaker 1: In fact, according to the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare,
[20:22] Speaker 1: in 2007, the number of 12 to 24-year-olds who were
[20:27] Speaker 1: experiencing mental health disorders was between 25 and 30%. That's
[20:31] Speaker 1: the light blue. The general population was, to the left,
[20:35] Speaker 1: a much lower number. Watch how that's changed from basically 25%
[20:40] Speaker 1: to almost 40%. And that was 2007 to the latest
[20:47] Speaker 1: numbers we have here, which is 2021. Story after story
[20:53] Speaker 1: after story tells us that we never really confront what's
[20:56] Speaker 1: going on in Australia when it comes to mental health,
[21:00] Speaker 1: about how we can take care of people who are
[21:02] Speaker 1: a harm to themselves, and then how we deal with
[21:04] Speaker 1: people who can potentially or end up being a harm
[21:06] Speaker 1: to other people. All of that has to be dealt with.
[21:09] Speaker 1: It's difficult, it's uncomfortable, but we're adults and we'll have
[21:11] Speaker 1: that conversation tonight. Now, Ben Carroll, of course, the Victorian Premier,
[21:17] Speaker 1: as we start to edge our way towards the Victorian election, well,
[21:20] Speaker 1: he's got himself into a small bit of bother. And
[21:23] Speaker 1: when it comes to an own goal, this would be
[21:25] Speaker 1: one heck of an own goal. You may have heard
[21:27] Speaker 1: the story, but if not, it's worth laughing again because,
[21:30] Speaker 1: of course, he drove off without paying for petrol, apparently.
[21:36] Speaker 1: He offered this as a reason why today.
[21:39] Speaker 10: I have paid....
[21:43] Speaker 7: It shows that politicians are human beings, and.
[21:47] Speaker 8: Even premiers make mistakes.
[21:49] Speaker 14: Monday was a tough day for a lot of reasons,
[21:52] Speaker 14: and I got home and I had a busy night
[21:55] Speaker 14: on the phone, and my wife and I.
[21:57] Speaker 5: Had a discussion who was going to return.
[22:01] Speaker 8: Friend's pencil case. I said, I'll do it and I'll
[22:03] Speaker 8: get petrol.
[22:04] Speaker 3: And then I found out the following day I didn't
[22:07] Speaker 3: pay for the petrol.
[22:09] Speaker 2: That has since been rectified.
[22:12] Speaker 5: But I have been contacted, Chip, by the former.
[22:14] Speaker 12: Deputy Premier, John Twaites, who's told me, don't worry, Ben,
[22:18] Speaker 12: I didn't pay for the petrol.
[22:19] Speaker 8: And I also drove off with the nozzle in the car.
[22:23] Speaker 9: The petrol bows a bit.
[22:24] Speaker 5: But that made me feel a lot better.
[22:26] Speaker 9: Thanks to John Twaites.
[22:28] Speaker 1: Now, often I can rip into the Liberal Party for
[22:30] Speaker 1: being a bit slow when it comes to making the
[22:32] Speaker 1: most of these moments. Well, that does not apply to
[22:34] Speaker 1: the Victorian Liberal Party because this is an ad that
[22:36] Speaker 1: is appearing at service stations all over Victoria tonight. Very clever.
[22:41] Speaker 1: Very well done. Jess Wilson will be a guest on
[22:43] Speaker 1: our program a bit later tonight. And we have got
[22:45] Speaker 1: a pub test coming up with her Monday, the 9th
[22:48] Speaker 1: of November. It'll be in suburban Melbourne if you would
[22:50] Speaker 1: like to join us. Tickets are free, but you've got
[22:52] Speaker 1: to prove that you're a viewer of this show. No
[22:54] Speaker 1: mystery question. Just send me an email to pubtest at news24. com. au,
[22:58] Speaker 1: pubtest at news24. com. au. Include the question you want to ask
[23:03] Speaker 1: Jess Wilson, your name, and a way that we can
[23:05] Speaker 1: get in touch with you. So let's have the adult
[23:08] Speaker 1: conversation that we have to have that links so many
[23:11] Speaker 1: issues in Australia. A man who I admire very much
[23:14] Speaker 1: is Professor Ian Hickey with the Brain and Mind Centre,
[23:17] Speaker 1: with deep connections to the University of Sydney but to
[23:20] Speaker 1: the mental health community around the country, key when it
[23:22] Speaker 1: comes to headspace and an absolute straight talker. Professor? Professor?
[23:26] Speaker 1: Thank you for coming down to the shallow end of
[23:28] Speaker 1: the pool. Thanks, Paul. Appreciate you being here. Now, again,
[23:31] Speaker 1: we can't talk about the specifics in and around the
[23:33] Speaker 1: Helen Haynes moment. It is now before the courts. But
[23:37] Speaker 1: I just was thinking today, and while everyone's had their
[23:39] Speaker 1: hot takes about we must do more of this and
[23:41] Speaker 1: must do less of that, and it's true to a bit,
[23:44] Speaker 1: it's not true to others, and it's opportunistic and all
[23:46] Speaker 1: the rest. But one thing we just never talk about,
[23:48] Speaker 1: which is, is our mental health system OK? How do
[23:50] Speaker 1: we need to improve it? How do we need to engage?
[23:53] Speaker 1: Is that a conversation that we have to have?
[23:55] Speaker 7: It's a conversation we must have. I'm glad you put
[23:57] Speaker 7: it that way. There have, unfortunately, around the country been
[24:00] Speaker 7: a string of events in recent times that have been
[24:03] Speaker 7: challenging for everyone. If we don't deal with it properly,
[24:06] Speaker 7: then fear, concern, we go backwards on stigma, on denial.
[24:11] Speaker 8: You've just pointed out very much the processes.
[24:14] Speaker 7: For young people at the moment, which are really worrying
[24:17] Speaker 7: in terms of the wider social factors, long-term economic and
[24:20] Speaker 7: social factors, impacts on people's health. but impacts on us
[24:23] Speaker 7: as a community. What we have now is awareness. What
[24:27] Speaker 7: we don't really have is effective action. So we've really
[24:31] Speaker 7: struggled to lift our health services, but not just health,
[24:34] Speaker 7: social services, housing, community support, all the other things you
[24:38] Speaker 7: need to wrap around so that people who are in trouble,
[24:41] Speaker 7: people who are struggling, they don't get isolated, things don't
[24:45] Speaker 7: just get worse. So for me, the great tragedy in
[24:46] Speaker 7: my life is that we know when people are effectively treated,
[24:50] Speaker 7: living community, contained with their families, they're known, people generally well,
[24:54] Speaker 7: and a threat to nobody.
[24:56] Speaker 8: Yeah.
[24:56] Speaker 1: I mean, my thing is that a lot of people
[24:58] Speaker 1: that are watching, and certainly myself, right, which is, you know,
[25:00] Speaker 1: for all the bitching and moaning about tax, I'm fine
[25:03] Speaker 1: for tax to be spent if it's for people like
[25:05] Speaker 1: yourself to put together a system to take care of
[25:07] Speaker 1: the people who end up falling on the wrong side
[25:10] Speaker 1: of it, right? And I'm thinking about how many cases
[25:13] Speaker 1: where somebody with a profound issue ends up causing harm
[25:17] Speaker 1: to somebody else or they stop taking their meds or
[25:19] Speaker 1: they fall away from the system, all of that stuff.
[25:22] Speaker 1: Is there anywhere in the world that does it better,
[25:25] Speaker 1: that has a model that you think, you know what, okay,
[25:28] Speaker 1: I know it's cost, but you know what, they really
[25:30] Speaker 1: nail it. Let's learn from them. Is there anyone close
[25:33] Speaker 1: to it?
[25:33] Speaker 8: No one's got it really fixed.
[25:35] Speaker 7: I mean, in a sense, what's happened, of course, over
[25:37] Speaker 7: the course of history and the course of health all
[25:39] Speaker 7: around the world and in developing countries is People have
[25:42] Speaker 7: moved to do more. But you said the critical word
[25:44] Speaker 7: there about three times.
[25:45] Speaker 8: I don't know if you know it.
[25:46] Speaker 1: System.
[25:47] Speaker 3: Yes.
[25:47] Speaker 7: Governments love individual announcements of programs. A new clinic, a
[25:51] Speaker 7: new thing, a shiny new thing. This week I've done something.
[25:54] Speaker 7: I've done something. I spend most of my life trying
[25:56] Speaker 7: to model systems.
[25:58] Speaker 8: Like it's complex.
[25:59] Speaker 7: Like if you think about a complex engineering process or
[26:01] Speaker 7: a complex airport process, you don't just do one thing
[26:05] Speaker 7: and think you've got a system. And the system here
[26:07] Speaker 7: is more complex because you're not just talking healthcare, you
[26:10] Speaker 7: are talking housing, you are talking community support, you're talking
[26:14] Speaker 7: support in schools, And.
[26:15] Speaker 8: You're talking about communities saying, hey, this is me. This
[26:18] Speaker 8: is my brother. This is my son. This is my family.
[26:20] Speaker 7: This is someone I care about where things are going
[26:23] Speaker 7: wrong and we've got to stay connected and we have
[26:26] Speaker 7: to respond because we basically are losing more people. People
[26:29] Speaker 7: don't know where they are. As I travel around the country,
[26:32] Speaker 7: I see more people living on the streets. I see
[26:34] Speaker 7: more young men in cars. We've seen up and down
[26:37] Speaker 7: the eastern seaboard people disconnected. They were getting treatment in
[26:40] Speaker 7: one part of the country or help, but they got disconnected.
[26:43] Speaker 7: They stopped treatment, got disconnected from family, from services, no
[26:46] Speaker 7: fixed address. You know, that's where the biggest problems then happen.
[26:51] Speaker 7: And we've seen, unfortunately, most of our states retreat from
[26:54] Speaker 7: those kinds of services over the expense. We see a
[26:57] Speaker 7: lot of disputation between governments over housing, social support. But really,
[27:02] Speaker 7: you know, as communities in Australia, we talk about how
[27:04] Speaker 7: good we are as communities.
[27:07] Speaker 1: Are we?
[27:07] Speaker 7: We talk a lot about social cohesion, mateship. Those youth
[27:11] Speaker 7: figures you talked about, I've got a lot of interest
[27:12] Speaker 7: in this, you know, people talk a lot about social media,
[27:14] Speaker 7: a lot of it. I would posit, and a lot
[27:17] Speaker 7: of evidence to support the idea, it's social cohesion. Do
[27:20] Speaker 7: I know who you are?
[27:21] Speaker 8: Do you know who I am?
[27:22] Speaker 7: I'm pretty confident if I was no good tomorrow, you'd
[27:25] Speaker 7: probably take care of me. And I reckon if you
[27:26] Speaker 7: were no good, I'd probably take care of you. Of
[27:28] Speaker 7: course we know each other, you know, and we'd be
[27:30] Speaker 7: part of that and we'd be trying to help.
[27:32] Speaker 8: You don't necessarily need to know the solution.
[27:34] Speaker 7: I don't necessarily need to know the solution, but we
[27:35] Speaker 7: need to stick together and then create systems that that
[27:39] Speaker 7: sit around people. And I reckon it's where young people
[27:41] Speaker 7: are really struggling. They're less connected every day. They're less
[27:44] Speaker 7: involved in volunteering, less involved in communities. My local surf club,
[27:48] Speaker 7: the average age of people is about 50. I need
[27:50] Speaker 7: someone about 20 to rescue me most weekends. You know,
[27:53] Speaker 7: participation in those things, knowing who people are, learning from
[27:56] Speaker 7: older people, you know, critical transgenerational stuff. I'm very fortunate
[27:59] Speaker 7: these days to be a grandparent across generations and cultures.
[28:03] Speaker 7: So the social factors are a really important part of
[28:06] Speaker 7: those systems. Housing is critical. And, you know, social housing,
[28:11] Speaker 7: people being together. And then health systems, not just a
[28:14] Speaker 7: shiny new program. And geez, we have a lot of
[28:16] Speaker 7: elections in Australia. Yes. You know, shiny new last federal election,
[28:19] Speaker 7: new mental health programs. Shiny new state elections coming up.
[28:22] Speaker 7: Big promises in Victoria and New South Wales. But that's
[28:24] Speaker 7: not the system. That's not the sustained long term. And
[28:28] Speaker 7: It isn't just money. It's smart 21st century ways, the
[28:32] Speaker 7: way we use technology, the way we join things up,
[28:34] Speaker 7: the way we track things, so we don't lose people
[28:38] Speaker 7: who are in trouble. And then when we lose people,
[28:41] Speaker 7: bad stuff happens.
[28:42] Speaker 1: Well, because it's that thing where none of us ever
[28:45] Speaker 1: want to see the haves and have-nots of a place
[28:47] Speaker 1: like the US, right, where, let's be honest, where once poverty...
[28:52] Speaker 1: is linked in with a whole collection of mental health disorders,
[28:56] Speaker 1: all the rest of it, where, because there's not the
[28:58] Speaker 1: support and the facilities, people will end up either committing
[29:01] Speaker 1: crime or they go to jail because that's where it
[29:03] Speaker 1: just ends up being, right? And I know plenty of
[29:06] Speaker 1: people in corrections here in Australia who are starting to
[29:08] Speaker 1: notice some of this starting to pop up.
[29:11] Speaker 7: Oh, this is huge in our remand issues in Australia.
[29:13] Speaker 7: Anyone who works in the prisons will tell you this.
[29:15] Speaker 7: I have, and I'm very fortunate to travel around the world,
[29:17] Speaker 7: but I've just seen some of the worst examples in
[29:19] Speaker 7: North America again. People are used to seeing it in
[29:22] Speaker 7: San Francisco where it's completely out of control. I was
[29:24] Speaker 7: just in Vancouver, which people think Canada, nice place. Central Vancouver,
[29:28] Speaker 7: drug deaths on the street, homelessness on the street, really
[29:31] Speaker 7: large problems. They're really challenging. We're very fortunate in Australia.
[29:35] Speaker 7: In most places, we haven't gone that far. But you
[29:38] Speaker 7: can actually see around the world in all the world's
[29:40] Speaker 7: major cities, increasing rates of homelessness, pressure on housing, pressure
[29:43] Speaker 7: on social services, because people don't really want to buy
[29:47] Speaker 7: into the system solutions because they're long-term, they're serious, they're cooperative,
[29:53] Speaker 7: but they also involve us as communities in being serious
[29:55] Speaker 7: players and saying into the political system and into every
[29:58] Speaker 7: community in which we live, I care about this.
[30:01] Speaker 8: You know, I care about cancer care. I care about
[30:02] Speaker 8: emergency departments.
[30:04] Speaker 1: I do.
[30:04] Speaker 8: I'm one of them myself. I care about the elderly,
[30:06] Speaker 8: you know.
[30:07] Speaker 7: But as you correctly said in the introduction, a lot
[30:11] Speaker 7: of lip service gets paid in this area, a lot
[30:13] Speaker 7: of shiny new programs, a long list. You can see
[30:15] Speaker 7: on most government websites, a really long list of programs.
[30:18] Speaker 7: I was looking at one today and thought.
[30:19] Speaker 8: I wonder if there's a system behind that.
[30:21] Speaker 1: Good point.
[30:22] Speaker 7: Or it's been an announceable, it's been a thing. And
[30:25] Speaker 7: we know when we see we've had royal commissions in Victoria,
[30:27] Speaker 7: we've had endless, endless... inquiries in Australia. So good ideas,
[30:33] Speaker 7: good concepts often don't get really followed through. And we
[30:36] Speaker 7: want to get taxpayers, we want value for money. Throwing
[30:40] Speaker 7: money at it and not thinking about it and not
[30:43] Speaker 7: seeing it through won't help.
[30:45] Speaker 1: Jeez, you're a good man. Thank you, Professor. Thank you.
[30:47] Speaker 1: Really appreciate it. Professor Ian Hickey, honestly, any chance we
[30:49] Speaker 1: have to talk to him is a privilege and any
[30:51] Speaker 1: way we can support him, we gladly will. All right,
[30:53] Speaker 1: can you know what you think about that or anything else?
[30:54] Speaker 1: You can always send me an email, paul at news24. com. au.
[30:58] Speaker 1: Plenty to debate away from all of the obvious news
[31:00] Speaker 1: stories of the day, including, well, yeah, the Prime Minister
[31:03] Speaker 1: and his socialists. Does it help or hurt him? We'll
[31:05] Speaker 1: get to all that in a second or two here
[31:07] Speaker 1: on Paul Murray Live. Thanks for watching. Thank you so
[31:12] Speaker 1: much for watching. Let us get right into the conversation
[31:14] Speaker 1: right now with two ladies I'm very pleased to say
[31:16] Speaker 1: are in the man cave as well. Future professors, no doubt,
[31:18] Speaker 1: is Lucy.
[31:20] Speaker 5: No way, Jose.
[31:21] Speaker 13: Linda Scott.
[31:22] Speaker 1: All right, lovely to see you both here. Look, we
[31:25] Speaker 1: all know how hard it is, but also I don't
[31:27] Speaker 1: want to fatigue people with the endless conversation about the obvious,
[31:31] Speaker 1: but there is the element that I've decided to go
[31:33] Speaker 1: with tonight, which is to talk about the vast difference
[31:36] Speaker 1: between a Prime Minister speaking with reverence about a person
[31:39] Speaker 1: that his office was trying to muddy up a couple
[31:42] Speaker 1: of weeks ago. Is it fair to have that conversation?
[31:45] Speaker 1: Is it unfair? What do you think about what we've
[31:49] Speaker 1: learnt in the past couple of days?
[31:50] Speaker 11: I think it's very fair. But can I just ask
[31:53] Speaker 11: everyone to zoom out a little bit, right? Because I
[31:56] Speaker 11: think it would be completely disingenuous for us to sit
[31:58] Speaker 11: here and say, well, it's only Anthony Albanese's government that
[32:02] Speaker 11: does this.
[32:02] Speaker 15: They all do it.
[32:03] Speaker 1: They all do it. In all directions.
[32:04] Speaker 15: And there's a problem with that too, right?
[32:07] Speaker 11: And I'm a relative newcomer when it comes to politics
[32:10] Speaker 11: and political commentary. But one of the things that I
[32:13] Speaker 11: very much resented when I've been operating within this space
[32:16] Speaker 11: with people who have been doing it for a very
[32:18] Speaker 11: long time is, oh, Lucy, that's just how it's always been.
[32:21] Speaker 11: That's just how we do it. Why aren't we challenging that?
[32:24] Speaker 11: Why aren't we challenging the norm? Why aren't we saying,
[32:26] Speaker 11: do you know what, to the head of communications, actually?
[32:30] Speaker 11: We're not, as taxpayers, paying you to dig up dirt
[32:32] Speaker 11: on our political rivals. We're paying you to support the
[32:35] Speaker 11: Prime Minister and his duties as our Prime Minister, as
[32:39] Speaker 11: the man that's been elected.
[32:40] Speaker 15: To serve the people of this nation, all 28 million
[32:43] Speaker 15: of them. That's what we're paying them for, right?
[32:46] Speaker 1: None of this.
[32:46] Speaker 11: mudslinging that we see in question time.
[32:49] Speaker 15: For those of you out there that don't watch it,
[32:51] Speaker 15: watch it if you want to feel.
[32:52] Speaker 11: Disgusted and ashamed of our elected officials, because that's certainly
[32:56] Speaker 11: how I feel when I watch the carry on that
[32:58] Speaker 11: goes on in there. The Dorothy Dix's, the questions set
[33:01] Speaker 11: up that actually don't even really bear any meaning or substance.
[33:04] Speaker 11: It's just designed to denigrate your political opponent. And then conversely,
[33:08] Speaker 11: the mudslinging that comes back. The Prime Minister only recently
[33:11] Speaker 11: had to withdraw a comment where he labelled Angus Taylor.
[33:14] Speaker 15: A fake, right? And all of these withdrawals and these moments, well,
[33:18] Speaker 15: it gets a bit too hot and heavy.
[33:19] Speaker 11: You're not getting hot and heavy enough about what's going
[33:21] Speaker 11: on in the country. You're just hot and bothered about
[33:23] Speaker 11: each other. That's why people are repulsed.
[33:27] Speaker 1: But also, it speaks to a certain type of politics, right?
[33:30] Speaker 1: And again, Linda, I'm not going to pretend here that
[33:31] Speaker 1: I sit around and it's, you know, cuddles for everyone, right? Like,
[33:34] Speaker 1: I hit and I hit pretty directly, right? However... I'm
[33:39] Speaker 1: also aware of the faults in our wider politics and
[33:42] Speaker 1: in our wider system. And the problem is, is that
[33:43] Speaker 1: there is a certain strain of the adversarial nature of
[33:46] Speaker 1: our politics, which is about disqualifying the other person from
[33:49] Speaker 1: having a right to be in the conversation. And that's
[33:52] Speaker 1: where I put the dirt file. But what do you think?
[33:55] Speaker 10: Look, I think that politics in, you know, democracies is
[33:58] Speaker 10: often couched as a, you know, combat sport where people
[34:02] Speaker 10: really take a very aggressive approach to it. And I
[34:05] Speaker 10: think the increasing amounts of, violent speech that we see
[34:10] Speaker 10: and now actual violence against an elected member or alleged
[34:14] Speaker 10: violence is, you know, a stark reminder for us all
[34:17] Speaker 10: to conduct ourselves in a way that I think is
[34:20] Speaker 10: more thoughtful about people and the fact that they're all human,
[34:25] Speaker 10: that we should be able to debate ideas in a
[34:27] Speaker 10: civil way. I'm also really conscious that the people inside parliament,
[34:31] Speaker 10: be they elected or not, are probably feeling pretty awful
[34:34] Speaker 10: at the moment. And I think our hearts should go
[34:37] Speaker 10: out to them. I know I've spoken to people across
[34:39] Speaker 10: politics this week and, you know, there's staff in electorate
[34:42] Speaker 10: offices that are feeling pretty unsafe. There's staff in ministerial
[34:45] Speaker 10: offices that are feeling pretty unsafe. And many people knew
[34:49] Speaker 10: Helen Haynes. I mean, I'm sure you've met her. I've
[34:51] Speaker 10: met her. You know, it's a very distressing event. So
[34:54] Speaker 10: I think first and foremost, we should just think of
[34:56] Speaker 10: everybody as humans this week and urge them to look
[34:59] Speaker 10: after themselves and take care of themselves. But I think
[35:02] Speaker 10: more broadly, you know, where we can ever Sticking to
[35:07] Speaker 10: a debate about the issues, the ideas.
[35:10] Speaker 15: The policies.
[35:12] Speaker 10: Surely we can do that. I mean, I volunteer my
[35:14] Speaker 10: time on this show every week to come in and
[35:16] Speaker 10: be smashed up, you know, by an overwhelming majority of
[35:19] Speaker 10: people who I don't agree with.
[35:20] Speaker 15: But the difference is, Linda, is that we're debating ideas. Yeah, yeah,
[35:23] Speaker 15: we can debate issues and ideas. I'm not debating your
[35:25] Speaker 15: personal character. I don't have any intention to.
[35:27] Speaker 4: We're chatting in the green room and we're talking about
[35:31] Speaker 4: family and we're laughing and we're sharing those moments, but
[35:34] Speaker 4: that it gets reduced to personal attacks and insults and
[35:38] Speaker 4: deliberately going after someone to denigrate them and reduce them
[35:42] Speaker 4: to ashes because it's in the name of politics. That,
[35:45] Speaker 4: to me, is not why we elected these people. We
[35:48] Speaker 4: want you there, Linda.
[35:49] Speaker 11: We want all of our politicians there to serve the people,
[35:52] Speaker 11: to act in the best interests of our nations, not
[35:55] Speaker 11: for themselves and for their political agendas.
[35:58] Speaker 1: A perfect example, right, about, you know, in the lowered
[36:02] Speaker 1: the temperature, find a different way to agree, to disagree, right?
[36:05] Speaker 1: How do you deal with this, right? So Kelly Sloan
[36:08] Speaker 1: has commented about what she's seen as, which is a
[36:11] Speaker 1: New South Wales government guide in and around breastfeeding and, well,
[36:16] Speaker 1: take away the word woman, take away the word female,
[36:18] Speaker 1: be woke and go into gender neutral, when obviously those
[36:24] Speaker 1: of us with basic logic don't quite think that change
[36:27] Speaker 1: is necessary. This is what Kelly Sloan has said about
[36:30] Speaker 1: it tonight.
[36:31] Speaker 6: So I'm going to.
[36:32] Speaker 11: Say something that should not be controversial, but apparently it is.
[36:36] Speaker 10: Only women.
[36:37] Speaker 11: Only women breastfeed babies. Well, apparently not according to New
[36:41] Speaker 11: South Wales Parliament, who released an updated list of policies today,
[36:45] Speaker 11: including the breastfeeding policy.
[36:47] Speaker 8: And they said, for the breastfeeding policy.
[36:50] Speaker 11: This policy has been updated with gender neutral language. Gender
[36:55] Speaker 11: neutral language for a breastfeeding policy.
[37:00] Speaker 8: This just blows my mind.
[37:01] Speaker 11: This is why we all wonder whether the world is
[37:03] Speaker 11: going completely nuts.
[37:06] Speaker 1: So two ways we can handle this. One, about the
[37:08] Speaker 1: individual moment that is before us. But when issues like
[37:11] Speaker 1: this come up, right, and there are people who will
[37:13] Speaker 1: philosophically say that change needed to be made, and there'll
[37:16] Speaker 1: be people that will philosophically say that change is unnecessary.
[37:19] Speaker 1: How do you have that conversation in supposedly the calm
[37:22] Speaker 1: down the temperature, don't deal with, don't rip into each other?
[37:28] Speaker 1: Because I'm pretty sure if I wanted to, We could
[37:30] Speaker 1: have a rather entertaining 15 minutes on television right now,
[37:33] Speaker 1: which would be both of you strongly disagreeing on this issue.
[37:36] Speaker 1: So how do we deal with this?
[37:38] Speaker 10: Look, again, I find it difficult to understand why in
[37:41] Speaker 10: a week like this, where we're all reflecting on a
[37:44] Speaker 10: really tragic event, this kind of issue is raised by
[37:48] Speaker 10: anybody in the public domain about a policy to do
[37:51] Speaker 10: with a workplace. Parliament is a workplace.
[37:55] Speaker 15: But more importantly, I.
[37:57] Speaker 10: Think Why do we have ideas coming from any elected
[38:02] Speaker 10: representatives that are just kind of pushing down on people?
[38:06] Speaker 10: Can't we just have a society where people have policies
[38:10] Speaker 10: in a workplace, where people respect who they are for
[38:12] Speaker 10: who they are, and we uphold human rights around people
[38:17] Speaker 10: and their rights at home or in the workplace? I
[38:20] Speaker 10: find this genuinely astonishing that the opposition leader has chosen
[38:26] Speaker 10: this issue and this time to debate something like this when,
[38:32] Speaker 10: you know, there's all sorts of things we could discuss
[38:35] Speaker 10: in New South Wales, our schools, our hospitals, our ambulance system,
[38:40] Speaker 10: the importance of having a strong mental health system, the
[38:43] Speaker 10: importance of supplying enough housing. I could go on and
[38:46] Speaker 10: on and on, but.
[38:47] Speaker 11: Women's rights not being eroded, the right to go into
[38:50] Speaker 11: a women's-only space and to not have males who identify
[38:52] Speaker 11: as women coming into that space, the right to play
[38:55] Speaker 11: in a women's football team, for example, where a player
[38:57] Speaker 11: who had her leg broken in two places by a
[39:00] Speaker 11: trans-identified male can no longer play sport. It may not be, respectfully, Linda,
[39:04] Speaker 11: an issue for you, but it's an issue to the
[39:06] Speaker 11: people I speak to, to the rape survivors who feel
[39:09] Speaker 11: very uncomfortable by the presence of males in their female-only spaces...
[39:12] Speaker 11: to deeply religious women who can't have males present in
[39:16] Speaker 11: their sporting environments. These are things that matter. Now, you
[39:21] Speaker 11: may think that that's not a big deal, but it
[39:24] Speaker 11: is a big deal to these women and it is
[39:25] Speaker 11: a big problem for them. And I speak to them
[39:27] Speaker 11: routinely and I've been a strong advocate in this space.
[39:30] Speaker 15: For a really long time.
[39:31] Speaker 11: Jasmine Sussex, who I'm not sure if you're familiar with her,
[39:34] Speaker 11: she's the Australian Breastfeeding Association counsellor. She's being sued by QCAT,
[39:41] Speaker 11: by a trans-identified male who wished to actually breastfeed a child.
[39:48] Speaker 11: And now, in what has appeared to be somewhat of
[39:50] Speaker 11: a win for Jasmine recently, they have actually ended up
[39:53] Speaker 11: in a situation where, on appeal, this trans-identified male now
[39:57] Speaker 11: has to provide the information concerning the hormones and what
[40:00] Speaker 11: type of substance is being lactated in order to feed
[40:04] Speaker 11: this child. I'm not someone that's easily offended, but as
[40:07] Speaker 11: a woman that breastfed for four years straight of her life,
[40:10] Speaker 11: from one child to the next, and tandem-fed in periods
[40:13] Speaker 11: like that, Only women can breastfeed. This is a God-given
[40:17] Speaker 11: right that we have been given. And so to feel
[40:19] Speaker 11: like we are being reduced to chest feeders or that
[40:22] Speaker 11: our biology doesn't matter in these circumstances and that these
[40:26] Speaker 11: children who are being nourished by this milk don't matter
[40:30] Speaker 11: in these situations, that's deeply offensive and upsetting.
[40:33] Speaker 15: For a lot of us.
[40:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, again, it's this thing where if you're
[40:38] Speaker 1: trying to get your head around, OK, how do we
[40:40] Speaker 1: deal with... these matters respectfully from one angle, my head
[40:45] Speaker 1: starts to go in one way, but then you go, well,
[40:46] Speaker 1: hang on, society's meant to be about the majority position,
[40:49] Speaker 1: all the rest of it, who's the one who's got
[40:50] Speaker 1: to make the compromise here? To me, I think that
[40:53] Speaker 1: always there's a certain deference that is given, and if
[40:57] Speaker 1: you have a problem with it when it ever happens,
[40:59] Speaker 1: then it's either the wrong time or it's inappropriate or whatever,
[41:01] Speaker 1: but obviously Kelly Sloan's decided to go there when it
[41:03] Speaker 1: comes to the politics of the day. I promise next
[41:06] Speaker 1: week it'll be more fun. All right, ladies, I appreciate it.
[41:08] Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Thank you, Lucy. Thank you, Linda.
[41:10] Speaker 1: All right, Jess Wilson, the leader of the opposition in Victoria,
[41:13] Speaker 1: the next potential premier, and our special guest for a
[41:15] Speaker 1: pub test in a few weeks' time. She is standing by.
[41:18] Speaker 1: We'll talk to the potential next premier of Victoria next.
[41:26] Speaker 1: Jess Wilson, well, she has had a very busy time
[41:28] Speaker 1: as the opposition leader. Remember, of course, in the most
[41:31] Speaker 1: recent winter break in Victoria, she went to every single electorate.
[41:34] Speaker 1: That is the campaign before the campaign, and we're still
[41:37] Speaker 1: in the bit before the campaign, but the campaign, of course,
[41:39] Speaker 1: will be mega. And Jess Wilson is the opposition leader
[41:42] Speaker 1: who joins us now from mighty Melbourne and beautiful Victoria. So, Jess,
[41:47] Speaker 1: no doubt the energy is high, the hopes are high,
[41:50] Speaker 1: but there is election to be won. But, obviously, this
[41:54] Speaker 1: week has been about Helen Haynes, has been about safety
[41:57] Speaker 1: of MPs. As a person who is an MP, but
[42:01] Speaker 1: also as somebody who's trying to encourage... people to stand
[42:04] Speaker 1: for the party and become MPs. How do you feel
[42:07] Speaker 1: about the safety of the people who are our representatives?
[42:12] Speaker 14: Well, Paul, great to be with you. And first and foremost,
[42:15] Speaker 14: my thoughts are with Helen and her family. I saw
[42:19] Speaker 14: Phil stand up, her husband, this evening and just I
[42:24] Speaker 14: cannot imagine what he and his family are going through
[42:27] Speaker 14: at the moment. And all of our thoughts and prayers
[42:29] Speaker 14: are with Helen at this time. Look, Of course, there's
[42:32] Speaker 14: concerns around the security for elected officials. But first and foremost, Paul,
[42:37] Speaker 14: I'm really focused on how everybody gets to and from
[42:41] Speaker 14: work safely. All Victorians, all Australians, whether you're a frontline worker,
[42:46] Speaker 14: whether you're a volunteer, absolutely everybody to your local MP
[42:50] Speaker 14: should be able to be safe on our streets. And
[42:53] Speaker 14: that means reducing crime and violence across the board. And
[42:56] Speaker 14: that's something that I'm focused on. at this election. But
[43:00] Speaker 14: it also comes back to how do we ensure that
[43:02] Speaker 14: we can disagree with each other respectfully and still ensure
[43:06] Speaker 14: that we are safe and we do not see that violence?
[43:10] Speaker 1: Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, that safety of everyone returning home
[43:15] Speaker 1: is a comment about law and order, is a comment
[43:18] Speaker 1: about workplace safety, is a comment about the way that
[43:21] Speaker 1: we run our roads is a comment about the safety
[43:23] Speaker 1: of the public transport system. It is an insight into
[43:27] Speaker 1: the task that is ahead. And not only do you
[43:30] Speaker 1: have to potentially repair damage that has been done over
[43:34] Speaker 1: a long period of time, but you've also got to
[43:36] Speaker 1: keep the systems, you can't shut the joint down for
[43:39] Speaker 1: a couple of months while you reorder and reorganise everything.
[43:44] Speaker 1: How big a task for you is that idea of
[43:47] Speaker 1: being able to work out what becomes the priority, what
[43:51] Speaker 1: becomes potentially the first hundred days? But obviously, all of
[43:55] Speaker 1: that with a giant, giant asterisk of people have to
[43:57] Speaker 1: vote for it first.
[43:59] Speaker 14: Well, exactly right. We take absolutely nothing for granted. But
[44:04] Speaker 14: if we are given the honour of being the next
[44:06] Speaker 14: government here and I'm elected the next premier here in Victoria,
[44:10] Speaker 14: we do not have a moment to waste when it
[44:13] Speaker 14: comes to fixing this state. And that's why we have
[44:16] Speaker 14: outlined our 100-day plan in terms of what we need
[44:20] Speaker 14: to get done. And the most important part of that, Paul,
[44:23] Speaker 14: is making sure that Victorians feel safe again. And I've
[44:27] Speaker 14: committed to recalling the Parliament this side of Christmas to
[44:30] Speaker 14: legislate our reforms to bail, a one-strike rule for bail,
[44:34] Speaker 14: so that if you break bail, you will go to
[44:37] Speaker 14: jail to make sure that we end that revolving door
[44:39] Speaker 14: of bail in this state, but also our genuine adult crime,
[44:43] Speaker 14: adult time laws. That will be legislated this side of
[44:46] Speaker 14: Christmas to make sure that we end the situation here
[44:50] Speaker 14: in Victoria that young people in particular, young offenders, think
[44:54] Speaker 14: that they can break the law and there will be
[44:56] Speaker 14: no consequences. That is part of our 100-day plan. It's
[45:00] Speaker 14: not going to be easy, to your point. We have
[45:02] Speaker 14: a lot of big problems in this state, but we
[45:05] Speaker 14: need to start from day one. And in order to
[45:07] Speaker 14: do that, you need a team, you need a plan,
[45:10] Speaker 14: and you need the experience in terms of real-world experience
[45:13] Speaker 14: and government experience, which is exactly what my team has.
[45:15] Speaker 1: I couldn't believe... Well, I can believe, because we all
[45:18] Speaker 1: know the situation, but what... Just 25% of people in
[45:21] Speaker 1: Victoria believe the joint's headed in the right direction. Now, obviously,
[45:24] Speaker 1: there's many versions of what that can be, and, yes,
[45:26] Speaker 1: I'm sure the Victorian socialists don't think that anything's headed
[45:29] Speaker 1: in the right direction, but for the vast majority of
[45:32] Speaker 1: other people, it is a rejection of the government as
[45:34] Speaker 1: it currently is. What do you want to say to
[45:37] Speaker 1: the 75% of people who think the joint is headed
[45:41] Speaker 1: in the wrong direction? How can you actually not just
[45:43] Speaker 1: win their vote but change their state? Well.
[45:47] Speaker 15: It comes back.
[45:48] Speaker 14: To what I'm doing every single day and why I
[45:51] Speaker 14: get out of bed in the mornings is to fight
[45:53] Speaker 14: for this state.
[45:54] Speaker 15: I love this place.
[45:55] Speaker 14: You know, I was born here. I'm raising my family here.
[45:59] Speaker 14: And I know it can be the best place in
[46:01] Speaker 14: this country again. It is going to take some serious
[46:04] Speaker 14: work to get us back there. But I know that
[46:07] Speaker 14: we can bring back hope and opportunity. We can make
[46:10] Speaker 14: sure that we reduce crime. We can lower costs and
[46:13] Speaker 14: lower taxes for Victorians. But most importantly, Paul, we can
[46:17] Speaker 14: deliver a government that actually works for Victorians. I understand
[46:22] Speaker 14: that Victorians are angry. They are frustrated. They think that
[46:25] Speaker 14: this Labor government has trashed the future of this state.
[46:29] Speaker 14: But we can fix it, but I need their help.
[46:31] Speaker 14: I need their support. I need them to put a
[46:33] Speaker 14: number one next to the Liberals and Nationals to make
[46:36] Speaker 14: sure that we can change the government and we can
[46:38] Speaker 14: give Victoria the fresh start it so desperately needs.
[46:41] Speaker 1: So you're going to join us for a pub test.
[46:43] Speaker 1: We're looking forward to it in suburban Melbourne towards the
[46:45] Speaker 1: start of the campaign, Monday the 9th. Now, you know
[46:48] Speaker 1: it's not about me asking questions about people. asking questions
[46:52] Speaker 1: they'll have plenty about the trains and crime and education
[46:55] Speaker 1: all the rest of it but are you ready for
[46:56] Speaker 1: some of the randoms as well is there anything that
[46:58] Speaker 1: you uh that some areas where somebody's going to ask
[47:01] Speaker 1: you some crazy questions about xbox games or uh you
[47:04] Speaker 1: know uh you know how you like to swim are
[47:06] Speaker 1: you ready for the randoms as well because some of
[47:08] Speaker 1: those questions are coming mate Absolutely.
[47:12] Speaker 14: I'm really looking forward to this. As you know and
[47:14] Speaker 14: you said before, I spent the winter break, 36 days
[47:17] Speaker 14: on the road, back to back, visiting every single electorate
[47:20] Speaker 14: in Victoria, all 88. And I got some wonderful questions
[47:24] Speaker 14: from Victorians. My favourite part about this job, Paul, is
[47:28] Speaker 14: being on the ground, actually being with Victorians. And that's
[47:31] Speaker 14: exactly the type of Premier I want to be if
[47:33] Speaker 14: I'm given the honour, to make sure that I'm always there,
[47:36] Speaker 14: always listening. and being a Premier for all of this state,
[47:39] Speaker 14: not just Melbourne, but for all of Victoria. So I'm
[47:43] Speaker 14: really looking forward to it. I did get a question
[47:45] Speaker 14: once when I was talking to some primary school kids,
[47:47] Speaker 14: and they have the best questions of anyone that you
[47:50] Speaker 14: ever meet about what my favourite dinosaur was. So I'm
[47:54] Speaker 14: absolutely ready for the challenge.
[47:56] Speaker 1: What was it? What was it? Because I don't know
[47:58] Speaker 1: if there is a right answer here, but I've got
[47:59] Speaker 1: kids in my house who would, if given the chance,
[48:02] Speaker 1: ask you that question.
[48:04] Speaker 14: Well, I sort of racked my brains back to watching,
[48:07] Speaker 14: you know, Land Before Time when I was growing up
[48:09] Speaker 14: and things like that. But I think I said a stegosaurus.
[48:12] Speaker 1: Yeah, good. Perfect answer. Perfect answer. That'll do well in
[48:15] Speaker 1: my house too. Thank you, Jess. We'll see you in
[48:16] Speaker 1: a couple of weeks' time. Good on you, mate.
[48:18] Speaker 13: Thanks so much.
[48:18] Speaker 1: The opposition leader. Imagine that energy and that focus turning
[48:21] Speaker 1: around Victoria. I hope it happens. We look forward to
[48:24] Speaker 1: meeting up with her for that pub test. If you
[48:26] Speaker 1: want to send us the email, you know the address.
[48:27] Speaker 1: More in a sec here on Paul Murray Live. We
[48:34] Speaker 1: are done. A reminder, we're in Karratha this weekend for
[48:36] Speaker 1: Our Town, but between now and then, here is the
[48:38] Speaker 1: late debate.

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