# Paul Murray Live | 16 December

An episode of [Paul Murray Live](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/376966263), 16 Dec 2025, 49 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/be3abd48-25e5-45a6-aede-ac2a00524a12/e1b487eb-6c08-4f17-afbf-b3b500c3da21/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=95971714-8fe6-4855-b1fe-ac2a00524a12

John Howard lashes Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, families of Bondi victims in mourning. Plus, the Bondi gunmen spent a month in the Philippines. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: From the screening center. This is Paul Murray Live, Good Evening.
[0:07] Speaker 1: There is a lot to get through tonight.
[0:09] Speaker 2: Of course, we are focused on what has taken place
[0:12] Speaker 2: in Bondai, the place that changed Australia forever. As we speak,
[0:16] Speaker 2: the evening vigil has come to an end, but many
[0:20] Speaker 2: have laid candles, flags, flowers and messages for those fifteen
[0:25] Speaker 2: who have been murdered. Amongst those who have attended in
[0:29] Speaker 2: the past hour or so is the parents of Matilda,
[0:34] Speaker 2: the little ten year old girl who was killed in
[0:39] Speaker 2: all of this.
[0:39] Speaker 1: On Sunday night.
[0:40] Speaker 2: You'll hear from Matilda's family in a moment or two time.
[0:44] Speaker 2: Plenty of other people have also been at what is
[0:47] Speaker 2: now becoming a monument in and of itself, including of
[0:50] Speaker 2: course the former Prime Minister John Howard. Many others have
[0:53] Speaker 2: attended today, sporting codes, the Sees, politicians, well known and
[1:01] Speaker 2: random members of the community have all been paying their respects.
[1:03] Speaker 2: As always, we're going to start every show this week
[1:06] Speaker 2: by making reference to the single most important people here,
[1:09] Speaker 2: and that is of course the victims and their wider families.
[1:14] Speaker 2: When John Howard was there today, those who were there
[1:18] Speaker 2: echoed much of our thoughts that we wished a person
[1:21] Speaker 2: of his character was currently leading the nation, and the
[1:33] Speaker 2: former Prime Minister in cricket parlance, absolutely took the middle
[1:36] Speaker 2: stump of the current Prime minister. Something that has been
[1:39] Speaker 2: absolutely lacking from this Prime minister is that sense of rage.
[1:44] Speaker 2: There seems to be this deer in the headlights or
[1:47] Speaker 2: political spin that is going on, trying to find ways
[1:51] Speaker 2: to survive a news cycle rather than reflect the nation's anger.
[1:56] Speaker 2: Because today is the day where it got real. Today
[1:59] Speaker 2: was the day when the shock and madness of what
[2:03] Speaker 2: happened on Sunday is now starting to give way to
[2:06] Speaker 2: a righteous anger, to an anger that this has happened
[2:09] Speaker 2: in our country, that potentially some.
[2:12] Speaker 1: Of the smaller things that could have.
[2:14] Speaker 2: Been done weeks, months and years ago have not been done.
[2:20] Speaker 2: That the urgency and passion of our leadership is more
[2:25] Speaker 2: in managing this situation than leading the nation. John Howard,
[2:30] Speaker 2: appearing a little earlier today here on Sky News, made
[2:34] Speaker 2: it very clear that the Prime Minister is not where
[2:36] Speaker 2: the country is right now and needs to change the
[2:39] Speaker 2: way he is talking.
[2:41] Speaker 3: And the Prime Minister has been mister yes, but maybe
[2:47] Speaker 3: on this and indeed another matters, But if he'd have
[2:49] Speaker 3: shown a little more determination from the beginning and sounded
[2:53] Speaker 3: as though he felt it perhaps some of the anti
[2:56] Speaker 3: Semetism that have spread over the last couple of years
[3:00] Speaker 3: have occurred. The Australian people are not stupid. They can
[3:03] Speaker 3: work out of phony. They can work out when they're
[3:06] Speaker 3: being treated to weasel words. And I'm afraid on this
[3:10] Speaker 3: issue that's what the primes.
[3:13] Speaker 2: And he's not buying into what the Prime Minister is
[3:15] Speaker 2: showing to be the most urgent form of action, and
[3:18] Speaker 2: that is dealing with the tools, the weapons that were
[3:21] Speaker 2: used as opposed to the ideologies and the beliefs that
[3:25] Speaker 2: pulled the trigger.
[3:27] Speaker 3: And as for specific changes to gunners, I don't want
[3:30] Speaker 3: them to become a diversion, an excuse and that's the
[3:35] Speaker 3: fear I have that are you know we're going to
[3:37] Speaker 3: tighten these lawds make them even better? Well, I told
[3:40] Speaker 3: you it'd be a good idea to tighten, good idea
[3:43] Speaker 3: if you had have tightened your language over the last
[3:46] Speaker 3: couple of years and sound as though you were fair
[3:48] Speaker 3: ingham in stopping the spread of any semetries.
[3:52] Speaker 2: It's an excellent interview with a person who is long
[3:55] Speaker 2: gone from office but has the clarity that the current
[3:57] Speaker 2: Prime Minister does not. I have a look at it
[4:00] Speaker 2: in full, share it with your friends skynews dot com.
[4:03] Speaker 1: You will go searching for it on YouTube.
[4:06] Speaker 2: So now let's get to the actual Prime minister and
[4:08] Speaker 2: what why I have been holding off out of politeness
[4:10] Speaker 2: and recognition of the occasion. But tonight we have to
[4:14] Speaker 2: engage with the Prime Minister finds a way to say
[4:17] Speaker 2: a version of this for the past couple of days,
[4:19] Speaker 2: he will no doubt say a version of this for
[4:21] Speaker 2: the next few days.
[4:26] Speaker 4: We will not allow this country to be divided. That
[4:30] Speaker 4: is what the terrorist seek. We will unite, we will
[4:35] Speaker 4: embrace each other and.
[4:37] Speaker 1: We'll get through this well. Prime Minister.
[4:40] Speaker 2: While you may think that it is old muscular politics
[4:43] Speaker 2: to raise your voice or sharpen your eyes, it is
[4:46] Speaker 2: what twenty seven minion. Australians want, the ones who voted
[4:48] Speaker 2: for you, the ones who didn't vote for you, to
[4:51] Speaker 2: recognize that this is not just part of everyday life.
[4:53] Speaker 2: This is not just the extremes of the possibilities that happen.
[4:58] Speaker 2: Australia is already united, Minister. It was united from the
[5:01] Speaker 2: second all of us got a text message or somebody
[5:04] Speaker 2: who said, have a look at this. From the horror
[5:07] Speaker 2: that we all saw on Sunday night, from what we
[5:11] Speaker 2: all have read about for the past two days, Australia
[5:15] Speaker 2: is already united, Prime Minister. We are united against this crime.
[5:21] Speaker 2: From the streets of Western Sydney, to the people laying flowers,
[5:24] Speaker 2: to the people watching this broadcast or hearing our words
[5:29] Speaker 2: on the radio, Australia is united against this crime.
[5:32] Speaker 1: Prime Minister.
[5:35] Speaker 5: It's terrible.
[5:36] Speaker 6: It's tragic.
[5:37] Speaker 1: Yeah, Like all I could say is really, like, how
[5:41] Speaker 1: can we let this pass?
[5:42] Speaker 6: How can we let this through?
[5:44] Speaker 1: Six license guns?
[5:45] Speaker 7: Like how these.
[5:47] Speaker 8: Are the government's point too, the governments who know exactly
[5:50] Speaker 8: what's going on. That happened second time, so people doesn't
[5:53] Speaker 8: understand whatever happened. Are there wherever are you coming from?
[5:57] Speaker 8: It stays there, not this country.
[5:59] Speaker 9: It's really scary.
[6:00] Speaker 10: Australia used to be a safe country, like and now
[6:02] Speaker 10: it just feels really uneasy. And you know, if you're
[6:04] Speaker 10: going to be like, da'd take it back to your
[6:05] Speaker 10: own country, like you know, like we all came to
[6:08] Speaker 10: austray on from in different country as well, we all
[6:10] Speaker 10: kind of astray for a better life.
[6:11] Speaker 11: Whoever thought something like this could happen a Bondau bitch,
[6:14] Speaker 11: but it has.
[6:17] Speaker 9: Perhaps it's that sense of hope that people can support
[6:20] Speaker 9: each other through incredible sadness and trauma that no one
[6:23] Speaker 9: would have ever expected.
[6:25] Speaker 2: Prime Minister to stop pretending that you are the one
[6:27] Speaker 2: who is holding the country together. It is holding itself
[6:30] Speaker 2: together without you. People, without your direction, without social media posts,
[6:36] Speaker 2: without being told what to do, spontaneously have done things
[6:40] Speaker 2: like line up for hours to give blood. Australia is
[6:45] Speaker 2: united against this crime. Australians of all types, shapes and
[6:50] Speaker 2: histories have gone to Bondai if they can, They are
[6:55] Speaker 2: giving where they can, They are praying if they choose,
[7:00] Speaker 2: They are seeming strength and love. Prime Minister, you say
[7:05] Speaker 2: we need to be united. We are already united against
[7:09] Speaker 2: this crime and we are united against the hate behind it.
[7:15] Speaker 2: Why can you not represent that feeling? As we know
[7:23] Speaker 2: as the hours tick by, more and more about the
[7:26] Speaker 2: people responsible. Now, when it comes to these events, I
[7:30] Speaker 2: do my best not to use names and try not
[7:32] Speaker 2: to show the faces of those who have perpetrated or
[7:36] Speaker 2: stand to be accused of perpetrating. But part of this
[7:42] Speaker 2: event in our history is to understand the hate behind it.
[7:47] Speaker 2: He's part of the reporting that builds on the reporting
[7:50] Speaker 2: of the Australian newspaper, but on the ABC about the
[7:54] Speaker 2: history of one of these cowards.
[7:58] Speaker 12: Six years ago, Naveda Cram was preaching on the streets
[8:01] Speaker 12: of Sydney.
[8:02] Speaker 13: But the reading healing or cliff Guy order or whatever
[8:07] Speaker 13: action do in this course, La, this will see you
[8:10] Speaker 13: on the day of judgment.
[8:11] Speaker 12: Age just seventeen. He was among a group of street
[8:14] Speaker 12: preachers pushing radical ISLAMB.
[8:17] Speaker 14: So you have to remember to always, always pre me
[8:21] Speaker 14: and fulfill our obligation for all law, the love all
[8:26] Speaker 14: laws that were him.
[8:27] Speaker 1: And whatever he says.
[8:31] Speaker 12: They posed as peaceful messengers of the prophet Muhammad to
[8:34] Speaker 12: passing teenagers.
[8:36] Speaker 8: You guys in school here, I think it's already thro
[8:39] Speaker 8: room and just got pready five minutes and not.
[8:41] Speaker 12: Long after this video was recorded, he came to the
[8:44] Speaker 12: notice of Australia's Domestic Spy Agency ASIO.
[8:49] Speaker 2: Reporting of Jonathan Lee Hill join us in a moment
[8:51] Speaker 2: or two time is also worth noting here he has
[8:53] Speaker 2: been doing the work in Western Sydney that needs to
[8:57] Speaker 2: be done to expose some of the places that those
[9:01] Speaker 2: responsible have visited and the role they have shaped potentially
[9:06] Speaker 2: in warping minds where the taking of life becomes justified
[9:10] Speaker 2: for a higher power.
[9:12] Speaker 5: His viewpoints and his sermons, which don't just reach those
[9:15] Speaker 5: who turn up here for the prayer services throughout the day,
[9:18] Speaker 5: but are posted online, which have concerned many within the
[9:21] Speaker 5: Jewish community for the anti Semitic comments and also security
[9:25] Speaker 5: services themselves.
[9:27] Speaker 12: But Allah, the day you will be kicked out of
[9:30] Speaker 12: Palestine is coming, are they?
[9:31] Speaker 10: When the stones and the trees will seek and say, oh, Muslim,
[9:35] Speaker 10: there is a Jew behind.
[9:36] Speaker 9: Me, Come and kill him.
[9:39] Speaker 2: As we told you last night, Mark Murray, doing excellent
[9:41] Speaker 2: reporting of the Daily Telegraph, was the first to say
[9:44] Speaker 2: that both father and son, these cowardice, evil men, had
[9:51] Speaker 2: left the country just months ago.
[9:55] Speaker 6: We learned today at.
[9:57] Speaker 15: The Daily Telegraph that in November both father and son
[10:01] Speaker 15: spent a month in the Philippines. What they were doing there,
[10:05] Speaker 15: we don't know, but we do know that that is
[10:07] Speaker 15: a breeding ground. That isis has been developing since about
[10:10] Speaker 15: twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen.
[10:13] Speaker 2: He was first with it last night. Please keep an
[10:15] Speaker 2: eye on his reporting. He is up to the second
[10:17] Speaker 2: on all of this. A little more information today, as
[10:20] Speaker 2: the rest of the media caught up, including a little
[10:22] Speaker 2: bit of information that's coming from behind the lines. In
[10:26] Speaker 2: the Philippines, investigators are now examining the ties to international
[10:32] Speaker 2: jihadist networks. After discovering the pair traveled to Manila in
[10:35] Speaker 2: early November. According to officials briefed on the investigation, they
[10:39] Speaker 2: then journeyed to the Southern Philippines and underwent militant training,
[10:42] Speaker 2: so the senior counter terrorism official, speaking on the condition
[10:46] Speaker 2: of anonymity, the pair returned to Australia late November, and then,
[10:52] Speaker 2: of course, just weeks before the events that have taken
[10:55] Speaker 2: fifteen lives, the massacre at Bondai. The Australian Federal Police
[11:00] Speaker 2: confirmed what we already had heard from New South Wales officials,
[11:03] Speaker 2: but good to know that they too view this through
[11:06] Speaker 2: only one prison. Prime Minister, your country is united against
[11:10] Speaker 2: those who have committed this and the warped, bastardized version
[11:15] Speaker 2: of their religion that justified it in their hearts.
[11:19] Speaker 1: I declared this to be a terrorist incident.
[11:24] Speaker 2: We are also united, Prime Minister, behind those who have
[11:27] Speaker 2: saved lives, the one who actually faced danger, not those
[11:32] Speaker 2: who seek to find a way politically how to deal
[11:35] Speaker 2: with this. Today, more people and we have actually heard
[11:42] Speaker 2: a little more from the Sydney tobacconist who is currently
[11:46] Speaker 2: in hospital. Thankfully his recovery is continuing. However, his family
[11:52] Speaker 2: say it is a process of weeks and months, not
[11:54] Speaker 2: hours and days. We also today have learned about two
[12:00] Speaker 2: figures at the very start of this who were murdered,
[12:05] Speaker 2: but they're delaying of the shooters being able to get
[12:10] Speaker 2: onto that bridge may well have saved even more lives.
[12:14] Speaker 1: What you're about to see is of course distressing.
[12:15] Speaker 2: What you are watching now is of course distressing, as
[12:19] Speaker 2: it should be, because it is heartbreaking, chilling.
[12:24] Speaker 13: New images of an act of heroism on that bloody
[12:27] Speaker 13: Sunday captured on dash cam two men falling to the
[12:31] Speaker 13: ground after a struggle. The man in the purple top
[12:34] Speaker 13: with his wife watching on, managers to disarm the terrorist,
[12:37] Speaker 13: father segued Akram. He grabs the gun like a cricket
[12:41] Speaker 13: bat and charges towards him, but Akraham has more than
[12:45] Speaker 13: one weapon. He points and shoots at the husband and wife.
[12:50] Speaker 13: They are the first victims of this massacre.
[12:54] Speaker 2: We learned tonight that Boris and severa German are the
[12:58] Speaker 2: two people who paid with them their lives to try
[13:01] Speaker 2: to prevent what happened. They save lives by preventing even one, two, five,
[13:08] Speaker 2: ten thirty seconds of these cowards being able to take shots.
[13:13] Speaker 2: A statement from their family has just been released to
[13:16] Speaker 2: the media. While nothing can lessen the pain of losing
[13:19] Speaker 2: Boris and Sophia, we feel an overwhelming sense of pride
[13:22] Speaker 2: in their bravery and selflessness. This encapsulates who Boris and
[13:26] Speaker 2: Sophia were, people who instinctively and selflessly tried to help others.
[13:31] Speaker 2: This statement continues in part, we are deeply grateful for
[13:33] Speaker 2: the love and compassion and support that has been shown
[13:35] Speaker 2: to our family during this unimaginable time. There's even more
[13:40] Speaker 2: information about the bravery of police two nights ago, and.
[13:46] Speaker 16: As the bravery of the bystanders was celebrated today, the
[13:48] Speaker 16: New South Wales Premier said he felt compelled to hit
[13:52] Speaker 16: back at criticisms and questions about the bravery of the
[13:56] Speaker 16: New South Wales Police.
[13:58] Speaker 1: Chris Men's visibly furious.
[14:00] Speaker 3: They weren't shot in the back as they were running away.
[14:02] Speaker 17: They were shot in the front.
[14:03] Speaker 12: New South Wales Police officers, some of whom had been
[14:06] Speaker 12: in the job for.
[14:07] Speaker 15: A number of months, put their lives on the line
[14:11] Speaker 15: to save people in this state.
[14:12] Speaker 13: The pair arriving as the government opened fire on this
[14:15] Speaker 13: marked vehicle, deliberately targeting police.
[14:18] Speaker 1: They're in the cab of a twin cabboard.
[14:19] Speaker 18: I've coat struck and there's rounds that have penetrated the
[14:22] Speaker 18: windshield of that car.
[14:23] Speaker 1: That's ay caliber evident would have been horrific.
[14:26] Speaker 2: Prime Minister, you talk about unity, we are already united.
[14:29] Speaker 2: We are united against this crime. We are united against
[14:33] Speaker 2: the hate behind it. We are united behind the people
[14:35] Speaker 2: who save lives, and we are united behind the victims.
[14:39] Speaker 2: That beautiful little girl, Matilda, ten years old. We've all
[14:43] Speaker 2: imagined the ten year old in our life. Her family
[14:49] Speaker 2: have appeared to the Bondo vigil today this evening, as
[14:53] Speaker 2: another candid was lit on the Minora as it was
[14:56] Speaker 2: on Sunday, Matilda's mother spoke to the assembled in bondies.
[15:03] Speaker 11: Mom and Miss Michael said, you feel some train I
[15:09] Speaker 11: wrought from you. Pray My oldest son, a kid, and
[15:13] Speaker 11: it was so paid business. He's not said right now,
[15:17] Speaker 11: he's not fighting for his land and he's safe here.
[15:22] Speaker 11: And I couldn't imagine that.
[15:23] Speaker 6: I knew, of course I do here. It's it's just Lan.
[15:33] Speaker 2: Matilda's brother also had the bravery to speak. Remember this
[15:37] Speaker 2: happened on Sunday night, and it's only Tuesday night.
[15:44] Speaker 10: Five Matilda's brother.
[15:48] Speaker 6: The one thing that Bristoll comfort have is that.
[15:54] Speaker 14: Whenever I would ask Matilda if she if if she
[15:58] Speaker 14: knew that I loved her, she would media which.
[16:01] Speaker 6: Said, yes, sir, should you she was loved?
[16:04] Speaker 2: She wasn't a love See, Prime Minister, you speak of unity,
[16:12] Speaker 2: the need of the country to be held together as
[16:15] Speaker 2: if something is ever going to tear it apart. Moments
[16:19] Speaker 2: like this test our character and we always excel. Prime Minister.
[16:24] Speaker 2: We are united against this crime, Prime Minister. We are
[16:27] Speaker 2: united against the hate behind this crime. Prime Minister. We
[16:30] Speaker 2: are united behind the people who save lives, behind the victims,
[16:34] Speaker 2: and we are united behind.
[16:36] Speaker 1: Our community, not their community. Our community.
[16:40] Speaker 2: Jewish Australians are as Australian as anyone else, from the
[16:44] Speaker 2: back of Burke to the middle of the Northern Territory.
[16:47] Speaker 1: It is not their community. It is our community.
[16:51] Speaker 2: And the families that have been left behind are critical
[16:53] Speaker 2: of your government because you have treated them as are
[16:56] Speaker 2: they not an.
[16:58] Speaker 9: Our Australian government is to blame. They've had the warning signs.
[17:03] Speaker 9: For so long the Jewish community has been begging and
[17:07] Speaker 9: begging and begging for action. They have failed us, they
[17:10] Speaker 9: have betrayed us, and they have so much innocent blood
[17:14] Speaker 9: on their hands.
[17:15] Speaker 2: I repeat on the behalf of all Australians who are
[17:20] Speaker 2: desperate for a righteous anger from the Prime Minister, not
[17:23] Speaker 2: merely mouth pieceweek words to manage a moment. We are
[17:28] Speaker 2: united against this crime, against the hate behind it, behind
[17:35] Speaker 2: the people who save lives. We are unified behind and
[17:39] Speaker 2: with the families and the victims, and we are united
[17:44] Speaker 2: behind our community. Jonathan Lee excellent reporter with us at
[17:51] Speaker 2: Sky News. He has been doing great work, particularly in
[17:54] Speaker 2: Western Sydney, but he joins us now from Bondy today. Jonathan,
[17:58] Speaker 2: you've already done work when it came to having a
[18:00] Speaker 2: look at controversial preachers. Others have made plenty of connections.
[18:05] Speaker 2: You've spoken of those two, to the younger of the
[18:09] Speaker 2: two who have committed this crime. But when you were
[18:12] Speaker 2: in Western Sydney today at the very front of the
[18:15] Speaker 2: religious center, it seemed like you were being heckled.
[18:18] Speaker 1: What were they saying?
[18:22] Speaker 5: Well, good evening to you, Paul from Bondai. I guess
[18:25] Speaker 5: you some would come to expect certain things when you're
[18:28] Speaker 5: in certain environments. It was a religious prayer room the
[18:31] Speaker 5: Almadina Dawis Center, where we'd previously gone to conduct interviews
[18:35] Speaker 5: as part of our Clash of Faiths special We were
[18:40] Speaker 5: certainly told from the beginning that we weren't invited inside.
[18:42] Speaker 5: In fact, people denied knowing the preacher who we'd previously interviewed. Inside,
[18:47] Speaker 5: we were asked to step off the property.
[18:49] Speaker 19: We did that.
[18:50] Speaker 5: Another person outside told us we weren't allowed to film
[18:52] Speaker 5: anyone on the public street walking past. And then when
[18:55] Speaker 5: we began our cross, a gentleman walked past me, and
[18:58] Speaker 5: I suspect that it might be a problem. He came
[19:00] Speaker 5: back from my left, Another of his friends came from
[19:02] Speaker 5: the right, and then they both emerged on the right,
[19:05] Speaker 5: and they were making their feelings very well known when
[19:08] Speaker 5: it came to Sky News Palestine Israel. I'll be honest,
[19:11] Speaker 5: it was very hard to hear what they were saying.
[19:13] Speaker 5: I could certainly get a sense that there were lace
[19:16] Speaker 5: with profanities, but it was one of those environments that
[19:19] Speaker 5: could be described as prickly at best, and it was
[19:22] Speaker 5: just it was just, I suppose, sadly what I was
[19:25] Speaker 5: expecting out there, Paul.
[19:27] Speaker 1: This is the thing. I mean, this is part of
[19:29] Speaker 1: the story. Obviously, the.
[19:32] Speaker 2: Emotion being shown in Bondai, it's the focus, right, But
[19:35] Speaker 2: we've got to be able to walk, chew gum and
[19:37] Speaker 2: juggle at the same time. There are many elements of
[19:39] Speaker 2: all of this, and I don't want those details to
[19:42] Speaker 2: fall away in the early days. So tell us a
[19:43] Speaker 2: bit more here about this preacher and about what you
[19:47] Speaker 2: were able to learn.
[19:51] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[19:51] Speaker 5: Well, it's interesting because when we sat down and spoke
[19:54] Speaker 5: with him, he made the very point very clearly to
[19:56] Speaker 5: us that when it comes to being Islamic, your job
[20:00] Speaker 5: isn't to follow a democratic rule of law.
[20:01] Speaker 6: It's not your job to follow the police.
[20:03] Speaker 5: Necessarily, especially not the government, that their instructions comes from
[20:08] Speaker 5: a higher being, and that his job is not to
[20:11] Speaker 5: interpret religious texts. It's to pass on the religious texts
[20:13] Speaker 5: that have been handed down through centuries. There's not the ability.
[20:17] Speaker 5: He made the point when it comes to a modern
[20:19] Speaker 5: multicultural sense of Islam that it is hard line, what
[20:23] Speaker 5: we might call fundamentalist or radical. And he also made
[20:26] Speaker 5: the point very clearly to us that he was seeing
[20:28] Speaker 5: his flock grow and that people were coming to his
[20:31] Speaker 5: faith at a time when Christianity was dying, so there
[20:34] Speaker 5: was very much a passion in his voice. We spoke
[20:36] Speaker 5: very calmly as part of that class of faith's interview,
[20:40] Speaker 5: but there was certainly no resigning from his beliefs. Interestingly, though,
[20:45] Speaker 5: when I spoke to a rabbi here today, Elo Feldman,
[20:48] Speaker 5: he made the point that when it came to being
[20:51] Speaker 5: able to have freedom of speech, that there must be limits.
[20:56] Speaker 5: Have a listen to what he says, because it goes
[20:58] Speaker 5: to a broader conversation we need to have around where
[21:02] Speaker 5: a democracy and rule of law draw a line in
[21:05] Speaker 5: the sand.
[21:07] Speaker 18: Free speech, like everything else in life, has to have limitations.
[21:11] Speaker 18: Every good thing in life has limitations. And I have
[21:14] Speaker 18: hope for his then, and actually you're talking to a rabbi.
[21:16] Speaker 18: I've hoped for his then.
[21:16] Speaker 1: I think.
[21:19] Speaker 18: The brutality that was done in the name of Christianity
[21:22] Speaker 18: during the Middle Ages was horrific, and yet Christianity as
[21:26] Speaker 18: a whole has matured to a peaceful religion that doesn't
[21:32] Speaker 18: interpret any of those texts in a violent way.
[21:36] Speaker 1: This is the thing, John O.
[21:37] Speaker 2: Isn't it about the reality that the laws of the
[21:39] Speaker 2: land have to supersede the laws of a religion, and
[21:43] Speaker 2: if that becomes too problematic for you, then this is
[21:46] Speaker 2: not going to be the joint for you, regardless of
[21:47] Speaker 2: what and where those texts are. I know you've got
[21:50] Speaker 2: some commitments overseas, but again to that point, these are
[21:53] Speaker 2: the big and deep issues we've got to deal with
[21:55] Speaker 2: and we can't just paper it over with look the
[21:58] Speaker 2: other way.
[22:01] Speaker 5: Now you can't. And when you ask what he said,
[22:03] Speaker 5: part of what his sermon was, he said, a day
[22:05] Speaker 5: will come when the stones and the trees will say, oh, Muslim,
[22:08] Speaker 5: there is a Jew behind me.
[22:09] Speaker 12: Come and kill him.
[22:11] Speaker 5: So you can ever think about that, whether that crosses
[22:13] Speaker 5: a fundamentalist line in the sand for modern multicultural Australia.
[22:16] Speaker 5: I want to leave you with one final interview we did.
[22:18] Speaker 5: A gentleman walked across the road and came to speak
[22:21] Speaker 5: to us before we packed down and left. He was
[22:23] Speaker 5: from Gaza, he was Palestinian. He wanted to make very
[22:27] Speaker 5: clear to us that he stood with Israelis and the
[22:30] Speaker 5: Jews which had been I should say, make they're very clear.
[22:33] Speaker 5: He stood with the Jews who'd been killed here, those
[22:36] Speaker 5: of Jewish faith, and made the point that there wasn't
[22:39] Speaker 5: a place for bombs and bloodshed in Australia that people
[22:42] Speaker 5: had left their conflict behind hoping for peace and prosperity.
[22:46] Speaker 6: Have a listened.
[22:50] Speaker 14: We should as a communitis as all communitis are like Jewish, Palestinian, Muslim, Indian,
[22:58] Speaker 14: all communities should educate our kids. They're respectful and be
[23:05] Speaker 14: a respectful minders, educate our kids. All communities here are
[23:09] Speaker 14: welcome and we not attack anyone regarding their religience.
[23:14] Speaker 1: John excellent reporting. Thank you so much, Jonathan Lee.
[23:17] Speaker 2: One of the best in the business and certainly doing
[23:19] Speaker 2: great work all over Sydney from the east to the west,
[23:22] Speaker 2: from members of the Islami community, members of the Jewish community,
[23:26] Speaker 2: and of course keeping an eye on the entire country.
[23:29] Speaker 2: This is the adult chats we have to have each
[23:31] Speaker 2: and every night. There are going to be limits and
[23:35] Speaker 2: obviously there's a difference between some of the stuff that's
[23:37] Speaker 2: being barked on social media, but we're going to have
[23:40] Speaker 2: the chats because they absolutely have.
[23:41] Speaker 1: To also, as always have absolute admiration.
[23:45] Speaker 2: This show is pro police, it is pro the emergency services,
[23:48] Speaker 2: it's pro the doctors, it's pro the nurses. Why because
[23:51] Speaker 2: these are the people who have chosen with their talents
[23:54] Speaker 2: to run towards trouble. The stories in and around how
[23:58] Speaker 2: the health system from those parami all the way through
[24:01] Speaker 2: to the doctors and nurses who are still treating patients
[24:04] Speaker 2: is an extraordinary example. Because remember this was a Sunday afternoon,
[24:08] Speaker 2: a weeken, a bit out from Christmas, when things theoretically
[24:11] Speaker 2: are starting to calm down. The exact opposite, of course,
[24:14] Speaker 2: is what happened. The Health Minister is Ryan Park and
[24:17] Speaker 2: we spoke a bit earlier.
[24:19] Speaker 6: Paul.
[24:20] Speaker 19: I'm just so proud of them that I've had the
[24:22] Speaker 19: opportunity over the last twenty four hours to visit a
[24:25] Speaker 19: number of hospitals where we've still got critical and seriously
[24:29] Speaker 19: injured patients, just to thank the staff on behalf of
[24:32] Speaker 19: a very very grateful state and indeed a nation. What
[24:36] Speaker 19: they did over the course of thirty six hours to
[24:40] Speaker 19: get and retrieve these patients from harm, to do the
[24:43] Speaker 19: pre medical work with their paramedics before they got to
[24:47] Speaker 19: the hospital, and then the clinical work inside the hospital,
[24:51] Speaker 19: including life saving surgery, has been nothing short of outstanding.
[24:55] Speaker 19: And I'm deeply proud, and I know the nation's deeply
[24:57] Speaker 19: proud of them now I.
[24:59] Speaker 2: Know there's been plans a long time for if something
[25:01] Speaker 2: terrible happens, how the system responds, but when it is
[25:05] Speaker 2: real time, and obviously triaging an emergency is about keeping
[25:10] Speaker 2: emotions out of things. But again the plan seemed to
[25:16] Speaker 2: work virtually perfectly the surging happened. Give us an idea
[25:20] Speaker 2: about how the system responded in say, those first couple
[25:24] Speaker 2: of hours.
[25:27] Speaker 6: Yeah, those first couple of hours were critical.
[25:29] Speaker 19: For a start, we had about one hundred ambulance and
[25:32] Speaker 19: paramedic personnel out at Bondi treating patients in what you
[25:36] Speaker 19: saw a makeshift type of hospital.
[25:38] Speaker 6: And triage area.
[25:40] Speaker 19: From there, we transported patients into a number of hospitals across.
[25:44] Speaker 6: Sydney that included Saint Vincent's, Saint.
[25:47] Speaker 19: George RPA, those big hospitals across the system. And then
[25:52] Speaker 19: from there we started to make sure that we treated
[25:55] Speaker 19: those patients who needed life SAG saving surgery, that even
[26:00] Speaker 19: many of them had surgery immediately or that evening. We
[26:03] Speaker 19: even Paul had doctors coming in. They weren't on roster.
[26:07] Speaker 19: They were coming in running into the hospital to help
[26:11] Speaker 19: out staff, clinicians, nurses.
[26:14] Speaker 6: Just willing to put their hand up. We even heard a.
[26:16] Speaker 19: Story of a senior clinician this morning from Prince of
[26:20] Speaker 19: Wales who was out and about going for a run.
[26:23] Speaker 6: He made his way into the facility just to help out.
[26:27] Speaker 19: I mean, it's just phenomenal what you hear and when
[26:31] Speaker 19: you go around and thank the staff. This was a
[26:33] Speaker 19: system that responded so well at the country's worst of times.
[26:38] Speaker 19: What I want people to have is that they've got
[26:40] Speaker 19: a brilliant health system. It's not perfect. We have struggles
[26:43] Speaker 19: every day. I know that is the Health Minister. But
[26:46] Speaker 19: boy oh boy, we can be proud of the men
[26:48] Speaker 19: and women who are our healthcare professionals right across our
[26:51] Speaker 19: hospitals here in New South Wales.
[26:53] Speaker 2: Now I agree completely as you say, big system, lots
[26:56] Speaker 2: of it, but at moments like this when the total focus, yeah,
[27:00] Speaker 2: it is something for us all to be very proud of.
[27:02] Speaker 2: I don't know if you're in a position to answer
[27:04] Speaker 2: this question, but I have to ask, are there children
[27:07] Speaker 2: that are still inside hospital as a result of injuries
[27:11] Speaker 2: right now?
[27:13] Speaker 9: Yes?
[27:13] Speaker 6: There are. This morning I went to Sydney Children's Hospital
[27:17] Speaker 6: at Ramwick.
[27:18] Speaker 19: I've been making an effort over the course of the
[27:20] Speaker 19: last twenty four hours to visit as many hospitals and
[27:23] Speaker 19: speak to the staff as I can, just to thank them.
[27:26] Speaker 19: And I had an opportunity to get an update on
[27:28] Speaker 19: the three children who were at that hospital still and
[27:32] Speaker 19: tragically we lost one patient as a result of this
[27:36] Speaker 19: horrific in this horrific.
[27:38] Speaker 6: Incident at Bondi. But those three patients are doing well.
[27:42] Speaker 19: They're still in hospital, so they've got a long road,
[27:44] Speaker 19: they've got a long road ahead, but they're doing well
[27:46] Speaker 19: and they're getting the very best of care and a
[27:48] Speaker 19: brand new facility at Ramwick. And just listening to the staff,
[27:53] Speaker 19: they were just incredible the way in which they looked
[27:55] Speaker 19: after those patients. Paul, just remarkable what they did, and
[28:00] Speaker 19: I know how grateful the community is for their efforts.
[28:04] Speaker 2: And just finally, trauma and emotional trauma for the emergency services.
[28:10] Speaker 2: I certainly have met paramedics over the years, some of
[28:13] Speaker 2: whom were able to make it their entire professional life,
[28:16] Speaker 2: some of whom had to cut it short because of
[28:18] Speaker 2: the trauma that is seen. For the people that have
[28:21] Speaker 2: seen what they have seen, be it either collecting people
[28:24] Speaker 2: in Bondai or dealing with what they've been dealing with
[28:27] Speaker 2: over the past couple of days, how does the system
[28:29] Speaker 2: support them when there's a chance for things to come down.
[28:35] Speaker 19: It's a really great question and I'm so glad you're
[28:37] Speaker 19: asking about it because that's something really important to me.
[28:40] Speaker 19: On Sunday night, Paul I traveled up from where I
[28:43] Speaker 19: live in Wollongong and went to Randwick Ambulance Station and
[28:46] Speaker 19: met with the paramedics who had just come off the
[28:49] Speaker 19: scene at Bondai. And you could see already that many
[28:52] Speaker 19: of them were dealing with it in different ways. And
[28:55] Speaker 19: one of the things I said to them is we've
[28:57] Speaker 19: got support systems in place.
[29:00] Speaker 6: I want you to use it. I don't want you
[29:01] Speaker 6: to try and deal with this alone.
[29:03] Speaker 19: Although they're paramedics and they see lots of trauma throughout
[29:06] Speaker 19: the course of their career, this was something else.
[29:09] Speaker 6: This was something that we as Austrains never expected.
[29:12] Speaker 19: So we've got a number of systems internally to provide
[29:15] Speaker 19: support to our frontline healthcare professionals. But it's also important
[29:20] Speaker 19: for their mates to look out for them, and I
[29:22] Speaker 19: just encouraged all of them not to try and process alone.
[29:25] Speaker 6: Put your hand up if you're.
[29:26] Speaker 19: Struggling, and that may be the hours after, the days
[29:30] Speaker 19: after the weeks after, the months after. Things happen in
[29:33] Speaker 19: various ways, but we'll make sure that we wrap our
[29:35] Speaker 19: arms around those people in the same way that we
[29:38] Speaker 19: want to wrap our arms around the Jewish community who
[29:40] Speaker 19: have been through an absolute horrific event.
[29:44] Speaker 2: Well, Ryan, yourself, the Premiere are all on board, doing
[29:47] Speaker 2: a great job. We're really proud that you are the
[29:49] Speaker 2: people in charge of the system and the people that
[29:51] Speaker 2: are actually on the front lines as well. We are
[29:53] Speaker 2: incredibly thankful for them. I appreciate the chat, Minister, Thank
[29:56] Speaker 2: you so much.
[29:59] Speaker 6: Thank you.
[29:59] Speaker 2: Paul Ryan Parked, the Health minister in New South Wales.
[30:03] Speaker 2: Now continuing the tough conversations the ones who won't see
[30:06] Speaker 2: anywhere else at a moment and insider when it comes
[30:09] Speaker 2: to the police. Our dear friend Nigel Ferras joins us
[30:11] Speaker 2: from the United Kingdom as people, as darkness is now
[30:16] Speaker 2: besetting Bondai, remember those who have been taken by evil.
[30:27] Speaker 2: Really important that on times like this that we talk
[30:30] Speaker 2: to people who know way more than those of us
[30:32] Speaker 2: that are trying to keep across a lot of the detail.
[30:35] Speaker 2: Perfect example of that's Peter Maroney, form of police detective,
[30:38] Speaker 2: plenty of experience in and around counter terrorism. You may
[30:42] Speaker 2: well have seen him in conversation with Gary Jubilin in
[30:45] Speaker 2: his podcast a bit earlier in the day. He has
[30:48] Speaker 2: taken time out of a very busy time of trying
[30:50] Speaker 2: to work out and having a discussion about what's going
[30:52] Speaker 2: on to join us here tonight.
[30:54] Speaker 1: Peter Pursley, thank you for joining us.
[30:56] Speaker 2: Thanks for having me as a bloke who put in
[30:58] Speaker 2: the hard yards trying to fight terrorism, understand all the
[31:02] Speaker 2: rest of it. How important is it that everyone understands
[31:06] Speaker 2: that there is an anger within the police force and
[31:11] Speaker 2: the intelligence agencies, that they've caught ninety nine point nine
[31:15] Speaker 2: percent of stuff in the past.
[31:17] Speaker 17: Yeah, and that this has happened. It tears them up inside. Yeah,
[31:21] Speaker 17: look mate, it will. It's inevitable, right. You don't want
[31:24] Speaker 17: this to unfold on your watch. You don't want to
[31:27] Speaker 17: be the one that missed that vital clue or that
[31:29] Speaker 17: vital piece of information. And that's not anything new, you know.
[31:32] Speaker 17: We can go all the way back to two thousand
[31:34] Speaker 17: and fourteen with operational pandemics, operation pandemics where we're raising
[31:39] Speaker 17: the clock and looking for devices and it's a sinking feeling.
[31:43] Speaker 17: And I have no doubt that the men and women
[31:45] Speaker 17: of Asia, of the New South Wales Police, austral and
[31:48] Speaker 17: Federal Police. They're going to be feeling it now. Some
[31:52] Speaker 17: people out there going, well, they missed and they got
[31:54] Speaker 17: it wrong. They know that now there's going to be
[31:58] Speaker 17: questions asked, and rightly so, absolutely rightly so. But I
[32:02] Speaker 17: still can't help but feel that they will soul search
[32:06] Speaker 17: and some of these things will haunt.
[32:07] Speaker 1: Them now for the rest of their life because again, and.
[32:11] Speaker 2: Tell me how much of this you can or can't
[32:13] Speaker 2: talk about. But sorry about that. I don't know what
[32:15] Speaker 2: that footage is.
[32:16] Speaker 1: That's the Balley situation. I think from a couple of
[32:19] Speaker 1: years ago. Sorry, guys, I don't know why that's on
[32:21] Speaker 1: the camera right now.
[32:22] Speaker 2: Sorry Peter, but what I sorry, this is some footage
[32:26] Speaker 2: from BONDI I apologize it wasn't where we're doing it, Okay,
[32:30] Speaker 2: So Peter, what I am quite interested in to talk
[32:34] Speaker 2: about here is a father and son yep, right, and
[32:39] Speaker 2: obviously a father and son who, as we have heard
[32:41] Speaker 2: say to their family, we're going fishing. Right, They're obviously
[32:45] Speaker 2: very tight knit and therefore presumably are keeping it amongst themselves.
[32:51] Speaker 2: These aren't people who are leaving obvious at this point
[32:53] Speaker 2: in time, digital trails or anything like that. Yes, there's
[32:57] Speaker 2: some video of the sun and some odiicalization that had
[33:01] Speaker 2: been already on the radar.
[33:03] Speaker 16: So.
[33:05] Speaker 2: Not how hard, But how do you even begin to
[33:08] Speaker 2: try to keep a tab on what might be happening
[33:11] Speaker 2: in a garage every night for six weeks or six months.
[33:15] Speaker 17: Yeah, it's a good point, a good question. Look, there's
[33:17] Speaker 17: a number of warning signs, a number of indicators that
[33:20] Speaker 17: we'll look for. When we were starting out incounter terrorism
[33:23] Speaker 17: all those years ago, Look, we'd go to uniform police
[33:26] Speaker 17: and we'd start to develop a range of things that
[33:28] Speaker 17: we'd look for. We'd start to develop a number of
[33:30] Speaker 17: training packages that we would get out there to uniform
[33:32] Speaker 17: police that we would try to give them ideas on
[33:36] Speaker 17: what to look for.
[33:37] Speaker 1: Now.
[33:38] Speaker 17: For example, just because you walked into a home and
[33:40] Speaker 17: there was a picture of bin laden in its day,
[33:42] Speaker 17: didn't make that person a terrorist. There will be a
[33:45] Speaker 17: number of other signs, and that could be something as
[33:47] Speaker 17: simple as withdrawal, change of appearance, change of friendships groups.
[33:53] Speaker 17: There'll be a whole number of indicators that would give
[33:56] Speaker 17: a person close to that loved one an idea that
[33:59] Speaker 17: something's not right here, something starting to shift off the
[34:02] Speaker 17: base of where they would be. And it's not dissimilar
[34:04] Speaker 17: that we talked to schools today around warning signs indicators
[34:08] Speaker 17: to look for in terms of when a student moves
[34:10] Speaker 17: off a baseline, what are we looking for?
[34:13] Speaker 1: There's what we'll call the pathway to violence.
[34:15] Speaker 17: So again, these are all little indicators, little changes of
[34:18] Speaker 17: behavior that will flag I would be reasonably comfortable that
[34:24] Speaker 17: when we get the opportunity to speak to the family,
[34:28] Speaker 17: when they get the opportunity to start to speak to
[34:30] Speaker 17: some friends, in hindsight, a number of things are going
[34:33] Speaker 17: to come to the surface. The warning signs, I have
[34:36] Speaker 17: no doubt with hindsight, are going to be there, and
[34:39] Speaker 17: they will be probably their front and center and fairly obvious,
[34:43] Speaker 17: I think, unfortunately.
[34:44] Speaker 2: And then we've seen how when communities want to see something,
[34:50] Speaker 2: they'll say something. Right, as I was said before, right,
[34:53] Speaker 2: we remember twenty years ago, in and around everything to
[34:56] Speaker 2: do with with September eleven, the vigilance about I've seen
[34:59] Speaker 2: a bag here, a package air and this guard's in
[35:01] Speaker 2: the wrong spot. We've seen the Karen version of that,
[35:04] Speaker 2: which is during COVID, which is that person's one minute
[35:07] Speaker 2: out later, So the surveillance of the community can be
[35:10] Speaker 2: something that becomes quite a powerful weapon.
[35:13] Speaker 1: Definitely, is there part of.
[35:16] Speaker 2: Us that as a community that may well have just
[35:18] Speaker 2: got a little bit complacent in that we all know
[35:21] Speaker 2: if something dodges happened across the road. We know it's
[35:24] Speaker 2: also a week out from Christmas and I'm on the
[35:26] Speaker 2: way the Christmas party is other stuff that I'm starting
[35:28] Speaker 2: to do. Again, to all the good people watching in
[35:32] Speaker 2: whatever community, how important is it that they stay as
[35:35] Speaker 2: head on a swivel as they were a year ago.
[35:37] Speaker 17: Oh look, absolutely, And it doesn't matter whether we're going
[35:40] Speaker 17: to talk about terrorism and we could be simply talking
[35:41] Speaker 17: about neighborhood crime. I know that's a very big comparison,
[35:45] Speaker 17: but the police can only do so much intelligence law
[35:50] Speaker 17: enforcement as they've only got so much capability, so much electronics,
[35:54] Speaker 17: so many resources. We've got to also as members of
[35:57] Speaker 17: the community, irrespective of what community from We're off from
[36:00] Speaker 17: the Australian community, so we do have an obligation to
[36:03] Speaker 17: be conscious of what's around there. Report that there's plenty
[36:06] Speaker 17: of information out there made in terms of the work
[36:09] Speaker 17: that we've been doing over the last couple of years
[36:11] Speaker 17: with schools around, why won't kids who know potentially that
[36:16] Speaker 17: a person's coming to commit harm at their school, why
[36:19] Speaker 17: won't they come forward? And it's not too dissimilar to
[36:21] Speaker 17: looking at that from say, an Islamic point of view
[36:24] Speaker 17: or far right whatever, whichever one we want to pick,
[36:27] Speaker 17: is that some people say, I don't want to report it.
[36:30] Speaker 17: I don't want to look silly, I don't want to
[36:32] Speaker 17: make a mistake. I don't want to get a person
[36:34] Speaker 17: into trouble. So all of those things are there, and
[36:36] Speaker 17: what I say to that is make the call and
[36:39] Speaker 17: put the problem onto the police. Your one piece of
[36:42] Speaker 17: information might look in isolation, quite innocuous to you and nothing,
[36:47] Speaker 17: but when that one piece of information comes in, it
[36:49] Speaker 17: gets added to, invariable, invariably, heaps of other pieces of
[36:53] Speaker 17: information that help law enforcement form a bigger picture. And
[36:57] Speaker 17: it's that picture that we want them to focus on.
[37:00] Speaker 17: One bit of information could help in.
[37:01] Speaker 2: You said, wells, they've had police commissioners literally early in
[37:05] Speaker 2: their career, were crawling through spaces and putting surveillance cameras
[37:10] Speaker 2: and microphones in place. There are people that have had
[37:12] Speaker 2: higher profile counter terrorism roles. I'm not entirely sure about
[37:16] Speaker 2: the current buyer of the current leadership, But are we
[37:20] Speaker 2: as plugged in at the top as maybe we were
[37:24] Speaker 2: five ten years ago about this being an ongoing part
[37:28] Speaker 2: of the responsibility of a police force.
[37:31] Speaker 17: It's a fair question to ask you. I certainly know
[37:34] Speaker 17: that there's a critical incident occurring at the moment investigation.
[37:36] Speaker 17: There will be a coronial inquest coming, and that's certainly
[37:38] Speaker 17: going to be part of it. It's probably a question, Paul,
[37:43] Speaker 17: I really probably can't answer directly to you, made in
[37:45] Speaker 17: the sense that I'm not along those upper echelons that
[37:48] Speaker 17: are there. Look, mal Lanion comes with a fairly formidable career,
[37:54] Speaker 17: I think, I said today to a couple of other outlets.
[37:56] Speaker 17: He's a very smart man. He will in turn seek
[38:00] Speaker 17: advice from those that are around him. But we have seen,
[38:03] Speaker 17: to your point, a lot of senior police exit over
[38:06] Speaker 17: the last two three four years, and that does leave
[38:09] Speaker 17: a gap at the top.
[38:10] Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing I mean, apart from senior already
[38:12] Speaker 2: of being able to be in leadership positions, the muscle
[38:16] Speaker 2: memory of the groundwork from five ten, twenty years ago,
[38:19] Speaker 2: last one before we finished year, A lot of sort
[38:22] Speaker 2: of armchair experts about what the police did and didn't do. Yes,
[38:26] Speaker 2: there were two police officers that were there, but for
[38:28] Speaker 2: goodness sake, shots are coming their way.
[38:30] Speaker 1: We know that a plane closed. Police officer is believed
[38:32] Speaker 1: to be the one who took the fatal shot on
[38:35] Speaker 1: the father.
[38:38] Speaker 2: Yes, it took five minutes, but for goodness sake, like
[38:41] Speaker 2: the turn up in five minutes.
[38:43] Speaker 1: Was the riot squad with rifles. To me, this is
[38:46] Speaker 1: what happens.
[38:46] Speaker 2: If you don't know where it's going to be, you
[38:48] Speaker 2: have to be able to respond and unless there is,
[38:51] Speaker 2: you know, an armory at the end of the street,
[38:53] Speaker 2: there's going to be a couple of minutes.
[38:55] Speaker 1: How do you feel about the response.
[38:57] Speaker 17: Yeah, Look, from everything that I understand about the response,
[39:00] Speaker 17: they did everything they.
[39:01] Speaker 1: Could possibly do.
[39:01] Speaker 17: If we take that back a few steps, let's go
[39:04] Speaker 17: back to the first couple of TRIPLEO calls, and let's
[39:06] Speaker 17: be honest. He there won't be one or two triplo calls, right,
[39:08] Speaker 17: there would have been dozens, if not hundreds. Look at
[39:11] Speaker 17: the sheer volume of footage that's out there and multiply
[39:14] Speaker 17: that by a triplo corps. So what does that mean
[39:16] Speaker 17: to us responding? What it is is invariably everyone's going
[39:19] Speaker 17: to see things slightly different. I might see you in
[39:22] Speaker 17: a certain position. Another call is going to see you
[39:24] Speaker 17: moving along that roadway. That information comes into police, Yes
[39:28] Speaker 17: it's delayed, but as a responding police officer, I've then
[39:31] Speaker 17: got to make that determination of how many offenders are
[39:34] Speaker 17: actually out there, what weapons are they armed with, and
[39:37] Speaker 17: where have they taken position. Now the weaponry becomes exceptionally important,
[39:40] Speaker 17: as we know, if it's a pistol, then I may
[39:42] Speaker 17: be able to negotiate and getting closer. If, as it was,
[39:45] Speaker 17: as we saw in that footage, rifle, they ain't going
[39:49] Speaker 17: to win. And particularly with someone who knows what he's
[39:51] Speaker 17: doing with it. He's got a long arm, he's got
[39:53] Speaker 17: a high calibered weapon, he's got a scope on the
[39:55] Speaker 17: top of it. He is at the tactical advantages. On
[39:58] Speaker 17: top of a bridge, is at that tactically advantage. So
[40:01] Speaker 17: and as I've said, if the police rushed in and
[40:03] Speaker 17: got taken out, what that then permitted him to do
[40:07] Speaker 17: is take more time and shoot more people. So it
[40:10] Speaker 17: took its time, and it is so sad and unfortunate,
[40:13] Speaker 17: but I don't know what more they could have done.
[40:15] Speaker 2: Peter I appreciate the insight and listener Gary's podcast. It's
[40:18] Speaker 2: a much longer, more detailed conversation. I wanted to point
[40:21] Speaker 2: you to it. Peter, thank you for my pleasure to
[40:22] Speaker 2: appreciate it. Thank you very much.
[40:23] Speaker 1: Niger Fras joins us from the United Kingdom.
[40:26] Speaker 2: Next here on pul Murray Life, Nigel Ferras is on
[40:34] Speaker 2: his way to being the next Prime Minister in the
[40:36] Speaker 2: United Kingdom. He has made comments publicly about what happened
[40:39] Speaker 2: in Bondi, but these are his first here in Australian media.
[40:42] Speaker 2: The only place you'll seem each and every week is
[40:44] Speaker 2: here on a Tuesday, not on PULLL Murray Live.
[40:46] Speaker 1: He joins us.
[40:47] Speaker 2: Now the leader of the Reform Party, Nigel, Australia is
[40:50] Speaker 2: now added to the list of these sorts of terrorist attacks.
[40:54] Speaker 2: Your response to what's happened in Bondai and fifteen souls taken, I.
[41:02] Speaker 7: Was horrified, but not in the least bit surprised. If
[41:06] Speaker 7: there's any country in the Western world that has allowed
[41:09] Speaker 7: radicalism to develop, that has allowed hate preachers marches at
[41:14] Speaker 7: which appalling things have been said. In fact, everything that's
[41:17] Speaker 7: happened since the October the seventh attacks and we remember
[41:20] Speaker 7: what happened on Sydney harbor Bridge the next day. Now,
[41:24] Speaker 7: I think actually in Australia, of all the western countries,
[41:27] Speaker 7: we've seen fire bombings, we've seen threats, we see graffiti,
[41:32] Speaker 7: we see a Jewish community in Sydney virtually under siege.
[41:37] Speaker 7: So if there was any country in which it was
[41:39] Speaker 7: going to happen, I'm sorry to say that Australia was
[41:42] Speaker 7: top of the list. And you add to that the
[41:45] Speaker 7: completely unnecessary recognition of a Palestinian state, whatever that is
[41:49] Speaker 7: supposed to mean at this moment in time, and you
[41:53] Speaker 7: have an Australian Prime Minister saying this was an attack
[41:55] Speaker 7: on all Australians. No, it wasn't, absolutely not. This was
[41:59] Speaker 7: a specific, vic motivated attacked against the Australian Jewish community.
[42:05] Speaker 7: That is what it's all about. And from what I
[42:08] Speaker 7: can see, the authorities in Australia have done very very
[42:12] Speaker 7: little over the last two years to stop the growth
[42:15] Speaker 7: a really radical, dangerous extremism. And I don't say any
[42:19] Speaker 7: of that from a position of complacency. It just appears
[42:22] Speaker 7: to me the catalog of events that led up to
[42:25] Speaker 7: this are worse in Australia than any other Western country.
[42:31] Speaker 1: I've spent some time talking tonight about the Prime Minister.
[42:33] Speaker 2: One of the refrains that he is using in many
[42:36] Speaker 2: in appearances about the need to keep the community together,
[42:39] Speaker 2: as if somehow it's being torn apart by those of
[42:44] Speaker 2: us who want to.
[42:44] Speaker 1: Point out what's going on here. That's just not true.
[42:48] Speaker 2: It's a you know, as younger people would say, it's
[42:50] Speaker 2: gas lighting, it's lying, it's bissing here. The truth is
[42:54] Speaker 2: is that, yes, weapons involve part of the picture. Thankfully
[42:57] Speaker 2: Australia has a different attitude to that than other parts
[43:00] Speaker 2: of the world. But radical Islam and being direct about
[43:04] Speaker 2: it and having frankly a rage inside you that seems
[43:08] Speaker 2: to be just completely lacking from our Prime minister. Again,
[43:11] Speaker 2: I don't want him to pretend to go off and
[43:13] Speaker 2: pretend that he's going to be rambo and kicking doors personally,
[43:16] Speaker 2: but he doesn't even seems as focused in his rage
[43:21] Speaker 2: as you would think the leader of a country that
[43:23] Speaker 2: has been abused like this would.
[43:30] Speaker 7: Extremism is allowed to flourish if the law is not
[43:34] Speaker 7: applied equally, and this is the point, you know, the
[43:38] Speaker 7: Prime Minister can talk about communities and community cohesion, but
[43:42] Speaker 7: one community, or at least the extreme elements of one
[43:45] Speaker 7: community are being allowed to say and do things that
[43:50] Speaker 7: no other community in Australia would be allowed to do.
[43:54] Speaker 7: You know, if a vicar at a local church in
[43:57] Speaker 7: Sydney this weekend advocates hatred and violence, you know what,
[44:01] Speaker 7: he'll be arrested in short order. And yet that has
[44:05] Speaker 7: been happening. We've got absolute evidence of mosques in Australia
[44:09] Speaker 7: where the most repulsive things have insightful things have been said.
[44:14] Speaker 7: So my message to your Prime Minister is it only
[44:17] Speaker 7: if you apply the law equally to every single religious
[44:21] Speaker 7: and ethnic group will you even begin to get a
[44:24] Speaker 7: handle on this problem.
[44:26] Speaker 2: We saw, you know, the madness that has been in
[44:29] Speaker 2: little little examples right and again it's not a direct line,
[44:34] Speaker 2: but again it's the message being sent about acceptable and
[44:37] Speaker 2: unacceptable behaviors right about. You know, people have a right
[44:41] Speaker 2: to protest, but the idea that oh, or they can
[44:43] Speaker 2: just go wherever they want in that protest, because the
[44:45] Speaker 2: fear is if we get in the way, then somehow
[44:47] Speaker 2: someone says to start kicking a door in Well, what
[44:50] Speaker 2: message does that begin to send about who, frankly are
[44:53] Speaker 2: the good guys and the bad guys in the conflict.
[44:56] Speaker 1: D'jare politics issue, dajure?
[44:59] Speaker 2: If you were the minister of the United Kingdom and
[45:01] Speaker 2: I get it, and this had happened in your country,
[45:05] Speaker 2: what would you be saying to the authorities as a
[45:08] Speaker 2: result if something like this, God forbid, did happen there.
[45:15] Speaker 7: Well, I'd say that marches that happen either in Melbourne
[45:19] Speaker 7: or in Birmingham, UK, marches at which people leading the
[45:23] Speaker 7: marches are able through loudhailers to call for global Infotada,
[45:29] Speaker 7: to cry out the chant from the River to the Sea,
[45:33] Speaker 7: I would say to the police that this is above
[45:37] Speaker 7: and beyond the rights of free speech in a public place.
[45:41] Speaker 7: This is literal incitement aimed around Israel, Zionism and jury
[45:49] Speaker 7: as a whole. I repeat the point I made a
[45:52] Speaker 7: minute ago. You know, if any other ethnic group was
[45:56] Speaker 7: to go out and chant slogans that would basically talk
[46:00] Speaker 7: about the eradication of another ethnic group, it wouldn't be allowed. Now,
[46:06] Speaker 7: the problem you've got in Australia. The problem we've got
[46:08] Speaker 7: here is we've already allowed this to go so far.
[46:12] Speaker 7: And if you start to get tough with the police, think, well,
[46:15] Speaker 7: you're going to have protests. It won't be easy, but
[46:18] Speaker 7: if you don't do it, then you'll have to ask
[46:21] Speaker 7: yourself a question in a few short years, what actually
[46:24] Speaker 7: is Australia, What actually is the UK? What are our values?
[46:28] Speaker 7: What do they mean? Because frankly, this is a threat
[46:32] Speaker 7: to our way of life. It's a civilizational threat to
[46:36] Speaker 7: the values, the standards of everything that's been built and
[46:40] Speaker 7: defended over centuries.
[46:42] Speaker 1: That is just how serious this is.
[46:44] Speaker 2: And finally, how important is it that the leaders of
[46:48] Speaker 2: the faith come out and are absolute about the right
[46:52] Speaker 2: for Duws to freely move amongst a society and to
[46:56] Speaker 2: be able to have their religious observances. Again, nobody suggesting
[47:00] Speaker 2: that you know an entire faith and therefore its representatives
[47:03] Speaker 2: have to speak on the behalf of these nutters. We
[47:05] Speaker 2: all know that if I don't say that, people will
[47:07] Speaker 2: think that we're having a conversation we're not having. But
[47:09] Speaker 2: how important is it that the mainstream turns around and
[47:12] Speaker 2: shows that part of the mainstream is the existence of
[47:15] Speaker 2: the people who are the complete opposite of you.
[47:21] Speaker 7: Absolutely, And the one ray of sunshine, if there is one,
[47:24] Speaker 7: from the last few days on Bondai Beach, is that
[47:27] Speaker 7: the brave guy who took out the gunment was a
[47:30] Speaker 7: Muslim himself. And I say this to everybody. You know,
[47:34] Speaker 7: we don't want to engage in a holy war. The
[47:36] Speaker 7: vast majority of Muslim people living in Britain, living in
[47:39] Speaker 7: Australia are very very decent, integrated people. Their kids play
[47:44] Speaker 7: with our kids. They want to get on and live
[47:46] Speaker 7: good lives. But there's this extreme element, this extreme element
[47:50] Speaker 7: of Islam has been able to develop. And I would
[47:53] Speaker 7: just draw this last point of imey. If you go
[47:56] Speaker 7: to the United Arab Emirates or many many of the
[47:59] Speaker 7: Middle Easternuslim countries, you will find that the Muslim Brotherhood
[48:04] Speaker 7: is a banned, prescribed terrorist organization because we know across
[48:09] Speaker 7: the world they are the ones promoting evil, They are
[48:12] Speaker 7: the ones involved with training those that go out and
[48:16] Speaker 7: commit atrocities. So come on, Great Britain, Come on Australia,
[48:20] Speaker 7: follow the lead from moderate Muslim countries with big populations
[48:24] Speaker 7: who are friends of ours in this. Actually, this actually
[48:28] Speaker 7: doesn't just affect indigenous Australian or British communities. This affects
[48:34] Speaker 7: every Muslim living in our countries too. We have to
[48:37] Speaker 7: root out extremism and prescribing the Muslim Brotherhood would be
[48:41] Speaker 7: a very good start.
[48:42] Speaker 1: Excellent point. Thank you mate, loving to talk to you.
[48:44] Speaker 2: We'll see you again next week, hopefully under well, obviously
[48:46] Speaker 2: different circumstances. All the best, Thank you, Na Najer Farush.
[48:49] Speaker 2: They're the leader of the Reform Party in the United Kingdom.
[48:51] Speaker 2: More than to seek here on Paul Murray Live. Like
[48:53] Speaker 2: to bate back and in the chairs in about five
[48:56] Speaker 2: minutes from now. That's our program for tonight again. I
[49:04] Speaker 2: end our hour together where we started it. Prime Minister
[49:07] Speaker 2: talks about unity. We are already unified. We are unified
[49:11] Speaker 2: about an outrage about what has happened, a determination for
[49:14] Speaker 2: it to never happen again, and to put our arms
[49:17] Speaker 2: around everyone who's hurting like debate is next.

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