# Playing the Long Game With New Zealand Infrastructure

An episode of [The Strong Towns Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/369032477), 28 Jul 2025, 28 min.

Audio: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/4kn2jm4a6jgijis6/STP_7-28-25.mp3

In this special episode, Chuck is joined by Graham Campbell, director of Economics & Research for the New Zealand Infrastructure Commission. They discuss the true cost of infrastructure — and why both New Zealand and North America are facing the same financial and structural challenges. ADDITIONAL SHOW NOTES • Chuck Marohn (Substack) • Want to bring the conversation to your city? Book Chuck Marohn as a speaker. This podcast is made possible by Strong Towns members. Click here to learn more about membership, including member-exclusive perks.

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