# Employment Traits of Gen Z, 'Juicy' Bond Yields, Americans Quit Bowling

An episode of [Bloomberg Intelligence](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/326301337), 2 Oct 2026, 39 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/1b0c2805-9805-43e6-9662-b4ab0110f413/e1f04f82-43ef-4d05-a72b-b4d70132923e/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=0ad812bf-fd15-4012-a18c-ae3c00090c76

Bloomberg Money takes the pulse of your financial life, powered by the reporting of our global newsroom. Today's guests: • Suzy Welch, NYU Stern School of Business Professor • Torsten Slok, Apollo chief economist See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios.
[0:04] Speaker 2: Podcasts.
[0:05] Speaker 3: Radio.
[0:06] Speaker 4: News.
[0:07] Speaker 5: Bloomberg Money.
[0:12] Speaker 6: This is the Bloomberg Money Podcast. I'm Tom Keen with
[0:16] Speaker 6: Scarlett Fu. Join us each week for a smart look
[0:19] Speaker 6: at the forces shaping your financial life on personal finance,
[0:23] Speaker 6: on retirement, and wealth management. We will explore how people
[0:27] Speaker 6: are earning, investing, and building wealth. We are live Fridays
[0:32] Speaker 6: at noon Eastern on Bloomberg Television. Subscribe to the podcast
[0:36] Speaker 6: wherever you listen. And as always, on the Bloomberg Terminal
[0:40] Speaker 6: and the Bloomberg Business app.
[0:42] Speaker 4: We're still there with us today.
[0:43] Speaker 6: David Gurr is with us this morning here for Bloomberg
[0:47] Speaker 6: this weekend and into the political maelstrom that he's in
[0:50] Speaker 6: as well. Nikki Waller's here on a wide set of topics,
[0:54] Speaker 6: which I think is going to be great. And personal
[0:56] Speaker 6: finance is sort of shattered within these markets.
[1:00] Speaker 4: Sure is.
[1:01] Speaker 1: Good thing we're all in it for the long term.
[1:03] Speaker 6: Romain Bostic with us with some real expertise. What's different here, folks,
[1:07] Speaker 6: is we all follow the blur. Scarlett and I do that,
[1:10] Speaker 6: but then Romain's really channeled it, and we're going to
[1:12] Speaker 6: talk about his perspective on running shoes.
[1:14] Speaker 1: Well, he talks to a lot of CEOs, and he's
[1:16] Speaker 1: got good insight into how some of these consumer-facing companies
[1:18] Speaker 1: are managing through this period.
[1:20] Speaker 6: Romain Bostic on a first-word basis is with Jalen Brunson
[1:23] Speaker 6: about which shoe he's going to wear next year for
[1:25] Speaker 6: Ford Gazillion.
[1:26] Speaker 4: I call him Jay.
[1:27] Speaker 2: That's good.
[1:28] Speaker 6: Great, let's get this started. David Gurra, we're into the
[1:30] Speaker 6: election season. You got Raoul Braunstein on here, Bloomberg this weekend.
[1:35] Speaker 6: What's your first question, Raoul, about the cacophony we're living?
[1:38] Speaker 7: Why is the president going to Texas and Oklahoma and Alabama?
[1:41] Speaker 7: Why is the vice president going to Florida? What does
[1:42] Speaker 7: it say about their strategy, Republican strategy going forward? We
[1:46] Speaker 7: were promised by the president a few months ago.
[1:48] Speaker 6: Right.
[1:48] Speaker 7: Everything's up for grabs. He's going to crisscross the nation.
[1:50] Speaker 7: He is sticking firmly to these red states.
[1:52] Speaker 6: The personal finance of 50 states is flat on their back.
[1:55] Speaker 6: I did Duluth, Minnesota today. Forget about that. Why aren't
[1:58] Speaker 6: they in Iowa where the affordability issue, Grassley, at what,
[2:02] Speaker 6: 90 years old? Is that perplexing about this?
[2:05] Speaker 7: Yes, in his 90s. Look, I think in states where
[2:09] Speaker 7: now we're seeing races incredibly close, you have candidates who
[2:11] Speaker 7: might not feel so easy with the president going there
[2:13] Speaker 7: because of what's been happening in the economy more broadly,
[2:16] Speaker 7: and I was struck by what Tom Tillis of North Carolina,
[2:18] Speaker 7: my home state, said he, of course, retiring from the Senate.
[2:21] Speaker 7: This is a time when these lawmakers who are up
[2:23] Speaker 7: for reelection are focusing on their own states. They don't
[2:25] Speaker 7: want to have the burden of the president of these districts.
[2:28] Speaker 4: Is this where he mentions Duke is 4-0?
[2:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is.
[2:33] Speaker 7: I will not talk about UNC football on principle on
[2:36] Speaker 7: the show.
[2:36] Speaker 1: Let's talk about the economy, though, because, Romain, we got
[2:38] Speaker 1: some jobs numbers today. We also got consumer confidence this
[2:41] Speaker 1: week that shows people feel really lousy, even though there
[2:45] Speaker 1: is job growth. And we had solid PMI numbers which
[2:49] Speaker 1: show that the economy's doing well. It's kind of hard
[2:50] Speaker 1: to get a handle of where things are.
[2:51] Speaker 8: It's hard to get a handle. I think someone said
[2:53] Speaker 8: it best to me.
[2:53] Speaker 9: They said right now you have a consumer that is
[2:55] Speaker 9: behaving a lot better.
[2:57] Speaker 8: Than what he or she actually feels.
[3:00] Speaker 9: And I guess that's good in the short term, but
[3:01] Speaker 9: long term it raises a lot of questions about Are
[3:04] Speaker 9: we reaching a breaking point?
[3:05] Speaker 8: And to your point, David, about the midterm elections.
[3:07] Speaker 9: This is something that has come up time and time
[3:09] Speaker 9: again on the campaign trail. It doesn't seem like a
[3:12] Speaker 9: lot of people in Washington are paying a lot of
[3:14] Speaker 9: attention to it. But I can tell you this right now,
[3:16] Speaker 9: a lot of the retailers and the apparel makers and
[3:19] Speaker 9: the companies that are selling goods and services, they are
[3:21] Speaker 9: paying attention to it.
[3:22] Speaker 8: That's all you hear on the conference calls these days.
[3:24] Speaker 1: And Nikki, you see that too with companies like Dave &
[3:27] Speaker 1: Buster's and Lucky Strike. They're hitting some serious economic headwinds.
[3:30] Speaker 10: Yeah, we're seeing real consumer fatigue. And we know when
[3:33] Speaker 10: people's finances are stressed, the first thing to go.
[3:36] Speaker 1: Is that they're going to chop out is.
[3:37] Speaker 10: That discretionary spending and a fun night out. The other
[3:40] Speaker 10: thing that's happening is that places like Lucky Strike and
[3:44] Speaker 10: Dave & Buster's aren't cheap anymore. You're looking at a
[3:47] Speaker 10: couple hundred bucks for a night out. When I think
[3:50] Speaker 10: all of us can remember the bowling alley beat you,
[3:53] Speaker 10: you can have a good time for 20 bucks.
[3:55] Speaker 1: You can have a good time for 20 bucks. One
[3:56] Speaker 1: go with that.
[3:57] Speaker 8: Absolutely.
[3:59] Speaker 1: Between wages, between insurance costs, that's gone way up. So, Romain,
[4:04] Speaker 1: you have talked to the CEO of Nike a couple
[4:06] Speaker 1: of times. They have their own issues, right? They have
[4:09] Speaker 1: their own execution issues. Elliot Hill inherited a bunch of problems,
[4:12] Speaker 1: but they kind of really show some of the challenges
[4:15] Speaker 1: that these consumer-dependent, consumer-facing companies face. are encountering.
[4:18] Speaker 9: Yeah, and it's kind of one of the more ultimate
[4:19] Speaker 9: discretionary names out there, and they've been struggling. A lot
[4:22] Speaker 9: of idiosyncratic issues, but there are some broader macro issues there, too.
[4:25] Speaker 9: You know, I was looking at a lot of the
[4:26] Speaker 9: anecdotal Fed data about where spending is. You're still seeing
[4:29] Speaker 9: spending strong at value places, the big box stores, the
[4:32] Speaker 9: Costcos of the world. Durable goods is just really just
[4:35] Speaker 9: kind of starting the circle to drain. But at the
[4:37] Speaker 9: bottom of that stack was actually apparel and footwear. And
[4:40] Speaker 9: it had done better at the start of the year,
[4:41] Speaker 9: but you're starting to see a pullback. People are only
[4:44] Speaker 9: buying the things either that they absolutely need or things
[4:46] Speaker 9: that are really unique and exciting.
[4:48] Speaker 8: And there's not a whole lot in between.
[4:49] Speaker 4: I'm looking this weekend. I mean, Mrs.
[4:51] Speaker 6: Keene told me she's got the Jalen Brunson Nikes, you know,
[4:54] Speaker 6: the custom-made ones. I don't even know what they cost.
[4:57] Speaker 6: You don't want to know what they cost. The Nikes
[4:59] Speaker 6: are like in, in, in right now. I mean, does
[5:02] Speaker 6: the name still matter to Nike, like the endorsements?
[5:04] Speaker 8: Oh, yeah, it matters.
[5:05] Speaker 9: Just yesterday when they released their earnings report, they also
[5:08] Speaker 9: released the Caitlyn Clark connection. This is a huge deal,
[5:11] Speaker 9: the most money that they've backed for a woman athlete ever. And,
[5:14] Speaker 9: in fact, the amount of money they're spending on this
[5:16] Speaker 9: rivals what they would spend on some of their male athletes.
[5:19] Speaker 4: They really see her.
[5:20] Speaker 8: As sort of being the potential focal point for the branding,
[5:23] Speaker 8: the endorsement branding.
[5:24] Speaker 4: And why is the stock cratered?
[5:26] Speaker 8: Well, because they're not selling. Jordan is down. Sportswear is down.
[5:30] Speaker 9: The only real bright spots, they had some sort of,
[5:32] Speaker 9: and the Nike brand here in North America.
[5:34] Speaker 8: China is just abysmal.
[5:35] Speaker 9: That was down 22% in the most recent quarter. They're
[5:38] Speaker 9: not selling anything over in Europe right now. This is
[5:40] Speaker 9: a story right now where people have options. And for
[5:43] Speaker 9: a lot of people, those options are not Nike.
[5:46] Speaker 1: People have options. People are being selective with their spending.
[5:49] Speaker 1: But David, if you listen to the president, there is
[5:51] Speaker 1: no affordability crisis. There is no affordability challenge. As far
[5:54] Speaker 1: as he's concerned, he fixed whatever inflation problems existed.
[5:57] Speaker 7: I just want to say, in the Gurra household, we
[5:58] Speaker 7: bought some Sabrina Ionescu, sort of in our part to
[6:01] Speaker 7: help Nike's bottom line.
[6:03] Speaker 4: But no, I think that's right.
[6:04] Speaker 7: And so what we have from the president is this
[6:05] Speaker 7: promise of this $ 5, 000 dividend, this promise that, you know,
[6:09] Speaker 7: come election day, the war is going to end, oil
[6:11] Speaker 7: prices are going to come down. And I think there's
[6:13] Speaker 7: frustration among the American people with having to hold on
[6:16] Speaker 7: to that as the best hope here that the president
[6:18] Speaker 7: is offering. And I think there's just this talk about sentiment,
[6:20] Speaker 7: a real disconnect. That was something, that $ 5, 000 check was
[6:23] Speaker 7: kind of a throwaway line at this Republican convention in Dallas.
[6:27] Speaker 2: It continues to have life.
[6:28] Speaker 7: And I think lawmakers are having to deal with how
[6:30] Speaker 7: do they answer their constituents who now expect this sort
[6:32] Speaker 7: of thing.
[6:33] Speaker 10: At the same time, this has been a little bit
[6:34] Speaker 10: of a Republican talking point. It has a lot of truth.
[6:37] Speaker 10: Americans are fairly rich. One of the things we're looking
[6:40] Speaker 10: at in money is that later this year, the Fed
[6:42] Speaker 10: is going to release its survey of household consumer finances.
[6:47] Speaker 10: And we are going to see how it is that
[6:48] Speaker 10: people are managing to shop and spend, even with everything
[6:51] Speaker 10: they're facing. And I think we can't avoid the fact
[6:54] Speaker 10: that people have retirement accounts. People have homes by and large.
[6:59] Speaker 10: They are in a pretty good situation with their mortgages.
[7:01] Speaker 10: It's what feels bad is sometimes the discretionary stuff.
[7:05] Speaker 1: No, and on top of that, you have AI kind
[7:07] Speaker 1: of looming over everyone. I know that your team wrote
[7:10] Speaker 1: something up about how there's a new report that shows
[7:12] Speaker 1: AI may force 11 million workers into new jobs.
[7:15] Speaker 10: It's a really big number from McKinsey and shows sort
[7:18] Speaker 10: of the extent of what we could be looking at
[7:21] Speaker 10: in the next couple years. And how our jobs are
[7:24] Speaker 10: going to change, we don't know. It's a really, you know,
[7:27] Speaker 10: I think that's one of the things that's helping people
[7:28] Speaker 10: feel not so great is that, you know, tell anyone
[7:32] Speaker 10: there's big change coming, but we can't tell you how,
[7:34] Speaker 10: but it's going to be kind of painful. And that
[7:37] Speaker 10: adds up to some really dark consumer sentiment like we
[7:39] Speaker 10: saw earlier this week.
[7:40] Speaker 6: David mentioned the Carolinas. and for his birthday. What we
[7:44] Speaker 6: need to understand is this is like his.
[7:48] Speaker 4: Second job.
[7:49] Speaker 6: His real job is nailing a major pentatonic scale and
[7:53] Speaker 6: the mixolydian scale with incredible ability here. David Gurra playing
[8:01] Speaker 6: fiddle a few weeks back.
[8:05] Speaker 7: This is very much back, years back.
[8:11] Speaker 4: Thank you.
[8:22] Speaker 6: I wasn't sure which video we had. That was a
[8:24] Speaker 6: celebration during COVID.
[8:25] Speaker 7: Well, yeah.
[8:26] Speaker 8: Those are some skills. Thank you so much.
[8:32] Speaker 4: During COVID as well, to see that. It was a
[8:34] Speaker 4: birthday time.
[8:35] Speaker 1: Well, happy birthday, David Gurra.
[8:36] Speaker 4: Thank you very much.
[8:37] Speaker 1: Appreciate it. We'll maybe get you to do this live one.
[8:40] Speaker 2: Day for us.
[8:40] Speaker 7: Yeah, I'd love to. Tom can bring his guitar, mandolin.
[8:42] Speaker 7: We'll do the full, hit the band together.
[8:43] Speaker 4: Wonderful.
[8:44] Speaker 1: What's your instrument, Nikki?
[8:45] Speaker 4: Triangle.
[8:46] Speaker 1: I'll bring the cowbell all right thank you so much
[8:50] Speaker 1: to all of our guests today nikki waller david gora
[8:53] Speaker 1: and romaine bostick.
[8:54] Speaker 6: Tom well i mean you know there we are coming
[8:57] Speaker 6: up we've got you know a really important discussion this
[8:59] Speaker 6: is suzy welch hugely anticipated my essay of the year
[9:04] Speaker 6: last year she's at nyu and this will get some
[9:07] Speaker 6: heat going in the room this this is a.
[9:10] Speaker 4: Controversial moment with Susie Welch.
[9:13] Speaker 1: She's got some strong opinions. All right, we're going to
[9:14] Speaker 1: look into all that, including her research on decision-making and
[9:17] Speaker 1: how it applies to your money moves. This is Bloomberg Money.
[9:26] Speaker 6: Bloomberg Money, it's on personal finance, it's on wealth management,
[9:29] Speaker 6: it's on retirement.
[9:31] Speaker 4: Scarlett Fu and Tommy, what a day.
[9:33] Speaker 6: The jobs report and then we had like, you know,
[9:35] Speaker 6: British hydro, European hydrocarbons.
[9:38] Speaker 4: And all that.
[9:38] Speaker 1: You also have the French bond crisis for anyone who's
[9:40] Speaker 1: paying attention to what's going on in Europe.
[9:42] Speaker 4: It's like serious stuff.
[9:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
[9:45] Speaker 4: We welcome all of you.
[9:45] Speaker 6: We're a little bit off topic on that and way
[9:47] Speaker 6: off topic here with someone who's beyond important. Joining us now,
[9:52] Speaker 6: Susie Welch, NYU Stern School business professor, which barely describes
[9:57] Speaker 6: her impact.
[9:58] Speaker 4: The book is 10, 10, 10.
[9:59] Speaker 6: A life transforming idea. We'll talk about their path to
[10:03] Speaker 6: academics and all that. I can give you the exact
[10:06] Speaker 6: date here, folks. September 24, 2025, I said, yeah, Susie
[10:12] Speaker 6: Welch said, is Gen Z unemployable? And it's just real simple.
[10:16] Speaker 6: It was a blistering essay in the Wall Street Journal.
[10:20] Speaker 4: About the kids. What how damaged are the kids out
[10:24] Speaker 4: of let's do this?
[10:25] Speaker 6: This is the morning must read here the the money
[10:28] Speaker 6: must read I should say this is from the essay
[10:30] Speaker 6: and it's just simple The message is often met with
[10:33] Speaker 6: a pushback that business needs to change What has the
[10:37] Speaker 6: focus on achievement gotten us but anxiety? Oh woe is
[10:40] Speaker 6: me and who wants a life of scope with action
[10:42] Speaker 6: and and a decent paycheck when the world is already unstable?
[10:47] Speaker 6: How damaged were the kids out of COVID?
[10:50] Speaker 5: I don't know if I'd use the word damaged. I
[10:52] Speaker 5: have to say, you know, I love Gen Z. I
[10:54] Speaker 5: think that they were changed. I mean, maybe they were
[10:57] Speaker 5: changed even before Gen Z, but what the pandemic reinforced
[11:01] Speaker 5: for them is that they did not want to postpone joy.
[11:03] Speaker 5: They did not want to earn their happiness, which is
[11:06] Speaker 5: actually a very ancient concept. If you go all the
[11:09] Speaker 5: way back to the Stoics, the idea is that you
[11:11] Speaker 5: work very hard and then you earn your gold watch
[11:14] Speaker 5: and your relaxation and your retirement, basically, that you play,
[11:17] Speaker 5: you work very hard, then you get to play hard.
[11:19] Speaker 5: And I think what happened and what the research would
[11:21] Speaker 5: show is that they came out of the pandemic and
[11:23] Speaker 5: they said, we don't really like that arrangement. We would
[11:25] Speaker 5: like not to postpone joy. And look, maybe their reasons
[11:27] Speaker 5: are the bottom can fall out at any time. Maybe
[11:29] Speaker 5: there's no joy at the end of the working.
[11:31] Speaker 1: So why would we sign.
[11:32] Speaker 4: Up for that? steam coming out of my ears.
[11:35] Speaker 1: Scorching yeah a little bit it feels like they're they've
[11:38] Speaker 1: subscribed to YOLO in like a very very extreme way
[11:42] Speaker 1: yes what do old people like Tom like me get
[11:45] Speaker 1: wrong well what do we get wrong about the skills
[11:48] Speaker 1: that you need and how to build a career today
[11:50] Speaker 1: for this cohort of Gen Zers who don't want to
[11:53] Speaker 1: delay joy who you know want to live life I
[11:55] Speaker 1: think that People from older generations have the former kind
[12:00] Speaker 1: of array of values, which is they value achievement more,
[12:03] Speaker 1: and they have also this equation in their heads that
[12:06] Speaker 1: you have to work to get your period of pleasure.
[12:10] Speaker 5: You know, I want to say maybe they're right, okay?
[12:13] Speaker 5: I mean, I don't ascribe to it. I work all
[12:15] Speaker 5: the time, and I love working, and I've always loved,
[12:17] Speaker 5: but I would say that what If you are managing
[12:20] Speaker 5: Gen Z, and you cannot put your finger on why
[12:23] Speaker 5: they are driving you crazy, but there are words for it,
[12:26] Speaker 5: and that is that their values are very different than yours,
[12:29] Speaker 5: and either, depending on how much power you have, how
[12:32] Speaker 5: much hiring power you have, you can decide whether or
[12:35] Speaker 5: not you want the Gen Z with that attitude, or
[12:37] Speaker 5: you can go get the Gen Z with you.
[12:38] Speaker 4: But are there two groups?
[12:39] Speaker 6: Because I got Eli on Bloomberg Money, who works nothing
[12:42] Speaker 6: under a 60-hour work week, maybe even seven, He knows
[12:46] Speaker 6: the King's English. He can do math. To me, there's
[12:49] Speaker 6: two parts of Gen Z. There's a Gen Z that
[12:52] Speaker 6: you and Mr. Welch, Jack Welch knew, and Scarlett grew
[12:55] Speaker 6: up with, and I grew up with. And then there's
[12:57] Speaker 6: this cohort you're talking about.
[12:59] Speaker 5: Okay, so not everyone in Gen Z is the same.
[13:01] Speaker 5: But if you actually look at the numbers, 2% of
[13:04] Speaker 5: Gen Z have the values that we would typically ascribe to.
[13:08] Speaker 1: Two?
[13:09] Speaker 2: 2%.
[13:09] Speaker 4: So, yeah, they exist.
[13:11] Speaker 5: And you know what happens is there's a cage match
[13:13] Speaker 5: of organizations and individuals who are trying to hire that 2%.
[13:17] Speaker 5: And the rest have a different set of values. Their
[13:19] Speaker 5: top value is self-care and well-being. Their second value is agency,
[13:24] Speaker 5: which is like wanting to make all the decisions. They
[13:26] Speaker 5: are very, very self-deterministic. And then they would like voice
[13:29] Speaker 5: as their third value, which is authentic self-expression.
[13:31] Speaker 4: How do you say this with a straight face?
[13:34] Speaker 1: So my question here, sorry to interrupt, but my question
[13:37] Speaker 1: is how much of the responsibility lies with schools? I mean,
[13:41] Speaker 1: you have to have the knowledge, the skill set base
[13:43] Speaker 1: in order to kind of move forward with these kinds
[13:45] Speaker 1: of demands. universities and professors don't appear to be equipping
[13:49] Speaker 1: these young people with the right skill set. Their values
[13:52] Speaker 1: are formed by the time they get to school, okay?
[13:54] Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think the professors all feel the
[13:56] Speaker 5: same way about this. I don't think this is happening in.
[13:58] Speaker 4: School, okay?
[13:59] Speaker 5: Schools have learned to cater to it because they're getting
[14:03] Speaker 5: in students who have a certain set of values. But
[14:05] Speaker 5: those students didn't arrive with totally different values and then
[14:08] Speaker 5: have them change. I think it's happening a little earlier
[14:11] Speaker 5: than that. And I want to just say, I have
[14:12] Speaker 5: one little piece of data which I think you're going
[14:14] Speaker 5: to be delighted in because I've just gotten this data recently.
[14:16] Speaker 5: We went in at Becoming Labs, which is the lab
[14:19] Speaker 5: that I work in, and we gave our test, the
[14:22] Speaker 5: values bridge, to 300, the top 300 executives at a
[14:26] Speaker 5: large bank that shall remain nameless, except for to say
[14:31] Speaker 5: it is a wildly successful, extremely large bank based in
[14:34] Speaker 5: New York. So we gave the values bridge test to
[14:38] Speaker 5: their top 300 executives.
[14:39] Speaker 8: Why?
[14:39] Speaker 5: Because the CEO asked me to.
[14:41] Speaker 1: And we looked at their values.
[14:42] Speaker 5: There was 91% value overlap with this group.
[14:46] Speaker 2: That's unbelievable.
[14:47] Speaker 5: 91% of them had the exact same values.
[14:50] Speaker 4: Their top values were wildly.
[14:53] Speaker 5: Different than the Gen Z people that they were managing.
[14:55] Speaker 5: But what was fascinating is They didn't have Gen Z's
[14:58] Speaker 5: top values, agency and voice, self-determination, self-expression. Those were down
[15:03] Speaker 5: at number 14 and 15 for them.
[15:05] Speaker 2: So they had risen up to the top.
[15:06] Speaker 5: So we've got this very successful cohort of banking executives,
[15:10] Speaker 5: and they are managing people with radically different values.
[15:13] Speaker 1: This is what's causing the tension. We wanted to ask
[15:16] Speaker 1: you about the worst career advice you ever got. Not
[15:18] Speaker 1: the best, but the worst. And I know that something
[15:20] Speaker 1: that drives you absolutely bananas is something that Steve Jobs
[15:23] Speaker 1: used to tell everyone, which is follow your passion.
[15:26] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[15:28] Speaker 1: Hold it on here. Look, I think maybe you should,
[15:31] Speaker 1: but maybe you shouldn't. Because passion, which is often really
[15:34] Speaker 1: your interest, it's just one part.
[15:36] Speaker 5: It's sort of a three-legged stool when you're going to
[15:37] Speaker 5: try to build a career that's sustainable. And what you're
[15:40] Speaker 5: interested in, your passion, is one leg of the stool.
[15:42] Speaker 5: But you also have a set of values. Everyone has
[15:44] Speaker 5: a set of values. But also you have aptitudes. fine,
[15:48] Speaker 5: follow your passion if you're good at it. You know,
[15:50] Speaker 5: like I, you know, I would be up there like
[15:52] Speaker 5: with Beyonce if I was just following my passions, I
[15:53] Speaker 5: would like to perform, but I'm terrible. I mean, terrible
[15:56] Speaker 5: at it. So, I mean, I think that what students
[15:58] Speaker 5: want is like this wonderful answer. And I understand why
[16:00] Speaker 5: people give this advice because if you're, you know, technically,
[16:04] Speaker 5: first of all, it feels very good to say, just
[16:05] Speaker 5: follow your passion. And everybody goes, yeah, I should just
[16:08] Speaker 5: follow my passion. I would also say another piece of
[16:10] Speaker 5: it is sometimes people don't know what their passions are.
[16:12] Speaker 5: I mean, we've got kind of a generational cohort who
[16:14] Speaker 5: will say with dead seriousness, like, some days I want
[16:17] Speaker 5: to be a veterinarian.
[16:18] Speaker 4: That's what I hear all the time.
[16:19] Speaker 5: But then in the afternoon, I want to start a
[16:21] Speaker 5: tech company based on AI.
[16:22] Speaker 1: And it's like, well, you've got to choose between those,
[16:24] Speaker 1: I'm afraid.
[16:25] Speaker 6: Susie, I'm going to dovetail this all together with your
[16:27] Speaker 6: acclaim at NY.
[16:29] Speaker 4: You had a father-in-law.
[16:32] Speaker 6: Who, his voice, you have a voice when you're a
[16:35] Speaker 6: Boston and Maine railroad conductor. So Jack Welch's father was
[16:39] Speaker 6: a conductor on a train a million years ago. That
[16:43] Speaker 6: heritage wasn't about a voice. It wasn't about all the
[16:46] Speaker 6: stuff you've brilliantly studied Here, what did you learn from
[16:49] Speaker 6: Jack Welch about grinding through the investment day of retirement?
[16:55] Speaker 5: I have to say, I've often thought about what Jack's values,
[16:58] Speaker 5: if we'd had the values bridge, I would have loved
[16:59] Speaker 5: to know what his values were. But Jack actually believed
[17:02] Speaker 5: in enjoying your work. I mean, and I don't want
[17:04] Speaker 5: people to take out what they find to be an
[17:06] Speaker 5: enjoyable thing.
[17:07] Speaker 1: But Jack believed in hard work.
[17:08] Speaker 5: I mean, he was one of these people who was
[17:10] Speaker 5: like very driven to you know, we left our honeymoon
[17:14] Speaker 5: early because we missed work so much. I mean, that
[17:17] Speaker 5: was our shared personality type. And so I think that
[17:20] Speaker 5: he believed in work and the term fun employment probably
[17:23] Speaker 5: would have driven him just about as crazy as it
[17:25] Speaker 5: drives me when my students say they're going to have
[17:27] Speaker 5: some fun employment, which is purposely not work to have fun.
[17:30] Speaker 5: And I'm like, but work is fun. So I think
[17:32] Speaker 5: that he would have some thoughts. So his aptitude was work,
[17:36] Speaker 5: hard work. His value was work. He certainly had the
[17:38] Speaker 5: value of work centrism. His aptitudes were too many to list.
[17:42] Speaker 1: All right. Susie, thank you so much for joining us.
[17:44] Speaker 1: Susie Walsh, we were just getting started here with NYU
[17:46] Speaker 1: Stern School of Business, author of many books, but really
[17:50] Speaker 1: thought leadership here when it comes to career management and
[17:53] Speaker 1: also decision making and everything that entails.
[17:56] Speaker 11: All right.
[17:57] Speaker 1: Coming up, we've got a conversation with Torsten Slocke, chief
[17:59] Speaker 1: economist at Apollo. Of course, we're going to focus on
[18:02] Speaker 1: personal finance, retirement, and wealth management. This is Bloomberg Money. Okay,
[18:07] Speaker 1: you need to tell me about this study.
[18:10] Speaker 5: So we have a methodology. It's a methodology that I
[18:14] Speaker 5: teach at NYU.
[18:21] Speaker 1: Let's bring in Torsten Slocke right now. He is chief
[18:23] Speaker 1: economist at Apollo.
[18:24] Speaker 6: Torsten Slack with us, and we are thrilled he's with
[18:27] Speaker 6: us with an eclectic vision from Deutsche Bank over to Apollo.
[18:31] Speaker 6: And I've got to say, Torsten, I look at this,
[18:33] Speaker 6: and the thing at the end of the weekend, in
[18:35] Speaker 6: terms of personal finance, retirement, and wealth management, is we
[18:40] Speaker 6: have a top-line boom economy GDP like we've never had.
[18:46] Speaker 6: Discuss it. It's like after Napoleon's war. It's after 1947,
[18:49] Speaker 6: World War II. This boom nominal GDP is extraordinary.
[18:54] Speaker 3: Yeah, because we have very, very strong tailwinds to growth
[18:56] Speaker 3: coming from the AI spending boom. We also have tailwinds
[18:58] Speaker 3: coming from the one big bit of a bill. And
[19:00] Speaker 3: we also have some tailwinds coming from the home showing
[19:02] Speaker 3: of production. The manufacturing sector is actually doing really well.
[19:05] Speaker 3: And what's most noteworthy is also that the weekly data
[19:08] Speaker 3: for business formation is telling you that the number of
[19:12] Speaker 3: new businesses that are created every week is at the
[19:14] Speaker 3: highest level ever, ever in U.S.
[19:15] Speaker 2: History.
[19:16] Speaker 3: We've never had just a dynamic economy as we're having
[19:18] Speaker 3: at the moment because people can use AI to start
[19:20] Speaker 3: a new business.
[19:21] Speaker 6: So, Torsten, bring this over to the retirement plans where
[19:24] Speaker 6: everybody's in four index funds trying to get it done.
[19:28] Speaker 6: If we have a roaring economy, as Edgar Denny talks about,
[19:32] Speaker 6: are we at risk with our retirement?
[19:34] Speaker 3: Well, this is what's really important about this discussion is
[19:36] Speaker 3: something you and I have talked about for years because
[19:38] Speaker 3: now we have a huge capital need for financing AI.
[19:41] Speaker 2: And in the meantime, we also have.
[19:43] Speaker 3: A huge capital need also for financing the government. So,
[19:46] Speaker 3: we went from a savings glut from 2010 to 2020
[19:48] Speaker 3: where there was a significant amount of savings from China,
[19:53] Speaker 3: from savers, from people who have a 401k. But today,
[19:56] Speaker 3: there are so many things to invest in. You can
[19:58] Speaker 3: decide to invest in high government bond rates. You could
[20:01] Speaker 3: also decide to invest in AI. The number of projects
[20:04] Speaker 3: that need capital is very significant. And that's the reason
[20:06] Speaker 3: why interest rates keep going up. because there's just a
[20:09] Speaker 3: shortage of capital relative to the savings glut that we
[20:12] Speaker 3: had for many years before the pandemic.
[20:14] Speaker 1: Let me go back to the economy, because as strong
[20:16] Speaker 1: as the numbers indicate, it doesn't feel like it for
[20:19] Speaker 1: a lot of people. The consumer-facing part of the economy
[20:21] Speaker 1: feels like it's a completely different story than what's going
[20:24] Speaker 1: on in AI and all the CapEx and all the
[20:27] Speaker 1: buildup of the AI infrastructure.
[20:29] Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that's because the economy is bifurcated into the
[20:32] Speaker 3: very strong AI spending boom, and on the other side,
[20:35] Speaker 3: you have the interest rate sensitive parts of the economy,
[20:37] Speaker 3: namely housing and autos. And housing, mortgage rates during the
[20:40] Speaker 3: pandemic were 2.7, now mortgage rates are 7.2. In other words,
[20:44] Speaker 3: it's become unaffordable to buy a house, and if you
[20:47] Speaker 3: add that to affordability issues with healthcare, with education, oil prices,
[20:52] Speaker 3: that's why consumer confidence continues.
[20:53] Speaker 2: To do so poorly.
[20:54] Speaker 6: The person within wealth management, within just basic wealth management,
[20:58] Speaker 6: Project out one year, three years, five years out of
[21:03] Speaker 6: how we bring down this odd boom economy.
[21:07] Speaker 4: Where will the damage be?
[21:08] Speaker 6: That's what Bloomberg Money people want to know.
[21:10] Speaker 4: Absolutely.
[21:11] Speaker 3: And the key conclusion is that interest rates are going
[21:13] Speaker 3: to stay higher for longer because inflation is higher for longer.
[21:16] Speaker 2: And from a 60-40.
[21:17] Speaker 3: Portfolio perspective, that means that we now suddenly need to
[21:20] Speaker 3: think more about fixed income. because the yield you can
[21:23] Speaker 3: get in fixed income is actually really, really juicy if
[21:25] Speaker 3: you go back and look at history. And if that's juicy,
[21:28] Speaker 3: that means that both in rates but also in high-quality credit,
[21:31] Speaker 3: you could get some very high levels of yields that
[21:33] Speaker 3: you have not been able to get literally for decades.
[21:34] Speaker 4: Scarlett, juicy is CFA level four.
[21:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very technical term. I mean, you don't
[21:40] Speaker 1: even have to go into fixed income. You could just
[21:42] Speaker 1: keep money in cash and do pretty well, given where
[21:45] Speaker 1: deposit rates are. And this is something that you have
[21:48] Speaker 1: written about, this idea that people who keep their money
[21:51] Speaker 1: in cash With the use of AI, that becomes a
[21:55] Speaker 1: whole different picture here because AI can really change behavior
[21:59] Speaker 1: in a way that the industry, the financial industry, is
[22:02] Speaker 1: not quite prepared for.
[22:03] Speaker 3: Yeah, because we've had a lot of conversations in the
[22:05] Speaker 3: last few weeks about Muse and what will Muse do to.
[22:08] Speaker 2: The Meta app, right?
[22:09] Speaker 3: The Meta app, your personal assistant that suddenly can make
[22:11] Speaker 3: your life easier in a number of different ways. And
[22:13] Speaker 3: one worry, of course, you can have is that if
[22:15] Speaker 3: that makes your life easier by swiping out cash that
[22:18] Speaker 3: you have in your checking account where interest rates are 0.01,
[22:21] Speaker 3: if you can swipe that into another account while I
[22:23] Speaker 3: walk into Whole Foods, suddenly my money go into my account.
[22:26] Speaker 2: When I walk out, the money goes out.
[22:28] Speaker 4: Okay, wise guy, would you do that?
[22:29] Speaker 3: So, well, the question is, this is why we are
[22:31] Speaker 3: about to figure out how many people are giving their
[22:33] Speaker 3: data to Muse and to the personal assistant.
[22:35] Speaker 4: You've got to be kidding me. I think it's Kara
[22:36] Speaker 4: Swisher said it. You've got to be kidding me.
[22:38] Speaker 6: You're going to give Zuckerberg and that crew your personal
[22:42] Speaker 6: financial data?
[22:43] Speaker 3: It's already possible today in many different ways to take
[22:46] Speaker 3: your money in and out of your checking account.
[22:47] Speaker 2: There are some issues. Sometimes it takes a day. Sometimes
[22:49] Speaker 2: it takes a little bit less time.
[22:51] Speaker 3: But the issue is, at the end of the day,
[22:52] Speaker 3: that if you can swipe your money out of the
[22:54] Speaker 3: checking account, you can have a checking account elsewhere where,
[22:56] Speaker 3: of course, you also get a higher yield.
[22:58] Speaker 2: So, I do think that this is the way we're moving.
[22:59] Speaker 3: That may not be happening with Muse and the personal
[23:02] Speaker 3: assistants from AI, but it's certainly that way that things
[23:04] Speaker 3: are moving. Also, of course, with blockchain technology, making these
[23:07] Speaker 3: things also a lot easier.
[23:08] Speaker 6: We love to mention blockchain and Bloomberg money.
[23:10] Speaker 1: I think we can. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, AI
[23:12] Speaker 1: has made it so that price shopping, rate shopping, and
[23:15] Speaker 1: switching is now frictionless. And that means that I feel
[23:19] Speaker 1: like that's going to introduce a lot more volatility. The
[23:21] Speaker 1: number that you see today may not last for very long.
[23:24] Speaker 4: Well, that's true.
[23:25] Speaker 3: And that's also why, of course, the risk ultimately becomes
[23:27] Speaker 3: if money moves around much quicker and if suddenly subscriptions
[23:30] Speaker 3: are canceled and subscribed to much quicker, of course, you
[23:32] Speaker 3: could have a more volatile economy. So that's why AI,
[23:35] Speaker 3: once again, can be disruptive. And it can be disruptive,
[23:37] Speaker 3: of course, in the normal consumer economy, but it can
[23:40] Speaker 3: also be disruptive, of course, in personal finances.
[23:42] Speaker 11: Right.
[23:42] Speaker 6: I got to ask this, and this comes right over
[23:44] Speaker 6: to wealth management, to retirement, to psychology of what we're
[23:47] Speaker 6: doing on Bloomberg Money.
[23:49] Speaker 4: You are expert on the continent of Europe.
[23:52] Speaker 6: Is the continent of Europe, the United Kingdom, well, less
[23:55] Speaker 6: the United Kingdom, but are they going to become more
[23:58] Speaker 6: Anglo-american in their capitalism. We're all praying for them to
[24:02] Speaker 6: take more risk to me more equity based Do you
[24:05] Speaker 6: buy it?
[24:06] Speaker 3: I over time this will come because the Europeans understand
[24:10] Speaker 3: this they know that they need more capital to take
[24:12] Speaker 3: risk if they need growth They will absolutely have to
[24:15] Speaker 3: grow their economies and have more developed financial markets Think
[24:18] Speaker 3: about it if you and I sit in Germany or
[24:20] Speaker 3: Denmark or France and we have a good idea You
[24:23] Speaker 3: will need to then go into your bank and say
[24:24] Speaker 3: can I borrow some money? And if that says no
[24:27] Speaker 3: You really have no other places to go. So when
[24:29] Speaker 3: financial markets in the U.S., you can go to venture capital,
[24:31] Speaker 3: private credit, private equity. You can go to another bank.
[24:33] Speaker 3: There are different places you can go and have this discussion.
[24:36] Speaker 2: Can I borrow from this great idea?
[24:37] Speaker 4: I'm going to get one more in.
[24:38] Speaker 6: Because Scarlett's got smarter questions. You know I bought the
[24:41] Speaker 6: Austrian 100-year paper.
[24:44] Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
[24:46] Speaker 4: I was a yield hog, folks. Just so you know,
[24:49] Speaker 4: I really screwed up on this. And Torsten said, don't
[24:51] Speaker 4: do it.
[24:52] Speaker 6: I bought the 100-year paper, and it's down like 80%.
[24:55] Speaker 6: You're laughing at me. At least I didn't buy it leveraged.
[24:59] Speaker 6: That was cash we did that with. Tell me about
[25:02] Speaker 6: yield hog right now, given these bond gyrations within our
[25:06] Speaker 6: retirement fund.
[25:07] Speaker 3: What's most important about your 100-year bond is that you
[25:09] Speaker 3: bought duration. And that tells you that bonds can actually
[25:12] Speaker 3: also be very risky. We're figuring that out that anyone
[25:14] Speaker 3: who has public U.S. treasuries and public credit are also
[25:18] Speaker 3: very duration sensitive. So that's, of course, why being short
[25:21] Speaker 3: of duration.
[25:21] Speaker 2: Is a good idea at the moment.
[25:22] Speaker 3: And what's particularly also a good idea is to be
[25:24] Speaker 3: up in quality, first lien, see a secure top of
[25:27] Speaker 3: the capital structure, but make sure that you are in
[25:29] Speaker 3: short of duration debt so that you're not exposed to
[25:31] Speaker 3: those duration moves that you unfortunately were exposed to when
[25:33] Speaker 3: you bought.
[25:34] Speaker 2: A 100-year bond.
[25:34] Speaker 4: That's brutal.
[25:35] Speaker 1: If you're early on in your retirement planning, you've got
[25:38] Speaker 1: decades left to work and you want to put money away. Yes,
[25:41] Speaker 1: you put it in equities, but we keep hearing about alternatives,
[25:43] Speaker 1: private equity, private credit. The idea that this is still
[25:48] Speaker 1: a good place to go when interest rates are rising
[25:50] Speaker 1: confuses me because private equity and private credit got their
[25:54] Speaker 1: heyday because rates were so low. Now that rates are higher,
[25:57] Speaker 1: how is this still a good time?
[25:58] Speaker 3: As long as you make sure that you're up in
[25:59] Speaker 3: high quality private credit, high quality private equity. I mean,
[26:02] Speaker 3: you get private credit as investment grade. That is as
[26:04] Speaker 3: good as investment grade from the U.S.
[26:06] Speaker 2: Government.
[26:06] Speaker 3: Meaning the rating may not be exactly the same, but
[26:08] Speaker 3: investment grade is very high quality. And that exactly is
[26:11] Speaker 3: the whole point, that when something is investment grade, it's
[26:14] Speaker 3: able to pay the higher debt servicing costs that come
[26:16] Speaker 3: along when interest rates are higher. So make sure that
[26:18] Speaker 3: your investing companies, I know it sounds trivial, investing companies
[26:21] Speaker 3: that have earnings, investing companies that actually make money and
[26:24] Speaker 3: therefore able.
[26:24] Speaker 2: To pay the higher interest rates that we're facing.
[26:26] Speaker 4: At the moment.
[26:28] Speaker 1: Lots of things were rated investment grade in the last
[26:30] Speaker 1: go-around in 2007, and it turned out they weren't.
[26:33] Speaker 2: Of course, that's true.
[26:34] Speaker 3: But I mean today, I mean a lot of things
[26:37] Speaker 3: are investment graded by several rating agencies. Of course, investors
[26:40] Speaker 3: need to think about what type of, and think about
[26:42] Speaker 3: the broad spectrum of risk that investors, you can take
[26:44] Speaker 3: venture capital where you literally have no earnings the next
[26:47] Speaker 3: five years. That's a different type of risk relative to
[26:49] Speaker 3: investing in private credit that has the property of having
[26:52] Speaker 3: earnings and therefore the ability to pay the high debt.
[26:55] Speaker 6: I got one final idea here. Are you read in
[26:57] Speaker 6: on the New York Yankees?
[26:59] Speaker 4: You're Apollo.
[27:00] Speaker 6: Took a minority interest in the New York Yankees.
[27:02] Speaker 3: Absolutely.
[27:03] Speaker 4: Are you steeled for Tampa Bay and New York?
[27:06] Speaker 2: We're so ready. Absolutely. I have the hat.
[27:08] Speaker 4: I'm going to wear it. And I'm going.
[27:10] Speaker 2: It will be fun.
[27:12] Speaker 4: That was compliance approved.
[27:13] Speaker 1: Did you see the Yankees beat the Red Sox? Were
[27:16] Speaker 1: you part of that?
[27:16] Speaker 3: I was personally not part of that. But I do
[27:19] Speaker 3: read it, and we're very excited about it. We're so
[27:20] Speaker 3: proud of this.
[27:21] Speaker 1: All right, Torsten, thank you so much. Torsten Slock is
[27:23] Speaker 1: chief economist over at Apollo. Really appreciate it.
[27:26] Speaker 4: Thank you.
[27:27] Speaker 1: Coming up on Bloomberg Money, for millions of Americans, rising
[27:30] Speaker 1: expenses are just another pressure point on top of their
[27:33] Speaker 1: student loans. And guess what? Those loans, the payments are
[27:36] Speaker 1: getting bigger. We'll explain why. This is Bloomberg Money.
[27:39] Speaker 4: Can you see over at Apollo like he has to
[27:41] Speaker 4: know what.
[27:41] Speaker 2: The info is?
[27:53] Speaker 1: Bloomberg Money is your new destination for personal finance. It's
[27:56] Speaker 1: a cross-platform effort that extends beyond your television screen, including
[28:00] Speaker 1: our new digital hub at Bloomberg.com slash money. And Tom,
[28:04] Speaker 1: this week, a story that feels extremely relevant right now
[28:08] Speaker 1: is about soaring student loan bills and affordability because everything
[28:12] Speaker 1: is more expensive. But now there's been this reorganization, restructuring,
[28:17] Speaker 1: overhaul of student loans that's left people with student loan
[28:20] Speaker 1: debt paying even bigger payments.
[28:22] Speaker 4: I'm glad you chose to do this. I'm conflicted.
[28:24] Speaker 1: Let's bring in one of the authors of this story,
[28:25] Speaker 1: Bloomberg Money reporter Sarah Foster. So, Sarah, what happened here?
[28:28] Speaker 1: This has to do with Joe Biden and what he
[28:31] Speaker 1: did for student loans and now what President Trump is
[28:33] Speaker 1: doing when it comes to student loans, right?
[28:35] Speaker 11: A lot of American student loan borrowers are really kind
[28:37] Speaker 11: of caught in the crosshairs of these shifting federal student
[28:40] Speaker 11: loan repayment plans. We spoke with my colleagues, Liam Knox
[28:44] Speaker 11: and Janelle Marte. We kind of profiled student loan borrowers
[28:47] Speaker 11: across the country, asking them what payment plans they're picking,
[28:51] Speaker 11: how their bills are changing, how it's impacting their finances.
[28:54] Speaker 11: And many of the borrowers that we spoke with told
[28:56] Speaker 11: us that their payments have, in some cases, doubled.
[28:59] Speaker 1: So that's because they're choosing bigger payments as opposed to
[29:02] Speaker 1: extending their loans for longer, right?
[29:04] Speaker 11: There's two new repayment plan options, and a lot of
[29:07] Speaker 11: them either come with longer repayment windows or they come
[29:11] Speaker 11: with higher bills that can accelerate those repayments. And so
[29:15] Speaker 11: it's resulting in a lot of these Americans who took
[29:17] Speaker 11: on student loan debt kind of choosing between paying off
[29:21] Speaker 11: their student loan bill or saving for retirement, saving for
[29:23] Speaker 11: other long-term goals. And a lot of the borrowers that
[29:26] Speaker 11: we spoke with mentioned to us that they're kind of
[29:28] Speaker 11: having to sacrifice their future.
[29:30] Speaker 6: In your research on this, is there any understanding that
[29:33] Speaker 6: for decades people paid their student loans?
[29:37] Speaker 11: I spoke with one borrower who has continued to make payments.
[29:40] Speaker 11: for almost 20 years, and he switched to multiple different
[29:43] Speaker 11: repayment plans. He's gone back and forth on forbearance periods
[29:47] Speaker 11: while he's gone to graduate school, and it's ultimately resulted
[29:50] Speaker 11: in the interest of being even higher than the principal
[29:53] Speaker 11: balance that he took out.
[29:55] Speaker 1: The amount that people are borrowing now is vastly different
[29:58] Speaker 1: than what they were borrowing 20, 30, 40 years ago.
[29:59] Speaker 4: I totally agree with that.
[30:01] Speaker 1: So I don't know that it's a fair comparison.
[30:03] Speaker 4: I agree.
[30:04] Speaker 1: I mean, the outstanding student loan out there is massive
[30:08] Speaker 1: compared with credit card loans or auto loans. Talk a
[30:11] Speaker 1: little bit about the makeup there. Yeah, we also looked at.
[30:14] Speaker 11: Kind of the composition of debt that a lot of
[30:16] Speaker 11: households have, and it's still the case that, you know,
[30:19] Speaker 11: this housing debt makes up the biggest share. But when
[30:22] Speaker 11: you compare auto loans and student loan debt, you know,
[30:25] Speaker 11: those are roughly identical, and it's really kind of the
[30:27] Speaker 11: increase that we've seen in student loan debt since the
[30:29] Speaker 11: early 2000s that's been a major kind of hurdle for us.
[30:33] Speaker 6: I've got to do this on personal finance. The chart
[30:35] Speaker 6: earlier in the week was a shock, and it was
[30:37] Speaker 6: so important, folks. We're going to give it to you again,
[30:39] Speaker 6: and of course... Sarah's living this as we look at
[30:42] Speaker 6: the 30-year mortgage rate.
[30:43] Speaker 4: Who knows where.
[30:44] Speaker 6: It'll be Monday? Who knows where it'll be a month
[30:47] Speaker 6: from now? But the trajectory is really, really shocking. The
[30:52] Speaker 6: long-term trend of the free lunch, Scarlett expanded out to
[30:56] Speaker 6: 8,000 square feet right in the bottom there in 2022.
[30:59] Speaker 6: And up, up we go from 3% to 7%. Sarah,
[31:02] Speaker 6: this is a profound impact, even for people who aren't
[31:06] Speaker 6: looking for a 30-year mortgage.
[31:08] Speaker 11: I go back to the beginning of the year, and
[31:10] Speaker 11: I think about what I was hearing from a lot
[31:12] Speaker 11: of the economists who I was speaking with, and the
[31:15] Speaker 11: hope was that 2026 would really be better for us.
[31:17] Speaker 11: We even briefly saw mortgage rates tip below 6%. Right.
[31:22] Speaker 1: The idea was that we would see interest rate cuts
[31:24] Speaker 1: from the Federal Reserve, and therefore that would bring down
[31:27] Speaker 1: mortgage rates and allow people, especially first-time homebuyers, to finally
[31:31] Speaker 1: be able to buy that home.
[31:32] Speaker 11: And it's been so difficult because I think what was
[31:34] Speaker 11: originally thought as the ceiling, that 7% rate, is now
[31:37] Speaker 11: being questioned as whether it's the new floor. And as
[31:39] Speaker 11: long as the war in Iran continues, oil prices trading
[31:43] Speaker 11: above $ 100 a barrel, diesel at record highs, this is
[31:47] Speaker 11: going to continue to be a problem.
[31:48] Speaker 6: And now, folks, on Bloomberg Money, we destroy Sarah Foster's weekend.
[31:52] Speaker 4: Let's do it with a book.
[31:53] Speaker 6: This is my autumnal read, which I just think is
[31:56] Speaker 6: incredibly important on bonds, but it's a highly readable look.
[32:01] Speaker 6: at the history of bonds from Venice to Amsterdam to
[32:05] Speaker 6: London and over to Alexander Hamilton in America. This is
[32:08] Speaker 6: a triumph by Robin Wigglesworth. A Fabulous Debt, which is
[32:13] Speaker 6: a quote, I believe, from England ages ago. I just
[32:16] Speaker 6: can't say enough about the readability of this. For people
[32:19] Speaker 6: that want to know from the past, it reads like
[32:21] Speaker 6: Daniel Yergin, The Prize, Commanding Heights, and the others.
[32:25] Speaker 1: Does it demystify the bond market?
[32:26] Speaker 6: It does, and he's beautiful about explaining Tom Keene Babel
[32:31] Speaker 6: in English. Robin does a great job, and I can't
[32:34] Speaker 6: say enough about it.
[32:35] Speaker 1: Mary Childs wrote a fantastic review of this book for
[32:37] Speaker 1: a Bloomberg weekend. I'm curious whether they're going to turn
[32:40] Speaker 1: into some kind of TV series on Netflix or something else.
[32:44] Speaker 1: Because you talk about how there's like specific examples, right?
[32:47] Speaker 1: What happened in Amsterdam? What happened when Alexander Hamilton was
[32:51] Speaker 1: leading the treasury?
[32:52] Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. And even, you know, he brings in
[32:54] Speaker 4: the play from Broadway. And so he brings everything. He
[32:57] Speaker 4: even has Mary Childs in the book, I might point out.
[32:59] Speaker 11: Oh, really?
[33:00] Speaker 4: Ed Yardeni shows up early and then Sidney. Great book.
[33:03] Speaker 4: And I love You've Got Gretchen as your book this week.
[33:06] Speaker 12: Yes.
[33:06] Speaker 11: All right.
[33:06] Speaker 1: You teased it. Dead is at the heart of the
[33:08] Speaker 1: PE industry, which is one of the single most significant
[33:11] Speaker 1: wealth generators in the past 30, 40 years. You just
[33:14] Speaker 1: look at who owns all the sports teams and drives
[33:16] Speaker 1: Wall Street. So my book is Gretchen Morgenson and Joshua
[33:20] Speaker 1: Rosner's These Are the Plunderers, How P.E. Runs and Wrecks America.
[33:23] Speaker 1: So not subtle at all. They clearly have a point
[33:26] Speaker 1: of view. But it's really about how private equity financiers
[33:29] Speaker 1: use debt to fund corporate takeovers and load them up
[33:31] Speaker 1: with debt while cutting costs and generate big profits for
[33:34] Speaker 1: themselves and really remaking the economy in the process. And
[33:38] Speaker 1: We're now seeing it.
[33:38] Speaker 4: We're now learning it.
[33:39] Speaker 6: And what I hear all the time, and this goes
[33:41] Speaker 6: back to Susie Welch earlier in the program, you can't
[33:44] Speaker 6: do this without reading background. And that's what the Wigglesworth
[33:48] Speaker 6: and Morganson-Rosner books do. They're background to make you have
[33:52] Speaker 6: a deeper thought about what we're doing in personal finance.
[33:55] Speaker 1: I meet so many young people, and Sarah, I'm sure
[33:57] Speaker 1: you feel the same. You've encountered this as well, who
[34:00] Speaker 1: say that they want to go into private equity. This
[34:02] Speaker 1: is before they've ever worked in banking at all. They
[34:04] Speaker 1: just want the straight line to private equity because that's
[34:06] Speaker 1: how you build wealth. That's how you make a lot
[34:07] Speaker 1: of money. That's the new investment banking in Wall Street.
[34:10] Speaker 4: It's true.
[34:11] Speaker 11: There's this new rise in young earners who I think
[34:13] Speaker 11: have realized that you don't grow your wealth through your
[34:16] Speaker 11: salary alone. You kind of grow your wealth through assets.
[34:18] Speaker 11: And especially if you're able to kind of take a
[34:20] Speaker 11: job that woos you with some of these stock options,
[34:23] Speaker 11: maybe the ability to eventually work for a company that IPOs.
[34:25] Speaker 6: But they have a timeline of what? One year, two years?
[34:28] Speaker 6: Where am I going to be in four years, right?
[34:31] Speaker 11: The investing schedule is difficult and it's complicated. You know,
[34:33] Speaker 11: as we see, it's so much volatility in the market
[34:35] Speaker 11: that it's something you definitely have to consider.
[34:38] Speaker 1: All right, Sarah Foster, really appreciate you joining us as always.
[34:40] Speaker 1: Bloomberg reporter Sarah Foster with our coverage of student loans
[34:45] Speaker 1: as well as mortgages. For the latest reviews and recommendations
[34:48] Speaker 1: from Bloomberg, be sure to subscribe to the On Books newsletter. Tom,
[34:52] Speaker 1: your book once again, The Elegant Debt.
[34:56] Speaker 4: Oh, I like that. Robin, thank you so much. Scar
[34:58] Speaker 4: Butcher and the Fabulous Dead.
[35:01] Speaker 1: A Fabulous Dead.
[35:01] Speaker 4: A Fabulous Dead.
[35:02] Speaker 1: Fabulous Dead. All right. It may feel like summer. The
[35:05] Speaker 1: leaves are changing. Tom had an autumnal book. Will you
[35:08] Speaker 1: put gas in the tank to go see fall foliage?
[35:11] Speaker 1: We're going to take a look at what people are
[35:13] Speaker 1: spending their money on this weekend and in the weekends
[35:16] Speaker 1: to come. This is Bloomberg Money. That's upstate New York.
[35:20] Speaker 4: I think it's Central Park.
[35:22] Speaker 1: Central Park.
[35:29] Speaker 6: The Bloomberg Money, and we say good afternoon to you.
[35:31] Speaker 6: Scarlett Fu and Tom Keene with us now. Lisa Mateo,
[35:35] Speaker 6: any number of things to talk about to get to
[35:36] Speaker 6: this weekend and Bloomberg this weekend. But as we said
[35:39] Speaker 6: with Torsten Slott, Yankees on a roll, crushed the Red Sox.
[35:45] Speaker 6: No one was more happy. than Lisa Mateo. The Yankees
[35:49] Speaker 6: doing well. And of course, Lisa's been garbed in the
[35:52] Speaker 6: dreaded New York Yankees merch here over the years.
[35:56] Speaker 4: And oh, thank you for the Red Sox photos, guys.
[35:59] Speaker 8: Really appreciate it.
[36:01] Speaker 12: Oh, Tom, I'm so sorry.
[36:02] Speaker 1: I know you call them the dreaded Yankees.
[36:03] Speaker 12: But we have to go on because yes, the fabulous
[36:07] Speaker 12: jacket that I do have of the Yankees.
[36:10] Speaker 4: Thank you to Tom Keene, who looks so happy.
[36:16] Speaker 1: There's a first game of the ALDS on Saturday, right?
[36:19] Speaker 8: On Saturday, yeah, go to Tampa.
[36:20] Speaker 12: So after they swept the boss, they swept boss, and
[36:23] Speaker 12: we're moving on Saturday to Tampa Bay. And then from Saturday,
[36:26] Speaker 12: you go to Monday. But then Wednesday, they bring it
[36:29] Speaker 12: back home. And that's where you start looking up tickets
[36:31] Speaker 12: because my husband's already asking me, can we get tickets?
[36:33] Speaker 4: Talking about personal finance.
[36:35] Speaker 8: Yes, can we get tickets Wednesday?
[36:37] Speaker 11: No.
[36:37] Speaker 12: So if you look at behind where the Yankees sit, $ 6, 000,
[36:43] Speaker 12: about $ 6, 000 for one ticket.
[36:45] Speaker 6: So $ 12, 000.
[36:47] Speaker 1: That's the starting.
[36:49] Speaker 12: But then if you go all the way back to $ 200, 000,
[36:51] Speaker 12: $ 300, 000 section, which is usually where we are, it's about
[36:53] Speaker 12: between $ 200, 000 and $ 300, 000.
[36:55] Speaker 4: So there you go.
[36:56] Speaker 1: That feels a little more reasonable.
[36:57] Speaker 7: Yeah, $ 400, 000 range.
[36:58] Speaker 12: You can get them for $ 100, 000 and something.
[36:59] Speaker 2: But everyone's asking about the ticket.
[37:01] Speaker 4: Well, that's a nice banner. Yankees beat Red Sox.
[37:03] Speaker 11: Yes.
[37:03] Speaker 1: It still hurts. We did that special for you.
[37:05] Speaker 6: Doesn't it? Why don't we segue here to what matters
[37:08] Speaker 6: in the autumnal glow?
[37:10] Speaker 1: Oh, a lot of people driving out and checking out
[37:12] Speaker 1: the fall foliage.
[37:13] Speaker 12: I've already started. They started in the Poconos. You see
[37:15] Speaker 12: the colors already. We've been up there, way upstate. You
[37:17] Speaker 12: can start to see it too. And they have this
[37:19] Speaker 12: great ferry that takes you on this whole beer trekking,
[37:22] Speaker 12: you know.
[37:23] Speaker 4: Oh, I'm shocked.
[37:25] Speaker 8: Straight up the Hudson River.
[37:26] Speaker 1: It's amazing. Just in time for people to visit their
[37:29] Speaker 1: kids at school, right? Visiting weekends tend to coincide with
[37:32] Speaker 1: these fall foliage.
[37:33] Speaker 2: Correct, correct.
[37:34] Speaker 11: Yes, I know.
[37:35] Speaker 12: I just came back from visiting my daughter, so it
[37:37] Speaker 12: was a great experience.
[37:38] Speaker 1: There's also the possibility if you happen to fly, I
[37:40] Speaker 1: don't know if you know about this, United wants you
[37:43] Speaker 1: to defect from Delta or American. It's the battle of
[37:45] Speaker 1: the Wi-Fi. You have to think about it.
[37:47] Speaker 12: If you're going to travel, are you going to go
[37:48] Speaker 12: United or are you going to go Delta? Because United
[37:50] Speaker 12: has Elon Musk's Starlink and Delta does not. They have
[37:53] Speaker 12: Amazon Leo.
[37:54] Speaker 1: And this is in-flight Wi-Fi service. Yes, in-flight Wi-Fi. So
[37:58] Speaker 1: it's the whole back and forth.
[37:59] Speaker 12: United is trying to get Delta's customers to say, hey,
[38:02] Speaker 12: you know, through October 15th, we'll take you on and
[38:04] Speaker 12: we'll keep your loyalty points, too.
[38:06] Speaker 6: I mean, I know we do personal finance, but basically
[38:08] Speaker 6: because of Lisa's appearance here, SpaceX.
[38:11] Speaker 4: Is spiked up today.
[38:12] Speaker 8: Yes.
[38:13] Speaker 4: Up to a 157 level. And that's Starlink, right?
[38:16] Speaker 1: That's Starling.
[38:16] Speaker 8: That's right.
[38:16] Speaker 4: That is Starling.
[38:17] Speaker 1: Yes, among many, many businesses. But, you know, everyone's points.
[38:21] Speaker 1: That's personal finance.
[38:21] Speaker 4: Does your daughter bother you in class yet?
[38:24] Speaker 12: She is attempting, yes. She has a big anatomy physics
[38:27] Speaker 12: test today.
[38:28] Speaker 1: Well, good luck to her. She's a little stressed out.
[38:31] Speaker 1: But it's good.
[38:31] Speaker 2: It's very good. It's very good.
[38:32] Speaker 1: Lisa McHale, thank you so much. And make sure to
[38:34] Speaker 1: watch Bloomberg this weekend every Saturday and Sunday morning starting
[38:37] Speaker 1: at 7 a.m. Eastern time. That does it for Bloomberg
[38:39] Speaker 1: Money today. Have a great day.
[38:42] Speaker 6: This is the Bloomberg Money Podcast, bringing you a smart
[38:45] Speaker 6: look at the forces shaping your financial life. I'm Tom
[38:49] Speaker 6: Keen with Scarlett Fu. You can watch the show live
[38:53] Speaker 6: on Bloomberg TV every Friday at noon Wall Street time.
[38:57] Speaker 6: Subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
[39:01] Speaker 6: And as always, on the Bloomberg Terminal and the Bloomberg
[39:05] Speaker 6: Business app.
[39:09] Speaker 11: Bye.

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