# You Are Not Alone With Postpartum Depression

An episode of [Stuff You Should Know](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/278981407), 14 Jul 2026, 46 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/a91018a4-ea4f-4130-bf55-ae270180c327/42242b48-41d0-48f8-a02a-b486014e2fcc/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=44710ecc-10bb-48d1-93c7-ae270180c33e

Most new moms get the baby blues soon after giving birth. Postpartum depression is something much different - the symptoms are similar, but their intensity can have sweeping effects on mom, baby, and the whole family. Fortunately, it’s highly treatable but the catch is moms usually have to ask for help. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:01] Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
[0:11] Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
[0:14] Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you
[0:16] Speaker 2: should Know. The Bummer Edition. Man, we're hoping to shine
[0:22] Speaker 2: a light on something to help people out.
[0:25] Speaker 1: That's right, the edition. You know how we do these
[0:29] Speaker 1: playlist once a quarter now, which, by the way, I
[0:32] Speaker 1: hope people are enjoying those, sort of collecting things in
[0:35] Speaker 1: groups and releasing them once a quarter in groups of
[0:37] Speaker 1: ten or twelve. I thought it was kind of a
[0:39] Speaker 1: fun idea and we've been enjoying it. But maybe one
[0:42] Speaker 1: day something we can bucket is just really sad, joke
[0:46] Speaker 1: free episodes that we feel like are almost like a
[0:49] Speaker 1: public service announcement.
[0:51] Speaker 2: For sure.
[0:51] Speaker 1: We just call them Bummer Episodes.
[0:53] Speaker 2: You need to hear, right, I think that's a great title.
[0:56] Speaker 2: Let's do that. We have enough for sure.
[0:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this would definitely be one of them,
[1:01] Speaker 1: because we're talking about postpartum depression and sort of the
[1:06] Speaker 1: general bucket of post and even pre natal and during
[1:13] Speaker 1: natal troubles that women go through because there are, you know,
[1:19] Speaker 1: several subcategories that they kind of place under postpartum depression.
[1:23] Speaker 1: But it is a real serious thing that affects you know,
[1:27] Speaker 1: I saw ten to fifteen percent. I think Dave helped
[1:31] Speaker 1: us with this, and he said one in eight, which
[1:33] Speaker 1: is about twelve percent of women experience this. And it's
[1:37] Speaker 1: one of those things that is not talked about enough
[1:40] Speaker 1: to where it seems like the numbers could be higher
[1:43] Speaker 1: because people are still ashamed to admit this kind of
[1:46] Speaker 1: thing happens.
[1:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a definite stigma on this, to varying
[1:53] Speaker 2: degrees depending on your culture, ethnic group. Yeah, but basically
[1:58] Speaker 2: across the board, you're going to find a stigma against
[2:01] Speaker 2: a new mother who can't get it together for her baby.
[2:06] Speaker 2: That's kind of like what people sometimes look at it as.
[2:10] Speaker 2: And if you were basically being looked at like that
[2:13] Speaker 2: and you're already down on yourself because you're not performing
[2:17] Speaker 2: perfectly to your own standards or whatever that heaped on
[2:21] Speaker 2: top of it, you're probably not gonna be like everybody,
[2:24] Speaker 2: I need help. You're gonna just kind of dig in
[2:26] Speaker 2: and just keep trying to go. And that is the
[2:29] Speaker 2: exact opposite of what you're supposed to do with any
[2:32] Speaker 2: of what are called maternal mental health issues. There's a
[2:36] Speaker 2: whole umbrella term. It's not just postpartum depression or perinatal depression.
[2:41] Speaker 2: There's a bunch of other ones we'll talk about a
[2:43] Speaker 2: little bit too, but all of them add up to
[2:47] Speaker 2: you got to ask for help. You also have to
[2:49] Speaker 2: be on the lookout for needing to offer help to
[2:53] Speaker 2: the new mother too, if you're the father or a
[2:56] Speaker 2: family member or a friend or something.
[2:58] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a brutal situation where I mean, giving birth
[3:02] Speaker 1: is a you know, it can be a very wonderful,
[3:06] Speaker 1: joyous thing, but no matter how you slice it, it's
[3:08] Speaker 1: it's a very big sort of and traumatic doesn't always
[3:14] Speaker 1: necessarily I think mean something awful, but just such a
[3:18] Speaker 1: big life event that then you're then expected like and
[3:21] Speaker 1: now it's supposed to be the best thing ever, and
[3:24] Speaker 1: you're gonna be the happiest you've ever been immediately despite
[3:28] Speaker 1: these huge hormonal swings, right, and you're gonna be a
[3:31] Speaker 1: perfect mom. You're gonna be such a great mom. You're
[3:33] Speaker 1: gonna be a perfect mom. It's just it's just so
[3:35] Speaker 1: much pressure, and so yeah, this is a bit of
[3:38] Speaker 1: a PSA for sure.
[3:39] Speaker 2: For sure. And hit you hit something on the nose,
[3:43] Speaker 2: the being perfect immediately. I mean, being perfect is too
[3:48] Speaker 2: high an expectation anyway. Nobody's perfect. But the idea that
[3:51] Speaker 2: you're just supposed to immediately click with your kid and
[3:54] Speaker 2: just now you're a perfect mom or a great mom
[3:57] Speaker 2: like that is not how it plays out very often,
[4:00] Speaker 2: I would guess most of the time. It day.
[4:02] Speaker 1: It's a process exactly.
[4:05] Speaker 2: So, like I said, postpartum depression or perry natal I'm
[4:08] Speaker 2: just gonna call it postpartum I basically don't know anybody
[4:11] Speaker 2: who's ever called it pery natal depression. Yeah, so we're
[4:15] Speaker 2: just gonna call it postpartum depression, with the caveat that
[4:18] Speaker 2: it doesn't just happen after birth. It can happen while
[4:22] Speaker 2: during the pregnancy as well.
[4:23] Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, and up to a year following birth as well.
[4:27] Speaker 2: For sure. So again this falls under the umbrella term
[4:30] Speaker 2: of maternal mental health. There's also some others postpartum anxiety,
[4:35] Speaker 2: postpartum obsessive compulsive disorder. We'll talk about those a little
[4:38] Speaker 2: bit later. But when you put all of these things together,
[4:45] Speaker 2: you get a really bleak picture of mothers in the
[4:48] Speaker 2: United States, whereas the rest of the world is doing
[4:52] Speaker 2: better and better with maternal mental health. The US keeps
[4:56] Speaker 2: getting worse and worse, and I mean like a lot worse.
[5:00] Speaker 1: Yeah. There was a CDC study that found that rates
[5:03] Speaker 1: of postpartum depression were seven times higher in twenty fifteen
[5:07] Speaker 1: than they were in two thousand and between twenty sixteen
[5:10] Speaker 1: and twenty twenty three, new moms reported nearly sixty five
[5:13] Speaker 1: percent increase of fair to poor mental health. It is,
[5:19] Speaker 1: oh man, it is the leading cause of death among
[5:23] Speaker 1: new mothers now in the United States, with suicide and
[5:27] Speaker 1: drug overdose accounting for twenty two percent of all postpartum
[5:31] Speaker 1: maternal deaths in the United States. So crazy, you know,
[5:34] Speaker 1: maternal death rates. You usually look at it as like,
[5:37] Speaker 1: you know, something tragic happened in the birth, like physically
[5:40] Speaker 1: or biologically. And in the United States, the leading cause
[5:43] Speaker 1: of death is suicide and drug overdoses.
[5:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and this is the highest in the
[5:49] Speaker 2: developed world by far, and that increases the highest in
[5:54] Speaker 2: the developed world, right, So it's it's a crisis in
[5:59] Speaker 2: the United States. It's a crisis worldwide, but in the
[6:01] Speaker 2: United States it's like a five alarm fire apparently. Yeah,
[6:07] Speaker 2: I'd be really interested to know what the problem is,
[6:11] Speaker 2: what's behind those figures are underneath those figures same. You
[6:16] Speaker 2: think it's a the the the United States transition toward
[6:20] Speaker 2: the becoming the society from a Handmaid's tale.
[6:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm hansome to do with it.
[6:26] Speaker 2: So one of the other things about the postpartum depression
[6:30] Speaker 2: too that's really problematic is and you kind of touched
[6:33] Speaker 2: on this early on. I think something like half of
[6:37] Speaker 2: cases just go undiagnosed, in part because even doctors sometimes
[6:43] Speaker 2: are like, you'll be fine, just get over, just get
[6:46] Speaker 2: back in there, you know, give it the old college
[6:48] Speaker 2: try and families too, And I think that that self
[6:52] Speaker 2: inflicted stigma too that new mothers have.
[6:55] Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know it's it's one of the reasons
[6:58] Speaker 1: is because and you know, they have screw tools. Now,
[7:00] Speaker 1: there's one called the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale to determine
[7:05] Speaker 1: like when that line has crossed because the the baby
[7:08] Speaker 1: blues or the postpartum blues or something that happens a lot,
[7:14] Speaker 1: like maybe even most pregnancies, you end up for you know,
[7:18] Speaker 1: up to like a week or two having these hormonal
[7:21] Speaker 1: swings where there's like overlapsing symptoms with what ends up
[7:24] Speaker 1: being PPD. So that's why a lot of reason it
[7:27] Speaker 1: becomes undiagnosed is because people think like, well, this is
[7:30] Speaker 1: just the baby blues. I'm surfering from some sadness and
[7:33] Speaker 1: crying and because and feeling overwhelmed, certainly because this is
[7:39] Speaker 1: maybe my first time. Although I should point out that
[7:42] Speaker 1: postpartum is not limited to first birth at all, right,
[7:45] Speaker 1: it can happen with any like their third birth, the
[7:49] Speaker 1: third kid, fourth kid, whatever. But the overlap is so
[7:52] Speaker 1: great that a lot of times I think people are like, well,
[7:54] Speaker 1: it'll pass, it'll pass, it's just the baby blues. But
[7:57] Speaker 1: if it goes on for more than a week or two,
[7:58] Speaker 1: you're probably in PP territory.
[8:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not that the postpartum depression is a like
[8:06] Speaker 2: a different thing than the baby blues. It's the severity
[8:09] Speaker 2: of the symptoms, the same symptoms and the duration of
[8:13] Speaker 2: those same symptoms that really differentiate it and make it
[8:16] Speaker 2: something that like you need help for, Like you need
[8:18] Speaker 2: to get professional help. It's not just going to go
[8:22] Speaker 2: away on its own, or if it does, it's going
[8:24] Speaker 2: to you're going to grind through years of it locally
[8:27] Speaker 2: unnecessarily because we didn't say this yet. It's very highly treatable.
[8:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, that's the good news, and we'll get
[8:34] Speaker 1: to that. But you know, some of those symptoms we
[8:36] Speaker 1: should list are loss of appetite, difficulty sleeping, feeling worthlessness
[8:43] Speaker 1: or maybe even guilt or shame, anxiety, panic, irritability, anger,
[8:50] Speaker 1: big time mood swings, difficulty with bonding with your baby,
[8:54] Speaker 1: and again are these can be the baby blues or
[8:57] Speaker 1: if they're super severe and go on long enough, like
[8:59] Speaker 1: you said, it develops into PPD. And it's the kind
[9:03] Speaker 1: of thing that can also start several weeks two a
[9:05] Speaker 1: month later, So you got to keep an eye out,
[9:08] Speaker 1: like if those first couple of weeks or like you're like,
[9:11] Speaker 1: oh man, I managed to dodge this, it also might
[9:14] Speaker 1: start later and that's okay. You just need to be aware, right.
[9:21] Speaker 2: I said that there's other disorders under the umbrella of
[9:25] Speaker 2: maternal mental health issues, and another one is postpartum psychosis,
[9:30] Speaker 2: and it's essentially what it sounds like. The mental health
[9:34] Speaker 2: disorder can become so pronounced after birth that you may
[9:38] Speaker 2: suffer from delusions, You may become paranoid, you may be disoriented,
[9:44] Speaker 2: you may feel disassociated from the people around you or
[9:48] Speaker 2: the world itself or reality. And that is considered so
[9:53] Speaker 2: postpartum depression is something you need to seek help for.
[9:56] Speaker 2: Postpartum psychosis is considered a you immediately take a trip
[10:00] Speaker 2: to the er when you or the people around you
[10:03] Speaker 2: figure out that you are suffering from postpartum psychoasis. It's like,
[10:07] Speaker 2: get in the car, maybe you can throw on a
[10:09] Speaker 2: robe and just go to the er.
[10:12] Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's very rare. We should say it's one
[10:15] Speaker 1: out of every one thousand berths. But they say that
[10:18] Speaker 1: because very sadly, about four point five percent of the
[10:21] Speaker 1: cases of that psychosis result in harm to the baby
[10:25] Speaker 1: and five percent result in suicide. And you know, if
[10:30] Speaker 1: you've ever seen some terrible news report about like a
[10:34] Speaker 1: mom that said, you know, God told me to drown
[10:36] Speaker 1: my baby, that's what we're talking about here. Because delusions
[10:41] Speaker 1: of grandeur, a lot of times religious in nature, obsessive
[10:45] Speaker 1: thoughts about harming you or harming your baby, extreme paranoia
[10:49] Speaker 1: like that kind of thing. That's that's what falls under
[10:52] Speaker 1: the postpartum psychosis spanner.
[10:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, And from researching postpartum psychosis, they found that there
[10:58] Speaker 2: are some additional risk factors. Seems like the number one
[11:03] Speaker 2: risk factor for developing it is if you have a history,
[11:06] Speaker 2: whether personal or familial, of bipolar disorder, and that if
[11:11] Speaker 2: you start having sleep loss that triggers abouts of mania,
[11:18] Speaker 2: that is a really big red flag that you are
[11:20] Speaker 2: at a great risk of going on to develop postpartum psychosis.
[11:25] Speaker 2: Meaning so sleep loss which you already are getting from
[11:30] Speaker 2: just having a new baby, but if that triggers mania,
[11:32] Speaker 2: that's a big red flag and that's probably what kicks
[11:36] Speaker 2: the whole thing off, is that loss of sleep. It's
[11:39] Speaker 2: like crazy important and it's nuts that evolution didn't take
[11:43] Speaker 2: that into account, like, oh, yeah, we need to make
[11:45] Speaker 2: sure everybody sleeps after this, stays awake for the next
[11:48] Speaker 2: two years because it'll drive people crazy, like that can
[11:53] Speaker 2: trigger that all of these maternal mental health issues.
[11:58] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that can be rough on a family.
[12:00] Speaker 1: We got very very lucky with Ruby and that she
[12:03] Speaker 1: was a pretty good sleeper from early on, but I've
[12:06] Speaker 1: heard some nightmare stories and it's really tough. Sleep is
[12:11] Speaker 1: so so important. I think another thing we didn't point
[12:14] Speaker 1: out was for the postpartum psychosis, it's almost always a
[12:18] Speaker 1: first time pregnancy too, which is differentiates it from postpartum
[12:23] Speaker 1: general postpartum depression. But you know, some similar risk factors
[12:28] Speaker 1: for regular PPD. If you have a history of depression
[12:32] Speaker 1: or anxiety, you're more likely. If you had a childhood
[12:35] Speaker 1: trauma that you experienced, if you underwent infertility treatment, you
[12:40] Speaker 1: may be more likely to if it's an unplanned pregnancy,
[12:44] Speaker 1: or if you're a low income mother, especially if you're
[12:47] Speaker 1: like literally living in poverty, they experience PPD at twice
[12:50] Speaker 1: the rate of higher income moms. And there are also
[12:54] Speaker 1: a couple of biological factors if you suffer from anemia
[12:57] Speaker 1: or hypothyroidism, and then it can be genetic. I think
[13:02] Speaker 1: depending on what study you've seen, us seen anywhere from
[13:04] Speaker 1: fourteen to thirty percent have like potentially a genetic factor,
[13:10] Speaker 1: like inheritable.
[13:11] Speaker 2: Oh really, I hadn't seen that at all. Let's talk
[13:15] Speaker 2: about postpartum er perinatal OCD and perinatal mood and anxiety
[13:22] Speaker 2: disorder real quick too. Okay, yeah, so POCD. This is
[13:27] Speaker 2: this to me sounds like the hardest to deal with,
[13:29] Speaker 2: because I think you're probably the least likely to step
[13:31] Speaker 2: forward and say I need some help. Everybody. But it's
[13:35] Speaker 2: obsessive compulsive disorder that develops way more quickly than typical
[13:40] Speaker 2: obsessive compulsive disorder, usually very shortly after birth or after
[13:46] Speaker 2: the baby's born, and it's you know, like ritual behaviors
[13:53] Speaker 2: like checking on the baby incessantly, worrying that the baby's
[13:56] Speaker 2: going to get contaminated with germs, and lots of intrusive
[14:01] Speaker 2: thoughts that can be super disturbing.
[14:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's a natural
[14:06] Speaker 1: tendency if you've, especially for a first time parent, to
[14:09] Speaker 1: have this new, seemingly very fragile, tender thing that you're
[14:13] Speaker 1: in charge of keeping alive. It's a pretty natural instinct,
[14:17] Speaker 1: I think to maybe think like, they're so small and
[14:22] Speaker 1: so fragile. So my dumb advice just as a parent,
[14:27] Speaker 1: is like they're they're more robust than you think, and
[14:32] Speaker 1: they're made to survive, and they're made to live generally speaking,
[14:36] Speaker 1: so you have that on your side. But I can
[14:39] Speaker 1: see how it's pretty easy for maybe someone to go
[14:42] Speaker 1: down this road of worrying about germs or checking on
[14:45] Speaker 1: the baby every like ten minutes in the middle of
[14:48] Speaker 1: the night, and to become sort of obsessive this. The
[14:52] Speaker 1: POCD can cross the line into some even unwanted sexual obsessions,
[14:59] Speaker 1: like mother apparently can have sexualized images flashing through their
[15:03] Speaker 1: mind while they're changing a diaper, which is just sort
[15:07] Speaker 1: of creates a cycle of you thinking like, what's wrong
[15:10] Speaker 1: with me? What's going on? I'm having this weird thing
[15:12] Speaker 1: flash through my head? Right, And in reality, that's all
[15:16] Speaker 1: it is, is just like asleep, or your hormones or
[15:20] Speaker 1: something just really unusual that flashed through your head. And
[15:25] Speaker 1: as an intrusive thought, it does not mean that that's
[15:29] Speaker 1: who you are or what or you're leading to some
[15:32] Speaker 1: awful outcome.
[15:33] Speaker 2: Right, And I think that's kind of worth saying again, Chuck,
[15:36] Speaker 2: because this is the kind of thing that you would
[15:39] Speaker 2: not who you're going to tell that to? Oh, and
[15:40] Speaker 2: having sexualized thoughts about our baby? Yeah, right, you're not
[15:44] Speaker 2: going to tell that to anybody. It's going to be
[15:46] Speaker 2: so tough to admit that. So you have to know
[15:50] Speaker 2: that it's not you. It is your hormones, it is
[15:53] Speaker 2: not you. You do you have not suddenly developed a
[15:56] Speaker 2: sexual attraction to infants or children, like, it's not you.
[16:01] Speaker 2: So if you're having thoughts like this, you're not alone.
[16:03] Speaker 2: It's actually more common than you would think, And like,
[16:07] Speaker 2: you can get treatment for this, and you should get
[16:09] Speaker 2: treatment for it, because you're probably really being hard on
[16:12] Speaker 2: yourself right now.
[16:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and if you give into that thought,
[16:17] Speaker 1: then that's when you're maybe avoiding bathing your baby or
[16:20] Speaker 1: avoiding caring and holding for your baby. So it's a
[16:24] Speaker 1: tough thing to come forward and talk to people. So
[16:27] Speaker 1: that's why it's really great to have a great support
[16:29] Speaker 1: system of other moms, friends and families to people to
[16:34] Speaker 1: lean on, because I guarantee you, if you say the
[16:37] Speaker 1: weirdest thought you've had out loud in a group of
[16:39] Speaker 1: moms that will be a couple of them, then they
[16:42] Speaker 1: are like, I had the same thoughts, It's okay.
[16:44] Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, hopefully you have a group like that
[16:48] Speaker 2: or confined one, you know.
[16:49] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[16:50] Speaker 2: Then there's some postnatal mood and anxiety disorder, which essentially
[16:55] Speaker 2: is a really terrible positive feedback loop to where you
[16:59] Speaker 2: feel like you're not bonding with your baby well enough
[17:02] Speaker 2: or fast enough, and so you start to become anxious,
[17:06] Speaker 2: which the baby picks up on, and the baby becomes
[17:09] Speaker 2: distressed or less likely to connect with you or pay
[17:13] Speaker 2: attention to you, which makes it harder for you to
[17:15] Speaker 2: read the baby, which makes it less likely for you
[17:18] Speaker 2: to bond in any kind of quick fashion and it
[17:21] Speaker 2: just keeps going in this cycle.
[17:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And you know what, I want to
[17:26] Speaker 1: recommend a podcast because if you maybe you are a
[17:30] Speaker 1: little more isolated and you don't feel like you have
[17:32] Speaker 1: this or or if you just don't have this sort
[17:34] Speaker 1: of support system around you. Our old buddy Jesse Thorn,
[17:40] Speaker 1: who runs the Maximum Fund Network and co hosts with
[17:43] Speaker 1: Judge John Hodgman with our pal his wonderful wife, Teresa Is.
[17:48] Speaker 1: She's just the best. And I don't think they do
[17:51] Speaker 1: it anymore, but Teresa and biz Ellis had a show
[17:54] Speaker 1: called One Bad Mother. Oh yeah, I remember that for
[17:57] Speaker 1: a long time and I'm pretty sure they still but
[18:00] Speaker 1: they did it for many, many years, and One Bad
[18:02] Speaker 1: Mother was just a great outlet and support system for
[18:07] Speaker 1: just this kind of stuff. For you know, the message
[18:10] Speaker 1: was always like you're doing just fine, You're doing okay.
[18:13] Speaker 1: You think you're the worst, and you're really the best,
[18:15] Speaker 1: And like, you know, if you're having a hard time
[18:18] Speaker 1: and you're you feel like you're alone in this, like
[18:20] Speaker 1: turn on that podcast, like do something like that to
[18:23] Speaker 1: know that you're not alone out there.
[18:25] Speaker 2: Right and pour yourself a mega pine of wine and
[18:29] Speaker 2: treat yourself to the Bad Mom's Trilogy in one sitting.
[18:33] Speaker 2: That's right, So you want to take a break, Yeah.
[18:38] Speaker 1: Let's take a break and we'll get into some statistics
[18:40] Speaker 1: about other communities and how they deal with this. All right, everyone,
[19:05] Speaker 1: we're back. We promise talk about statistics, and in this case,
[19:11] Speaker 1: there are some pretty stark racial disparities when it comes
[19:14] Speaker 1: to PPD as far as the incidents of occurrence and
[19:19] Speaker 1: very sadly treatment. Up to forty percent of black and
[19:22] Speaker 1: Latina moms suffer from PPD, which is about twice the
[19:25] Speaker 1: rate of non Hispanic white moms, and single black mothers
[19:29] Speaker 1: are six times more likely than the general population to
[19:33] Speaker 1: experience it, really sadly. Latino women and Black women are
[19:40] Speaker 1: fifty seven percent and forty one percent, respectively, less likely
[19:44] Speaker 1: to start treatment for PPD than white women.
[19:47] Speaker 2: Right, And there's a lot of reasons for why they're
[19:50] Speaker 2: less likely to start treatment. In part there's a stigma,
[19:54] Speaker 2: just like with any culture. I think in Latino culture
[19:58] Speaker 2: that stigma can be even stronger than white or Black culture.
[20:02] Speaker 2: But for say black women in particular, it can often
[20:06] Speaker 2: go undiagnosed because it doesn't present as the classic symptoms
[20:09] Speaker 2: that the embra scale is designed to detect rather than
[20:14] Speaker 2: depressive symptoms. Black mom might have irritability, self criticism, deep fatigue, insomnia.
[20:22] Speaker 2: These are not all necessarily shared by all new mothers,
[20:27] Speaker 2: and so it just the doctor just might miss it.
[20:30] Speaker 2: They might be like, hey, you're just agro stop being
[20:33] Speaker 2: I grow.
[20:33] Speaker 1: Right, you know, yeah, I think they came up with
[20:36] Speaker 1: a different a different scale just for black mothers, right.
[20:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, the Jackson Hogue Phillips Contextualized Stress Measure, which next
[20:46] Speaker 2: time you have a party, give that out as a
[20:49] Speaker 2: party favor for guests.
[20:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But that's great that they were like, hey,
[20:53] Speaker 1: we have a we have a hole in our treatment
[20:57] Speaker 1: plan here as far as you've been diagnosing this in
[20:59] Speaker 1: black woms. Right, so they came up with their own scale,
[21:01] Speaker 1: which is awesome. Basically everybody, The American College of Obstetricians
[21:07] Speaker 1: and Gynecologists, the AMA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, everyone
[21:12] Speaker 1: says recommends that everybody should be screened for prenatal or sorry,
[21:17] Speaker 1: perinatal depression, But very sadly, less than twenty percent of
[21:20] Speaker 1: all women are screened for these mental health disorders, and
[21:25] Speaker 1: those numbers are a lot lower for women of color.
[21:27] Speaker 2: Right, So those are reasons why they might not actually
[21:31] Speaker 2: go seek out treatment for PPD. There's also reasons why
[21:37] Speaker 2: they're more likely to suffer from PPD in the first place,
[21:40] Speaker 2: and those seem to center on social determinants of health.
[21:44] Speaker 1: Yeah, which is like.
[21:45] Speaker 2: Your environment, your income level, the amount of free time
[21:51] Speaker 2: you might even have to go see the doctor. All
[21:53] Speaker 2: of these things tend to be less than what a
[21:57] Speaker 2: white mother would experience, and all of them help increase
[22:01] Speaker 2: the likelihood of experiencing postpartum depression.
[22:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
[22:06] Speaker 2: So regardless Chuck, of whatever your ethnic or racial group,
[22:11] Speaker 2: there are essentially the same causes I mean, PPD, even
[22:15] Speaker 2: though it might manifest itself differently. Even though access to
[22:18] Speaker 2: help for PPD is different, those are all human made obstacles. Yeah,
[22:24] Speaker 2: the biological basis for it is the same in every case.
[22:29] Speaker 2: And essentially it's a combination of hormones and the stark,
[22:35] Speaker 2: raving horror that is becoming a new pit.
[22:39] Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. Like we were saying, you're thrown into
[22:41] Speaker 1: this brand new thing where your first charge is like,
[22:45] Speaker 1: all right, keep this baby alive.
[22:47] Speaker 2: Oh I cannot imagine.
[22:50] Speaker 1: I mean I remember, and this is like I imagine
[22:53] Speaker 1: it's the same with adoption as with it just you know,
[22:58] Speaker 1: regular birth, but you know, all of and someone just
[23:00] Speaker 1: hands you a baby and the nurses see the look
[23:04] Speaker 1: on your face, and hopefully the nurses are all as
[23:07] Speaker 1: great as ours were, as they're just like, you're doing fine.
[23:11] Speaker 1: They told us. What I said was like, hey, these
[23:13] Speaker 1: babies are meant to stay alive. You're gonna be just fine.
[23:16] Speaker 1: Just feed them this way, and you're on the right
[23:21] Speaker 1: track by just getting food into their body. And so,
[23:25] Speaker 1: you know, like I said, you know, evolution has happened
[23:28] Speaker 1: in such a way where they want these babies to live.
[23:32] Speaker 1: So you've already got a bit of a head start,
[23:34] Speaker 1: but being bombarded by hormones and a change in hormones
[23:40] Speaker 1: is definitely something that's hard to deal with because your
[23:43] Speaker 1: body's bombarded with hormones because you're pregnant to help you,
[23:47] Speaker 1: you know, to help you be successfully pregnant and to
[23:50] Speaker 1: stay pregnant. And then immediately after, within like seventy two hours,
[23:53] Speaker 1: most of these hormones go back to their previous state,
[23:57] Speaker 1: and that's just a big break to throw on.
[24:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty mean of evolution really to just be like,
[24:04] Speaker 2: here's all the stuff that you need to have a baby.
[24:06] Speaker 2: Now you don't have a baby anymore. Who cares about
[24:09] Speaker 2: you and your baby? Like, thanks for the ride, lady.
[24:13] Speaker 1: Right. They could have been like, well, let's just tap
[24:15] Speaker 1: these down, like very slowly of the course of six months.
[24:18] Speaker 2: Yeah, what the hey, you know, I know I'm a
[24:21] Speaker 2: childless man, sis even, and I am offended by that.
[24:27] Speaker 2: I'm mad at natural selection for that. It's just totally unfair.
[24:30] Speaker 2: It's it's just unfair.
[24:33] Speaker 1: Well, what are some of these hormones. Let's talk about them.
[24:35] Speaker 2: Well, you got good old progesterone. Everybody knows that one.
[24:38] Speaker 2: That one won the Super Bowl last year.
[24:42] Speaker 1: That's right.
[24:43] Speaker 2: It helps you create your placenta that the baby's going
[24:46] Speaker 2: to I guess attached to I remember if I remember
[24:50] Speaker 2: my health classer math grade correctly.
[24:52] Speaker 1: Okay.
[24:53] Speaker 2: It also stimulates blood vessel growth, which helps get nutrients
[24:57] Speaker 2: and oxygen to the womb. Progesterone, it's like any hormone.
[25:01] Speaker 2: It's actually quite clever. We have a finite number of hormones,
[25:04] Speaker 2: not that many, actually, I'm not sure how many. But
[25:06] Speaker 2: they do so many different things, and they do so
[25:09] Speaker 2: many different things in combinations. It's just elegant and beautiful
[25:13] Speaker 2: the human body can be, except when the hormone levels
[25:16] Speaker 2: drop too quickly.
[25:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. There's also, of course estrogen that's going
[25:20] Speaker 1: to help the uters grow, contribute to fetal development. As
[25:24] Speaker 1: far as organs and things go, it's going to stimulate
[25:26] Speaker 1: that milk duct development. Relaxing is another one that's the
[25:32] Speaker 1: most chill of all. That's going to inhibit uterine contractions
[25:37] Speaker 1: until you need them to avoid premature birth. And then
[25:40] Speaker 1: it's going to do double duty and relax and soft
[25:43] Speaker 1: within the pelvic joints when you're preparing for birth. And
[25:47] Speaker 1: then finally we have oxytocin. They really shoot through the
[25:51] Speaker 1: roof at the beginning of labor to stimulate uterine contractions. Yeah.
[25:56] Speaker 1: And then again, like we said, within about seventy two
[25:59] Speaker 1: hours of birth, at least, estrogen and progesterone that had
[26:03] Speaker 1: increased tenfold just goes back to normal. Yeah, And these
[26:07] Speaker 1: huge hormonal swings are just tough to deal with. You know,
[26:11] Speaker 1: it's tough to know which way is up.
[26:13] Speaker 2: Okay, that's just the hormonal the biological aspect of it.
[26:18] Speaker 2: There's also the environmental aspect of it. The nurture version
[26:22] Speaker 2: that was nature. This is the nurture part, and having
[26:26] Speaker 2: a new baby comes along with all of a sudden
[26:29] Speaker 2: you have to stay at home with your new baby
[26:31] Speaker 2: and can't do anything. You aren't sleeping. I think that
[26:36] Speaker 2: that is like kind of overlooked by people who've never
[26:38] Speaker 2: had kids or underestimated. I think maybe who haven't had
[26:44] Speaker 2: kids that don't sleep very well. And then you also
[26:48] Speaker 2: have to nurse. You have been physically gone through the ringer,
[26:54] Speaker 2: taken through the ringer. Like, there's all sorts of different
[26:56] Speaker 2: things that come that are specific exclusively to just having
[27:00] Speaker 2: had a baby that combined with the hormones, they just
[27:04] Speaker 2: come together and at the very least give almost all
[27:08] Speaker 2: new mothers the baby blues, and then some moms postpartum depression,
[27:13] Speaker 2: postpartum mood and anxiety disorder, postpartum psychosis, postpartum MOSTCD.
[27:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, as far as the sleep thing goes,
[27:21] Speaker 1: even if you have like a great sleeper like we did,
[27:23] Speaker 1: you're still going to have disrupted sleep for a while
[27:25] Speaker 1: because you have to get up and feed that baby
[27:27] Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, and some people have
[27:29] Speaker 1: a really hard time going back to bed. So this
[27:33] Speaker 1: is when partners need to really really, really, really really
[27:37] Speaker 1: step up if you have a partner when you're having
[27:40] Speaker 1: a baby. Imagine, I can't imagine how tough this is
[27:43] Speaker 1: on your own, but yeah, step up, take feet in
[27:47] Speaker 1: the middle of the night feedings. Let that mom get
[27:50] Speaker 1: as much sleep as possible. And then they also say
[27:53] Speaker 1: sleep when the baby sleep. So embrace those naps all
[27:57] Speaker 1: day long. If like, your baby has a great nap
[27:59] Speaker 1: in the afternoon, so should you.
[28:01] Speaker 2: Right, don't like your mother in law, Well, if she's
[28:04] Speaker 2: willing to come over and watch the baby overnight, fake it.
[28:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, oh man, And we had a lot of help,
[28:10] Speaker 1: so like, because you know, my mom and Emily's mom,
[28:13] Speaker 1: we're both living here at the time, and so I
[28:16] Speaker 1: just really feel for people that don't have that kind
[28:19] Speaker 1: of help and feel like they're trapped at home. So
[28:21] Speaker 1: my other advice as a systad is to get out
[28:25] Speaker 1: in the world. You might think that your baby is
[28:28] Speaker 1: just a walking sickness bomb waiting to happen if they
[28:33] Speaker 1: go and breathe the world's air. Ye, but there's nothing
[28:36] Speaker 1: better than you can do for yourself and any baby
[28:38] Speaker 1: than to get out in the world as much as possible,
[28:40] Speaker 1: as soon as possible. Yeah, they'll be just fine.
[28:43] Speaker 2: Great advice, Chuck, you are just rolling with it today.
[28:47] Speaker 1: Well, I hope i've learned something.
[28:49] Speaker 2: I think you've learned a lot. Yeah, so, yes, you
[28:53] Speaker 2: have your hormone levels plummeting. That seems like a pretty
[28:56] Speaker 2: good answer to where postpartum depression comes from, right, Yeah,
[29:01] Speaker 2: But it turns out that they've zoomed in, they've gotten
[29:03] Speaker 2: even more granular. If you're like a C suite type
[29:08] Speaker 2: and have figured out that there's this one hormone in
[29:10] Speaker 2: particular that really seems to be largely responsible. It's not
[29:14] Speaker 2: the only one responsible for it, but it's a pretty
[29:18] Speaker 2: It got caught red handed with like a bag with
[29:21] Speaker 2: the dollar sign on it, wearing a black mask, kind
[29:24] Speaker 2: of skulking away.
[29:25] Speaker 1: That's right, So what is it, Chuck? It is alo pregnanolone.
[29:30] Speaker 1: It's funny. Dave wrote this and he was like, good
[29:32] Speaker 1: luck pronouncing that, And Dave, Buddy, that one's pretty easy
[29:35] Speaker 1: compared to a lot of the stuff that we.
[29:36] Speaker 2: See, for sure.
[29:38] Speaker 1: But that is deletrious. That's a steroid naturally produced in
[29:42] Speaker 1: the brain, and it plays a couple of key roles
[29:45] Speaker 1: during pregnancy, and that it inhibits the release of b oxytocin,
[29:49] Speaker 1: which we already talked about to avoid premature labor, which
[29:51] Speaker 1: you don't want. It also protects the developing fetal brain
[29:55] Speaker 1: from all those stress hormones that mom has.
[29:59] Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so this is pretty great stuff. Unfortunately, just
[30:03] Speaker 2: like all the other hormones, it says, so long I've
[30:08] Speaker 2: done my thing, like within you know, a couple of
[30:11] Speaker 2: days of having given birth. So all of a sudden,
[30:14] Speaker 2: not only is this a hormonal change, this natural antidepressant
[30:18] Speaker 2: has suddenly just vanished on you. And this can really
[30:23] Speaker 2: seem to trigger postpyerum depression in a lot of women.
[30:28] Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. So it's going to lower their anxiety
[30:32] Speaker 1: for a while while they're pregnant and boost a mother's mood,
[30:36] Speaker 1: and then after that baby is born when it crashes out,
[30:40] Speaker 1: it's probably feels akin to like going off in SSRI
[30:45] Speaker 1: or something.
[30:45] Speaker 2: But quickly, Like I mean, whenever you go off of
[30:49] Speaker 2: medication like that, you're supposed to step it down, slowly,
[30:53] Speaker 2: keeper it off. This is like again nature just being
[30:56] Speaker 2: a total be ripping that stuff away from you, and
[31:01] Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you're just you just going cold
[31:04] Speaker 2: turkey off of this antidepress that you got used to
[31:06] Speaker 2: over nine months. Yeah, for sure, So, Chuck, one thing
[31:10] Speaker 2: that we've really been focusing on is the mom, and
[31:12] Speaker 2: the mom definitely suffers from post to part and depression,
[31:16] Speaker 2: but so can the baby as well.
[31:19] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Pregnant women with PPD are far more
[31:25] Speaker 1: likely to deliver a pre term baby or a baby
[31:28] Speaker 1: with low birth weight. So there can be a literal
[31:32] Speaker 1: like a physical outcome of postpartum depression for the baby.
[31:36] Speaker 1: And we talked earlier about black and Latino women experiencing
[31:40] Speaker 1: PPD at higher rates, so that also is going to
[31:43] Speaker 1: correlate over to birth outcomes because Black women are fifty
[31:45] Speaker 1: percent more likely to give pre term, to give birth
[31:49] Speaker 1: preterm than white women, and more than twice as likely
[31:51] Speaker 1: to have a baby with a low birth weight.
[31:53] Speaker 2: Right, This of course makes it even more pressure laden
[31:58] Speaker 2: for you to get it right right, so that also
[32:02] Speaker 2: can affect your ability to bond with your baby. And again,
[32:06] Speaker 2: as we saw with postpartum mood and anxiety disorder, that
[32:09] Speaker 2: can create a feedback cycle where you get more and
[32:11] Speaker 2: more anxious about it, more and more depressed about it,
[32:14] Speaker 2: and that that affects your bonding even further, which you
[32:18] Speaker 2: get more and more depressed and anxious about and that
[32:20] Speaker 2: affects your baby as well.
[32:22] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Should we take a break.
[32:25] Speaker 2: Yeah, there is one other thing I think before we
[32:27] Speaker 2: break to point out, and that is that if you
[32:29] Speaker 2: have postpartum depression, it doesn't mean that you don't want
[32:32] Speaker 2: to bond with your baby, like you are incapable of
[32:37] Speaker 2: bonding with your baby in the healthiest possible way. It's
[32:40] Speaker 2: not you, it's your biology and your environment.
[32:45] Speaker 1: Yeah. I thought you were about to say it's not you,
[32:47] Speaker 1: it's them. It's the baby.
[32:48] Speaker 2: It's the baby's fault.
[32:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just not that into you. All right. I'm
[32:54] Speaker 1: glad we could make a sort of a light joko
[32:56] Speaker 1: hooe that came across that way. And we will be
[32:58] Speaker 1: back right after this with treatment options because there's great
[33:01] Speaker 1: news on the horizon.
[33:23] Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck, So you said there's great news on the horizon,
[33:26] Speaker 2: and we're about to lay it on them all the
[33:28] Speaker 2: moms who are bawling and yelling and doing all the
[33:32] Speaker 2: things while they're listening to this episode. Treatment is quite viable.
[33:38] Speaker 1: That's right. Standard treatment is what you might think. It's therapy.
[33:45] Speaker 1: Perhaps antidepressant medication, certainly CBT cognitive behavioral therapy we've talked
[33:50] Speaker 1: about a lot. Yeah, that has been proven to be
[33:53] Speaker 1: pretty effective for PPD and postpartum anxiety and everything. Yeah,
[33:59] Speaker 1: and everything in general. But in the case of CBT,
[34:03] Speaker 1: you know, you're identifying these triggers that seem very automatic,
[34:06] Speaker 1: these thought patterns that you think you can't help, and
[34:10] Speaker 1: you know, coach you through that and how to develop
[34:12] Speaker 1: a healthier way of responding to those things when they
[34:15] Speaker 1: do happen.
[34:16] Speaker 2: Right, God bless doctor Aaron T. Beck, the creator of CBT.
[34:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, there's also medication.
[34:23] Speaker 2: We talked about alopregnanolone being discovered as like a main
[34:26] Speaker 2: culprit for postpartum depression. That led to some drugs being
[34:32] Speaker 2: expressly targeted to basically help that transition, so you don't
[34:37] Speaker 2: just go cold turkey, you kind of taper off of
[34:39] Speaker 2: that stuff.
[34:40] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[34:41] Speaker 2: And then there's also long been SSRIs prescribed like a
[34:46] Speaker 2: standard antidepressant, and that of course gives mom's pause, like
[34:50] Speaker 2: any kind of medication can give a lot of mom's
[34:52] Speaker 2: pause because they're like, I'm nursing, so what's that going
[34:56] Speaker 2: to do to the baby?
[34:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, they've studied this. The current sort of
[35:01] Speaker 1: wisdom on this is that they have been detected in
[35:05] Speaker 1: very very low levels, sometimes even undetectable levels, in breast milk.
[35:10] Speaker 1: There are rare reports of adverse effects on infants or
[35:14] Speaker 1: in infants, so that's where the science currently stands.
[35:20] Speaker 2: Yes, I also saw that peroxetine and sertraline which is
[35:23] Speaker 2: seroxat and zoloft okay. They seem to be the preferred
[35:29] Speaker 2: antidepressants for nursing mothers because they have shorter half life
[35:33] Speaker 2: than other SSRIs and the pass to breast milk and
[35:37] Speaker 2: smaller amounts than other Ssriyes, So if SSRIs in general
[35:41] Speaker 2: are okay, these two are super okay according to the
[35:45] Speaker 2: medical establishment, not me because I'm not a doctor.
[35:49] Speaker 1: That's right. And by the way, we did I think
[35:51] Speaker 1: two pretty good episodes on breastfeeding back in the day.
[35:56] Speaker 1: That was a two parter, right.
[35:57] Speaker 2: We did one on bottle feeding and one on breastfeeding.
[36:00] Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, so feeding your baby, and you know, I
[36:03] Speaker 1: recommend you you do those and we got you know,
[36:05] Speaker 1: it's always when it's two dudes podcasting about this stuff
[36:10] Speaker 1: about lady stuff, we were always a little nervous and
[36:14] Speaker 1: we always get really good feedback. From women that say, like,
[36:17] Speaker 1: you guys did a really good job, and it's good
[36:18] Speaker 1: that you guys are out there, sort of not feeling
[36:21] Speaker 1: like it has to come from a woman's perspective. So
[36:25] Speaker 1: I hope we're doing this all justice, you know.
[36:28] Speaker 2: God, I hope so too.
[36:30] Speaker 1: I think you're doing fine.
[36:31] Speaker 2: I think you're doing great.
[36:32] Speaker 1: But I'm just another CIS dude.
[36:35] Speaker 2: So if you want to target alo pregnant alone, there's
[36:39] Speaker 2: a drug called bre san alone yeah.
[36:43] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[36:44] Speaker 2: There's another one called Zura no loan yeah, and those
[36:49] Speaker 2: are the generic terms for them. The problem is, as
[36:52] Speaker 2: it stands right now, if you're paying out of pocket
[36:56] Speaker 2: with zero insurance, you're gonna pay thirty four grand for
[36:59] Speaker 2: one in the United States. I'm sure it's like ten
[37:01] Speaker 2: bucks in Canada, yeah, or fifteen grand for the other.
[37:07] Speaker 1: Shame shame, shame.
[37:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully if you have even passingly decent insurance in
[37:12] Speaker 2: the United States, like, you're not going to pay anything
[37:15] Speaker 2: even remotely like that. But yes, I think you should
[37:19] Speaker 2: say it again, chuck.
[37:20] Speaker 1: Yeah, still, even if enturance is covering it, shame, shame, shame, shame,
[37:24] Speaker 1: capital sham.
[37:26] Speaker 2: E Good for you, buddy, And now here's an ad
[37:29] Speaker 2: for saran alone.
[37:32] Speaker 1: Oh man, you're managing to squeeze in some jokes. I
[37:35] Speaker 1: like that.
[37:36] Speaker 2: I like you.
[37:39] Speaker 1: So can men get postpartum depression? The answer is yes,
[37:44] Speaker 1: that can happen. Apparently, between eight and ten percent of
[37:46] Speaker 1: new dads suffer from some kind of anxiety or depression
[37:50] Speaker 1: after the birth of a job, and it also may
[37:52] Speaker 1: be connected to hormones in some cases. It's usually later
[37:57] Speaker 1: than women might experience it, between three and six months later,
[38:01] Speaker 1: maybe up to a year later, but a lot of
[38:03] Speaker 1: the same you know issues, sleep issues, loss of appetite,
[38:06] Speaker 1: feeling overwhelmed, tired, sad, anxious, and also the same people
[38:12] Speaker 1: at risk if you're a younger dad, if you have
[38:15] Speaker 1: a history of depression, if you are struggling financially, or
[38:19] Speaker 1: if you're just having trouble in your marriage or relationship.
[38:22] Speaker 1: You know, you don't have to be married to have
[38:23] Speaker 1: a baby. We all know that, all right, All of
[38:26] Speaker 1: those same kind of risk factors.
[38:28] Speaker 2: Right, And there's also additional risk factors that dads customarily
[38:33] Speaker 2: have that new mom's necess don't necessarily and that's a
[38:36] Speaker 2: sense that's like the new mom is expected to be
[38:39] Speaker 2: a great mom and raise a great healthy well adjusted
[38:41] Speaker 2: baby right out of the box. The dad is expected
[38:44] Speaker 2: to really step it up and provide for his new family,
[38:49] Speaker 2: and that can often mean like, well, you're stuck here
[38:52] Speaker 2: in this job and you're now beholden to this employer
[38:56] Speaker 2: and like you may this that might not be the
[38:59] Speaker 2: great greatest feeling in the world for you right then,
[39:01] Speaker 2: And at the very least, it's additional pressure. So that
[39:04] Speaker 2: can also kick off postpartum depression in dad's which was
[39:09] Speaker 2: I think best expressed in the whamsong Everything she wants.
[39:13] Speaker 1: That's right, and I hope this is clear. But to
[39:16] Speaker 1: be clear, we're not obviously talking about the old days
[39:19] Speaker 1: where like the man's got the job and the woman
[39:21] Speaker 1: doesn't work and isn't expected to. But you know, in
[39:25] Speaker 1: two income families, a lot of times when a mom
[39:28] Speaker 1: has a baby, they at the very least hopefully have
[39:31] Speaker 1: a great maternity leave kind of situation. If not, sometimes
[39:37] Speaker 1: they have to leave like whatever job and just not
[39:39] Speaker 1: get paid for a while. So there may be more
[39:41] Speaker 1: pressure on the second income earner to you know, kind
[39:45] Speaker 1: of make up for that loss or at least keep
[39:46] Speaker 1: the ship afloat till mom can get back to work.
[39:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of the I guess quirks of the
[39:53] Speaker 2: United States economy. I guess is that especially if you
[39:58] Speaker 2: if you have a two income house and there there
[40:02] Speaker 2: is not great maternal leave or paternal leave, both parents
[40:06] Speaker 2: have to go to work very soon after the birth,
[40:09] Speaker 2: they will have to put their kid in childcare. The
[40:12] Speaker 2: United States, unlike some other countries, does not have free childcare.
[40:15] Speaker 2: It is a paid problem, private business industry. And some
[40:23] Speaker 2: couples figure out that the cost of daycare is more
[40:30] Speaker 2: than say the mom or the dad would actually bring home,
[40:34] Speaker 2: and so in that sense it makes sense to just
[40:37] Speaker 2: for the mom or the dad to stay home whoever
[40:39] Speaker 2: has the lower income that daycare would exceed. That's nuts
[40:45] Speaker 2: that that happens to anybody, and it happens to a
[40:47] Speaker 2: decent amount, at least anecdotally.
[40:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, day care is really really expensive, and
[40:53] Speaker 1: it's a it's a real shame because that can that
[40:57] Speaker 1: helps the family, that helps for outcomes for the in
[41:00] Speaker 1: their development. So my recommendation is to use your voice
[41:04] Speaker 1: at the voting booth and if there are candidates in
[41:06] Speaker 1: your local city or state or nationwide that believe in
[41:12] Speaker 1: the idea of free childcare, then speak with your vote.
[41:17] Speaker 1: That's all I'm going to say on that.
[41:19] Speaker 2: Okay, one other thing too, Chuck. It's not just environment.
[41:22] Speaker 2: Just like with postpartum depression in women, postpartum depression in
[41:26] Speaker 2: men also seems to have to do with hormones, because
[41:30] Speaker 2: men's hormones are the balance of hormones change during pregnancy
[41:35] Speaker 2: as well, which is pretty neat.
[41:37] Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, your testosterone is going to probably drop
[41:41] Speaker 1: during the pregnancy and continues to get lower after the
[41:46] Speaker 1: birth happens. And people think, you know, researchers think that
[41:50] Speaker 1: that's basically to keep tooktook at bay and to reduce
[41:54] Speaker 1: aggressive tendencies while you know, father infant bonding is happening, Like,
[42:00] Speaker 1: chill out, dad, you need to be gentler right now.
[42:03] Speaker 1: So we're gonna lower your.
[42:04] Speaker 2: Tea, right and also stick around and help raise the
[42:08] Speaker 2: kid rather than go look for your next conquest.
[42:11] Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I wonder if I should say this on
[42:13] Speaker 1: the air.
[42:14] Speaker 2: Well, we can edit it out.
[42:16] Speaker 1: All right, We'll see. One of the funny things that
[42:18] Speaker 1: Emily has done lately is you know, you know, all
[42:24] Speaker 1: the in a stupid man of sphere world, like you know,
[42:28] Speaker 1: low tea beta male. Soy, that's another one. Like you're soy,
[42:33] Speaker 1: like because you eat soy instead of meat like a
[42:35] Speaker 1: man does. She will anytime I'm like, I don't know,
[42:40] Speaker 1: just being wishy washy about something, or what if she
[42:42] Speaker 1: feels like she just wants to kind of pokepun at me,
[42:43] Speaker 1: she she'll call me like a beta cook or ask
[42:47] Speaker 1: me if I have low tea, or like hey, soy,
[42:49] Speaker 1: come over here and help me with this thing. Oh
[42:51] Speaker 1: my gosh, it's very I mean, it always just brings
[42:54] Speaker 1: the house down between the two of us because it's
[42:56] Speaker 1: just such a dumb thing. Anyway, I like that she's
[42:59] Speaker 1: taken something from the manisphere and kind of twisted it
[43:01] Speaker 1: to use it in our own marriage as a comedy.
[43:04] Speaker 2: I would love to be sitting on the couch someday
[43:06] Speaker 2: and heard do that to you, because yes, I would
[43:08] Speaker 2: so funny.
[43:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, I wait for Ruby to be like, what's a
[43:11] Speaker 1: beta cup?
[43:12] Speaker 2: Right? Let's see? Oh yeah. Postpartum depression is also treatable
[43:19] Speaker 2: and dad, so if you think you have it, to
[43:21] Speaker 2: kelp because it's very treatable too.
[43:23] Speaker 1: That's right.
[43:25] Speaker 2: Uh, you got anything else?
[43:27] Speaker 1: I got nothing else? Man. I always feel like we're
[43:28] Speaker 1: on ice skates with these episodes.
[43:30] Speaker 2: So I didn't feel like that about this one.
[43:32] Speaker 1: I always get a little nervous in how I speak
[43:34] Speaker 1: about this stuff. So I hope you did Okay, you
[43:36] Speaker 1: did great? Man, you did great?
[43:38] Speaker 2: Well, then it sounds like we both did great.
[43:41] Speaker 1: But I want moms to write in and say you
[43:42] Speaker 1: did great. I don't care what I think about you
[43:44] Speaker 1: and what you think about me anymore. We know we
[43:46] Speaker 1: love each other.
[43:47] Speaker 2: All right, fair enough? Okay, Yeah, if you're a new
[43:51] Speaker 2: mom or an old mom or even never had kids,
[43:54] Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. We would love to hear from you
[43:57] Speaker 2: about this episode.
[43:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, and not just saying we're great, Like if we
[44:01] Speaker 1: fell short, let us know and we'll try and do
[44:02] Speaker 1: better and correct it.
[44:04] Speaker 2: Well. Put man, I'm glad you said that too, because yeah,
[44:07] Speaker 2: we sounded like a couple of I know, like please
[44:09] Speaker 2: make us feel better, right, a couple of cucks.
[44:12] Speaker 1: Beta cucks.
[44:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, since Chuck just laughed about beta cucks again, it's
[44:17] Speaker 2: so funny. That means it's time for listener mail.
[44:24] Speaker 1: Soy is the one that really gets me.
[44:25] Speaker 2: Well, you know it's crazy as soy actually does raise
[44:28] Speaker 2: your estrogen levels and can give men many boobs.
[44:32] Speaker 1: Oh well, great, give it to me. I love it
[44:36] Speaker 1: all right. This is from Adam and Michigan. Hey, guys,
[44:38] Speaker 1: I'm a little more than disappointed that in the Three
[44:40] Speaker 1: Mile Island episode you fail to mention professional wrestler Adam Baum.
[44:46] Speaker 1: He was a popular wrestler in the nineteen eighties and
[44:48] Speaker 1: the WWF. He was billed as being from three Mile
[44:51] Speaker 1: Island and was in imposing six six two ninety well.
[44:55] Speaker 1: He had yellow con yellow contact lenses and a spinish
[45:00] Speaker 1: move was called the Adam Smasher. This is so great.
[45:03] Speaker 1: He was a rather imposing figure with a very creepy
[45:05] Speaker 1: theme song, and he made quite an impact. His real
[45:07] Speaker 1: name is Brian Clark. He's still alive and looks almost
[45:10] Speaker 1: like he did in the nineteen eighties. Adam from Michigan.
[45:13] Speaker 2: Nice. I had never heard of him, so thank you
[45:16] Speaker 2: for letting us know. Adam.
[45:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fun.
[45:18] Speaker 2: You hadn't heard of him?
[45:20] Speaker 1: No, I mean I didn't keep up with wrestling much.
[45:23] Speaker 2: No, I didn't either, But it sounds like we were
[45:26] Speaker 2: missing out on a lot.
[45:27] Speaker 1: But you know, we're just soy love and Beta Cux.
[45:29] Speaker 1: So what do we know.
[45:32] Speaker 2: If you want to be like Adam and let us know? Wait,
[45:34] Speaker 2: is this from Adam Bomb himself.
[45:37] Speaker 1: No, this is a d A.
[45:38] Speaker 2: M oh okay. Well, there was an Adam Bomb who
[45:42] Speaker 2: was a DJ at album maybe eight. For a while,
[45:45] Speaker 2: he had like the Soul something show.
[45:48] Speaker 1: Oh wow, I bet I listened to it.
[45:49] Speaker 2: It was really good. Well, anyway, thanks a lot Adam
[45:52] Speaker 2: from Michigan for letting us know about Adam Bomb. We
[45:56] Speaker 2: love that And if you want to get in touch
[45:58] Speaker 2: with us like Adam did, you can send us an
[46:00] Speaker 2: email to send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio
[46:04] Speaker 2: dot com.
[46:08] Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
[46:11] Speaker 1: more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
[46:15] Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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