# Powell Investigation, Uvalde School Shooting & Lindsey Halligan

An episode of [Bloomberg Law](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/277975394), 13 Jan 2026, 34 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/7c892d84-801f-4c0b-b0e9-ae2b0012ff5f/f600a09a-053c-47c7-abe4-b3d1000104bf/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=91224201-26a6-429d-ac3c-ae2b0012ff6d

Bloomberg Intelligence senior litigation analyst Elliott Stein discusses the criminal investigation into Fed Chair Jerome Powell. Then trial attorney David Ring, a partner at Taylor & Ring, discusses the trial of a former Texas police officer accused in the Uvalde school shooting. And constitutional law professor Harold Krent of the Chicago-Kent College of Law, talks about a judge ordering Lindsey Halligan to explain why she's still claiming to the US Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia. June Grasso hosts. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseol from Bloomberg Radio.
[0:08] Speaker 2: On Friday, the Department of Justice served the Federal Reserve
[0:11] Speaker 2: with grand jury subpoenas threatening a criminal indictment related to
[0:15] Speaker 2: my testimony before the Senate Banking Committee last June.
[0:19] Speaker 3: In an unusual, forceful written in video statement released Sunday evening,
[0:24] Speaker 3: Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell announced an unprecedented move by
[0:29] Speaker 3: the Trump administration the threat of a criminal indictment over
[0:34] Speaker 3: Powell's congressional testimony in June on ongoing renovations of the
[0:39] Speaker 3: Fed's headquarters. But Powell said the move should be seen
[0:43] Speaker 3: in the broader context of the administration's threats and ongoing pressure.
[0:49] Speaker 2: The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the
[0:51] Speaker 2: Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment
[0:56] Speaker 2: of what will serve the public, rather than following the
[0:58] Speaker 2: preferences of the present. This is about whether the Fed
[1:02] Speaker 2: will be able to continue to set interest rates based
[1:05] Speaker 2: on evidence and economic conditions, or whether instead monetary policy
[1:09] Speaker 2: will be directed by political pressure or intimidation.
[1:12] Speaker 3: There was rare pushback from the Republicans over the criminal investigation.
[1:17] Speaker 3: Senator Tom Tillis vowed to oppose any Trump nominees to
[1:21] Speaker 3: the FED until the matter of the grand jury investigation
[1:24] Speaker 3: into Powell is resolved, and other Republican senators also offered
[1:29] Speaker 3: pushback on the investigation. Joining me is Elliott Stein Bloomberg
[1:34] Speaker 3: Intelligence senior litigation analyst Elliott So this investigation is connected
[1:40] Speaker 3: to his congressional testimony, tell us more about it.
[1:44] Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. The FED has been undergoing renovations of
[1:48] Speaker 4: its building for several years now, and Chairman Powell testified
[1:52] Speaker 4: to Congress in June about those renovations because the Trump
[1:56] Speaker 4: administration had been lobbying criticisms at at the chair and
[2:01] Speaker 4: I think Republicans in Congress picked up on that as well.
[2:04] Speaker 4: Although you know, the larger context, of course, is that
[2:07] Speaker 4: the Trump administration and Trump himself have been very dissatisfied
[2:10] Speaker 4: with Chairman Powell and his policy on interest rates. So
[2:14] Speaker 4: that's sort of a broader context, which Chairman Powell alluded
[2:17] Speaker 4: to in his video response last night. But yeah, the
[2:20] Speaker 4: allegations that the subpoenas are based on are that Derman
[2:25] Speaker 4: Powell lied to Congress in his testimony in June concerning
[2:30] Speaker 4: the renovations, and the alleged cost overruns of those renovations.
[2:34] Speaker 3: So it's about the renovations. Do we know exactly what
[2:37] Speaker 3: they're claiming Powell lied about.
[2:40] Speaker 4: Well, it relates to certain aspects of the renovation that
[2:47] Speaker 4: have to do with like VIP dining rooms and the
[2:51] Speaker 4: special elevators, and the type of marble that's being used,
[2:55] Speaker 4: and the discrepancies between what are in the documents that
[3:00] Speaker 4: were submitted to the relevant agencies several years ago versus
[3:05] Speaker 4: what Powell testified about in June. And so, you know,
[3:09] Speaker 4: more specifically, the accusations are that these details, you know,
[3:15] Speaker 4: concerning the marble and the VIP dining room, et cetera,
[3:18] Speaker 4: are you know, extravagant and too expensive. And even though
[3:23] Speaker 4: those details were in the planning documents, when Powell was
[3:26] Speaker 4: asked about them in his testimony, he seemed to suggest
[3:29] Speaker 4: that those weren't exactly the types of material that was
[3:33] Speaker 4: going to be used or the type of specifications that
[3:36] Speaker 4: were going to be included in the project. So it's
[3:38] Speaker 4: sort of those discrepancies that the administration was criticizing, and
[3:44] Speaker 4: following his testimony to Congress in June, a congresswoman from
[3:49] Speaker 4: Florida referred the matter to the Justice Department, you know,
[3:53] Speaker 4: sort of along the lines of what the Trump administration
[3:56] Speaker 4: had been criticizing.
[3:58] Speaker 3: I mean, if everyone who had describedancies in their testimony
[4:01] Speaker 3: before Congress was prosecuted, the Justice Department wouldn't have time
[4:07] Speaker 3: for much else. These cases are not easy to prove.
[4:10] Speaker 3: Where's the materiality and where's the intent?
[4:14] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, in general, it's hard to prove criminal
[4:18] Speaker 4: intent on a matter like this. It seems very unlikely
[4:21] Speaker 4: that this is the type of thing that the chairman
[4:24] Speaker 4: of the Federal Reserve would intentionally be lying about to Congress.
[4:28] Speaker 4: It seems like there's reasonable explanations for the discrepancies, including
[4:33] Speaker 4: what Powell has explained and what the Federal Reserve itself
[4:36] Speaker 4: posted on its website in a FAQ after his testimony,
[4:40] Speaker 4: and that is that the Federal Reserve is allowed to
[4:44] Speaker 4: make modest modifications to what was in the planning documents.
[4:49] Speaker 4: And so that's really what's happening here. And so there
[4:52] Speaker 4: really isn't, you know, any material discrepancy between what Powell
[4:56] Speaker 4: said and his testimony and what's in the planning documents.
[4:59] Speaker 4: Certainly nothing that would rise to a criminal offense. And
[5:02] Speaker 4: I think that's, you know, in part why you're seeing
[5:05] Speaker 4: even Republican senators and congressman pushing back on the news
[5:10] Speaker 4: of the subpoena, saying, you know, this is too much,
[5:13] Speaker 4: and you know we value an independent FED and we
[5:15] Speaker 4: want to see this issue resolved quickly. And Senator Tom
[5:19] Speaker 4: Tillis in particular noted, and he's on the Senate Banking Committee,
[5:23] Speaker 4: who will oversee the nominations and confirmations of whoever Trump
[5:27] Speaker 4: names to replace Stephen Myron with the anticipation of that
[5:31] Speaker 4: person becoming the Chair of the FED when Chairman Powell's
[5:34] Speaker 4: term ends in May. We're seeing Senator Tillis saying, look,
[5:38] Speaker 4: I'm going to be reluctant to push forward any nomination,
[5:40] Speaker 4: certainly not going to confirm anyone until this investigation is resolved.
[5:46] Speaker 3: With Tillis's and some other Republican senator's opposition, this could
[5:52] Speaker 3: backfire on Trump. It could also backfire because it could
[5:57] Speaker 3: give Powell motivation to stay on as if we had
[6:00] Speaker 3: governor after his term as chair expires in May.
[6:05] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[6:05] Speaker 4: No, I think that's exactly read. I think there's a
[6:06] Speaker 4: number of unintended consequences that could backfire in the Trump administration.
[6:10] Speaker 1: Here.
[6:10] Speaker 4: You named a couple of them. One is the nomination
[6:13] Speaker 4: process could be stalled. Another is, like you said, it
[6:16] Speaker 4: could motivate Powell to stay on as a governor even
[6:19] Speaker 4: after his term as chair ends. There's been a question
[6:21] Speaker 4: about what he intends to do.
[6:23] Speaker 1: You know.
[6:24] Speaker 4: Traditionally chairs, you know, resigned from the board after their
[6:27] Speaker 4: term as chair ends and they don't stay on as governor.
[6:30] Speaker 4: But you know, in an effort to maintain FED independence,
[6:32] Speaker 4: this may motivate him to stay on. And then don't
[6:35] Speaker 4: forget next week on January twenty, first, we have argument
[6:39] Speaker 4: in the Supreme Court in at LIASA. Cookcase. You know,
[6:41] Speaker 4: the Supreme Court is not completely isolated from you know,
[6:45] Speaker 4: news headlines, and they may see this as yet another
[6:50] Speaker 4: effort to get rid of FED independence. And we've already
[6:53] Speaker 4: seen comments from Justice Kavanaugh recently in the FTC Slaughter
[6:57] Speaker 4: case suggesting that he was very concerned about FED independence.
[7:01] Speaker 4: So to the extent the Supreme Court is already leaning
[7:04] Speaker 4: towards the ruling in Lisa Cook's favor that would support
[7:08] Speaker 4: FED independence and make it harder for the President to
[7:11] Speaker 4: get rid of FED governors. This news, this subpoena may
[7:16] Speaker 4: motivate the Supreme Court to write an opinion that actually
[7:20] Speaker 4: makes it harder for the president to fire a Federal
[7:23] Speaker 4: Reserve Board governor without you know, real cause.
[7:27] Speaker 3: Has President Trump been attacking the independence of the FED
[7:32] Speaker 3: since the beginning of his term? Is it something new?
[7:37] Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure this has been going on since his
[7:39] Speaker 4: term started, maybe even before, where he's been criticizing Tarmn Powell.
[7:42] Speaker 4: But I mean the broader context is, you know that
[7:44] Speaker 4: one of the hallmarks of this administration has been, you know,
[7:48] Speaker 4: this unitary executive theory, where the president aims to establish
[7:53] Speaker 4: and maintain complete control over the executive brand. And you know,
[7:57] Speaker 4: we see that in obviously many many respects, but in
[8:01] Speaker 4: particular we've seen it with the firing of commissioners of
[8:04] Speaker 4: independent agencies like the FTC, which I mentioned earlier, and
[8:08] Speaker 4: the President has tried to extend that to the Federal Reserve.
[8:11] Speaker 4: But the Supreme Court, you know, a couple times now,
[8:14] Speaker 4: in particular in a ruling last May and then in
[8:17] Speaker 4: the argument in the Slaughter case last month, has indicated
[8:21] Speaker 4: that the FED is a little bit different. It's a
[8:24] Speaker 4: plasi private entity. It's not like other federal agencies. And
[8:28] Speaker 4: as a result, this theory of the unitary executive advance
[8:31] Speaker 4: may only go so far.
[8:33] Speaker 3: What also doesn't make much sense to me is if
[8:37] Speaker 3: they start this investigation now and take it to a
[8:40] Speaker 3: grand jury, and let's say a grand jury does return
[8:42] Speaker 3: with it some kind of indictment. I mean, this would
[8:45] Speaker 3: take years to prosecute and go through the appellate courts.
[8:49] Speaker 3: Trump might be out of office before the case is over.
[8:52] Speaker 4: That's exactly right. I mean I think the trial itself,
[8:55] Speaker 4: you know, could move relatively quickly. Criminal cases move relatively quickly.
[9:00] Speaker 4: But yeah, if there is an indictment, this is going
[9:03] Speaker 4: to drag on past, certainly past May, which is when
[9:08] Speaker 4: terror Powell's term as chairman ends. And so you know,
[9:11] Speaker 4: to the extent Tom Tillis is serious about stalling the
[9:15] Speaker 4: nomination and confirmation process of anybody who is named to
[9:19] Speaker 4: replace Tairman Powell's chair you know, we could be in limbo.
[9:24] Speaker 3: Whenever I hear about perjury cases, I always think about
[9:27] Speaker 3: the Barry Bonds case, which had a lot of unique circumstances,
[9:31] Speaker 3: but still it took seven years and his conviction was
[9:35] Speaker 3: eventually reversed.
[9:37] Speaker 4: You know, I always tell clients don't take the under
[9:40] Speaker 4: and if you're betting in terms of how long a
[9:43] Speaker 4: litigation takes.
[9:44] Speaker 3: It almost always takes longer than you think. Thanks so
[9:47] Speaker 3: much for joining me, Elliott. That's Bloomberg Intelligence Senior litigation analyst,
[9:52] Speaker 3: Elliott Stein. I'm June Grass. When you're listening to Bloomberg,
[9:57] Speaker 3: a jury has been listening to emotion testimony in the
[10:01] Speaker 3: trial of a former Uvalde school's police officer accused of
[10:06] Speaker 3: endangering dozens of students during the May twenty fourth, twenty
[10:10] Speaker 3: twenty two attack at rob Elementary School.
[10:14] Speaker 5: I yelled to the kids to get in the classrooms.
[10:19] Speaker 2: The second grade teachers had opened their doors.
[10:22] Speaker 1: To let us in.
[10:24] Speaker 2: I went to the first classroom and I stood outside
[10:27] Speaker 2: the door to make sure everybody had gone off the
[10:32] Speaker 2: playgrom It.
[10:33] Speaker 3: Was one of the worst school shootings in US history,
[10:37] Speaker 3: leaving nineteen students and two teachers dead. Nearly four hundred federal, state,
[10:43] Speaker 3: and local officers arrived at the school, but seventy minutes
[10:47] Speaker 3: passed before a tactical team finally breached the room and
[10:51] Speaker 3: killed the shooter. I kept asking the operator, where are
[10:57] Speaker 3: the cops?
[10:57] Speaker 4: Where are the cops?
[10:59] Speaker 3: The defendant and Adrian Gonzalez was among the first officers
[11:03] Speaker 3: to arrive on the scene, but prosecutors argue that he
[11:06] Speaker 3: failed to stop or delay the gunman.
[11:09] Speaker 6: He gets on the radio and says shots are fire.
[11:14] Speaker 6: He's wearing black, he's in the parking part. He knows
[11:18] Speaker 6: where he is. But Adrian Gonzalez remains.
[11:24] Speaker 3: But the defense says Gonzalez is being scapegoated, arguing that
[11:28] Speaker 3: he was one of the first officers to enter the
[11:31] Speaker 3: school and that he evacuated children as police arrived.
[11:35] Speaker 1: The monster who hurt those children, he's dead.
[11:41] Speaker 3: My guest is trial attorney David Ring, a partner at
[11:44] Speaker 3: Taylor and Ring. Dave tell us about the charges in
[11:47] Speaker 3: the case.
[11:48] Speaker 1: The defendant is a former police officer for the Uvaldi
[11:52] Speaker 1: School District and he was one of the very first
[11:55] Speaker 1: responders to this horrific scene of this school shooting. And
[12:00] Speaker 1: he's being criminally charged with twenty nine counts felony counts
[12:06] Speaker 1: of abandoning or endangering a child. And what is that about.
[12:11] Speaker 1: The prosecution is basically claiming that officer Gonzalez failed to
[12:18] Speaker 1: act when he came on the scene. He failed to
[12:21] Speaker 1: do what he was trained to do. And the twenty
[12:23] Speaker 1: nine counts are for these children that were killed or
[12:27] Speaker 1: harmed in this horrific shooting.
[12:30] Speaker 3: There were nearly four hundred officers from various agencies involved
[12:35] Speaker 3: in some degree to the police response, and they waited
[12:38] Speaker 3: more than seventy minutes before a tactical team finally reached
[12:42] Speaker 3: the room and killed the shooter. Why is Gonzalez being
[12:47] Speaker 3: charged and not any of the hundreds of others.
[12:50] Speaker 1: The prosecution's theory as to why Officer Gonzales is being
[12:55] Speaker 1: charged is because he was one of the first, if
[12:59] Speaker 1: not the first, first officer on the scene, and the
[13:02] Speaker 1: prosecution claims that Gonzalez had the opportunity to engage the
[13:09] Speaker 1: gunman before he really got to fire off too many shots,
[13:13] Speaker 1: and he failed to do so. They can't make that
[13:16] Speaker 1: argument about many of the other officers because they obviously
[13:19] Speaker 1: arrived later on the scene. The other important part of
[13:23] Speaker 1: this prosecution is that the prosecution can argue that Officer
[13:28] Speaker 1: Gonzalez had received active shooter training as part of his
[13:34] Speaker 1: training as a police officer, and that he knew what
[13:37] Speaker 1: he was supposed to do and yet disregarded that training and,
[13:41] Speaker 1: according to the prosecution, did really nothing. That's why he's
[13:45] Speaker 1: being charged. The other person, whose case has not started
[13:49] Speaker 1: yet is the commanding officer, and it's similar counts and
[13:52] Speaker 1: dangering children. But basically, the theory against him is that
[13:56] Speaker 1: he failed to put in action all the things he
[13:59] Speaker 1: was supposed to do to control this scene.
[14:02] Speaker 3: So what is Gonzalez's basic defense so far?
[14:06] Speaker 1: Gonzalez's defense is that he came onto the scene and
[14:11] Speaker 1: he never saw the shooter. He did not know where
[14:14] Speaker 1: the shooter was, never saw the shooter. You couldn't engage
[14:17] Speaker 1: the shooter if you didn't know where he was. He
[14:20] Speaker 1: also says he actually did things. He helped kids evacuate
[14:24] Speaker 1: from the school from a different part of the building,
[14:27] Speaker 1: and then at some point, he says, when other officers arrived,
[14:31] Speaker 1: he was being fired upon, or at least there were
[14:34] Speaker 1: bullets flying from some location that would put his life
[14:37] Speaker 1: in danger if he tried to engage the shooter. So
[14:41] Speaker 1: he's got several defenses to these criminal charges that, if
[14:45] Speaker 1: believed by the jury, should exonerate him.
[14:47] Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just wondering how the jury weighs the effect
[14:51] Speaker 3: of them the officers waiting seventy minutes, how that sort
[14:55] Speaker 3: of weighs in here with his guilt.
[14:58] Speaker 1: It's really difficult. Like you said, there are four hundred
[15:01] Speaker 1: officers eventually at this scene, and really one of them
[15:05] Speaker 1: is being singled out for not doing his job. This
[15:08] Speaker 1: is a very very unique type of prosecution. You rarely
[15:13] Speaker 1: see this type of prosecution of a police officer, and
[15:16] Speaker 1: the reason it's unique. Most of the times when you
[15:19] Speaker 1: see a criminal case involving a police officer, it's because
[15:22] Speaker 1: they did something actively wrong. They used excessive force and
[15:27] Speaker 1: shot and killed someone, or they used excessive violence to
[15:31] Speaker 1: harm someone. They actually did something that was criminal. Here,
[15:37] Speaker 1: the argument is he did nothing. It's an omission, not
[15:42] Speaker 1: an act, and that is a very very difficult crime
[15:45] Speaker 1: to prove against a police officer. There have only been
[15:48] Speaker 1: a handful of these prosecutions accusing an officer of not
[15:52] Speaker 1: doing something, and none of them have been successful.
[15:56] Speaker 3: The evidence that the prosecution has been present photos of
[16:02] Speaker 3: the scene and the damage left behind that the judge
[16:05] Speaker 3: warned were gruesome and shocking. You have witness testimony from
[16:10] Speaker 3: former teachers who were sheltered in classrooms, parents of children
[16:14] Speaker 3: who lost their lives, forensic experts about weapons and ammunition.
[16:19] Speaker 3: So the prosecution is showing this nightmare scenario, this devastating shooting,
[16:26] Speaker 3: but so far it doesn't seem to be showing what
[16:29] Speaker 3: the defendant dealer didn't do.
[16:32] Speaker 1: Look, the prosecution is putting on a case that is
[16:35] Speaker 1: they're laying out this horrific, horrific scene, tragedy, horrible photos.
[16:41] Speaker 1: So when you hear what's what happened in the number
[16:44] Speaker 1: of rounds that were fired by this gunman and all
[16:47] Speaker 1: the things that he did, and testimony from the parents
[16:51] Speaker 1: and teachers who survived, it's horrific. But so far, not
[16:56] Speaker 1: a lot of evidence against Officer Gonzales. And there's been
[17:00] Speaker 1: a very very crucial ruling because one of the key
[17:03] Speaker 1: issues in this case is that a witness is going
[17:07] Speaker 1: to have to place Officer Gonzalez on the south side
[17:11] Speaker 1: of this school building early on, because that's where the
[17:15] Speaker 1: shooter entered from. And if there's no one, no witnesses
[17:18] Speaker 1: that can place him on the south side, then he's
[17:21] Speaker 1: going to successfully argue I never saw the shooter. Well
[17:24] Speaker 1: early in this trial, a teacher testified that she in
[17:29] Speaker 1: fact saw Gonzalez on the south side of the building
[17:33] Speaker 1: very very early on. The problem with that was that
[17:37] Speaker 1: that was the very first time she had ever told
[17:39] Speaker 1: anyone that she had told prosecutors years ago that she
[17:44] Speaker 1: never saw officer Gonzalez anywhere, and so when she testified
[17:49] Speaker 1: to that at trial, that made the defense bring a
[17:53] Speaker 1: mistrial motion because they basically got sandbagged by that testimony.
[17:57] Speaker 1: That was something the prosecution had to share with the
[18:01] Speaker 1: defense because it is such crucial testimony. And the first
[18:05] Speaker 1: time it ever came out was when she was on
[18:06] Speaker 1: the witness stand. And so what did the judge do.
[18:09] Speaker 1: He didn't grant a mistrial, but he struck this witness's
[18:14] Speaker 1: testimony in its entirety. And what does that mean. That
[18:18] Speaker 1: means like it never happened. And so she was one
[18:21] Speaker 1: of the very few witnesses that would place Officer Gonzalez
[18:24] Speaker 1: on the south side of the building. And now her
[18:26] Speaker 1: testimony has been stricken. It's a major blow for the prosecution.
[18:31] Speaker 3: The judge told the jury to disregard her testimony. That's
[18:36] Speaker 3: sort of like unringing the bell. How do they disregard it?
[18:41] Speaker 1: It's true, it is unringing the bell. But it happens
[18:44] Speaker 1: in every trial where a judge says, you know, someone
[18:47] Speaker 1: testified to something improperly or incorrectly, and I'm telling you
[18:50] Speaker 1: you are to disregard it. If the jurors follow the law.
[18:54] Speaker 1: When they're in deliberations, they are not allowed to discuss
[18:57] Speaker 1: that testimony at all. Juris follow the law, and so
[19:02] Speaker 1: they're going to be back in the jury room. They're
[19:03] Speaker 1: going to say there wasn't a single witness who placed
[19:06] Speaker 1: Officer in Gonzales on the south side of the building
[19:09] Speaker 1: where the shooter was. And if someone says, well, this
[19:12] Speaker 1: teacher did, they say, well, we can't consider that, so
[19:14] Speaker 1: therefore there's no evidence of that. So that's how it
[19:17] Speaker 1: plays out. And the other way it plays out is
[19:20] Speaker 1: if he is convicted and it goes to the court
[19:22] Speaker 1: of appeal, that will be a very significant issue.
[19:25] Speaker 3: The way for us, the benefits and disadvantages of having
[19:30] Speaker 3: him testify.
[19:32] Speaker 1: It's going to be very interesting if Officer Gonzalez testifies.
[19:36] Speaker 1: You know, the prose of him testifying is that he
[19:39] Speaker 1: takes the witness stand and he can explain his actions
[19:43] Speaker 1: to the jury. He can tell them I arrived on
[19:46] Speaker 1: the scene, and I did this, and I did that,
[19:48] Speaker 1: and I helped kids evacuate, and I didn't know where
[19:51] Speaker 1: the shooter was. And I was never on the south side,
[19:54] Speaker 1: and I never saw the shooter. I didn't know where
[19:56] Speaker 1: he was. I didn't know where the bullets were coming from.
[19:59] Speaker 1: And that's powerful testimony coming from him. And if he's
[20:02] Speaker 1: a likable person, a sympathetic person, he gets to talk
[20:06] Speaker 1: about his career in law enforcement, it makes it very
[20:09] Speaker 1: difficult for a jury to convict him and put all
[20:12] Speaker 1: the blame on him. So that's the pro for him
[20:16] Speaker 1: taking the stand and testifying. I mean, obviously the downside
[20:21] Speaker 1: is any time a criminal defendant takes the stand, they're
[20:24] Speaker 1: open to cross examination and cross examination that the prosecution
[20:29] Speaker 1: can really go after him on his training and his
[20:32] Speaker 1: failure to follow his training and all the things we've
[20:35] Speaker 1: discussed about what their theories are.
[20:38] Speaker 3: Do you think the defense will try to present the
[20:42] Speaker 3: picture that we discussed about all these officers waiting more
[20:46] Speaker 3: than seventy minutes before they entered the building and what
[20:50] Speaker 3: effect that had.
[20:52] Speaker 1: I mean, that's obviously been part of the trial. But
[20:55] Speaker 1: I also think that the defense is really going to
[20:58] Speaker 1: hone in on because it is undisputed that officer Gonzalez
[21:03] Speaker 1: was one of the first to the scene. So I
[21:06] Speaker 1: think the defense will really focus in on one, he
[21:10] Speaker 1: did not know where the shooter was. Two, he was
[21:14] Speaker 1: not just sitting around doing nothing. He was helping children
[21:18] Speaker 1: escape the school from a different location, and three bullets
[21:22] Speaker 1: were flying. He didn't know where they were coming from.
[21:25] Speaker 1: And if he tried to enter the school and tried
[21:28] Speaker 1: to engage the shooter, not knowing where he was all
[21:31] Speaker 1: by himself, he probably would have ended up killed.
[21:35] Speaker 3: Is this the kind of case that usually is not
[21:37] Speaker 3: prosecuted criminally but where we see civil actions for damages?
[21:43] Speaker 1: Very very rare you see this type of case prosecuted
[21:47] Speaker 1: criminally because, as we discuss, it's an O mission to act,
[21:51] Speaker 1: and so you very very rarely see that on the
[21:54] Speaker 1: civil side of things. I mean, not to get too
[21:57] Speaker 1: deep into the weeds. The problem with that is that
[22:01] Speaker 1: the law doesn't allow individuals to sue police officers of
[22:08] Speaker 1: law enforcement for not doing a perfect job. Otherwise, every
[22:13] Speaker 1: time there was a crime and the crime wasn't solved
[22:17] Speaker 1: or the investigation wasn't done perfectly, there'd be a lawsuit
[22:20] Speaker 1: against a police officer like, hey, you should have done this,
[22:23] Speaker 1: you should have done that, And we a society don't
[22:25] Speaker 1: want that. That's not efficient or effective, and so it'd
[22:29] Speaker 1: be very difficult for a civil case to survive against
[22:32] Speaker 1: officer Gonzalez.
[22:34] Speaker 3: Thanks so much for joining me. Dave that's trial attorney
[22:36] Speaker 3: David Ring of Tailor and Ring this is Bloomberg. A
[22:41] Speaker 3: Trump appointed judge has ordered Lindsay Halligan to explain why
[22:46] Speaker 3: she's continuing to call herself the US attorney for the
[22:50] Speaker 3: Eastern District of Virginia, even though another judge found in
[22:54] Speaker 3: November that she'd been illegally appointed to the position. That
[22:58] Speaker 3: November finding led to the dismissal of cases against former
[23:02] Speaker 3: FBI Director James Comy and New York Attorney General Letitia James.
[23:07] Speaker 3: Judge David Novak's order on Tuesday gave Halligan seven days
[23:12] Speaker 3: to file a pleading that justifies why the court shouldn't
[23:16] Speaker 3: strike her title from indictments and explain why her identification
[23:21] Speaker 3: does not constitute a false or misleading statement. The order
[23:25] Speaker 3: came in the case of a man indicted last month
[23:28] Speaker 3: on charges of carjacking and attempted bank robbery. The judge
[23:33] Speaker 3: noted that his order was on his own initiative, rather
[23:37] Speaker 3: than in response to any motion by litigants in the case,
[23:40] Speaker 3: and on a side note, the second highest ranking federal
[23:44] Speaker 3: prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia was fired today
[23:49] Speaker 3: after he reportedly refused to help lead the department's prosecution
[23:54] Speaker 3: of Komy. My guest is constitutional law expert Harold Krant,
[23:59] Speaker 3: a professor at the SHO Chicago Kent College of Law.
[24:02] Speaker 5: Yes, so, Mintya Halligan has been deemed to be unlawfully
[24:06] Speaker 5: appointed because the President hasn't followed Congress's diagram or activity
[24:11] Speaker 5: in the Appointments Act, and so the President decided not
[24:14] Speaker 5: to seek Senate confirmation for a number of posts. There
[24:18] Speaker 5: have been five interim US attorneys who's been appointed by
[24:22] Speaker 5: President Trump who's been found disqualified simply because the President
[24:26] Speaker 5: has decided not to follow the statute and not to
[24:28] Speaker 5: present the name of the candidate to the Senate for ratification. Now,
[24:33] Speaker 5: in this case, after the judge has found her to
[24:36] Speaker 5: be improperly appointed, she just decided to stay on pending appeal.
[24:41] Speaker 5: So she made her own decision that it was okay
[24:44] Speaker 5: for her to continue.
[24:45] Speaker 3: Acting even though there was an orders.
[24:47] Speaker 5: For founding that she had been disqualified. So another judge
[24:50] Speaker 5: is contesting that, and basically they were saying, is you
[24:53] Speaker 5: should have stepped away while the appeal was pending and
[24:56] Speaker 5: to see if you could be reinstated or not.
[25:00] Speaker 3: How unusual is it for a judge to issue an
[25:03] Speaker 3: order like this on his or her own In other words,
[25:07] Speaker 3: there was no defendant here asking him to issue this order.
[25:10] Speaker 5: Well, what's interesting is that she has been seeking activities
[25:14] Speaker 5: that can only be done by a US attorney, And
[25:17] Speaker 5: so what the judge is saying, which is similar to
[25:20] Speaker 5: what a judge that in New York in a different case.
[25:22] Speaker 5: I'm sure we'll turn to in Letitia James case, you know,
[25:25] Speaker 5: said is you have no authority to take this particular action,
[25:29] Speaker 5: whether it's a tax action, it's indictment, or something else,
[25:32] Speaker 5: because you're not the official US attorney, and therefore you
[25:35] Speaker 5: may be making a false statement and subject to either
[25:38] Speaker 5: a federal violation or to contempt a court because you
[25:41] Speaker 5: are basically lying to the court by affirming that you
[25:45] Speaker 5: have the authority to take the action that you did.
[25:48] Speaker 3: He also alluded to the possibility that she could be
[25:51] Speaker 3: disbarred from practicing in that jurisdiction.
[25:54] Speaker 5: Yeah, because if she's making false statements to the court,
[25:57] Speaker 5: that is a reason for disbarment, and the bar Association,
[26:01] Speaker 5: if it's refer to case, we'll have to take that
[26:03] Speaker 5: under its advisement.
[26:04] Speaker 3: The judge Novak ordered that Halligan sign her response, and
[26:09] Speaker 3: that sort of goes towards this growing trend of federal
[26:13] Speaker 3: judges doubting whether the Justice Departments in court statements can
[26:19] Speaker 3: be trusted. I mean, we had the judge in Chicago
[26:23] Speaker 3: in the case over the use of the National Guard
[26:26] Speaker 3: there accused the Trump administration of making false statements in court.
[26:31] Speaker 3: The judges just don't know that they can believe what said.
[26:35] Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, obviously judge also looked at tape information
[26:38] Speaker 5: at testimony basically found the testimony of the border patrol
[26:44] Speaker 5: to be simply not credible in light of all the
[26:46] Speaker 5: other evidences introduced. I'm afraid that's just said. The same
[26:49] Speaker 5: thing in the Minnesota shooting is that there's going to
[26:51] Speaker 5: be false statements that just are inconsistent with all the
[26:54] Speaker 5: video footage about what really happened in that case.
[26:58] Speaker 3: Turn to Letitia James for moment. What's happening there.
[27:01] Speaker 5: Well, the President simply is using the Justice Department to
[27:05] Speaker 5: try to fare it out wrongdoing against his political enemies.
[27:08] Speaker 5: This is the oldest sort of trick of a kind
[27:10] Speaker 5: of you know, autocratic ruler is using what he can
[27:14] Speaker 5: to sort of take revenge upon individuals who he perceived
[27:17] Speaker 5: has wronged him. Obviously, the Tisha James foiled that huge
[27:21] Speaker 5: civil lawsuit against him as Attorney General of New York,
[27:24] Speaker 5: and he first tried to get her on mortgage fraud
[27:27] Speaker 5: that was thrown out, and now he's continuing an investigation.
[27:31] Speaker 5: This investigation goes back to twenty eighteen and is inquiring
[27:36] Speaker 5: whether or not she improperly used campaign funds to stiphen
[27:40] Speaker 5: them off to her hairdresser, who evidently was helping her
[27:44] Speaker 5: in the campaign. You know, who knows what happened in
[27:46] Speaker 5: twenty eighteen, But for the Justice Department to get involved
[27:49] Speaker 5: in something almost eight years ago is just written all
[27:54] Speaker 5: over it.
[27:54] Speaker 1: Just vengeance.
[27:55] Speaker 5: They're just scouring the record to see how they can
[27:57] Speaker 5: make life miserable for Letitia James. And so that's what's
[28:01] Speaker 5: transpiring at the moment in her case.
[28:04] Speaker 3: And that's a prosecutor in Northern New York.
[28:07] Speaker 5: It's used to train John Starcne and in that case
[28:10] Speaker 5: he's an interim. In that case, the court found that
[28:13] Speaker 5: John Starcone, like Lindsay Halligan, like others, improperly stayed in
[28:17] Speaker 5: office passed the time allotted to him under the vacancies
[28:20] Speaker 5: Act and therefore is inappropriate and should not be involved
[28:26] Speaker 5: in any kind of power that is required of a
[28:30] Speaker 5: head prosecutor. In another case, she threw out his peanut
[28:34] Speaker 5: for tax information that he signs, saying you're not legitimate.
[28:37] Speaker 5: And therefore that is the fifth again fight between a
[28:43] Speaker 5: acting you as attorney and the courts simply on the
[28:46] Speaker 5: basis that they're not properly appointed to their jobs because
[28:50] Speaker 5: the presidents refused to go before the Senate for no
[28:53] Speaker 5: reason that I can understand.
[28:55] Speaker 3: So there are several cases you mentioned. Judge in California
[28:58] Speaker 3: ruled in October at the US Attorney there Bill as
[29:03] Speaker 3: Sale couldn't serve as the acting US Attorney in Los Angeles,
[29:07] Speaker 3: but allowed him to keep supervising the Federal Prosecutor's office,
[29:11] Speaker 3: but without the acting US Attorney title. So why do that?
[29:15] Speaker 3: Why not? You know, if you make a decision, enforce it.
[29:19] Speaker 1: Well.
[29:19] Speaker 5: I think the trick here is that there are certain
[29:22] Speaker 5: things by statute that only a US Attorney or someone
[29:26] Speaker 5: in that position can do, such as the tax returney
[29:29] Speaker 5: that we discussed earlier. Courts can fudge it if they
[29:31] Speaker 5: want to say, well, you can serve as a prosecutor
[29:34] Speaker 5: and you could actually help in the office. You just
[29:36] Speaker 5: can't take certain responsibilities that Congress has allocated only to
[29:41] Speaker 5: the top official. So that's sort of a compromise that
[29:44] Speaker 5: some courts have taken. You know, in each case there's
[29:47] Speaker 5: a little bit of confusion, there's little pandemonium chaos in
[29:50] Speaker 5: the offices. But again, all that has to be clarified
[29:53] Speaker 5: is the president can submit the name to the Senate
[29:55] Speaker 5: for ratification.
[29:56] Speaker 3: And in the case of the new Jersey US attorney
[30:00] Speaker 3: who Trump appointed his former personal attorney, Alina Habba, the
[30:04] Speaker 3: Third Circuit, they are ruled that that was not legal
[30:08] Speaker 3: and she resigned, But there's still no one in that position.
[30:12] Speaker 3: I mean, all these instances, doesn't this open up prosecutions
[30:18] Speaker 3: and you know, grand jury indictments to challenges by the defense.
[30:22] Speaker 3: I mean, the Trump administration is preferring to keep these
[30:26] Speaker 3: people in rather than to have solid prosecutions.
[30:31] Speaker 5: It seems to me, Yeah, it's undermining the rule of
[30:35] Speaker 5: the opposites. It's undermining potential prosecutions, and as far as
[30:39] Speaker 5: I can see, for no reason other than stubbliness, and
[30:42] Speaker 5: it's just not doing a favor to the criminal justice system.
[30:46] Speaker 3: And on the other side of the Ledger sort of
[30:49] Speaker 3: we have the Trump administration trying to get people out
[30:51] Speaker 3: of their positions, and so, you know, it was revealed
[30:55] Speaker 3: that subpoenas were issued to FED shared Jr. Own Powell.
[30:59] Speaker 3: And I'm one wondering, you know, how much of this
[31:02] Speaker 3: is because the Supreme Court has refused to draw a
[31:05] Speaker 3: line about Trump firing people, and even the presidential Immunity
[31:12] Speaker 3: decision gives him so much leeway that how much of
[31:15] Speaker 3: this can be blamed on Supreme Court.
[31:19] Speaker 5: I don't think entirely, because the Supreme Court twice at
[31:22] Speaker 5: least in dicta have said that the FED is different,
[31:24] Speaker 5: that they're going to sort of signaling that there's going
[31:26] Speaker 5: to be a carve out for the FED to keep
[31:29] Speaker 5: its independency. I think this is more sort of a
[31:32] Speaker 5: petty vindictiveness on the part of the administration because your
[31:35] Speaker 5: own pile hasn't count out to what the President wants
[31:38] Speaker 5: him to do, so he's going to use the power
[31:40] Speaker 5: of the office to sort of make life miserable for Powell.
[31:43] Speaker 5: And you know it's silly, is his term as chair
[31:46] Speaker 5: is up in within a matter of months. But nonetheless,
[31:48] Speaker 5: the President is you know, sort of continuing to hound
[31:51] Speaker 5: him through these subpoenas, and even some publican centers say,
[31:55] Speaker 5: why are you doing this? This is going to upset
[31:57] Speaker 5: the stability of our financial system.
[32:00] Speaker 3: The Justice Department under Trump, in many instances, has struggled
[32:04] Speaker 3: to get prosecutions off the ground, even at times having
[32:08] Speaker 3: grand jury say no. And there's that old saying that
[32:11] Speaker 3: we all know that a grand jury will and die
[32:13] Speaker 3: to ham Sandwich, but apparently not. I'm wondering about the
[32:17] Speaker 3: level the quality of prosecutors now at the Justice Department,
[32:23] Speaker 3: whether it's you know, the quality or they're just afraid
[32:26] Speaker 3: to do their to do what they have to do.
[32:29] Speaker 1: No.
[32:29] Speaker 5: Everybody who I think is witnessing what's happening to the
[32:34] Speaker 5: justice part, I think there's been a huge hit on
[32:36] Speaker 5: the quality and the talent and the attitude of people
[32:40] Speaker 5: who are still there. And so if you put those
[32:43] Speaker 5: factors together, you're not going to be as effective as
[32:46] Speaker 5: a prosecutor. And because of that, you know, we're going
[32:49] Speaker 5: to see sort of a hit to some of the
[32:52] Speaker 5: criminal prosecution efforts by the Justice Department all around the
[32:55] Speaker 5: country because again morale, lack of personnel, because of personal frictions,
[33:02] Speaker 5: and because of the loss of faith in the court system.
[33:05] Speaker 5: You put all that together, and you know this is
[33:07] Speaker 5: going to be a heyday for defense players.
[33:09] Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Hal. That's Professor Harold Krent of the
[33:12] Speaker 3: Chicago Kent College of Law. And that's it for this
[33:16] Speaker 3: edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always
[33:19] Speaker 3: get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcasts.
[33:22] Speaker 3: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at
[33:25] Speaker 3: www dot bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, and
[33:30] Speaker 3: remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight
[33:33] Speaker 3: at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and
[33:37] Speaker 3: you're listening to Bloomberg

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