# Can Trump Serve a Third Term & Wrongful Death Trial of Pitcher Tyler Skaggs

An episode of [Bloomberg Law](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/277975394), 29 Oct 2025, 31 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/7c892d84-801f-4c0b-b0e9-ae2b0012ff5f/ed70d328-ce51-4be1-9247-b3850025e351/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=91224201-26a6-429d-ac3c-ae2b0012ff6d

Constitutional law expert David Super, a professor at Georgetown Law, discusses President Trump’s hints at a third term. Healthcare attorney Harry Nelson, a partner at Leech Tishman Nelson Hardiman, discusses the trial over Los Angeles Angels pitcher Tyler Skaggs’ death. June Grasso hosts. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio.
[0:08] Speaker 2: President Donald Trump has once again suggested he'd like to
[0:12] Speaker 2: extend his stay at sixteen hundred Pennsylvania Avenue for a
[0:17] Speaker 2: third term.
[0:18] Speaker 3: I would love to do it. I have my best numbers.
[0:21] Speaker 4: Ever, it's very terrible. I have my best snubber.
[0:23] Speaker 2: Trump has frequently flirted with the idea of a third
[0:26] Speaker 2: term while saying he doesn't want to talk about it.
[0:29] Speaker 2: For example, in March, just a little over a month
[0:32] Speaker 2: into his second term, I want to talk about it.
[0:35] Speaker 3: I'm just telling you.
[0:36] Speaker 2: I have had more people say please run again. I said,
[0:40] Speaker 2: we have a long way to go before we even
[0:42] Speaker 2: think about that.
[0:44] Speaker 5: They do say there's a way you can do it.
[0:46] Speaker 4: But I don't know about that.
[0:47] Speaker 5: But I have not looked into it.
[0:49] Speaker 2: But this time. There are also those Trump twenty twenty
[0:52] Speaker 2: eight red baseball caps that sat on his desk during
[0:55] Speaker 2: a meeting with congressional leaders this month. There's the think
[0:59] Speaker 2: tank call called Third Term Project. And there is the
[1:03] Speaker 2: Justice Department lawyer who, during oral arguments at the Sixth
[1:06] Speaker 2: Circuit Court of Appeals referred to a new administration being
[1:10] Speaker 2: in place quote three years in the future or seven
[1:15] Speaker 2: years in the future. Joining me is constitutional law expert
[1:18] Speaker 2: David Super, a professor at Georgetown Law. So, David, I
[1:22] Speaker 2: reread the twenty second Amendment. It plainly states that no
[1:26] Speaker 2: one can be elected president more than twice. I mean,
[1:29] Speaker 2: how plain is it? How clear is it?
[1:32] Speaker 3: It could not be clearer and it could not be plainer.
[1:36] Speaker 3: It's short, it's sweet, it's to the point, and they
[1:40] Speaker 3: are not allowing anyone to run for a third term.
[1:44] Speaker 2: Now, there are different kinds of scenarios out there that
[1:48] Speaker 2: Trump allies have put forward. One of the arguments is
[1:52] Speaker 2: that the twenty second Amendment only explicitly bars a person
[1:55] Speaker 2: from being elected to more than two presidential terms, but
[1:59] Speaker 2: doesn't say anything about serving a third term. So the
[2:04] Speaker 2: theory is that Trump could run as vice president and
[2:08] Speaker 2: then have whatever lucky candidate for president it is resign
[2:12] Speaker 2: and then Trump takes the White House.
[2:15] Speaker 4: That doesn't work either, because of the twelfth Amendment, which
[2:18] Speaker 4: says that any candidate for vice president must be constitutionally
[2:23] Speaker 4: qualified to serve as president, which mister Trump isn't.
[2:28] Speaker 2: In fact, Trump himself sort of dismissed that he said
[2:32] Speaker 2: I'd be allowed to do that, but I think people
[2:35] Speaker 2: wouldn't like that. It's too cute. Also, didn't Vladimir Putin
[2:40] Speaker 2: sort of do something like that years ago where he
[2:43] Speaker 2: put a deputy in to serve in his place for
[2:46] Speaker 2: one term and then he took over.
[2:49] Speaker 4: It's rather disappointing that this country is taking its political
[2:53] Speaker 4: lessons from Russia these days. But yes, what Putin did
[2:57] Speaker 4: was stepped down from being president for one term and
[3:02] Speaker 4: let a trusted ally of his serve as a figurehead
[3:08] Speaker 4: president while Putin ran things as Prime minister, then came
[3:12] Speaker 4: back and became president again. A few problems with that.
[3:16] Speaker 4: One is it's too cute. Two is we don't have
[3:20] Speaker 4: prime ministerships here, so there's no obvious alternate role for
[3:25] Speaker 4: Trump to go into to serve it. Three, Russia's limit
[3:28] Speaker 4: is on consecutive terms. The twenty second Amendment is a
[3:32] Speaker 4: limit on total terms. And four, why are we taking
[3:35] Speaker 4: our political lessons from Russia?
[3:37] Speaker 2: And just explain to get rid of the twenty second Amendment?
[3:40] Speaker 2: What would it take?
[3:41] Speaker 4: Repealing the twenty second Amendment would take a two thirds
[3:44] Speaker 4: vote from both chambers of Congress and ratification by three
[3:50] Speaker 4: quarters of the states, which is thirty eight states, so
[3:54] Speaker 4: you would need ratification from states like Connecticut and Massachusetts.
[4:00] Speaker 4: Now I don't think those states are going to be
[4:01] Speaker 4: working very hard to get mister Trump a third term.
[4:04] Speaker 2: Another theory is that Trump could become the Speaker of
[4:08] Speaker 2: the House, which apparently posits that it's easy to be
[4:11] Speaker 2: elected Speaker of the House, and then if both the
[4:14] Speaker 2: president and vice president, who would have to be Trump
[4:18] Speaker 2: Ally's resign.
[4:20] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[4:20] Speaker 4: I keep sending in my resume to be Speaker of
[4:23] Speaker 4: the House and nothing ever happens. I'm not sure what
[4:25] Speaker 4: the problem is in theory that could be said to
[4:31] Speaker 4: be valid. The Speaker of the House is elected, and
[4:36] Speaker 4: if the purpose of electing mister Trump speaker is to
[4:39] Speaker 4: make him president, I think there's an argument that that
[4:42] Speaker 4: would also violate the twenty second Amendment of the Contitution.
[4:48] Speaker 4: But it certainly puts a thumb in the eye of
[4:52] Speaker 4: popular intent. We had had a four term president, President Roosevelt.
[4:57] Speaker 4: The country across all political lines can included that that
[5:00] Speaker 4: was too much power for any individual to have, that
[5:04] Speaker 4: it resembled authoritarian countries too much, and we decided we
[5:08] Speaker 4: didn't want to do that anymore. And this is yet
[5:12] Speaker 4: again mister Trump and his allies disregarding the people's choice
[5:18] Speaker 4: through their constitution.
[5:20] Speaker 2: Have you heard any other theories of how he could
[5:23] Speaker 2: become president for a third term and then the other one.
[5:25] Speaker 4: I guess it's very straightforward. Just do it and see
[5:28] Speaker 4: if anyone stops you. And this Supreme Court has been
[5:33] Speaker 4: willing to avoid a number of constitutional violations and most
[5:41] Speaker 4: obviously declining to consider or allow anyone else to consider
[5:47] Speaker 4: whether mister Trump was disqualified under the insurrection clause of
[5:52] Speaker 4: the fourteenth Amendment. He may just take the position that
[5:56] Speaker 4: he can run, he can do it, and he doesn't
[5:58] Speaker 4: think anyone will stop him.
[6:00] Speaker 2: I guess this is hopeful in a sense, because he's
[6:03] Speaker 2: still talking about running and having an election rather than
[6:07] Speaker 2: just staying in office.
[6:09] Speaker 4: Well, there has been talk in the past that he
[6:14] Speaker 4: might do something like what you're suggesting. He made some
[6:18] Speaker 4: comments about that in twenty twenty, which I hope were
[6:24] Speaker 4: not taken very seriously. Certainly didn't deserve to be taken
[6:27] Speaker 4: very seriously. But some of his supporters have suggested that
[6:32] Speaker 4: he could somehow declare some kind of a state of emergency.
[6:37] Speaker 4: Someone called it a sovereignty crisis and suspend elections on
[6:41] Speaker 4: that basis, there's no authority whatsoever in the Constitution for that,
[6:46] Speaker 4: So if he were to do that, he would effectively
[6:48] Speaker 4: be repudiating the Constitution.
[6:51] Speaker 2: And you think that the Supreme Court might not even
[6:54] Speaker 2: step in if he decides to run for a third term.
[6:58] Speaker 4: No, I think they would. I think this Court is
[7:02] Speaker 4: hoping against hope that he won't force their hand by
[7:06] Speaker 4: doing something completely delegitimizing. But I don't believe that there
[7:11] Speaker 4: are five justices who have so totally lost faith in
[7:15] Speaker 4: the country that they would put up with that.
[7:17] Speaker 2: I mean, it could be he's trolling the Democrats, he's
[7:21] Speaker 2: entertaining his base, he doesn't want to look like a
[7:24] Speaker 2: lame duck, or he just wants to continue to be
[7:26] Speaker 2: the center of attention with this speculation.
[7:30] Speaker 4: Yes, I think so. Presidents have often had a lot
[7:33] Speaker 4: of trouble in their second terms in office. President Reagan
[7:39] Speaker 4: was unstoppable in his first term and stumbled quite badly
[7:43] Speaker 4: in his second. President Bush was very strong in his
[7:48] Speaker 4: first and got the Great Recession and Hurricane Katrina in
[7:53] Speaker 4: the second. President Obama lost all kinds of esteem by
[7:57] Speaker 4: his second term, And I think President Trump does want
[8:00] Speaker 4: to follow that example and was.
[8:03] Speaker 2: It President Reagan who suggested getting rid of the twenty
[8:07] Speaker 2: second Amendment.
[8:08] Speaker 3: He did.
[8:08] Speaker 4: I'm not sure how seriously. A number of presidents get
[8:13] Speaker 4: fond of the job and start thinking that the twenty
[8:16] Speaker 4: second Amendment is a bad idea, but I don't think
[8:19] Speaker 4: anyone took him very seriously or move very far with it,
[8:23] Speaker 4: in part because President Reagan was already quite a fan stage.
[8:27] Speaker 4: Of course, President Trump is much older.
[8:30] Speaker 2: And Trump would be the oldest president in history by
[8:33] Speaker 2: the time he leaves office, assuming, of course, that he
[8:36] Speaker 2: leaves at the end of his second term. Trump has
[8:39] Speaker 2: already done so much to expand his presidential authority. It's
[8:45] Speaker 2: not even a year into his second term. He's used
[8:48] Speaker 2: the specter of emergencies to impose tariffs, to send the
[8:52] Speaker 2: military into democratic led cities, and to shoot at supposed
[8:57] Speaker 2: Venezuelan drug runners at see. Have you ever seen a
[9:01] Speaker 2: president in these circumstances of peacetime exercised so much power,
[9:07] Speaker 2: often using the military.
[9:09] Speaker 4: Now, there's nothing remotely close to this. Richard Dixon was accused,
[9:13] Speaker 4: with some justification of trying to build an imperial presidency,
[9:18] Speaker 4: but I can't think of anything that mister Nixon tried
[9:21] Speaker 4: to do that mister Trump hasn't done much more of
[9:25] Speaker 4: And I can think of many things that mister Trump
[9:27] Speaker 4: has done that mister Nixon never dreamed of doing. President
[9:31] Speaker 4: Lincoln used a great many powers during the Civil War,
[9:35] Speaker 4: some of which may have exceeded his constitutional authority, not
[9:40] Speaker 4: on the level of what we're seeing here.
[9:43] Speaker 2: David, do you think that of the Supreme Court cases
[9:46] Speaker 2: coming up that are going to test presidential authority, is
[9:51] Speaker 2: the Tariff's case the most significant or is there another
[9:55] Speaker 2: one that's more significant.
[9:58] Speaker 4: The Tariff's case is extremely significant because the Supreme Court
[10:04] Speaker 4: is filled with self defined textualists, and it's almost impossible
[10:11] Speaker 4: to find anything like the powers the President is claiming
[10:16] Speaker 4: in the text of the statute he is citing. So
[10:19] Speaker 4: the Court is going to have to either abandon any
[10:23] Speaker 4: pretense of textualism or limit the president's authority very dramatically.
[10:29] Speaker 3: There.
[10:30] Speaker 4: The other case that I'm watching very closely is the
[10:33] Speaker 4: case involving doctor Cook in the Federal Reserve, because the
[10:37] Speaker 4: Supreme Court basically told President Trump, you can fire anyone
[10:42] Speaker 4: except a Federal Reserve governor, and he turned around and
[10:45] Speaker 4: fired a Federal Reserve governor. If the Supreme Court is
[10:49] Speaker 4: willing to let him do that. Then they are effectively
[10:52] Speaker 4: allowing themselves to be humiliated by the President, and we
[10:56] Speaker 4: can't really expect much of them going forward.
[11:00] Speaker 2: Think of Trump saying he's going to attend the Supreme
[11:02] Speaker 2: Court oral arguments on the tariffs.
[11:06] Speaker 4: I think oral arguments are fascinating and you think for
[11:09] Speaker 4: a good time. I think with most courts, when a
[11:13] Speaker 4: party seeks to pressure them, the court feels considerable pressure
[11:18] Speaker 4: to demonstrate its independence. If I were a lawyer at
[11:23] Speaker 4: the White House or Justice Department, I would beg him
[11:25] Speaker 4: not to do that.
[11:27] Speaker 2: We will find out on November fifth whether he attends
[11:30] Speaker 2: the oral arguments or not. Thanks so much, David. That's
[11:34] Speaker 2: Professor David Super of Georgetown Law. Coming up next on
[11:38] Speaker 2: the Bloomberg Law Show, we'll look at the wrongful death
[11:42] Speaker 2: trial of Los Angeles pitcher Tyler Skaggs. His wife and
[11:46] Speaker 2: parents are suing the Los Angeles Angels for more than
[11:50] Speaker 2: one hundred million dollars. I'm June Grosso and you're listening
[11:53] Speaker 2: to Bloomberg.
[11:54] Speaker 4: Tyler Skagg's taking them out for the Angels.
[11:57] Speaker 2: Tyler Skaggs a picture for the Los Angele Angelus Angels
[12:01] Speaker 2: was just twenty seven years old when he died of
[12:04] Speaker 2: a drug overdose while on the road with the team.
[12:07] Speaker 2: Three years later, Eric Kay, the former Angels communications director,
[12:12] Speaker 2: was convicted of supplying Skags with a counterfeit oxy codone
[12:16] Speaker 2: pill laced with fentanol. He was sentenced to twenty two
[12:20] Speaker 2: years in prison. Now, Skag's wife and his parents are
[12:24] Speaker 2: suing the Angels, claiming the team knew or should have known,
[12:28] Speaker 2: that Kay was supplying drugs to players. They're asking for
[12:32] Speaker 2: eighteen million dollars for Skag's lost earnings, as well as
[12:36] Speaker 2: compensation for the family's suffering and punitive damages. Here are
[12:41] Speaker 2: Skag's wife and mother after Kay's conviction.
[12:45] Speaker 1: I miss Tyler so much. He was he was my
[12:48] Speaker 1: only son, and you know, I'm not going to be
[12:52] Speaker 1: a grandma. I'm not going to be able to hold
[12:54] Speaker 1: a grandchild, and those things are painful. I think about
[12:56] Speaker 1: that all the time.
[12:58] Speaker 2: I wonder sometimes ever be as happy as I was.
[13:04] Speaker 2: The Angels say that team officials didn't know Skaggs was
[13:08] Speaker 2: taking drugs, and that any drug activity involving him and
[13:12] Speaker 2: Kay happened on their own time. My guest is healthcare
[13:16] Speaker 2: attorney Harry Nelson, a partner at leech Tishman Nelson Hardiman.
[13:21] Speaker 2: He's the author of the book The United States of Opioids.
[13:26] Speaker 2: Harry Skaggs died in twenty nineteen, and the civil trial
[13:30] Speaker 2: has just started. Tell us about the family's claims and
[13:35] Speaker 2: the Los Angeles Angels defense.
[13:38] Speaker 5: So, Tyler Skaggs died in twenty nineteen in the hotel
[13:41] Speaker 5: room on this baseball trip with Los Angeles Angels, and
[13:45] Speaker 5: his family, both his parents and his widow brought us
[13:48] Speaker 5: civil trials arguing that the Angels had a duty to
[13:52] Speaker 5: protect Tyler and that they breached that duty by allowing
[13:56] Speaker 5: this communications director or former communications director from the team
[14:00] Speaker 5: give the players access to drugs and essentially to fetch
[14:04] Speaker 5: them for players, and that the team should be held
[14:06] Speaker 5: liable for the death and for a significant amount of
[14:11] Speaker 5: lost earnings up to potentially at least two hundred million,
[14:14] Speaker 5: I think is an argument. And then the question is
[14:16] Speaker 5: really what the duty of the team, the baseball team,
[14:20] Speaker 5: it's agents and supervisors had to protect him from the
[14:23] Speaker 5: harm of drug use and access to a supplier of drugs.
[14:27] Speaker 2: Is the judge going to tell the jury what the
[14:30] Speaker 2: duty is. Who's going to decide what the duty is.
[14:33] Speaker 5: Yeah, so the question of legal duty is a question
[14:36] Speaker 5: of law that a judge is going to have to
[14:37] Speaker 5: instruct the jury on. That will be part of the
[14:40] Speaker 5: jury instructions that stuff parties are going to make arguments on.
[14:43] Speaker 5: And the real question is, we know that teams have
[14:46] Speaker 5: a duty to protect players from foreseeable harm, and the
[14:51] Speaker 5: question is really whether the harm in this case of
[14:54] Speaker 5: drug use of access to suppliers was a foreseeable harm.
[14:58] Speaker 5: And then, of course the next question being whether the
[15:00] Speaker 5: team breached that duty by allowing k communications director access
[15:05] Speaker 5: to the players, by failing to supervise him, by failing
[15:08] Speaker 5: to intervene as the family allege as they did.
[15:11] Speaker 2: What's the defense. What are the angels saying?
[15:14] Speaker 5: The team's defense is that this is not something that
[15:17] Speaker 5: they knew or could have known about, that Tylers Skaggs
[15:21] Speaker 5: was a high performing player who appeared to be, you know,
[15:25] Speaker 5: appropriately acting as part of the team, that there was
[15:28] Speaker 5: no evidence of at risk behavior of sort of bad
[15:33] Speaker 5: conduct off the field or anything unsafe, and that they
[15:37] Speaker 5: behaved reasonably in the way that they acted, and that
[15:40] Speaker 5: they didn't have that responsibility to manage this problem or
[15:45] Speaker 5: the person who's really the focus of the allegations here.
[15:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like the plaintiff's whole case is based
[15:52] Speaker 2: on this Eric Kay, who is sitting in prison with
[15:56] Speaker 2: a twenty two year sentence.
[15:59] Speaker 5: Yeah, it really does. That's really the core argument, because
[16:02] Speaker 5: you know, it's very difficult to see how you know,
[16:06] Speaker 5: a sports team or any organization can manage behaviors that's
[16:10] Speaker 5: out of sight where there aren't warning signs, and even
[16:12] Speaker 5: you know, even the plane iff witnesses. Steve Trout, the
[16:15] Speaker 5: legendary player who testified this past week, said that there
[16:18] Speaker 5: was nothing that he saw in Tyler Skaggs that was
[16:21] Speaker 5: any kind of bad behavior or a warning sign, And
[16:23] Speaker 5: everything seems to be hanging on Eric k and the
[16:26] Speaker 5: warning signs that there was something going on, and that,
[16:28] Speaker 5: by the way, is very interesting. Steve Trout testified that
[16:31] Speaker 5: there were a lot of unusual behaviors in Kay. It
[16:35] Speaker 5: was sort of almost like a gesture in the most
[16:38] Speaker 5: benign sense, but obviously was doing some really terrible things
[16:41] Speaker 5: in terms of functioning as a drug dealer or Tyler
[16:44] Speaker 5: and other players.
[16:45] Speaker 2: During K's criminal trial, Skagg's wife said that she didn't
[16:49] Speaker 2: know about his drug use, so if she doesn't know
[16:51] Speaker 2: about his drug use, then how is the team supposed
[16:54] Speaker 2: to know?
[16:55] Speaker 5: It's a fair question, right, Clearly, Tyler Scaggs was able
[16:58] Speaker 5: to keep his drug use from from people very close
[17:00] Speaker 5: to him and even his wife, So it is tricky
[17:03] Speaker 5: to know. And at the same time, you know, we
[17:05] Speaker 5: do in our society hold employers responsible for the behavior
[17:10] Speaker 5: of their employees. That's known, and so eric K, there
[17:13] Speaker 5: clearly were concerns there was something going on with him
[17:16] Speaker 5: that he himself was behaving in sort of disturbing ways.
[17:20] Speaker 5: So it's a tough call. I mean, I think it's
[17:22] Speaker 5: fair to say that the Angels, you know, could have
[17:25] Speaker 5: easily behaved reasonably and missed anything going on with Tyler's Staggs.
[17:29] Speaker 5: But clearly there was something unusual about eric K and
[17:33] Speaker 5: his behavior.
[17:34] Speaker 2: Now where does it fit in that there was evidence
[17:38] Speaker 2: that Skaggs used drugs when he was with the Diamondbacks,
[17:43] Speaker 2: and that again during Cay's criminal trial, his mother testified
[17:48] Speaker 2: that her son had an issue with oxy codone going
[17:51] Speaker 2: back to twenty thirteen. He wasn't prescribed opioids after undergoing
[17:57] Speaker 2: Tommy John's surgery in August twenty four because of that.
[18:02] Speaker 5: That's also, yeah, another dimension the case, sort of player safety,
[18:05] Speaker 5: in terms of how much the team should have known.
[18:07] Speaker 5: The Angels are arguing, of course this Gags had this
[18:09] Speaker 5: prior drug problems in the past, that he was drinking heavily,
[18:13] Speaker 5: that he was getting killed from other places. But the
[18:15] Speaker 5: point is actually, I think a strong one that the
[18:18] Speaker 5: family is making here, which is that there was a
[18:20] Speaker 5: warning sign. You know, the team should have known because
[18:23] Speaker 5: this player, you know, players in general, are at risk
[18:27] Speaker 5: of so much physical and emotional mental strain in the
[18:31] Speaker 5: work that they're doing, that they're inherently at risk for
[18:34] Speaker 5: pains and for addiction, and that the team had a
[18:38] Speaker 5: duty to be more proactive in how it's monitored access
[18:41] Speaker 5: to the drugs themselves. So I think it's a really
[18:43] Speaker 5: interesting issue and it could have a profound impact on
[18:47] Speaker 5: how sports teams generally are monitoring risks around control substances,
[18:52] Speaker 5: not only how they screen employees and non players, but
[18:56] Speaker 5: also how they think about, you know, the risks associated
[18:59] Speaker 5: with game and with you know, its impact on players.
[19:03] Speaker 2: How much responsibility does Skags have for his own behavior,
[19:08] Speaker 2: you know, knowing that he had these drug problems, etc.
[19:12] Speaker 2: Doesn't he have some responsibility as well.
[19:15] Speaker 5: Look, I think that is kind of the tragedy of
[19:18] Speaker 5: you know, the opioid crisis writ large. Obviously, Skags was
[19:24] Speaker 5: taking enormous personal risk and really engaging in self destructive behavior.
[19:29] Speaker 5: And you know, that's the case essentially in a way,
[19:32] Speaker 5: that's that's every case of addiction. But we noticed it
[19:36] Speaker 5: just heres, particularly because this was such a supreme talent
[19:40] Speaker 5: so young, you know, lost as a result of it.
[19:43] Speaker 5: But I do think this really is a deep question
[19:46] Speaker 5: within the opiated crisis. The bottom line is, yes, the
[19:48] Speaker 5: people who are engaging in drug use have responsibility for
[19:52] Speaker 5: their conduct. But that's what we are, right and the
[19:55] Speaker 5: question is what do we do and where do we
[19:56] Speaker 5: lay down the duty of opposing safety be externally and
[20:01] Speaker 5: accountability externally because people like Tyler Skaggs are taking risks
[20:07] Speaker 5: that they simply should not be.
[20:09] Speaker 2: So the cause of death and the angel's attorney brought
[20:12] Speaker 2: this out. The autopsy showed levels of xy codone, fentanyl,
[20:17] Speaker 2: and alcohol, and he said that Skags died due to
[20:21] Speaker 2: his reckless decision to mix large amounts of alcohol with narcotics.
[20:27] Speaker 5: So clearly, you know, this is the classic example you
[20:30] Speaker 5: learn in the first year of law school about contributing factors. Right,
[20:33] Speaker 5: alcohol was clearly a contributing factor, although there's no evidence
[20:37] Speaker 5: that had Tyler Skaggs simply been drinking that night that
[20:40] Speaker 5: he would have died, So it was therefore not the
[20:42] Speaker 5: soul cause. So there has to be some breakdown. He
[20:45] Speaker 5: was hit some level of fentanyl, some level of oxycodon,
[20:47] Speaker 5: some level of alcohol that combined to cause him badly
[20:52] Speaker 5: to choke on his own vomit effectively under the three substances.
[20:55] Speaker 5: So you know, the role of alcohol as a contributing
[20:58] Speaker 5: factor some that definitely intoxicated him and made things worse
[21:03] Speaker 5: is something that the jury will and the judge will
[21:05] Speaker 5: have to take into acount what that role was. He
[21:07] Speaker 5: clearly made a choice to drink significantly that night, which
[21:11] Speaker 5: was part of the chain of causation here. But it's
[21:13] Speaker 5: pretty clear that had he not had the bentanyl lace
[21:17] Speaker 5: pills that Airk supplied, we wouldn't be where we are
[21:21] Speaker 5: and he wouldn't have died that night.
[21:23] Speaker 2: So Eric Kay was convicted of supplying Skags with a
[21:28] Speaker 2: counterfeit oxycodone pill laced with phent and al. Since it
[21:32] Speaker 2: was counterfeit, does that mean that there were other harmful
[21:35] Speaker 2: ingredients besides those in the pills.
[21:39] Speaker 5: Now, the pills here were fentanyl lace, they were counterfeited pills.
[21:43] Speaker 5: So essentially, you know, like so many people have died
[21:45] Speaker 5: in the in this crisis, it's clear that you know,
[21:49] Speaker 5: er k unwittingly gave counterfeit pills that were significantly fentanyl.
[21:55] Speaker 5: It appears that there was some mix of fentyl ox coota,
[21:58] Speaker 5: and it's not clear to me whether those were like
[22:00] Speaker 5: different pills. It's clear that Eric Kaye was like many people,
[22:05] Speaker 5: buying things that he thought were oxy codone and in
[22:08] Speaker 5: fact were you know, street based toxic sentinel that he
[22:11] Speaker 5: was delivering to tylish guys.
[22:13] Speaker 2: When deciding on the damages related to Skaggs lost earnings,
[22:17] Speaker 2: he was in the starting lineup, but apparently struggling with injuries.
[22:23] Speaker 2: So how will each side approach this and how will
[22:27] Speaker 2: the jury make a final determination, because with the injuries
[22:31] Speaker 2: and the drug use, it might be hard to tell
[22:34] Speaker 2: how successful he would have been.
[22:37] Speaker 5: The damages in these cases in case like this are
[22:39] Speaker 5: a combination of pain and suffering and lost earnings. And
[22:42] Speaker 5: as you're eluding, lost earnings is the big variable, you know,
[22:46] Speaker 5: potentially and then of course punitive damages. So you know,
[22:49] Speaker 5: my view of these cases is that even if the
[22:52] Speaker 5: jury holds the Angel responsible, which if I had to
[22:56] Speaker 5: make a bet here I would, I think is the
[22:58] Speaker 5: way this case will go, the jury will tell us
[23:00] Speaker 5: a lot by the amount of damages that they hold
[23:04] Speaker 5: the team responsible for, you know, the plain of star
[23:06] Speaker 5: hoping that the jury may you know, impose as much
[23:09] Speaker 5: as you know, a billion or half a million dollars
[23:11] Speaker 5: of damages when you had impunitives here. The highly specular part,
[23:15] Speaker 5: of course, is how far the lost earnings would go.
[23:19] Speaker 5: And it's anyone's guess how this jury is going to go.
[23:22] Speaker 5: I always look at these damage awards and think that
[23:24] Speaker 5: there's a largely emotional component in terms of how the jurors,
[23:29] Speaker 5: you know, how much anger and how strong of a
[23:32] Speaker 5: message they're trying to send to the team about this case.
[23:36] Speaker 2: Coming up next, I'll continue this conversation with healthcare attorney
[23:39] Speaker 2: Harry Nelson. This seems like a case that could have
[23:43] Speaker 2: settled before trial. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg.
[23:51] Speaker 2: The wrongful death trial of Los Angeles Angels Pitcher Tyler
[23:55] Speaker 2: Skaggs comes more than six years after, he was found
[23:59] Speaker 2: dead in a bourbon Dallas hotel room where he was
[24:02] Speaker 2: staying as the Angels were supposed to open a four
[24:05] Speaker 2: game series against the Texas Rangers. A coroner's report said
[24:09] Speaker 2: that Skaggs choked to death on his vomit, and a
[24:12] Speaker 2: toxic mix of alcohol, fentanyl, and oxycodone was found in
[24:17] Speaker 2: his system. Eric Kaye was convicted in twenty twenty two
[24:20] Speaker 2: of providing Skags with a counterfeit oxycodone pill laced with fentanyl.
[24:26] Speaker 2: I've been talking to healthcare attorney Harry Nelson of Leech
[24:29] Speaker 2: Tishman Nelson Hardiman. Harry, you think that the plaintiffs will
[24:34] Speaker 2: win here, so Skagg's wife and his parents. Why did
[24:38] Speaker 2: you come to that conclusion.
[24:41] Speaker 5: I just think Tyler's widow, I think his family are
[24:44] Speaker 5: you deeply sympathetic? And I think this is a case.
[24:49] Speaker 5: As much as this problem of opioid overdose death is
[24:53] Speaker 5: a just profound national crisis, Tyler Skaggs has become uniquely
[24:58] Speaker 5: a symbol. And it does appear that the team you know,
[25:02] Speaker 5: was a part of the circumstances that led to it,
[25:06] Speaker 5: in terms of allowing someone like Eric kay into an
[25:09] Speaker 5: official team position. It wasn't just like he was part
[25:12] Speaker 5: of Tyler Skagg's entourage. And I think in general, when
[25:15] Speaker 5: you read the coverage, I do think that is a
[25:18] Speaker 5: unique problem that the angel stays here and that makes
[25:21] Speaker 5: this an uphill double for them.
[25:23] Speaker 2: I understand that you know the wife's suing. Is it
[25:25] Speaker 2: unusual to have the parents suing.
[25:28] Speaker 5: No, A lot of these cases are initiated by parents.
[25:30] Speaker 5: You know. Unfortunately, in a crisis is affecting so many
[25:32] Speaker 5: young people, you have so many people who are unmarried
[25:36] Speaker 5: or who never had children, and so it's very common
[25:39] Speaker 5: to see the family doing I think the Tyler Skag's
[25:41] Speaker 5: family have been particularly articulate about this tragedy and that
[25:46] Speaker 5: have made it into a symbol. But unfortunately, I know
[25:48] Speaker 5: too many parents who are in the same position and
[25:52] Speaker 5: just looking somewhere for relief. And very few times can
[25:55] Speaker 5: you point to an organization like a professional baseball team
[25:59] Speaker 5: and say they're responsible. So many of these opioid overdose
[26:02] Speaker 5: deaths there's an anonymous drug dealer and nobody to actually
[26:06] Speaker 5: hold financially responsible. So that's another piece of this case.
[26:10] Speaker 5: It's very unusual.
[26:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to ask you whether you've seen
[26:13] Speaker 2: any other cases involving opioid deaths where the employer was responsible.
[26:18] Speaker 2: I guess baseball's kind of a different scenario.
[26:21] Speaker 5: Professional sports are certainly, you know, unusual. We've seen it
[26:25] Speaker 5: also in healthcare. Actually, the thing about professional sports and
[26:29] Speaker 5: frankly sports at all, you know, at college level as well,
[26:32] Speaker 5: is that you have these medical operations around the team
[26:37] Speaker 5: that lead to a much higher level of access. We
[26:40] Speaker 5: of course see the same thing with celebrities who are
[26:43] Speaker 5: able to have you know, doctors at the ready, ready
[26:46] Speaker 5: to get them whatever they need, and we've seen so
[26:48] Speaker 5: many of those crises. Occasionally, we do see in the
[26:51] Speaker 5: healthcare system the fact that people's proximity allows them if
[26:55] Speaker 5: there isn't care taken around controlled substance access there too,
[26:58] Speaker 5: But that is a very unusual faster than this case,
[27:00] Speaker 5: and I think one of the reasons why it's forcing
[27:03] Speaker 5: us to confront these questions of duty in ways that
[27:06] Speaker 5: I think we'll ripple out and affect a lot more
[27:08] Speaker 5: of how people think about the responsibility to be watching
[27:11] Speaker 5: out and protecting people from this risk.
[27:15] Speaker 2: This does seem like a case that should have settled
[27:17] Speaker 2: before trial.
[27:19] Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I can't speak to the negotiations here.
[27:22] Speaker 5: But I don't think that the team views it as
[27:25] Speaker 5: a success that this case went to trial. I do
[27:28] Speaker 5: know that there were offers, but the family I don't
[27:31] Speaker 5: know to what extent they decided to go to trials
[27:33] Speaker 5: simply to make sure that this case received attention and
[27:37] Speaker 5: to deal with the problem on a bigger level. But
[27:39] Speaker 5: clearly the exposure of the team again which people are
[27:43] Speaker 5: saying if the punitive damage is numbers were validated, could
[27:47] Speaker 5: go up to a billion or more dollars, is really
[27:50] Speaker 5: really substantial. So the fact that this case did not
[27:52] Speaker 5: settle earlier is not a good thing for the team.
[27:56] Speaker 2: Up to a billion. I know that some jury verdicts
[27:59] Speaker 2: have been just through the roof lately, but how do
[28:02] Speaker 2: they reach a billion dollars here from the one hundred
[28:05] Speaker 2: and eighteen million in lost earnings.
[28:08] Speaker 5: No, that's with the punitive damage numbers that the planet's
[28:10] Speaker 5: lawyers have asked for. But I will not be surprised
[28:14] Speaker 5: to see this case have a nine figure settlement, meaning
[28:17] Speaker 5: hundreds of millions of dollars. So I think you know
[28:19] Speaker 5: the Angels are at risk. You can argue all you
[28:21] Speaker 5: want that Tyler Keag never would have you know rebounded
[28:24] Speaker 5: and been a great player. But I think when people
[28:27] Speaker 5: are looking at a young man with so much potential,
[28:30] Speaker 5: I think the natural tendency is going to be to
[28:33] Speaker 5: assume that the last earnings are real and to give
[28:37] Speaker 5: a substantial reward here, Harry.
[28:39] Speaker 2: Don't you think that jury's have been sort of giving
[28:42] Speaker 2: out judgments that reflect jackpot lottery winnings. Even in cases
[28:48] Speaker 2: involving a single plaintiff. Jury verdicts are just exploding.
[28:52] Speaker 5: No, quite, Look, we see it in our cases that
[28:54] Speaker 5: we're handling. There's no question about this whole issue of
[28:57] Speaker 5: jury insulation and this trend of much higher award in
[29:01] Speaker 5: wrongful death cases and personal injury cases and corporate liability cases.
[29:05] Speaker 5: And I think it's a real problem because you know,
[29:07] Speaker 5: often organizations will think they have enough insurance to cover things,
[29:10] Speaker 5: and then the forces I think yours are just less
[29:14] Speaker 5: deferential to large organizations. We're living in a time when
[29:17] Speaker 5: people are, you know, more likely to distrust institutions, and
[29:21] Speaker 5: people are wanting to send messages, and nothing sends a
[29:24] Speaker 5: message in this context like a very large verdict. So
[29:27] Speaker 5: it's definitely a problematic trend. And you know, I'm finding
[29:31] Speaker 5: clients in much more mundane cases are encountering it just
[29:35] Speaker 5: because it's you know, it's like you think, you know
[29:38] Speaker 5: that standard whatever insurance policy that you have is going
[29:42] Speaker 5: to be enough. But if you get an aggressive planeflawyer
[29:44] Speaker 5: who is able to tell a story very effectively and
[29:47] Speaker 5: really emotionally moved yours, you could be looking at a
[29:50] Speaker 5: lot more exposure.
[29:51] Speaker 2: Well, the Supreme Court has set guidance that punitive damages
[29:56] Speaker 2: shouldn't exceed a nine to one ratio to compare damages,
[30:01] Speaker 2: so we shall see what happens here. Thanks for joining me, Harry.
[30:06] Speaker 2: That's Harry Nelson of Leech Tishman Nelson Hardiman. He's the
[30:10] Speaker 2: author of the United States of Opioids. And that's it
[30:14] Speaker 2: for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you
[30:16] Speaker 2: can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg
[30:19] Speaker 2: Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
[30:23] Speaker 2: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law,
[30:28] Speaker 2: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every
[30:31] Speaker 2: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso
[30:35] Speaker 2: and you're listening to Bloomberg

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