# Trump Urges Prosecution of Enemies & Luigi Mangione

An episode of [Bloomberg Law](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/277975394), 25 Sep 2025, 33 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/7c892d84-801f-4c0b-b0e9-ae2b0012ff5f/7201549a-805c-4875-8f87-b3630185cf49/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=91224201-26a6-429d-ac3c-ae2b0012ff6d

Former federal prosecutor Jessica Roth, a professor at Cardozo Law School, discusses President Trump calling on his Attorney General to prosecute his political enemies. Bloomberg legal reporter Patricia Hurtado discusses a federal judge rebuking the Justice Department for making statements about Luigi Mangione. June Grasso hosts. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio.
[0:08] Speaker 2: President Donald Trump and New York Attorney General Letitia James
[0:12] Speaker 2: have been involved in a war of words for years
[0:16] Speaker 2: over the fraud case James brought against Trump and his company.
[0:20] Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two.
[0:22] Speaker 3: This raging maniac campaigned for office, ranting and raving about
[0:26] Speaker 3: her goal.
[0:27] Speaker 4: Her only goal is.
[0:28] Speaker 3: We got to get Donald Trump.
[0:29] Speaker 4: We'll got together.
[0:30] Speaker 3: If she knew nothing about me, I never heard of her.
[0:33] Speaker 4: The scale and the scope of Donald Trump's fraud is staggering,
[0:40] Speaker 4: and so too is his ego and his belief that
[0:43] Speaker 4: the rules do not apply to him.
[0:46] Speaker 3: Very simply put, it's a witch hunt. It's a disgrace.
[0:51] Speaker 3: We have a corrupt attorney general in the state.
[0:54] Speaker 5: I am certain that he will engage in name calling
[0:58] Speaker 5: and taunts and race and call this a witch hunt.
[1:02] Speaker 5: But at the end of the day, the only thing
[1:04] Speaker 5: that matters are the facts and the numbers and numbers
[1:09] Speaker 5: my friends don't lie.
[1:11] Speaker 2: That case resulted in a four hundred and sixty four
[1:14] Speaker 2: million dollar fraud penalty, which is now on appeal to
[1:18] Speaker 2: New York State's highest court. After a low repellate court
[1:22] Speaker 2: found it to be excessive, And now the tables have turned,
[1:25] Speaker 2: and Trump's Justice Department is investigating James over whether that
[1:30] Speaker 2: fraud case violated Trump's legal rights, in addition to a
[1:35] Speaker 2: separate investigation for alleged mortgage fraud, which has stalled. On Saturday,
[1:41] Speaker 2: Trump posted on truth Social addressing US Attorney General Pam
[1:45] Speaker 2: Bondi quote, Pam, I have reviewed over thirty statements and
[1:50] Speaker 2: posts saying that essentially same old story as last time.
[1:55] Speaker 2: All talk, no action, nothing is being done. What about
[1:59] Speaker 2: Komy Adam, shifty shift, Letitia. They're all guilty as hell,
[2:04] Speaker 2: but nothing is going to be done end quote. And
[2:07] Speaker 2: on Sunday, Trump repeated his calls for quick action on
[2:11] Speaker 2: the prosecutions.
[2:12] Speaker 1: And we have to act fast. One way of the other,
[2:15] Speaker 1: one way of the other. They're guilty, they're not guilty.
[2:19] Speaker 6: We have to act fast.
[2:20] Speaker 3: If they're not.
[2:21] Speaker 1: Guilty, that's fine.
[2:22] Speaker 3: If they are guilty, or if they should be judged,
[2:25] Speaker 3: they should be judged, and we have to do it now.
[2:28] Speaker 2: My guest is former federal prosecutor Jessica Roth, a professor
[2:31] Speaker 2: at Cardozo Law School. Jessica Richard Nixon famously had an
[2:37] Speaker 2: enemy's list, but it was kept under wraps until it
[2:40] Speaker 2: was exposed by John Deane during testimony before the Watergate Committee.
[2:46] Speaker 2: But President Trump is publicly urging his attorney general to
[2:51] Speaker 2: go after his political enemies. What might the repercussions be.
[2:56] Speaker 7: Well, it's extremely unusual, to say the least, to have
[2:59] Speaker 7: it president so publicly calling for the prosecution of his
[3:03] Speaker 7: political adversaries. And should it come to pass that, in fact,
[3:07] Speaker 7: there are criminal charges brought against the people who he
[3:10] Speaker 7: is naming and urging his Attorney general to charge, I
[3:14] Speaker 7: think he's going to be providing evidence that would be
[3:17] Speaker 7: powerful in the motion to dismiss those charges based on
[3:21] Speaker 7: a claim of selective or vindictive prosecution.
[3:24] Speaker 2: Traditionally, how much input does a president have on the
[3:28] Speaker 2: Justice Department's decisions to prosecute someone?
[3:32] Speaker 7: Traditionally, the Justice Department acts independently of the president in
[3:38] Speaker 7: making individual prosecution decisions, and past administration since Watergate, have
[3:45] Speaker 7: put into place policies in order to preserve that independence
[3:49] Speaker 7: and effectively create a firewall between the prosecutors who make
[3:53] Speaker 7: charging decisions and the White House. So although the president
[3:57] Speaker 7: and his top level officials might have an appropriately would
[4:01] Speaker 7: have some input into policy priorities when it comes to
[4:05] Speaker 7: individual charging decisions. That is something that has been understood
[4:09] Speaker 7: that should be undertaken without direct input from the President,
[4:13] Speaker 7: and that communications between the Department of Justice and the
[4:17] Speaker 7: White House about cases and about even policy priorities should
[4:21] Speaker 7: be going through a select group of individuals, namely the
[4:24] Speaker 7: White House Council's Office on behalf of the White House,
[4:27] Speaker 7: and the Attorney General and other very senior people at
[4:31] Speaker 7: the Department of Justice, so that there will be essentially
[4:34] Speaker 7: some buffer between any potential interference in individual prosecution decisions.
[4:41] Speaker 2: A federal prosecutor in Virginia resigned from his post after
[4:45] Speaker 2: being told he would be removed for not bringing mortgage
[4:48] Speaker 2: fraud charges against New York Attorney General Letitia James, and
[4:53] Speaker 2: he had determined Bloomberg News's reported that there just wasn't
[4:57] Speaker 2: enough evidence to support those charges, and that's what a
[5:00] Speaker 2: prosecutor is supposed to do, right. You only bring charges
[5:04] Speaker 2: if you think you can prove your case before a jury.
[5:07] Speaker 7: It would appear that that prosecutor, who was a career prosecutor,
[5:10] Speaker 7: did do the right thing on pains of losing his job.
[5:14] Speaker 7: He was following the law and the evidence. It would appear.
[5:18] Speaker 7: Of course, we don't have a direct account from him
[5:20] Speaker 7: about what happened. But if he resigned his post or
[5:23] Speaker 7: was forced out because he refused to break charges where
[5:26] Speaker 7: there was not evidence to support a charge, or because
[5:30] Speaker 7: he thought that even if there were such evidence that
[5:32] Speaker 7: it was a politically motivated prosecution, then he upheld the
[5:36] Speaker 7: norms of prosecutorial independence and professional judgment in doing so.
[5:41] Speaker 7: And the fact that he resigned or was forced out,
[5:43] Speaker 7: depending on which account is true, I think is also
[5:46] Speaker 7: going to be an important part of any claim for
[5:50] Speaker 7: selective or vindictive prosecution if another prosecutor does file charges,
[5:55] Speaker 7: because I think it is circumstantial evidence that previous prosecutors,
[6:00] Speaker 7: who are career prosecutors who looked at the evidence, thought
[6:02] Speaker 7: they were not warranted.
[6:03] Speaker 1: In this case, it's a high.
[6:05] Speaker 2: Bar, isn't it to get a case dismissed on the
[6:08] Speaker 2: basis of selective or vindictive prosecution.
[6:12] Speaker 7: It is a very high bar, and such claims are
[6:15] Speaker 7: notoriously difficult to win on because there is a presumption
[6:19] Speaker 7: of regularity that attaches to prosecution's decisions, and it requires
[6:23] Speaker 7: a proof of actual animists in bringing the case against
[6:26] Speaker 7: an individual. So here the fact that the president is
[6:30] Speaker 7: out in public effectively directing a prosecution of his political
[6:35] Speaker 7: opponents regardless of the evidence, essentially saying they're guilty of
[6:39] Speaker 7: something without regard to whatever may be available or what
[6:43] Speaker 7: those particular charges might require as elements under the law.
[6:48] Speaker 7: Combined with the fact that a career prosecutor who was
[6:51] Speaker 7: charged with the investigation apparently refused to bring charges and
[6:55] Speaker 7: was fired or resigned over that decision, all of that
[6:59] Speaker 7: may create ccumstances in which a court actually might dismiss
[7:04] Speaker 7: the case for vindictive prosecution or in a minimum, order
[7:07] Speaker 7: a hearing and discovery to get to the bottom of
[7:10] Speaker 7: the facts about what actually transpired before the case was brought.
[7:14] Speaker 2: And yet, according to Bloomberg News sources, the Justice Department
[7:18] Speaker 2: is pushing ahead with its investigation of Letitia James for
[7:24] Speaker 2: mortgage fraud and apparently got the green light from the
[7:29] Speaker 2: Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche. But why push this forward
[7:34] Speaker 2: at this point when the defense is James could raise
[7:37] Speaker 2: seem to be mounting.
[7:39] Speaker 7: I can't speak to the reasoning that is occurring within
[7:42] Speaker 7: the Department of Justice and the Attorney's Office in Virginia
[7:45] Speaker 7: in continuing the investigation and preparing charges if that, in
[7:49] Speaker 7: fact is what is happening. The first line of defense,
[7:53] Speaker 7: if you will, would be a grand jury that would
[7:56] Speaker 7: hear the evidence that may not return an indictment. That
[8:00] Speaker 7: also would be highly unusual. And yet we are seeing
[8:03] Speaker 7: around the country grandeurors actually refusing to indict on cases
[8:08] Speaker 7: where the evidence is lacking or for some other reason
[8:11] Speaker 7: that's within their purview to reject the charges, perhaps because
[8:14] Speaker 7: they perceive them as unwarranted, because they're trivial or disproportionate,
[8:19] Speaker 7: or perhaps because they perceive a political bias.
[8:22] Speaker 1: So first we'd have.
[8:23] Speaker 7: To see if a grand jury actually would return an indictment.
[8:26] Speaker 7: If they don't, the case couldn't go forward unless the
[8:30] Speaker 7: Department of Justice tried to present it to another grand jury,
[8:33] Speaker 7: which they could. But if they ever do get an indictment,
[8:36] Speaker 7: then it would go before a judge, and the defense
[8:38] Speaker 7: and guessing would bring emotion to dismiss based on selective
[8:42] Speaker 7: or vindictive prosecution. And there although there is this evidence
[8:47] Speaker 7: we've been discussing that would suggest that these are politically
[8:50] Speaker 7: motivated prosecutions, as the President has been calling for them
[8:54] Speaker 7: in public, the challenge might be proving that actually the
[8:59] Speaker 7: prosecution would not have been brought but for the political animus,
[9:03] Speaker 7: and then also attributing the political animus that the president
[9:07] Speaker 7: is voicing to the prosecutors who actually.
[9:09] Speaker 1: Brought the charge.
[9:11] Speaker 7: I think that those hurdles could be overcome and the
[9:14] Speaker 7: unique facts presented in this case, but I imagine those
[9:17] Speaker 7: would be things that the court would have to consider.
[9:19] Speaker 7: The typical case where somebody brings the claim of vindictive
[9:22] Speaker 7: or selective prosecution virtually vindictive prosecution, it is often after
[9:27] Speaker 7: someone has previously been charged and then additional charges are
[9:30] Speaker 7: launched against them after they exercised their right to go
[9:33] Speaker 7: to trial, for example, and so the claim is that
[9:35] Speaker 7: the individual prosecutor involved was being vindictive or a vindictiveness
[9:40] Speaker 7: based on something that the individual who was charged did
[9:44] Speaker 7: that irritated the individual prosecutor, something perhaps in that person's
[9:48] Speaker 7: personal life or business affairs. What's unusual here is that
[9:51] Speaker 7: we would have potentially aligned prosecutors speaking indictment before a
[9:55] Speaker 7: grand jury, and the animus would have to be attributed
[9:58] Speaker 7: to that person. That is essentially going from the President
[10:00] Speaker 7: of the United States through the Attorney General. And so
[10:03] Speaker 7: that's just not a typical fact pattern that we see
[10:05] Speaker 7: in these cases.
[10:06] Speaker 2: The use of mortgage fraud allegations is not restricted to James.
[10:12] Speaker 2: The Trump administration is pursuing similar charges against California Senator
[10:16] Speaker 2: Adam Schiff and FED Chair Lisa Cook. I mean, the
[10:20] Speaker 2: federal government has rarely brought criminal charges over these kinds
[10:24] Speaker 2: of misstatements about primary residents and mortgage records. And also
[10:29] Speaker 2: there's reporting that members of Trump's cabinet and other Republican
[10:34] Speaker 2: officials made similar types of misstatements in mortgage applications. Would
[10:41] Speaker 2: that be part of a pattern of proof in a
[10:43] Speaker 2: selective or vindictive prosecution defense?
[10:48] Speaker 5: Well.
[10:48] Speaker 7: To prevail on a claim of selective prosecution, the defendants
[10:52] Speaker 7: would have to establish that they were selected for prosecution
[10:59] Speaker 7: for a crime that is not frequently charged, and that
[11:04] Speaker 7: they were selected essentially on the basis of some characteristic
[11:07] Speaker 7: that is protected. Often such cases are alleged that the
[11:11] Speaker 7: person was selected based on a legally protected classification such
[11:15] Speaker 7: as race, But the claims could also be based on
[11:18] Speaker 7: the person having exercised their First Amendment rights of speech
[11:22] Speaker 7: and political assembly, for example, And so it would be
[11:26] Speaker 7: helpful to prevail on such a claim if the defendants
[11:29] Speaker 7: could show that standalone mortgage fraud claims without proof of
[11:33] Speaker 7: other criminal activity were rarely brought, and that there were
[11:38] Speaker 7: other similarly situated persons like themselves and other members of
[11:43] Speaker 7: the president's own parties, So people who are not political foes,
[11:46] Speaker 7: people who had not exercised their First Amendment rights to
[11:49] Speaker 7: criticize the president. If those people were factually similarly situated
[11:53] Speaker 7: but were not prosecuted, if that could be established, that
[11:57] Speaker 7: would be very helpful to the defendants if they were
[11:59] Speaker 7: to bring us elective prosecution claim.
[12:02] Speaker 2: The criminal referrals are coming from Bill Poulty, who is
[12:08] Speaker 2: the head of the FHFA, and Adam Schiff's attorney. Pret Barrara,
[12:15] Speaker 2: the former US Attorney for the Southern District of New York,
[12:19] Speaker 2: has described Paulty's actions as highly irregular and part of
[12:23] Speaker 2: a pattern of him misusing his office to go after
[12:26] Speaker 2: Trump's political opponents. Would his involvement here be part of,
[12:32] Speaker 2: you know, a defense if there were.
[12:34] Speaker 7: A claim for selective or vindictive prosecution, I think the
[12:38] Speaker 7: court would take into account what are the circumstances that
[12:42] Speaker 7: contributed to bringing the prosecution, And certainly, if there were
[12:46] Speaker 7: an evidentiary hearing, the court would consider evidence about those
[12:51] Speaker 7: circumstances and the historical facts about how this case actually
[12:55] Speaker 7: wound up being brought. I don't think the fact that
[12:58] Speaker 7: it originated in a referral from one particular agency versus
[13:01] Speaker 7: another would be dispositive. But if there's no history of
[13:06] Speaker 7: cases being referred from that agency that resulted in charges
[13:10] Speaker 7: being brought for a mortgage fraud, that would certainly be
[13:12] Speaker 7: I think a data point in the Court's analysis of
[13:15] Speaker 7: whether there was animus or selection based on political affiliation
[13:20] Speaker 7: or First Amendment rights behind these particular prosecutions. Something that
[13:25] Speaker 7: looks irregular, In other words, in the course of how
[13:27] Speaker 7: these cases were investigated and the decision to charge was made,
[13:31] Speaker 7: would be something that would be of concern to the Court.
[13:34] Speaker 2: Coming up next the White House's response, I'm June Grosso
[13:38] Speaker 2: and you're listening to Bloomberg. President Donald Trump appealed to
[13:44] Speaker 2: his Attorney General Pam Bondy on truth Social on Saturday
[13:49] Speaker 2: to bring charges against former FBI director James Comy, California
[13:54] Speaker 2: Senator Adam Schiff, and New York Attorney General Letitia James,
[13:58] Speaker 2: and the Associated Is reporting that the Justice Department is
[14:02] Speaker 2: preparing to ask a grand jury to indict Comy on
[14:07] Speaker 2: allegations that he lied to Congress. As prosecutors approach a
[14:11] Speaker 2: legal deadline for bringing charges, I've been talking to former
[14:15] Speaker 2: federal prosecutor Jessica Roth, a professor at Cardozo Law School.
[14:21] Speaker 2: At a press briefing on Monday, the White House Press
[14:24] Speaker 2: Secretary Caroline Levitt said that the President is fulfilling his
[14:29] Speaker 2: promise to restore a Department of Justice that demands accountability.
[14:34] Speaker 6: It is not weaponizing the Department of Justice to demand
[14:37] Speaker 6: accountability for those who weaponize the Department of Justice, and
[14:42] Speaker 6: nobody knows what that looks like more than President Trump.
[14:45] Speaker 2: Is there any explanation that would justify bringing these kinds
[14:49] Speaker 2: of prosecutions against political enemies.
[14:54] Speaker 7: I can't see any explanation for characterizing the these investigations
[15:01] Speaker 7: that gets around the fact that they seem to be
[15:05] Speaker 7: explicitly politically motivated and targeting the president's enemies and perceived
[15:11] Speaker 7: political enemies. If the President wanted to prioritize mortgage fraud cases,
[15:18] Speaker 7: that would be neutral in terms of who would be targeted.
[15:22] Speaker 7: That would be one thing.
[15:23] Speaker 1: That is the.
[15:24] Speaker 7: Kind of policy decision with respect to criminal law enforcement
[15:28] Speaker 7: that prior administrations have pursued. Every administration has its criminal
[15:33] Speaker 7: law enforcement priorities, but to start with the individuals who
[15:39] Speaker 7: are to be prosecuted just flips the normal course and
[15:43] Speaker 7: the way in which decisions to investigate and prosecute should
[15:46] Speaker 7: be done and historically have been done following the facts
[15:50] Speaker 7: and the law, not targeting a particular individual to see
[15:54] Speaker 7: if any possible case can be developed against them based
[15:58] Speaker 7: on the fact that the individual is an enemy of
[16:00] Speaker 7: the president or the administration.
[16:03] Speaker 2: Three of the people we've been talking about, Letitia James,
[16:07] Speaker 2: Adam Schiff, and James Comy are attorneys. In fact, call
[16:12] Speaker 2: Me was formerly the US attorney for Manhattan, but all
[16:16] Speaker 2: three have hired the lawyers to represent them. Explain what
[16:20] Speaker 2: goes into having to defend yourself before charges are brought,
[16:25] Speaker 2: and then once charges are brought, even if they're dismissed
[16:29] Speaker 2: early on, even.
[16:31] Speaker 7: If charges are ultimately dismissed, a person's life can be
[16:36] Speaker 7: made deeply difficult, uncomfortable, and their reputation can be ruined,
[16:41] Speaker 7: and they can incur ruining financial expense in having to
[16:46] Speaker 7: defend themselves against allegations that are just out in the
[16:50] Speaker 7: public even prior to indictment, and then post indictment. Reportedly,
[16:54] Speaker 7: the individuals who have been named in these investigations have
[16:58] Speaker 7: had to incur a great deal of expense in lawyer's
[17:02] Speaker 7: fees in responding to subpoenas, going through their own information
[17:06] Speaker 7: even before subpoena is issued, to see how they would
[17:10] Speaker 7: prepare a defense, how they would respond to subpoenas when
[17:13] Speaker 7: and if they are issued. So is financially an enormous
[17:16] Speaker 7: burden on an individual is just to be the subject
[17:19] Speaker 7: of an investigation. And because the way this administration has
[17:23] Speaker 7: been carrying out a public campaign of smearing the reputations
[17:27] Speaker 7: of people, which is so far outside the norm of
[17:30] Speaker 7: what prosecutors ordinarily do and are permitted to do under
[17:34] Speaker 7: ethics rules, the reputations of these individuals is just being
[17:38] Speaker 7: dragged through the mud. So we have an complete upending
[17:42] Speaker 7: of norms in terms of how the Department of Justice
[17:45] Speaker 7: and the President are going about carrying out a public
[17:48] Speaker 7: campaign against individuals even before they are charged, and setting
[17:53] Speaker 7: up a situation where so much is already in the
[17:56] Speaker 7: public domain, long before charges have been fought and may
[18:01] Speaker 7: never be filed.
[18:02] Speaker 2: I'm wondering what this kind of pressure does to attorneys
[18:07] Speaker 2: at the Justice department. There have been both a lot
[18:11] Speaker 2: of resignations and a lot of firings. What effect does
[18:15] Speaker 2: this kind of pressure have on the attorneys as they
[18:20] Speaker 2: do the everyday work.
[18:22] Speaker 7: This must be enormously demoralizing to attorneys who are still
[18:26] Speaker 7: working at the Department of Justice, who recognize these efforts
[18:31] Speaker 7: to investigate and prosecute individuals based on their political speech
[18:38] Speaker 7: and political affiliation, who recognize this as a tremendous departure
[18:44] Speaker 7: from not only prosecutorial norms of independence, but from the
[18:48] Speaker 7: rule of law. And the question is whether those individuals
[18:52] Speaker 7: who have stuck it out thus far at the Department
[18:55] Speaker 7: of Justice under President Trump will resign now or whether
[18:59] Speaker 7: they will wait and they are individually directed to charge
[19:03] Speaker 7: a person without sufficient evidence based on political motivations, and
[19:08] Speaker 7: who will be left because as difficult as it would
[19:12] Speaker 7: be to stay on in the Department of Justice that
[19:16] Speaker 7: is operating in this fashion, in a sense, we depend
[19:20] Speaker 7: on career prosecutors who do know what it takes to
[19:24] Speaker 7: build a case and what is required of them in
[19:26] Speaker 7: terms of professional norms and their professional ethical obligations. We
[19:30] Speaker 7: depend on them to be a bulwark against the president,
[19:33] Speaker 7: the Attorney General and against appointees who the President increasingly
[19:39] Speaker 7: puts into positions of authority as interim US attorneys, so
[19:44] Speaker 7: with ultimate authority over the decisions within an individual attorney's office.
[19:49] Speaker 7: People who have in many cases little to no experience
[19:53] Speaker 7: as prosecutors or even as criminal law attorneys, who have
[19:58] Speaker 7: ties to the pres and our loyalist to the president,
[20:02] Speaker 7: and dependent on the President for their careers. When those
[20:06] Speaker 7: people are in the highest positions in offices, we really
[20:10] Speaker 7: rely on the line prosecutors who have been trained in
[20:14] Speaker 7: professional norms and the law to do their jobs consistent
[20:19] Speaker 7: with their training and to serve as that bulwark. And
[20:22] Speaker 7: if those people are all forced out, either because they're
[20:25] Speaker 7: fired or because they resign because they can no longer
[20:28] Speaker 7: in good conscience, day than we are at a very
[20:31] Speaker 7: scary place.
[20:32] Speaker 2: It's great to get your insights, Jessica. That's Professor Jessica
[20:36] Speaker 2: Roth of Cardozo Law School. On New York Federal judge
[20:40] Speaker 2: says that at least two senior Justice Department officials probably
[20:45] Speaker 2: violated court rules by reposting comments that President Trump made
[20:50] Speaker 2: about Luigi Mangoni on Fox News on September eighteenthey.
[20:56] Speaker 3: He shot someone in the back, as clear as you're
[21:00] Speaker 3: looking at me or I'm looking at you. He looked
[21:04] Speaker 3: like a pure assassin. I was surprised, actually, you know,
[21:07] Speaker 3: you would have thought this guy would have been at
[21:09] Speaker 3: a central casting in the movie. And maybe he was.
[21:12] Speaker 3: But he think of what he did. He openly, it's
[21:16] Speaker 3: not like she does a question. If there's a question,
[21:18] Speaker 3: you can understand it, maybe, but there's not a question.
[21:22] Speaker 2: A video clip of Trump's remarks was posted on the
[21:26] Speaker 2: social platform x by the White House, and then reposted
[21:30] Speaker 2: by a Justice Department spokesperson who added the comment quote
[21:34] Speaker 2: at potus is absolutely right joining me is Bloomberg Legal
[21:38] Speaker 2: reporter Patricia Hurtado pat tell us about the warning the
[21:42] Speaker 2: judge gave the Justice Department, Well.
[21:45] Speaker 1: It comes on the heels of late Friday. Man Gioni's
[21:49] Speaker 1: lawyers asked the judge to dismiss the indictment or another
[21:53] Speaker 1: remedy would be two block prosecutors bringing the death penalty
[21:57] Speaker 1: against him in the federal case, arguing that the Attorney
[22:01] Speaker 1: General and so many people in the government have made
[22:04] Speaker 1: statements declaring him guilty. Pam Bonti put things on Twitter
[22:10] Speaker 1: and those kind of extraneous statements outside of court He
[22:14] Speaker 1: argued that they poisoned his potential jury pull and was
[22:18] Speaker 1: going to deprive him of a right to a fair trial,
[22:20] Speaker 1: especially when he's fighting the death penalty, which is such
[22:23] Speaker 1: an extraordinary penalty. And then the supplemental filing came in
[22:27] Speaker 1: night before last, and it was Mangion's lawyers complaining about
[22:31] Speaker 1: further comments made now by President Trump on Fox News.
[22:37] Speaker 1: Top DOJ officials retweeted, and White House officials, including Caroline Levitt,
[22:43] Speaker 1: the White House spokeswoman, basically declaring that Mangioni, who was
[22:47] Speaker 1: the killer, he was called an assassin, and they were
[22:51] Speaker 1: linking him to left wing extremists and suggesting he had
[22:55] Speaker 1: links to people like in antifa, anti fascist organizations, like
[23:00] Speaker 1: those that had carried out, you know, the killing of
[23:03] Speaker 1: They didn't mention Charlie Kirk by name, but they insinuated it,
[23:07] Speaker 1: and DOJ officials had retweeted comments made by the White House.
[23:12] Speaker 1: A White House official website put it out. Two DOJ
[23:15] Speaker 1: officials put it out as well as Caroline Levitt at
[23:19] Speaker 1: a press briefing that was televised also called him an assassin.
[23:23] Speaker 1: After that happens, Luigi's lawyers complained to get into the
[23:27] Speaker 1: judge saying, oh, here's further evidence, and this comes on
[23:30] Speaker 1: the heels of what we said on Friday.
[23:32] Speaker 2: Did the judge rule from the bench or did she
[23:34] Speaker 2: take some time to consider the defense's request within minutes.
[23:40] Speaker 1: The judge in the case, her name is Margaret Garnett,
[23:42] Speaker 1: she put in an ordered basically threatening that there could
[23:46] Speaker 1: be sanctions if anybody at DOJ continued to do this.
[23:50] Speaker 1: And she says it's the duty of the lawyer or
[23:52] Speaker 1: law firm and of non lawyer personnel to follow her rules.
[23:58] Speaker 1: And there's a local rule that you're not supposed to
[24:02] Speaker 1: poison or make comments about a defendant's guilt now that
[24:05] Speaker 1: the case is in the pre trial phase, and his
[24:08] Speaker 1: lawyers complained that it basically hampers and hinders their chances
[24:13] Speaker 1: of getting an untainted jury that can keep an open
[24:16] Speaker 1: mind about guilt or innocence. She was also suggesting that
[24:20] Speaker 1: it appears to include people like Attorney General Pam Bondi,
[24:25] Speaker 1: that they were aware and understood that they were bound
[24:29] Speaker 1: by this rule. She said, so she wanted a report
[24:32] Speaker 1: given to her, either from prosecutors in the office or
[24:35] Speaker 1: from dj to explain to her how they hadn't violated
[24:39] Speaker 1: the rule and to make sure that there was going
[24:41] Speaker 1: to be a dissemination of her rule, to make sure
[24:44] Speaker 1: everybody at DOJ understood what the rule was, don't violate it.
[24:48] Speaker 2: So now, the judge said that future violations may result
[24:53] Speaker 2: in sanctions which could include personal financial penalties, contempt of
[24:59] Speaker 2: court finding, or relief specific to the prosecution of this matter.
[25:04] Speaker 2: Could relief specific to the prosecution of this matter mean
[25:09] Speaker 2: precluding the federal government from seeking the death penalty or
[25:13] Speaker 2: even dismissing the federal charges.
[25:16] Speaker 1: Well, that's what the defense for Manngion argues that this
[25:20] Speaker 1: is making it impossible for him to get a fair
[25:23] Speaker 1: federal trial because, I mean, if you have the President
[25:26] Speaker 1: of the United States making comments on national television, you
[25:29] Speaker 1: wonder if your potential jury pool is going to be poisoned. Yes,
[25:32] Speaker 1: that's down the road, but if the ultimate penalty for
[25:35] Speaker 1: a murder conviction is the death penalty, you wonder if
[25:40] Speaker 1: somebody as important as the President of the United States,
[25:43] Speaker 1: as a White House spokeswoman are making comments, as well
[25:46] Speaker 1: as the Attorney General and top members of DOJ are
[25:50] Speaker 1: making comments about your guilt, you wonder about the chances
[25:53] Speaker 1: of getting a fair trial and that's what the defense
[25:56] Speaker 1: has argued. The ultimate penalty and sanction should be either
[25:59] Speaker 1: dismissal of the indictment or take the death penalty off
[26:03] Speaker 1: the table.
[26:03] Speaker 2: From Angel, what's the timeframe here? How long did the
[26:06] Speaker 2: judge give the Justice Department to come back with this.
[26:10] Speaker 1: She's basically wants to know by October third to have
[26:14] Speaker 1: have a response and a sworn declaration from somebody. And
[26:18] Speaker 1: she calls it suitable authority, and she named either the
[26:21] Speaker 1: chief of the Criminal Division in the Southern District or
[26:25] Speaker 1: another prosecutor in the Southern District. You know, one thing
[26:28] Speaker 1: to remember about all of this is that we've had
[26:31] Speaker 1: instances in the past where even a defendant on trial
[26:36] Speaker 1: in the middle of their trial has been ordered to
[26:38] Speaker 1: stop making public statements to the press. I mean, we
[26:42] Speaker 1: had Martin Screlly, who was not facing the death penalty
[26:45] Speaker 1: but just securities fraw charges, and he was on trial,
[26:48] Speaker 1: and he walked out and he started talking, and he would,
[26:52] Speaker 1: you know, make comments every time he left the courthouse,
[26:55] Speaker 1: and finally the judge was co concerned that he might
[26:58] Speaker 1: be saying something outside the courthouse front door that the
[27:01] Speaker 1: jurors might hear that you gave him a limit, like
[27:04] Speaker 1: a parameter of an electric fence, not to talk around
[27:08] Speaker 1: the courthouse perimeter. So I mean that's somebody they're on
[27:11] Speaker 1: trial and they're fighting for their life and their career,
[27:14] Speaker 1: but not fighting against the death penalty and a murder
[27:17] Speaker 1: conviction that could be life in prison without parole, and.
[27:21] Speaker 2: Asking to have the federal charges dismissed or the death
[27:24] Speaker 2: penalty taken off the table. One of the things man
[27:28] Speaker 2: Joni's lawyers brought up was the high publicity and that
[27:33] Speaker 2: purp walk that looked like it was staged on a
[27:36] Speaker 2: Hollywood movie set.
[27:39] Speaker 1: Well, they talk about the purp Walk. If you think
[27:42] Speaker 1: about how this case started and the shooting happens first
[27:46] Speaker 1: week of December. There's a five day man hunt, he's
[27:50] Speaker 1: arrested in Altuna, Pennsylvania, and then Mangione gets airlifted back
[27:55] Speaker 1: to New York in a helicopter. He gets brought off
[27:59] Speaker 1: to Hellpter and he's in shackles and he's surrounded by
[28:03] Speaker 1: a failanx of armed officers in technical gear. His lawyers
[28:08] Speaker 1: compared that to looking like something out of a Marvel movie.
[28:12] Speaker 1: You know that he's not some anti hero, evil villain.
[28:16] Speaker 1: He's a defendant to have a fair trial. But even
[28:19] Speaker 1: when he comes to court, they complain that he has
[28:22] Speaker 1: been produced shackled. He's wearing what they call a three
[28:25] Speaker 1: piece suit by federal marshals, and that means you've got
[28:29] Speaker 1: a belt around your waist that's leather with chains like
[28:33] Speaker 1: Marley's Ghost, you have shackles around your ankles. And he
[28:36] Speaker 1: gets brought in like this, and at some points he's
[28:39] Speaker 1: been wearing like a flak jacket on top of that,
[28:42] Speaker 1: and his lawyers have said, why can't he wear street clothes.
[28:45] Speaker 1: Other defendants are allowed to come to court and street clothes.
[28:48] Speaker 2: And also they're claiming that Bondy rushed the decision to
[28:53] Speaker 2: seek the death penalty and didn't use the protocol that
[28:58] Speaker 2: prior administrations have used to assess whether there should be
[29:01] Speaker 2: capital murder charges.
[29:03] Speaker 1: They're alleging that early on in the waning days of
[29:06] Speaker 1: the Biden administration, manngi Own's lawyers tried to meet with
[29:09] Speaker 1: DOJ and the pros Aligned prosecutors from Manhattan FED and
[29:14] Speaker 1: that they were told they had to wait and they
[29:16] Speaker 1: were basically put off until the Trump administration takes over.
[29:21] Speaker 1: I've covered other federal death penalty cases, there's typically a
[29:24] Speaker 1: procedure that takes months that called the death panel, and
[29:28] Speaker 1: basically the defense lawyers are allowed to go down and
[29:32] Speaker 1: main justice and make a presentation to argue mitigating factors
[29:36] Speaker 1: why it's not a good idea to seek the death penalty,
[29:39] Speaker 1: or why the death penalty is not appropriate for their
[29:41] Speaker 1: client's case, for example, if they have a history of
[29:44] Speaker 1: being abused as a child, or some kind of psychiatric
[29:47] Speaker 1: problem or some kind of health issue or something, and
[29:51] Speaker 1: they're allowed to bring the mitigating factors to the government's
[29:55] Speaker 1: attention so that DOJ may decide, Okay, the death penalty
[29:59] Speaker 1: doesn't seem a appropriate for this case. They argue this
[30:02] Speaker 1: was never done, they were never allowed to, and that
[30:05] Speaker 1: the DOJ with Pambondi automatically leapfrogged, basically jettisoned any kind
[30:11] Speaker 1: of panel hearing or any mitigating factors hearing, and decided
[30:15] Speaker 1: on her own, without anybody's input and without hearing from
[30:18] Speaker 1: the defense, to just go ahead and seek the death penalty.
[30:21] Speaker 1: So it was a set of complay. According to the defense, what's.
[30:24] Speaker 2: The next thing that will happen in these cases?
[30:27] Speaker 1: Well, the next thing that we are waiting for is
[30:30] Speaker 1: man Gioni's lawyers are supposed to by next week tell
[30:34] Speaker 1: the court whether or not they're going to in the
[30:37] Speaker 1: state case and try to put a psychiatric defense up.
[30:41] Speaker 1: So these are dual cases, and the judge in the
[30:43] Speaker 1: state case made ruling last week where his lawyers had
[30:48] Speaker 1: argued this was unfair, it was double jeopardy. In their assessment,
[30:52] Speaker 1: they said that having to defend himself in a state
[30:55] Speaker 1: murder case as well at the same time also fighting
[30:59] Speaker 1: a federal death penalty case was unfair and amounted to
[31:03] Speaker 1: double jeopardy. The judge in the state case ruled that
[31:06] Speaker 1: he thought it was too early because the Feds haven't
[31:09] Speaker 1: started their case. I mean, technically the prosecution is pending,
[31:13] Speaker 1: but there isn't any trial, So in the date judges assessment,
[31:16] Speaker 1: it wasn't a double jeopardy problem. It does seem to be, though,
[31:20] Speaker 1: quind of tough, because there's duly front for Maggione.
[31:24] Speaker 2: And we should point out that while double jeopardy prevents
[31:27] Speaker 2: a person from being prosecuted twice for the same offense,
[31:32] Speaker 2: the dual sofe running doctrine allows separate state and federal
[31:37] Speaker 2: prosecutions for the same conduct.
[31:40] Speaker 1: The other thing that Mangione's defense has argued is in
[31:43] Speaker 1: cases like if I don't know our listeners, remember that
[31:46] Speaker 1: there was a gentleman named Sepos and he was accused
[31:51] Speaker 1: of mowing down pedestrians on a bike path in Lower
[31:54] Speaker 1: Manhattan and he ran them down and killed people and
[31:59] Speaker 1: was convicted. But there was a steakcase and a federal case,
[32:03] Speaker 1: and there was a time lag between the statecase and
[32:06] Speaker 1: the federal case, so they weren't proceeding on parallel front
[32:09] Speaker 1: sets simultaneously, which is what Luigi Mangiones lawyers are saying
[32:13] Speaker 1: is happening to their clients that.
[32:15] Speaker 2: Might prove to be an uphill battle. Thanks so much, Pat.
[32:18] Speaker 2: That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Patricia Hurtado, and that's it for
[32:21] Speaker 2: this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can
[32:24] Speaker 2: always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast.
[32:28] Speaker 2: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at
[32:31] Speaker 2: www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, and
[32:36] Speaker 2: remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight
[32:39] Speaker 2: at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and
[32:43] Speaker 2: you're listening to Bloomberg

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