# Navy SEAL Jeff Gonzales on What Most Firearms Instructors Get Wrong

An episode of [Gun Talk](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/190516844), 19 Aug 2026, 37 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/74332239/gtnation_0307_jeffgonzales_final.mp3

CZ Firearms’ Jeff Gonzales didn't build Trident Concepts on wins. He built it on the students he lost. The former Navy SEAL and 25-year training veteran joins Ryan Gresham for a raw, honest conversation about what separates real instructors from chest-thumpers, why drawing faster isn't the answer, and why situational awareness will save your life long before your trigger finger does. If you carry a gun, this one matters. This Gun Talk Nation is brought to you by Ruger, Leupold, Colt, Shooting Sports Life, Remington Ammunition, and Range Ready Studios. About Gun Talk Nation Gun Talk Media's Gun Talk Nation with Ryan Gresham is a weekly multi-platform podcast that offers a fresh look at all things firearms-related. Featuring notable guests and a lot of laughs. Gun Talk Nation is available as an audio podcast or in video format. For more content from Gun Talk Media, visit guntalk.com or subscribe on YouTube, Rumble, Facebook, Instagram, and X. Catch First Person Defender on the new Official FPD YouTube channel. Watch Gun Talk Nation on its new YouTube channel. Catch Gun Talk Hunt on the new dedicated YouTube Channel. Listen to all Gun Talk Podcasts with Spreaker, iHeart, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you find podcasts. Copyright ©2026 Freefire Media, LLC Gun Talk Nation 08.19.26 Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: There are a lot of people that talk about how
[0:01] Speaker 1: many students they've trained that have had successful wins and whatnot,
[0:05] Speaker 1: and I think that's great and that's the way that
[0:08] Speaker 1: they can accept acknowledgment. But to me, it was losing
[0:12] Speaker 1: students and both military, law enforcement and private citizens.
[0:15] Speaker 2: Over the years that has really made that.
[0:18] Speaker 1: Such an important thing to me because I have to
[0:21] Speaker 1: reconcile with myself, did I do the very best that
[0:23] Speaker 1: I can.
[0:28] Speaker 3: I'm Ryan Gresham and this this is Guntognation. Guntognation is
[0:43] Speaker 3: brought to you by Ruger Loophold, Range, Ready, Cult, Shooting,
[0:49] Speaker 3: Sports Life and Ready to the ammunition.
[0:52] Speaker 4: Hey, welcome in to Guntognation. Today.
[0:54] Speaker 3: On Guntognation, we've got a guy that you may have
[0:57] Speaker 3: heard from, you may have seen around, Jeff Gonzalez.
[1:00] Speaker 4: Jeff, welcome in, man.
[1:01] Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you so much. I'm so excited to
[1:03] Speaker 2: be here.
[1:03] Speaker 3: Tried in concepts you do training you were in as
[1:07] Speaker 3: like you guys like to say.
[1:08] Speaker 4: I was in the Navy.
[1:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was in the Navy.
[1:10] Speaker 4: Well wait a minute, how much were you in the Navy?
[1:13] Speaker 2: Well a lot of a fair amount.
[1:15] Speaker 1: So I always joke about this, Like I've said this
[1:18] Speaker 1: kind of part of my you know, my my profession
[1:21] Speaker 1: for so many years, it's kind of normal for me
[1:23] Speaker 1: to just kind.
[1:24] Speaker 2: Of spit it out so quickly that people are like, what.
[1:26] Speaker 1: So the way I always say it is like, you know,
[1:29] Speaker 1: my background comes from naval special warfare. Spent the better
[1:31] Speaker 1: half of my adult life on the East Coast the
[1:33] Speaker 1: West Coast as an operator, as an assaulter, and an instructor.
[1:36] Speaker 2: And you know that I did that for the better
[1:39] Speaker 2: half of my adult life, and people are like, what
[1:41] Speaker 2: does that mean? Like I was a seal.
[1:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's like one of those things that I
[1:45] Speaker 1: tried not to like lead with that, but it seems
[1:48] Speaker 1: like that's the only way that people really associate it.
[1:51] Speaker 3: So it seems like and I'm not in that world necessarily,
[1:53] Speaker 3: but it seems like you kind of have, Like you
[1:56] Speaker 3: have some of the guys who were in that world,
[2:00] Speaker 3: the teams, and they tell a lot of people, and
[2:04] Speaker 3: then there's like the other half that don't they try
[2:06] Speaker 3: not to tell a lot of people.
[2:07] Speaker 4: True, I don't know, like how does that work?
[2:11] Speaker 1: So my generation and I can say that because I'm
[2:13] Speaker 1: old enough now, you know, we really it was a
[2:17] Speaker 1: culture where we were very tight knit and we didn't
[2:20] Speaker 1: really share a lot of things. So when I left
[2:22] Speaker 1: the Navy, I still maintained that kind of to a
[2:25] Speaker 1: certain degree.
[2:26] Speaker 2: I wasn't very flashy about it.
[2:28] Speaker 1: I would only tell people when I felt like I
[2:30] Speaker 1: needed to say it or had to say it, or
[2:32] Speaker 1: sometimes somebody would introduce me as that person and then
[2:35] Speaker 1: I would have to kind of give the backstory. And
[2:38] Speaker 1: I did that because, you know, one of the things
[2:41] Speaker 1: that I was taught as from a very young frog
[2:44] Speaker 1: man age was that I was an ambassador. I represented
[2:47] Speaker 1: the community, I represented the Navy, I represent our country,
[2:49] Speaker 1: and you wanted to do it in a very professional way,
[2:52] Speaker 1: and we didn't do it by going out and saying
[2:53] Speaker 1: what we did.
[2:55] Speaker 2: So I don't I don't bash.
[2:58] Speaker 1: Guys that do that now because I think it's a
[3:00] Speaker 1: different time It's you know, just a different period of time.
[3:03] Speaker 2: If you will. But it's it also very strange for
[3:06] Speaker 2: me to see that.
[3:07] Speaker 1: I kind of like sometimes like my hackles go up
[3:09] Speaker 1: and I'm like, WHOA, Like, it's it's a different time period.
[3:12] Speaker 1: I kind of take it all in. So it is different.
[3:15] Speaker 1: It is different, that's for sure.
[3:16] Speaker 3: So you do training, your work you're here doing stuff
[3:21] Speaker 3: with cz.
[3:22] Speaker 4: You work with a variety of companies law enforcement.
[3:27] Speaker 3: Sometimes we say just because someone's law enforcement doesn't mean
[3:30] Speaker 3: they're a gun they're into guns.
[3:32] Speaker 4: Or they're like a really good shooter. There are ones
[3:36] Speaker 4: that are right.
[3:38] Speaker 3: What about in the military, maybe specifically in your world
[3:42] Speaker 3: of you know, so calm world, is it is it
[3:46] Speaker 3: like a given that people are gun people and good
[3:49] Speaker 3: shooters are not necessarily what you what have you found?
[3:52] Speaker 1: So it first, that's a great it's a great question
[3:55] Speaker 1: because I think there is a very similar framework that
[3:57] Speaker 1: what you see in law enforcement.
[3:59] Speaker 2: And my experience and the platoons that.
[4:01] Speaker 1: I did, there were guys that very strongly gravitated towards
[4:05] Speaker 1: the shooting aspect, and then there were guys that gravitated
[4:08] Speaker 1: towards other aspects.
[4:09] Speaker 2: It just really depended.
[4:11] Speaker 1: There is a baseline standard that everybody has to meet,
[4:13] Speaker 1: and I happen.
[4:14] Speaker 2: To believe that it's a good one. I think it's
[4:16] Speaker 2: a strong one.
[4:17] Speaker 1: But then we're once you once you meet that baseline standard,
[4:22] Speaker 1: you're expected to maintain that on your own. You still
[4:24] Speaker 1: go to training, you still go shooting courses, and you
[4:27] Speaker 1: still do all that other stuff. But you are expected
[4:29] Speaker 1: to maintain that as a professional development skill. So some
[4:33] Speaker 1: guys really lean into that and they do a lot
[4:36] Speaker 1: of extra work, and other guys just do what is
[4:39] Speaker 1: necessary because they're.
[4:40] Speaker 2: Doing work in other areas. So it just really depends.
[4:43] Speaker 1: But one of the things that I found was very
[4:47] Speaker 1: fortunate for me was I always found myself into platoons
[4:50] Speaker 1: that had a maybe above average group of guys that
[4:54] Speaker 1: actually gravitated towards the shooting. So I was very fortunate
[4:57] Speaker 1: that was kind of like my pathway. I always kind
[4:59] Speaker 1: of went from one a tune to another that always
[5:01] Speaker 1: had that strong shooting, you know, like culture.
[5:05] Speaker 4: Well that's got to motivate each other.
[5:07] Speaker 3: Right, Oh my goods, nice way to say it.
[5:12] Speaker 2: Very well, yes, there was.
[5:15] Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because we joke about this, you know,
[5:16] Speaker 1: what's the most what's the most dangerous weapon in the world,
[5:19] Speaker 1: And we used to joke, it's a bored frogman. So
[5:22] Speaker 1: we would find ways to compete against each other that
[5:25] Speaker 1: made no sense.
[5:26] Speaker 4: Whatso tell me about it.
[5:28] Speaker 2: The funniest one.
[5:29] Speaker 1: Was unloading, Like you know, how we get a case
[5:32] Speaker 1: of Ammo comes in, you know, wooden crate and there's
[5:34] Speaker 1: two cans of Ammo, and so we would get into
[5:38] Speaker 1: a race to see who could empty the boxes into
[5:41] Speaker 1: the Ammo cans the fastest.
[5:43] Speaker 2: I'm not kidding.
[5:44] Speaker 1: We would sit there and break open the can, break
[5:46] Speaker 1: open the crate rather and you'd look at a guy.
[5:48] Speaker 2: He'd have one Ammo can.
[5:50] Speaker 1: I'd have the other Ammo can, and as soon as
[5:52] Speaker 1: the Ammo can hit the ground, it was on and
[5:54] Speaker 1: you were just like, it's just like it was like
[5:55] Speaker 1: a frenzy. You just see boxes flying everywhere, the styrofoam's
[5:58] Speaker 1: going and you're just trying to get as many boxes
[6:00] Speaker 1: in there, just trying to you'd look over and see him,
[6:02] Speaker 1: he's like one box ahead of me or whatever.
[6:05] Speaker 2: I'm not kidding. Everything was a race. Everything is a competition.
[6:09] Speaker 2: It didn't matter what it was, it was always a race.
[6:11] Speaker 3: I was with a couple guys who in that in
[6:14] Speaker 3: that world go places and do things, and we were
[6:17] Speaker 3: at just some like shooting event, and one guy.
[6:21] Speaker 4: Says, I need to go take a leak in the
[6:22] Speaker 4: porta potty. Yeah, and the other guy goes race you.
[6:25] Speaker 3: They literally ran into two porta potties side by side
[6:28] Speaker 3: in a racing.
[6:28] Speaker 1: I'm not surprised taking a weak I'm not surprised at all.
[6:31] Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, we did some stuff that
[6:33] Speaker 1: just made no sense, but it was like that.
[6:35] Speaker 2: It was such a that's that is.
[6:38] Speaker 1: That perfectly personifies what it means to be in that
[6:41] Speaker 1: type of culture where you are constantly and and some
[6:45] Speaker 1: people will look at that and say, well, man, it's terrible.
[6:48] Speaker 1: It's that's a horrible thing, and I'm like, no, it's
[6:50] Speaker 1: absolutely not. It's a it's a great thing because it
[6:53] Speaker 1: drives you to try to be better.
[6:56] Speaker 2: We have this.
[6:57] Speaker 1: Within within the sealed teams and within the military in general.
[7:00] Speaker 1: Like you see us given crap to the army, the
[7:03] Speaker 1: army gives us crap. The Army Navy game my favorite.
[7:05] Speaker 1: I love that right, It's a perfect example.
[7:07] Speaker 2: But what that does is it drives us to be better.
[7:10] Speaker 2: M it drives it Like I.
[7:12] Speaker 1: Lost the last one, but I'm not gonna lose this
[7:14] Speaker 1: next one. You know, it kind of you dig a
[7:17] Speaker 1: little deeper. You find ways to try to either get
[7:19] Speaker 1: better at the skill that you're good at or get
[7:21] Speaker 1: better at the skill.
[7:22] Speaker 2: That you're not good at. You just there's always this
[7:24] Speaker 2: driving force.
[7:25] Speaker 1: And it's so unique because I don't see it in
[7:27] Speaker 1: many other areas that I frequent.
[7:30] Speaker 2: It's just it's unique to that setting.
[7:32] Speaker 1: And I don't know why per se, but you know,
[7:35] Speaker 1: the guys that are typically gravitated towards that type of
[7:37] Speaker 1: special operations field typically have that as a genetic disposition,
[7:44] Speaker 1: genetic disorder.
[7:45] Speaker 2: You can look at it way too. It could fluctuate
[7:49] Speaker 2: either way.
[7:50] Speaker 3: Well there's you know, we know competition can can motivate
[7:53] Speaker 3: people right, absolutely mean even like shame right, I'm gonna
[7:57] Speaker 3: shame you into this, like and using aim as.
[8:02] Speaker 4: In the good goal.
[8:04] Speaker 2: It's funny because.
[8:07] Speaker 1: When I look at some of the things that I
[8:09] Speaker 1: wasn't good at, there were things that I really didn't
[8:13] Speaker 1: want to be good at until it became a competition,
[8:17] Speaker 1: and then I had to get good at it because
[8:19] Speaker 1: it was just like one of my areas that I
[8:22] Speaker 1: really sucked at was anything that had.
[8:23] Speaker 2: To do with comms communications. And eventually I got into
[8:28] Speaker 2: a platoon where.
[8:30] Speaker 1: Somehow or another, the gauntlet got thrown down I had
[8:32] Speaker 1: to do with calms, and I'm like, okay, I now
[8:35] Speaker 1: need to get better at this. And I ended up
[8:37] Speaker 1: going to calms school and I ended up trying to
[8:38] Speaker 1: figure it out and he still beat me even though
[8:41] Speaker 1: he I mean, he was really talented at that. That
[8:44] Speaker 1: was one of those areas that some people just really
[8:46] Speaker 1: go down and get really good at. Well, this was
[8:48] Speaker 1: an area that he had gotten really good at, and I,
[8:51] Speaker 1: in my infinite wisdom, thought I could actually match that.
[8:54] Speaker 1: But the thing that what it did for me was
[8:57] Speaker 1: it brought up that game, which was a huge deficit
[8:59] Speaker 1: for me. Is so important to us that it wasn't
[9:03] Speaker 1: a bad thing was it didn't beat him. He continued
[9:06] Speaker 1: to smack down on me everywhere we went. But the
[9:09] Speaker 1: bottom line was that it definitely helped me to improve
[9:12] Speaker 1: an area that I would consider it was a weakness.
[9:15] Speaker 4: How much did you guys shoot?
[9:18] Speaker 1: Well back in the day, I can tell you that
[9:21] Speaker 1: we shot a lot. There would be times at the
[9:25] Speaker 1: end of the week, like on a Friday, we would
[9:26] Speaker 1: go to the armory because I so most of my
[9:30] Speaker 1: time on the operational side was spent on the East Coast,
[9:33] Speaker 1: and we used to have a contract with a local
[9:36] Speaker 1: indoor range that was right there in the Virginia Beach area,
[9:40] Speaker 1: and so we could go there and shoot for free.
[9:43] Speaker 1: We didn't have to pay for anything. And what we
[9:45] Speaker 1: would do is we would just go to the armory
[9:47] Speaker 1: and just grab ammo. And when I say grab ammo,
[9:50] Speaker 1: we would grab like cans or cases and we.
[9:53] Speaker 2: Would just go and shoot. And there were times when man.
[9:58] Speaker 1: You just I don't even I don't I think I
[10:00] Speaker 1: ever really calculated how Much's funny, it wasn't until recently
[10:05] Speaker 1: that I tried to put a number on how many
[10:07] Speaker 1: rounds I fired in my lifetime. And I was talking
[10:09] Speaker 1: to an individual who will remain nameless, but his first
[10:13] Speaker 1: name is Eric, and we were talking and he's like, so,
[10:16] Speaker 1: how many rouns.
[10:17] Speaker 2: Do you think you've fired in your lifetime? And I'm like,
[10:19] Speaker 2: that's a good question.
[10:20] Speaker 1: And I try to really do math really fast, and
[10:22] Speaker 1: I put up I put up a big number and
[10:24] Speaker 1: I'm like, I.
[10:24] Speaker 2: Think this is a good number. And he's like hmm,
[10:27] Speaker 2: and I'm like why, Like.
[10:29] Speaker 1: I said, like about maybe about one point one one
[10:32] Speaker 1: point two million, and.
[10:33] Speaker 2: He's like, hmm, got about ten million?
[10:37] Speaker 4: Really?
[10:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, ericrafell So he was, oh, Eric, but he's tracking it.
[10:42] Speaker 4: Yeah, I know exact. It's like a fairly accurate number.
[10:45] Speaker 1: He's he said, like he gave me some rundowns on
[10:47] Speaker 1: his am account and how he came to and I'm
[10:49] Speaker 1: just like, at that point, you're just like, hmmm, here
[10:53] Speaker 1: I was thinking, Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good, and then
[10:55] Speaker 1: you look at that. So thanks to Eric, I was
[10:58] Speaker 1: able to kind of start to put some numbers to
[11:00] Speaker 1: But you know, obviously not everybody shoots as much or
[11:03] Speaker 1: has that same inclination to want to keep shooting, but
[11:06] Speaker 1: or has the opportunities such as Eric to keep shooting.
[11:08] Speaker 1: But yeah, it's been one of those things where I
[11:11] Speaker 1: was very fortunate to shoot a lot both. I was
[11:14] Speaker 1: encouraged to shoot obviously the Navy because what I always
[11:16] Speaker 1: tell people is our job at the end of the
[11:18] Speaker 1: day we might jump into place, we might swim in
[11:20] Speaker 1: a place, we might roll into a place, but our
[11:22] Speaker 1: job at the end of the day is to find, fix,
[11:24] Speaker 1: and finish the enemy.
[11:25] Speaker 2: And we do that.
[11:25] Speaker 1: Best with guns, sometimes bombs, but really best with guns.
[11:29] Speaker 1: So it made sense to me as a young frogman
[11:32] Speaker 1: that I needed to really get good at this because
[11:34] Speaker 1: this is what was going to complete the mission.
[11:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's kind of how I looked at it.
[11:41] Speaker 3: The Ruger LCP Max is still one of the most
[11:44] Speaker 3: popular pocket sized personal protection pistols and they just made
[11:48] Speaker 3: it better with the Magpole Enhanced handgun grip. So this
[11:51] Speaker 3: one is the LCP Max with Magpole EHG. Has nice texture,
[11:56] Speaker 3: has a little bit bigger grip module on it. You
[11:59] Speaker 3: can get a little bit more grip on the gun.
[12:02] Speaker 3: Has a thirteen round magazine also a ten round magazine,
[12:06] Speaker 3: so it just had been enhanced a bit. Still small,
[12:09] Speaker 3: still easy to shoot, and still very reliable as a Ruger,
[12:14] Speaker 3: So go check it out. The Ruger LCP Max with
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[12:35] Speaker 3: in noise sensitive areas, tactical training, or just a day
[12:38] Speaker 3: of plinking. The reduced velocity also minimizes recoil, offering better
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[12:46] Speaker 3: situations where stealth and accuracy are paramount. See more on
[12:50] Speaker 3: Remington's website on Subsonic ammunition from Big Green. What if
[12:55] Speaker 3: you could be significantly better with your firearms in a
[12:58] Speaker 3: short time. At Range Studios, we offer handgun and rifle
[13:02] Speaker 3: classes to help you be the best you can be.
[13:05] Speaker 3: You'll be safer, more competent, and just better at the range.
[13:08] Speaker 3: We also offer special experience classes which include the gun,
[13:12] Speaker 3: the AMMO, the gear, and the training. Learn more at
[13:16] Speaker 3: range ready studios dot com. So, Jeff, try it concepts.
[13:21] Speaker 3: Tell me about what you guys.
[13:22] Speaker 2: Do with try it So.
[13:24] Speaker 1: We are a nationally recognized training company. We work with
[13:27] Speaker 1: both law enforcement, military and the private citizen. So we've
[13:31] Speaker 1: been very fortunate. We're coming up on almost twenty five years. Yeah,
[13:36] Speaker 1: I know it's crazy to think that, but yeah, we
[13:38] Speaker 1: have been doing this for a really really long time.
[13:40] Speaker 1: I was fortunate that when I started the company there
[13:43] Speaker 1: weren't a lot of training companies, and then the GWATT
[13:46] Speaker 1: kicks off, and so we were really really busy doing
[13:50] Speaker 1: most of our early I would say like the first
[13:53] Speaker 1: seven to eight years was all in support of the
[13:56] Speaker 1: g WAT and then we started to kind of move
[13:58] Speaker 1: away from not move away from it, but then we
[14:00] Speaker 1: started to gain attention and popularity with law enforcement, and
[14:05] Speaker 1: then we really worked heavily with law enforcement, and then
[14:07] Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we also gained a good following
[14:10] Speaker 1: within the private citizens sector, and that became the next
[14:14] Speaker 1: kind of like evolution, if you will. And now we
[14:17] Speaker 1: just kind of we work between all three of them.
[14:19] Speaker 1: We kind of facilitate whichever organization or unit department needs us.
[14:27] Speaker 2: We just try to make ourselves available to them.
[14:29] Speaker 3: What do you think has changed over that time, because
[14:31] Speaker 3: that's a pretty long time period of training and dealing
[14:35] Speaker 3: with both civilians and military law enforcement.
[14:39] Speaker 1: Another great question, and there's like two ways to look
[14:43] Speaker 1: at it, like equipment technology and then training. We've seen
[14:49] Speaker 1: so much change technologically, I mean the biggest probably the
[14:54] Speaker 1: biggest thing would be the introduction the assimilation.
[14:57] Speaker 2: Of red dots on handguns. Big thing.
[15:00] Speaker 1: In fact, I was talking to one of the guys
[15:02] Speaker 1: that's here and he brought up an article that I
[15:04] Speaker 1: wrote for Swap magazine back in twenty twelve, and that
[15:08] Speaker 1: was after playing with them for a year or two.
[15:10] Speaker 1: So I'm like, wow, they've been around for a while.
[15:12] Speaker 1: We've really been using them pretty extensively. So I've seen
[15:16] Speaker 1: that really make its mark, and it's a good thing.
[15:19] Speaker 2: It's a really good thing. Training.
[15:22] Speaker 1: I think training is a harder nut to crack because
[15:25] Speaker 1: everybody thinks they have the solution, and I always always joke,
[15:28] Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, the bullet comes out the barrel the
[15:30] Speaker 1: same way. It's really how you choose to connect with
[15:34] Speaker 1: the student, which is I think where we're seeing a
[15:37] Speaker 1: little bit of change.
[15:38] Speaker 2: Folks. Instructors are now realizing that.
[15:40] Speaker 1: You know what, you could have been an amazing assaulter,
[15:44] Speaker 1: and you could have done great work overseas, but if
[15:47] Speaker 1: you can't translate that into something that is easily digestible
[15:53] Speaker 1: by the student body, then it really doesn't matter, unfortunately,
[15:58] Speaker 1: and so I think in today's day you still see
[16:01] Speaker 1: a lot of the chest thump being of sorts, but
[16:04] Speaker 1: I think more and more instructors are starting to figure
[16:06] Speaker 1: out that their best I guess delivery method is how
[16:11] Speaker 1: well they can actually connect with the student. And that's
[16:13] Speaker 1: one of the things that I always try to tell
[16:14] Speaker 1: our people in our instructor level classes is that if
[16:17] Speaker 1: you can't gain the trust of the student, then you're
[16:19] Speaker 1: not a good instructor.
[16:20] Speaker 2: That's the most important thing.
[16:22] Speaker 3: Chris says, I people don't care how much you know
[16:25] Speaker 3: until they know how much you care.
[16:27] Speaker 1: That's a great it's a fantastic thing because what I
[16:31] Speaker 1: sometimes have I'm at odds with This is a funny
[16:33] Speaker 1: conversation because sometimes I'm at odds with our industry because
[16:37] Speaker 1: we have no real governing body.
[16:38] Speaker 2: There's no oversight. Everybody's oh yeah, doing their own thing.
[16:42] Speaker 1: And sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad. But where
[16:44] Speaker 1: I feel it's bad is that you know we don't.
[16:49] Speaker 1: The most important thing is that you like, I'm all
[16:53] Speaker 1: over the place here because this is a really important
[16:55] Speaker 1: topic to me. But I think the hardest part that
[16:58] Speaker 1: you have as an instructor is the acceptance in the
[17:02] Speaker 1: responsibility that you are providing information that somebody is going
[17:05] Speaker 1: to have to use in a very dangerous and deadly encounter,
[17:10] Speaker 1: and they're going to take this information and hopefully it
[17:13] Speaker 1: works and they survive.
[17:15] Speaker 2: And so what I try to tell up and coming.
[17:16] Speaker 1: Instructors is until you've had a really honest conversation with
[17:19] Speaker 1: yourself and can actually say, Okay, I'm willing to make
[17:23] Speaker 1: that investment. I'm willing to give the student everything that
[17:26] Speaker 1: I have, knowing that this may be what saves their life.
[17:30] Speaker 1: If you're not willing to make that investment, then don't
[17:32] Speaker 1: do it. Don't be involved in here, because now you're
[17:34] Speaker 1: not really doing it for the right reasons.
[17:36] Speaker 2: The students deserve.
[17:38] Speaker 1: To have that level of commitment, that level of investment
[17:42] Speaker 1: because there is so much writing. I can remember the
[17:44] Speaker 1: first time I got a call from a student who
[17:48] Speaker 1: survived a gunfight, and that you know, there used to
[17:50] Speaker 1: be a time and a place.
[17:51] Speaker 2: Where I was that was very important to me.
[17:55] Speaker 1: Until I got the first call of a student who
[17:57] Speaker 1: didn't survive a gunfight.
[17:58] Speaker 2: Oh wow, And.
[17:59] Speaker 1: So, like I tell it, instructors, hey, until you're you
[18:04] Speaker 1: have to recognize that if you don't do the best
[18:07] Speaker 1: that you can possibly do, then the student may not
[18:10] Speaker 1: survive their gunfight.
[18:11] Speaker 2: And until it was and I've lost.
[18:13] Speaker 1: There are a lot of people that talk about how
[18:15] Speaker 1: many students they've trained that have had successful wins and whatnot,
[18:19] Speaker 1: and I think that's great and that's the way that
[18:21] Speaker 1: they can accept acknowledgment. But to me, it was losing
[18:25] Speaker 1: students and both military, law enforcement and private citizens over
[18:29] Speaker 1: the years that has really made that such an important
[18:32] Speaker 1: thing to me because I have to reconcile with myself,
[18:36] Speaker 1: did I do the very best that I can or
[18:38] Speaker 1: could at that time? And am I still doing the
[18:40] Speaker 1: very best that I can to ensure that they have
[18:43] Speaker 1: the best tools to survive that deadly dangerous encounter. And
[18:47] Speaker 1: so if you're not willing to do that, if you're
[18:49] Speaker 1: not willing to accept that responsibility, then this is not the.
[18:51] Speaker 2: Right job for you. And that is where I think
[18:53] Speaker 2: that industry has kind of lost its way.
[18:55] Speaker 1: Sometimes they look at this position, this job, this profession
[19:00] Speaker 1: as you know, what's the word that might appeal to it, like,
[19:04] Speaker 1: it's sexy, it's cool, it's it's you know, it's it's
[19:08] Speaker 1: it's very tactical, and those all may be true. But
[19:12] Speaker 1: if that's the reason why you're doing this job, then
[19:14] Speaker 1: you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
[19:16] Speaker 3: Well, and like you said, there's this is you're a teacher, right,
[19:20] Speaker 3: you know, if all these people who teach firearms classes,
[19:23] Speaker 3: you have to be a teacher. And also I try
[19:25] Speaker 3: to remind people sometimes like a lot of the the
[19:29] Speaker 3: regular civilians, regular Joe's and Jane's.
[19:35] Speaker 4: They aren't a recruit. Yeah, they don't have to be here.
[19:38] Speaker 3: They're literally spending their hard and earned dollars, their disposable
[19:42] Speaker 3: income and time and vacation days to come do a
[19:45] Speaker 3: multi day class. So it's like, you know, at the
[19:47] Speaker 3: same time, like you can be on them and don't
[19:50] Speaker 3: let them get away with stuff because you care about what.
[19:53] Speaker 4: Could happen once they leave here.
[19:55] Speaker 3: However, like, yeah, they're you know the whole like beating
[19:58] Speaker 3: your chest, you know, like we're all tactical bros.
[20:02] Speaker 4: Not always the case.
[20:03] Speaker 2: Well, it's certainly. I think it's I think more.
[20:05] Speaker 1: And more students are becoming self aware of that. I
[20:07] Speaker 1: think they're starting to recognize that, and I think that's
[20:11] Speaker 1: hopefully something good that comes from it, you know, and
[20:13] Speaker 1: it's a it's a capitalistic market, so hopefully, you know,
[20:16] Speaker 1: those folks that do a good job continue to see
[20:20] Speaker 1: the interest from students that recognize, this is the type
[20:22] Speaker 1: of trainer that I want to be with. This is
[20:25] Speaker 1: who I think can help guide me on my journey
[20:28] Speaker 1: and where I want to be. And it's it's a
[20:31] Speaker 1: great journey. I think it's a fantastic thing. You know,
[20:33] Speaker 1: whether whether you intend on ever using your handgun or
[20:37] Speaker 1: defensive tools in a deadly force encounter, it's there's still something,
[20:42] Speaker 1: there's really something that's appealing to many people, which.
[20:45] Speaker 2: Is it's a skill that is an elusive skill. It's
[20:48] Speaker 2: not it's simple, but it's not.
[20:50] Speaker 1: Easy, and so I think there's a lot of people
[20:52] Speaker 1: that really can gravitate towards that. And and so you
[20:55] Speaker 1: have to also have the building block process to be
[20:57] Speaker 1: able to get students that really have no no understanding
[21:00] Speaker 1: of how this firearm works, to be able to be
[21:03] Speaker 1: competent enough to not injure themselves. But also you want
[21:07] Speaker 1: to spark that that interest.
[21:10] Speaker 2: That kind of like desire. Wow, I like this, I
[21:14] Speaker 2: can get good at that.
[21:15] Speaker 1: I can see myself being good at this, And that
[21:17] Speaker 1: to me is like the secret sauce. If I can
[21:20] Speaker 1: I can kind of like just stoke that ember, then
[21:24] Speaker 1: the student will then become they'll become their own teacher.
[21:28] Speaker 1: And that's my goal. My goal is to put myself
[21:30] Speaker 1: out of a job. My goal is to give a
[21:32] Speaker 1: student the information that they need to then they can.
[21:35] Speaker 2: Now become self correcting.
[21:38] Speaker 1: They can start teaching themselves, and they can start advancing
[21:41] Speaker 1: without oversight or additional instruction.
[21:44] Speaker 3: Well, I mean firearms and firearms training is one of
[21:47] Speaker 3: those things that you don't have to be six foot
[21:50] Speaker 3: seven to be good at it. You don't have to
[21:52] Speaker 3: be able to run a four or five point forty.
[21:54] Speaker 3: You know, pretty much everybody can get better at it,
[21:58] Speaker 3: and with practice and dedication, can get pretty good at it.
[22:02] Speaker 4: Most people can agree.
[22:03] Speaker 3: It's one of those great things that like, you don't
[22:06] Speaker 3: have to be born with this ability.
[22:08] Speaker 4: You can get out there and.
[22:09] Speaker 2: Just do it. Oh man, I love that.
[22:10] Speaker 1: And I think that is also one of the things
[22:13] Speaker 1: that attracts people to it, is that they realize that
[22:15] Speaker 1: this is something that they can actually get good at.
[22:18] Speaker 1: And that is a wonderful thing because now.
[22:20] Speaker 2: They're in it for the right reason.
[22:21] Speaker 1: They're in it for not just the self defense aspect
[22:24] Speaker 1: or the job related aspect, but they're in it because
[22:26] Speaker 1: it's It's it's like pride of some sort. It's like,
[22:30] Speaker 1: I can get good at this, and I'm proud of
[22:32] Speaker 1: the fact that I am putting the work in to
[22:34] Speaker 1: get good at it.
[22:34] Speaker 2: I love that. It's it's one of the great things.
[22:36] Speaker 1: And I've been blessed to have so many students from
[22:39] Speaker 1: all different walks of life, whether and we you know,
[22:42] Speaker 1: we've been very fortunate to have adaptive athletes that have
[22:45] Speaker 1: come through our programs, and they they always set the
[22:48] Speaker 1: bar high for me. There are such great people to
[22:50] Speaker 1: work with. But we've had people from every walk of life,
[22:54] Speaker 1: some that had maybe a bad traumatic experience that brought
[22:58] Speaker 1: them to us. Then they also realize that they now
[23:02] Speaker 1: have control over their destiny if you will, because now
[23:05] Speaker 1: they can they can protect themselves, they can defend their family.
[23:07] Speaker 1: They can do this and it gives them that sense
[23:11] Speaker 1: of pride again and really helps them to kind of
[23:14] Speaker 1: see themselves in a good way.
[23:15] Speaker 2: And I love that. I think that's all.
[23:17] Speaker 1: It's one of those missing pieces of the puzzle that
[23:19] Speaker 1: I think folks these days don't see.
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[25:01] Speaker 4: You've probably heard this before, talk.
[25:04] Speaker 3: About different trainers and schools and this and that. This
[25:08] Speaker 3: guy's never even been in a gunfight.
[25:10] Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah.
[25:11] Speaker 4: Do you think that.
[25:12] Speaker 3: Matters at all when you're going to do a class,
[25:16] Speaker 3: you know, as far as learning how to be proficient
[25:20] Speaker 3: with a firearm, maybe with defensive stuff in mind, Does
[25:24] Speaker 3: that matter?
[25:27] Speaker 1: It doesn't matter to me. I think it matters to
[25:29] Speaker 1: some people. And I think that's why you need to
[25:33] Speaker 1: have a good understand of like what are you trying
[25:36] Speaker 1: to accomplish as a student. From a student's perspective, what
[25:39] Speaker 1: am I trying to accomplish?
[25:41] Speaker 2: Well, I need to.
[25:42] Speaker 1: Learn how to use a defensive firearm to the best
[25:46] Speaker 1: of my ability. And I laughed because when I went
[25:49] Speaker 1: through the Navy's instruction School, which I needed, it was
[25:52] Speaker 1: a requirement for me to go out to Buds to
[25:54] Speaker 1: be an instructor.
[25:56] Speaker 2: You have your final test, if you will, is that you.
[25:59] Speaker 1: Have to do a class on something that is not
[26:03] Speaker 1: related to anything that you do, so you would see
[26:08] Speaker 1: all different types of subjects. And a subject that I
[26:11] Speaker 1: thought was really funny was how to make a seven
[26:13] Speaker 1: layer bean dep Okay, And the guy that did this class,
[26:18] Speaker 1: he followed all the requirements for providing the instruction for
[26:23] Speaker 1: how to make a seven layer bean dep And every
[26:26] Speaker 1: one of us in our class and we act as
[26:28] Speaker 1: the students as the attendees of the instructors school.
[26:31] Speaker 2: You have the.
[26:33] Speaker 1: Instructor under observation and then you have all of us
[26:35] Speaker 1: others that are acted.
[26:36] Speaker 2: As the students.
[26:37] Speaker 1: And I remember like, I'm actually interested in this, this
[26:41] Speaker 1: is actually really interesting. He not only did he draw
[26:44] Speaker 1: out interest in me, but he actually showed me how
[26:47] Speaker 1: to do it. And I can actually make a pretty
[26:48] Speaker 1: mean seven layer bean dep to this day. And so
[26:51] Speaker 1: my point in bringing this up is that if you
[26:54] Speaker 1: understand how to do something, and you can do that
[26:57] Speaker 1: at a serious level, the subject matter is really not
[26:59] Speaker 1: that important.
[27:01] Speaker 2: What did you teach people?
[27:03] Speaker 1: So I taught them, believe it or not, how to
[27:07] Speaker 1: to put on a climbing harness and tie into a
[27:11] Speaker 1: balay rope. So that was what I taught, and it
[27:15] Speaker 1: was something that nobody else had taught in the According
[27:18] Speaker 1: to the instructors at the class, it was like the weirdest,
[27:21] Speaker 1: not the weirdest, the seven I think the seven layer
[27:23] Speaker 1: bean dep had actually been taught before, right. That was
[27:26] Speaker 1: like another one that was pretty popular because they gave
[27:28] Speaker 1: some of they gave some examples like what do we teach?
[27:31] Speaker 1: You can't teach anything that you know, anything related to
[27:34] Speaker 1: your job of sorts. So I was big into climbing, yep,
[27:38] Speaker 1: and so I was like, well, not too. You know
[27:41] Speaker 1: how to put on a climbing harness and make sure
[27:43] Speaker 1: that it's on correctly, so you don't die.
[27:45] Speaker 2: That's how good. That's what I did.
[27:46] Speaker 3: So, uh, you teach a lot of regular people who
[27:50] Speaker 3: concealed carry. You know, there's a lot of people who
[27:54] Speaker 3: get permits. Now you have twenty six, twenty seven states
[27:58] Speaker 3: where you don't even need a permit to carry. But
[28:02] Speaker 3: in your opinion, if somebody says, hey, Jeff, you've been
[28:05] Speaker 3: caring for a while but never really done one of
[28:07] Speaker 3: those training classes, or.
[28:10] Speaker 4: Or they're you know, they're.
[28:11] Speaker 3: Getting into it, what would be your benchmarks for someone
[28:17] Speaker 3: as far as performance ability?
[28:20] Speaker 4: I mean, what do you tell somebody?
[28:21] Speaker 2: That is a great question. I love this one.
[28:25] Speaker 1: This is hard because one of the other things that
[28:28] Speaker 1: we struggle with in this industry is that we're many
[28:31] Speaker 1: people don't realize this or don't acknowledge this.
[28:33] Speaker 2: But what we're doing is we're training somebody for.
[28:35] Speaker 1: An unknown, unknowable event. Can't possibly know what type of
[28:39] Speaker 1: gunfight you're going to be in. Therefore, it's very hard
[28:41] Speaker 1: to train somebody to meet that standard. However, there are
[28:45] Speaker 1: we have like benchmarks, if you will, And I think
[28:49] Speaker 1: a good something that I think most people can agree
[28:52] Speaker 1: on is draw the first shot at least in a
[28:57] Speaker 1: one point five second part time.
[29:00] Speaker 2: And now the distance is where we get.
[29:01] Speaker 1: Into arguments, is it, you know, because most of these
[29:04] Speaker 1: defensive encounters are happening in a close range. So do
[29:06] Speaker 1: we need to be doing this at ten yards? Or
[29:08] Speaker 1: is seven good enough? Or is even five acceptable? So
[29:11] Speaker 1: I think that's where the argument still stands. But I
[29:14] Speaker 1: think the draws first shot within a one point five
[29:17] Speaker 1: part time is pretty decent.
[29:19] Speaker 4: I'm unlike a regular whether.
[29:22] Speaker 1: It's a silhouette like an azone or a B eight
[29:25] Speaker 1: of some sort, I think. And you know, the other
[29:27] Speaker 1: thing I tell people is that we have to be
[29:29] Speaker 1: careful about these standards because where I see the industry
[29:32] Speaker 1: going is into you know, it's another movie quote, but
[29:37] Speaker 1: ludicrous speed, you know, and we have to be very
[29:42] Speaker 1: careful about that. I am not saying that you shouldn't
[29:44] Speaker 1: be trying to go as fast as you can.
[29:46] Speaker 2: Our motto. The way that we teach is.
[29:48] Speaker 1: That I want everybody to shoot as fast as they
[29:50] Speaker 1: can guarantee the hits. Doesn't care, I don't care what
[29:54] Speaker 1: speed that is. As long as you can still guarantee
[29:56] Speaker 1: the hits. That's as fast as I want you to shoot.
[29:58] Speaker 1: And the reason for that is that we we have
[30:00] Speaker 1: to establish emotional control. And these types of deadly force
[30:05] Speaker 1: encounters are extremely chaotic, very fast, but you as the.
[30:09] Speaker 2: Individual are still responsible for your actions.
[30:12] Speaker 1: So being able to shoot at a level where you
[30:14] Speaker 1: have maintain emotional control is still very important. So when
[30:17] Speaker 1: you get into that ludicrous speed sometimes you really lose
[30:20] Speaker 1: emotional control there. And so what I worry about is
[30:26] Speaker 1: when we start to promote and push these specific kind
[30:30] Speaker 1: of drills that move in that direction, that's great, but
[30:34] Speaker 1: my problem is that what happens, at least what I've observed,
[30:39] Speaker 1: is that somebody will just train for that and for
[30:40] Speaker 1: that only m h and they'll get really good at it,
[30:43] Speaker 1: and they eventually get to it. But then I have
[30:45] Speaker 1: to ask, well, what else, what other areas did you
[30:48] Speaker 1: sacrifice to focus so much on that one skill.
[30:53] Speaker 2: So the way that I explained it is there is
[30:55] Speaker 2: years ago.
[30:56] Speaker 1: That my goal, this was like years ago, was to
[30:59] Speaker 1: get to a five hundred pound deadlift, and I had
[31:02] Speaker 1: a track plan to get there. And what I noticed
[31:06] Speaker 1: about halfway through is that everything else that I was
[31:08] Speaker 1: training went off to the wayside. I couldn't do that.
[31:13] Speaker 1: I never made the five hundred and I got forty
[31:15] Speaker 1: five was as much as I ever lifted, pretty close.
[31:18] Speaker 1: But I noticed that everything else, my squats, my bench press,
[31:23] Speaker 1: all the other bodyweight movements all went to the wayside.
[31:26] Speaker 1: And so that's the problem that I see is that
[31:29] Speaker 1: when you put that much effort and emphasis into one
[31:32] Speaker 1: skill or one specific standard, you sometimes are missing the point.
[31:35] Speaker 2: About an unknown, unknowable event.
[31:38] Speaker 1: So I encourage people to be more of a generalist
[31:42] Speaker 1: and not a specialist.
[31:44] Speaker 2: So just you know, find like again.
[31:48] Speaker 1: The draw to first shot is a great example, but
[31:50] Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be that. It could be a double,
[31:52] Speaker 1: it can be a triple. You can do headshots, you
[31:54] Speaker 1: can do stuff on the move. All of these things
[31:56] Speaker 1: are super important. I believe you need a battery of
[31:58] Speaker 1: skills to help you kind of adapt to whatever the
[32:02] Speaker 1: situation is.
[32:03] Speaker 2: It's the way that we would train.
[32:05] Speaker 1: The beginning of CPB program is that my goal is
[32:08] Speaker 1: to give you a look at at various scenarios, because
[32:12] Speaker 1: when you find yourself in a real house trying to
[32:15] Speaker 1: do your job for real, it's not going to look
[32:17] Speaker 1: like the shoot house. But it has to give you
[32:20] Speaker 1: a familiarization enough to feel like you've seen it before
[32:24] Speaker 1: and you can close that gap so you're not looking
[32:27] Speaker 1: at it for the first time blind you have Oh
[32:30] Speaker 1: this looks familiar. I've done this kind of thing before,
[32:33] Speaker 1: and therefore I'm much faster at executing whatever.
[32:36] Speaker 2: The skill or tactic is.
[32:38] Speaker 1: So I kind of look at the shooting from the
[32:40] Speaker 1: same perspective. If I can give students enough things to
[32:45] Speaker 1: think about something in between, that battery of skills that
[32:48] Speaker 1: we provided is going to hopefully fill that gap.
[32:53] Speaker 3: I think I agree with what you're saying, and I
[32:55] Speaker 3: think it's interesting because perhaps social media and the internet
[32:59] Speaker 3: is oh yeah, the cause of like the whole timer
[33:02] Speaker 3: and first shot and hit, and I think sometimes that's
[33:05] Speaker 3: great if you could do that, they lose the whole
[33:09] Speaker 3: like I don't know, situational awareness or tactics. And I
[33:14] Speaker 3: mean what I mean by tactics is not like tactical
[33:17] Speaker 3: seal team or swat team operation stuff, but as far
[33:21] Speaker 3: as like tactics of moving away, moving behind where the
[33:27] Speaker 3: guy can't see you, maybe even closing the distance to
[33:30] Speaker 3: make a shot. But when everything is I'm gonna draw
[33:34] Speaker 3: and shoot real fast. Yeah, And it's like you know,
[33:36] Speaker 3: you have a hammer. Everything is a nail kind of thing.
[33:39] Speaker 3: And it's like, listen, there are times when drawing quickly
[33:42] Speaker 3: and shooting quickly is not the answer. If the guys
[33:45] Speaker 3: has you at gunpoint, please please don't do the oh
[33:48] Speaker 3: I'm super fast thing.
[33:50] Speaker 4: You know what I mean.
[33:51] Speaker 1: There's very few people that could probably make that work,
[33:53] Speaker 1: very very few I could probably count.
[33:54] Speaker 4: I wouldn't advise it, Yeah, exactly.
[33:56] Speaker 2: That's why I'm saying I could probably count them on
[33:58] Speaker 2: one hand. But you make really good point.
[34:01] Speaker 1: And that's why again I'm always an opponent of being
[34:04] Speaker 1: a generalist and not a specialist, because it opens up
[34:07] Speaker 1: the doors to you know your verbal what your verbal skills,
[34:11] Speaker 1: you know your verbal jousting skills, then your ability to
[34:14] Speaker 1: have a non violent posture.
[34:16] Speaker 2: So that you can kind of help de escalate things.
[34:18] Speaker 1: I always try to get across to people that I
[34:21] Speaker 1: don't want you necessarily to draw faster. I want you
[34:24] Speaker 1: to draw sooner, which brings up that situational awareness. Being
[34:28] Speaker 1: mindful of what's happening around. You're starting to pick up
[34:30] Speaker 1: on clues. You're able to recognize defensive postures and your opponent.
[34:34] Speaker 1: You can start to see things. You're able to pick
[34:37] Speaker 1: up on additional threats that are entering the fray, you're
[34:40] Speaker 1: kind of seeing.
[34:41] Speaker 2: All this happening.
[34:43] Speaker 1: That to me is extremely valuable and it's also not
[34:47] Speaker 1: often talked about.
[34:48] Speaker 3: I love that you say that, man, because we all
[34:50] Speaker 3: love the square range and shooting and doing stuff under
[34:53] Speaker 3: the timer and getting better and running.
[34:55] Speaker 4: A plate rack really quick.
[34:56] Speaker 3: But that stuff is real world. It's like parking lot stuff.
[35:01] Speaker 2: It's so true.
[35:02] Speaker 1: And whenever somebody gets done with our you know, our
[35:05] Speaker 1: defensive carry concealed carry classes, you know, we'll usually get
[35:09] Speaker 1: a students in that.
[35:09] Speaker 2: So what's the best thing that I can do?
[35:12] Speaker 1: And the one comment that I have come back to
[35:17] Speaker 1: time and time and time again is improve your situational awareness.
[35:22] Speaker 1: If you can do that, you buy yourself so much time, right,
[35:26] Speaker 1: And the way that I look at is action bes reaction.
[35:29] Speaker 1: But training buys you It like creates a buffer, and
[35:35] Speaker 1: that's an important thing. But it really what it does
[35:38] Speaker 1: is that it's that situational awareness that helps to create
[35:42] Speaker 1: the space that you need to do.
[35:43] Speaker 2: All of that other stuff.
[35:44] Speaker 4: It buys you time exactly, so a few seconds.
[35:47] Speaker 1: Even if it's a few seconds, and so like there's
[35:49] Speaker 1: so many and you know, you you can see it
[35:52] Speaker 1: in some of the close circuit TV stuff. You can
[35:54] Speaker 1: see guys that start to pick up on things they're
[35:57] Speaker 1: already preemptively. Like one of the things we don't talk
[35:59] Speaker 1: about hardly. We're always so busy about that fast draw
[36:02] Speaker 1: to first shot is what we call a sneaky draw absolutely,
[36:05] Speaker 1: which is where you surreptitiously remove the gun as quickly
[36:08] Speaker 1: or not as quickly, but as as like calmly as
[36:10] Speaker 1: you can, not drawn attention to the fact that you're drawing,
[36:14] Speaker 1: because the fastest draw is.
[36:16] Speaker 2: The one where the gun is already in your hand. Absolutely,
[36:18] Speaker 2: So you.
[36:19] Speaker 1: Know, that's not talked about. We don't really see that.
[36:21] Speaker 1: That why because it's not as sexy as you know,
[36:23] Speaker 1: a quick fast draw at a first shot or draw
[36:26] Speaker 1: to seven shots or whatever the case might be. But
[36:28] Speaker 1: those are the types of things that I think really
[36:30] Speaker 1: are more applicable and more like they should be getting
[36:36] Speaker 1: more attention, but they just don't unfortunately.
[36:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
[36:40] Speaker 4: Yeah, Jeff, thanks.
[36:41] Speaker 2: For being on with us, man, My pleasure, My pleasure.
[36:43] Speaker 4: Very fun. Jeff Gonzalez tried it concepts.
[36:46] Speaker 2: Thank you all appreciate you.
[36:47] Speaker 4: Go check them out. That's it for us. We'll see
[36:49] Speaker 4: you next time on gun cognation.

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