# Best Hunting Bullets; AR-15 Ban Defeated; Hunting Season Prep

An episode of [Gun Talk](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/190516844), 19 Jul 2026, 44 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/73057611/071926guntalka.mp3

In This Hour: -- All-copper bullets for hunting aren't new, but they are now being widely accepted. Jeff Hoffman from Black Hills Ammunition reveals what he has learned in their ballistic lab. -- The ban on AR-15 rifles in New Jersey had been crushed by the Third Circuit. Mark Smith from the Four Boxes Diner does a deep dive into the decision and what it means. -- Realistic preparation for hunting seasons. Gun Talk 07.19.26 Hour 1 Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gun-talk--6185159/support.

## Transcript

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[0:27] Speaker 3: Czfirearms dot Com.
[0:31] Speaker 4: He was the first and he's still the best. For
[0:34] Speaker 4: thirty years, Tom Gresham has been your trusted source on
[0:37] Speaker 4: all things ballistic, new guns, Second Amendment, personal protection, deep.
[0:42] Speaker 5: Part of it.
[0:43] Speaker 4: Paul, Tom Talk Gun Now, here's Tom.
[0:51] Speaker 2: It's that time again. Welcome again to gun Talk. I'm
[0:54] Speaker 2: Tom Gresham'm your hosts. We get together every week to
[0:57] Speaker 2: talk about guns and shooting and gun collecting and target
[1:01] Speaker 2: shooting and hunting and yeah, Second Amendment as well. There's
[1:04] Speaker 2: a lot of things going on. We're gonna be talking
[1:06] Speaker 2: about some cool stuff, some AMMO and some shooting stuff.
[1:10] Speaker 2: But you know, I got to jump right into the
[1:12] Speaker 2: middle of this. We just had a major court decision,
[1:16] Speaker 2: actually a couple of them that kind of changes the landscape,
[1:21] Speaker 2: and we've got to talk about that. And I'll get
[1:23] Speaker 2: into this a good bit more a little bit later
[1:24] Speaker 2: in the show, but just to give you the highlights,
[1:29] Speaker 2: we now are able to carry legally into post offices,
[1:34] Speaker 2: with some restrictions and with some limitations. We'll cover that
[1:37] Speaker 2: as well. But the big news comes out of the
[1:41] Speaker 2: Third Circuit, a US Court of Appeals, which just ruled
[1:46] Speaker 2: late this past week that a ban on AR fifteens
[1:51] Speaker 2: and semi automatic firearms, and a big part of this
[1:56] Speaker 2: and a ban on standard capacity magazines that is, magazines
[2:02] Speaker 2: that hold more than ten rounds is unconstitutional. This affects
[2:08] Speaker 2: the new Jersey ban on AR fifteen's and other semiatos
[2:14] Speaker 2: and on standard capacity magazines. What's this gonna mean, Well,
[2:18] Speaker 2: we already have an AR fifteen case, it's been accepted
[2:22] Speaker 2: by the Supreme Court. They're going to hear the arguments
[2:24] Speaker 2: on it and they're gonna make a decision on it.
[2:26] Speaker 2: This adds magazine bands to that. Now, whether this gets
[2:31] Speaker 2: appeal to the Supreme Court or it just sits there
[2:35] Speaker 2: and maybe the Supreme Court uses this as a reason
[2:37] Speaker 2: to add the whole magazine bands to the cases, they're
[2:41] Speaker 2: going to be hearing, I don't know. Just in a
[2:44] Speaker 2: little bit and a few minutes, we're gonna be talking
[2:46] Speaker 2: with Mark Smith about this, and he has a great
[2:48] Speaker 2: way of explaining all that. So we're going to get
[2:50] Speaker 2: into that a lot of things for us to talk
[2:52] Speaker 2: about a lot of things going on on the Second
[2:54] Speaker 2: Endment front, but you know, we also want to talk
[2:56] Speaker 2: about guns and AMMO and shooting and all the rest
[2:59] Speaker 2: of that, and so to do that, we're going to
[3:01] Speaker 2: bring in a good friend of mine. One of the
[3:04] Speaker 2: people we love talking with just because he knows itaddar
[3:07] Speaker 2: and much and also he's just a fun guy to
[3:08] Speaker 2: hang out with. Is Jeff Hoffman from Black Hills Ammunition. Jeff,
[3:12] Speaker 2: welcome again.
[3:13] Speaker 5: Hey, good to be with you again. Tom.
[3:15] Speaker 2: All right, So Black Hills Ammunition located right there in
[3:18] Speaker 2: the well, you're in the Black Hills, so it's kind
[3:20] Speaker 2: of what it's all about. But you make really really
[3:24] Speaker 2: good ammo and I know a lot of it is
[3:27] Speaker 2: out on the commercial market, the civilian market, but you
[3:29] Speaker 2: make a lot of AMMO for the military too, don't you.
[3:32] Speaker 5: Oh yeah, that's anymore. That's the majority of our business, Tom.
[3:35] Speaker 5: We have kind of evolved into primarily a military specialty
[3:41] Speaker 5: ammunition producer.
[3:42] Speaker 2: Now when you say specialty, what are you talking about?
[3:45] Speaker 5: We're not good at well. We can do anything, we
[3:48] Speaker 5: just can't do it as economically as some of them.
[3:50] Speaker 5: For example, eight five five you know standard five five
[3:54] Speaker 5: six ball. The government plan at Lake City can produce
[3:59] Speaker 5: those by the gazillions, and we just can't compete with
[4:02] Speaker 5: that kind of economy at scale. So we have to
[4:04] Speaker 5: compete on things where the government maybe has a little
[4:08] Speaker 5: bit more of a smaller requirement for different performance. Probably
[4:13] Speaker 5: the most well known of those is the Mark two
[4:15] Speaker 5: sixty two. They wanted basically a sniper around in five
[4:18] Speaker 5: five six, and to this day, after we've we've started
[4:22] Speaker 5: producing in nineteen ninety nine, it was type classified I
[4:26] Speaker 5: think in two thousand and we're still the only people
[4:29] Speaker 5: that make precision five five six round for the military.
[4:32] Speaker 2: So all right, so what goes into that? I mean,
[4:35] Speaker 2: how do you take the five five six cartridge and say, okay,
[4:38] Speaker 2: now we're going to make it a really good sniper round.
[4:41] Speaker 2: What do you do?
[4:42] Speaker 5: We lucked into this business. There was a retired lieutenant
[4:46] Speaker 5: colonel from the Army by the name of Mike Harris
[4:48] Speaker 5: that came to us back when we didn't do anything
[4:51] Speaker 5: with military and he said, you have a bid on
[4:55] Speaker 5: this AMU bid. I think you can win it. And
[4:57] Speaker 5: I said, sir, we don't know anything about military business.
[5:02] Speaker 5: And he said, well, if you didn't catch the title
[5:04] Speaker 5: I do. This was back in nineteen ninety six, and
[5:08] Speaker 5: so he guided us on how to submit on that bid.
[5:12] Speaker 5: And the bid specs were absolutely impossible, just literally impossible.
[5:16] Speaker 5: They wanted a velocity you couldn't get within reasonable pressures
[5:20] Speaker 5: or the pressures they specified. We submitted because I looked
[5:24] Speaker 5: at it and said, what do they actually want? They
[5:26] Speaker 5: want the performance? Can we get there safely even though
[5:29] Speaker 5: we exceed the pressure And the answer was yes. So
[5:33] Speaker 5: we did that. We submitted and we won the bid.
[5:35] Speaker 5: And then I called up am you and I said,
[5:37] Speaker 5: did you read or proposal. We couldn't meet your spec
[5:41] Speaker 5: on pressure. They said, yeah, nobody could. We can't even
[5:43] Speaker 5: do that. We just wanted to see what industry could
[5:46] Speaker 5: do when you saved us ten thousand PSI over what
[5:48] Speaker 5: we were doing. Well, we won that bid, and basically
[5:52] Speaker 5: the Mark two sixty two was an outgrowth of that.
[5:56] Speaker 5: We started building ammunition for the army Marksmanship Unit and
[6:00] Speaker 5: did well there. So then the government came to us
[6:02] Speaker 5: and said, you know, we need something for At that time,
[6:06] Speaker 5: it was the Mark twelve, a brand new scope rifle.
[6:09] Speaker 5: It was basically an M sixty and a one suppressed accuracy,
[6:13] Speaker 5: accurized and scope cited. They said, we need ammunition that's
[6:18] Speaker 5: effective and accurate at six hundred and I said, well,
[6:21] Speaker 5: we can certainly do the accuracy. We're already doing that
[6:24] Speaker 5: for the Army of Marksmanship in it. As far as
[6:27] Speaker 5: terminal bailistics at six hundred, I don't know anything about
[6:30] Speaker 5: how five five six is six hundred. And so we
[6:34] Speaker 5: started working on it, and they basically said you want
[6:37] Speaker 5: to play, you know, because I hesitated a little bit
[6:40] Speaker 5: and they said, Jeff, do you want to play it?
[6:43] Speaker 5: Normally something like that. It's they put out a source
[6:46] Speaker 5: of SAD and it's competed. They didn't compete it. They
[6:49] Speaker 5: just said you want to play, and so I said, yeah, absolutely,
[6:51] Speaker 5: And basically that's how we got there. And basically what
[6:54] Speaker 5: you do is you pick a really good project value.
[6:58] Speaker 5: You pick the best components of everything that you can find.
[7:03] Speaker 5: The best propellant. We had a special propellant built for it.
[7:08] Speaker 5: We ended up with a Sierra MATCHKAG seventy seven, which
[7:11] Speaker 5: is a terrific bullet. We use several different brass, but
[7:15] Speaker 5: right now we're using the Lake City brass. It's the
[7:17] Speaker 5: absolute best. And then you just assemble it with extreme care,
[7:23] Speaker 5: and you buy good components and put together with extreme care,
[7:27] Speaker 5: and that's how you get good ammunition. We don't do
[7:31] Speaker 5: things like uniform primer pockets or trimola brass. We can't
[7:36] Speaker 5: afford to do that for the millions of rounds we
[7:38] Speaker 5: have to produce. So you just get good components, assemble
[7:42] Speaker 5: them with extreme care, and there's tricks we've learned along
[7:45] Speaker 5: the way. But we still have that contract and nobody
[7:48] Speaker 5: else has won it, so I guess we're doing something right.
[7:51] Speaker 2: You also produce specialty AMO for shall we say, special
[7:56] Speaker 2: type units out there that you can't really talk about.
[8:00] Speaker 2: But I got to think that all the special stuff
[8:03] Speaker 2: you're doing for special teams put it that way out there,
[8:08] Speaker 2: it kind of filters into the AMMO that the rest
[8:11] Speaker 2: of us can buy on store shelves.
[8:13] Speaker 5: Yes, when the government comes to us, and they'll come
[8:15] Speaker 5: to us on a fairly regular basis, we've developed something
[8:19] Speaker 5: over forty different AMMO items for the military, and they've
[8:23] Speaker 5: learned to trust that. They'll come to us and say,
[8:25] Speaker 5: you know, it'd be nice if we had something that
[8:27] Speaker 5: would do with this. You know, not a sources saw it,
[8:31] Speaker 5: just drop a hint and right, We're willing to do
[8:34] Speaker 5: the R and D on it, and we'll we'll work
[8:37] Speaker 5: on it and come up with something that does that
[8:40] Speaker 5: special thing that they want. And once we figure out
[8:43] Speaker 5: how to do that, it does trickle down into the
[8:45] Speaker 5: commercial market quite often.
[8:47] Speaker 2: So what do you learn from that? How do you
[8:50] Speaker 2: incorporate all these things you've learned from doing the special,
[8:54] Speaker 2: high end military stuff to the commercial stuff that we
[8:57] Speaker 2: take out into the field for hunting deer and elk.
[8:59] Speaker 2: How do you make better I am? I guess is
[9:00] Speaker 2: the real question.
[9:01] Speaker 5: One of the things that you're propellant makes a really
[9:06] Speaker 5: big difference. Tom. We didn't realize that. It's something we
[9:11] Speaker 5: learned along the way, and two thousand and five we
[9:15] Speaker 5: found that our mark two sixty two needed to have
[9:18] Speaker 5: better tempt stability, and at that time we didn't even
[9:22] Speaker 5: understand what all went into that. But what we've learned
[9:26] Speaker 5: is there's some propellants that are better than others, and
[9:29] Speaker 5: you just learn which propellants and it makes a big
[9:32] Speaker 5: difference because there's probably been a lot of your listeners
[9:37] Speaker 5: out there that have developed a load or bought factory
[9:40] Speaker 5: ammo and it works great. They're out at seventy degrees
[9:44] Speaker 5: and everything is great. But then they get out, for example,
[9:48] Speaker 5: in the middle of a dog town, and dogs like
[9:50] Speaker 5: it when it's nice and bright and sunny and summertime,
[9:54] Speaker 5: and so maybe it's eighty degrees or maybe it's one
[9:57] Speaker 5: hundred degrees and the dogs are still out, so you're
[9:59] Speaker 5: out their shoes and maybe you're shooting a lot because
[10:03] Speaker 5: you're into a good dog town, and your gun gets hot,
[10:06] Speaker 5: you've got a round chambered when everybody says, hey, we've
[10:08] Speaker 5: kind of knocked him down here, let's go over to
[10:10] Speaker 5: the other side of the field. So you spend ten
[10:12] Speaker 5: minutes moving over to the other side of the field,
[10:15] Speaker 5: or even five minutes with around sitting in that super
[10:17] Speaker 5: hot chamber, and then you touch it off when you
[10:20] Speaker 5: line up on a dog and you touch it off
[10:22] Speaker 5: and it blows a primer and you get a little
[10:24] Speaker 5: gas back in your face and you're saying, well, I
[10:25] Speaker 5: must have hit a hot round or I must have
[10:27] Speaker 5: put too much into that one. No, what happened there
[10:30] Speaker 5: is that you needed that round up. One thing we've
[10:33] Speaker 5: learned on er ar or an M four, which is
[10:36] Speaker 5: kind of a worst case thing, is those chambers can
[10:39] Speaker 5: get up to over three hundred degrees. So you have
[10:42] Speaker 5: to build ammo that can put up with that kind
[10:45] Speaker 5: of environment where it sits in a chamber for a
[10:48] Speaker 5: minute or so. At at three hundred degrees cooked, you're
[10:51] Speaker 5: really cooking that. And you have to select really good propellant.
[10:54] Speaker 5: That's that's one of the things that we've learned. Just
[10:57] Speaker 5: got to learn what good propellant is and you got
[10:59] Speaker 5: to test for it.
[11:00] Speaker 2: Interesting. So, yeah, obviously you increase the temperature, you increase
[11:03] Speaker 2: the pressure. Well, you increase the pressure. You know, even
[11:06] Speaker 2: if you're not blowing primers, the bullets are not flying
[11:09] Speaker 2: to the same place because the pressure's higher.
[11:11] Speaker 5: That shows your experience. That's the other thing for long
[11:14] Speaker 5: range shooters. If you don't have good temp stability on
[11:17] Speaker 5: your propellant and your velocity is changing one hundred and
[11:21] Speaker 5: fifty feet per second when they amunition gets hot, that's
[11:24] Speaker 5: going to affect your trajectory and that can you know
[11:27] Speaker 5: that makes it a lot harder to hit stuff at
[11:30] Speaker 5: eight hundred yards or or beyond that. I'm not advocating
[11:33] Speaker 5: hunting at eight hundred yards, but it's still just a
[11:36] Speaker 5: lot of fun to be able to hit stuff out there.
[11:38] Speaker 5: And if you're having a good time in shooting fast
[11:40] Speaker 5: and you got around the seating up with the chamber
[11:43] Speaker 5: and all of a sudden you're missing, that might be
[11:45] Speaker 5: the problem.
[11:46] Speaker 2: Interesting, all right, So I know people right now are
[11:49] Speaker 2: at least if they're not, they should be starting to
[11:51] Speaker 2: think about hunting. Seasons are coming up and getting ready
[11:54] Speaker 2: for that. You have a full ballistic lab. You do
[11:56] Speaker 2: a lot of testing into ballistic gelatin. And I think
[12:00] Speaker 2: you were kind of like me at first. You're thinking, Okay,
[12:03] Speaker 2: the all copper bullets are interesting, but I'm not sure
[12:07] Speaker 2: that they're is good for hunting as the old cup
[12:10] Speaker 2: and core or the bonded bullets. But your testing has
[12:13] Speaker 2: shown they really really do perform.
[12:16] Speaker 5: They really do. I've become a believer, and that's that's
[12:20] Speaker 5: something because I was, as you said, a skeptic at first.
[12:23] Speaker 5: I thought copper bullets that are harder, they're probably hard
[12:27] Speaker 5: to get jumping up and they'll probably fail at long distance,
[12:29] Speaker 5: and I was absolutely wrong. You can work with that
[12:34] Speaker 5: metal cut weaknesses into the bullet. Basically, you can design
[12:38] Speaker 5: that bullet to pop open immediately when it hits something,
[12:42] Speaker 5: but still retain excellent weight. And you don't need quite
[12:46] Speaker 5: as heavy as a bullet as you do with a
[12:48] Speaker 5: lead bullet because you're not losing weight along the way.
[12:52] Speaker 5: So you can shoot a lighter bullet at a higher velocity.
[12:56] Speaker 5: It offsets what you would think would be a performance
[12:58] Speaker 5: loss on ballistic coefficient. You think, oh, the lighter copper
[13:02] Speaker 5: bullets aren't going to fly as well. Well you can.
[13:05] Speaker 5: You can use a lighter bullet and shoot it faster,
[13:07] Speaker 5: and that greatly offsets that problem. But in short, I've
[13:10] Speaker 5: become a believer. I shoot a lot of copper bullets.
[13:13] Speaker 5: All of my armags are loaded with monolithic bullets.
[13:17] Speaker 2: So not just for hunting, but you're even working with
[13:22] Speaker 2: the copper bullets all like self defense loads because sometimes
[13:26] Speaker 2: the bad guys hiding behind something you need to get through.
[13:29] Speaker 5: Yep, exactly. That's another advantage to monolithic bullets is they
[13:34] Speaker 5: can not only retain their weight when they hit the target,
[13:38] Speaker 5: as in jail or an animal, but they're also really
[13:41] Speaker 5: good at windshields, car doors, other barriers like that, and
[13:46] Speaker 5: it doesn't come at the risk of overpenetration because normally
[13:51] Speaker 5: you think when you design something to shoot your barriers,
[13:53] Speaker 5: it's going to shoot right through soft targets, and it's
[13:56] Speaker 5: not true. You're going to get stuff that bullets. You
[13:59] Speaker 5: can design them so that will work really good on
[14:02] Speaker 5: game animals or self defense situations without over penetrating, but
[14:07] Speaker 5: still be effective on barriers. You can get the best
[14:09] Speaker 5: of both worlds. You know.
[14:11] Speaker 2: When I hear you talk about that, I'm reminded you're
[14:14] Speaker 2: never very far away from your career as a police
[14:17] Speaker 2: officer or a sniper, are you.
[14:19] Speaker 5: Oh, it's uh. When you become a become a cop,
[14:23] Speaker 5: it's not a job anymore. It's something you internalize it,
[14:26] Speaker 5: so it's kind of hard to give that up. And
[14:28] Speaker 5: sniping it's the same thing. You know, you learn a
[14:31] Speaker 5: bunch of stuff. And when I retired as as team leader,
[14:34] Speaker 5: you know, it was kind of an adjustment for me.
[14:37] Speaker 5: I moped around a little bit and find I realized, Jeff,
[14:40] Speaker 5: you're the same guy you always worry you just don't
[14:42] Speaker 5: have the same responsibilities and that helped a lot. But yeah,
[14:46] Speaker 5: you're right, you internalize that and it's you still. You
[14:49] Speaker 5: don't forget everything that you learned, and you still care
[14:52] Speaker 5: about those guys.
[14:53] Speaker 2: Honestly, Jeff, I will tell you, I like to get
[14:56] Speaker 2: you on here and we'll talk about your products, and
[14:58] Speaker 2: you make some of the very best demo that's on
[15:00] Speaker 2: the market. But mostly I don't want people to know
[15:02] Speaker 2: who you are, and then that permeates your entire company
[15:06] Speaker 2: and everywhere you go. Everybody in the company has that
[15:08] Speaker 2: same attitude that you have of making really good ammo
[15:12] Speaker 2: that people are betting their lives on. And for me,
[15:15] Speaker 2: that's what Black Gulls Ammo is all about. It's it's you,
[15:19] Speaker 2: it's the people there, it's what's behind it. And knowing
[15:22] Speaker 2: that everything around you're making you know that somebody is
[15:26] Speaker 2: betting a hunt or betting their life on it.
[15:29] Speaker 5: That's that's something You're exactly right. Everybody here understands that
[15:34] Speaker 5: what we're doing and that a life could depend on
[15:37] Speaker 5: every round that we make, one story that we tell.
[15:40] Speaker 5: Sometimes We've got a whole room full of lady inspectors
[15:44] Speaker 5: that hand inspect every round of ammunition, and one of
[15:47] Speaker 5: them our son graduated from rangers school and he was deployed.
[15:51] Speaker 5: And all of our lot codes have a plenty of
[15:55] Speaker 5: information on it, including not only who made it, what
[15:58] Speaker 5: machine has made on, but who the inspector was. So
[16:00] Speaker 5: her son, this ranger in Afghanistan. When they'd get a
[16:03] Speaker 5: ship my AMMO and it was Blackhall's AMMO, they would
[16:07] Speaker 5: he would dig through the AMMO to find his mom's
[16:10] Speaker 5: inspection number. So he was shooting ammunition that his mom
[16:13] Speaker 5: had built for him.
[16:14] Speaker 2: Oh my god.
[16:16] Speaker 5: When she reported that back and then his mom called
[16:20] Speaker 5: the rest of the inspectors, all of a sudden, we
[16:22] Speaker 5: had a whole room full of moms. You know, everyone
[16:24] Speaker 5: really understood that it meant something that lives do depend on.
[16:29] Speaker 5: It might be somebody that you really love. There you go, Jeff,
[16:31] Speaker 5: thank you so much. I appreciate what you do. Black
[16:34] Speaker 5: Kill's AMMO is black dash Hills dot com. You make
[16:37] Speaker 5: good stuff, my friend. Oh thank you, Tom, thanks for
[16:40] Speaker 5: inviting me on again.
[16:41] Speaker 2: You bet anytime. All right, don't go far, folks, We'll
[16:44] Speaker 2: be right back with more gun talk.
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[18:19] Speaker 2: roll around on the ground. Now, get up all your
[18:22] Speaker 2: gear that's on the ground. That's what you're not gonna
[18:24] Speaker 2: have in a fight.
[18:24] Speaker 5: Gun Talk should be in your podcast feed. Check out
[18:27] Speaker 5: gun Talk Nation. What's it like to be blown up?
[18:30] Speaker 8: You know, if it's like C four, it's almost like
[18:33] Speaker 8: a smack hunting.
[18:35] Speaker 5: Yeah, we talk about that too. On your crosshairs, I
[18:38] Speaker 5: like a thin crosshair. AJ.
[18:40] Speaker 7: You're really dating yourself by calling things crosshairs.
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[19:13] Speaker 9: Reimagine for how you carry today the LCP Max with
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[19:31] Speaker 2: Now whether here Tom Grasham Eat six six talk gun
[19:33] Speaker 2: or Tom talk gun, that'll get you in here. We're
[19:35] Speaker 2: talking about well pretty much everything we're talking about, well,
[19:38] Speaker 2: different kinds of bullets, kind of loads. We've learned a
[19:41] Speaker 2: little bit about propellants for your reloads from Jeff Hoffman,
[19:45] Speaker 2: and how we got the shoote store that just broke
[19:47] Speaker 2: this week. Actually over the last three weeks, if you will.
[19:51] Speaker 2: Of course, we have the United States Supreme Court deciding
[19:54] Speaker 2: to grant sert to accept a case on an AR
[19:59] Speaker 2: fifteen ban, and that will be heard this fall, probably
[20:04] Speaker 2: get the decision next June. And then on Friday, the
[20:08] Speaker 2: Third Circuit Court of Appeals, which is the final court
[20:12] Speaker 2: before it goes to the Supreme Court, decided that New
[20:17] Speaker 2: Jersey's ban on air fifteens and all semi automatic rifles
[20:23] Speaker 2: is simply unconstitutional and they struck it down. This is
[20:27] Speaker 2: right after the Seventh Circuit, like a week and a
[20:29] Speaker 2: half before that decided that yeah, it's perfectly fine to
[20:33] Speaker 2: ban air fifteens, no problem, it's not unconstitutional at all.
[20:37] Speaker 2: So now you got the Seventh Circuit saying, yeah, you
[20:40] Speaker 2: can ban air fifteens, and the Third Circuit said, no,
[20:43] Speaker 2: you can't, that's unconstitutional, and the Supreme Court's already agreed
[20:47] Speaker 2: to hear a case. Now there's an additional factor in
[20:51] Speaker 2: the Third Circuit decision because they also included in this
[20:56] Speaker 2: case magazines, that is, New Jersey band magazines. They would
[21:02] Speaker 2: hold more than ten rounds. The Court struck that down
[21:07] Speaker 2: and said, that's ridiculous. You mean it's okay to have
[21:10] Speaker 2: ten rounds and not to have eleven rounds. One more
[21:12] Speaker 2: round put you over the limit. That's not constitutional. So
[21:16] Speaker 2: they struck that down too. Now, quick update, if you
[21:19] Speaker 2: are in New Jersey, you don't run out and buy
[21:21] Speaker 2: these things yet, because they have to issue a mandate
[21:26] Speaker 2: on it, and then until that's done, it is not law.
[21:29] Speaker 2: So just relax a little bit, okay. Also, can I
[21:33] Speaker 2: just make a little suggestion as a friend, if you're
[21:37] Speaker 2: in New Jersey and you decide, once it is locked,
[21:40] Speaker 2: run out and buy stuff you may or may not
[21:44] Speaker 2: want to post about it. You may want to be
[21:46] Speaker 2: a little circumspect. It's kind of like flashing your conceal
[21:50] Speaker 2: carry gun and you showing everybody that you're concealed carrying.
[21:54] Speaker 2: I would hold off a little bit, let the water settle,
[21:57] Speaker 2: find out what's going on before you start posting publicly
[22:01] Speaker 2: about buying that. Not to say it's wrong or anything else,
[22:04] Speaker 2: I'm just saying, given the circumstances around there, I'd be
[22:07] Speaker 2: a little bit careful. When we come back. Where are
[22:09] Speaker 2: we talking with Mark Smith from the Four Boxes Diner.
[22:12] Speaker 2: He is perhaps the very best at explaining this kind
[22:16] Speaker 2: of stuff, the inside baseball stuff, on the legal issues,
[22:20] Speaker 2: but he makes it understandable and there's always the well
[22:23] Speaker 2: then what does that mean for the rest of us.
[22:25] Speaker 2: We'll be right back with that if you want to
[22:27] Speaker 2: join us again. Eight six' six talk. Gun I'm Tom
[22:30] Speaker 2: gresham and this is gun.
[22:31] Speaker 5: Talk.
[22:38] Speaker 8: Hell, yes we're going to take YOUR ar, fifteen YOUR
[22:40] Speaker 8: ak forty.
[22:41] Speaker 2: Seven, HEY i actually know you're Not beto Or. Uric
[22:52] Speaker 2: you're not going to take away OUR ak forty seven
[22:55] Speaker 2: is OUR ar Fifteen's, hey welcome. Back I'm Tom. Gresham
[22:58] Speaker 2: this is Gun. Talk jo right now is the GUY
[23:00] Speaker 2: i go to AND i need to understand what's going
[23:02] Speaker 2: on in The Second amendment legal. Front he Is Mark
[23:05] Speaker 2: smith of The Four Boxes. Diner, Mark what a? Week
[23:09] Speaker 2: what are several? Weeks? Right?
[23:11] Speaker 10: Tom how you? Doing always a great honor to be
[23:13] Speaker 10: on the. Show and AS i, predicted we are destroying
[23:17] Speaker 10: the anti gun movement In america step by, step president by,
[23:22] Speaker 10: preston week by. Week the trend is our, friend my,
[23:26] Speaker 10: friend and this is.
[23:27] Speaker 2: Great you are The karnak of gun rights and the.
[23:31] Speaker 2: Litigation you predicted This Third circuit opinion almost down to the,
[23:37] Speaker 2: WELL i don't know if it's all one hundred and
[23:38] Speaker 2: ninety four pages, worth but you predicted this one. Perfectly.
[23:43] Speaker 10: Yeah well, Right, well you, KNOW i REMEMBER i was
[23:46] Speaker 10: on The trump campaign back in twenty. SIXTEEN i was
[23:48] Speaker 10: on The trump presidential, team the presidential transition. Team so you,
[23:54] Speaker 10: know AND i know a lot of these. Judges i've
[23:56] Speaker 10: been around these elite judges for a long, time member
[23:58] Speaker 10: of The Supreme, court Bar Federalist, society leader and all that.
[24:02] Speaker 10: Stuff SO i have a feel for how people think
[24:05] Speaker 10: and what they're, thinking how they view the. Law and
[24:09] Speaker 10: that's why WHEN i Say this is HOW i think
[24:11] Speaker 10: it's going to play. Out ignore what the mainstream media,
[24:13] Speaker 10: Says ignore what these anti gun pundits, say and these elite,
[24:17] Speaker 10: professors ignore all that. Stuff just listen to me BECAUSE
[24:21] Speaker 10: i have the best feel for. It And i've been
[24:23] Speaker 10: telling everyone we're going To we're gonna win THE ar
[24:25] Speaker 10: fifteen cas it's just the question of. Timing and you,
[24:28] Speaker 10: know we could have won it this. Term but the
[24:30] Speaker 10: truth is The Supreme court this particular Term tom had
[24:33] Speaker 10: so many of these huge blockbuster cases with the, tariffs.
[24:37] Speaker 11: With bright, citizenship with the voting.
[24:39] Speaker 10: Rights at Two Second amendment. Cases they had the, boys you,
[24:42] Speaker 10: know the transgender boys competing in girls' sports. Cases it
[24:46] Speaker 10: was a blockbuster term and that's Why Justice kavanaugh, says,
[24:50] Speaker 10: look we're going to get to the air fifteen issue
[24:52] Speaker 10: in the next term or, two and it just wasn't this.
[24:54] Speaker 10: Term AND i, said, look just, relax it's going to
[24:57] Speaker 10: come to the you, know they only take seventy cases
[24:59] Speaker 10: a year The Supreme. Court it takes, time but we're
[25:01] Speaker 10: going to get where we need to. Be it's, better
[25:03] Speaker 10: as they, say you, know slow as smooth and smooth as.
[25:06] Speaker 10: Fast it's better to get where we need to be
[25:08] Speaker 10: if it takes a little bit, longer and that's where we.
[25:11] Speaker 10: Are The Supreme court is just granted certain in these
[25:13] Speaker 10: the air fifteen, cases and as, predicted This Third Circuit
[25:16] Speaker 10: court Of appeals case has basically is a roadmap for
[25:21] Speaker 10: what The Supreme court is going to. Do it's very
[25:23] Speaker 10: similar to WHAT i expect The Supreme court to do
[25:25] Speaker 10: In june twenty twenty. Seven it looks like oral arguments
[25:28] Speaker 10: in those ar cases in front of THE Us Supreme
[25:30] Speaker 10: court are going to take place in the month Of,
[25:32] Speaker 10: december which is kind of WHAT i. Anticipated if you
[25:35] Speaker 10: look at the number of CASES a granted sir two and,
[25:37] Speaker 10: yeah By june twenty twenty, SEVEN i think we're going
[25:40] Speaker 10: to knock out all the semi automatic rifle bands In.
[25:42] Speaker 10: America and This Third circuit case out Of, philadelphia which
[25:45] Speaker 10: knocked out The New jersey bands is a warm up
[25:49] Speaker 10: to the big national win we're going to get in
[25:51] Speaker 10: less than twelve.
[25:52] Speaker 2: Months, okay let me ask you, this because The Third
[25:54] Speaker 2: circuit rules that not only the original thought was or
[25:58] Speaker 2: the challenge was AGAINST a, Fifteen so they, say, yeah that's,
[26:01] Speaker 2: fine but also we're going to take in and bring
[26:04] Speaker 2: in all semi automatic rifles pretty aside the handguns and
[26:08] Speaker 2: the shotguns for a, moment BUT i think they're going
[26:09] Speaker 2: to get to that. Now the QUESTION i have for you,
[26:12] Speaker 2: is but in The Third circuit decision that we just
[26:14] Speaker 2: got On, friday they also brought in magazines and, said,
[26:19] Speaker 2: no you cannot ban magazines that hold more than ten.
[26:22] Speaker 2: Rounds is there a possibility that The Supreme court will then, say,
[26:26] Speaker 2: well why don't we include that in THE ar fifteen?
[26:29] Speaker 10: Case we have, no there is not right, now and
[26:32] Speaker 10: we just to be, clear this is sort of. Counterintuitive
[26:36] Speaker 10: and SOMETIMES i have to tell The Second amendment movement
[26:38] Speaker 10: stuff they don't want to, hear because it's my job
[26:41] Speaker 10: on my, channel The Four Boxes, diners you, Know, tom
[26:43] Speaker 10: to tell people the way it is in the real
[26:45] Speaker 10: world and not just screamshall not being friends and all this.
[26:48] Speaker 10: Stuff and here's here's the real world situation with The Supreme.
[26:52] Speaker 10: Court we're going to WIN ar. Fifteens we're gonna win
[26:55] Speaker 10: semi automatic. Rifles that is a massive. Victory we do
[26:58] Speaker 10: not want the magazine issue blended in with this. Case
[27:02] Speaker 10: why BECAUSE i think there is an outside chance that
[27:06] Speaker 10: if we put the magazine issue in this case with
[27:09] Speaker 10: THE ar fifteen ban, issue and they're both, there there
[27:12] Speaker 10: is a chance a chance then we could see a
[27:15] Speaker 10: split the baby situation where The Supreme court rules in
[27:18] Speaker 10: our favor FOR ar, fifteens which they're going to, do
[27:21] Speaker 10: but for some reason agrees that some limitations can.
[27:24] Speaker 11: Be had on magazines because they'll be, like, oh.
[27:26] Speaker 10: Well we'll kind of split the baby. Here so the
[27:29] Speaker 10: proper approach, here in my, view is we WIN ar
[27:32] Speaker 10: fifteen semi automatic, rifles which will be a massive victory
[27:36] Speaker 10: because basically the anti gun billionaire classes spend all their
[27:39] Speaker 10: money on the banning of these guns the last decade or.
[27:41] Speaker 10: So then what we do tom is we go after
[27:45] Speaker 10: and win at The Supreme court the suppressor issue because,
[27:49] Speaker 10: suppressors unlike, magazines have no offensive capabilities in the sense
[27:53] Speaker 10: that you, know no one is getting killed in a
[27:55] Speaker 10: mass shooting with, suppressors so you so what We but
[27:58] Speaker 10: here's the, thing the nothingology the interpreters of the approach
[28:02] Speaker 10: to interpreting The Second amendment is identical to suppressors and to. Magazines,
[28:08] Speaker 10: Right neither in and of themselves are. Guns neither of
[28:11] Speaker 10: them in and of themselves called bang bang, right they're kind
[28:14] Speaker 10: of accouterments or, accessories but they all are the same, thing,
[28:18] Speaker 10: because As bruin said in twenty twenty, two The Supreme
[28:21] Speaker 10: court said that an arm under The Second amendment is any,
[28:24] Speaker 10: instrument any, instrument physical, object a instrument that facilitates armed self. Defense,
[28:30] Speaker 10: obviously magazines and suppressious facilitate armed self. Defense they're both.
[28:34] Speaker 10: Objects they're both. Instruments so if we win the suppresser,
[28:38] Speaker 10: case by, definition we're easily going to win the magazine.
[28:41] Speaker 10: Case so to, me we win ar. Fifties we win,
[28:44] Speaker 10: suppressers which is an easy case because there's, no LIKE i,
[28:46] Speaker 10: said nobody's using Those kimment mass. Shootings then we take
[28:50] Speaker 10: out the magazines in that. Order and again we want
[28:53] Speaker 10: to learn from the gay rights, movement Tom. As you,
[28:54] Speaker 10: know the gay rights movement doesn't just jump right to gay.
[28:57] Speaker 10: Marriage they start step by step by step over period
[28:59] Speaker 10: to twy five years to get the gay. Marriage we
[29:01] Speaker 10: want that, incremental step by step island hopping. Approach, Right
[29:05] Speaker 10: you don't just Attack japan On december nineteen forty. One
[29:08] Speaker 10: you need to capture the islands and battle and battle and,
[29:11] Speaker 10: battle and then you Destroy japan and go after the.
[29:14] Speaker 10: Mainland it's the same marroach when it comes to Our Second.
[29:16] Speaker 2: Amendment you build a wall one brick at the. Time
[29:19] Speaker 2: SO i got a question for. YOU i was thinking
[29:21] Speaker 2: about this before you came, on and you talk a
[29:23] Speaker 2: lot about the, methodology and then we're establishing the, methodology
[29:27] Speaker 2: And i'm, thinking what does that? Mean AND i think
[29:29] Speaker 2: what you mean to? You explain it to those of
[29:32] Speaker 2: us who are not. Lawyers you're actually saying that the
[29:34] Speaker 2: courts are actually issuing a set of rules and say
[29:39] Speaker 2: these are the rules you must use when you are
[29:41] Speaker 2: examining these. Cases isn't that what the methodology.
[29:44] Speaker 10: Is that's. Right they're basically setting for it the criteria
[29:49] Speaker 10: or the approach to interpreting The Second. Amendment because there's
[29:51] Speaker 10: two things to keep in, Mind. TOM a lot of
[29:53] Speaker 10: people say that The Second, amendment the right to keep
[29:56] Speaker 10: in their, arms codifies codifies a pre existing, right one
[30:00] Speaker 10: hundred percent. Correct The Supreme court has repeatedly said that
[30:03] Speaker 10: The Second amendment codified a right that we already. Had
[30:07] Speaker 10: it just put it down on. Taper so the question,
[30:09] Speaker 10: is if you're going to codify a pre existing, right
[30:12] Speaker 10: you have to go back in. Time tom historically and
[30:15] Speaker 10: understand what exactly was the scope of the right that
[30:20] Speaker 10: was basically being. Codified so you have to go back
[30:22] Speaker 10: to before seventeen ninety one and try to understand when
[30:24] Speaker 10: the founding fathers wrote The Second, amendment what were they
[30:27] Speaker 10: trying to, protect what were they not trying to? Protect
[30:30] Speaker 10: and that's why this new, methodology which is not really,
[30:33] Speaker 10: new it's From, hiller but they clarified. That it, Says,
[30:35] Speaker 10: look you start with the plain text of The Second,
[30:37] Speaker 10: amendment the right of the people to keep in their
[30:39] Speaker 10: arm shall not be shall not be. Infringed then you
[30:42] Speaker 10: define every term what is to, bear which means to,
[30:45] Speaker 10: carry what is to, keep which means to. Possess who
[30:47] Speaker 10: are the, people they're All american. Citizens what are? Arms,
[30:51] Speaker 10: well it's any in the commused offensive or, defensively or
[30:53] Speaker 10: anything that facilitates armed self defense isn't armed under the plain.
[30:56] Speaker 10: Text then once a modern dy gun control LAW tom
[31:00] Speaker 10: is covered by those, definitions by those, terms the bruises
[31:03] Speaker 10: to the government to show, historically if there's historical laws
[31:07] Speaker 10: on the books going all the way, back that would
[31:10] Speaker 10: sort of car out an. Exception so the EXAMPLE i
[31:12] Speaker 10: like to GIVE tom is we know for a fact
[31:14] Speaker 10: that the right to keep environments does not protect the
[31:17] Speaker 10: right to commit cold blood and. Murder but how do
[31:19] Speaker 10: we actually know? That think about, That how do we know.
[31:21] Speaker 10: That the answer, is we know that historically that before
[31:24] Speaker 10: the Second man was, adopted at the time the second
[31:26] Speaker 10: amend was, adopted and after the second one was adopted through,
[31:28] Speaker 10: today the right to keep en barraums does not allow
[31:31] Speaker 10: you to.
[31:31] Speaker 11: Go out and commit murder with a.
[31:33] Speaker 10: Gun so that would be an example of using history
[31:35] Speaker 10: to draw an exception to The.
[31:37] Speaker 11: Plaintech and you're.
[31:38] Speaker 10: Right this whole, methodology this approached the burden shifting to the,
[31:41] Speaker 10: government forcing the government to prove historically that they are
[31:44] Speaker 10: exception is real and their modernity gun control law falls
[31:47] Speaker 10: within an exception of THE. Plaintex all that is mission,
[31:49] Speaker 10: critical and if the methodology is favorable to The Second,
[31:52] Speaker 10: amendent it means we win virtually every Single Second amendent
[31:55] Speaker 10: case and knock out all the gun laws In america
[31:58] Speaker 10: except those that say you cannot miss you guns and
[32:00] Speaker 10: or if you're a violent danger to. Others all, Right.
[32:03] Speaker 2: So explain this to, me BECAUSE i think What i'm
[32:06] Speaker 2: hearing people say about the third. Circuit, yeah In New.
[32:10] Speaker 2: Jersey this applies In New jersey and all the three
[32:13] Speaker 2: states in the, circuit is that people shouldn't rush out
[32:16] Speaker 2: to buy an ar or the magazines because is it
[32:20] Speaker 2: a mandate that has to be.
[32:21] Speaker 10: Issued, well this is kind of a little gets a little,
[32:26] Speaker 10: nerdy and WHAT i recommend that people do is that
[32:28] Speaker 10: they pick up the phone and they call it The
[32:30] Speaker 10: Firearms Posse coalition or the other organizations evolved and just
[32:33] Speaker 10: simply ask them what do they. Recommend the bottom line
[32:37] Speaker 10: is this that after The court Of appeals issues this,
[32:40] Speaker 10: opinion at some point a mandate. Issues now what the
[32:43] Speaker 10: mandate is is a fancy word that just says The
[32:46] Speaker 10: Third circuit is now done with the. Case they're sending
[32:49] Speaker 10: it back down to the lower courts for the entry
[32:51] Speaker 10: of a judgment and all this other good, stuff and
[32:53] Speaker 10: they're done with. It they're basically, Saying, okay.
[32:55] Speaker 11: We've issued our, decision we made the.
[32:56] Speaker 10: Decision we're moving on. Now the truth is, really at
[33:00] Speaker 10: this point everything in The Third circuit that violates that
[33:04] Speaker 10: opinion is problematic for this point of view of the.
[33:06] Speaker 10: Government but on the other, hand you are in sort
[33:08] Speaker 10: of anti gun jurisic and Like New, jersey and nothing
[33:11] Speaker 10: would prevent the government from trying to harass gun owners just.
[33:14] Speaker 11: Because and, again so.
[33:16] Speaker 10: That's why, yes once the mandate, ISSUES i, think technically,
[33:19] Speaker 10: SPEAKING i don't see How New jersey has a leg
[33:21] Speaker 10: to stand on in terms of enforcing these. Laws that's
[33:23] Speaker 10: their circus that are. Unconstitutional but AGAIN i would check
[33:27] Speaker 10: with either you, know the relevant lawyers for your gun rights,
[33:30] Speaker 10: groups with your gun, club or with again the Fire
[33:32] Speaker 10: N's Policy coalition and make sure that you're aligned with.
[33:35] Speaker 10: Them because of, course technically, speaking when you win a
[33:39] Speaker 10: case like, this it only binds the parties. Involved so
[33:42] Speaker 10: if you're not a member of the Fire N's Policy,
[33:44] Speaker 10: coalition there's an argument that maybe you're not. Covered but
[33:47] Speaker 10: the truth IS i Think New jersey is dead meat
[33:50] Speaker 10: and as a legal, matter they cannot get around. This
[33:53] Speaker 10: but you don't want to be harassed in the. Process
[33:55] Speaker 10: does that make? Sense, yeah, no that makes perfect. Sense
[33:57] Speaker 10: you don't want to be first in line on this.
[33:59] Speaker 2: Thing just let it percolate a little, bit, right because
[34:02] Speaker 2: if you buy the gun and.
[34:03] Speaker 10: They arrest, you, say, oh we don't think it's finding,
[34:05] Speaker 10: yet well then they can arrest you and then you'll
[34:07] Speaker 10: get to hire a, lawyer than the lawyer will circus opinion.
[34:10] Speaker 11: That you'll win the, meeting but then you'll have to
[34:12] Speaker 11: go through the.
[34:12] Speaker 10: Headache so avoid the, headache right all.
[34:14] Speaker 2: Right one other, thing we just got THE us government
[34:17] Speaker 2: in The department Of justice just withdrew ITS i guess
[34:22] Speaker 2: opposition to an, appeal basically saying that now if you're
[34:26] Speaker 2: a member of The Fire's Policy coalition or The Second Amendment,
[34:29] Speaker 2: foundation you may now carry in a post. Office unlet's
[34:32] Speaker 2: do eli military base or in a federal. Building this
[34:35] Speaker 2: is a really interesting. Thing but people are, saying, well
[34:37] Speaker 2: why DO i have to belong to those groups to
[34:41] Speaker 2: have this second member right to carry into a post?
[34:44] Speaker 2: Office but it's kind of the. Court they're issuing very
[34:48] Speaker 2: narrow opinions right, now aren't.
[34:49] Speaker 10: They, yeah, well this is really a constitutional. Matter if
[34:53] Speaker 10: you look at THE Us, constitution increase three branch of the.
[34:56] Speaker 10: Government article three creates the, judiciary meaning the federal, court
[35:00] Speaker 10: including THE Us Supreme, court and In article three it
[35:02] Speaker 10: says that courts only have jurisdiction to resolve what are
[35:05] Speaker 10: known as cases or, controversies which means you actually have
[35:08] Speaker 10: a fight between two people or more, over some, issue
[35:11] Speaker 10: the Fire Arms POLICY colist and The second amend Of
[35:13] Speaker 10: foundation on behalf of their current. Members then future members
[35:16] Speaker 10: brought the lawsuit against the Federal grumman saying we should
[35:19] Speaker 10: be able to carry guns and post, offices and the
[35:21] Speaker 10: court agreed with. That but the court only has authority
[35:24] Speaker 10: to enter a judgment for the people in front of,
[35:26] Speaker 10: it the specific. Party and because the parties in front
[35:29] Speaker 10: of them are The Firearms Policy coalis and The Second
[35:31] Speaker 10: Amendment foundation and current and future members of, those that's
[35:35] Speaker 10: the only people that the court has jurisdiction and authority
[35:38] Speaker 10: to like, protect if you know What i'm, saying because.
[35:40] Speaker 11: Of article three of The.
[35:41] Speaker 10: Constitution so if you're not a member OF fpc.
[35:44] Speaker 11: Or future you, know you can join today and.
[35:46] Speaker 10: You'll be COVERED, fpc R, Scf but if you're, not technically,
[35:49] Speaker 10: speaking you're not protected by the judgment because you're not a.
[35:51] Speaker 10: Party and the reason why you're not a party is
[35:53] Speaker 10: because again Under article three of The, constitution federal courts
[35:56] Speaker 10: only have the jurisdiction to resolve issues for the parties
[35:59] Speaker 10: to in front of. Them they can't set forth like
[36:02] Speaker 10: a national policy like they're The. Congress, Hey, MARK i don't.
[36:05] Speaker 2: KNOW i, MEAN i recommend your channel all the time on,
[36:07] Speaker 2: YouTube just go to four box Of. Steiner but my
[36:11] Speaker 2: question for you is are you having as much fun
[36:13] Speaker 2: as it looks like you.
[36:14] Speaker 10: Are, well it's a little stressful because ALTHOUGH i enjoy
[36:18] Speaker 10: WHAT i, DO i do recognize that WHEN i say
[36:21] Speaker 10: things and WHEN i you, know WHEN i write my
[36:23] Speaker 10: scholarship AND i write my lawry, articles very important people
[36:26] Speaker 10: are reading those things and following WHAT i. Say so
[36:28] Speaker 10: it's very important to WHAT i say and WHAT i
[36:30] Speaker 10: write is accurate and precise BECAUSE i know a lot
[36:33] Speaker 10: of people that are in positions of influence are paying
[36:36] Speaker 10: close attention to WHAT i. Say SO i take that
[36:38] Speaker 10: job very. Seriously SO i have a great, time AND
[36:41] Speaker 10: i want to win For. America but you, know OBVIOUSLY
[36:45] Speaker 10: i don't get it anything, wrong SO i got to
[36:47] Speaker 10: be focused on, it and that brings a little amount
[36:49] Speaker 10: of stress to WHAT i do because every, word every,
[36:51] Speaker 10: comma every footnote can have real. Ramification So i'm very.
[36:56] Speaker 10: Careful but SO i have a great time doing. It
[36:57] Speaker 10: BUT i also RECOGNIZE i have a serious job to
[37:00] Speaker 10: do in my, mind and that's What i'm trying to.
[37:02] Speaker 2: Do we are fortunate to have. YOU i appreciate you
[37:05] Speaker 2: taking time to join us, here AND i love what
[37:07] Speaker 2: you do on the channel AND i recommend it. Highly
[37:10] Speaker 2: Mark smith from The Four boxes dying and look you
[37:13] Speaker 2: go and keep this. Up, man we need you doing this.
[37:14] Speaker 10: Stuff, well you know soon but soon, soon figures Cross,
[37:18] Speaker 10: Tom i'm going to put myself out of a job
[37:20] Speaker 10: and you won't need me. Anymore, oh that's highly.
[37:22] Speaker 2: UNLIKE i don't think they're ever going to give up
[37:24] Speaker 2: trying to take away our.
[37:25] Speaker 11: Guns, well we can only.
[37:27] Speaker 2: Hope all, right take care Of, mark you'd be. GOOD
[37:31] Speaker 2: i tell you What Mark smith. Is he has quoted a.
[37:35] Speaker 2: Lot his articles he, writes like for The Harvard Law,
[37:38] Speaker 2: journal are actually used in briefs and cited for The Supreme.
[37:42] Speaker 2: Court it's an amazing stuff and he has a way
[37:45] Speaker 2: of making things. Understandable NOW i do. Understand people, say,
[37:49] Speaker 2: WELL i have to run him like at eighty percent
[37:51] Speaker 2: speed SO i can understand what he's saying on his. Videos,
[37:54] Speaker 2: hey do what you got to. Do he is full
[37:56] Speaker 2: of information and he does have a way of explaining.
[37:59] Speaker 2: It you may have to watch a few of his
[38:01] Speaker 2: videos to, Say, Okay i'm starting to understand what he's saying,
[38:04] Speaker 2: now but if you truly want to be one of
[38:07] Speaker 2: the most most informed people On Second amendment litigation and
[38:13] Speaker 2: the theory and the plan and what's actually going, on
[38:18] Speaker 2: you want to read his stuff because people, say, well you,
[38:20] Speaker 2: know we should just Go, yeah that's not how it.
[38:23] Speaker 2: Works as even explaining you got to win this issue
[38:27] Speaker 2: to set up the next. ISSUE i, mean thirty years,
[38:30] Speaker 2: ago people were in that world were telling, me, look
[38:33] Speaker 2: this is basic civil rights. Litigation we have to start
[38:37] Speaker 2: working at the basic level and win that, one and
[38:39] Speaker 2: then we. Build so we get The heller, decision we
[38:41] Speaker 2: get The brewing, decision we get you, know each one
[38:45] Speaker 2: is a building block to the. Next you, know back
[38:47] Speaker 2: then they knew they were going after the air fifteen,
[38:49] Speaker 2: bands but they couldn't do it thirty years. Ago but
[38:52] Speaker 2: you know, what that thirty years at work on this
[38:54] Speaker 2: is paying off and we are going to get. THAT i,
[38:57] Speaker 2: mean we are going to win this at The Supreme.
[38:59] Speaker 2: Court these air fifteen bands and these bands on semi automatic,
[39:03] Speaker 2: firearms they're all going down in every, state all fifty
[39:08] Speaker 2: states of the, Country they're all going. Down it's gonna
[39:12] Speaker 2: be a new. DAY i think it's time for a
[39:13] Speaker 2: wellness check on the gun band. Groups i'm not sure
[39:17] Speaker 2: they're healthy right. Now they may be distressed a. Bit
[39:28] Speaker 2: not put me, Here Tom, Gresham we'll take your, know your,
[39:31] Speaker 2: calls your range, reports anytime you. Want eight sixty Six
[39:34] Speaker 2: talk gun Or Tom talk. Gun are you getting ready
[39:37] Speaker 2: for hunting? Season because it's coming up faster than you
[39:40] Speaker 2: are ready For generally most of us sneaks up on
[39:42] Speaker 2: us and, go oh, wow it's time. Again yeah it,
[39:44] Speaker 2: Is and depending on where you, are it could start
[39:47] Speaker 2: as early as next, month certainly In september in many.
[39:50] Speaker 2: Areas i'm doing big game. Hunting question for, you how
[39:54] Speaker 2: do you? Practice how do you get? Ready how do
[39:56] Speaker 2: you get your rifle? Ready how do you get your
[39:58] Speaker 2: your gear? Ready and how do you get you? Ready
[40:03] Speaker 2: what do you do at the? Range or even not
[40:07] Speaker 2: at the, range didn't have to be at the. Range
[40:09] Speaker 2: you may be doing dry fire practice with your big game,
[40:11] Speaker 2: rifle which is a really good, idea a practicing going
[40:15] Speaker 2: from standing to sitting to prone or whatever and getting
[40:18] Speaker 2: down in that position and getting a shot off. QUICKLY
[40:21] Speaker 2: i swear more animals owe their lives to hunters that
[40:24] Speaker 2: can't get on target and pull the trigger. QUICKLY i
[40:27] Speaker 2: mean they're thirty seconds or a, minute trying to find the,
[40:30] Speaker 2: animal trying to get the safety, off trying to find
[40:32] Speaker 2: it in the, scope and on and on and. On, no, no, no,
[40:34] Speaker 2: no from the time you see it to the time
[40:37] Speaker 2: you get a shot off shouldn't be more than ten seconds.
[40:40] Speaker 2: PERIOD i, mean you got to know how to get
[40:43] Speaker 2: into position and get a shot. Off, Okay i'd love
[40:46] Speaker 2: to know what do you? Do how do you get
[40:48] Speaker 2: ready or do you not do? Anything do you say
[40:51] Speaker 2: what's always good? Enough and, look if you're shooting out
[40:53] Speaker 2: of a tree stand or a box blind and maybe
[40:57] Speaker 2: it's not a big. Deal it kind of depends on
[40:58] Speaker 2: where you are and what you. DO i did want to,
[41:01] Speaker 2: mention going back to our last, interview the decision by
[41:07] Speaker 2: The Third circuit on air fifteens goes all the way
[41:11] Speaker 2: back to The heller, decision which says you cannot ban
[41:13] Speaker 2: guns that are in common use for lawful purposes such
[41:19] Speaker 2: as self defense or what some of the courts have
[41:23] Speaker 2: been doing to be able to finesse a ban is to, say,
[41:27] Speaker 2: WELL aar fifteens are not in common use for self. Defense,
[41:32] Speaker 2: well that's not what The heller decision, says it says
[41:36] Speaker 2: in common use for lawful, purposes and then give self
[41:38] Speaker 2: defense as one, example but it's not limited to. That
[41:42] Speaker 2: and then the course would, say, well they're not really
[41:45] Speaker 2: used for self defense because people aren't being shot with.
[41:47] Speaker 2: Them people aren't using their air fifties to shoot. People
[41:51] Speaker 2: that's not what it means to use a gun in
[41:53] Speaker 2: self defense owning a. Gun The Third circuit ruled simply
[41:59] Speaker 2: owning a gun for self defense is using a gun
[42:04] Speaker 2: for self. Defense and now we have more than thirty
[42:07] Speaker 2: MILLION aar fifteens and a whole bunch more other semi
[42:10] Speaker 2: automatic rifles out. There that's certainly common. USE i guarantee.
[42:15] Speaker 2: You and the question is going to be are we
[42:17] Speaker 2: going to get that applied to handguns and? Shotguns, yeah we.
[42:20] Speaker 2: Are there's no way that they can say you can't
[42:23] Speaker 2: BAN ar fifteens or you can't ban semiotic, rifles but
[42:27] Speaker 2: you can ban semiato. Handguns that's not gonna. Fly so
[42:32] Speaker 2: those are going to go away as. Well, now whether
[42:35] Speaker 2: or not that gets included in the case that The
[42:38] Speaker 2: Supreme court's going to, HEAR i don't. Know and, Yes
[42:43] Speaker 2: i'm like the rest of YOU i am impatient AND
[42:45] Speaker 2: i want it all. Now But i've also learned through
[42:47] Speaker 2: decades of doing this that we don't get it all.
[42:50] Speaker 2: Now we lost our rights, incrementally and we are regaining
[42:55] Speaker 2: our rights. Incrementally And i'll take the. Win it may
[43:01] Speaker 2: not be the whole, wind But i'll take whatever WIN
[43:04] Speaker 2: i can, get And i'll come back and try to
[43:06] Speaker 2: get some. More two. Things one is you'll notice that
[43:10] Speaker 2: The Fire's Policy coalition and The Second Moment foundation are
[43:13] Speaker 2: at the core of some of. These THE nra actually
[43:16] Speaker 2: was the entity that had the lawsuit at the Third.
[43:20] Speaker 2: Circuit you need to belong to these, groups one or
[43:24] Speaker 2: more or all of. Them you just. Do you just
[43:28] Speaker 2: need to put your money. Up that's called putting your
[43:31] Speaker 2: money where your mouth. Is because shooting off your mouth
[43:33] Speaker 2: about second movements shout out being friends without putting money.
[43:37] Speaker 2: Up spare, me you're not doing a darning. Thing you're
[43:40] Speaker 2: not helping us at. On give me a call an
[43:42] Speaker 2: eighty six y six talk. Gun how do you get
[43:43] Speaker 2: ready for hunting? Season, also do you belong to the national?
[43:47] Speaker 2: Groups and if you don't tell, me, Why, Okay i'll
[43:53] Speaker 2: give you the. Floor I'm Tom, greshould be right.
[43:55] Speaker 5: Back

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