# Why Colleen Hoover's 'Verity' Needed a Campier Adaptation

An episode of [It Was A Book First](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1896902131), 7 Oct 2026, 1 h 13 min.

Audio: https://episodes.captivate.fm/episode/7741ba88-f3ae-494d-a6d4-46f79476c503.mp3

This week, Sophie and Rudi discuss “Verity,” a new film adaptation of Colleen Hoover’s twisty psychological thriller that stars Anne Hathaway, Dakota Johnson and Josh Hartnett. The Amazon MGM movie, which opened at No. 1 at the box office this past weekend, stars Hathaway (“The Odyssey”) as Verity Crawford, the writer of a famous thriller book series, whose husband (Josh Hartnett, “Oppenheimer”) enlists a younger writer, Lowen Ashleigh (Johnson, “Fifty Shades of Grey”), to help Verity finish the popular series after a car accident leaves her unable to write. Before they get to the book and film, Sophie recommends reading journalist Patrick Radden Keefe’s new book "London Falling” (00:01:38) and Rudi shares what it was like to spend a week seeing three pop star arena shows — Charli XCX, Phoebe Bridgers and Olivia Rodrigo — all of whom have music in page-to-screen adaptations this year (00:03:41). They begin their “Verity” chat by sharing their overall feelings on the film (00:09:50) and dig into the Colleen Hoover phenomenon and her growing cinematic universe (00:13:25). Then they discuss director Michael Showalter, who previously collaborated with Hathaway on the adaptation of “The Idea of You,” writer Nick Antosca (“Cape Fear”) and the film’s development (00:17:18) before diving in-depth into “Verity’s” twisty plot (00:19:43). Throughout their conversation, Sophie explains why this is a mostly faithful adaptation of the 2018 novel that still managed to leave out a few key details (and invent some unnecessary ones). They both share what they found frustrating about the film, what made them laugh, and whether or not “Verity” is as campy as it thinks it is. They debate the merits of Johnson as an actor (00:24:33) and fawn over the real-life house where much of the movie is set (00:29:19) before getting into the manuscript that sets the twists in motion (00:33:02) and the letter (00:52:16) that has ignited debate among fans (are you Team Manuscript or Team Letter?) and Hoover herself (00:54:16). Rudi shares his theory on a more interesting idea for an alternate ending (00:58:08), they briefly compare “Verity” to “The Housemaid” adaptation from 2025 (01:04:41) and discuss how Hathaway’s performance compares to the other four movies she starred in this year. Finally, Sophie shares her pick for what she enjoyed more: Reading Hoover’s writing or watching the film (01:09:50). Next week, we’re discussing the horror movie “Other Mommy,” which adapts Josh Malerman’s 2024 novel “Incidents Around the House.” The film, which stars Jessica Chastain, Jay Duplass, and Arabella Olivia Clark, opens in theaters this weekend. It Was A Book First is the podcast about new book-to-screen adaptations. Subscribe now to get new episodes delivered weekly on Wednesdays. Follow us on Instagram: @itwasabookfirstpod TikTok: @itwasabookfirst YouTube: @itwasabookfirstpodcast Email: itwasabookfirst@gmail.com Hosts and producers: Sophie Vershbow and Rudi Greenberg Editing: Rudi Greenberg Social media: Sophie Vershbow Music: Cliff Blum and John Connelly; music production: Kevin Pons Logo: Trisha Louise Prieto Website: Kevin Pfab

## Transcript

Sophie Vershbow (00:10)
I'm Sophie and I love books.
Rudi Greenberg (00:11)
I'm Rudi and I love movies, and this is It Was a Book First, the podcast about new book-to-screen adaptations. Today, we're discussing Call Her Daddy and Hot Ones. Just kidding. We're talking about Verity, a movie that does prominently feature Alex Cooper and Sean Evans hosting their shows. The twisty psychological thriller adapts Colleen Hoover's 2018 novel with stars Ann Hathaway, Dakota Johnson, and Josh Hartnett
Sophie Vershbow (00:38)
If you're new here, Rudi and I are culture reporters, and on this podcast, we discuss the page-to-screen adaptations that everyone's talking about. I read the book, we both watch the TV show or movie, and then we dissect the differences and what we thought of the new adaptation. And yes, that means there are going to be a lot of spoilers throughout this for both versions of Verity.
Rudi Greenberg (00:58)
Next week, we're discussing an actually scary movie, Other Mommy, which adapts Josh Malerman's 2024 novel Incidents Around the House. I'm holding it up here. The film, which stars Jessica Chastain, Jay DuPlas, and Arabella Olivia Clark, opens in theaters this weekend.
Sophie Vershbow (01:16)
I am absolutely terrified to see this this weekend. reminder to like, rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get podcasts. Follow us on Instagram at it was a bookfirst pod. Watch this episode on YouTube at It Wasabook First Podcast or visit our website at itwasabookfirst.com. Have a question for us or want to reach out about something, email us at itwasabookfirstpod at gmail.com.
Rudi Greenberg (01:38)
Before we dive into the Hooververse, Sophie, your background looks a little different today.
Sophie Vershbow (01:45)
My background definitely looks a little different. I did move about a week ago, which was very
Rudi Greenberg (01:49)
So exciting.
Sophie Vershbow (01:50)
exciting. Yes. My my new podcast background for our YouTube viewers is still pending. So I am just sitting in the middle of a large room.
Rudi Greenberg (01:59)
Well, I know you're a big consumer of audiobooks. So did you listen to any audiobooks not for the show to get you through your packing and and unpacking?
Sophie Vershbow (02:10)
Yes, I did a lot of listening for this show, but I also listened to London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe, who is yeah, he
Rudi Greenberg (02:17)
I've heard great things about this.
Sophie Vershbow (02:19)
is one of my absolute favorite narrative nonfiction writers. He is a writer for the New Yorker,
Sophie Vershbow (02:24)
you might have read some of his other books, Empire of Pain, which is about the Sackler dynasty, the family who invented Oxycotton. That is like a really, really maddening
Rudi Greenberg (02:32)
okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (02:34)
book that was turned into several series adaptations. there were like a couple like big opioid shows. I forget
Rudi Greenberg (02:40)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Sophie Vershbow (02:42)
exactly when those came out, but his book Say Nothing, which was about the troubles in Northern Ireland, was turned into, I believe, an FX Hulu series.
Rudi Greenberg (02:50)
Okay.
Sophie Vershbow (02:50)
And I am sure that London Falling will be turned into a miniseries as well. It is about a young man who dies in the River in the River Thames in London. And it's really a story about Russian oligarchs and this like hidden web of money in the UK. It is, I mean, I listened to it in like a day and a half packing. It reads like a a fiction book, but it is narrative nonfiction. His reporting is, I mean.
I don't know about you, Rudi. Like I have these authors where I'm like, maybe one day I'll be like one tenth as thorough and amazing as a reporter and he is one of them. So cannot recommend London Falling enough. Have you read any of those or interfaced with any of his work?
Rudi Greenberg (03:33)
No, no, but I've heard of him
and I know that he's like really acclaimed and that I probably should read some of his stuff.
Sophie Vershbow (03:39)
Yeah,
highly rack. And I feel like you have been just like in concert madness
these last couple of weeks.
Rudi Greenberg (03:44)
I had I
had a we I had a very like uncharacteristic for me kind of concert week. And and and look, I think some listeners may know that like while I've been writing about TV and movies for my entire career, I've really been primarily like a music writer when it comes to that, that side of what I do. I go to
Sophie Vershbow (04:04)
Rudi, how many concerts did you see last year?
Rudi Greenberg (04:06)
not as many as in the past. I did about 70, probably be around 75.
Sophie Vershbow (04:09)
Mm-hmm. Just a casual seventy.
Rudi Greenberg (04:11)
This year. Well, yeah, I've I've had years where it's a lot more.
Sophie Vershbow (04:14)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (04:14)
but this this past week, I went to three shows all at the same place, all at Capital One Arena, three big pop shows that I promise you do tie into this podcast because
Sophie Vershbow (04:25)
Okay.
Rudi Greenberg (04:27)
they all feature pop stars that either appear in or have music in page to screen, we'll say adaptations because one is not a book. So I'll I'll start out just talking about the first show I went to last
Monday on the twenty eighth of September. I saw Charlie XCX. again, these are all at Capitol One Arena in DC. So Charlie XCX will made the soundtrack for Wuthering Heights, which
Sophie Vershbow (04:52)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (04:53)
some listeners will know is the first episode of this podcast we ever recorded, never to be released.
Sophie Vershbow (04:58)
Never.
Rudi Greenberg (04:59)
and also appeared in several other films this year. So she actually played two songs from the Wuthering Heights soundtrack, not
Sophie Vershbow (05:07)
Nice.
Rudi Greenberg (05:08)
Chains of Love.
Which like should have been performed. I'm sort of confused why it wasn't, but she did do house, which had like fireworks in the arena. It was so cool and so caught me off guard. Like just fireworks shooting up above her. It's a really, really
Sophie Vershbow (05:26)
Nice.
Rudi Greenberg (05:27)
cool performance. This is a pretty big show for her, and like honestly, kind of comes close to the kind of show she mocked in her mockumentary the moment, which is.
Kind of about
Sophie Vershbow (05:37)
weird.
Rudi Greenberg (05:38)
staging like an Eras Tour like
Sophie Vershbow (05:40)
Yeah, yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (05:41)
concert. And this is like not quite that, but there's elements where I was like, does she like realize this a little bit? but fun show. She was maybe a little hungover from performing at the VMAs and partying with Madonna the night prior. So we'll we'll just leave that
Sophie Vershbow (05:57)
Who wouldn't be?
Rudi Greenberg (05:58)
there. Then on Tuesday, the very next night, I went on a total lark, very last minute.
kind of thing to go see Phoebe Bridgers at the same arena. So Phoebe Bridgers is in a movie called Primetime, which is the Lance Oppenheim's she
Sophie Vershbow (06:15)
She's in prime time?
Rudi Greenberg (06:16)
is so Lance Oppenheim's film about Chris Hansen and To Catch a Predator, which was a show that essentially lured sexual predators to meeting a young decoy. And Phoebe Bridgers plays one of the decoys.
Sophie Vershbow (06:34)
I had no idea.
Rudi Greenberg (06:35)
and also has a song called On Video that plays over the credits, which is kind of like a grungy rock song. And so this is based on an article. So technically not based on a book, but we'll we'll count it. the movie that is. And she played on video during the show, which was really cool. One of my favorite performances. This show was no phones. So, like just 20,000 people just like vibing like the good old days.
Sophie Vershbow (07:00)
Nice.
Rudi Greenberg (07:01)
which was actually like
Really cool. Like I look, I have no problem with people taking videos and photos at shows. I do it all the time, but there was something really nice about everyone just kind of like living in the moment and experiencing this
Sophie Vershbow (07:14)
Totally.
Rudi Greenberg (07:15)
thing all at the same time. So also you don't really know what the show looks like going in. And she's got some really cool production stuff, a big band. It's a really fun show and and and she's great. And and then I went to I think the biggest.
Of the three on on Sunday night. This was Olivia Rodrigo. now her
Sophie Vershbow (07:37)
So jealous.
Rudi Greenberg (07:38)
song, The Cure, is in Practical Magic 2. It is also the centerpiece of and really the special effect of her show. she also wrote an original song for the Last Hunger Games movie. So she's she's got some experience with the with the book to screen adaptations. This is just like a super fun show. Like such a cool stage design. It's a really
big open stage with that is full of flowers. And then throughout the show, the flowers kind of get taken away as we move through different seasons. So each like sort
Sophie Vershbow (08:10)
Well.
Rudi Greenberg (08:10)
of like quarter of the show is divided into a season. And then the cure, which as I mentioned is in Practical Magic 2, is really like the highlight of the show. She's on a B stage wearing this like white dress made out of paper like material. You may have seen this on social media.
Sophie Vershbow (08:25)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (08:26)
And then near the end of the song it starts raining.
And her dress disintegrates to reveal like a red, maybe blood soaked, I don't know, dress. under that. And it's a very cool moment. This show is just like pure fun. It's it's really more of like a rock show than than a pop show. She's got an all-female band, I think 10 people on on stage at one point, and just like an absolute blast. I went with my wife Lauren and one of our friends from
college and and we just had a great time. So yeah, I really recommend if you can, they're they're all on tour right now. Go catch if you can find tickets somehow, especially Olivia Rodrigo.
Sophie Vershbow (09:07)
A very casual, easy recommendation.
I'll head on over to Ticketmaster for that one.
Rudi Greenberg (09:13)
I will say I was able to get Phoebe Bridgers tickets day of. So it is possible.
Sophie Vershbow (09:16)
Okay.
Rudi Greenberg (09:17)
They they do some brief releases. So you might be able to get them. but yeah, uncharacteristic for me to go see like a bunch of pop girlies all in the same week. I also saw Sylvanesso
Sophie Vershbow (09:25)
Embrace it, Rudi.
Rudi Greenberg (09:27)
last night, who has a song in Practical Magic too. So it's it's a bit of a bit of an interesting run I've been on. But tomorrow, I actually return back to my natural habitat because I'm
traveling to Richmond, Virginia for a night to go see fish. So I contain I
contain multitudes. So
Sophie Vershbow (09:42)
Perfect. You sure do.
Rudi Greenberg (09:44)
I gotta go back to my old men making improvised jam band music
Sophie Vershbow (09:48)
Wow.
Rudi Greenberg (09:49)
on stage.
Sophie Vershbow (09:50)
And talking about people who contain multitudes, the characters in this book
Rudi Greenberg (09:55)
What a transition into Verity. So Verity stars Anne Hathaway as Verity Crawford, the writer of a famous thriller book series whose husband, played by Josh Hartnett, enlists a younger writer, Loan Ashley, one of the many amazing names in this in this book and movie, played by Dakota Johnson to help Verity finish the popular series after a car accident leaves her unable to write. Sophie.
Before we dive into a little bit of the history of this book and movie, what'd you think of Verity? Your first Colleen Hoover experience and also my first Colleen Hoover experience.
Sophie Vershbow (10:36)
Yeah, so I should say I am coming at this as we both are as Colleen Hoover Virgins, which seems like kind of, I mean,
Rudi Greenberg (10:42)
Ha ha.
Sophie Vershbow (10:43)
for me as like a person who worked in publishing, like almost tough at
Rudi Greenberg (10:45)
What a way to put it.
Sophie Vershbow (10:46)
this point. like, wow, I I I was pure before this whole experience. No, I'm gonna be really honest with you, Rudi. I came into this week expecting to be like, this was a horrible book, this was a horrible
Rudi Greenberg (10:57)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (10:58)
movie, I wasted my time, and I kind of had fun. Like, I don't
As I'm gonna say a lot of times, like I don't think either one's good or like well
Rudi Greenberg (11:07)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (11:08)
made, but I had a lot more fun this week than I had for the love hypothesis. I will say that. And so I'm
Rudi Greenberg (11:16)
Wow.
Sophie Vershbow (11:16)
really excited to kind of get into what I think works and doesn't work because I don't think that these are all bad in the way I was sort of expecting.
Rudi Greenberg (11:25)
Sure.
Sure. Sure. Yeah, I'm I didn't read the book. I just watched the movie, although I heard about the book from my wife who did read the book and wants everyone to know it's the only Colleen Hoover book she's read and probably
Sophie Vershbow (11:39)
Ha ha ha.
Rudi Greenberg (11:40)
the only one she will read. She has seen the other movie adaptations, which we'll we'll talk about in in a minute. I thought it was okay. I I don't think this
Sophie Vershbow (11:49)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (11:49)
is a awful movie, I don't think this is a good movie.
I think it's it's trash, but it's not like the worst trash that you've ever seen. it's not quite as campy as it thinks it is. It's or it should be. It's not
Sophie Vershbow (12:03)
Should it should be campier.
Rudi Greenberg (12:05)
quite as funny as it should be. It's not as scary as it should be. It's not as erotic as it as it should be. it's just kind of there. And
Sophie Vershbow (12:16)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (12:17)
I think my guess is ultimately that the writing is what kind of
Sophie Vershbow (12:23)
So yeah, let's talk a little bit about the source
Rudi Greenberg (12:23)
sullied this a bit, but let's let's talk about the book.
Sophie Vershbow (12:27)
material. Yeah, so this is what we would call a psychological romantic thriller. You know, you
Rudi Greenberg (12:32)
Okay.
Sophie Vershbow (12:32)
would ask me at one point, I think over text, you know, like, this is a romance. I was like, this is this is not a romance book. Like there is a romantic plot line and there's a lot of sex, but this is a fucked up psychological romantic thriller. So this book is very interesting as a background. It was self published by Colleen Hoover in 2018. She is really like,
A ragster Rich's story. She was working as a WIC counselor in Texas with three
Rudi Greenberg (12:57)
wow.
Sophie Vershbow (12:58)
kids and a husband in a single Y trailer and started just writing. And her books kind of really found an audience through self-publishing. Her first book hit the New York Times bestseller list seven months after publication, just on its own, which is really impressive. But
Ultimately, Verity and a lot of her other books have been republished by mainstream publishers.
Rudi Greenberg (13:18)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Vershbow (13:19)
So this was republished in 2021 by Grand Central Publishing, which is part of Hichette. Colleen Hoover, and this book, as the number one of all of them, really went viral on book talk during the pandemic. So during
Rudi Greenberg (13:32)
Okay.
Sophie Vershbow (13:32)
COVID, Colleen Hoover just exploded in popularity. And
Rudi Greenberg (13:37)
Do we know why?
Sophie Vershbow (13:38)
I her books are very.
Polarizing. They have very controversial
Rudi Greenberg (13:43)
Sure.
Sophie Vershbow (13:44)
characters. They have big plot twists and cliffhangers
Rudi Greenberg (13:49)
Right.
Sophie Vershbow (13:50)
and things, but
Rudi Greenberg (13:52)
The theme seems to be that these are about women where something bad happens. And maybe they fall
Sophie Vershbow (14:01)
Sure.
Rudi Greenberg (14:01)
in love, maybe they don't. But there's always some
Sophie Vershbow (14:06)
You know.
Rudi Greenberg (14:07)
bad thing that happens that's like tragic. And then maybe there's love at the end of the tunnel.
Sophie Vershbow (14:14)
Sure. I guess like I can't really think of the love plot line in this between the Dakota Johnson and the Josh Hartner characters as anything.
Rudi Greenberg (14:20)
I mean there is one, but yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (14:24)
I mean, her books have sold tens of millions of copies. And I think that when people think about book talk and about the power of it, this is an author that very much gets lumped in as like the ultimate name. There are Colleen section
Rudi Greenberg (14:35)
Sure, sure.
Sophie Vershbow (14:37)
Hoover sections of bookstores at this point. These
Rudi Greenberg (14:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (14:40)
books are
sell like hot kicks. And I think that part of what people react to in terms of judging the quality of the writing is like, why is something this sort of half baked so popular? And I think
Rudi Greenberg (14:52)
Mm, mm.
Sophie Vershbow (14:52)
that Colleen Hoover has sort of become a stand in for a lot of the books that have become popular from Book Talk. And to be clear, Book Talk has also made like classic novels. If people are reading like the Master of Margarita right now, like it's not all trash, but
I do think that Colleen Hoover very much has become like a named stand-in for what people
Rudi Greenberg (15:10)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (15:10)
sort of view as like the problem with a community like that being such a sales driver.
Rudi Greenberg (15:15)
And there's a little bit of a meta commentary on that in this film, which
Sophie Vershbow (15:18)
Absolutely.
Rudi Greenberg (15:19)
I which I enjoyed and actually thought was was kind of clever. and so this she spent really the last several years working on adaptations of
Sophie Vershbow (15:29)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (15:30)
her books. So, you know, it ends it ends with us, right? Is the the one that of course is
Sophie Vershbow (15:32)
We're up to four now. It ends with us pieces of her.
Rudi Greenberg (15:38)
it ends with us is of course the one that has spurred a huge, you know, spurred a huge lawsuit and so much controversy and was a huge hit and really broke.
Broke the Colleen Hoover
Sophie Vershbow (15:45)
I will say
Rudi Greenberg (15:46)
Cinematic Universe open.
Sophie Vershbow (15:48)
That ends it ends with us has been controversial for a really long time. I mean, there was an it end which is about a story about domestic violence, and it
Rudi Greenberg (15:54)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (15:55)
ends with us had a coloring book. That was like the big scandal I remember was when who
Rudi Greenberg (15:59)
Did not know that.
Sophie Vershbow (16:00)
whatever I think St. Martin, whoever the publisher was
Rudi Greenberg (16:02)
Wow.
Sophie Vershbow (16:02)
for that one, released a c and they had to like take it down because people were like, Well, you released a coloring book about a book about domestic violence? Like, what are you talking about? So this woman has always been controversial.
Rudi Greenberg (16:10)
Okay. Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (16:13)
I think the depiction of the characters people view is controversial, and again.
I think this is an example of like these books don't matter unless they were this popular. No one would
Rudi Greenberg (16:22)
Right.
Sophie Vershbow (16:22)
care if so many people weren't reading them, but there's a lot of people that these are like the only books they read. And so it's become
Rudi Greenberg (16:28)
Yeah and
Sophie Vershbow (16:29)
a big cultural conversation in a way that I don't think it should all be put on Colleen Hoover, certainly.
Rudi Greenberg (16:34)
Sure. And so that was the big one. We got Regretting You last year. Earlier this year, we got Reminders of Him. Now we get Verity. There's also a very small series called Confess from 2017 that was really her first adaptation. And and now that she spent the last several years really working on adapting these books, she put out her first book in four years earlier this year called I think it's Woman Down.
She now says she's kind of taking a pause from doing these adaptations to focus on finishing some other
Sophie Vershbow (17:05)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (17:05)
books. So we might have a little bit of a pause of the Colleen Hoover cinematic universe. So if you've been loving these movies, enjoy. Yeah,
Sophie Vershbow (17:11)
She's running out of books. I mean, we're gonna hit the end of them eventually.
Rudi Greenberg (17:15)
you're gonna have to rewatch them until we get a new one. So this movie is directed
By Michael Showalter. This is an Amazon MGM film. We've mentioned Michael Schoalter on this podcast a couple of times when talking about this movie. He came up in the state, the comedy troupe with Michael Ian Black, Ken Marino, David Wayne. He co-starred in Wet Hot American Summer. His big break as a director was The Big Sick. He also has directed a couple of other adaptations, including The Idea of You in 2024 with Anne Hathaway. So they've worked together before.
He also directed spoiler alert, and then the eyes of Tammy Faye, which is a documentary adaptation. he also directed several episodes of the Dropout, the Hulu Elizabeth Holmes series that I know you love, Sophie.
Sophie Vershbow (18:02)
Yeah, wow, did not know that one. He is
Rudi Greenberg (18:05)
and this
Sophie Vershbow (18:06)
really truly one of my favorite pe I mean Wet Hot American Summer is one of my all-time favorite movies. I did not realize he directed The Big Sick, also like really up there for me. I mean, what a what range this man has. Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (18:17)
What an odd career.
this film was written by one of our really favorite writers to cover on this podcast, by which we mean absolutely not, Nick Antosca, who also wrote and showran Cape Fear, a series that we did not like. Go listen to our episode with Roxana Hadadi if you haven't. It's a really funny one. and Nick Antosca also co-wrote the movie Antlers, which is a horror film in 2021. So he was part of the team.
The production team that was trying to develop Verity back in 2020, it went through several writers before he ultimately was credited with the version we saw on the screen. Ann Hathaway and Michael Schoalter were announced in November of 2024. And then Josh Hartnett and Dakota Johnson followed a month later. They started filming in February of 2025, wrapped in April.
And it opened this past weekend at number one at the box office with $32.6 million in the US, $62.6 million worldwide, and trounced a Tom Cruise movie, Digger, which made $8 million and weirdly, actually has some similarities to this movie in Metanist that we'll we'll we'll discuss later. I'll I'll bring it up.
Sophie Vershbow (19:30)
Okay. I mean look, ask
me how unsurprised I am. Like people do not play about Colleen Hoover and I think I mean, I should check this, but I think objectively that Verity is the one that the most people have read.
Rudi Greenberg (19:43)
let's talk about the plot of Verity, which is a twisty plot, but is also kind of simplistic. Like it's it's it's a pretty easy story to follow, even though it does have a lot of twists. So
Sophie Vershbow (19:56)
Sure. I
can tell you, I I did not need to like go back and rewind any part of this audiobook. Like it was pretty
Rudi Greenberg (20:02)
Ha
Sophie Vershbow (20:02)
clear what was happening.
Rudi Greenberg (20:05)
this movie I think opens with a bunch of interviews with Verity and Hathaway as Verity on different shows. Like I think she's talking to Hoda Cobb at one point in the intro.
Sophie Vershbow (20:18)
I did laugh
out loud at so the the part I laughed. So I should say I laughed out loud several times during this movie. None of the times I think were intentional on the part of the writer or director.
Rudi Greenberg (20:29)
Yeah, I don't think so either.
Sophie Vershbow (20:30)
Most of my laughter was around its perception of the publishing industry and the fact
Rudi Greenberg (20:35)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (20:35)
that this woman in like five years has made what, like $40 million and is on hot ones? Like, what author is on hot ones?
Rudi Greenberg (20:41)
Yes. And
her like and her like home is like a a like a shrine to all of her work, which we'll get to. The home is we have a lot to talk about with the house.
Sophie Vershbow (20:48)
We have to talk about the production design, yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (20:51)
so this movie is really told through the lens of the Dakota Johnson character, Loan Ashley. What a name. All the names in
Sophie Vershbow (20:58)
What a name.
Rudi Greenberg (20:59)
this. I mean, apparently that's Colleen Hoover's thing, is like weird names, which like cool, I guess.
Sophie Vershbow (21:05)
But
I didn't know that Verity was a name. Like until I started reading the book, I thought Verity was just like a word. Like it just the word Verity.
Rudi Greenberg (21:12)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (21:12)
And then I was like, wait, so sorry, this is the character's name?
Rudi Greenberg (21:15)
Yeah, that's that's her name and Verity, Verity and Jeremy. almost a rhyme. Verity means what does Verity mean? I defined it. it means the quality
Sophie Vershbow (21:25)
It means like truthfulness.
Rudi Greenberg (21:27)
of being true or a fundamental and enduring truth, which is funny when you think about what this movie is is ultimately asking of its audience. so this this
Sophie Vershbow (21:33)
It's a Rudi, it's absurd. It's Absurd.
Rudi Greenberg (21:39)
movie starts with kind of Dakota Johnson's character, Loan, narrating
a little bit about her life and how she likes being in the city because she's from a small town and in the city she can be invisible. And then suddenly, and this is in my opinion, maybe like the best part of the movie. suddenly,
Sophie Vershbow (21:59)
Biggest jump scare.
Rudi Greenberg (22:00)
right, there is a jump scare where there's a loud noise and she is splattered with blood, and the camera kind of like eventually pans around or or flips around, and we see that like a guy has been a guy on a mo on a bike.
Has been hit by a car, and then a man played by Josh Hartnett walks up to Loan and says, Are you okay? Here, I think there's a bathroom in here where where we can get you cleaned up. And and we we don't at this point know who who this character is or or you know, they're just random people who just had a meet cute at a tragedy. and then they have this scene in the bathroom
where
Sophie Vershbow (22:41)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (22:42)
Josh Hartnett is being like this very nice, kind person offering to help her, you know, offers her her shirt. I believe Dakota Johnson at this point is we know that she's a writer that.
She has written some kind of like maybe middling horror books. Is that right? Right. She's got a
Sophie Vershbow (22:59)
She's yeah, she's like a not very successful writer. I mean, she's about to get evicted from her apartment. She's not very successful.
Rudi Greenberg (23:05)
she's got a big meeting though. Her agent is like, you gotta be on time to this important meeting, and I can't really tell you what it's about.
Sophie Vershbow (23:12)
What it is.
Rudi Greenberg (23:13)
And so she has this meeting with this, or she has this, she meets this Josh Hartnett character, and she introduces herself and says,
I'm Loan. And he just kinda like looks at her and goes and then moves on. And then she goes to what what publisher is she at?
Is it ha is it I can't pronounce it. She's at Hashette, yes.
Sophie Vershbow (23:34)
She's at she's at Hishette. Yeah, because he she says
Hashet. The woman who plays it says Heshat kind of weird in the movie and I clocked it. Yes, it's Hishette. Which makes sense because her book is public this book is published by Hashette.
Rudi Greenberg (23:41)
Okay. And so she shows up at Heshet, she goes to the Now, did you
clock that when you when she goes up to the front desk for her meeting, Colleen Hoover is the receptionist?
Sophie Vershbow (23:56)
Love that
that's great.
Rudi Greenberg (23:59)
It's weird that I knew that and you didn't. but I guess this also says
Sophie Vershbow (24:02)
It is. I appreciate that.
Rudi Greenberg (24:03)
a little bit about our different pop culture diets.
Sophie Vershbow (24:06)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (24:08)
and she goes to this meeting, and who is sitting on the other side of the table but Jeremy, the Josh
Sophie Vershbow (24:12)
Ta da Of course.
Rudi Greenberg (24:15)
Hartnett character. And we learn that after she signs an NDA, that Verity has been in a car accident. They're trying to keep it hidden from the press, and they need someone to come in.
and finish her series. And immediately Loan is like, no, I don't wanna do that. In
Sophie Vershbow (24:36)
No.
Rudi Greenberg (24:38)
the very disaffected Dakota Johnson way, which she is her mode is that the entire movie, which like we reference.
Sophie Vershbow (24:42)
Brudy, can I ask you a question?
What do you think of Dakota Johnson as an actress? Because I think, girl, give us nothing.
Rudi Greenberg (24:51)
So I kind of think Dakota Johnson is an elaborate bit.
Sophie Vershbow (24:56)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (24:56)
I do genuinely think that she knows what she's doing. And
Sophie Vershbow (25:00)
Kind of do too.
Rudi Greenberg (25:01)
I I think, like, look, she is a Nepo baby. She has been doing this for a long time. She she is capable of more than what she usually gives us. And here's why I say that. I don't know if you watched any of Saturday Night Live over the weekend, but she hosted Saturday Night Live and she had range.
In that she was being weird, she was being funny, she
Sophie Vershbow (25:23)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (25:24)
was doing things that you usually don't see her do because most of the time she is this like disaffected, quiet,
Sophie Vershbow (25:32)
She's so disaffected.
Rudi Greenberg (25:34)
same kind of thing in every movie. Almost like she does not care. And you see it when she's doing press tours and stuff as well. Like there's the famous, is it architectural digest where like
Sophie Vershbow (25:44)
Yeah,
the house tour.
Rudi Greenberg (25:45)
She's
like basically like, I just have this stuff. Like she I I love limes, but really the limes are just there for staging.
Sophie Vershbow (25:52)
She I like her as a celebrity. I find her
Rudi Greenberg (25:55)
Uh-huh.
Sophie Vershbow (25:56)
funny and entertaining. I honestly, when I see her sh show up in the building for a movie, I'm like, so it's not gonna be very good. I just
Rudi Greenberg (26:03)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (26:04)
don't think she, I don't think she's good at the materialist. I don't think she's good. I the Fifty Shade of Grey movies aren't good without her, but I don't think those are good. And I don't think she's very good at this. I think that what
Rudi Greenberg (26:15)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (26:16)
other I think too.
If we could have gotten someone with like a little bit more facial expressions. So I will say going into this, like my main critique of the movie is that I wanted more. Like
Rudi Greenberg (26:30)
Uh-huh.
Sophie Vershbow (26:31)
what Anne Hathaway was giving us. So Anne Hathaway plays the wife who can no longer complete the series. And what she is giving us is this very like pert like 1950s housewife haircut. Like
Rudi Greenberg (26:46)
Yes. Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (26:48)
She's potentially veering into something more bizarre and camp. And I just there are reasons, but
Rudi Greenberg (26:53)
Well, and there's reasons for that, as we'll get to. Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (26:56)
I just kind of wish that like everyone else had like turned it up a notch.
Rudi Greenberg (27:00)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (27:01)
And so for me, like Dakota Johnson is already like three notches below anyone else on screen normally. And
Rudi Greenberg (27:06)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sophie Vershbow (27:09)
so I just wanted more from that character.
Rudi Greenberg (27:13)
Yeah, and I just
I don't think that she wants to give more. I mean, like I always appreciate
Sophie Vershbow (27:18)
Give us more. No, I agree.
Rudi Greenberg (27:20)
her saying that like her favorite thing is sleep and she tries to get 14
Sophie Vershbow (27:24)
yes.
Rudi Greenberg (27:25)
hours of sleep a night, which I think is a joke, but because it comes from her, it's hard to tell if it's a joke.
Sophie Vershbow (27:30)
I mean I relate it.
Rudi Greenberg (27:32)
And I kind of think she is a little bit of an elaborate troll. And so a little bit of respect if that's what she's
Sophie Vershbow (27:38)
Sure.
Rudi Greenberg (27:38)
doing. But I but I agree that when you see her in a movie, it's kind of like.
You know what you're getting. And this movie makes light of that several times. So essentially she's like, I'm not doing this. I'm not writing. Like, this is, I'm not the right person for this.
I can't write in someone else's voice. Like, there's no way I want to do this. And then Jeremy is like, wait, can we just talk? And they kind of have this acknowledgement of like, look, we know each other. But also Jeremy is like, look, Verity loved your book. Verity was a big fan of your last book. And and and I think she'd she'd love for you to be the one to finish it. And that.
And also basically says, you need to ask for more money. They're lowballing you. and
Sophie Vershbow (28:19)
By like a lot.
Rudi Greenberg (28:20)
by like a lot. And it's like, you should ask for half a million dollars. And I think that combination of half a million dollars and the raising her up a bit convinces
Sophie Vershbow (28:26)
Flattery.
Rudi Greenberg (28:28)
her to do this, to do this. And so she we should mention that Loan recently lost her mother like the day before or something, which the movie does not care about at all. It like says, and then it's like,
Sophie Vershbow (28:42)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (28:43)
who cares about her trauma?
So part of the agreement to write this book is that she needs to go stay at their house in Vermont, at Verity, at the Crawford's house in Vermont, because that's where Verity's notes are. Verity has her notes everywhere, on thumb drives, on paper. you know, she's not very organized. I don't think any writers are organized, is something that like Dakota Johnson says. And so she has to go live at this house with Jeremy and Verity.
And the nurse who takes care of the comatose verity during the day. Let's talk about the house. So immediately, the house. I love the Vs. Like clearly they saw this house and they were like, because it has Vs, we have to use this. The arches, yeah, it's like it's a bunch of Vs.
Sophie Vershbow (29:29)
you mean on the roof with all of them. The production
design in this movie is completely out of control. Like I laughed out loud at this home multiple times. It's like a it's like a bon it's a real house.
Rudi Greenberg (29:40)
I loved the house. It's a real house. So this
is a real house in Armonic, Armonk, New York, kind of like in Westchester County. Yes, Armonk, yes. you would know.
Sophie Vershbow (29:49)
Armong? Armong. Yes. Yeah, there you go. that's
like pretty close to the city. That's crazy.
Rudi Greenberg (29:56)
It was built in the early 1960s
by a Danish designer for Martha and Ted Nuremberg, the founders of the homeware brand Dansk. Dansk. I'm bad at pronouncing things.
Sophie Vershbow (30:07)
Interesting.
Rudi Greenberg (30:09)
today the house functions as a wellness retreat center called Beckoning Path. So this is a real place. They shot, they shot, yeah, I know, right? I kind of want to go there.
Sophie Vershbow (30:14)
Okay, I'm looking up beckoning path to get up get myself there.
Rudi Greenberg (30:19)
They shot some of the scenes there. They also built sets that like recreated the the house on the inside. But it is a beautiful house that like is befitting of a like, you know.
Sophie Vershbow (30:27)
It's gorgeous. Well, it's
very unique. It's not like any house I feel like I've seen before. And it has all these sort of like this wood.
Rudi Greenberg (30:32)
Yes. It's a horror house.
Sophie Vershbow (30:35)
It's basically like a cave made out of wood. That's what it feels like. Like it's very cavernous with all these
Rudi Greenberg (30:40)
Well
Sophie Vershbow (30:40)
like wood rooms built into this like rock almost.
Rudi Greenberg (30:42)
And and the unique
thing about Verity's books is that they're all about like villains and
written from
Sophie Vershbow (30:49)
They're all fucked up.
Rudi Greenberg (30:50)
the villain's perspective, which is I think pretty unique in like the genre that she operates in. And all her books are s designed to look like Colleen Hoover books. Like they
Sophie Vershbow (31:01)
Yes.
Rudi Greenberg (31:02)
they all have that aesthetic. And again, this is where some of that like
Metaness kind of comes into play where Colleen Hoover, before she was a super successful writer, is writing about a super successful writer. It's a little bit of an
Sophie Vershbow (31:14)
Totally.
Rudi Greenberg (31:15)
interesting thing going on there.
Sophie Vershbow (31:17)
So I think maybe now is a good time to mention a first big change as we're meeting
Rudi Greenberg (31:21)
Yeah, sure.
Sophie Vershbow (31:22)
the house because we meet Crew, who is Jeremy and Verity's son. And so that is where we Yeah, Crew. That's what I said. yes, sorry.
Rudi Greenberg (31:27)
Crew. Crew. Yes, crew. I'm just I'm just repeating the name crew because who names their child crew?
Sophie Vershbow (31:35)
Well, and also, especially since he's involved in a boning accident, but whatever. but this is the first like big change that I clocked as a reader of the book. So
We know from Jeremy that they had their daughter died in a boating accident
Rudi Greenberg (31:52)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (31:54)
earlier. In the book, there are actually two daughters. So in the book, in the movie, we have Harper who died in the boating accident. Crew survived. In the book, it is Chaston and Harper. They are twins, and Crew is born later.
Taking this extra twin out is actually a pretty big change. It kind of by domino sets off a lot of other changes. So in the book, Chastin and Harper had both died recently, six months apart. So Chastin had
died of a peanut allergy, and Harper had then died in the boat. And so I won't ruin our next thing yet, but this all really ties into what we're gonna learn about with Verity and sort of like how these children.
met their demise.
Rudi Greenberg (32:45)
Yeah, I feel I feel like that was more of an economical choice, if anything, to just
Sophie Vershbow (32:49)
You're
Rudi Greenberg (32:49)
say we don't need too much, like there's enough trauma, we don't need this extra trauma.
Sophie Vershbow (32:54)
So there's also a pretty like upsetting scene that I think they pretty intentionally wanted
Rudi Greenberg (32:59)
I've heard about this.
Sophie Vershbow (33:00)
to take out.
so when she gets to the house, she
you know, starts working on the manuscript. We have this one kid there. And in this, she is just working in the office and she finds what seems to be an autobiography or a memoir by Verity that is unpublished. She finds like a thumb
Rudi Greenberg (33:15)
Yes. So be it.
Sophie Vershbow (33:18)
drive. So be it.
Rudi Greenberg (33:20)
Called So Be It. And it's like in a locked drawer, I believe.
Sophie Vershbow (33:25)
Yes.
Rudi Greenberg (33:25)
And she she puts it into the computer and starts reading it.
Sophie Vershbow (33:29)
And she starts reading it. And so we are presented with a very different view. You know, right now we have this woman who's been in a car accident and is a patient, can't do anything,
Rudi Greenberg (33:39)
Comatose, yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (33:41)
comatose. We think she they sort of describe it as like she can swallow, but like doesn't really know what's happening.
Rudi Greenberg (33:47)
Right, right. And and all we know
really of Verity at this point is like clips that we've seen of like either they've shown us in the movie or the low end character has been watching the Hot Ones interview, the Call Her Daddy interview. Like that is how we're introduced to Verity is through her doing press. We don't actually really know her. And so our first opportunity to see her as like a real person is through this manuscript that we start kind of seeing we seeing, yeah. Well
Sophie Vershbow (34:14)
comes to life basically. These
Rudi Greenberg (34:18)
Okay. Can we talk
Sophie Vershbow (34:17)
are Anne Hathaway's scenes. I Anne Hathaway is very little of the movie.
Rudi Greenberg (34:20)
about the choice to superimpose the text of the manuscript as she's reading it with
Sophie Vershbow (34:28)
I mean a movie loves to do that.
Rudi Greenberg (34:31)
the the the reenactment scenes of Ann Hathaway and Josh Hartnett?
Sophie Vershbow (34:37)
I mean, mm-adaptation, things love to do that.
Rudi Greenberg (34:40)
I I liked it because it felt like I was reading.
Sophie Vershbow (34:44)
You got to feel like me in the podcast. We like we're introduced
Rudi Greenberg (34:48)
So weird.
Sophie Vershbow (34:49)
and we basically are presented with this version of Verity who is increasingly clearly a monster. It presents it as
Rudi Greenberg (34:55)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (34:56)
she basically entrapped Jeremy as like this rich guy. But we are very much presented with this woman who is so in love with her partner, with her husband.
That she's obsessed with him to the point of destruction.
Rudi Greenberg (35:10)
Yes. And
I liked a lot of this stuff because this is where Anne Hathaway gets to cook. Like she really
Sophie Vershbow (35:15)
Same. Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (35:17)
is sidelined for most of this. And I would say, like, Anne Hathaway innocent, she is fine in this movie. Like she's good when she's like ratcheting up
Sophie Vershbow (35:24)
Yeah, how the way in a sand.
Rudi Greenberg (35:26)
when she's ratcheting up the camp in these these manuscript scenes. Like
Sophie Vershbow (35:29)
I loved it.
Rudi Greenberg (35:31)
I think she's great. And like it is, it's it's I think I can't remember if it's Loan or
Verity that's narrating, but we should know that Verity does narrate her own audiobooks in a very dramatic fashion. We we learned earlier in the movie. I can't remember who's narrating these scenes, but we do get to see them reenacted and we see this like red dress that Verity's in, the which is very important. The first night that she meets Josh Hartnett, and as you said, she kind of thinks he's this rich guy who is she's just gonna have a night with, but then we later learn actually he just drives like a
Like a Toyota Camry or like a Honda Civic or something.
Sophie Vershbow (36:08)
Yeah, he's not Well at first I was like, Wait, do they have this
nice house 'cause he had family money? And then I was like, Wait, no, it's all her writing career. He wasn't rich.
Rudi Greenberg (36:15)
No, no, no. It's all
it's all her writing career. But like she becomes, as you said, enamored with him and he has to go away on work a lot, right? We don't know what his job is.
Sophie Vershbow (36:23)
I think I think it's really this idea of
obsession and about her trying to get like other things away from him. And this is
Rudi Greenberg (36:34)
Right.
Sophie Vershbow (36:35)
she starts writing because he goes on a trip and she's like, I
Rudi Greenberg (36:37)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (36:38)
will die if I can't be with him. And then
Rudi Greenberg (36:40)
Right. And so she
needs to like get an outlet for her like her frustration, basically.
Sophie Vershbow (36:44)
And he reads her first
manuscript and says, This is so good. You're amazing. And she becomes, you know, a writer. Where the story
Rudi Greenberg (36:51)
Yes. And she's basically
like it meant more to me than anything else that I've ever heard was him saying how much she enjoyed that manuscript.
Sophie Vershbow (37:00)
She is obsessed with him. And the reason why that really comes in is because when she becomes pregnant, he basically says, like, I'm going to love these babies more than you. Of course, my love for them is unconditional. My love for you is conditional. And she's like, My love for you ain't conditional. This is a problem. And this is where we miss what is a pretty disturbing scene, which is Verity finds out she's pregnant with twins. She convinces herself, basically, well.
So she tries to abort the pregnancy using, like
Rudi Greenberg (37:32)
This is in the book.
Sophie Vershbow (37:33)
in the book, a knife or a knitting needle or something like that.
Rudi Greenberg (37:37)
Is it is it that's not the hanger scene that I've heard about?
Okay. That's what I've heard. Yeah, I've heard people talk about the hanger scene, so maybe that's what you're mentioning.
Sophie Vershbow (37:40)
that is it's a hangar. Is that what it is? It's a hanger. yeah. So so this
is like a big scene that was taken out
I am like kind of really not surprised they took this out. But
Rudi Greenberg (37:50)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Vershbow (37:51)
it is like a big thing because one of the twins comes out with a scar on her face. And Jeremy's like,
why does she have this scar? Why does she have this scar? And Barody like knows it's from that. And so that's really that first like scene as evil act. Like this mother didn't even want her kids.
Rudi Greenberg (38:03)
Mm. And and that is
told to us through the manuscript. Okay. Okay. Right.
Sophie Vershbow (38:09)
It's all told to us through the manuscript
in the same way. And so then, you know, as we see in the movie as well, like Verity is trying I mean, sorry, Lowen is trying to get information from Jeremy to like compare these stories. Like, how'd you guys
Rudi Greenberg (38:22)
Right. Because Loen
Sophie Vershbow (38:23)
meet?
Rudi Greenberg (38:24)
I can't remember how far Loan gets in the manuscript. I think she starts to get to the like the part where where Verity is talking about how much she hates her kids and maybe the scene
Sophie Vershbow (38:32)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (38:33)
where she tries to suffocate one of them with a pillow.
Sophie Vershbow (38:36)
So this
is also different. So what's really interesting with the twins is that she basically convinces herself, like she starts to bond with Chastin and convinces herself that Harper's like evil and going to kill Chastin.
Rudi Greenberg (38:48)
Right. Lauren mentioned this to me.
Sophie Vershbow (38:50)
And so she is not going to smother the baby in like she does in the movie, because she's tired, which is like what we're seeing. It's because she wants to smother Harper to protect Harper.
Rudi Greenberg (39:04)
Right.
Right.
Sophie Vershbow (39:05)
sorry
to protect Chastin from Harper. And then ultimately when the kids die, she's like, Harper killed Chastin. I know Harper
did it, so I'm gonna kill Harper.
Rudi Greenberg (39:15)
So like, yeah, totally different than the movie where it's
Sophie Vershbow (39:17)
Just more fucked upness. Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (39:20)
it's basically just like she hates being a mother and like we see her pretend every day to take care of the kids and be the perfect wife, but really she just
Sophie Vershbow (39:29)
She still does that.
Rudi Greenberg (39:30)
like she just puts you know, leaves, yeah, she just goes back to sleep and then is ready whenever Jeremy comes home. I mean, yeah. I I worry about those kids, but
Sophie Vershbow (39:33)
Goes to bed. She honestly has kind of a brilliant plan. She's like, I put earplugs in, I go back to bed, I wake up, then they're soothed because they screamed all day. We should
all worry about those kids.
Rudi Greenberg (39:45)
you know,
but otherwise. And yeah. And so Loan is trying to figure out, she's kind of grilling Jeremy on like, how did you two meet? And it it matches up with what with what Verity writes in in the story. And and I think at this point we we've started to maybe get one scene where like Verity like kind of like tries there's a little bit of like a jump scare of like Verity in the background, like
Sophie Vershbow (40:09)
Well, so
Rudi Greenberg (40:09)
looking.
Sophie Vershbow (40:10)
yeah, Verity's supposed to be paraplegia. Yeah,
Rudi Greenberg (40:13)
Comatose. Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (40:14)
she's in a coma. No, she's not in a coma. She's like well, I guess she She's brain dead, basically. Yeah, she can't
Rudi Greenberg (40:17)
Well, right. She's like near comatose in the sense that like she can't move. Like
Sophie Vershbow (40:22)
move. And then she just keeps like popping up in a window. Honestly, anytime
Rudi Greenberg (40:24)
She can like eat, but if someone feeds her.
Sophie Vershbow (40:27)
she popped up, I was so excited. I like, Verity, there she is.
Rudi Greenberg (40:30)
But it's like not really scary. Like I think it's supposed to be,
Sophie Vershbow (40:33)
No, it's not a scary movie at all.
Rudi Greenberg (40:34)
but it's but it's it's not. And you know, there's this like the nurse who is like the nurse who's I'm so confused by the nurse because the nurse is always like
Sophie Vershbow (40:41)
That's an odd performance.
Rudi Greenberg (40:46)
something's wrong, and then always tells Loan at the end of the day, I'm leaving now. Verity's watching TV, and then just stares.
Sophie Vershbow (40:51)
I'm leaving. Why? No, I know
she's very menacing and like ominous for no reason. Yeah. It's really bizarre.
Rudi Greenberg (40:57)
But never amounts, never amounts to anything. There's like no, no,
no purpose. and Loan continues to kind of read the manuscript off and on. She's trying to write this this next book. We watch her, like organizing like note cards and going through the writing process.
Sophie Vershbow (41:15)
note cards, I loved that.
Rudi Greenberg (41:17)
And she's she's dr getting closer to Jeremy, kind of a little closer to Crew. I mean, she's like always trying to be like, there's this real.
Like chilling scene, I guess at one point where she's like, Crew, do you want to play? And Crew seems to be like, I don't know how to play, basically. He's like, I'm helping my dad, leave me alone. Crew does
Sophie Vershbow (41:32)
Crew's messed up. Crew's real messed up. Crew eats a knife. He's not well.
Rudi Greenberg (41:39)
eat a knife, and that's when we know that something is really wrong. but
Sophie Vershbow (41:42)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (41:44)
Loan starts having these sort of fantasies about Jeremy, but also about Verity.
Sophie Vershbow (41:49)
Okay. About Verity.
I'm just gonna go ahead and just put it out there that that entire bathtub scene is just made up for the movie. There is no masturbating to Jeremy slash Verity in the book. So there's Yeah, there is like a Playboy
Rudi Greenberg (42:02)
Okay. And does that does that grotto exist too? 'Cause it's like suddenly there's a little grotto that she goes to.
Sophie Vershbow (42:07)
Mansion grotto. We don't hear about the grotto. So in the book, Loan is a sleepwalker, and that is supposed to be how she's like more.
not trustworthy. And there's a thing where she's basically like Jeremy, like lock me in my bedroom at night. And it's like, this is strange. But in this case, they kind of try to make her more of an unreliable narrator by like having her vape and like drink vodka and sometimes take Xanax. She is a lot of dramatic vaping in this movie.
Rudi Greenberg (42:30)
Right, she takes a lot of Xanax. Yeah, well she's dealing with her her mother
having just passed again. The movie doesn't want you to remember that, but it's there.
Sophie Vershbow (42:39)
I have
no judgment towards her drug usage. But yeah, that I I did start giggling when she was like topless getting off in a garado. I was like, you who made her do this?
Rudi Greenberg (42:46)
Yeah. Well, and there's
and there's just some odd choices with Show Walter as a filmmaker too, where like there's a couple scenes, I guess, in parallel where like I think one scene is Verity showering and one scene is Lowen showering where the camera's like right at like above the shower and it's like, okay, are we just doing like a mirrored thing? Is that why we're doing this?
Sophie Vershbow (43:07)
Well, it's interesting. So my I read a couple of interviews with Michael Showwalder and he said that that he very intentionally put more of like an all about Eve vibe
Rudi Greenberg (43:16)
Okay.
Sophie Vershbow (43:17)
into this in terms of like, you know, in the book I think it's more she's falling in love with Jeremy. And in this it's more she's stealing Verity's life. It feels more she
Rudi Greenberg (43:27)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (43:29)
literally goes up to her and is like, You I don't really wanna say
The C word on this podcast, but it's like you see you next Tuesday, like you dumb bitch. Like
Rudi Greenberg (43:33)
Yeah, you don't have to. Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (43:37)
I'm taking everything. Like you have what I want and I'm
taking it from you. Like
Rudi Greenberg (43:40)
Yes. And at this point,
at this point, I guess we should say that like I can't remember the order of this, whether she gets to the like darkest part of the manuscript first or she has sex with Jeremy first. Doesn't really matter, but we'll
Sophie Vershbow (43:57)
I can't remember.
Rudi Greenberg (43:59)
we'll talk about both of them right now, then. So she keeps reading the manuscript. She she at one point she throws it in the trash. She likes prints it out and throws it in the trash, but then she gets it again. And
Sophie Vershbow (44:06)
She does. Mm-hmm. I
can't believe she printed all that paper, but also like recycle.
Rudi Greenberg (44:11)
I so same. And I was like, it just throws it in the trash, like Jeremy's not gonna like find it.
and then she reads the finishes the manuscript, and in it, Verity admits to going out on the boat with her two kids in in the movie and causing the boat, shaking it around so it capsizes or flips over, so that her kids
die, or I guess Harper dies. Crew, it seems like she didn't really care either way.
Sophie Vershbow (44:44)
It seems
more to me like she's trying to kill both of them because again, it's
Rudi Greenberg (44:48)
I guess.
Sophie Vershbow (44:48)
very much more around wanting Jeremy's attention back than like the kids themselves. She's like, if they're gone, we'll you and you hear more
Rudi Greenberg (44:56)
Right.
Sophie Vershbow (44:57)
of the inner monologue of this in the book where it's like, if this kid dies, we'll bond, but we'll get through it. Like if I abort the twins, then it'll just be us. We'll get through this like miscarriage together.
Rudi Greenberg (45:08)
Right, right.
Sophie Vershbow (45:09)
And so
Yeah, it's definitely more drawn out in the book because Cruz like mommy told me to hold my breath before we capsized because literally she's trying to kill Harper specifically.
Rudi Greenberg (45:19)
Right, right.
And in in in the movie it's like crew just survives because he can like swim. And and you know, basically they like she gives a great performance for the cops. And so it it seems very much like it's an accident
I can't remember again if Loan and Jeremy have started to have their affair yet at this point, but certainly after reading that, she's like, Verity's Verity's
Sophie Vershbow (45:42)
Yeah. Buck Verity.
Rudi Greenberg (45:45)
horrible. And I think the she then goes to talk to Crew to talk about the time on the boat, and that's when Crew is eating
Sophie Vershbow (45:51)
Mm.
Rudi Greenberg (45:51)
peanut butter and then just like bites a knife.
and starts bleeding, which was yeah, one of
Sophie Vershbow (45:55)
That was so ups that was the scariest part of the movie.
Rudi Greenberg (45:57)
the again, just like the opening, one of the most weird, scary, twisted things in the movie.
Sophie Vershbow (46:02)
That's the kind
of like weird, menacing stuff I love in a movie like this, where it kind of feels like a little purposeless, but it's just like creepy.
Rudi Greenberg (46:08)
But then we get Dakota Johnson just basically like taking over Verity to the point where she goes, they go out on like a date. 'cause 'cause it's her birthday, right? It's her birthday. It was like her birthday the day before. They're like walking around the woods. She's almost done with
Sophie Vershbow (46:15)
Invented for the movie. Invented for the movie. Well I forgot
Rudi Greenberg (46:23)
the book.
Sophie Vershbow (46:24)
Rudi, I forgot to say in the book, Cruz, like, mommy told me not to play with her knives. And so that's like a creepy moment from that scene that they left out. No. But yeah, in the book,
Rudi Greenberg (46:33)
Not in the movie.
Sophie Vershbow (46:37)
they just eat like a quiet dinner at home. She doesn't like put the dress
Rudi Greenberg (46:39)
okay.
Sophie Vershbow (46:40)
on and go out. So that's like a very like all about Eve kind of moment.
Rudi Greenberg (46:42)
So they go out to
the they go out to the one nice restaurant, I guess, in this Vermont town
Sophie Vershbow (46:46)
Bavaria and restaurant.
Rudi Greenberg (46:47)
Bavaria and they have sausages. And she puts on the red Verity dress. And this is where we get the the scene where I think Jeremy's like, Are you okay? And Dakota Johnson's just like, I have resting bored face. It's a thing people say about me, which like, look, credit for making a meta joke about your s about one of your stars in the movie. Like it it's fine.
Sophie Vershbow (47:09)
no,
okay.
Rudi Greenberg (47:11)
I laughed. It's dumb, but I laughed. is it after the birthday dinner? Yeah. Okay. So they start,
Sophie Vershbow (47:13)
They start sleeping together after the birthday dinner. Yeah. One hundred percent.
Rudi Greenberg (47:18)
they start sleeping together. And we we left out a very important detail from the manuscript, which is we see many times throughout the movie. So this is like I think one of the first.
Maybe sex scenes between Anne Hathaway and Josh Hartnett, where she bites down on the bed frame and leaves teeth marks. Yeah. And we see earlier
Sophie Vershbow (47:39)
I am worried about her teeth. I'm worried about all their teeth. That didn't look safe.
Rudi Greenberg (47:43)
Loan is like touching it, like what happened there. And then
Sophie Vershbow (47:46)
That is in the book.
Rudi Greenberg (47:47)
when they have sex, Loan also bites down in the same spot. So apparently, this is Jeremy's superpowers just getting getting women to bite down on bed frames.
Sophie Vershbow (47:57)
We are supposed to think that Jeremy is very good in bed. And
Rudi Greenberg (48:00)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (48:01)
I will say Josh Hartnett looks very nice in this movie.
Rudi Greenberg (48:04)
What'd you think of the haircut?
Sophie Vershbow (48:06)
I he's like a really early childhood crush for me. The movie Pearl Harbor was very impactful in my young my young adult life. And so I thought he looked great.
Rudi Greenberg (48:15)
Yeah, a little shaggy, but like it worked. he's good. Hardn't like almost he's good. He could he
Sophie Vershbow (48:20)
I think he's good in this.
Rudi Greenberg (48:22)
needs to be like maybe just like a smidge more like sinister, as we'll get to in a second. Like there's almost like
Sophie Vershbow (48:27)
Well
Rudi Greenberg (48:27)
no level of sinisterness that you feel. So it's like hard to even like question what is what is about to happen. But he's giving a very
Sophie Vershbow (48:35)
I can't wait to talk about the ending with you.
Rudi Greenberg (48:36)
similar performance to the movie and tr the movie, the Night Shyamal movie Trap, where he is playing a
A guy who seems like this very nice, like dad taking his girl to a concert, but is actually very much not. Yes. So he's
Sophie Vershbow (48:50)
yes, yes, yes.
Rudi Greenberg (48:52)
kind of having to play these two sides of of of the same coin. And so after, you know, reading this manuscript, after having sex with Jeremy, Loan is like, I need to confront Verity.
Sophie Vershbow (49:10)
It's also that like she keeps seeing her and like they're hooking up and she's like, Your
Rudi Greenberg (49:13)
Right. So she thinks right.
Sophie Vershbow (49:14)
wife they start like hooking up and she's like, Your wife is here. Like I see her. And Jeremy's increasingly
Rudi Greenberg (49:17)
Right. She thinks that Verity is faking.
Sophie Vershbow (49:20)
tell right, and Jeremy is also increasingly being like, No, Loan, like she can't move. This is definitely not what's happening.
Rudi Greenberg (49:29)
And so we get a big confrontation with all three of them, where Loan is like essentially calling her out. And finally, Verity goes, Okay, I can explain.
Sophie Vershbow (49:40)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (49:42)
And then before we get to hear anything, Jeremy starts strangling her. Very out of character. Starts straight and Loan's like, wait, wait,
Sophie Vershbow (49:50)
Jeremy starts strangling her. Now,
Rudi Greenberg (49:52)
wait, wait, stop.
Sophie Vershbow (49:54)
this is an interesting small change. So
Rudi Greenberg (49:56)
Okay.
Sophie Vershbow (49:56)
when Loan goes to show Jeremy the manuscript and be like, my God, like your wife be crazy.
Rudi Greenberg (50:03)
That's right, yes.
Sophie Vershbow (50:05)
in the book, he says, Where did you find it? Which makes it sound more like he had already read the manuscript prior.
In the movie, he acts much more surprised of like,
like what is this? What's happening? Yeah, he like finds it. and so that's
Rudi Greenberg (50:21)
Right. 'Cause he reads it in the movie, I think, yeah. And that's when we have the confrontation.
Sophie Vershbow (50:26)
like an interesting small difference. But
Rudi Greenberg (50:28)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (50:28)
then like, so they all they kill Verity.
he starts smothering her. And this is where Loan instead of saying stop is like, actually that's gonna be too easily caught for you. You need to make it look like an accident. And so we're like, shit.
Loan's gonna go along with this too.
Rudi Greenberg (50:45)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (50:45)
And so they kill her. In the book, they make her throw up and then like hold her mouth closed and just leave
Rudi Greenberg (50:52)
Okay.
Sophie Vershbow (50:52)
her in bed. In the movie, they hold her mouth closed so she can't breathe, and then they roll her into the lake
Rudi Greenberg (50:57)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (50:59)
to make it look like she basically like went back looking for her kid, like in her sleep.
Rudi Greenberg (51:01)
Yes. And then we get a
a call back to the the Verity performance after from the
Sophie Vershbow (51:07)
Yes.
Rudi Greenberg (51:08)
the manuscript reading, where now Dakota Johnson's character Loan is is doing that kind of performance. And there is a funny s funny part of that where like one of the cops, the cops who's questioning her is like, So when are we getting the next book?
Sophie Vershbow (51:22)
I l okay, I genuinely loved that. That was a really good moment. Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (51:25)
Too. That was funny. He's just like a fanboy of these books.
and I guess then at that point, we fast forward to seven months later. The house is is empty. They're they're walking around the house. Loan is visibly pregnant,
Sophie Vershbow (51:42)
Mm.
Rudi Greenberg (51:42)
and she's trying to find Crew. And Crew gives her like some drawings. And she's like, Where'd you where'd you get that? They're they're moving to like
South Carolina or something? No explanation why. North Carolina. Okay. Yeah, that
Sophie Vershbow (51:54)
They say North Carolina and they never explain it and it drove me crazy.
Rudi Greenberg (51:58)
also drove me crazy. And she's like, Where'd you find that? He's like, I it from my hiding spot. And so she goes and looks for this hiding place, and there's a floorboard that she lifts up, and there's a bunch of notes, a letter, if you will. And now
Sophie Vershbow (52:12)
A mysterious handwritten note.
Rudi Greenberg (52:14)
what does this letter say, Sophie?
Sophie Vershbow (52:17)
This letter is basically Verity saying to Jeremy, if you find this, it means that Crew and I have escaped. And so we find out through this letter that Verity had done something called antagonistic journaling. Not sure I'd heard of that one before, but we flash back to a scene.
Rudi Greenberg (52:33)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (52:37)
She's like, Of course you don't remember. You weren't paying attention. We are with my editor, Hishette, and she encouraged me to do this antagonist.
Antagonistic journaling, which means saying like the opposite of how you felt. So wanting to kill your kid as like a happy new mother, that kind of thing. And so she is saying in the letter that all of this was made up, this was not my memoir, all of this. And we see Loan start to spin out and be like, we killed this lady. Whoops.
Rudi Greenberg (53:07)
And that's
where we learn that apparently Jeremy was actually a bad guy. And
the death of Harper was an accident according to the letter, right?
Sophie Vershbow (53:19)
Yes,
the death of Harper was very much an accident according to the letter. Jeremy
Rudi Greenberg (53:23)
But Jeremy found the manuscript.
Sophie Vershbow (53:25)
found the manuscript and thought that she killed Harper. And so he tried to kill her by making it look like she dro we because the last
Rudi Greenberg (53:35)
So she drugged him.
Sophie Vershbow (53:37)
line wait, because the last line of the manuscript is like, I might as well go drive myself into a ditch or into a tree. And so he's like,
Rudi Greenberg (53:43)
Yes. And so she drugs
him, drugs her and puts her in a car, you know, puts a rock on the on the gas and then it she crashes and she didn't die. She survived.
Sophie Vershbow (53:55)
She didn't die. And so Verity
has basically been faking it since she woke up, trying to plot her escape with crew. And
Rudi Greenberg (54:02)
Yes and
Sophie Vershbow (54:03)
Loan is just sort of like, hmm, guess we won't know.
Rudi Greenberg (54:07)
Yeah, and they kind of drive off into the sunset, and we're left with this very ambiguous ending. And really, Verity is posing a question that it doesn't seem interested in answering, which
Sophie Vershbow (54:21)
Well
Rudi Greenberg (54:22)
is are you, as as I've since learned from the people on book talk and and movie watchers, are you team manuscript or team letter?
Sophie Vershbow (54:31)
I think the really important thing to point out here is that the author doesn't know. So Colleen Hoover has really
Rudi Greenberg (54:37)
Not only that
Sophie Vershbow (54:40)
she doesn't care? What? Well, so
Rudi Greenberg (54:42)
She then went and and wrote an epilogue.
Sophie Vershbow (54:44)
there is okay. So let me kind of so Colleen Hoover traditionally has been like, Noah, I don't know. I'm gonna be really honest with you, Rudi, as a reader. This is like one of my maybe like top three pet peeves as a person who reads a lot of thrillers. I think it's like a
Pretty inappropriate answer for you as the author to say, I don't know the story I was telling and then ask
Rudi Greenberg (55:05)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Vershbow (55:05)
me to figure it out. I think it's fine for things to be ambiguous with intention. and so I I find it pretty lazy when an author says, like, I don't know, actually. Like, she has literally said, like, I've gone back and forth over time trying to think about
Rudi Greenberg (55:21)
Yep.
Sophie Vershbow (55:21)
it. She ultimately wrote an extra chapter that is part of a special edition of the book.
Thank you so much for sending that to me last night. I read it thanks to some people on Reddit's like screenshots.
Rudi Greenberg (55:33)
You can Yeah, you can read it on Reddit.
Sophie Vershbow (55:37)
It was not in the edition. okay, I guess I'll just tell people. So wow. this is definitely like Jeremy the bad guy. They kill
Rudi Greenberg (55:46)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (55:47)
another person and crew a psycho. So they basically like in North Carolina, they see this woman they knew from Patricia.
Rudi Greenberg (55:53)
Patricia, right?
Sophie Vershbow (55:55)
Like she's like a minor character, like in the book.
From Vermont and he kills her. And also, Crew is now a psycho because Crew like puts the new baby outside
and is
like, we don't need my baby sister. She's just gonna die anyway. So everyone's fucked up. Probably Verity was okay.
Rudi Greenberg (56:14)
Well, and what's so what's
so weird about this is that I rem I saw an interview with Colleen Hoover where she was like, Well, I was team manuscript for the longest time. If you're team manuscript, doesn't that mean that Jeremy
Sophie Vershbow (56:26)
Why would you write that chapter?
Rudi Greenberg (56:28)
isn't the killer? I mean, there's a quote from her, right. There's a quote from her in
Sophie Vershbow (56:31)
She doesn't know, that's the point. There is no answer.
Rudi Greenberg (56:34)
in the Hollywood Reporter where she says, I think it wasn't until like two weeks, two weeks before I ch turned it in that I realized, like, it doesn't need a resolution.
I was even a little surprised that's how it ended. And she's recently admitted, I know, right? Being surprised, like you you wrote the fucking book. Like you decided.
Sophie Vershbow (56:51)
Stop it. You're the author.
Rudi Greenberg (56:54)
She now says that her own read of what's real has shifted. When I wrote the book and ended it, how how I ended it, I was in Loan's perspective. It was first person from Loan. So I was just as confused as she was. And I've carried
Sophie Vershbow (57:05)
Right. Yes.
Rudi Greenberg (57:07)
that with me until
Recently, I had to read it again for the first time after watching the film, and I think the film influenced me. I've actually gained a whole new perspective, and I still don't know. Now I should also note that there was an alternate twist ending, which was originally going to be the film's ending that was shot and included Loan putting on shades, rolling down the window of the car and making waves with her
Sophie Vershbow (57:31)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (57:32)
hand, alluding to the audience that she is like a master manipulator before cutting to
to Verity's sinking body where she abruptly opens her eyes, indicating that she was alive. Test audiences apparently were not happy with this ending, according to Variety, which is why this didn't make the movie.
Sophie Vershbow (57:51)
I think it's really interesting. I read that they apparently did a ton of edits based on test audiences. And they
Rudi Greenberg (57:55)
Yeah, I heard that too.
Sophie Vershbow (57:57)
said this was sort of like a very like made-by-committee movie. So I don't really know what I have to say about that, but I just think it's interesting.
Rudi Greenberg (58:05)
I don't either. It's like
can I tell you what I thought where I thought this movie was heading? Maybe like two-thirds
Sophie Vershbow (58:11)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (58:12)
of the way through. So I thought to myself, okay, so Jeremy wrote the manuscript and engineered this whole thing. That was my that was my thought.
Because
We left this out, but we later learn that during that dinner that Jeremy admits to Loan that Verity never read Loan's book. And actually, Jeremy did, and he loved
Sophie Vershbow (58:36)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (58:37)
it. And so he thought that she would be really good to do this because the book really affected her. So after that scene, I'm like, he engineered all of this. Wouldn't it be so dark and twisted if he also
Pushed the guy in the on the bike in front of the car to engineer
Sophie Vershbow (58:55)
Ooh
Rudi Greenberg (58:56)
the meat cute with Loan. That isn't that better than
Sophie Vershbow (58:59)
that's pretty good, Rudi. I like that.
Rudi Greenberg (59:02)
what we actually get? Like, that's definitively
Sophie Vershbow (59:04)
I like that.
Rudi Greenberg (59:06)
Jeremy is the bad guy, and he's been the master manipulator the entire time. I actually don't even care if he wrote the manuscript
Sophie Vershbow (59:12)
Pretty good.
Rudi Greenberg (59:13)
or not, but like that original, that idea of him engineering that from the beginning would have been so.
Twisted, even though I guessed it, I would have
Sophie Vershbow (59:21)
I like that.
Rudi Greenberg (59:22)
been like, cool, like this movie went places I wasn't expecting.
Sophie Vershbow (59:27)
Yeah, I think that ultimately when the writer doesn't know, I'm sort of like, why am I supposed like anyone who's like, well, this is what it is, it's like, but
Rudi Greenberg (59:35)
I know.
Sophie Vershbow (59:35)
it's not because they've literally told us they don't know. It just takes all the fun out of it for me. I I love your your ending to that. I mean, I think with both, yeah, let's add
Rudi Greenberg (59:43)
Yeah, let's let's add a new ending to it.
Sophie Vershbow (59:47)
a new ending to this. But it's interesting to hear what you thought because look.
Obviously, there's like a huge twist to this movie that I knew was
Rudi Greenberg (59:54)
Right, right.
Sophie Vershbow (59:55)
coming the entire time. There's no way it could be as impactful. And look, I love a thing with a big twist. I think that I'm not the first person to make this critique, but like the twist happens just as fast in the book. Like you've read this
Rudi Greenberg (1:00:07)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Vershbow (1:00:08)
entire book, and then for like four minutes at the end, you get this story, and then they're just like, peace, it's over. You're like, wait, what what just happened? And so they're
Rudi Greenberg (1:00:16)
Yeah, and it's
Sophie Vershbow (1:00:17)
very incomplete. It's an incomplete book.
Rudi Greenberg (1:00:19)
It does feel
incomplete. And I and I I guess part of that
Sophie Vershbow (1:00:22)
It is.
Rudi Greenberg (1:00:23)
is to get people talking about it. You whether she intended to or not, she engineered this team letter, team manuscript thing, which gets people like debating which way did it go. And ultimately I think the movie's not good enough for me to care. Like I actually really don't care which version it is. I'm just kind of like, okay.
Sophie Vershbow (1:00:44)
I don't care because the author didn't care. Like I I really mean it. Like it's it's like a contract. I feel like I'm making with an author or something where it's like you know the story and you're telling it to me.
Rudi Greenberg (1:00:51)
Yeah. Well, it's
it's befitting of a movie that like I could certainly describe as Teemu Gone Girl. Like this is, you know, like it is it is very befitting of something like that. And I do okay, there's like two things I want to talk about that kind of tie together. So what's interesting about this, and we we mentioned this with Ann Hathaway a little bit, we really only see Verity through this.
Manuscript and through these like interview
Sophie Vershbow (1:01:21)
Mostly, yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (1:01:22)
segments. it's really through what Lohan's imagining. And and I mentioned the movie Digger, and I won't spoil Digger other than to say that it has a big twist that it hinges on. It is also very meta about the art of of filmmaking, the art of performing. And it like Verity with Anne Hathaway, it requires Tom Cruise to kind of play like two versions.
Sophie Vershbow (1:01:48)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:01:48)
Of a role.
So, like Anna Hathaway does kind of have to play very briefly this comatose version of herself. And then also, and
Sophie Vershbow (1:01:54)
She's doing a great coma patient. I gotta be honest.
Rudi Greenberg (1:01:57)
then also this, you know, heightened, kind of campy manuscript version of
Sophie Vershbow (1:02:02)
Mm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:02:03)
it. And I I kind of liked Digger. I didn't hate it. I didn't love it. I think it's interesting. There, these are two movies with movie stars in them, hinging around twists that are meta.
And are really more interesting to like talk about than in some cases they are to watch. and I I don't I don't know that I recommend people watch either of these movies necessarily, but yes.
Sophie Vershbow (1:02:28)
This is an airport movie. Like this is an airplane movie. This is a you
stream it on Peacock movie. This is like it I mean it though. Like it did. so sorry. This will be
Rudi Greenberg (1:02:36)
prime video, this is an Amazon production, but yes.
Sophie Vershbow (1:02:39)
a prime video movie. This but I will say like again, the book and the movie they held my attention, but it's almost because they're also like surface level. Like you don't have to think too hard.
Rudi Greenberg (1:02:50)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:02:50)
It's just like plot, some plot.
Rudi Greenberg (1:02:54)
Well, and it's it's slow at times. Like there's a lot of like close-ups of faces, a lot of like mouths, like really some like close-ups on mouths and faces. And like, you know, you have one person like right at the front of the frame and another person behind. There's a lot of weird editing choices with like bombastic music. again, it's like it wants to be camp, but it
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:19)
It wants to
be camp but it's not going
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:20)
doesn't really
feel campy enough except when you're in this like flashback imagination
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:26)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:26)
manuscript world.
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:28)
Anne Hathaway with her like bouncy hair in those flashbacks
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:31)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:32)
is like coming close to camp or like
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:34)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:35)
her sitting at her desk in like a hallucination again with the hair. The wig is doing a lot of work.
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:41)
I was thinking about this movie in comparison to The Housemaid, which is another
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:44)
I think there's a lot of yeah, I mean
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:47)
kind of twisty thriller
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:48)
Yes.
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:49)
with, you know, romance, erotic elements. And I
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:53)
I just hate Sydney Sweeney, so I struggle but
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:56)
the thing is that I think the housemaid elevates the material a bit more because Amanda Seyfried is like really, really good in it.
Sophie Vershbow (1:04:06)
sorry,
I guess I should say I think the housemaid's better than this. Like definitely.
Rudi Greenberg (1:04:09)
Yeah, I think so too. Like the Housemaid's better. And
I'm actually looking forward to the Housemade Secret, House Made Secret, whatever, the second two,
Sophie Vershbow (1:04:15)
The housemaids the housemaids.
Rudi Greenberg (1:04:17)
which is next year and is gonna have Kirsten Dunst in it, which is which is very cool.
Sophie Vershbow (1:04:23)
Fun.
Rudi Greenberg (1:04:24)
I'm excited about that. But yeah, I just think the Housemaid did a version of this kind of genre a little bit better.
Sophie Vershbow (1:04:33)
if you like this kind of book, if you like this kind of story, there's just one million better ones out there. And there's
Rudi Greenberg (1:04:40)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:04:41)
ones too, like I don't always want to read a dense literary thriller. Like I sometimes want to read just like action and twists and camp. And I just maybe I'll like
pull some and we can share them on social or something. But I just I feel like there's just so many better versions of this book that actually have developed characters that you could go and read that will give you the same feeling of like, whoa, what just happened?
Rudi Greenberg (1:05:06)
Look, as a capper to Anne Hathaway's insane
Sophie Vershbow (1:05:10)
Year.
Rudi Greenberg (1:05:11)
year, five movies. I saw them all. I I collected them all. I can field a basketball team with Anne Hathaway performances.
Sophie Vershbow (1:05:16)
Ha ha ha.
Rudi Greenberg (1:05:18)
Unfortunately, this is at the bottom. Like I think she's again not bad in this. It's just the least in it's it's the
Sophie Vershbow (1:05:24)
She's the best part of this movie.
Rudi Greenberg (1:05:26)
least interesting movie that she was in, and probably the least that she's in one of these movies. If I had to rank them, I think it would be this one.
Mother Mary, which I didn't really love that much, but is a little bit better. Devil Wars Prada 2, which she's like good in because she's great at that character. And then The End of Oak Street, which she's really good in. Movies also good, but some people didn't like it. And then Odyssey, which she, you know, might win an Oscar for.
Sophie Vershbow (1:05:49)
Yeah, she's amazing.
Rudi Greenberg (1:05:51)
Yeah, I at the as the capper to her year, it's kind of a bummer. Cause like I really loved watching Anne Hathaway on my screens
Sophie Vershbow (1:05:56)
This movie really needed her.
Rudi Greenberg (1:05:57)
this year, but she's the best part of it. So
Sophie Vershbow (1:06:00)
Yeah, I honestly think this would be like that bad without Anne Hathaway. So I'm very grateful she was in this.
Rudi Greenberg (1:06:05)
Can I also note that this movie was available to watch in 4DX, if you so chose? If
you're not familiar with 4DX, that is like the amusement park kind of rides where like
Sophie Vershbow (1:06:15)
What happens?
Rudi Greenberg (1:06:16)
the the seat moves and there's water and wind and like all sorts of elements like that. I have no idea. I I don't think blood splatters,
Sophie Vershbow (1:06:22)
Does blood splatter on you? It's like you the bike.
Rudi Greenberg (1:06:26)
but I'd love to know why 4DX.
Would be a way to watch this movie. I've heard the movie Twisters from a couple years ago. The Twister sequel was great in 4DX because obviously there's tornadoes. I don't know that I can do yeah, I don't know that I can
Sophie Vershbow (1:06:36)
Okay, I have vestibular migraine, so I will not be participating in this motion sensorial.
Rudi Greenberg (1:06:42)
do 40X, but I'm just curious, like what if you saw the movie in 40X, please email
Sophie Vershbow (1:06:46)
He's still us.
Rudi Greenberg (1:06:47)
us, message us, let us know. I want to hear your experience.
Sophie Vershbow (1:06:51)
They give you a piece of wood to bite down on.
Rudi Greenberg (1:06:55)
I guess you probably feel some water when like they drop the body in the water. I dun I mean, the boat rocks over. I guess you kind of feel some movement there.
Sophie Vershbow (1:07:02)
Yeah, you can feel like you're one of them.
Rudi Greenberg (1:07:04)
But like I don't know what else there would be.
Sophie Vershbow (1:07:06)
Yeah, I think
Rudi Greenberg (1:07:07)
I don't know. Sophie, before we get to Sophie's choice, is there anything else you want to mention about this movie or this book?
Sophie Vershbow (1:07:17)
I found her outerwear inappropriate for Vermont when she kept walking around in like a leather jacket and like I have a lot of c
Rudi Greenberg (1:07:21)
Sure. Well, did you see her apartment? Are you surprised?
Sophie Vershbow (1:07:27)
so Codis Johnson's bangs did a lot of acting.
Rudi Greenberg (1:07:30)
Do you think they were trying to imply that the agent and her had a thing at one point? Okay. Okay,
Sophie Vershbow (1:07:35)
It is very explicit in the book that they are exes, yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (1:07:38)
it's like b lightly implied they have a look where it looks like maybe they're gonna kiss. Yeah, and then they just didn't. Feels like a lot of things were cut.
Sophie Vershbow (1:07:41)
I think they just cut that for time. Yeah, they just cut it for time. But yeah, definitely her.
I think that you could have left. I think the stuff with the extra twin and the thinking ones evil, like that's all fun. I wish they had left that in there.
Rudi Greenberg (1:07:57)
Interesting. Okay. So you actually do feel because this is what I think is interesting about this, and and talking to Lauren about it, who again read the book but didn't really love it and didn't like the movie that much either. She was like nitpicking about things that were left out and is like, I get it, it's a movie, it's gotta be shorter. But like we had this discussion last week with the love hypothesis that maybe the love hypothesis plays better as a series. I kind of disagree because I don't think there's enough story there to make it interesting, but
Sophie Vershbow (1:08:25)
I don't
think that this plays as a series. This is not a series. You could
Rudi Greenberg (1:08:27)
But this no, this is like perfect for movie length. Like
Sophie Vershbow (1:08:31)
have fit that other stuff in. I mean, you don't need to put.
Rudi Greenberg (1:08:33)
But even cutting it,
does it really like do you really feel like you lost a lot? Did you just lost some of the darkness, right?
Sophie Vershbow (1:08:38)
I don't feel like I lost anything that's like crucial to the tone
Rudi Greenberg (1:08:45)
Okay.
Sophie Vershbow (1:08:45)
or like I just think we could have had a few fewer shots of the nurse looking weird and like added in the extra twin. I just think it's like
Rudi Greenberg (1:08:55)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:08:58)
a lot of interesting stuff in a movie, a book movie without a lot of characters and without like honestly like that much going on. Like I
I liked it. I think it made it more interesting. and it also like made another psych, it made it more interesting than does she just hate her kids and want them to die? It was like a little
Rudi Greenberg (1:09:19)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:09:19)
bit more complex where it was like, at first
Rudi Greenberg (1:09:21)
That's fair.
Sophie Vershbow (1:09:21)
I hated them, but now I think one of them's evil. And it was like, like what's going on here? So I think you could have left that in there. But in general, I mean, it's pretty true to the book. Like these, this feels like.
An
adaptation, very much so. And my guess is that they're sending Colleen Hoover back to the writing desk mainly because they want more stuff to adapt.
Rudi Greenberg (1:09:42)
Yeah, probably.
so now we have one more segment before we wrap. This is of course the segment that is based on
Sophie Vershbow (1:09:51)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (1:09:51)
a movie, that is based on a book. This is Sophie's choice, where Sophie decides which did she enjoy more reading Verity or watching Verity. And I am really intrigued about your
Sophie Vershbow (1:10:04)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (1:10:04)
answer to this one.
'Cause this is I think it's kinda tough, right?
Sophie Vershbow (1:10:09)
say they they are pretty equal experiences in my head. I'm gonna go with the book, which I
Rudi Greenberg (1:10:15)
Okay.
Sophie Vershbow (1:10:16)
enjoyed more, only because
Rudi Greenberg (1:10:18)
Typical.
Sophie Vershbow (1:10:19)
well shocker, because we sh we need to. I you know, I think
Rudi Greenberg (1:10:21)
We need to start tallying how many and we need to like do that at the end of the year. I'll go back and find those.
Sophie Vershbow (1:10:27)
things like this are very challenging. I could like look at Gone Girl the same way. We're like, I think Gone Girl is an amazing movie adaptation.
Rudi Greenberg (1:10:33)
Uh-huh.
Sophie Vershbow (1:10:33)
But when you know the central twist of a story like this,
Rudi Greenberg (1:10:36)
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (1:10:37)
I just don't, I think it's really hard to judge the experiences when they feel the same amount of like good, good art.
Rudi Greenberg (1:10:44)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:10:44)
So I think ultimately just because at least I was like really kept guessing I appreciated in in the book ready experience. And I think ultimately, I just think the movie like could have done more. I think there is like a campier, more fun.
Rudi Greenberg (1:11:01)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Vershbow (1:11:02)
Version of this movie that I'm like, this is like actually kind of like better art. And so I like it more. Whereas
Rudi Greenberg (1:11:06)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:11:07)
like these are both just fine. And so I'll pick the one where I was surprised.
Rudi Greenberg (1:11:11)
I I wonder if you cast someone else's low-in, someone who really wants to s sink their teeth into a role like this. I'm sorry I had to do it.
Sophie Vershbow (1:11:23)
No, but it's true. I I wish that they had cast someone else in that role. I really do. Cause I think Josh Hartnett's pretty good. I think Anne Hathaway, and again, if they had given her like even more scenes, I don't know. I I think
Rudi Greenberg (1:11:35)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:11:35)
that there's more potential for this. I mean, don't go read the book, like go read something better, but it was fine. I was surprised by how not horrible it was.
Rudi Greenberg (1:11:45)
Yeah, I think this is better than the love hypothesis to like compare it to something that we talked about last week. but it's not that much better.
Sophie Vershbow (1:11:52)
It really fight.
And maybe part of it is just like the barrier of low expectations where it's like, I
Rudi Greenberg (1:11:58)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:11:59)
just hated that. And so I was at least happier to be in this genre versus that one where I was like, everything is so predictable. But it's not good.
Rudi Greenberg (1:12:06)
Yeah. Well, I'm hopeful I'm hopeful that
next week we have something better to talk about. I realize the last couple of episodes where we've talked about a a a movie, it's been kind of negative. So I'm hoping next week with Other Mommy, that we we like that one. I'm I'm enjoying the book. Then we have East of Eden, then we have Carrie.
Sophie Vershbow (1:12:24)
Then we have East of Eden and like you know, Carrie. I think we're gonna have some really good stuff coming
up.
Rudi Greenberg (1:12:30)
And then we have a lot of other things that we're gonna sprinkle in as well as potentially a very
Sophie Vershbow (1:12:34)
Yes.
Rudi Greenberg (1:12:34)
exciting bonus episode that we may throw in there as well that
Sophie Vershbow (1:12:37)
I have tickets.
Rudi Greenberg (1:12:38)
both of us are are very excited for. so yeah, we will see you next week
Sophie Vershbow (1:12:45)
Sweet.
Rudi Greenberg (1:12:45)
to discuss other mommy and incidents around the house. Thanks, Sophie.
Sophie Vershbow (1:12:50)
Thanks, Rudi.

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